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Mr.Bookworm
2009-01-05, 10:03 PM
To make a long story short, I've been working on something for the past couple of weeks or so. It really doesn't deserve the title "campaign setting" yet, as right now it's more of an outline of a setting. But I digress.

In the setting, to cut out all of the extraneous background detail for why, gods are near universally hated. Being called a "god-lover" is on par with someone calling you a couple of the Seven Words You Can't Say on TV (you know which ones).

So, I was thinking. Humans, without getting anywhere near real world religion, have a natural tendency to turn to a higher power for comfort and support.

So in a universe where beings of divine origin are reviled, where would we turn to?

I was thinking of going with worship of ideals, but I'm still a little iffy on that.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

JMobius
2009-01-05, 10:07 PM
I would think that the reason they are reviled would have a pretty big impact on a meaningful answer.

Guildorn Tanaleth
2009-01-05, 10:10 PM
Humans would worship demagogues. Of course, those who don't follow a certain demagogue will accuse his followers of god-worship (even moreso if the demagogue is dead), which will eventually lead to nonstop wars between factions lead by demagogues who accuse each other of the same things.

Wait....

Mr.Bookworm
2009-01-05, 10:36 PM
I would think that the reason they are reviled would have a pretty big impact on a meaningful answer.

Gods created the universe. However, by changing things, they grew weaker, and also started to reflect the qualities of whatever they were making. When they created life, things were peachy at first. Then humans and company came along and introduced evil to the galaxy. Since creation got reflected in the gods, the gods, who at this point were about as "weak" as 100-level epic character, grew to reflect the worst qualities of every species, along with the best.

During this whole thing, gods were worshipped as in standard D&D. Eventually, however, the gods who had more evil than good in them started fighting, and it grew out of control. It was originally consigned to the gods themselves, but the worshippers started fighting too, leading to a World War situation. The good gods ended up fighting in self-defense, and eventually ended up almost as bad as the evil ones.

This raged on across the entire multiverse for a century or two. By then, the entire world was basically a battleground, large parts of it were wasteland from the magic being thrown around, and most of the people who didn't want to fight had relocated to another plane. Quite a few of the gods were dead, and most of the ones who were still alive were severely weakened.

On the other plane I mentioned, the leaders were a group of near-Tippy casters, who were also the ones who had brought everyone over. They had been quietly working on a spell and a plan for the last century or so, and put both into action. The spell, which had a hideous price that shall remain unsaid for now, basically reached out to every god in the multiverse, and flipped the little switch in their head, putting them into a coma (killing a god, incidentally, is something only another god can do). One of the casters and an army from the people on the other plane, went back to the home plane, and kicked ass and took names. It took a long, long time, but eventually, the world came back to relative peace.

That was maybe a millennium ago, and today gods are remembered as the beings that almost wrecked the universe from petty squabbling.

So, yeah. End long rambling summary.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-01-05, 10:45 PM
Honestly, I think people would start inventing their own gods, which would likely be very different in nature than the "real" gods. For example if the real gods are your typical D&D mishmash of Greek-like deities, people might start to practice ancestor worship, animism or monotheism.

TS

Squidmaster
2009-01-05, 10:46 PM
They could worship other, more powerful humans. ( probably spell-casters). that would probably mean having a bunch of weird little cults.

Mr.Bookworm
2009-01-05, 10:48 PM
Honestly, I think people would start inventing their own gods, which would likely be very different in nature than the "real" gods. For example if the real gods are your typical D&D mishmash of Greek-like deities, people might start to practice ancestor worship, animism or monotheism.

TS

Well, that is certainly a possibility, but I was thinking that after getting completely screwed over by the gods, people would be almost completely unwilling to place their trust in a divine being.

Though ancestor worship and animism could actually work quite nicely. I'll have to think about that.

Guildorn Tanaleth
2009-01-05, 10:48 PM
That was maybe a millennium ago, and today gods are remembered as the beings that almost wrecked the universe from petty squabbling.

Other than the potential physical difficulty for new gods to arise, why wouldn't mortals eventually worship different gods who were recognized as being distinct from the old ones? Plenty of real-world mythologies hold that the universe was once ruled by a race of cruel gods before their offspring killed them & took over. Surely some myths must have developed about how the wars ended by now.


Well, that is certainly a possibility, but I was thinking that after getting completely screwed over by the gods, people would be almost completely unwilling to place their trust in a divine being.

Why? It's never stopped them before.

Neek
2009-01-05, 10:57 PM
So, I was thinking. Humans, without getting anywhere near real world religion, have a natural tendency to turn to a higher power for comfort and support.

So in a universe where beings of divine origin are reviled, where would we turn to?

I was thinking of going with worship of ideals, but I'm still a little iffy on that.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

As if gods are the only force in the universe.

What about the spirits that a shaman speaks to, that inhabit every thing, living and inanimate? What about the legends of old, of concrete people who exemplified their kind? What about the sciences? Or the concepts held in the Tao. Or what Buddha had to say about existence.

It's possible to worship something other than a god. And they don't even need to be personified.

Riffington
2009-01-05, 10:59 PM
Sounds like they'd probably be worshipping the near-Tippy-casters. But that would be exactly like saying "you can only worship the gods, not the Titans"... no practical difference.

So why can't one worship those near-Tippy-casters?
a: everyone knows about the terrible price they have to pay on account of those casters, and reviles them too. In that case, people would have nobody to worship - they'd just follow powerful demagogues.

b: Those casters (or the main one who kicked the ass) insisted "do not worship anyone, lest this happen again. Instead, worship your ideal self." The Fountainhead might help you design that sort of religion, though of course you'll have to deviate from it in places.

c: nobody knows about the alternate plane - they just think it was a bunch of heroes who kicked collective divine ass. People would give extra respect to high-level characters, which could border on worship.

There are many other possibilities.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-05, 10:59 PM
I would imagine man would worship man. I mean, that's what communists did. They looked at their leader as a godlike idols. To communists, religion is just another ideology. With no gods to worship, some humans would step and take their role.

Mr.Bookworm
2009-01-05, 11:07 PM
Other than the potential physical difficulty for new gods to arise, why wouldn't mortals eventually worship different gods who were recognized as being distinct from the old ones? Plenty of real-world mythologies hold that the universe was once ruled by a race of cruel gods before their offspring killed them & took over. Surely some myths must have developed about how the wars ended by now.

It's fairly common knowledge about that cabal of wizards that ended it. It's been mythologized, true, but the base of the story is true, and there are still people around that are old enough to remember it.


Why? It's never stopped them before.

Okay, picture this. Your home country. Except as a smoking wasteland. You, incidentally, have been press-ganged into an army to fight people you used to be friends with from a nearby (different) smoking wasteland. Everyone you love is dead, and your world and everyone else alive is living hell in the truest sense of the phrase.

All of this in the name of a god you thought loved and protected you, who you put your faith in.

Even a thousand years after the fact, a lot of the world is still ruined from the war, and even in the most civilized, reclaimed areas, there are still signs of the war. A kid playing in the woods of a peaceful township could dig a little bit, and could find the rotted, rusted remains of weapons.

The war is omnipresent. It was like World War II, only a thousand times worse, and the scars from it still show.


They could worship other, more powerful humans. ( probably spell-casters). that would probably mean having a bunch of weird little cults.

Okay, to be clear, there are people who still worship gods (different gods then the ones who wrecked the universe, but still). They're just in the vast minority.

And quite a few people do worship some odd things. (For instance, there's a decently powerful cult who worships the wizards mentioned above)

EDIT:


As if gods are the only force in the universe.

What about the spirits that a shaman speaks to, that inhabit every thing, living and inanimate? What about the legends of old, of concrete people who exemplified their kind? What about the sciences? Or the concepts held in the Tao. Or what Buddha had to say about existence.

It's possible to worship something other than a god. And they don't even need to be personified.

That is an excellent point. Something does not need to be personified to be worshipped.

I must say, however, the more and more I think about it, the more I think I'll go with having no "main" form of worship. Some people worship the spirits of the land, while their neighbors pay their respects to their ancestors.

Thanks, all.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-01-05, 11:19 PM
Well, that is certainly a possibility, but I was thinking that after getting completely screwed over by the gods, people would be almost completely unwilling to place their trust in a divine being.

Though ancestor worship and animism could actually work quite nicely. I'll have to think about that.
Well people might very well begin to practice philosophies in a religious way, like Buddhism for example. Such philosophies would likely have many saint-like figures in their legends/mythologies.

Other than that, I think ancestor worship is the most likely alternative. If the first people were happy in their new utopian world, before the gods got evil, it'd be pretty natural for people to start worshipping the first people and the world before it started sucking. People do have a strong tendency to think of the olden days as "the good ol' times when everything was simple and good". Maybe call it "Gaia worship" or something.

TS

Dervag
2009-01-06, 12:35 AM
Well, that is certainly a possibility, but I was thinking that after getting completely screwed over by the gods, people would be almost completely unwilling to place their trust in a divine being.

Though ancestor worship and animism could actually work quite nicely. I'll have to think about that.Monotheism can work as a replacement for polytheism. The monotheist priests argue like this:

"The now-frozen lesser gods were bickering idiots. The great deity Yahu-Wahu is no such thing! We worship an abstract entity, one which has no interest in the petty feuds of the lesser gods. Indeed, our deity is the ultimate expression of [insert list of positive virtues here]."

This may or may not be true. But it's at least consistent with your theme of a society that has rejected its old deities.

Randel
2009-01-06, 01:15 AM
A few thoughts on the different people:

1. The people who still worship the gods despite what happened - the might recall old stories of how the gods were at first and choose to remember them as what they were instead of what they became. Or they could have just held onto their faith during the whole mess, praying to one of the good gods no matter what happened. These would be few and far between, possibly existing only as cults or whatnot. Humans don't need proof that a god exists to worship them as we can see in reality.

2. Those who worship people - They could become fanatics for powerful heros or just anyone who is able to step up to the plate to start a cult.

3. The Supermen - these people just worship themselves and their own endevors. They can see that there might be more powerful beings than themself or more popular ones, but they have faith in their own power and don't 'submit' themselves to anything else. (This could be derived from Objectivism or similar philosophies)

4. The faithless - these guys couldn't care less. They do what they have to do and don't care about philosophy.

5. Religious Athiests - These guys focus on concepts instead of looking to deities, pursuing a path of inner enlightenment over faith.

6. The Jokers - these guys are just criminally insane and do things for yucks. If they aspire to any philosphy its that the multiverse is a lava lamp of insanity and the only rational thing to do is to go crazy.

7. Pathseekers - look up the various sects and philosophies in Sigil, these guys choose one and pursue it.

8. Those who worship other stuff - since gods are apparently some sort of definable race, there could be alot of people who chose to cast their lot in with devils, demons, fey, undead, or abbirations or some sort for protection and worship. They might see this as better due to these others being 'closer to home'. Cultists might rever vampires or liches in the hopes of attaining immortality, some might worship the fey for their personalities, the devils and demons for power or protections, and abberations for whatever reason (enter Cthulhu cultists who plan to use the gibbering horrors of the Dungeon Dimensions to wash away physics).

mabriss lethe
2009-01-06, 01:40 AM
You might need to take a different tack if you want this to be plausible. many historical mythologies are chocked full of stories where the gods war amongst themselves, often spilling over into the mortal world. People still worshipped them.

Randel
2009-01-06, 02:45 AM
How about that instead of having 'good gods' or 'bad gods' you just have jerkass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VideoGameCrueltyPotential) gods (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=199)?

Remember that absolute power corrupts absolutely and divine beings are effectively born more powerful than the nastiest human dictator ever can become. If the gods aren't effectively burning people with giant magnifying glasses and conjuring up all those monsters, aberrations, magical anomalies and world destroying McGuffens up for laughs then really what are they doing?

Sure, they might toss a few miracles to help people and motivate them to send some faith to the gods, and that might make them more powerful... but then what do all the other humans think?

Effectivly, the gods are loose cannons of the worst kind, ready to build up huge civilizations and inspire great cities... just so its more hilarious when they send a Tarrasque running through main street! Any god no matter how 'good' or 'evil' people think they are is inevitably going to start causing mind-boggling mayhem on mortal civilizations just for kicks, and for the majority of humans who know how this all works will hunt down anyone who might be sending even a scrap of power to those gods up there!


Once the mages finally take the gods out of commision, they would probably start forming their own religions putting themselves as the heads of personality cults, carefully making sure that they or their successor don't accidentally imitate the looks and names of the sleeping gods and risk focusing that faith to them... thereby waking them up again.

Constant focus on the miracles and benefits of science, magic, and progress would hopefully keep the majority of the population focused away from the Gods and others might take an atheistic philosophy. Actual divine worshipers are hunted down more ruthlessly that devil worshipers since the greatest devil is less dangerous than the weakest god.

Satyr
2009-01-06, 03:03 AM
Worship and finding closure in religion is a convention, not an automatism. Religion is mostly a tradition and is kept alive through this; take away the reason for the worship or discredit not the object but the process of worship, and you end with a majority of people who will mostly find the religious convention rather absurd.

Tradition is for religious organisations more important than faith. You can have a fully working religious organisation with tremendous power where most of of the organisational cadres do not believe at all in their subject.

bosssmiley
2009-01-06, 04:53 AM
You'd see quasi-gnostic mystery cults rising, cell-based secretive organisations dedicated to freeing human souls from a universe controlled by the hated exoteric gods.

Of course, these personal and humanist mystery cults would have a tendency to slip into old religious forms (hierarchy, rote forms, inter-cult strife, intra-cult heresy hunts and witch trials, kool-aid drinking, scapegoating, etc.) thanks to inherent power lust, conformism, and the big sky pixie-shaped hole most humans have in their brains. :smallamused:

The Mormegil
2009-01-06, 05:28 AM
I think that the most likely solution would be to worship other gods. And not call them gods.

Animism and shamanism and ancestors and such are ok, but the plain old "superior being" could work as well, if you just say that it is, say, the Force. The Force is no god. It cannot be EVIL.

Or even, Pelor is no GOD, he's just a [insert name], a great ancient powerful spirit that grants spells to his worship--- er... his followers.

MickJay
2009-01-06, 07:24 AM
In case of Earth, using God was almost universally an excuse or rationalisation of war. War itself is bad enough for normal people to abhor it, so to get soldiers marching you need to give them a good reason to do so. When it was about survival of your tribe, no problem, but if some guy in a castle 200 miles away wants you to go 2000 miles and kill people you've never heard of before, he'll need to appeal to what you value and understand (be it God, safety of your family, an ideal or something else you consider to be a great good).

My ramblings aside, how about introducing a universal worship of humanity? It is a little like worshipping ideals and French Revolution "religion", but in this case you can explain how it is the very existenece of mankind that generates some sort of mystic vibrations which can be tapped in a manner resembling clerical spells.

Plus, what's been said before: belief in ancestors, various spirits, natural forces, personified values, or any mix of those could work.

Another_Poet
2009-01-06, 11:52 AM
I would definitely vote for Humanism. You asked where humans will turn for comfort and guidance and belief in something great. You didn't ask for a new set of gods, so "shamanistic spirits," "deified ancestors," etc seem off to me.

Humanism in the real world is essentially religion for atheists (and some agnostics and deists). It's a philosophic system that believes strongly in the amazing potential of the human race and most Humanists feel that we are better off looking out for ourselves than placing faith in some other, unknowable force. There is often a strong focus on humanitarian charity work as well as on cultivating the best moral values possible, but without threat of heaven/hell/judgement.

In recent years some Humanists have made the jump to outright religious practice. They have reverends who lead baby naming ceremonies, officiate at weddings and funerals, etc. Their theory for this is that humans feel better when they have formal occasions to mark major moments in their lives and traditions to gather the family around. They generally don't believe in a soul, afterlife or deity, they just get together as a community for moral support at those joyous and tragic events. Some even have weekly services which are very much like Unitarian services, a lot of philosophic talk and analysis of world traditions. Of course a humanist service is purely about intellectual/moral growth and includes no prayer or worship of any kind.

So, I think that's the best bet for the people in your campaign world. The humans, at least. It'd be cool to see variations for the different races. The Elven Philosophic Society, Orkism, Dwarven Clan-Keepers, WholeHalflings.org, and maybe choose a race that has gone completely atheistic - I vote gnomes for that one. Each race can have a tradition that emphasises the virtues and greatness of that race, while at the same time providing a support structure that nurtures its members. Well "nurture" might be the wrong word in Orkism.... but organising regular cage matches sounds like a valid Orcish spiritual activity to me, and would definitely bring the family together.

As the different groups emphasise the greatness of their respective races, competition and conflict would be inevitable. The rhetoric of Humanism (and similar) would enter into political speeches and patriotism. An age of heroic virtue + xenophobic fervour would set the stage for new adventures...

Also, I should point out that some branches of Buddhism are completely atheistic, and people can easily practice Taoism without without believing in invisible beings. So you could have religions more focused on a personal spiritual journey and less on worship, like those. I'd add those in right alongside Humanism, Orkism, etc. as sort of the "mystical" branch of atheistic religion, probably viewed with some suspicion and unfairly accused of god-loving by outsiders.

Telonius
2009-01-06, 01:00 PM
To make a long story short, I've been working on something for the past couple of weeks or so. It really doesn't deserve the title "campaign setting" yet, as right now it's more of an outline of a setting. But I digress.

In the setting, to cut out all of the extraneous background detail for why, gods are near universally hated. Being called a "god-lover" is on par with someone calling you a couple of the Seven Words You Can't Say on TV (you know which ones).

So, I was thinking. Humans, without getting anywhere near real world religion, have a natural tendency to turn to a higher power for comfort and support.

So in a universe where beings of divine origin are reviled, where would we turn to?

I was thinking of going with worship of ideals, but I'm still a little iffy on that.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

Ideals, philosophies, nations, tribes, sports teams, rock stars, and blatantly fictional characters.

Prometheus
2009-01-06, 01:12 PM
The scenario put forth is not a question of religion but rather of government. Think about how it is that people come to prefer no government or regional government and you will understand why they wanted to repulse the influence of the Gods. It would be essentially anarchism/libertarianism (depending on which side of the political spectrum it comes from).

The previous mentioned lists of are all good ideas (Another Poet is dead-on about the possibility for atheism and ritual, and Randel has a couple of ideas that mirror my own). I'll throw my own ideas into the hat, but first I suggest that you draw from a variety of philosophies, but that you keep the philosophies in your game distinct from real-world ones (as traditional D&D has done with religion). To expand your variety and the creative process of generating your own philosophies, I recommend associating some with other ideologies, such as those about government. Here are some ideas along that theme:

-Individualists: Individualists believe there is something intrinsically valuable about human decision making, in that it is indeterminate and free (in contrast to most RL atheists, who tend to believe free will is compatible with determinism). In particular however, they fight for the right of an individual to have whatever lifestyle they wish to have. They typically range from Neutral Good (encouraging democracy, development, and human rights everywhere) to Chaotic Neutral (anarchists and sympathizers of radicals) depending on which way they are politically involved (which is usually deeply so).

-Arcane Scientist: These individuals, as a group, don't have an opinion about God. Some are high or low mystics, other openly praise the cabal of wizards that took out the gods and ridicule the tribal gods. As a group, they turn to arcane magic (ie science) to solve the problems of humanity and even unlock a tangible answer to its deepest questions. Often they optimize for the good of all, but other times they are cold to humanity when it gets in the way of their work. In general, they are Lawful. If there is any mind-shattering, insanity-inducing, forbidden lore that smacks with hubris against the gods, than one of these guys finds it - mad scientist/alienist hilarity ensures.

-Wrathful: Whether these people go stir crazy from the lack of gods or are a manifestation of the sleeping gods wrath against humanity, they turn against everyone else. They are sociopathic, like Reavers. What is ironically clear, is the level of psychological dependence these people have on the idea of gods, even while seeming to act in defiance of any god that would Sheppard the world.

-Indifferent: A lot of people today have an answer to the question "What is your religion", but religion has no influence on their life decisions. They just act, normal. You see, even nihilists who believe all actions (including inaction) are equally useless have to find some means of preferring one to the other. So they do what they are ordinarily inclined. It doesn't make them particularly bad or good people, although there is a variety of personalities that make them that way.

-High Mystic: The people take the idea of an unfathomable, unreachable God to the extreme. If you ask them, it's the typical omnipresent, omnipotent, invisible God that works in mysterious ways (which is above the aforementioned gods). Given that, it doesn't take them much further than to assert that everything is divine, the universe is God, and we are all connected by a global consciousness. Other than this certainty in a universal comfort, they actually take a remarkably hands-off approach to everything else. They tend to be pacifists and relativists (certainly RL monotheists can feel like they aren't being stereotyped here).

-Low Mystic: These people rebooted the religion-forming process and started to begin again. Some of these people worship animistically, others come up with complicated myths of new gods, some are loyal to the old ones, and more still worship a powerful person or monster. These people tend to smart out small, but are quite successful in proliferating. It is an interesting campaign hook to have a region suddenly catch with a given tribalistic religion, and at least one "more civilized" society should adopt one of these and have it have a massive influence. If anyone has an opinion, these guys do. Occasionally, this means also adopting bizarre rules and rituals (Red is profane and Thursdays are sacred, no Red should be seen on Thursdays).

I'm not sure what you want to do with clerics in this setting, but as for spellcasters in general there was a piece of fluff proposed to explain Vancian casting a while ago that was well received. Essentially the world is animistic, in that everything has a spirit. Spells are little creatures made each day that use themselves up when that spell is cast (much like your aforementioned gods). For example a tiny baboon made out of fire burps a fireball for the first casting of it that day; runs in and explodes for the final casting.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-06, 01:23 PM
It doesn't make sense, nothing would make all humans hate gods ... they would just posit some higher deity who in time will save them.

MickJay
2009-01-06, 02:58 PM
It doesn't make sense, nothing would make all humans hate gods ... they would just posit some higher deity who in time will save them.

It would be very realistic to have at least a faction working on that principle, some sort of cult.

All this discussion reminded me of a WoD character who had the Real Faith trait; but since he was Malkavian (a bloodline of incurably insane vampires), his belief was in styrofoam. Just that, he didn't believe that styrofoam was something, he just believed in it. He could use e.g. a coffee cup as a focus for his belief and it would act as a cross would in the hands of a very devout Christian (according to the rules of the WoD, of course).

SurlySeraph
2009-01-06, 05:37 PM
I recommend having lots of little cults. Ancestor worship, animism, outsider (angel, demon, devil, whatever; a feud between worshippers of, say the archangel of death and the archangel of fertility would be pretty cool) worship, abberation worship (Ia Cthulu fhtagan!), wizard worship, magical artifact worship, hero worship, and everything else thatīs been suggested.


Monotheism can work as a replacement for polytheism. The monotheist priests argue like this:

"The now-frozen lesser gods were bickering idiots. The great deity Yahu-Wahu is no such thing! We worship an abstract entity, one which has no interest in the petty feuds of the lesser gods. Indeed, our deity is the ultimate expression of [insert list of positive virtues here]."

This may or may not be true. But it's at least consistent with your theme of a society that has rejected its old deities.

You read the Cartoon History of the Universe, didnīt you? Take 5 awesomeness points.

Coidzor
2009-01-06, 08:32 PM
God Emperor of Mankind is probably a good thing to look at, then.

The cult of Pythagoras is another place to look for inspiration. Say, cults that by searching through the lore and essence of the primeval lawfulness of the universe (say, by going to mechanus led near-tippy caster(s)) that they will discover truth or nirvana or whatever.

Maybe there's a cycle of reincarnation that people have keyed into, and so they have discovered that in escaping reincarnation, they find ultimate peace back within mother universe. Or leave the universe to form a new one ala Lord Ao.

Or maybe there's a particular ethical/moral philosophy that has taken on aspects of religion in the way it spreads through the lives of the people.