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Myou
2009-01-06, 09:11 AM
Hi, I'm creating a new class for a homebrew 3.5 game and I've got a few questions that I'm hoping you guys can answer for me to help me come up with an appropriate level of damage reduction for an ability.

The rules we're playing under are all the standard ones, but we don't use the massive damage rule.


1. How much damage does an unoptimised level 20 fighter normally deal with each attack?
2. What is the maximum he could deal?

3. How much damage does an optimised level 20 fighter normally deal with each attack?
4. What is the maximum he could deal?

3, 4, 5 & 6. The same questions with regards to rangers.

Crimson Avenger
2009-01-06, 09:26 AM
I guess it depends on what you call un-optimized. Do you mean a fghter with average stats (say a 13-15 STR) and no magical gear? Or someone with a 16 STR from a point buy and a belt of giant strength +4.

MOSTLY optimized

Half-Orc Fighter

20 STR
+5 for leveling
+5 Inherint bonus (Manual of Gainful Exercise)
+6 Enhancement bonus (Belt of Giant Strenth)

36 STR +18 bonus

and a +5 two-handed weapon

2d6+32 isn't shabby, but why stop there....

Monkey Grip to get a bigger weapon (size L)
Power Attack
Leap Attack
Shocktrooper
ect
ect
ad naseum

Burley
2009-01-06, 09:27 AM
Plant, Animal or Mineral?

Past that: If you're looking for DR, look at the Barbarian or the Warlock. They each get DR. Barbarian it's a flat DR 5/- at 20th, I believe. You probably should just stick to that train.

Myou
2009-01-06, 09:48 AM
I guess it depends on what you call un-optimized. Do you mean a fghter with average stats (say a 13-15 STR) and no magical gear? Or someone with a 16 STR from a point buy and a belt of giant strength +4.

MOSTLY optimized

Half-Orc Fighter

20 STR
+5 for leveling
+5 Inherint bonus (Manual of Gainful Exercise)
+6 Enhancement bonus (Belt of Giant Strenth)

36 STR +18 bonus

and a +5 two-handed weapon

2d6+32 isn't shabby, but why stop there....

Monkey Grip to get a bigger weapon (size L)
Power Attack
Leap Attack
Shocktrooper
ect
ect
ad naseum

Very helpful, thanks.

I guess I'm thinking of characters with the elite array, with unoptimised being just the basic stuff every player would do (i.e. buy a new sword when you have enough gold), and optimised being a character with the best feats for maximising damage etc. I'm just looking for a lower and upper limit for fighter ad ranger damage ranges really.

If you were to do everything possible to optimise the character, what sort of damage could he get then?


Plant, Animal or Mineral?

Past that: If you're looking for DR, look at the Barbarian or the Warlock. They each get DR. Barbarian it's a flat DR 5/- at 20th, I believe. You probably should just stick to that train.

Thing is, this is a high-powered solo campaign, and 5/- isn't really that great to begin with unless you're taking a lot of attacks per round.

Person_Man
2009-01-06, 09:56 AM
1. Weapon + Str*1.5 + magical weapon enhancement + magical weapon enchantments + Power Attack + misc feats

So 1d8 + 9ish + 5 + 5d6ish + 40 + 6ish = 82 average damage per attack, with 5-8 attacks per round (4 base, 1 Speed, 2-4 attacks of opportunity).

2. HAHAHAHAH!!!! Somewhere in the tens of thousands, with the right magic and plenty of time to buff.

3. An optimized build would never take 20 levels of Fighter. But if for some reason you did go Fighter 20, you could easily kill a Tarrasque with one attack. Also keep in mind that at that level, anyone can use Use Magic Device effectively, and you're no doubt partying with casters. So any spell is potentially open to you, if you're willing to pay for it.

Battle Jump * Headlong Rush * Valorous Weapon Enhancement * (Weapon + Str*1.5 + magical weapon enhancement + Leap Attack) = 5(1d8 + 5 + 10 + 80) = 398. Get Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4551066&postcount=16) somehow, and you're set.

4. Rangers are the same deal. They get fewer bonus feats (which doesn't really matter at level 20), but the same basic numbers apply. More attacks, poorer Power Attack, more costly equipment (since you need to buy 2 magic weapons).

Myou
2009-01-06, 10:10 AM
1. Weapon + Str*1.5 + magical weapon enhancement + magical weapon enchantments + Power Attack + misc feats

So 1d8 + 9ish + 5 + 5d6ish + 40 + 6ish = 82 average damage per attack, with 5-8 attacks per round (4 base, 1 Speed, 2-4 attacks of opportunity).

2. HAHAHAHAH!!!! Somewhere in the tens of thousands, with the right magic and plenty of time to buff.

3. An optimized build would never take 20 levels of Fighter. But if for some reason you did go Fighter 20, you could easily kill a Tarrasque with one attack. Also keep in mind that at that level, anyone can use Use Magic Device effectively, and you're no doubt partying with casters. So any spell is potentially open to you, if you're willing to pay for it.

Battle Jump * Headlong Rush * Valorous Weapon Enhancement * (Weapon + Str*1.5 + magical weapon enhancement + Leap Attack) = 5(1d8 + 5 + 10 + 80) = 398. Get Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4551066&postcount=16) somehow, and you're set.

4. Rangers are the same deal. They get fewer bonus feats (which doesn't really matter at level 20), but the same basic numbers apply. More attacks, poorer Power Attack, more costly equipment (since you need to buy 2 magic weapons).

Well, that's pretty insane. xD

Thanks for the info, I'm starting to wonder why barbarian's even bother to record their 5/- in their character sheet. Does truely optimised melee combat at level 20 just come down to who strikes first?

Douglas
2009-01-06, 10:17 AM
Not always. It isn't as common, but it is quite possible to build effective characters with sufficient defenses to (sometimes) survive such attacks, and nothing makes a standard Ubercharger cry quite like Elusive Target negating all his Power Attack damage.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 10:24 AM
1. Weapon + Str*1.5 + magical weapon enhancement + magical weapon enchantments + Power Attack + misc feats

So 1d8 + 9ish + 5 + 5d6ish + 40 + 6ish = 82 average damage per attack, with 5-8 attacks per round (4 base, 1 Speed, 2-4 attacks of opportunity).

Assuming maximum Power Attack is a bit, you know, silly, since whether that increases or decreases average damage is dependent on the AC of the target.

Douglas
2009-01-06, 10:29 AM
Assuming maximum Power Attack is a bit, you know, silly, since whether that increases or decreases average damage is dependent on the AC of the target.
Not when you have Shock Trooper to divert the penalty to your AC instead. Sure, you'll be easier to hit than the broad side of a barn afterwards, but you don't expect the target to still be alive to be able to take advantage of that. Also, since we're talking about Fighters, you have plenty of feats to toss in Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, and Combat Reflexes, making attacking you before your next turn rather suicidal because you'd hit back - twice - with the same ridiculous damage bonus still at full attack bonus.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 10:36 AM
That's all incredibly situational. If you're facing any number of ranged attackers, you won't be dropping your AC like that no matter what.

Further, ignoring the attack bonuses screws up any calculation involving iterative attacks.

And I thought #1 was unoptimized.

Telonius
2009-01-06, 10:49 AM
That optimization was for maximum damage, not for AC or well-roundedness. Though if he is facing a pack of archers, he still has the option of not putting all of his power attack into a penalty to AC. The operative word in the Shock Trooper feat description is "may" (not "must" or "do").

This does bring up another point, though - maximum damage on a charge attack is going to be very different from maximum damage on a regular full attack.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 11:02 AM
Well, the real point is that maximum damage is completely irrelevant - average damage is what you should be looking at. Attack bonus is really important.

Douglas
2009-01-06, 11:16 AM
Right, and there are plenty of builds on the CharOp boards with average damage in the tens of thousands, with absurdly high attack bonuses at the same time.

Yes, if you are facing a large group of significantly powerful archers then dumping all your AC into Shock Trooper Power Attacks can be a bad idea, but that is a very rare situation in D&D in my experience. Most of the time in a typical D&D campaign you will be facing small groups of predominantly melee and spellcasting opponents. The casters won't care much about your AC, they'd probably hit it anyway if they actually use spells that have attack rolls, and the meleers provoke AoOs every time they attack you. Ranged attackers that do not attack touch AC and actually have significant damage output are the main threat that could make Shock Trooper a bad idea, and they are rare. It is much harder to get decent damage output from a bow than in melee, and most monsters are primarily melee.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 11:22 AM
Right, and there are plenty of builds on the CharOp boards with average damage in the tens of thousands, with absurdly high attack bonuses at the same time.

What does that have to do with anything?

Person_Man was posing a suggestion for the damage of an unoptimized fighter, and completely ignored the fact that said unoptimized fighter will not be power attacking for the full 20 all the time.

Douglas
2009-01-06, 11:26 AM
Oops, sorry, I missed that you were talking about the unoptimized one and that it included maximum Power Attack. Yes, without high optimization full Power Attack is generally a very stupid thing to do.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-06, 11:57 AM
36 STR +18 bonus

Just a minor correction, but a 36 STR is a +13 bonus, not +18.

Person_Man
2009-01-06, 12:30 PM
Try the Knight, Psychic Warrior, or any Tome of Battle class. IMO, your goal is to be strong but not ridiculous, with a wide variety of tactical options. That way combat is fun, but your DM isn't forced to pull out crazy stuff to balance things against you.

Eldariel
2009-01-06, 12:34 PM
Just a minor correction, but a 36 STR is a +13 bonus, not +18.

+19 to damage though, which is what he was after I reckon (especially since that was the question).

Myou
2009-01-06, 02:04 PM
Not always. It isn't as common, but it is quite possible to build effective characters with sufficient defenses to (sometimes) survive such attacks, and nothing makes a standard Ubercharger cry quite like Elusive Target negating all his Power Attack damage.

Elusive Target? Where is that one from?


That's all incredibly situational. If you're facing any number of ranged attackers, you won't be dropping your AC like that no matter what.

Further, ignoring the attack bonuses screws up any calculation involving iterative attacks.

And I thought #1 was unoptimized.

It is situational, but I want it to be, I just want to kow about the maximum damage a fighter (and a ranger) can deal with their best attack, further attacks aren't important.

1 is meant to be the unoptimised norm, 2 the unoptimised maxiumum. but the numbers are purely for convenience.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 02:38 PM
Elusive Target is from Complete Warrior, just like Shock Trooper. Whether either is optimization or bare minimums depends on your point of view, I suppose...

Douglas
2009-01-06, 02:40 PM
Elusive Target? Where is that one from?
Complete Warrior tactical feat. Requires Dodge, among other things, and one of its benefits is that if your Dodge target uses Power Attack against you he does not get the bonus damage against you but still takes whatever penalty he chose.

Myou
2009-01-06, 02:54 PM
Complete Warrior tactical feat. Requires Dodge, among other things, and one of its benefits is that if your Dodge target uses Power Attack against you he does not get the bonus damage against you but still takes whatever penalty he chose.

Ah, excellent, thanks guys.