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Surgoshan
2009-01-06, 09:47 AM
So I'm a middle school teacher and they've been asking us to volunteer to run week-long programs. As I understand it, a good portion of the purpose of the program is to get the kids out of the house for three hours a day, giving their parents some peace. If it happens to meet educational goals, so much the better!*

So I'm wondering if D&D could work for the preteen crowd. The main issues/solutions as I see them.

1) They're kids.
1)a) Okay, they can't sit still for two long without going stir-crazy and getting hungry. Having snacks available helps with one and standing up every once in a while, walking around, helps with the other. Maybe even some pseudo-larping their most dramatic moves.
1)b) A deep, involved story isn't going to work. They're probably not going to roleplay much, either. But a nice simple morality tale with themselves as the Fellowship of the Ring could work wonders. And if there's plenty of combat and a minimum of negotiation, they might could enjoy it.

2) I'm in the South.
2)a) And it's a private school. But, hey, it's a pretty liberal private school and in this day and age, does anyone really believe that D&D leads to devil worship and suicide?

3) It's three hours a day for five days.
3)a) If the kids co-operate, that could be like 15 gaming sessions. Probably somewhere between 10-15. That could see them from first level to fifth easy. Maybe more if I fudge things. Of course, it's also a heck of a lot of time to get kids to sit there and focus. They could burn out but quick.

Any other problems? Solutions? (getting more dice isn't a problem) Is this really feasible with a group of preteens?

* For example, when I mentioned that my two main hobbies are video games and reading, and deprecated that as a camp idea, the lady running it said, 'No, they could do summer reading for an hour then have a videogame tournament for two.' I was... dumbfounded.

Blackfang108
2009-01-06, 09:51 AM
3a - not happening.

also, unless you want to end up VERY disturbed, don't let the kids play an evil alignment.

Kids can show you sides of Evil you never knew existed.

Edit: Also, come with premade character sheets for whatever level you plan on playing. This will cut down on the set-up time.

Also, RE: educational goals, D&D is good for developing both sides of the brain. Imagination and creativity on one side, and Math (attack/Damage) and reasoning on the other.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 09:56 AM
Kids ages 10+ are perfectly capable of playing RPGs - I should know, I and my friends started at 10. Just avoid rules-heavy games. (We got the rules on everything except Basic D&D wrong, although the games remained completely playable and were a great deal of fun. It just resulted in stuff like killing Sauron from the Lords of Middle-Earth sourcebook in melee at level 10 in MERP.)

Breaking for food, drink, and moving around is absolutely necessary, though. (Then again, older players need that too; we're just more able to stupidly ignore our bodies and abuse them by sitting down for 8 hours straight and not eating.)

Screw morality tales, though. All we were interested in was killing orcs and dragons, and messing with each other. Almost any pre-existing module will probably work - we got through all available D&D modules, and used several MERP ones.

I also seem to remember playing MERP with my friends in school on some sort of game-day. Went well.

And you're the only one who can know how well RPGs will go over at your school or with the kids' parents. {Scrubbed}

Edit: Oh yeah, definitely second pre-made PCs. Maybe make twice the number of players, all somewhat different types (two different kinds of fighters, etc.). You definitely want to skip character creation. Just put the different character types up for grabs. This also lets you work the PCs into the adventures on a slightly deeper level.

Heliomance
2009-01-06, 10:33 AM
{Scrubbed}


I take rather large amounts of offense at that statement. Kindly retract it.

Telonius
2009-01-06, 10:39 AM
Ditto on the premade characters. Work out all the boring stuff (like generating skills, will saves, etc) beforehand or leave it out altogether.

Note, though: do not premake any of the fluff. Let the kids fill in the character descriptions. Give them very basic descriptions and let them go. Tell them something like: "This girl is a sorcerer who likes to cast fireballs. This guy is a sorcerer who likes to disguise himself. This halfling is a sneaky thief. This halfling is a great acrobat. This elf likes to fight with a bow. This dwarf is a knight in shining armor." Not much more than that.

I'd suggest Sorcerers over Wizards. Leave Druids out of it. Animal companions and familiars might be too much for them to handle first time out. Leave alignment out of it as much as you can. Depending on the crowd, leave out half-orcs and/or half-elves.

Clerics might be your biggest sticking point. If religion is really an issue, I would rename them "Healers" and remove the deity fluff.

toasty
2009-01-06, 10:42 AM
{Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}

Go for it. Kids won't understand the rules, yes, but if you don't mind doing most of the rules work, and they have the patience to learn about all their moves and maybe pick a few feats and such out then I think the game will be fun.

And yes, keep it simple: Your village asked you to kill some goblins, so you are now killing goblins.

Goblins, then some orcs... throw in a dragon or something. The plot can be nonexistant so long as everyone has fun.

I think you should have an evil character. :smallamused: just don't tell the parents. It might get you in trouble. :D

Weezer
2009-01-06, 10:43 AM
I think there at least capable of it, I taught my self and my younger brother how to play dnd when I was 12 and he was 9, so its possible. Your major problem will be to keep them from getting distracted, a problem that can be almost insurmountable depending on the children in question.

Douglas
2009-01-06, 10:46 AM
does anyone really believe that D&D leads to devil worship and suicide?
Some people still do, but I think it's less common than it used to be and most of those people are willfully ignorant on the subject. If it really is a "liberal" school I wouldn't expect any problems, but you should probably make sure to get parental approval for the kids involved anyway.

DrizztFan24
2009-01-06, 10:47 AM
So I'm wondering if D&D could work for the preteen crowd. The main issues/solutions as I see them.

1) They're kids. Just keep the intrigue low
1)a) Okay, they can't sit still for two long without going stir-crazy and getting hungry. Having snacks available helps with one and standing up every once in a while, walking around, helps with the other. Maybe even some pseudo-larping their most dramatic moves. True, and remember the rule of cool shoudl apply often
1)b) A deep, involved story isn't going to work. They're probably not going to roleplay much, either. But a nice simple morality tale with themselves as the Fellowship of the Ring could work wonders. And if there's plenty of combat and a minimum of negotiation, they might could enjoy it. But remember that you still may need a clue bat

2) I'm in the South. Uhhhh....failing to see the issue
2)a) And it's a private school. But, hey, it's a pretty liberal private school and in this day and age, does anyone really believe that D&D leads to devil worship and suicide? Only fools believe that, NOT anyone with a religion! :smallmad:. If issues truly show up invite the nonbelievers to a session or three and explain how the whole RPG conept works.

3) It's three hours a day for five days. Stretching needed
3)a) If the kids co-operate, that could be like 15 gaming sessions. Probably somewhere between 10-15. That could see them from first level to fifth easy. Maybe more if I fudge things. Of course, it's also a heck of a lot of time to get kids to sit there and focus. They could burn out but quick.
Yea, if you wanna go that long I suggest paying attention to player interests and tailoring a bit to them

Kiero
2009-01-06, 10:47 AM
Go for it. Kids won't understand the rules, yes, but if you don't mind doing most of the rules work, and they have the patience to learn about all their moves and maybe pick a few feats and such out then I think the game will be fun.

Not necessarily true. Depending on the child in question, they may actually be better equipped to grasp these things than adults can. Especially as you get towards the top end of the age range the OP mentioned.

Otherwise I'd strongly recommend having a whole host of pregens on hand. Even if you don't use them, they're useful examples for everyone to see how a character fits together.

Triaxx
2009-01-06, 10:50 AM
Yoda: If value your sanity you do, bring calculators you must.

---

D&D shouldn't be too hard, though you might end up using 4e, since 3.x tends towards the obsessively complex.

lisiecki
2009-01-06, 10:50 AM
(Then again, older players need that too; we're just more able to stupidly ignore our bodies and abuse them by sitting down for 8 hours straight and not eating.)


You mean the spells in the book Arn't REAL?

And, 60 years from now, there aint gonna be no elves with computers in there brains
my mind is blown
BLOWN

on a more serious note
WTF yo?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 10:57 AM
You mean the spells in the book Arn't REAL?

And, 60 years from now, there aint gonna be no elves with computers in there brains
my mind is blown
BLOWN

on a more serious note
WTF yo?

Is this some kind of delicious meta-irony I'm not getting?

To answer your question (maybe? was there a question), yes, I think older players need to take breaks while gaming - get up, stretch their legs, catch some air (or have a smoke), eat, and so on. It's usually better to just take a break than to try to fit these in while continuing to play.

lisiecki
2009-01-06, 11:07 AM
Is this some kind of delicious meta-irony I'm not getting?To answer your question (maybe? was there a question), yes, I think older players need to take breaks while gaming - get up, stretch their legs, catch some air (or have a smoke), eat, and so on. It's usually better to just take a break than to try to fit these in while continuing to play.

Hmm?

No not really. I'm just trying to make this all make sense.
{Scrubbed}

What I'm trying to figure out, is, if I believe that DandD is inherently evil, what is my standing on Shadowrun? Do i believe the information sourced in there is real as well?
If i do, then that means I believe that Israel nuked Libya and that there is a Japanese Imperial State?

Also what IS my view on magic, do i believe that Shadowrun magic is real as well?
Because the two are rather exclusive.

You pointed out that im dumb, im just trying to figure out how dumb i am.
Please, tell me how to think

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 11:11 AM
Okay, so why did you quote this part?


(Then again, older players need that too; we're just more able to stupidly ignore our bodies and abuse them by sitting down for 8 hours straight and not eating.)

I guess that kinda answers your question.

lisiecki
2009-01-06, 11:15 AM
Okay, so why did you quote this part?



I guess that kinda answers your question.

Its true. I am a moron.

Tell me how to think, tell me how to love, tell me how to live.

Because, the fact that you beleve something other than i do, makes me inferior to you.

The fact that i believe in a higher power, and you dont, makes me inferrior.

Although i am quite curious as to if i Belem in shadow run is real, and also if i believe that cyberpunk 2020 is real.
And if i do believe there both real, how do i justify that, is that just me getting dumber, or is that a mental break down on my part?

Dervag
2009-01-06, 11:16 AM
So I'm a middle school teacher and they've been asking us to volunteer to run week-long programs. As I understand it, a good portion of the purpose of the program is to get the kids out of the house for three hours a day, giving their parents some peace. If it happens to meet educational goals, so much the better!*

So I'm wondering if D&D could work for the preteen crowd. The main issues/solutions as I see them.Worked for me, within reason.


1) They're kids.
1)a) Okay, they can't sit still for two long without going stir-crazy and getting hungry. Having snacks available helps with one and standing up every once in a while, walking around, helps with the other. Maybe even some pseudo-larping their most dramatic moves.
1)b) A deep, involved story isn't going to work. They're probably not going to roleplay much, either. But a nice simple morality tale with themselves as the Fellowship of the Ring could work wonders. And if there's plenty of combat and a minimum of negotiation, they might could enjoy it.It can definitely be done. You're probably better at herding proto-adolescents than I am, so you'll probably have a better feel for how to do it. But my father ran a campaign with me and my brother for a while, and it was reasonably fun.

Do you intend to DM, or to delegate that to the kids with yourself as a sort of meta-moderator?


2) I'm in the South.
2)a) And it's a private school. But, hey, it's a pretty liberal private school and in this day and age, does anyone really believe that D&D leads to devil worship and suicide?Some. You'd be well advised to poll the parents, I think. While the risk of crossing a self-righteous idiot may be low, the cost of doing so is probably high.


Any other problems? Solutions? (getting more dice isn't a problem) Is this really feasible with a group of preteens?It depends on how many preteens you're working with. I think you can do it if you're not talking about dozens and dozens of the kids.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 11:19 AM
Tell me how to think, tell me how to love, tell me how to live.

The irony, it is wonderful!

lisiecki
2009-01-06, 11:21 AM
The irony, it is wonderful!

What irony?

You are smarter than me.
It would seem that, if nothing else, I am smart enough to accept that.


Any ways, how about the Shadowrun V CP 2020 question?

hamishspence
2009-01-06, 11:24 AM
while there is the "confused about what's real and what's not" accusation made at the game, it can really apply to any game, not just D&D.

either that, or people use the "too much playing the game" as a plea on their defense case, when the boardgame or videogame accused of contributing to the crime had very little to do with it.

LibraryOgre
2009-01-06, 12:18 PM
First, I would suggest using something other than D&D; there are a lot of negative stereotypes associated with that name that it's easier not to deal with. Even if you go with Labyrinth Lord or Osric or some other retro-clone of classic D&D, you avoid a LOT of the negative baggage you'd have to deal with in calling your game D&D.

If you go with D&D, go with an edition other than 3.5. While simple at its heart, it's a fairly complex game in all its glory, making it less suited to short games with newbies. Even 4e, IMO, is a bit fiddly for newbies, unless you've got several experienced players to prop them up.

Overall, I would suggest something like Labryinth Lord or Osric. The kids can look up the rules on their own, for free, if they want to, and you can acquire some cheap used books to run the game. They're also very easy in terms of DM set-up, especially if you go with published modules. I'm going to proceed with the assumption that you've done this.

Pre-make characters; about 150%-200% of the number of game slots you have open so everyone gets a choice. Leave no one in the position to play the only character left. They may not get their first or second choice, but they have a choice.

Don't think of this as 15 one hour sessions; think of it as five three-hour sessions. If the administration is making you run 3 one hour sessions, see if you can talk them into an exception... if you're enthusiastic about this, and can make it a semi-permanent club, they may like it.

Simple plots, and emphasize the usefulness of talking, and the downsides of acting stupidly. Have someone approach them with a white flag, see how they react. Come across wounded bad guys. If someone kills a townsperson, make the guards show up, and make the guards capable of taking care of their low-level butts. They're not playing GTA... there are consequences to illegal behavior. This doesn't mean they don't get to fight, but make them realize that it's not always the prime option.

For something like this, I suggest two classic modules: One is T1, the Village of Hommlet. It's crammed with side-quest options and detailed characters. The other is B2, Keep on the Borderlands. Like T1, it's crammed with options, but it requires a bit more individual initiative (in that there are several unrelated things the characters can be doing). N2, Under Illefarn, is also good, and you can encourage kids to read Forgotten Realms novels, too.

PM me if you want more advice; I've done this before, and in my previous life, I was a high school/middle school teacher.

BrainFreeze
2009-01-06, 12:21 PM
While I wouldn't call the fact that anyone has a religion a bad thing, thats your own choice, and your entitled to it. But the possibility exist that a parent will get their panties in a twist because your hosting a D&D game at the school for their children. I would suggest permission slips to play, because while there may not be a problem, the public outcry if there is a problem will be large.

Last_resort_33
2009-01-06, 12:29 PM
Here's a piece of advice which the strategist gamers will hate but I feel is very important to a starting group.

Although it is perfectly possible to create an interesting, powerful and fun to play cleric/healer/buffer, it is NOT fun for newbies/kids.

I strongly suggest either giving them a shed load of healing potions (that's what I'd do) , OR having an NPC, DMPC or experienced player cleric go with them. If you're playing 4th ed then the same if you're planning to go have a warlord.

In 3.5 I would suggest limiting players to the following

Fighter
Paladin
Sorcerer
Rogue
Ranger
Barbarian

If using 4e then just strip out the leaders, they can be dull for inexperienced players.

Roland St. Jude
2009-01-06, 12:42 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please leave the religious discussion at the door. It's not an appropriate topic here - not even when it intersects with a gaming topic.

RebelRogue
2009-01-06, 12:59 PM
If using 4e then just strip out the leaders, they can be dull for inexperienced players.
4e Leaders work much better for kids, as the healing powers are now minor actions, meaning they can heal and kick some butt at the same time. I've still seen a few who thought leading sounded cool, but missed the point that leading meant "helping the other players shine", but that's another thing.

Also, be aware that play will move rather slowly in my experience (a few years of doing this as my primary work). Even if you railroad heavily (which most of the time you will need to do).

Deastorm
2009-01-06, 01:43 PM
What irony?

You are smarter than me.
It would seem that, if nothing else, I am smart enough to accept that.


Any ways, how about the Shadowrun V CP 2020 question?

Do you martyr yourself in every thread, or just the ones I read with you in it? :smallmad:

Regarding OP, I grew up in the south (north Texas), and we tried an afterschool D&D program. It never had a chance, the admin and schoolboard said it had nothing to do with school, and refused any of our evidence to the contrary. Small town of 8,000 in late 90's, for reference. I would love to hear of someone having better success!

Blackfang108
2009-01-06, 02:18 PM
4e Leaders work much better for kids, as the healing powers are now minor actions, meaning they can heal and kick some butt at the same time. I've still seen a few who thought leading sounded cool, but missed the point that leading meant "helping the other players shine", but that's another thing.

Also, be aware that play will move rather slowly in my experience (a few years of doing this as my primary work). Even if you railroad heavily (which most of the time you will need to do).

I second this statement. There will be someone who likes helping out the team, even among kids.

Just stop them if a Warlord starts quoting Full Metal Jacket.

DrizztFan24
2009-01-06, 02:40 PM
What about if the sorceror uses transmute spells and starts quoting Fullmetal Alchemist?

Medic
2009-01-06, 02:59 PM
They will more than capable of playing...

However I suggest that you make "modules" more roleplay and less dice and numbers.

For an example you might see if you can swing a copy of "Gifts of the Fey" from Wizards site (A year one Living Greyhawk module).

Nearly 0 combat with a lot of roleplaying. As you get them more interested in the story line you can add combat but remain focus on the story.

You might even find one of them that is min/max type by nature so don't be afraid to nuture that.

Fixer
2009-01-06, 03:03 PM
2) I'm in the South.
2)a) And it's a private school. But, hey, it's a pretty liberal private school and in this day and age, does anyone really believe that D&D leads to devil worship and suicide?
I am in the South too, and yes there are people who believe it leads to all sorts of BS. Most recently I encountered it with a mid-30s woman, a somewhere-around-50 woman, and a preacher-man. They immediately closed their ears when I tried to explain the fallacy but insisted on telling me how my soul was condemned to Hell and how I should repent... etc.

I wouldn't think this would be a good idea without the Principal, most of the staff, and the local clergy all in on it beforehand.

EDIT: My nephew's dad, who I have known since high school and he married (and divorced) my sister was highly reluctant to the idea of his son playing D&D. So we are playing Pathfinder instead. ;)

only1doug
2009-01-06, 03:16 PM
I ran a game for my nephews (9 & 11) they have no problem playing for 3+ hours at a time.

The characters are a "wizard" (really a sorcerer but called a wizard) and a rogue, there are 2 NPC's, a fighter and a cleric who are nominally their younger siblings characters (3 & 6). Given a standard sized party (4-6 players) you could probably have a good game.

For your game I would recommend pre-generating 5th+ level characters and plenty of them (if you make 20 characters then the 6 players will have ample choice), plan for 1 hour sessions but leave space for expanding them to 3hrs if the players are interested enough.

Bonecrusher Doc
2009-01-06, 03:39 PM
No way would I do D&D with other people's kids without a permission slip. I mean, some parents are vehemently against their kids reading Harry Potter books. Perhaps informing the parents that if they go to the local bookstore they can flip through the Player's Handbook to decide if they feel it's appropriate for their kids. Deities and magic aside, they might feel that their kid is so immature and with such bad impulse control and grasp of reality versus pretend that they wouldn't want their kid to play ANY rpg's. I mean, you do kill people in D&D. Most people understand that's not how the real world works, but, you know.

Perhaps a more traditional "board game" like HeroQuest would be more acceptable. Or you would have to find/homebrew a completely sanitized version if you want it to be acceptable to everyone: no magic of any kind, only killing animals and not intelligent creatures. You could call it something creative, hmm, how about, "Oregon Trail?"


DM: You failed your "Craft: Wagon Wheel" check. You are stuck at Chimney Rock for three more days.

Actually, as an aside (not to hijack the thread) perhaps somebody out there knows of such a "politically correct" RPG that exists? I would be very interested to look at it. But still, even a "sanitized" version of D&D - I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole because of the potential hoopla - you could even lose your job.

Darth Stabber
2009-01-06, 03:43 PM
For the young ones I would recomend Warlock as opposed to other arcane casters, were it not for the fluff involved. I've GM'd for people(not 11-13, but that was their approximate mentality) who don't play casters @ at all, because they want no truck with managing their resources. But I would recommend 4e over 3.5. Everyone's abilities work approximately the same. Don't underestimate the leader classes with the youth either, I started playing @ 14 and my second character was a Cleric and I loved it (My first was a bard in 2e, Yeah I qualified for bard on 3d6 in order for my first character ever, big whoop whanna fight about it). And now that the healing stuff is all on minor actions you can be kicking som serious butt and keep folks HP up. And if you are avoiding religious stuff, in 4e you can easily remove paladins and clerics and not miss anything important.

Satyr
2009-01-06, 05:32 PM
Why don't you make it a part of the educational cycle to make certain stuff more understandabe for the kids? I am a teacher in spe, when I took one of the here obligatory internships in school, I ran a roleplaying game with a class for a week (history; it was about the treaty of Versailles, the class was divided into different factions according to the different countries involved in the First World War and had the task to negotiate the results of the war. I never thought how much them got into the whole thing, but it was not only entertaining, it was also educating. It was so succesful that I had to develop another one, this time for my co-students (this time it was groups of influence in a banana republic).

It is much easier to include something like this in school if it had at least a resemblance to education. And "evil" roleplaying games are seen in a completely different light if they are presented as a simulation game to emulate the different sets of mind in a complex stressful situation to playfully train the interaction between different social actors and a potentially perilious environment or something like this. Much lies in a name and all that.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-06, 05:44 PM
Some people still do, but I think it's less common than it used to be and most of those people are willfully ignorant on the subject.

Yes, but as some others have said, I still HIGHLY suggest you get permission slips from the kids. It's ridiculous some of the crap teachers can get in trouble for nowadays, I know, but when one's job might be on the line, being cautious cannot hurt. Heck, I live in a very liberal town and am quite liberal myself and one of my friend's parents forbid her from playing D&D with me.


No way would I do D&D with other people's kids without a permission slip.

Or you would have to find/homebrew a completely sanitized version if you want it to be acceptable to everyone: no magic of any kind, only killing animals and not intelligent creatures. You could call it something creative, hmm, how about, "Oregon Trail?"

But still, even a "sanitized" version of D&D - I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole because of the potential hoopla - you could even lose your job.

Ah, yes, here we are. I edited this down a bit, but this is what I'd like to focus on.

First point: As I said, heck yes.

Second point: I agree; homebrew up a sanitized version. Honestly, even animals you'd get crap for, considering some people nowadays. I'd suggest dragons. Yes, they are arguably overused, but kids love 'em and almost no one has any objections to them. They don't have any alleged satanic tie, nor can they be found in the real world, nor are they "too scary," nor otherwise objectionable.

Third point: That's what the permission slip is for. Make sure it is very clear and encourage parents to call you if they've questions or anything. Actually, maybe it'd be wise to consult a fellow teacher for advice. They'd know more about what would fly and what would cause a hubbub more than 98% of us here!

Best of luck; sorry if this is lengthy and mildly depressing. :smallsmile:

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 05:48 PM
Y'all can't be serious.

Killing enemies in a game is perfectly fine for kids of 11+. Harry Potter, Narnia, etc. all include it. (And good characters dying, too.) "Kids can't deal with death" is a load of crap. Heck, kids love violent shows and movies. (And are, as a rule, too smart to tell their parents about them.)

The Neoclassic
2009-01-06, 05:53 PM
Y'all can't be serious.

Killing enemies in a game is perfectly fine for kids of 11+. Harry Potter, Narnia, etc. all include it. (And good characters dying, too.) "Kids can't deal with death" is a load of crap. Heck, kids love violent shows and movies. (And are, as a rule, too smart to tell their parents about them.)

I think (OK, I skimmed some people's posts, so I may be incorrect, I admit now) that it is more an issue of what their parents think rather than what the kids can actually handle. Parents can be unreasonable, but this isn't the situation in which to point that our or their hypocrisy (since, as you say, many popular children's books have violence and death).

Also, some kids do tell their parents about a lot. Accidentally or ignorantly or purposefully, some kid will tell some parent something. So trying to hide anything is just begging for disaster. If we were talking about sixteen year olds, it might be different (note: might), but here I would most certainly not rely on that.

edcalaban
2009-01-06, 06:24 PM
You could try Risus. It's simple, easy to play, and can be hilarious. Best of all: it's FREE. Oh, and the rules are some five or so pages long. And you can twist it to just about any setting you can conceive.

Risus website (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm)

Egiam
2009-01-06, 06:47 PM
I second (or third, or fourth) the permmision slip idea. I've already had 3 players either leave or not join in my group for these reasons. Better safe then sorry. If DND is on the mind, go for the 4th ed. Starter Kit.
I would investigate rules-lite systems (fudge, risus) before commiting to DND.

Lupy
2009-01-06, 07:34 PM
I DM for my friends, and we are all in middle school, except for my elementary school brother. We play 4e without any rules trouble at all, but that may be because when I made the characters I described the campaign world to them and asked who their character was, then made him. It took me about ten minutes to explain the basic rules (Abilities, skills, damage, and powers), and then I told them other things when they came up. We've had a blast so far, and I highly recommend it. You might want to try the starter set for ease of setup and even less rules to learn, but definitely ask them about their characters and make them before hand. Also, talk to the parents about the game if that's an option, and if not, send home a detailed permission slip, and maybe write up, like, two or three pages describing the world where the game takes place, and a short prelude to the adventure.

OTHER NOTES: As for clerics, I used the ancient greek gods, because virtually no one is offended by them, try that. And none of the kids or their parents minded the magic either.

You can pm me if you want more information about what worked and didn't with their attention spans.... Which for us have been between 2 and 4 hours depending on how into the game they were.

Jalor
2009-01-06, 07:58 PM
The problem here is that it only takes one lunatic parent to screw you over. Up until high school, the parents pretty much have dominion over the lives of their kids' teachers. I have seen good teachers fired to prevent bad publicity after a single parent complains. If anyone takes issue with D&D, your job is probably history.

Now with that pessimistic crap out of the way, advice time. I would go with 4th Edition D&D should you actually try it. It no longer has options for evil characters in the books, has a pulp/comic-book feel to it, and the combat plays like a good board game. I second/third/whatever the ideas of permission slips, Greek gods, and dragons. Basically, the best options are already in the topic. If you go ahead with this, I hope it works out.


Actually, as an aside (not to hijack the thread) perhaps somebody out there knows of such a "politically correct" RPG that exists?
FATAL. :smalltongue:

elliott20
2009-01-06, 09:16 PM
Please tell me I'm not the only one here who thinks D&D is a terrible RPG primer especially for kids. 4E or 3E it doesn't matter, D&D is a fairly complex game with a bundle of rules that takes a long time to learn. Not to say that an 11 year old CAN'T learn it or even excel at it, but I don't think those kids are in the majority here. I think MOST kids would probably get bored after say, half an hour of trying to figure out how to build their character. And watch as half of your kids start wanting to play Harry Potter clones or Halo clones.

If you ask me, you need a system that is light on the rules, but have a structured approach so you don't end up with an absolutely chaotic game. Also, how many kids are you gonna have doing this activity? You can't GM AND keep watch on all the kids, you know. And you certainly will not be able to GM a 15 person game while still keeping their focus. I just don't think it can be done. I know that I personally have a problem keeping focus when we start hitting 8 players or more and I'm friggin' 27.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-06, 09:53 PM
Personally, I think that your best possible odds of success are with the Greek angle. In fact, if you G(r)eek it up to the hilt, you can pretty effectively camoflage the D&D portion and even work in an actual educational element. As Bill Nye would say - Please, Consider The Following:

The Game: "Pathfinder - Heroes of Olympus"
The Premise: Greek myths are full of great heroes like Hercules, Jason, and Perseus. The idea of P-HoO (which is totally not a satanic game like D&D) is that while the Herc-man and his buddies got the best press, they weren't the only heroes running around. There were other, smaller champions doing good deeds and slaying monsters, and the kids at your event get the chance to create heroes of their own for that role.
The Catch: You can legitimately say that you're using a d20-based game called Pathfinder, just without mentioning the caveat that it's the pre-Alpha Pathfinder ruleset (I.e., 3.5ed):smallbiggrin:. IMO, the sort of person who considers D&D to be devil-worship will not be the sort of person capable/interested in doing the research to connect Pathfinder and D&D.
The Crunch:Limit the character races to human, and only use the simpler classes like Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Favored Soul. For example adventures - pretend the Nimean Lion had a litter of cubs before Hercules killed it. He's off doing better things, but there's still a bunch of baby man-eaters that need dispatching, so you send the PC's against a group of dire lions, advanced or templated to taste.
The Education: D&D is already stealing a ton of monsters from classic myth, so it's not hard to use them for this. It'll let you teach impromptu history/mythology lessons in the guise of monster-slaying, and maybe even character creation...is the Favored Soul a champion of Hestia, or maybe Aphrodite? Does the Barbarian choose to give his offerings to Ares or Hephestus?
The Danger: That someone who'd be opposing you is actually smart/net-savvy enough to do the research and figure out you're indoctrinating their precious children in a renamed and reflavored D&D game.

THAC0
2009-01-06, 09:57 PM
As a teacher myself, I would never do it.

That said, if you want to do something gaming related I'm not familiar enough with other systems to offer an opinion, but not having the D&D label is a good step.

Or just get out Munchkin and play card and board games.

Seriously, for me at least, it's not worth the risk of A) pissing off parents, or B) pissing off coworkers.

elliott20
2009-01-06, 10:08 PM
not to mention the logistic issues you'd face with variable number of kids, varying attention spans, and simply different capacity grasp abstract game concepts.

Aptera
2009-01-06, 10:46 PM
I once had a teacher play a game (Superheroes mind you , but the same basic concept as here) with 4th and 5th graders. I think most of them could handle it.

elliott20
2009-01-06, 11:04 PM
I'm not saying kids are incapable of handling a game, I'm saying that you need to consider the scale and game you're playing. If he has more than say, 4-5 kids, he's better off just doing board games or splitting kids into groups. (if there are other kids who can GM) If he picks a game that requires a lot of detailed calculations and rule monitoring, much more so.

tcrudisi
2009-01-07, 12:23 AM
2)a) And it's a private school. But, hey, it's a pretty liberal private school and in this day and age, does anyone really believe that D&D leads to devil worship and suicide?

Yes, yes they do. Being from a small town in the South, right in the middle of the bible belt, I know what it's like to be persecuted for playing that "devil-worshiping game." When someone was arrested and it was found out by the local media that he played RPG's, there was a large community outcry that RPG's cause violent tendencies in people.

I'm not trying to say that every town is this way. I'm sure it is not. But there are some towns where D&D is the same thing as summoning up the devil himself. It's very scary to me. I am dumfounded by some people's ability to attribute the worst to things they do not understand. My mother still asks me periodically if I play that devil-worshipping game, and I've been out of the house for 10 years now.

As a bit of irony, my pastor used to play D&D when he was young, and he taught his kids to play. Unfortunately, the preachers in town were all strongly against it due to religious beliefs.

Please be careful. It only takes one very irate parent to ruin it for everyone.

Arros Winhadren
2009-01-07, 01:31 AM
I can't speak too much from experience, but a number of my friends were introduced to D&D by one of my middle school teachers, and they play it (and convinced me to play it, eventually) all the time now. This is your opportunity to introduce them to a pastime that will last forever.

I've DMed 3.5 for my friend's younger siblings, who show a grasp of both 4th and 3.5 editions so long as they're kept away from character-making. Just give them a character sheet and they're good to go, just ask for the appropriate numbers when they tell you what they want to do and do the rolls yourself.

Don't be afraid of being mean to children - I consistently had NPCs kill this kids familiar until he stopped interrupting the game/annoying other players with it.

Thrud
2009-01-07, 02:00 AM
Permission slips = GOOD! Yeah, I 4th or 5th that idea.

As for the rules, don't worry about teaching them to the kids. I have had plenty of excellent games where the players don't know the rules at all. Make up the characters ahead of time. You know all the numbers and such, but for the kids just tell them in generalities. (Grog the fighters is very strong, can't read, rides horses well, etc. Zap the wizard is very smart, can cast a spell that zaps the enemy, but can only do it a couple of times a day, and has these other spells that he knows too. Sneaky the rogue can hide really well, is very agile, and good at picking locks, etc.)

Then you don't have to worry about them knowing the rules. All you have to do then is tell them when to roll the dice, what dice to roll, and whether or not they succeed. Over time they will start to learn about their levels of skill, and what dice get rolled when.

This leaves them free to have fun in the game without needing to learn any rules. I have used this technique several times in the past. I would recommend on of the earlier versions of D&D if you want to go this way, however, as it does not have such straightjacketed rules as 4ed. 3ed might work, though it will be a lot to keep track of yourself. I would suggest 1st or 2nd ed as being the best for this technique.

Just a thought.

This technique also allows you to conceal the 'identity' of the game you are running. Don't call it D&D. Call it a fantasy roleplaying game. As long as you know most of the rules yourself you won't need to crack the books very often and you certainly won't get annoying kids calling you on every rule decision, because they won't really know what they are playing.

It helps avoid a lot of problems.

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-07, 09:02 AM
2) I'm in the South.

That's gonna be a problem. At least a few and possibly a bunch of the parents are going to flip out.


2)a) And it's a private school. But, hey, it's a pretty liberal private school and in this day and age, does anyone really believe that D&D leads to devil worship and suicide?

Yes, they do. If you do this, you will meet them.

Chromat
2009-01-07, 09:53 AM
I DM-ed some kids (five of them) aged 11-13.Sessions were rare but campaign spanned for few years (real time). And i can say that kids were liking it very much. Of course first session got me completely unprepared, but soon i adapted. There were some really nice surprises they pulled on me i learned a lot.

And to hold 5 hyperactive cola-guzzling kids attention isn't easy task either.

So, advice (from expirience):
nice, non sugar snacks (vegetable, like carrot sticks) and drinks. Sugar makes them go supernova.

There is no difference in monsters you can defeat and npc's and monsters you cannot defeat. Everything is fair game, self preservation was nonexistent, at least in beginning.

Less talky, more smashy! No Bard npc telling long stories. Also it took me some time to explain them idea of different approaches to conflict, let say like ambush (as opposed to standard method of wading in and cleaving).

LOUD! they were really loud for the most of the time, yelling in excitement or just at each other. Thank god on tolerant neighbors.

lisiecki
2009-01-07, 01:24 PM
Do you martyr yourself in every thread, or just the ones I read with you in it? :smallmad:

It really just must be the ones you read. I'm actually capable of exchanging ideas quite well (at least i like to think, you can always check my post history and decide for your self)when im not being insulted specifically or because of things i do, say think, or believe.
But hey, if people think badly of me, who am I to argue with them, really, and hey, maybe if i beleve what they beleve, they will like me better :)


As a teacher myself, I would never do it.
That said, if you want to do something gaming related I'm not familiar enough with other systems to offer an opinion, but not having the D&D label is a good step.
Or just get out Munchkin and play card and board games.
Seriously, for me at least, it's not worth the risk of A) pissing off parents, or B) pissing off coworkers.

Would it be possible/ practical to send a letter to the parents before hand?
While im sure some may get upset later on in the process at least the ones who know the name “dungeons and dragons” will have a chance to know whats going on



1) They're kids.
1)a) Okay, they can't sit still for two long without going stir-crazy and getting hungry. Having snacks available helps with one and standing up every once in a while, walking around, helps with the other. Maybe even some pseudo-larping their most dramatic moves.


See i don't know about that, i remember being in grade school and playing AD&D for hours on end


{Scrubbed}
Go for it. Kids won't understand the rules, yes, but if you don't mind doing most of the rules work, and they have the patience to learn about all their moves and maybe pick a few feats and such out then I think the game will be fun.

I can't say i aggre with that, when I was a kid we figured out the rules just fine by our selves. With an adult there who knows the rules, it would happen even faster.


Yes, but as some others have said, I still HIGHLY suggest you get permission slips from the kids. It's ridiculous some of the crap teachers can get in trouble for nowadays, I know, but when one's job might be on the line, being cautious cannot hurt.

Not just teachers. I've heard more than once a story about some kid running down a rode naked, crying, and people in cars passing the kid by. When one person stopped the car to try to make sure the kid was all right, and called 911. When the cops got there, guns were drawn and the cops ran a background check on him

Gamebird
2009-01-07, 01:53 PM
I have run into a lot of prejudice against D&D in my time. I would strongly suggest against you running a game called D&D, permission slip or no. For one thing, all it takes is a single disapproving parent or co-worker to get you into hot water. Right now I'm in trouble at work because I unwisely expressed doubt that God had saved a woman from an illness (my exact words were "Then why did He afflict her in the first place?") and then I even more unwisely followed this up by admitting I was an atheist. Wow, now I'm in trouble with a lot of people here and I'm looking for a new job that doesn't come with a hostile work environment. They haven't fired me, but who wants to work with people who give you the cold shoulder all the time?

You won't know where these landmines are until you step on one, but this teaching kids looks like a landmine to me. Religion is VERY important to people and D&D has a religious tie (in a bad way) for many people. Even if it is untrue.

Besides, D&D is a complicated game and there are lots of other good games out there. Might as well run a board game, or Battletech/Mechwarrior, or even Pathfinder (the Olympus story is cool!) Better still if you are the sole arbiter of the rules and die rolls and there's no book for anyone to read and object to some portion of it.

pendell
2009-01-07, 02:02 PM
I am a gamer and a fundamentalist .. sort of, anyway. I believed the 'Dark Dungeons' stick until I met a pastor who was a DM. Also encountered Knights of the Dinner Table.

The sticking point is the parents. It wouldn't surprise me if the school is just fine with it, but all you need is one parent to get panicky and then you've got a major upheavel in school-parent relations.

You don't want to be the center of that, even if you win.

My thoughts are ... if you're really nervous about it, why not find an alternative RPG that doesn't have the, ah, name recognition D&D does? 'Aces & Eights' is a western. 'Traveller' is SF. Spycraft is modern espionage. All have RPG mechanics, but it's unusual to meet wizards or Abominations From Beyond.

Or there might be a Narnia module out there somewhere as well.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Arros Winhadren
2009-01-07, 07:47 PM
No doubt this has already been suggested, but why not invite the parents along if they feel unsure? Or better yet, get someone everyone trusts (like the vice-principal or something) to regularly check up on you. That way the parents feel like their kids aren't shut up in a room with a demon worshiper and they feel like they can watch the action. At my D&D club here at UC Davis a much younger kid showed up who wanted to play D&D and his dad came along.
The dad watched with disapproving stares as his kid played D&D with college-aged guys, but next week the kid showed up again and continues to come. Just because they don't like it doesn't mean you can't convince them it's not bad for their kids (too many negatives?).

Thrud
2009-01-07, 08:06 PM
I think most of us agree that the bad press D&D has recieve over the years is a focus for knee jerk reactions that are emotional rather than rationally based. As soon as emotions are involved rationality goes out the window and it doesn't really matter what you say, some people will be unwilling to change their preconcieved notions.

It doesn't matter whether or not you base the game on D&D but enough of us here have had bad enough experiences that it makes sense NOT to call it D&D.

Lupy
2009-01-07, 08:32 PM
Depends on the parents in your area, as was said before. Do you know any of the kids' parents? You could talk to them.

Maerok
2009-01-07, 08:42 PM
Kids can show you sides of Evil you never knew existed.

Be sure to deny them the use of BoVD when they ask for it by name. :smalleek:

You could refer to it as a 2d (as opposed to the linear, well literally at least, progress of say, Monopoly) adventure board game.

Probably do a good-guy's campaign, mid to low level. With kobolds - and of course you have to do 'the voice'. I'd run it off of a few treasured cliches to start with and then, if there's developing interest... Tomb of Horrors.

Poison_Fish
2009-01-07, 09:08 PM
Well, first off I can suggest listening to this interview (http://www.odeo.com/episodes/451897). It should give some insight. Granted the entire interview is not just about education. The women being interviewed runs The Roleplay Workshop (http://www.roleplay-workshop.com/). She was also a middle school teacher who ended up running RPG's for kids.

I've gotten some decent experience myself having run games(and been run for) as a kid, as I suppose I could call myself a product of that program. In my experience, the primary facets you'll want to focus on, regardless of system, is problem solving and team work.

That being said, my experience with D&D is limited. I imagine 4E may be a better choice for running with the kids. If you have a helping hand or a lower number of kids, I highly suggest you spend a session in the process of helping them make characters. That's a good way for kids to slowly understand the system.

What you'll be needing the most is patience. Children will take their time in understanding the system. A good idea might to do a little print out tutorial of what dice to roll for what things, and where to find stuff on the character sheet.

THAC0
2009-01-07, 10:36 PM
Would it be possible/ practical to send a letter to the parents before hand?
While im sure some may get upset later on in the process at least the ones who know the name “dungeons and dragons” will have a chance to know whats going on


Since you quoted me, I'll assume that was directed at me. I will reiterate, I would never do it myself, letter or no, permission slip or no. Parents can and will get upset about things that their children are not even involved in. Parents can and will get upset about things that are completely normal and district supported and mainstream. Just imagine how upset they can get over something NOT mainstream.

For me, it's just not worth the risk. Honestly, some of the time parents are the bane of my existence. It's certainly not worth the risk to me of my boss suddenly thinking I'm a devil worshiper or whatever. Is it silly that this bothers some people? Yes. And if it was about something that really mattered, I'd have no trouble toeing the line. But it's just a game. Not worth it. Again, IMO.