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WorthingSon
2009-01-06, 03:44 PM
My group is getting ready to play in a world overwhelmed by roaming undead armies... I plan on playing a Maug (from Fiend Folio) and going War Hulk. I was looking for a way to maximize my reach and damage, and I found this...

Dragon Mag # 352 pg. 43 has an exotic weapon called the greatcleaver (2d8 slashing, 2H, 10' reach).

Increase to large size (since I'm playing a Maug wich are large).
3d8 slashing, 2H, 15' reach

In MoF, increased damage dice is for heavy material (like gold, platinum, or, why not uranium), and heavy weapons are exotic weapons; thus requiring a specific feat for each heavy weapon. So make it a Heavy Greatcleaver.
4d8 slashing, 2H, 15' reach

Take Monkey Grip to up it one size larger and you get:
6d8 slashing, 2H, 20' reach, -2 to hit.

Does anyone see any mistakes in this? Any ways to improve it?

NEO|Phyte
2009-01-06, 03:47 PM
Take Monkey Grip to up it one size larger and you get:
6d8 slashing, 2H, 20' reach, -2 to hit.

Does anyone see any mistakes in this?

Monkey Grip doesn't improve your reach with the weapon.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 03:54 PM
Fortunately, a Large creature with a reach weapon already has 20 ft. reach with it (able to hit targets at 15 and 20 ft. away, but not at 5 and 10 ft.).

But yeah, Monkey Grip doesn't help. Reach is based on character/creature size, never weapon size. Using a Tiny reach weapon, by the RAW, gives a Medium character reach.

SadisticFishing
2009-01-06, 04:40 PM
Also, monkey grip is BAD. Get Strong Arm Bracers instead (6,000gp, bracer slot item, can use a weapon of one size larger than you).

esorscher
2009-01-06, 06:17 PM
Also, to my knowledge, Monkey Grip can't be used with a 2H weapon. It can only be used to wield a large 1H weapon in 1H. (or medium 1H weapon in 1H, if you're a small character). I could be wrong, though.

Heliomance
2009-01-06, 07:31 PM
Monkey grip is bad under normal circumstances, yes. Look at the stats, though, instead of knee-jerking. For that -2 to hit, he's getting an extra 2d8. That's a good trade off.

And esorcher, Monkey Grip does allow you to use two handed weapons like that. Without it you can't, you wield one-handed weapons a size larger than you as two-handed weapons. MG lets you wielded it with the same handedness.

Epinephrine
2009-01-06, 08:22 PM
Reach is based on character/creature size, never weapon size. Using a Tiny reach weapon, by the RAW, gives a Medium character reach.

Well, the PHB says:
"A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away." (emphasis mine)

I take that bit to mean that the reach weapon must also be the correct size for the wielder, and it's pretty much RAW, though not perhaps as clearly stated as it could be. The FAQ interpret it as being at least the size of the wielder.

From the FAQ:
"How do reach weapons work if they are of a different
size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding
a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey
Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for
each situation?
A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but
only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the
wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach.
An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach
weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack
foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large
creature wielding a non-reach weapon).
A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach
weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further),
and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away
(as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A
human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach
from the weapon.
The Player’s Handbook isn’t as clear on this as it could be,
although an example of reach in action on page 113 in the
Player’s Handbook provides pretty strong support: “A typical
Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate
size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . .” [italics
added]. While this reference doesn’t mention the ability to
wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size, allowing
such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable
extension of the spirit and intent of the rule."

Lord Mancow
2009-01-06, 08:31 PM
Can I suggest getting cleave, Greatcleave and maybe also power attack unless there's better feats or your not going to be fighting lots of enemies but by the sound of the campaign description it sounds as if you will be.

Heliomance
2009-01-06, 08:43 PM
Not Great cleave. Cleave is good, Great cleave isn't. It's rare to drop more than one enemy per round, you just don't get enough use out of it.

RTGoodman
2009-01-06, 08:51 PM
Monkey grip is bad under normal circumstances, yes. Look at the stats, though, instead of knee-jerking. For that -2 to hit, he's getting an extra 2d8. That's a good trade off.

Yeah, but it's much better to pay 6,000gp (for strongarm bracers) to the get the same effect WITHOUT both spending a feat AND getting a -2 penalty to all your attacks.


To the OP, if your DM won't allow the great cleaver (since it's from Dragon and a lot of DMs don't allow stuff from there), Frostburn has the sugliin, which is almost the same. You have to have the EWP (Sugliin) feat to wield it, and even then it's still so big that you can only use it once per turn AND need a full-round action to do so. There's a separate feat (Sugliin Mastery) to be able to use it normally, though, so it'd work the same as the great cleaver albeit for one extra feat.

Mr Pants
2009-01-06, 10:21 PM
Yeah, but it's much better to pay 6,000gp (for strongarm bracers) to the get the same effect WITHOUT both spending a feat AND getting a -2 penalty to all your attacks.


To the OP, if your DM won't allow the great cleaver (since it's from Dragon and a lot of DMs don't allow stuff from there), Frostburn has the sugliin, which is almost the same. You have to have the EWP (Sugliin) feat to wield it, and even then it's still so big that you can only use it once per turn AND need a full-round action to do so. There's a separate feat (Sugliin Mastery) to be able to use it normally, though, so it'd work the same as the great cleaver albeit for one extra feat.

What book are the strongarm bracers in?

Also if the OP's DM won't allow the great cleaver you can just use the Fullblade from Sword and Fist. It's 2d8 slashing exotic two-handed and doesn't have the Sugliin's restrictions on the number of attacks.

RTGoodman
2009-01-06, 10:43 PM
What book are the strongarm bracers in?

Magic Item Compendium, pg. 139.


Also if the OP's DM won't allow the great cleaver you can just use the Fullblade from Sword and Fist. It's 2d8 slashing exotic two-handed and doesn't have the Sugliin's restrictions on the number of attacks.

Yeah, but here's the thing - would you rather just wield a big sword, or rampage across the battlefield wielding (basically) a giant amalgam of duct-taped-together branches, antlers, and other pointy things? :smallwink:

Mr Pants
2009-01-06, 11:04 PM
Magic Item Compendium, pg. 139.



Yeah, but here's the thing - would you rather just wield a big sword, or rampage across the battlefield wielding (basically) a giant amalgam of duct-taped-together branches, antlers, and other pointy things? :smallwink:

Not just a big sword, but a choppa with a bunch of stabby and cutty things welded onto it. [/greenskin] Mmm, I love changing fluff.

Also I played a character that wielded a Sugliin once. He would beat up deers with it.

WorthingSon
2009-01-08, 09:16 AM
Can I suggest getting cleave, Greatcleave and maybe also power attack ...

Cleave and power attack are pre-reqs for becoming a War Hulk (if my memory serves me correctly, I'm at work).


Also, monkey grip is BAD. Get Strong Arm Bracers instead (6,000gp, bracer slot item, can use a weapon of one size larger than you).

My DM will rarely allow us to get magic items of our choosing w/o crafting them ourselves; but I'll keep an eye out for this.


And as far as my DM allowing things from Dragon, our group allows basically anything. The balance is of course if you make something too broken, the DM will make something even more broken to come kill you (I don't understand how he comes up with the builds he does... they are just wow).

Thanks for the tips/suggestions. I remember reading somewhere that increasing the size of a reach weapon changed it reach, but I can' find it anywhere, and I am not really worried about the reach, 20' is enough.

Adumbration
2009-01-08, 09:56 AM
Have you taken a look at the Maug grafts at the end of the book? They're good, and they're cheap.

WorthingSon
2009-01-08, 01:21 PM
I took a brief look. I'm getting wheels!

Tacoma
2009-01-08, 05:23 PM
Get a lever attached to your back that automatically stands you up when you fall over. Instant Instant Stand!

WorthingSon
2009-01-08, 10:52 PM
My DM found where is says that increasing size increases reach, Savage Species p.42


Size and Reach: For each size increase of a reach weapon, increase its reach by 5 feet. A Huge guisarme has a reach of 15 feet (instead of 10 feet for the Large version), for instance, while a Gargantuan guisarme has a reach of 20 feet. Decreasing the size of a reach weapon quickly makes reach irrelevant. Having a reach of only 5 feet is normal for Medium-size and Small creatures. The important difference is that Tiny creatures using Small reach weapons can fight in melee as if they had 5 feet of reach, meaning they do not have to enter an opponent’s area to attack.

RandomLunatic
2009-01-08, 10:56 PM
Savage Species in 3.0, which makes that little passage irrelevant to a 3.5 game. Besides, if actually followed, it makes reach weapons weaker, by reducing their reach.

A Halberd is a two-handed weapon, which means it is Large for a Medium creature. A Large Creature will wield a Huge Halberd (15'), and with Monkey grip can carry around a Gargantuan one (20').

In 3.5, a Large creature wielding a large reach weapon doubles their reach (10' for a Large/tall creature), without any feats expended.

Simanos
2009-01-09, 08:42 AM
"Tiny creatures using Small reach weapons can fight in melee as if they had 5 feet of reach, meaning they do not have to enter an opponent’s area to attack."
Does this work in 3.5 too? Can they Tiny creatures flank with it? What about smaller creatures (Fine? Diminutive?)?

Magnor Criol
2009-01-09, 11:28 AM
Savage Species in 3.0, which makes that little passage irrelevant to a 3.5 game.

Not true. 3.0 material is not all void in 3.5; you just have to use your judgment for some of it (which leads to issues in some cases, of course, but that's part of the pie). But a good portion of 3.0 material is still pretty valid. Look, for example, at the downloadable update booklets WotC has on their site; often, the only changes made to update creatures to 3.5 are barely more than changing a few terms, and most of the numbers are left intact.

Plus, Savage Species is like 3.25 or something - it was printed right on the cusp of 3.5, and its creature entries have both Damage and Attack - Full Attack entries. I'm not an expert, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the main reason there's no Savage Species update booklet is because there's no need for one, that beyond a few rules (like maybe that weapon size - reach relationship) and a few terms it's all still good.

Tygell
2009-01-09, 02:09 PM
WorthingSon, I sent you a PM.

Deepblue706
2009-01-09, 02:50 PM
Not Great cleave. Cleave is good, Great cleave isn't. It's rare to drop more than one enemy per round, you just don't get enough use out of it.

Well, to fair, Great Cleave does get good usage if you've a good Jump (necessary for Leap Attack) and are serious about your ability to dish out damage on a charge.

I mean, in gme, if a squad of enemies are marching a short distance away in formation, all you need is to leap into the center with your Leap Attack Charge. "Jump" (level 1 Wizard spell) to clear their heads (shouldn't be hard if they're not gargantuan) and "Silence" (level 2 Clerc spell) for them to never hear you coming. Make use of Shock Trooper, Rage, etc, and you can probably clear them all before they act. And, your spellcasting buddies can make better use of their higher-level spell-slots.

Simanos
2009-01-10, 06:40 AM
Great Cleave sucks. If you get to use that means the opponents were mere flies anyway and you didn't really need it. Only good for showing off.
If the enemies are good enough to challenge you, I doubt you'll ever get more than 1 cleave in a round.

martyboy74
2009-01-10, 08:27 AM
As cheesy as it is, if you're going War Hulk, you've already cheesified yourself...

Try the Spiked Chain. Reach (both within the inner and outer areas), along with tripping and disarming. Admittedly, it gives less damage, but it capitalizes on some of the War Hulk's abilities.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-10, 12:04 PM
I've seen twinked out melee types that could deal more damage than I could in a round and there is nothing useless about clearing the entire group of goblins before they can hurt the members of the party with low armor class.

Llama231
2009-01-10, 12:43 PM
This would be fun if you went critical-happy.:smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2009-01-10, 01:44 PM
Not true. 3.0 material is not all void in 3.5; you just have to use your judgment for some of it (which leads to issues in some cases, of course, but that's part of the pie). But a good portion of 3.0 material is still pretty valid. These are all true statements -- but RandomLunatic's point is still correct. 3.5 changed all the basic rules for how weapon sizes work in the game, so anything based on the older rules, including the Savage Species selection you quoted, is just flat out invalid in a 3.5 game.

woodenbandman
2009-01-14, 08:47 PM
All large 2-hander wielders, war hulks in particular, should take Knock Back. Actually, Knockback is stronger if you have power attack, but war hulk grants you bonuses on the bull rush without reducing your to-hit, so it's a fair-ish tradeoff. Be sure to get a skillful greatcleaver, which grants you a BAB equal to 3/4 your hitdice. Then you should be able to batter opponents all over the place, knocking their cloven halves 40 feet through the air, while headbanging and thrusting your hands to the sky and screaming METAL!!!!!

Keld Denar
2009-01-14, 09:01 PM
Be sure to get a skillful greatcleaver, which grants you a BAB equal to 3/4 your hitdice. Then you should be able to batter opponents all over the place, knocking their cloven halves 40 feet through the air, while headbanging and thrusting your hands to the sky and screaming METAL!!!!!

I support this message. Also good, this + Dungeoncrasher Alt Class Feature from Dungeonscape. Why just fling the cloven halves of enemies all over the place, when you can do so hard enough that their remains paint all sorts of neato splatter paterns on the dungeon walls. Call it modern art! You'll make MILLIONS! (though probably not until your dead, thats kind of the unfortunate trend with artists)