PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Playing a full caster when magic is outlawed



Jera
2009-01-06, 04:15 PM
So Im starting a new 3.5 game next saturday and I had planned on playing a wizard. However I just learned that the world we're playing in has outlawed magic, so if I want to play a caster I have to go with someone that has the ability to cast "naturaly" aka sorcerer or druid. Right now im leaning more towards sorcerer.

What spells/feats would be the best for a world that has outlawed the practice of magic?

Core classes only, but feats, flaws, and spells can be from any source.

We're starting at lvl 1 and my stats are 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17(standard 4d6-lowest)

Bonecrusher Doc
2009-01-06, 04:35 PM
Is magic outlawed by the NPC authority figures in your campaign, or is it outlawed by your DM? Big difference. If your DM will still let you be a caster, just an outlaw one, you could be like the caster version of Robin Hood!

Whiplord
2009-01-06, 04:37 PM
Still/Silent Spell?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 04:38 PM
Energy drain from the rich, major creation to the poor?

BRC
2009-01-06, 04:38 PM
Invisible Spell from Cityscape. It's a metamagic feat with no adjustment to the spell level that removes the visual effect of spells.

Hal
2009-01-06, 04:40 PM
First things first, in a world where magic is illegal, material components are going to be hard to come by; you'll probably want the feat which lets you avoid using those which are less than 1gp in cost (Eschew Materials? I forget the name).

As for the rest, anything which will hide your spellcasting. Still Spell and Silent Spell, while not exactly powerful metamagic feats, will help keep you out of jail. There's also a skill trick in Complete Scoundrel which lets you hide your spellcasting with a Sleight of Hand check (Conceal Spellcasting).

Finally, you might want a crafting feat. With magic illegal, magic gear and items might be rare. You may want to discuss that with your DM, though, as it could be a wasted feat if you'll be finding that stuff during the adventures.

Edit: If you're not married to playing a caster, a Paladin might be a good choice. Complete Champion has an alternative Paladin who gets bonus feats instead of spellcasting. I don't know if a Paladin counts as magic in such a setting (Turn Undead, etc.), but it's certainly an option.

Telonius
2009-01-06, 04:44 PM
It's a bit unclear of exactly what's outlawed. Is it just prepared Arcane magic (i.e. Wizards) that's illegal? Sorcerers get their magic from the same source as Wizards, they (along with Bards) are just spontaneous casters. The divine full casters, at least in Core, are also prepared casters - they choose which ones to prepare.

But since both Druids and Sorcerers are allowed, it sounds like Wizards are the only ones who aren't allowed. Druid is a more powerful class than Sorcerer, but then again Druid is a more powerful class than almost anything. If you're leaning towards Sorcerer, you might check out Solo's guide to them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801).

Jera
2009-01-06, 04:55 PM
Is magic outlawed by the NPC authority figures in your campaign, or is it outlawed by your DM? Big difference.

My DM put it as, "Think about it as clerics/solomnic knights post cataclysm. The people dont trust casters, they dont want them around, and most people wont tolerate it. There are a few people with personal vendeta's against casters and spend their lives hunting them down."

So I could technichally play as a wizard but it would be a pain in the ass to learn new spells, and I dont know if my DM would allow it.

Edit: What book are the character flaws Pathetic and Noncombatant
found in?

Lochar
2009-01-06, 05:08 PM
You get two free spells a level. If you're careful, you'll never need another.


Just invest in a second or possibly third spellbook.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-06, 05:34 PM
Still/Silent Spell?

Agreed. Along with the Invisible Spell feat which BRC mentioned. Cityscape is a good book to boot; if you don't have it, see if one of your friends or DM will lend it to you just to look up that feat. Eschew Materials is also good (again, someone mentioned it).

Since you were thinking wizard, I'd go with sorcerer. Similar enough- both arcane and same spell list. For stats, you might want to consider:

Str 9, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 17

Switching Dex and Con, or Int and Wis may be appropriate depending on exactly how you want to play your character. I'd play human if I were you, since the extra feat at first level will be quite helpful to you most likely. My two copper would be picking Eschew Materials and Silent Spell as your first feats.

Essentially, overall, you're looking for spells which can be done subtly and quietly. Except when you /know/ your opponents and any evidence will be destroyed, fireballs and such are out of the question. Heck, you probably shouldn't even take them for any of your limited known spells.

I assume your fellow PCs will at least know of and be OK with your spellcasting? If you have to hide much of that from them, that's a whole 'nuther ballpark. Rather unlikely, though, as I don't see how that could conceivably work.

Ellisthion
2009-01-06, 06:19 PM
How about Beguiler?

monty
2009-01-06, 06:27 PM
How about Beguiler?

Seconded. If you can play one, it seems like it'd be perfect for the concept.

TylerFerretLord
2009-01-06, 06:33 PM
How about a psion if it's allowed?

Jera
2009-01-06, 06:38 PM
Nope, as I said in the OP "Core classes only, but feats, flaws, and spells can be from any source."

Just in case it matters the group consists of Half-elf Barbarian, Human Fighter, Human Ranger, and myself.

Thanks for the advice it looks like Im going to go with Human Sorcerer with Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Negotiator, Invisible Spell, Pathetic[flaw], and Noncombatant[flaw]. Im taking Negotiator becuase I always end up as my groups "Face." Which will be very interesting this time around.

monty
2009-01-06, 06:57 PM
Negotiator

http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg

You can get much better with your feats than +2 to a couple of skills. Unless you're playing a Diplomancer or something similar, it's almost never worth it.

derfenrirwolv
2009-01-06, 07:15 PM
Silent spell and still spell sound like musts.

I would concentrate on enchantments, charms, and things that don't have a visible, flashy effect. Suggestion's verbal component can be worked into a conversation.

You might be able to get away with conjuration. Carry a fancy looking whistle and blow it before you summon something. It may get you arrested and held for questioning while they examine the whistle instead of burned at the stake.

Something you could also consider is getting improved unarmed strike and pretending to be a monk

Shield
Mage armor
charm person
Disguise self (always usefull after the fight when you're on the run from authorities)

Hideous laughter
Touch of idiocy
Invisibility
spectral hand (hide in the corner and let it do your dirty work)
buff spells Owls wisdom bears endurence etc


Heroism
Rage
Suggestion
Vampiric touch

Phantasmal killer
Fear
Mordeinkens faithfull hound
Teleport (yes its obvious... but it gets you out of trouble)
Dominate person. (make them gesture and speak spells or mumbo jumbo, and then let loose with the overt spells so he gets blamed)
Magic Jar (put a nice jewel in a party members pommel)

Gilby
2009-01-06, 07:23 PM
Heh, whatever you do, don't point out how contradictory it is when magic items show up when magic is outlawed.

Tar Palantir
2009-01-06, 07:24 PM
I've always wondered at the fundamental absurdity of anti-caster prejudice.

Commoner 1: "We haven't had a pogrom in a while. Who should we persecute?"

Commoner 2: "How about wizards?"

Commoner 1: "You mean the people who can alter the fundamental nature of reality with their thoughts? That's a great idea!"

Commoner 2: "I wonder why no one else has thought of this."

:facepalm:

Curmudgeon
2009-01-06, 07:26 PM
Edit: What book are the character flaws Pathetic and Noncombatant found in? They're in Unearthed Arcana, and also available here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm).

Jera
2009-01-06, 08:07 PM
You can get much better with your feats than +2 to a couple of skills. Unless you're playing a Diplomancer or something similar, it's almost never worth it.

Thanks for the advice, Im going to switch out negotiator for Divine Sorcery.

Prometheus
2009-01-06, 08:11 PM
Generally speaking, wizards and sorcerers are indistinguishable to passerbys.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-06, 08:21 PM
I've always wondered at the fundamental absurdity of anti-caster prejudice.

Commoner 1: "We haven't had a pogrom in a while. Who should we persecute?"

Commoner 2: "How about wizards?"

Commoner 1: "You mean the people who can alter the fundamental nature of reality with their thoughts? That's a great idea!"

Commoner 2: "I wonder why no one else has thought of this."

:facepalm:

Commoner 3: "Wait a minute guys... Is that a cloudkill I smell?"

Zeful
2009-01-06, 08:23 PM
I've always wondered at the fundamental absurdity of anti-caster prejudice.

Commoner 1: "We haven't had a pogrom in a while. Who should we persecute?"

Commoner 2: "How about wizards?"

Commoner 1: "You mean the people who can alter the fundamental nature of reality with their thoughts? That's a great idea!"

Commoner 2: "I wonder why no one else has thought of this."

:facepalm:

Maybe it has to do with the fact that a single caster can render an entire population of workers obsolete. Imagine if your job as well as 6,000+ of your friends, family, co-worker's jobs dissappeared because of one man. How would you feel?

Berserk Monk
2009-01-06, 08:25 PM
Don't go sorcerer. Druid is an insanely overpowered class in terms of spells, HD, BAB.:smallbiggrin: If you go sorcerer, enjoy the only 10 or so spells you'll be able to cast.

monty
2009-01-06, 08:31 PM
Don't go sorcerer. Druid is an insanely overpowered class in terms of spells, HD, BAB.:smallbiggrin: If you go sorcerer, enjoy the only 10 or so spells you'll be able to cast.

On the other hand, sorcerer gets arcane spells, which tend to be significantly more powerful than divine, and can cast more of them per day.

Not that druids are weak or anything...

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-06, 08:32 PM
Maybe it has to do with the fact that a single caster can render an entire population of workers obsolete. Imagine if your job as well as 6,000+ of your friends, family, co-worker's jobs dissappeared because of one man. How would you feel?

You'd feel dead.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-06, 09:04 PM
Maybe it has to do with the fact that a single caster can render an entire population of workers obsolete. Imagine if your job as well as 6,000+ of your friends, family, co-worker's jobs dissappeared because of one man. How would you feel?

Let's not forget that, if they have no love for cat-girls, wizards can blow up planets with major creation :smallwink:

Jera
2009-01-06, 09:09 PM
Do you guys think the Dwarven sorcerer 1st level substitution from races of stone(p.147) worth it?

You give up your familiar, in return you get a d6 HD and the Arcane Earthbound feature which states "While touching the ground the sorcerer gets DR 1/Adamantine -and- Feat: Alertness"

Gold Dwarf from DMG for +2 Con -2 Dex, so Cha isnt afected.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-06, 09:13 PM
Do you guys think the Dwarven sorcerer 1st level substitution from races of stone(p.147) worth it?

You give up your familiar, in return you get a d6 HD and the Arcane Earthbound feature which states "While touching the ground the sorcerer gets DR 1/Adamantine -and- Feat: Alertness"

Gold Dwarf from DMG for +2 Con -2 Dex, so Cha isnt afected.

DR sort of sucks unless you've got a lot of it. Also, as a caster, won't you be flying a bunch eventually?

There are good ways to give up a familiar in PHBII.

Zeful
2009-01-06, 09:21 PM
Let's not forget that, if they have no love for cat-girls, wizards can blow up planets with major creation :smallwink:

Let's not forget, that low level wizards can be killed by a housecat. What can a mob of classless humans do?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-06, 09:23 PM
Let's not forget, that low level wizards can be killed by a housecat. What can a mob of classless humans do?

Well, they can probably get killed by a housecat too.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-06, 09:23 PM
What can a mob of classless humans do?

Quick, fetch me some rubber bracelets! We'll emblazon them with "WWaMoCHD?" and make millions!

The Glyphstone
2009-01-06, 09:30 PM
Let's not forget that, if they have no love for cat-girls, wizards can blow up planets with major creation :smallwink:

That requires that you get your DM to agree that major creation can produce antimatter. Considering the spell's description explicitly mentions creating matter, I myself certainly wouldn't allow the creation of something that couldn't physically be more opposite to matter than it is. YMMV though.

Jera
2009-01-06, 09:31 PM
DR sort of sucks unless you've got a lot of it. Also, as a caster, won't you be flying a bunch eventually?

There are good ways to give up a familiar in PHBII.

Do you have any links off hand? I never picked up the PHBII.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-06, 09:32 PM
Do you have any links off hand? I never picked up the PHBII.

Not legally, I'm afraid.

Zeful
2009-01-06, 09:33 PM
Well, they can probably get killed by a housecat too.
Unlikely, humanoid type provides D8 Hit die for humanoids without class levels and 3/4 bab.


Quick, fetch me some rubber bracelets! We'll emblazon them with "WWaMoCHD?" and make millions!Har, har, har.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-01-06, 09:37 PM
Unlikely, humanoid type provides D8 Hit die for humanoids without class levels and 3/4 bab.


Oh, yeah...

I guess I was thinking of commoners.

Eldariel
2009-01-06, 09:41 PM
Housecats are one thing, but have you ever checked an Eagle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm)'s stats? One of those could kill a commoner or two without breaking a sweat.

ericgrau
2009-01-06, 09:44 PM
We're starting at lvl 1 and my stats are 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17(standard 4d6-lowest)
cha 17, con 15/14, dex 14/15, w/e for the rest.

I'm gonna partly disagree with still/silent spell, depending on your adventures. If it's in combat, who cares if your grease/fireball/etc. is still or silent? Who are you fooling?? Why care if your enemy knows? Well, unless he gets away... Eschew materials is a better choice, unless you can figure out ways to find every single material component you need. This may be easier as a sorceror, since you only need components for some specific spells. Even w/o "magic shops" these materials are mundane enough to be findable. Just don't let people see that you have a collection of them.

Try to figure out exactly what you'll be involved in and tailor your magic concealment accordingly. It may involve insuring that no one escapes, covering up evidence/bodies, etc.

Jera
2009-01-11, 10:19 PM
I finished with my first session with this guy last night, It was a load of fun. I ended up going with battle sorcerer to help cover up my magic. I was rolling amazing bluff*/diplomacy checks against town guards.

Im thinking about doing Battle Sorcerer 7/Dragon Slayer 1/Abjuration Champion 5/ Lion of Talisid 7, So I can keep Full casting levels, while bumping my BAB and NADs up nicely, and grabbing a few nifty abilities along the way. Im going to take Battle Caster so I can max out my AC as well.

Im looking for more Prc's to bump up my BAB and NADs without losing any caster levels.

*my DM house ruled i could keep bluff on my skill list instead of intimidate.

Keld Denar
2009-01-11, 11:23 PM
Eeep, Battle Sorcerer is pretty bad. The small things you gain (larger HD and better BAB advancement) are temporary till you level out of the class. The thing you give up, spell progression, is really harsh and stays with you....forever. See if you can mod it out a little. Its worth it even to lose a single caster level as a sorc instead of taking Battle Sorc.

Can you use the Human Paragon class from UA? That might be a better choice. Nets you a purdy +2 cha as well, and you could add UMD as a class skill. The weapon proficiencies get you into AC.

Really, unless you are trying to be a melee type gish-a-ma-bobber, I'd stick with more sorc and not worry about Battle Sorc or AC.

How about somehting like:
Sorc6/Mindbender1/Fatespinner4/Something4/Archmage5 For your something, maybe...Divine Oracle? I dunno. Regardless, more of a caster. I can't really recommend Mage of the Arcane Order, which is a pretty neato PrC for sorcs, since there probably isn't much in the way of an Arcane Order to join. Class relies on having a "spellpool" with casters putting spells in and taking them out as needed. I dunno...

Triaxx
2009-01-12, 08:56 AM
Hmm... I'd have suggested a Fire or Chaos Gnome. Chaos gets you 1 LA, but makes your favored Sorceror. Plus a +2 Dex, Con and importantly Cha.

Not to mention the ever useful immunity to confusion.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-12, 09:30 AM
I finished with my first session with this guy last night, It was a load of fun. I ended up going with battle sorcerer to help cover up my magic. I was rolling amazing bluff*/diplomacy checks against town guards.

And that's all that matters. :smallsmile:

Delaney Gale
2009-01-12, 09:32 AM
If you have a few skill points to spare, dip into Sleight of Hand and take the feat skill trick Conceal Spellcasting. My rogue/transmuter uses it to cheat at cards when she's playing with our cleric, but you might find being able to cast without being noticed useful- and it doesn't have the spell level increase associated with Still/Silent Spell.

edited because I can't read my own character sheet.

hamishspence
2009-01-12, 10:00 AM
thing is, prehistoric eagles could kill birds weighing twice as much as a man easily. And lived till fairly recently, in New Zealand. Haast's Eagle.

There is at least one record in modern times of an eagle killing a man (I think it was a Wedge-tailed eagle)

Curmudgeon
2009-01-12, 10:04 AM
If you have a few skill points to spare, dip into Sleight of Hand and take the feat Conceal Spellcasting. If you've got the skill points, you can conceal your spellcasting with Sleight of Hand alone. The rules are in Races of Stone.

Roderick_BR
2009-01-12, 12:34 PM
Play a wizard, and claim to be a sorcerer. No one will tell the difference. Just get Spell Mastery to have some spells handy when you can't use your spellbook.

Or put some points in Perform, some funny clothes, an musical instrument, and claim to be a bard, and oops, you don't know how that guy burst into flames. You are a bard, not a wizard (some points in bluff will be useful too)

Tacoma
2009-01-12, 12:58 PM
You could carry a bunch of magic wands and pretend that the spell is coming out of the one in your hand. That way people think you're just a UMD kind of dude rather than a magician.

monty
2009-01-12, 12:59 PM
Play a wizard, and claim to be a sorcerer. No one will tell the difference. Just get Spell Mastery to have some spells handy when you can't use your spellbook.

Or put some points in Perform, some funny clothes, an musical instrument, and claim to be a bard, and oops, you don't know how that guy burst into flames. You are a bard, not a wizard (some points in bluff will be useful too)

I was under the impression that all magic, not just wizards, was illegal. And where would he learn new spells, anyway?

Jera
2009-01-12, 04:06 PM
I was under the impression that all magic, not just wizards, was illegal. And where would he learn new spells, anyway?

You're right, all magic is illegal. No spellbooks, no wands, Though I did see a noble with a magical rapier when I used detect magic while looking for bugs. And there is an advisor to the Duke with a Goatee that I suspect is a magic user/BEG.

Tacoma
2009-01-12, 04:24 PM
You're right, all magic is illegal. No spellbooks, no wands, Though I did see a noble with a magical rapier when I used detect magic while looking for bugs. And there is an advisor to the Duke with a Goatee that I suspect is a magic user/BEG.

This is all the proof you need. BURN THE BBEG!

EDIT: AND he's an advisor to the Duke? I'm surprised he hasn't strung himself up!

monty
2009-01-12, 04:40 PM
You're right, all magic is illegal. No spellbooks, no wands, Though I did see a noble with a magical rapier when I used detect magic while looking for bugs. And there is an advisor to the Duke with a Goatee that I suspect is a magic user/BEG.

So, we have

1. You suspect him of illegal activity.
2. He's an advisor.
3. He has a goatee.

Why haven't you killed him yet?

hamishspence
2009-01-12, 04:54 PM
you never know, said advisor might lean more to the Vetinari side of things than the Jafar side.

Flickerdart
2009-01-12, 04:59 PM
Paladins are still allowed, right? Everybody loves their righteous crusaders, and the pathetic bit of magic they get isn't really anything. Detect Evil at-will in a world with little in the way of fooling/obscuring it? Sign me up!

Doug Lampert
2009-01-12, 05:13 PM
Unlikely, humanoid type provides D8 Hit die for humanoids without class levels and 3/4 bab.

Har, har, har.

Humans have no racial HD. Hence a classless human has zero HD and zero HP. He's never healthier than disabled or whatever they call it. (All those 1d8 writeups of PHB races in the MM are level 1 warriors, not classless.)

Even if it WERE a d8, the hypothetical classless human is not elite, and thus doesn't get max HP at level 1, and thus has 4HP and +0 BAB. While a typical PC wizard will have a decent Con Modifier and have 5-6 HP and +0 BAB.

Either way, the wizard is more survivable vs. a housecat even without spells.

Tacoma
2009-01-12, 05:15 PM
As for paladins, I'd expect the ruling elite to be unwilling to have anyone around who could detect lies or evil. For obvious reasons.

Flickerdart
2009-01-12, 05:44 PM
Humans have no racial HD. Hence a classless human has zero HD and zero HP. He's never healthier than disabled or whatever they call it. (All those 1d8 writeups of PHB races in the MM are level 1 warriors, not classless.)

Even if it WERE a d8, the hypothetical classless human is not elite, and thus doesn't get max HP at level 1, and thus has 4HP and +0 BAB. While a typical PC wizard will have a decent Con Modifier and have 5-6 HP and +0 BAB.

Either way, the wizard is more survivable vs. a housecat even without spells.
You can't have a 0HD creature. All LA0+RHD0 races start out with one Racial Hit Die of their type that gets replaced with a class level when they get one. I think it's in Savage Species, if not outright stated in the MM.

monty
2009-01-12, 05:52 PM
You can't have a 0HD creature. All LA0+RHD0 races start out with one Racial Hit Die of their type that gets replaced with a class level when they get one. I think it's in Savage Species, if not outright stated in the MM.

I think he's talking about this line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType):


Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

Hence, no human has humanoid HD.

Renegade Paladin
2009-01-12, 05:57 PM
Let's not forget, that low level wizards can be killed by a housecat. What can a mob of classless humans do?
Also get killed by the housecat.

:smalltongue:

Jera
2009-01-12, 08:01 PM
So, we have

1. You suspect him of illegal activity.
2. He's an advisor.
3. He has a goatee.

Why haven't you killed him yet?

Because Im the only one who thinks that goatee = BBEG. When we went in front of the Duke to recieve our quest the first thing out of my DM's mouth was;
DM: Behind the Duke is an intelligent, feeble looking man, with a unexplained spark in his eye.
Me: Does he have any distinguishing features?
DM: He has a Goatee.


Paladins are still allowed, right? Everybody loves their righteous crusaders, and the pathetic bit of magic they get isn't really anything. Detect Evil at-will in a world with little in the way of fooling/obscuring it? Sign me up!

I'm not sure, we havnt been that far in the world yet.

There are Clerics but they are more like Mystics(DL) than the traditional 3.X Cleric. Apperantly what they do is give you a sleeping potion, take you into the sanctum then you emerge the next morning completely healed. No one in the group has needed to do this yet, but Im sure there is a plot hook in there somewhere.

Tacoma
2009-01-12, 08:03 PM
You come out with ... a goatee! :smallconfused:

Triaxx
2009-01-12, 08:04 PM
Also get killed by the housecat.

:smalltongue:

No, be mercilessly slaughtered by the housecat.

Shadowbound
2009-01-12, 08:25 PM
No, be mercilessly slaughtered by the housecat.

Dire Housecat?


As for paladins, I'd expect the ruling elite to be unwilling to have anyone around who could detect lies or evil. For obvious reasons.

You can't really organize mobs to lynch Paladins the same way you would with arcane casters, nor can you prevent them from being created (seeing as they're selected by the God(s) and all that jazz).