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Frog Dragon
2009-01-06, 04:39 PM
I know the batman wizard. Using smart preparation, scrolls and other items in addition with stat boosters and a thought out spell selection to be able to beat almost any problem that can arise in the course of the game.

Now my question stands. Is it possible to build an effective batman sorcerer. If it is, how?

Virgo
2009-01-06, 04:47 PM
I know the batman wizard. Using smart preparation, scrolls and other items in addition with stat boosters and a thought out spell selection to be able to beat almost any problem that can arise in the course of the game.

Now my question stands. Is it possible to build an effective batman sorcerer. If it is, how?

Although I'm not an optimizer by any means, I've found Infernal Sorcerer heritage feats (from PHB II) to be useful as I try and expand my sorcerer's ability to cope with new situations. The basic feat gives you a +2 CL boost when summoning evil outsiders, although it doesn't prevent you from summoning Good outsiders, either. Many summons have a useful bonus feat or too that can get you out of a bind (the fiendish wolf gets Track, for example).

A second feat from that same "tree," Infernal Sorcerer Howl, gives you the ability to sacrifice a spell slot as if you'd cast a spell and emit a cone of sonic energy for 2d6 damage per level of the spell slot (fort save for half damage). Even if it's not as flexible as some, it makes me comfortable enough with my direct damage capabilities that I can focus on utility spells for my precious spells known.

Telonius
2009-01-06, 04:54 PM
Yes, but it's slightly more expensive. As a Sorcerer, you have all of the Wizard spells on your spell list - which means you don't need to use UMD to activate a scroll. So almost anything he can do, you can do too (with the right amount of gold).

A couple caveats: You will always be behind the Wizard in the Metamagic department, and Quicken Spell is useless to you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-06, 05:03 PM
Look up Solo's Stupendous Sorcerer Guide.

A Sorcerer can gain quite a bit of power, but not in the same way as the 'batman wizard' does.

A 'batman wizard' has ultimate power, because he can customize his spell list to be able to defeat any encounter he knows he is going to face, and has enough Divination to make sure that he does know about any encounter coming.

Clearly, a Sorcerer's Spells Known list is not nearly so mutable. However, a Sorcerer can get surprising mileage if he chooses the right spells.

To the individual who said Sorcerers are going to be behind Wizards in metamagic, I would politely disagree. In fact, I would say that Sorcerers get greater benefit out of Metamagic, because they don't have to guess which spells will need to be metamagic'd with which feats a day in advance. They just... do it.

Sorcerers CAN get the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, although they have to jump through some hoops to get it. One is simply the PhB II variant which lets them trade out their worthless familiar for an ability to negate the extra time on spontanious metamagic. The other is a Feat which does the same, only is not limited in uses per day.

The key to a Sorcerer's power is the Spells Known list. Get flexible spells you can apply in multiple situations. You may not have the exactly perfect tool for every situation, but you can have all your general bases covered, with scrolls to cover the oddities.

Eldariel
2009-01-06, 05:05 PM
A couple caveats: You will always be behind the Wizard in the Metamagic department, and Quicken Spell is useless to you.

Only in Core. PHBII offers Metamagic Specialist, and IIRC Complete Arcana has Rapid Metamagic, which both solve this for the effective price of one feat. That said, the problem with Sorcerer Batman is having enough spell slots to sufficiently cover all the different forms of offense, while maintaining your defensive ability. You'll need to make far heavier use of Wands and Scrolls. Also, you can't get Spontaneous Divination to prepare for tomorrow always, so you'll probably end up having to learn Divininations.

That said, if Polymorph-line is allowed, you might just be able to do it as those provide you with most defensive options you want along with a good slew of offensive capabilities. So yea, it's doable, just not as easy as for a Wizard that can change spells every day while still maintaining the core hull of solid all-purpose spells (Sorcerer can maintain the core, but switching the style requires just a huge amount of scrolls, and they don't even start with Scribe Scroll).

Darth Stabber
2009-01-06, 05:20 PM
Batman Sorc is going to be a mere shadow of the Traditional Batman Wizard, but still doable. Picking Flexible spells is key. For example, Shadow Conjuration (and it's other versions) Can replicate an entire school of magic. And, as the previous poster noted, Summon monster does a fine job of filling in gaps where you might not have a specific spell to do what you need to get done. But ultimately the limited choices of spells hurts you alot in trying to achieve this goal, and the difficulty with meta magic hurts it even more. Ultimately you're not going to have a spell for every situation, which is why you will see many more blaster sorc than blaster Wiz. You do however get more spells per day, and you are more flexible over the course of one day. Something that was semi mentioned above, is heritage feats, the first one of every heritage feat chain puts spells on your list. Now if you have a really complacent GM, be a human and take 2 heritages for your first 2 feats

That right, if you twist and mangle your family tree to the point were just about everyone in your family played pegboy to one supernatural or another, you may just compare to batman.

Or don't. I recommend don't. If you want to batman it up, be a wiz, even by flavor the batman concept doesn't fit sorc fluff, so interestingly enough the mechanics don't help you do it either.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-06, 05:43 PM
Batman Sorc is going to be a mere shadow of the Traditional Batman Wizard, but still doable. I disagree
Picking Flexible spells is key. For example, Shadow Conjuration (and it's other versions) Can replicate an entire school of magic. Well, not entirely replacing entire schools, but yes, it does make the Sorcerer's life a lot easier
And, as the previous poster noted, Summon monster does a fine job of filling in gaps where you might not have a specific spell to do what you need to get done. Absolutely, they are a very flexable set of spells, doubling as a trapspringer as well
But ultimately the limited choices of spells hurts you alot in trying to achieve this goal, and the difficulty with meta magic hurts it even more. I'm still confused about this 'difficulty with metamagic'. Sorcerers get a LOT more bang for their buck with metamagic than wizards do, because they can apply it as the situation calls for.
Ultimately you're not going to have a spell for every situation, which is why you will see many more blaster sorc than blaster Wiz. No, you see more blaster sorcerers because people like to blow things up. There are a LOT of ways of overcoming the Wizard's flexability.
You do however get more spells per day, and you are more flexible over the course of one day. More spells per day is debatable, particularly with a Specialized or Focused Specialized Wizard.
Something that was semi mentioned above, is heritage feats, the first one of every heritage feat chain puts spells on your list. Now if you have a really complacent GM, be a human and take 2 heritages for your first 2 feats No. Heritage feats are a TRAP. They're like Reserve Feats, but worse. If you MUST do something like this, get a Reserve feat instead. Or better still, grab a couple of Metamagic feats that will help you out much more in the long run.


That right, if you twist and mangle your family tree to the point were just about everyone in your family played pegboy to one supernatural or another, you may just compare to batman. No, you just end up nerfing your character horridly with poor feat choices. Sorcerers are feat-hungry as is, don't go making it worse.


Or don't. I recommend don't. If you want to batman it up, be a wiz, even by flavor the batman concept doesn't fit sorc fluff, so interestingly enough the mechanics don't help you do it either.

I recommend that you don't bother trying to beat the Batman Wizard at his own game. You can still cover 99% of the bases with a good Sorcerer spell list, with greater tactical flexibility thanks to how Metamagic Feats work with Spontaneous Casting. There are some spells that just plain rock. These include things like Disintegrate and Enervation.

Sorcerer's advantage is that he can always 'go back for a bigger hammer'. Did Enervation barely scratch it? Fine, Twin Ray Empowered Enervation. Eat 2d4*1.5 negative levels. NOW let's see how you can resist that Disintegrate, punk. What, you're trying to grapple me? Dimension Door, see ya. No somatic components, so I don't even need Still Spell to pull it off.

A Sorcerer won't be able to out-batman a Wizard. But he can be just as powerful, if not in the same way.

Jack_Simth
2009-01-06, 05:49 PM
I know the batman wizard. Using smart preparation, scrolls and other items in addition with stat boosters and a thought out spell selection to be able to beat almost any problem that can arise in the course of the game.

Now my question stands. Is it possible to build an effective batman sorcerer. If it is, how?
If you have the right sourcebooks in play, yes, definitely. If you don't, you can still make a good showing (the Batman normally prepares the same set of spells most days anyway).

I know of three basic routes (which can be combined) to the Batman Sorcerer:
The Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane PrC).
It takes three feats to qualify (Arcane Preparation (CA), Cooperative Metamagic (CA), and an arbitrary metamagic feat), and costs a bit of gold (initiation plus monthly dues), but gives you access to the Spellpool - a limited number of times per day, it permits you to Call any PHB Sor/Wiz spell (within some limits - see the class write-up) as a full-round action, and you can use it anytime within the next (caster level) minutes. Goes well with a Ring of Spell Storing. You have to pay it back, but can use a different spell to do so. A human Sorcerer can qualify at 5th, to start taking the PrC at 6th.

Psychic Reformation (Expanded Psionics Handbook power - also in SRD).
Under magic/psionic transparency, spells interact with powers the way spells interact with spells, and vice versa. The Expanded Psionics Handbook has a 4th level power called Psychic Reformation (it's also in the SRD), which lets you change skills, feats, and powers known (based on how much XP you can spend, and how many levels back you need to go to change the decisions). Under transparency (which is the default when the XPH is in play), Limited Wish can technically duplicate Psychic Reformation (under the "any other spell of 5th level or lower" clause in Limited Wish, or under the "effects who's power is in line with the above" clause). Under transparency, Psychic Reformation can also let you exchange spells known selections. The 300 xp for Limited Wish gives you six levels worth of decisions without exceeding the standard XP cost - which, for a Sorcerer, will usually be the top three levels of spells known. Requires that the Sorcerer know Limited Wish, though, so this is limited to 14th+.

Planar Binding (Core spell line)
The Planar Binding line (a Core line) lets you Call outsiders, and bind them to a service. It takes a lot of spells known to pull off reasonably safely (the appropriate version of Planar Binding, Magic Circle Against [Insert Alignment of Outsider Chosen Here], Dispel Magic, Dimensional Anchor, and Dismissal), and there are some risks involved (natural-1 on the opposed Charisma check, missed shot on Dimensional Anchor, and so on), but this lets you pick up basically any Outsider - and they've got a lot of different abilities available if you pick the right one. The Batman Wizard prepares the perfect spell; the Batman Sorcerer Calls the perfect Outsider.

There's a partial fourth (selecting very flexible spells known, such as Polymorph and the Shadow line), but that alone will not let you be as flexible as the Batman Wizard.


Something that was semi mentioned above, is heritage feats, the first one of every heritage feat chain puts spells on your list. Now if you have a really complacent GM, be a human and take 2 heritages for your first 2 feats
The Heritage feats aren't really all that worthwhile; if you can swing the Dragon Compendium Bloodline feats, though, take them. They add a spell known at each spell level, 1-9, for the cost of one feat. Those are worthwhile.

Random NPC
2009-01-06, 07:41 PM
There's no such thing as batman sorcerer. It's just Robin Sorcerer

He's good and effective, but just falls a little behind batman. Plus he looks pretty.

Jack_Simth
2009-01-06, 07:46 PM
There's no such thing as batman sorcerer. It's just Robin Sorcerer

He's good and effective, but just falls a little behind batman. Plus he looks pretty.

If the spell progression is all you're worried about, that too can be corrected if you throw enough sources at it - the Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) includes a feat and ritual by which a Kobold Sorcerer can cast as a Sorcerer one level higher than the character level (spells known and spells-per-day included). Use an Unearthed Arcana variant kobold (environmental variant - Desert, specifically) and you even lose most of the mechanical drawbacks of playing a Kobold (for the Sorcerer as a class, anyway).

monty
2009-01-06, 07:51 PM
drawbacks of playing a Kobold

Does not compute.

Toliudar
2009-01-06, 07:53 PM
There's no such thing as batman sorcerer. It's just Robin Sorcerer

He's good and effective, but just falls a little behind batman. Plus he looks pretty.

Random NPC wins an internet.

Seriously, though, folks. An even moderately optimized sorcerer has an extraordinary of tactical options available to them in combat, and probably has a number of out-of-combat things to contribute to a party. They're...they're "Batman Year One" Batman.

Jack_Simth
2009-01-06, 08:05 PM
Does not compute.
Parse error parsing error. Clarification needed:
1) Does not compute: There are drawbacks to playing a kobold?
2) Does not compute: That the mechanical drawbaks to playing a kobold can be lost?

If it's the first, then yes, there are drawbacks - the reduced Con score, the light sensitivity. For a Sorcerer, the reduced Strength is minor.

If it's the second, then you haven't seen the Desert Kobold racial variant. Loses the light blindness, changes up the skill bonuses a little, and trades the Con penalty for a Wis penalty.

Random NPC
2009-01-06, 08:16 PM
Seriously, though, folks. An even moderately optimized sorcerer has an extraordinary of tactical options available to them in combat, and probably has a number of out-of-combat things to contribute to a party. They're...they're "Batman Year One" Batman.

this. :smallwink:

ericgrau
2009-01-06, 08:19 PM
Grrr forum ate my post. Here we go again.

Yes, my first batman caster was a sorceror and it is an excellent class for it. Just load up on battlefield control spells, avoid redundant ones and go to town. They have more prepared spells to choose from at the beginning of the day (yes, beginning, go look) and much more at the end of the day. Spontaneous metamagic adds even more versatility. That increased versatility compared to a wizard is key for a ready-for-anything battlefield control caster. Don't pay attention to any BS about a wizard having more spells to choose from; those are in his spellbook that he can't access until tomorrow. The sorc has more options right now. Do load up on scrolls, metamagic rods, stat boosters, etc. just like a wizard. One mistake I found after playing was that I had too many spell slots leftover, especially low level ones. I'd suggest using those for long duration buffs like heroism or protection from energy. Cast them in the morning.

Disadvantages: 1/2 a level of casting behind, can't cast that divination or other weird spell the party needs tomorrow. Neither of those are significant disadvantages for a battlefield control caster. For the first, battlefield control casters have tons of good low-mid level spells. The second issue is rare and unrelated to battlefield control casting. A third possible disadvantage might be picking the wrong spells. I can PM you my spell list if you want. Almost every single spell from low to high level saw frequent use; I only regretted 1 or 2 and they were low level.

Race: I played a gnome for the con bonus.

Rei_Jin
2009-01-06, 08:29 PM
See, if I wanted to make a batman sorceror, I'd do it with Runestaves and Metamagic Rods. They give you unlimited flexibility, if you can afford them.

Combine that with spells like Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, Alter Self, and Limited Wish, you can definitely do a batman.

If you're really after more flexibility than the Wizard, pick up the Arcane Devotee feat, and worship a deity that grants the Spell Domain. This gives you access to the Anyspell and Greater Anyspell Spells, which are sooo nice as to be painful. Sure, they only work up to 2nd and 5th level spells respectively, but that's the point where you don't have lots of gold to spend on rods and staves, so they help you fill that niche nicely.

Of course, Metamagic feats make it more awesome sauce, so when you can you should definitely pick up those feats you can spare.

Fizban
2009-01-07, 02:30 AM
As the others above have said, you can get quite a bit of flexibility out of a sorcerer with the right books, and you have the added benefit of being able to do it all on the spot, casting a spell multiple times if need be when the wizard might have only prepared one. I love Jack_Smith's Psychic Reformation trick in particular, and always make a point of mentioning it if he doesn't show up for the thread.

Any good Sorcerer will have at least one good: fortitude save spell, reflex save spell, will save spell, no save spell, and a good buff like haste. Those options alone give him something to do in almost every situation. Planar Binding allows for advance acquisition of unkown spells (you can raise the dead as soon as a cleric with a Movanic Deva from Fiend Folio), and the Planar Sorcerer substitution level allows access to the whole line of summon monster spells, limited to celestial, fiendish, or elemental only, for only one spell known in the mid levels. Summon monster spells are most useful with the whole list for spell like ability choices (genies at VII know wind walk, giving you a free non-combat mass flight spell, and leonals at IX have heal and a bunch of other curing effects, for example), but if you're just looking for bodies with grapple and such, it's better to have the most powerful available. Limited Wish in your spells known gives you the ability to change pretty much all your top tier spells, and a scroll or two for 3,775gp each could be a lifesaver before you learn it yourself.

If you don't have enough, you can expand (effective) spells known with the shadow conjuration and possibly evocation spells, a Dragon magazine Bloodline feat, a custom Runestaff (Magic Item Compendium), and a Drake Helm (Explorer's Handbook, cheaper than knowstones, and you can even change what spells it contains!). In any case, you'll be supplimenting your effective spells known with scrolls and wands as needed.

The prestige class Fiend Blooded (name may not be right, but it's in Heroes of Horror) grants several extra spells known while losing a couple levels of casting. The Exalted Arcanist gets the entire sanctified spell list at the end of the 5 level progression. The Sand Shaper (Sandstorm) gets a ton of useful spells added to it's known list at 1st level, including a summoning line, several direct damage and battlefield controls, and the entire animal's ability set. The Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane), as mentioned, basically grants you one spell of your choice per day at your highest level on demand.

Talic
2009-01-07, 02:42 AM
To truly batman, you need to the super-flexible. IMO, the best way to gain this via sorceror is with Shadowcraft Mage / The Killer Gnome build. Your workhorse is a single spell with incredible versatility, freeing up all the other spells for a bit of this and that.

Telonius
2009-01-07, 09:23 AM
To the individual who said Sorcerers are going to be behind Wizards in metamagic, I would politely disagree. In fact, I would say that Sorcerers get greater benefit out of Metamagic, because they don't have to guess which spells will need to be metamagic'd with which feats a day in advance. They just... do it.

Sorry, should have clarified what I was referring to there ... the Wizard gets those bonus metamagic/item creation feats, but the Sorcerer does not. Starting at level 5, Wizard is always going to have at least one more metamagic option available to him than Sorcerer. Sorcerer does get a bit more punch out of the metamagic feats he does have for the reasons you describe. But - just like with his spell list - he has to pay more (for metamagic rods etc.) if he wants the same breadth of options the Wizard gets for free.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-07, 11:10 AM
Sorry, should have clarified what I was referring to there ... the Wizard gets those bonus metamagic/item creation feats, but the Sorcerer does not. Starting at level 5, Wizard is always going to have at least one more metamagic option available to him than Sorcerer. Sorcerer does get a bit more punch out of the metamagic feats he does have for the reasons you describe. But - just like with his spell list - he has to pay more (for metamagic rods etc.) if he wants the same breadth of options the Wizard gets for free.

Any Wizard who is still a wizard after level 5 is doing it wrong, and any sorcerer with full spellcasting PrC is going to eat him for lunch, so those bonus metamagic feats really don't come into play. They get Scribe Scroll for free. Big deal. If they don't bother uber-optimizing and actually get to Wiz5, then they get one bonus feat. It might be a Metamagic feat. It might be an Item Creation feat. It might be on the list of other feats he can grab with it (spell Focus, Spell Mastery, and such).

Also, why bother with Metamagic Rods when there is Incantatrix? Sorcerers do better with this PrC, in general, because there is so much more Sorcerers can do with metamagic.

I would also like to point out that Greater Shadow Evocation = Forcecage + Contingency + Wall of Force. With the right feats, you can get +20% 'real' and not worry about it.

Telonius
2009-01-07, 12:12 PM
Honestly curious here - what PrC can you qualify for, with only four levels of Wizard? Every one I've seen requires at least 8 ranks in something, which you can't have until Wizard5. Have I been missing some kind of big workaround (or splatbook PrC)?

monty
2009-01-07, 02:39 PM
Honestly curious here - what PrC can you qualify for, with only four levels of Wizard? Every one I've seen requires at least 8 ranks in something, which you can't have until Wizard5. Have I been missing some kind of big workaround (or splatbook PrC)?

You can get Master Specialist with only three, and I think there are some others.

Telonius
2009-01-07, 03:19 PM
Ah, that'd be it - I don't own Complete Mage. Thanks!

Eldariel
2009-01-07, 04:30 PM
Also, Cityscape's "Primary Contact"-feat allows an extra rank in a skill, which makes qualifying for some things ridiculously easy (it costs 2 feats though).

Thurbane
2009-01-07, 08:39 PM
The Sandshaper PrC significantly expands a Sorcerer's spell list, as does the similar PrC from Frostburn...

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-08, 03:58 AM
Remember Gandalf that needed his staff? That's what a sorceror needs. Not a staff, mind you, but a spellstaff.

What's a spellstaff? A staff that instead of having charges to cast spells uses up your own spell slots-and its cost is much, much lower than a normal staff's. Essentially, it increases your spells known.

So, for a very low cost, you can place all your divination and utility spells on a spellstaff (those that don't really need metamagic) and use your actual spells known for blasting stuff.

Fizban
2009-01-08, 05:44 AM
They have those. They're called Runestaves, and they're a lot cheaper than an actual staff, if you were suggesting using those for pricing.

The Frost Mage does provide extra spells known, but you have to keep taking it to get the higher level spells, it's class features aren't that great, and the spells you get aren't that great either. I'd stick to Sand Shaper, as you get much more flavorful (if not more useful) abilities, and you end with basically being unkillable as long as you're near a bunch of sand. That's if you're going to take more than a dip, since it get's it's considerable larger and better spell list all at 1st level.

Though it's probably obvious, my post on ways to get extra spells known is meant as an enabler for the batman styled sorcerer. A sorcerer batman can't redesign his utility belt, so he has to make up for it by buying the biggest one he can.

kamikasei
2009-01-08, 05:59 AM
Don't pay attention to any BS about a wizard having more spells to choose from; those are in his spellbook that he can't access until tomorrow.

The wizard has divination spells and simple forethought to look ahead and anticipate what tomorrow will bring, though, and can arrange his spells known for the day according to what's needed instead of having to choose a single lifetime set of spells known that will work every single day.