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View Full Version : Some Advice on non optimized tank/control melee build (DnD 3.5)



Margon84
2009-01-06, 11:09 PM
I have a few questions regarding a Bbn1/Clr1/Ftr 18 build I'm working on. Race is Human for bonus feat, skills, and multiclass restrictions. Dwarf would work too, but lose a feat to gain sturdy and bonus vs. giants etc.

1. Is Mithril Full Plate worth giving up 10 ft of speed for +3 AC (vs Mithril breastplate) I like the idea of being a highly mobile battlefield controller, but don’t want the rest of the party to suffer for lack of a true high AC tank.

2. This character would probably be the only heavy melee warrior in the group, I'm going for a trip build, but instead of Ex. Weapon prof. Spiked Chain, I just picked up Quick Draw to allow me to switch to a non reach tripping weapon (i.e. flail or halberd) for when opponents step inside the Guisarme's range. I just hate being the same as everyone else and spiked chains don't match the flavor of this guy.

3. My Dm likes to mix up the encounters quite a bit, and I have the feeling he would allow alot of the cheese builds, but he would start throwing really insane/bizarre crap at us if he felt I was abusing class features and feat combos too much, so I'm limiting to Core + Complete series.

4. The one level of cleric is to go strength domain for Enlarge, allowing me to trip opponents up to huge size. For those colossal and gargantuan bastards I pick up the Giantbane tactical feat at Clvl 12. This is also a backup for when my DM anticipates the Enlarge + trip routine and dispels it or something. I realize I could just get the party caster to do this for me, but I am in a very inexperienced party and they die frequently on even level encounters, so I don’t trust them to be conscious and alert when I need it.

5. As mentioned in #3 we fight a variety of foes, from undead to huge+ creatures to plain old humanoid protagonists with class levels to bizarre creatures with multiple templates and outsiders . Also we tend to adventure in different settings, from spooky house, to wilderness campaign etc. For these reasons I’m trying to avoid pigeonholing myself into a min/maxed specialist, because I could easily wind up in a non optimal encounter (especially if the DM gets annoyed with too much cheese).

6. For instance I could go Frenzied Berserker using charges and Combat Brute (Momentum Swing) to abuse Supreme Power Attack with a 2 hander, but if I did that you can bet we’d start encountering terrain or obstacles that limit charging. Basically I realize this character isn’t min/maxed because I want to be highly versatile. I like Karmic Strike, but I am trying to lean away from damage dealer towards tank/bg controller. Also, if I over rely on a Karmic Strike build and it becomes abusive, my DM WILL figure out a way to make it a liability. On the other hand if I use Karmic Strike and Elusive Target: Cause Overreach, I get a free attack regardless of whether he misses or hits with his AoO.

7. These reasons are why I went fighter 18 instead of picking up a PrC or leveling the Barbarian (I LOVE the barb’s hit dice, class features: DR, Uncanny Dodge, Tireless and Mighty rage- awesome) Basically I picked up every feat combo there was for a melee so I can keep changing my style when the BBEGs adapt to it.

Whew, after all that, here’s the build:

Bbn1 Power Attack, Quick Draw
Ftr1 Combat Expertise
Clr1 Imp. Trip
Ftr2 Combat Reflexes
Ftr3
Ftr4 Imp. Bull Rush, Extra Rage
Ftr5
Ftr6 Shock Trooper
Ftr7 Iron Will
Ftr8 Giantbane
Ftr9
Ftr10 Close Quarters Fighting, Blindfight
Ftr11
Ftr12 Dodge
Ftr13 Mobility
Ftr14 Elusive Target
Ftr15
Ftr16 Imp. Sunder, Combat Brute
Ftr17
Ftr18 Leap Attack

I’m not married to Leap Attack at 20th level, it just turned out I was one feat short of adding Imp. Unarmed Strike and Imp. Grapple for tying up spellcasters, and without Imp. Grapple I had no reason to keep Imp. Unarmed Stike. So basically I now had one extra feat, but perhaps Karmic Strike would be better at 20th level? I don’t have much experience at high level campaigns; can someone help me out here? I could see Improved Overrun having some synergy with the charging, bull rushing feats, and mobility feats. If we’re running into alot of giant creatures with Improved Grab I could see Clever Wrestling coming in handy.

This Build can switch between a true Tank (Dodge+ Expertise + Elusive Target+ Mobility), A Damage Dealing Charger ( Power Attack, Shock Trooper: Heedless Charge, Combat Brute: Momentum Swing) Giantkiller( Giantbane, Close Quarters Fighting,) Battlefield Control (Imp Trip, Enlarge, Mobility, Tumble(cc), Imp. Bull Rush, Shock Trooper: Directed Bull Rush + Domino Rush) depending on the situation.

And after all this I even managed to pickup the situational Iron Will, Blindfight, and Quick Draw as utility feats. I really think if I could somehow get Imp. Unarmed Strike + Imp. Grapple for taking down spellcasters there isn’t a situation in the game where I couldn’t make a severe tactical dent in the opponent. I realize Cleave and Great Cleave can be awesome, but most of our encounters are against one or two opponents, and even if there are more they are spread out, plus I think an Imp. Trip +Combat Reflexes+ Reach weapon+ Shock Trooper: Domino Rush would be enough to ruin a horde of weenie creatures’ day without missing Cleave/Great Cleave.

As far as equipment I am going for either Mithril Breastplate for 40 ft. movement or Mithril Full Plate for +3AC/30 Ft. movement, with an Animated Shield so I can still tank with a 2 hander. I suppose if I get my hands on some high level items that let me fly/teleport around or run really fast the Mithril Breastplate isn’t really worth giving up 3 AC. At early levels I will probably use a flail to trip so I can use a shield, prior to affording the Animated Shield. Because of the reliance on different weapons depending on situation/gold I passed on weapon focus and specialization.

If I can somehow talk my Dm into letting me take 2 levels of monk and 2 less of fighter I can pickup Evasion, Imp Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Combat Reflexes, as well as + 3 to Reflex and Will saves more than this character has at the cost of 1 BAB and 1 fighter bonus feat (More than compensated for by the three bonus monk feats and better saves). I realize this is impossible without an alignment shift from lawful to chaotic. I am hoping I can explain it as I was raised in a monastery and taught some basic unarmed fighting ability but was kicked out for being reckless and undisciplined, and never learned flurry of blows or the wisdom bonus to AC, to compensate for the alignment conflict. If he’s still a hardass I can offer to give up the monk’s better damage for unarmed attacks as well, since I have no intention of fighting unarmed (unless surprised while naked in the middle of the night).

Note that the monk does not lose these abilities for fighting in armor, unlike other monk abilities- with the caveat that evasion only works in light armor, not a problem if I go with the Mithril Breastplate.

Note also that with the highest level class ignored for purposes of experience penalty for being human (Fighter 16) all the splash classes Monk2 /Cleric1/ Barbarian1 are within one level of each other and thus no exp penalty.

KevLar
2009-01-07, 12:13 AM
I like this build, in general because I always prefer versatility to one-trick ponies and 36541 dmg/round combos...

If you do work around the fluff problems and get 2 monk levels, you don't really need Quick draw: you can attack (and trip) adjacent foes even with your hands full, which is a major advantage in this build.

There's also the Chaos Monk variant, which takes care of alignment and gives you a very fun (and funny) Flailing Strike (random number of attacks, at first level from 0 :smalltongue: to 3) instead of Flurry, for your "I just caught naked and unarmed" needs. But it might be just a tad too obvious that you're jumping through hoops for the sake of the build here.

Improved Unarmed Strike also opens up Defensive Throw for you, which could replace Leap Attack if you're after tactics and not damage. (It's not a fighter feat though, you'll have to rearrange the order and get it at 18th level.)

sonofzeal
2009-01-07, 12:19 AM
Have you taken a look at any of the purpose-built classes for this concept, specifically the Knight (PHB2) and Crusader (ToB)? Both offer excellent out-of -the-box tanking, and some serious BC potential. The Crusader can also DPS quite well, and heal decently. Worth a look!

Also of note is the "Stand Still" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) feat. It's listed under psionics, but it's a "general" feat with no prereqs meaning it's open to everyone.

Margon84
2009-01-07, 12:27 AM
Kevlaar, Thanks for the positive feedback. What supplement is Chaos Monk from? Also, I just noticed that Elusive Target is one of the few tactical feats that can't be a fighter bonus feat so I have to do some fiddling around with the order.

Son of Zeal, I don't have a PhB II, but my DM does so I'll take a look at it. I like the holy warrior archtype for a tank so Knight or Crusader are possibilities (btw what is ToB). As far as Stand Still I know my DM hates Psionics, but if its a general feat that doesn't rely on psionic powers I might try it on him. I happen to have the 3.0 Psionics sourcebook, did they chang Stand Still at all for 3.5? Thanks.

Talic
2009-01-07, 12:53 AM
Min/Maxing involves doing one thing REALLY well.

For example, an ubercharger can do insane damage... If it can charge. Remove the ability to charge, and ubercharger kinda turns into an ordinary fighter.

For the character you have, I'd recommend breastplate over full plate. The 3 AC points aren't going to make a huge difference at levels above 10, but 10 feet of movement can often mean the difference between being where you need to be... and coming up just short.

To that end, weapon versatility. Keep a reach weapon handy. Ideally one with a bonus to trip, to synergize with your improved trip feat. This will extend that influence you have farther over the battlefield.

Complete Champion is in the complete series, and you have Barbarian in the build anyway, so it's worth a gander to take a look at the totem barbarians there.

Also, your turn attempts will be largely useless. So why not get a bit of use out of them? Travel devotion will enhance that mobility concept further, and give you use of swift actions during combat. Alternately, Animal devotion is incredibly flexible, and will open up further options to you, ranging from stat boosts, movement boosts, or even short term flight. Both can gain extra uses from turn attempts. If you're going to focus around having a lot of options for a lot of situations, it's worth some consideration.

EDIT: Further, you don't need monk for attacks/trips with hands full. Anything that gives improved unarmed strike or allows your unarmed strikes to be considered "armed" will suffice.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-07, 01:00 AM
Can you wheedle the Races books out of your DM? Goliaths are non-psionic and come with excellent melee stats and the awesometastic Powerful Build for only +1 LA, easily worth a level of fighter. Give up Iron Will preferably, you're much better off spending extra cash on a Resistance cloak and a Crystal Mask of Mindarmor - never mind, it's from Magic Item Compendium and thus not available - depending on your Wisdom, Blind-Fight might be a preferable loss. I can't remember if Short Haft is in CWarrior or PHBII, but if it's the former, get that instead of Quick Draw - same effect, and you'll only have to pony up the cash for one weapon instead of two.

Talic
2009-01-07, 01:12 AM
Exotic Wpn Prof: Spiked Chain would actually be more accurate, as it allows greater versatility in range. However, Improved unarmed strike is even better, as it allows you to use whatever reach weapon you want, and still have the 5 foot reach.

sonofzeal
2009-01-07, 01:29 AM
Son of Zeal, I don't have a PhB II, but my DM does so I'll take a look at it. I like the holy warrior archtype for a tank so Knight or Crusader are possibilities (btw what is ToB). As far as Stand Still I know my DM hates Psionics, but if its a general feat that doesn't rely on psionic powers I might try it on him. I happen to have the 3.0 Psionics sourcebook, did they chang Stand Still at all for 3.5? Thanks.
ToB means Tome of Battle. Crusaders are like Paladins except way more hardcore (and some of the best BC characters around, as one of their Stances lets them get AoOs off of 5-foot-steps and similar things) and can be of any alignment.

Knights aren't "holy" in any way but must be lawful and do have a Knight's Code to follow; they also get some excellent boosts to defense and can make enemies treat squares around them as "difficult terrain", as well as a "Knight's Challenge" ability to make enemies focus on them.

Stand Still.... well, just follow the link! The main advantage over Trip is that you can stop ANYTHING that way.

Margon84
2009-01-07, 01:31 AM
Talic, I noticed that my turn attempts were wasted and took a look at some of the divine feats in Complete Warrior that convert turn attempts into some other benefit, but decided against them because most were CHA based and I figured with the high STR needed for opposed strength checks on trip and grapple attempts, high DEX (at least 14-16) for Combat Reflexes to pay off, High CON (since I'm really the only tank) and at least 13 INT for feat prereqs and at least 11 WIS for Enlarge this guy was probably gonna have a crappy CHA.

Also, the monk levels aren't so I can make unarmed strikes with my hands full (though I hadn't thought of this and it is a great idea), they're because I can get 3 bonus feats in two levels (Imp. Unarmed Stike, Imp. Grapple, and Combat Reflexes), an efficiency ratio even better than fighter 2 as far as feats are concerned. Without this I don't have enough feats to get Imp. US(prereq) AND Imp. Grapple. Plus, you get Evasion and better saves (+3! to ref/will) which are just icing on the cake, while only losing 1 BAB. This is why I am willing to lose the WIS bonus to AC, Flurry of Blows, and Monk unarmed damage dice as a trade for dodging the alignment restriction.

If I got the monk levels I might drop Iron Will for something else, because the monk saves more than make up for it.

GlyphStone, my DM allows PHB II (he has a copy, I don't) so I will definitely be looking into Short Haft if it does what I think you mean(let you make attacks against adjacent foes with a reach weapon). Alot of the builds on the optimization boards mentioned Goliath, he might allow Races I'll have to check, I know he allows level adjustment races, but I try to avoid them. Remember also that human gives not only a feat but 1 more skill, and this guy needs good tumble(cc) as well as good Climb and Jump for some of his feats.

SonofZeal and Kevlar, thanks for the clarifications and link.

Thanks again for the suggestions, guys.

KevLar
2009-01-07, 01:32 AM
Short Haft is in PHB II, and it uses a swift action to switch from attacking with reach to attacking adjacent foes (with your reach weapon). Which means you can't do both in the same round. Shorten Grip does the same thing without extra actions, but you take a -2 to hit adjacent enemies with your reach weapon, and it's from Ghostwalk.

I'm not sure if Improved Unarmed Strike (without a monk level) lets you attack an adjacent foe with, say, your knee, without letting go of the guisarme. The feat just says "You are considered to be armed even when unarmed", while the monk special ability states explicitly "A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full."
It may be a matter of interpretation, but I'd ask the DM just to make sure.

Chaos Monk is from Dragon Magazine, I'm afraid, you can find it in Crystal Keep.

I second Stand Still as a very nice feat for this sort of build.

Goliaths are nice for Powerful Build and STR bonus, but they come with a -2 DEX (which you need reasonably high for this build). Also, it's a monstrous humanoid and thus Enlarge Person doesn't apply. Of course, you'll have a larger weapon and therefore a bigger reach constantly, but you can't stack both effects.

ToB is short for Tome of Battle. (And a Crusader with the Thicket of Blades stance, a dip in unarmed Swordsage and a few choice maneuvers, is pretty much exactly what you want in a box.) It's a great book IMO, but since it introduces new mechanics for martial characters, it's not everybody's cup of tea - and you can't easily make a character without having the book at hand.

EDIT - Ninja'd by pretty much everyone... :smalltongue:

Margon84
2009-01-07, 01:46 AM
Kevlar, good point on the monk level vs. regular old imp. unarmed stike as a fighter feat for making attacks while hands are occupied. I'd noticed the difference, but wasn't sure if it was a big deal, but if you noticed too my DM cetainly will.
I could see it go either way, since monks are unarmed specialists they might be special in delivering attacks with other body parts, but on the other hand it doesn't say in the feat desription these attacks must be with your hands. Could just be they didn't want to be redundant in the feat description in describing everything, since they already had in the classes section.

I've read briefly about something along these lines on other boards, and I think if you are holding a weapon and make unarmed attacks with other body parts you incur the penalties for two weapon fighting (since your attacks count as armed), a feat tree this build ignores.

The + level adjustment for Goliath wouldn't be bad, because as you said, enlarge person would no longer work, and I could then drop Cleric altogether, but yeah that -2 DEX might hurt. Do they get + to STR or CON?

KevLar
2009-01-07, 01:50 AM
Goliaths get +4 to STR, +2 to CON, -2 to DEX and their favorite class is Barbarian. (There are racial substitution levels for Goliath Barbarians, where rage gives you an extra +2 STR and you become Large, but your reach remains the same for some reason).

If PHB II is in, Defensive Sweep is also a nice fighter feat: if an adjacent foe doesn't move at all during his turn, you get an AoO. Prerequisite is BAB +15.

You might also want to give a look to this build (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=163005) for inspiration, it's a straight Fighter 20 with carefully chosen feats and not much else, and it works like a charm.

RTGoodman
2009-01-07, 01:51 AM
The + level adjustment for Goliath wouldn't be bad, because as you said, enlarge person would no longer work, and I could then drop Cleric altogether, but yeah that -2 DEX might hurt. Do they get + to STR or CON?

Yeah, they get +4 Str, +2 Con, and a host of other abilities. Their stats are available on WotC's website in a preview HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5).


EDIT: Oh, the ninjas... I KNEW I shouldn't have looked up that link...

Talic
2009-01-07, 01:52 AM
I've had this arguement before. Nowhere in the listing of unarmed strike does it state, or even imply, that an unarmed strike is a punch. As long as part of your body can hit, you can use it. There are WotC Rules of the Game articles that support this.

An unarmed strike is simply a strike which uses your body. It is not required to be a fist, or a foot, or a knee, but can be any of those. It is simply an attack which provokes (unless considered armed) and deals nonlethal damage (unless an ability allows you to make it lethal). That's all the rules say about it.

OP, the reason Devotion feats offer greater benefit than divine feats is that divine feats either don't scale or do so off a stat you don't want to optimize.

However, Devotion feats are different. 10 rounds of free movement (move your speed as a swift action every round) once per day... But you get an additional use if you use 3 turn attempts.

Stuff like that. It's a powerful ability at all levels, and gaining even more advantage out of it for having those turns is icing on the cake.

Margon84
2009-01-07, 02:03 AM
Talic, I agree spiked chain is the optimal weapon for this build, but as I said I am trying to be a little unique and not too cheesy. Its just broken that thats the only reach weapon in Core that hits adjacent foes (and gives a bonus to trip attempts if I am not mistaken!)

I also agree that Ex. Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain OR Short Haft would accomplish my purposes for Quick Draw more efficiently (and cheaply not having to buy two weapons), but there are other advantages to having a backup weapon and Quick Draw, like when surprised or disarmed.

Finally, I meant to address your mentions of Devotions before but forgot. In short, they sound awesome, but I am unfamiliar with them; are they in Complete Divine? (I was supposed to get that but my local store didn't have it so I got Complete Arcane for my brother instead), and using turn attempts to boost movement sounds perfect for this build.

Also if the rules support using Imp. Unarmed Strike to hit adjacent foes while still holding a normal weapon, do you incur penalties for two weapon fighting? I am pretty sure if you could kick your opponent for free every turn with no penalty (and even trip) everyone would have it. As you can see this build ignores the TWF tree.

Thanks again.

Talic
2009-01-07, 02:13 AM
Talic, I agree spiked chain is the optimal weapon for this build, but as I said I am trying to be a little unique and not too cheesy. Its just broken that thats the only reach weapon in Core that hits adjacent foes (and gives a bonus to trip attempts if I am not mistaken!) Agreed. I was pointing out several options, and ranking them by what I felt were usefulness. The choice to use any, or none, is yours to make.


I also agree that Ex. Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain OR Short Haft would accomplish my purposes for Quick Draw more efficiently (and cheaply not having to buy two weapons), but there are other advantages to having a backup weapon and Quick Draw, like when surprised or disarmed.No doubt. Quick Draw is useful. But most things you'd use it for, Imp Unarmed Strike does just as well. Exception is drawing a reach weapon, but you can do that as part of a move action anyway, so that's ok.


Finally, I meant to address your mentions of Devotions before but forgot. In short, they sound awesome, but I am unfamiliar with them; are they in Complete Divine? (I was supposed to get that but my local store didn't have it so I got Complete Arcane for my brother instead), and using turn attempts to boost movement sounds perfect for this build.Travel Devotion, and the other Devotion feats, are in Complete Champion.


Also if the rules support using Imp. Unarmed Strike to hit adjacent foes while still holding a normal weapon, do you incur penalties for two weapon fighting? I am pretty sure if you could kick your opponent for free every turn with no penalty (and even trip) everyone would have it. As you can see this build ignores the TWF tree.

Thanks again.If you attack with the weapon you're wielding, the unarmed strike is considered an off-hand attack, and incurs all penalties for 2 weapon fighting. If you do not attack with the reach weapon, then you may attack without penalty with the unarmed strikes.

Basically, what this serves to do is allow you to threaten adjacent squares. The reach restrictions of your main weapon means you are using one or the other, in most cases. But the unarmed strikes give you that up close edge without removing the reach option entirely.

If there is a problem (dm rules contrary), you can substitute improved unarmed strike for Armor Spikes and get much the same effect. 5 feet reach, attack in close. Bonus advantage: You don't need to draw them, they're attached.

Margon84
2009-01-07, 02:24 AM
Ahh I see, I was generally thinking you would be using both reach weapon and unarmed strike in one round (and therefore incur TWF penalty), but unless you face multiple attackers this is unlikely, so you could choose one or the other at no penalty. Excellent point.

Spiked Armor is another great idea I neglected, especially with an Improved Grapple build. Hugs! ;) Thank you.

Talic
2009-01-07, 02:29 AM
Glad to offer possible options for the character. Best of luck in the game. :)

Margon84
2009-01-07, 02:53 AM
One more question on enlarge person. The spell description states that your weapons become large as well and deal more damage as per table 2-2 in DMG. It also states that a humanoid who increases to large has a natural reach of 10 ft. Does your reach on a normal melee weapon (now large size)increase to 10 ft and does a reach weapon (now large size) increase to 15 ft?

If so what area would a large humanoid weilding a large reach weapon threaten, just the outer (15ft) squares (leaving the adjacent and 10 ft. squares unthreatened) OR those as well as the 10 ft. squares, leaving only adjacent squares unthreatend as normal.

Talic
2009-01-07, 03:05 AM
Large creatures double their reach.

Thus, a medium creature with a 5 foot reach weapon will have a 10 foot reach weapon when enlarged.

A medium creature with a reach weapon (10' reach only), will have a reach of 15-20' when enlarged, leaving squares at ranges 5-10' unthreatened.

A medium creature with a 15' reach weapon (such as a whip) will have a massive 30 foot reach when enlarged.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-07, 10:06 AM
Makes you wonder who at Dragon came up with the Awl Pike (1d10 polearm with a 15ft. reach, but not threat at 5 or 10)...

Person_Man
2009-01-07, 02:30 PM
OK, so if I'm reading you correctly, you want a mobile tank who can deal a lot of damage that also has battlefield control, using only Core + Complete books.

How about this:

Any small race
Barbarian 1/Fighter 19

Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Hold the Line, Goad, Karmic Strike, Extra Rage.

Use the Complete Champion Lion Totem Barbarian variant to give up Fast Movement in exchange for Pounce. Use Leadership to get a respectable medium sized mount, or just buy a pack of dogs and invest in handle animal, or ask one of the casters to cast any of the various Mount/Steed spells, or buy a Wand. Charge around the battlefield killing people, then fight off their counter attacks with ease.

You might also want to consider a Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) build. I use Factotum and Skill Tricks as the base, but vanilla Fighter works as well. The only thing you really need to make it work is a one level dip into Master of Masks, which is in Complete Scoundrel. That would give you a ton of flexibility, based on all the different weapons you could carry.

Whatever you do, there is no reason to dip into Cleric. Anyone can invest in the Use Magic Device Skill cross class. Or you can buy a Wand and ask your caster friend to use it on you. Or you can take the Magic Device Attunement feat (Complete Mage).

Eldariel
2009-01-07, 04:46 PM
Cleric is a fine dip though since every Domain is about worth a feat, so you get two feats (or three with Cloistered Cleric), limited spellcasting, free use of Wands et al. and two good saves. Really, Barbarian 1/Fighter 18/Cleric 1 is much better than Barbarian 1/Fighter 19, especially since Fighter 19 gets nothing.

To OP:
I'd consider Fighter Alternative Class Features. PHBII offers "Overpowering Attack" at Fighter 16 (replaces the feat), which allows making one max. BAB attack for twice the damage. Why this is good is because it also doubles the damage of your AoOs. Great for when you want to be controlling the area.

Second, Dungeonscape offers "Dungeon Crasher", which gives you bonuses for breaking things, bonuses against traps and the kicker, huge damage when you bullrush opponents into walls. Bullrushing then not only doubles as battlefield control, but it can also be used for massive damage. Add Knockback [Races of Stone]-feat (requires Large or Powerful Build though) and you can Bull Rush opponents whenever you hit 'em. Since you already have Imp. Bull Rush > Shock Trooper, this could be awesome. Costs you level 2 and 6 feats.

Also, picking up "Thicket of Blades"-Crusader Stance (either two feats, two levels of Crusader or one level of Crusader and one feat; generally the "two levels of Crusader" is the best out of those options) would be awesome. Allows you to take AoO on any movement in your area. Then just add Mage Slayer and everything your opponents do provokes an AoO. Then add Stand Still and Defensive Sweep and all their movement attempts are stopped and then you get an AoO for them not moving.

nightwyrm
2009-01-07, 09:47 PM
Have you considered adding Stand Still? It's a feat in the psionic handbook, but it's not psionic and it's in the SRD. It allows you to use your AoOs to stop people from moving instead of doing damage.

If you have the complete champion, you can trade one of your cleric domains for a domain feat, some of which are pretty nice for a meleer. Law devotion is particularly nice.

ericgrau
2009-01-08, 12:34 AM
1. Mithril full plate counts as medium armor, so you don't lose your barbarian speed. But you do lose AC. That 10,000gp plus the need to pump dex could be better spent when it comes to AC. Try ordinary breastplate with enchantments, plus a ring of protection, dusty rose prism ioun stone and animated shield. Getting AC from multiple sources will be cheaper than enchanting just your breastplate.

2. Okay.

3. That's a shame, as crazy stuff gets old & boring fast. But it's good that you're keeping it under control.

4. Try potion(s) of enlarge person instead of blowing a level in cleric. 50gp each, cheap. EDIT: 250gp for a 1st level potion? Weird. Is this an error? Also note that both the spell and potion take a standard action. So if you don't have a prep round save this tactic for when you need to neutralize something really nasty. Otherwise just use direct damage and kill the little buggers.

5. Despite what you may hear, you don't need a feat to use a special attack. You only need a feat to use a special attack all the time. Sometimes you get a really good opportunity with plenty of plusses from other things and/or a target that sucks on his AoO or doesn't get an AoO at all or the AoO doesn't interrupt the special attack and the damage is small. Plus if you rarely use a tactic, it won't be worth burning a feat on it. IMO stick to improved trip and maybe one other and use that most of the time. Just read up on the other special attacks so you can catch good opportunities.

6/7. The fighter tree is full of excellent general purpose feats. Get every single one. A +1 to hit typically means 7% more hits which means 7% more damage. Unless you have wraithstrike/etc. to auto-hit, that is valuable. Plus compare weapon specialization to power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339). It's too circumstantial unless you go into something stronger right away like leap attack. Some other feats you chose are likewise circumstantial. They sound nice when you finally meet the thing, but a +1 you use all the time is much better than a +2 or +4 that you rarely use. Even when it finally does come up it won't necessarily be enough to save the day, whereas that endlessly used +1 will really add up.

Finally, there's no such thing as a "tank" in D&D 3.5e. You can't pull aggro like World of Warcraft, and monsters will go after softer targets when they can. The sole purpose of your armor is to protect *you* from getting hurt, since you are probably in front and more open to attack. Unlike WoW, by the time the monsters reach the back they could be dead or near-dead from the 1-2 rounds it takes and the AoO(s). Hence the reason why they might just attack you instead. Thus you must balance offense and defense to be a good warrior. Battlefield control from you and/or the wizard gives them even more reason to stay back, thus giving you more opportunity to employ your offense and perhaps more need for your defense. Besides standard methods like tripping others have already mentioned some ways to hold the enemies.

Misc: You can't tumble if your movement speed is reduced by armor. You must either wear light armor - the mithril breastplate - or be a dwarf, since his speed is not reduced by armor. Taking 2 levels of monk without getting things like flurry will hurt your BAB. Like weapon focus 1 point is worth more than you'd think. Ditto for the cleric level.

Keld Denar
2009-01-08, 01:47 AM
4. Try potion(s) of enlarge person instead of blowing a level in cleric. 50gp each, cheap. EDIT: 250gp for a 1st level potion? Weird. Is this an error? Also note that both the spell and potion take a standard action. So if you don't have a prep round save this tactic for when you need to neutralize something really nasty. Otherwise just use direct damage and kill the little buggers.


I think that the price of a Potion of Enlarge Person is a copy/paste error from 3.0 that, like so many other things, was not carried over. 3.0 Enlarge lasted for rounds/level, so a 1st level potion wouldn't be worth much, since its a standard action to quaff, and the effects would be gone before the start of your next turn. Thus, they made the standard issue potion CL5, which multiplies the base price by 5 (thus 50 x 5 = 250). Then, when they printed 3.5, they changed Enlarge to Enlarge Person and upped the duraction to minutes/level, the need for a CL5 potion wasn't there. They didn't change the price, however, and didn't include any info on the CL, other than the blanket "potions are at min CL unless otherwise specified", and its not otherwise specified. So, if you really want to base yourself on using potions for all of your natural male enhancement desires, I'd suggest presenting this arguement to your DM and see what he says. Worst thing is he says no, and you are no further off than you are today.

Also, I'm of the school who believes that a Spiked Chain is the best weapon for the job when that job is BC. All of the other options, Quickdraw, Short Haft, Armor Spikes, etc, all suffer from 1-2 crippling problems that I don't feel are worth sacrificing for. Namedly, if you are gonna spend a feat on Quickdraw or Short Haft, why not just spend that feat on the mechanically superior EWP: Spiked Chain? Why give up your swift actions AND take a -2 AND deny yourself reach when you can invest the same resources and not? And relying on dropping/drawing using Quickdraw is a terribad idea, based on weapon enhancement costs vs effectiveness, and the fact that dropped weapons, regardless of what square they are in, are exceedingly vulnerable to sunders or picking up + teleporting away, robbing you of valuable wealth.

And then there are the 0 feat alternatives, namedly Armor Spikes and Spiked Gauntlets. Both are light weapons, which means you not only lose the 2-1 PA you enjoy with a 2hander, but you lose ALL bonus damage from PA altogether. Thats right, with a light weapon you are getting a 0-1 return on PA...all penalty, no bonus. So, if you PAed in the round before, and someone stepped inside of your Glaive reach and provoked, you'd punch them with your spikes, taking all the penalty you took in the previous round hitting them, but gaining none of the bonus damage which you need. Plus, none of these options address the enhancement fo your 2ndary weapon. DR/Magic is very common, and you can't even penetrate that without dropping an extra 2300 gold or begging an extra 3rd-4th level spell slot from your party wizard/cleric for a GMW. Regular MW doesn't last long enough to be worth the action. Thats not to mention that even if you did, hitting something with your piddly +1 Armor Spikes with no PA doesn't even compare to hitting them with your +1 Holy Wounding Spiked Chain getting 1.5x str and 2-1 PA. Sure, its still a valid attack, but not a very optimal one, and especially when considering a damage driven feat like Standstill, a dramatically inferior one.

For a BCer, a Spiked Chain IS the most optimal reach weapon to use. For a pure damage build, I'd rather use something like a Glaive just to gain the reach, and rely on the ability to take 5' steps in 99/100 situations to keep foes in the smashy range. A BCer doesn't have that luxury, and thus a Spiked Chain is the best weapon for the role.

EDIT: I also like Spiked Chains for the simple reason that Exotic Weapons Master is an AWESOME PrC and the Flurry of Strikes trick is absolutely amazing for anyone who wants to do more damage with their full attacks. Its that good.

Hawriel
2009-01-08, 02:38 AM
As a GM I wouldnt let you just dip into cleric for domaine abilities and the abilite to use divine scrolls or cleric only items. To be a cleric is to be one of the truely faithful the magic the cleric uses is directly coming from a god. No god would grant such power to a sunday worshipper. If that where true every commoner would be multie classes as a first level cleric just for having a holy simbole around their neck or sitting above the herth.

Keld Denar
2009-01-08, 03:06 AM
As a GM I wouldnt let you just dip into cleric for domaine abilities and the abilite to use divine scrolls or cleric only items. To be a cleric is to be one of the truely faithful the magic the cleric uses is directly coming from a god. No god would grant such power to a sunday worshipper. If that where true every commoner would be multie classes as a first level cleric just for having a holy simbole around their neck or sitting above the herth.

See, thats the point, commoners aren't PCs, and thus don't take PC classes. Otherwise, they'd just take levels in Wizard for all of the power and none of the faith. It would be interesting to see an entire village of people running around Colour Spraying each other though.

And class levels are NOT the definition of a character. A 1 level dip in cleric doesn't mean the character is pious for a couple thousand xp, and then gets over it. It just means that the character feels they best further their god's ideas with a more martial background, but relying on the big guy upstairs for that little extra combat kick he needs to do work in his name.

Its been said, and will be said again. A character is more than just the sum of his respective parts. Level dips are prefectly justified. The whole point of 3.5's level system is so you CAN take a couple levels here, and a few there, to build a character that exemplifies the concept you wish him to. Thats WHY its modular, much like Lego's are modular. If you just wanted to buy a fire engine, you'd buy a fire engine and be done. But if you want a fire engine with a swimming pool on it, you can change the way the pieces fit together, pick up a few new pieces, and build a freakin swimming pool on the back of your fire engine. 3rd edition puts some rules on it, in the name of balance, so that your fire engine becomes slightly less good at putting out fires than a straight classed fire engine, but more enjoyable for back yard barbeques on hot days. Thus is the strength of 3rd edition, not the weakness. Stop judging other people by how they choose to play, just because you never got to play with Lego's as a child! :P

Talic
2009-01-08, 05:41 AM
Let's look at cleric 1/Fighter 18/Barbarian 1.

With the right domains you can gain: Weapon focus
Or extra class skills
Or a host of bonus abilities.

With good domain choice?
True Strike
Enlarge person
etc.

Domain spontanaety lets you burn extra spells for more of that spell.

Now, a BAB 19 fighter type...

Or: BAB 20 option:

Barbarian 2 / Fighter 18.

Uncanny dodge. Always keep AC. Much harder to sneak attack you.
totem variants can gain improved trip or other feats.

Both have potential. Both can be used to great effect.

Margon84
2009-01-09, 02:49 AM
As a GM I wouldnt let you just dip into cleric for domaine abilities and the abilite to use divine scrolls or cleric only items. To be a cleric is to be one of the truely faithful the magic the cleric uses is directly coming from a god. No god would grant such power to a sunday worshipper. If that where true every commoner would be multie classes as a first level cleric just for having a holy simbole around their neck or sitting above the herth.

Actually, my idea for this character was that he would worship a martial God like Kord (or whoever is appropriate to the campaign setting). A fighter character who charges around bullrushing and grappling titans (thanks to enlarge) would I think make the Brawler God quite pleased. My idea for this character was someone who really relishes being in the thick of things and testing himself physically against ever mightier foes. A Martial character dipping in Cleric for any Deity who offers the Strength or War domains in no way implies a lack of faith to that deity's principles, simply that he'd rather be serving that deity through actions instead of prayers. If I was dipping into cleric of a god of magic for UMD or some other cheese like that I could see how that would require some justification.

Ericgrau, I know mithril full plate is medium, so I keep Barb speed bonus, but medium armor reduces speed by 10. So human base speed is 30 -10 for Medium armor +10 for barb =30 ft. Whereas with the mithril breastplate (light) base 30+ 10 = 40 ft. Thats what I meant when I said the choice really comes down to 10 ft of speed or 3 AC.

Margon84
2009-01-09, 03:03 AM
For a BCer, a Spiked Chain IS the most optimal reach weapon to use. For a pure damage build, I'd rather use something like a Glaive just to gain the reach, and rely on the ability to take 5' steps in 99/100 situations to keep foes in the smashy range. A BCer doesn't have that luxury, and thus a Spiked Chain is the best weapon for the role.

EDIT: I also like Spiked Chains for the simple reason that Exotic Weapons Master is an AWESOME PrC and the Flurry of Strikes trick is absolutely amazing for anyone who wants to do more damage with their full attacks. Its that good.

As stated above I completely agree that for a tripper anything other than Spiked chain is sub optimal, and yes Exotic Weapon master is awesome, but I'm trying to keep this character unique, and after reading all the optimization boards I just wanted to avoid the stuff that EVERYBODY does like Frenzied Berserker, Exotic Weapon Master, Spiked Chain, Bear Warrior+Warshifter etc.

Also, my fellow players are VERY inexperienced (the rogue doesn't move silently or flank opponents and the Ranger doesn't manyshot, though he has the feat) and I don't want to jump in there TOTALLY overshadow them all ;)

I have all the tables from The Power Gamer's Guide to Warriors and I realize that weapon focus and weapon specialization are a HUGE benefit, but I want to give my DM more flexibility in what sort of loot he can generate. I really want this character to be a generalist, so I realize that in every given fight some of my feats will be useless but in others they will be great roleplaying moments (Giantbane for instance is completely useless in encounters where the opponents are less than huge size) but how epic is it to climb the Giant's back and plunge your weapon into their neck?

Theres a reason this wasn't posted on the optimization boards, but I heartily thank you for the input.

I sort of assumed that Quick Draw would let you Quick Sheath as well, but you're right in that that isn't explicitly stated. Would I have to drop the reach weapon on the ground?

Keld Denar
2009-01-09, 03:20 AM
I sort of assumed that Quick Draw would let you Quick Sheath as well, but you're right in that that isn't explicitly stated. Would I have to drop the reach weapon on the ground?

By RAW, no, Quick Draw does not let you Quick Sheath. Sucks, but thems the apples. If you were to ask your DM, it wouldn't be at all unbalancing to include it though, unless you were abusing Iajitsu Focus, which you are not.

As far as Weapon Focus/Spec, too bad you weren't playing a Warblade. They are able to do some little weapons drills each day to realign their Focus feats to a different weapon. That means you'd only be unable to use the shiney new piece of loot to maximal benefit for a couple hours at most, after which you'd be able to shift those feats over. Most of the people here will tell you that feats that grant static bonuses are underpowered, but I think with the advent of Melee Weapon Mastery and the prelevence of Weapon Focus as a prereq for like, 80% of martial PrCs, it becomes a rather simple pick up for a rather simple gain.

Kaiyanwang
2009-01-09, 09:00 AM
As far as Weapon Focus/Spec, too bad you weren't playing a Warblade. They are able to do some little weapons drills each day to realign their Focus feats to a different weapon. That means you'd only be unable to use the shiney new piece of loot to maximal benefit for a couple hours at most, after which you'd be able to shift those feats over. Most of the people here will tell you that feats that grant static bonuses are underpowered, but I think with the advent of Melee Weapon Mastery and the prelevence of Weapon Focus as a prereq for like, 80% of martial PrCs, it becomes a rather simple pick up for a rather simple gain.

Weapon groups from UA could help?