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cavanaht
2009-01-07, 04:52 AM
I am trying to create a very brutal battle for some naughty players who try to munchkin it up.

My thought is this:
Have a naked caster (cleric or wizard) run up into the players and start smacking people with an unarmed attack. Which provokes. The caster will die in a hurry.
Have a sudden maximized, sudden widen, sudden empowered Death Throes, which would deal 180 damage to everything in a 60ft burst, no save, no SR.

Legal, right? Yes. Mean? Definitely.

Now my main question: Is there anyway to get the caster back into the fight? Death Throes specifically says that your body is destroyed and only a wish/miracle can bring it back. But I'm sure one of you guys knows a way around this. I don't wanna go lich. I would prefer something a little less undead and more human. Because if I can get this to work, my next character is going to do this once he is able. 180 damage! no save, no sr. Awesome.

Cav

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-07, 05:05 AM
Make him a Necromancer, with Corpsecrafter and Destruction Retribution from Libris Mortis, and lots and lots of zombies. Put the battle in an area with a sand floor, with an unspecified number of retribution zombies buried beneath which unearth themselves and stand up from prone one after another. The PCs AoO them, any which are killed will damage the PCs and heal undead around them, the PCs will fight and destroy them thus taking more damage, or if they attempt to flee they themselves will be AoOed. Give the necromancer Tomb-Tainted Soul, also from LM, so that he too is healed by the explosive undead. Use Zombies because they have a lot of hit dice and will therefore deal more damage.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-07, 05:17 AM
This is a stupid and immature idea. Why do you want to piss off the players?

cavanaht
2009-01-07, 05:42 AM
It's not so much to piss off the players. But just to do it. It will definitely be storyline related, meaning they were supposed to die. And if they can somehow stop this guy without the death throes going off, then extra xp their way.

And if I can get this idea to work, I'm gonna play it.

lisiecki
2009-01-07, 05:45 AM
This is a stupid and immature idea. Why do you want to piss off the players?

Ya,

Me and my simple God worshiping mind are with Tsotha on this one.
Your creating an encounter, so that your players characters will die and never come back...

If its story line related, just tell 50% of your players to make new characters


And if they can somehow stop this guy without the death throes going off, then extra xp their way.


Because the melee fighters in the party are suppose to magically know what there going up aganist?

JackMage666
2009-01-07, 05:53 AM
You act like it's hard to not kill someone. Just use Nonlethal damage. I'm not 100% sure if this'll work or not, as I don't know Death Throes source, but that's what I'd do is a naked caster ran up and tried to melee me. Either he's got something up his sleeve, or he's just plain crazy, and it'd be against my ethics to kills a crazy person.

I do like the Undead idea, though, it makes for a considerably fun encounter.

lisiecki
2009-01-07, 05:59 AM
You act like it's hard to not kill someone. Just use Nonlethal damage. I'm not 100% sure if this'll work or not, as I don't know Death Throes source, but that's what I'd do is a naked caster ran up and tried to melee me. Either he's got something up his sleeve, or he's just plain crazy, and it'd be against my ethics to kills a crazy person.

I do like the Undead idea, though, it makes for a considerably fun encounter.

In your set up the caster runs up to you screaming
"Hey, Im a caster! Im not some sort of weird barbarian, or dragon who dosn't need amour, I'm a caster, and im CRAZZZZY!"?

Sorry about that
Not trying to make it sound like its hard to not to kill some one.
However, i can never think of a time that a party i was with has EVER taken some one or something out with nonlethal when we didn't all talk it out before hand.

JackMage666
2009-01-07, 06:25 AM
It's going to be pretty obvious when he runs up and either casts spells or doesn't really do anything worthwhile in terms of damage.

And just because your party chooses to kill everything, doesn't mean every party will. Besides, it's a good lesson to learn - Merciless slaughter isn't always the best route to go.

lisiecki
2009-01-07, 06:27 AM
It's going to be pretty obvious when he runs up and either casts spells or doesn't really do anything worthwhile in terms of damage.

And just because your party chooses to kill everything, doesn't mean every party will. Besides, it's a good lesson to learn - Merciless slaughter isn't always the best route to go.

Yes, you are of corse, correct, after all the OP didn't directly say that he was trying to get his party to kill the caster...


Have a naked caster (cleric or wizard) run up into the players and start smacking people with an unarmed attack. Which provokes. The caster will die in a hurry.

cavanaht
2009-01-07, 07:23 AM
I really do like the exploding undead idea. That's something to consider.

My players would understand. Things happen.

In a campaign I was playing in, we have had a dwarf barbarian who died a marvelous death. But he really liked his toon. So he had a spontaneous resurrection cast upon him, with deity intervention. His alignment shifted to match his deity and he was granted wings. Over the course of the campaign, it worked very well with the story.

PC deaths happen. TPKs happen. The trick is to make them work with the story, not ruin it completely.

Cav

lisiecki
2009-01-07, 07:28 AM
I really do like the exploding undead idea. That's something to consider.
My players would understand. Things happen.
In a campaign I was playing in, we have had a dwarf barbarian who died a marvelous death. But he really liked his toon. So he had a spontaneous resurrection cast upon him, with deity intervention. His alignment shifted to match his deity and he was granted wings. Over the course of the campaign, it worked very well with the story.
PC deaths happen. TPKs happen. The trick is to make them work with the story, not ruin it completely.Cav



Yes, these things do, indeed happen. PC deaths can impact a story, never seen how TPKs do.
"you walk by a red smear, on your way to the village"

Im not doubting your right to do this, but since you seem so focused on it, im curious as to why you would want to tye it to rules at all.
If you want the party to take the damage, then tell them they take the damage.

Talic
2009-01-07, 07:32 AM
About the only way I can see for this to work is with an undead that spontaneously returns. Ghost, Vampire, etc.

Douglas
2009-01-07, 07:41 AM
Death Pact. Death Throes only gives Wish and Miracle as examples because they don't need any part of the body to work, the real constraint is that no spell that requires the body will work. Death Pact is essentially Contingent True Resurrection in exchange for -2 con, and both it and Death Throes are on the cleric list.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-07, 08:33 AM
If you want the party to take the damage, then tell them they take the damage.

This.

If all you want to do is screw the party over, tell them they are now screwed.

Other than that, Talic's idea is probably the best one: use a lich, since then there's no chance of failure (like a ghost has) and no ambiguity about returning (like a vampire has in this situation).

lisiecki
2009-01-07, 08:43 AM
I think I may be feeling a bit more kind than Tsotha-lanti, Im willing to assume that you have a point for this. Although i have no idea how a TPK removing the characters from the game, and removing the possibility they can come back, is good for the game.
The issue I see really is "why use rules in the first place". I take it that it is imperative to your story line that these characters are removed from the multiverse for all time. if that's true, then just make it happen, your the DM and if you think this is that important, you dont have to justify it to any one, just roll some dice behind the screen.
If its not important to your plan, why bother with it in the first place?

kladams707
2009-01-07, 08:59 AM
Death Throes specifically says that your body is destroyed and only a wish/miracle can bring it back.

It also mentaions True Resurrection, so Death Pact would be the way to go (as Douglas mentioned).

Darrin
2009-01-07, 09:08 AM
Now my main question: Is there anyway to get the caster back into the fight? Death Throes specifically says that your body is destroyed and only a wish/miracle can bring it back.

Hmm. You could try Simulacrum or Clone.

Douglas
2009-01-07, 09:14 AM
It also mentaions True Resurrection, so Death Pact would be the way to go (as Douglas mentioned).
Further, it mentions those three spells only as examples. I'm away from my books right now, but this should be a pretty close quote: "Only spells that do not require any part of the body, such as Wish, Miracle, and True Resurrection, will work."

I'd suggest Pact of Return from Heroes of Horror, but that works as per Resurrection (except for not having level loss) which does require some fragment of the body, even if it's no more than a few specks of dust from Disintegrate. Death Throes doesn't even leave that much, so Death Pact seems the cheapest option.

Simanos
2009-01-07, 09:56 AM
I hope your PCs catch wind of your plan and defeat your villain without killing him, then burry him with only his head above ground and have an archery contest on it from safe distance. Nice fireworks and a chance to get a betting game going. 1 shot each please, wait your turn...

The Glyphstone
2009-01-07, 10:13 AM
Howbout a Crafted Contingent Shapechange, trigger being "attack that will kill me", turning him into a Balor? Double the Death Throes, double the TPKfun!

Narmoth
2009-01-07, 02:56 PM
It's going to be pretty obvious when he runs up and either casts spells or doesn't really do anything worthwhile in terms of damage.

And just because your party chooses to kill everything, doesn't mean every party will. Besides, it's a good lesson to learn - Merciless slaughter isn't always the best route to go.

You know, only a true paladin would not kill anything that attacked him.
Now, I might consider resurrecting my kill later if I feel truly sorry for him / guilty / have to do it because of my ethics, but if anything starts to fight, almost no player will try to do anything but kill it.
If you kill players for killing attacking encounters, you are ruining every future game. If they still will want to play with you ( I wouldn't, sorry ) they will stop fighting the encounters they are supposed to fight.
All this sounds as hardcore railroading to me.

Behold_the_Void
2009-01-07, 03:04 PM
I must say this isn't really the best way to deal with troublesome players. Talking out-of-game would probably be a better idea.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-07, 04:14 PM
I know I'm pointing out the obvious ... but still, just use a familiar.

PS. though this works fine for the BBEG looking for an edge, as a PC the XP loss is a bit too nasty of course ... so just find a way to get an animal companion or something, or use bracelets of spell sharing (DMG2).

Eldariel
2009-01-07, 04:15 PM
Simulacrum-suiciders could be fun. Make me think of:
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7244/ghostoo4.jpg

nightwyrm
2009-01-07, 09:33 PM
Magic Jar, people, Magic Jar.

1) You go and possess innocent people
2) cast death throe while possessing their bodies
3) die
4) ???
5) profit

Frosty
2009-01-07, 11:56 PM
Hmm...I have an idea that makes it so you don't die, but it'll cost you exp instead. It's a personal range spell, so cast it on your Familiar instead. And then also cast a billion Explosive Runes on the familiar. Then, fail a dispel check against it.

Keld Denar
2009-01-08, 02:53 AM
I actually played in a Living Greyhawk module that was set on a boat. Some evil demon dude in disguise handed out unlabled potions to his crew, bluffing them into believing that they are Potions of Water Breathing. They are really Elixer's of Death Throes (using the Craft Wonderous rules). They were given instructions that if things to badly, jump in the water after quaffing the potion. Well, the encounter starts with the potions pre-quaffed, and the PCs board the ship and are instantly set upon by pirates with crude weapons. These "pirates" are nothing more than 1 level Experts with ranks in Profession: Sailor. One sailor easily goes down in a hit, having only an AC of about 11 and ~8 HP. One goes down and BOOM! Explosion which probably hits 2-3 others, killing them outright. BOOM BOOM BOOM! More sailors blow up, then more, then more, until the whole crew has been consumed. Now, this may or may not kill any PCs, but since its fire damage, you now have a burning ship that just took more than a couple dozen d6s of structural damage and is probably taking on water faster than New Orleans when the levies broke.

The thing is, even if the PCs use non-lethal damage to take out the sailors, if things go bad, they jump over board to escape capture. Believing that they can breath water, they take a deep breath and skip the con + fort saves part and go straight to the 0 hp and drowning part. Next round, BOOM! and the fireball damages the ship and possibly ignites one of the sailors still on the deck. BOOM BOOM BOOM! and up she goes.

Fun mod, but I'm sure it resulted in more than one player losing a character in a massive nautical explosion. My table prevailed, luckily, thanks to a lot of quick thinking and some well placed flying characters able to fish out drowning sailors.

Irreverent Fool
2009-01-08, 06:38 AM
Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicjar.htm)

obnoxious
sig

Talic
2009-01-08, 07:34 AM
This.

If all you want to do is screw the party over, tell them they are now screwed.

Other than that, Talic's idea is probably the best one: use a lich, since then there's no chance of failure (like a ghost has) and no ambiguity about returning (like a vampire has in this situation).

Any character doint this should probably be at least 15 HD. Ghosts don't have a failure chance at 15 HD.