PDA

View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] The Emerald Legion-Mass Producing Ikea Tarrasques



JeminiZero
2009-01-07, 11:01 AM
Its widely known that the simplest Ikea Tarrasque stacks fire and acid immunity on top of a troll. So that got me thinking: what if some villain finds a way to reliably mass produce such Ikea Tarrasques into an indestructable army? Note that this is merely a thought experiment on how such a villain can build an unstoppable army to further whatever purposes thay may have. I do not intend to send the Emerald Legion against any PCs. I will not take responsibility if your PCs throw dice at you, if you send it against them.

Background

Introduction
-We start with an Evil Cabal of Mind Flayers who want to breed an invincible super soldier to further their nefarious purposes (whatever those may be, it may not necessarily be world conquest, perhaps a bunch of PCs have stupidly burnt down an innocent village, and the Forces that be feel a Tarrasque or falling rocks is too cliche).
-We need at least 3 Mind Flayers in the Cabal to perform the Voidmind ritual, but there can be more as needed.
-At least 1 (and preferably 3 or more) of these Mind Flayers should be a full Psion or Erudite
-At least 1 needs to be able to animate zombies (Wizard, Cleric/Archivist, Dread Necromancer, Warlock etc)
-And of course, they need a safe and reasonably large headquarters to carry out all their production.

Items
-These Mind Flayers would need some means of mass-producing their own custom magical items without burning experience points. There are 2 possible ways to accomplish this
- -Use Pain Extractor/Liquid Pain from BoVD: By permanently reducing the constitution of a victim by 1, the Cabal can extract a vial of liquid pain that can be used to offset enchantment costs by 3 XP. As an evil cabal, capturing and torturing living creatures to death, to craft items isn't a major problem.
- -Thought Bottle: At the cost of 500 XP, you can backup your experience, burn a large chunk of it on crafting, and then restore your experience to a previous level. Because there is still a 500 XP cost involved, it becomes costly in the long run. But at the start, for the large downpayment of setting up, it might be acceptable.

Creatures
-Our Mind Flayers needs to have access to normal Trolls AND War Trolls. The War Trolls should ideally be available as is. In the event they are not, the War Troll description states that they can also be obtained by magical experimentation with the more widely available normal Trolls as a base, although it doesn't give details. We assume such experimentation is not beyond the abilities of an Evil Mind Flayer Cabal.
-Ideally, we would want to use the Air Race (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Races_of_Air) Elemental Variant (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Elemental_Racial_Variants) versions of Trolls/War-trolls. This removes their need to breath entirely, so they won't suffocate ever, even in a vacuum.
-If these species variants are not available, we can make-do with Were-Dire-Sharks (See the section on "Replacing Templates" below).
-They need access to Were-Dire-Bats. (Again if not immediately available, experiment accordingly). They can add more Lycanthropic animals as they see fit, but one that flies is essential.

Setting Up
Firstly the Cabal needs to craft the following items, without XP cost. The Create Food traps have to be made earlier on, but the rest don't have to crafted until after the Troll farms are up and running. Then our Cabal has a few warm bodies to feed to their pain extractor.
-Several Tippy-esque Create Food Traps
-A few magical items that confer 'Spark of Life' while worn (amulets, rings etc).
-A set of Will save boosting gear that grants will save +13 (Wisdom +6, Enhancement +5, Luck +5, Insight +5).
-A few Visards of Semuanya (roll twice for will save)
-Mass produce Clay Half-Golem grafts for Tentacles at 12000 gp + 240 XP (Tentacles count as limbs).
-Mass produce Trollbane Alchemical Goo (Dungeonscape pg 37, stops regeneration for 1 hit when applied to slashing/piercing weapon, 30 gp with DC 25 Craft Alchemy check).
-Depending on whether the Cabal is cheap, they may or may not produce the advanced enhancements listed below.


Production

Step 1a: Breeding the first generation
-First the Cabal captures (Air Racial variant) Trolls and starts a normal Troll Farm.
-Secondly, the Cabal captures or enhances normal Trolls to get (Air Racial variant) War Trolls, and starts a War Troll farm.
-Next they select a few male Trolls and many female War Trolls to enrol in the breeding program.
-They kill the male Trolls and raise them as zombies. We use zombies rather than skeletons, as zombies retain the appropriate reproductive organs.
-Place the 'Spark of Life' magic gear on the zombie male Trolls. This lets them 'come to life'. Their offspring will then have the Gheden template (child of mindless undead) applied to them.
-Have the semi-living zombie Troll males mate with the normal War Troll females
-Notably, the Cabal only need a few males to mate with many many females. So they only need a few pieces of 'Spark of Life' gear.
-The net result should be a bunch of Gheden Half-Troll (Air Racial variant) War Trolls.
-Depending on how you intepret D&D genetics, you might also get some Gheden (Air Racial variant) Half-War-Troll Trolls. Dispose of these as you see fit (e.g. Pain Extractor).

Step 1b: Breeding the second generation
-The Cabal now has to ensure these first generation of Gheden (Air Racial Variant) Half-Troll War Trolls don't go out of control. It is recommended that the Voidmind Ritual is performed on them to ensure they can be controlled, as the next stage makes them rather dangerous.
-Half-Troll changes their type to Giant, allowing the cabal to infect the first generation with Lycanthropy (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lycanthrope). There is nothing in the rules that says an existing Lycan cannot be infected with another Lycan strain, so the Cabal can stack on as many Lycan strains as they want. Each new strain adds more animal HD to the first generation and boosts BAB, saves, HP etc
-For the purposes of this exercise, we only need 1 Lycan strains: one that provides flight. We have chosen Dire Bat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dire_Bat) for our purposes. Depending on your taste any other animal that fits these requirements will do. However Dire Bats have the side benefit of providing Blind-Sense.
-We should now have a bunch of Were-Dire-Bat Gheden (Air Racial Variant) Half-Troll War Trolls. Have them mate with one another, the Cabal should also keep track of who has the same parents to prevent inbreeding.
-Since both parents are the exact same species and the exact same templates, the offspring should inherit all of these. With the difference being that they will have Lycanthropy as an inherited template (rather than acquired) letting them fully control their forms.

Step 2a: Basic Enhancements
-Our Mind Flayer Cabal now performs the Voidmind ritual on the offspring. You need 3 Mind Flayers to perform the ritual, and it is highly recommended that at least 1 is a full psion.
-This ritual grants them additional immunities, spell resistance and ensures the absolute loyalty of the offspring to the Cabal.
-Next the Cabal equips each voidmind with Will resistance boosting gear, and the Visard of Semuanya.
-Finally, using the Trollbane Alchemical Goo to stop temporarily regeneration, the Cabal dismembers one limb and immediately replaces it with a Clay Half Golem graft.
-Upon successful grafting, the offspring gains slashing/piercing immunity which protect it from Trollbane goo, and renders further grafts impossible.
-The offspring must make a will save or become a construct (lose their Con, and hence regeneration) which makes unfit for combat, although they can still serve as slaves.
-To minimize the chances of failure, we tack on sufficient Will save boosting gear so that they only fail on a 1. We also give them the Visard of Semuanya so that they can roll twice and take the better of the two (1/day per Visard, so they need as many of these as production per day). You should suffer only 0.25% attrition rate.
-Note that we choose the limb to be replaced to be the Voidmind tentacle. This is because the tentacles can be retracted into the offspring's head to protect it from sundering.
-Half-Clay-Golem and Were-Dire-Bat is CR +3, Half-Troll is CR +2, Voidmind is CR +1 and Gheden and Air Racial Variant are CR +0. War Troll has a base CR of 12, so the resulting Half-Clay-Golem Were-Dire-Bat Gheden (Air Racial Variant) Half-Troll War Trolls have a CR of 21.
-To save me typing all that all over again, we will henceforth refer to these monsters as the Emerald Legion. This name has historic roots, as earlier versions of the super soldier relied on Emerald Dragon cross-breeding to obtain the desired templates, but that disallowed Half-Clay Golem template application.

Step 2b: Advanced Enhancements
The Emerald Legion still has a few weaknesses, which we can try and overcome with the following gear:
-Ring of Sustenance (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ring_of_sustenance) so that the Legion spends less time feeding/sleeping and more time stomping through cities. (2.2k market price)
-Spellblade weapons (6000 gp each) to protect against the following:
- -Dispel magic
- -Greater Dispel Magic
-We might be able to cram both of the above into one weapon by enchanting a double weapon (e.g. Quarterstaff), and using it as a 2-hander for damage.
-Items to Boost Saves (especially Will and Fort saves):
- -Constitution +6 (36k GP)
- -Wisdom +6 (36k GP)
- -Enhancement +5 (25k GP)
- -Luck +5 (50k GP)
- -Insight +5 (50k GP)
-A custom magic item that creates silence as a continuous effect (2 SL x 3 CL x 2000 gp x 2) = 24k gp market price. Holy Word counts as a Sonic attack and is negated by Silence.
-A +1 armor/buckler with 'Proof against Transmutation' enhancement (protects against Polymorph/Petrification, enhancement value 6, 36k gp market price)
-A +1 armor/buckler with 'Soulfire' enhancement (protects against Death effects, enhancement value 5, 25k gp market price)
-One slot has to be armor, and the other had to be a buckler, although it doesn't matter which is where.


Feats

It is arguable whether the Mind Flayer Cabal can assign feats for their Voidmind minions while they are growing up. But if the Cabal desperately need a minion to have a certain feat, they can resort to Psychic Reformation (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Psychic_reformation) to give it to them. With 12 Giant HD, each Emerald Legionaire starts with at least 5 feats. And they might have more depending on whether they can choose their feats from animal HD. We divide this list into essential and nice to have feats.

Essential
-Steadfast Determination: Most of the things they are not immune to focus on killing them via their Fort save (see weaknesses below). While it is possible to boost their Fort Saves massively, there is still the possibility that they may autofail on a 1. Steadfast Determination prevents this, AND lets them use their crazy high Con score for Will saves in place of Wisdom. Endurance is a pre-requisite for Steadfast Determination, and is obtained free with the Gheden template.

-Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige: From the tome of Magic, this lets a Legionnare make a pact with Haagenti, who will in turn grant them Immunity to Transformation. This lets them revert back to normal form as free actions, if subjected to Petrification or similiar attacks (possibly including Corporeal Instability).

May or May Not be Essential
-Poison Resistance/Poison Immunity: If it is ruled that Trollbane works when applied to dual damage weapons (see the "Weaknesses and Ambiguous Rules" section below), then they might want to take Poison Immunity to protect against Trollbane, as it is considered an injury poison. These 2 feats are from Serpent Kingdoms and require a racial bonus to poison saving throws, which Legionnaires get from the Gheden template.

Nice to Have
-Power Attack: With their high strength, they are best off using 2 handed weapons, this is an obvious choice.
-Flyby Attack: Self explanatory.
-Robilar's Gambit: Since they are virtually invulnerable, the enemy damage bonus of Robilar's Gambit is largely inconsequential. In return, they can make AoOs in retaliation. Combat Reflexes is a requirement for Robilar's Gambit, but they get that for free from the Voidmind template.
-Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Knockdown: Their High strength makes them well suited for knockdown tactics.
-Brutal Throw: lets them throw stuff using their ludicrous strength bonus to hit, rather than use their piddling Dex score. Bring along a stack of darts if they need some kind of reasonable ranged attack, although the maximum range is still just 100 ft.
-Far Shot/Distant Shot/Quick Draw: Tack these onto Brutal Throw, and they can stand just over the horizon, and chuck a barrage of boulders at city walls.



Stat Block (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5689601&postcount=80)


Lowering Risk even more

Considering the significant investment each Emerald Legionnaire may entail, sometimes, the Cabal might not want to risk losing them on a mere scouting mission. They are several ways to send in Legionnaire's without risking a full powered original.

Simulacrum
One of the common Broken Wizard tricks, is to create a self multiplying army of Monsters with Wish as an SLA (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Solar). Essentially, the Simulacra (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Simulacrum) can grant wishes to the wizard, the Wizard wishes for more Simulacra. While the Emerald Legion does not have Wish, their Simulacra will bear most of the original's powers, and is nearly unkillable in its own right. Ergo, a Broken Wizard could mass produce Simulacra of Legionnaire's and send them out to conquer the world.

As a side note, for non-Mind Flayers which want to construct the legion, they might create loyal Simulacra of Mind Flayers to start the process. Although the inability of the Simulacra to progress will limit the Psionics they can manifest through the Voidmind.

Astral Projection
Another Wizard Broken trick, this creates a full powered copy including any equipment he may have. Should your Astral Projection (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Astral_Projection) be killed, you simply awakens back in your original body. Projecting is best accomplished by creating Simulacra of Nightmares (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Nightmare), and having them Astral Project out with you. This way, the Projection is supernatural, and cannot be dispelled. However, it cannot enter an AMF. Furthermore, a few things can kill the projection in such a way that the original dies as well (e.g. Gith Silver Swords, Astral Dreadnoughts).

Fission
Our Mind Flayers can craft items which grant Fission (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fission) when worn. Such items would cost: 7 PL * 13 CL * 2000 gp * 4 = 728k gp at market value.
-When placed on a Legionnaire, he produces a weaker clone.
-This clone is exactly the same as the original- he is nearly indestructable, he can be controlled, his senses can be used, and powers can be used through him. The clone has lower HD and lacks magic gear, but is otherwise just as useful as a standard Legionnaire.
-The clone can be sent on especially dangerous missions without worry. Should the clone die, the original will suffer a negative level, which can be recovered either naturally, or with spells.
-Should the clone be needed back at HQ immediately for whatever reason (e.g. it is under attack), the Original simply takes off the gear, and puts it back on again, and the clone will reappear next to him.
-As with Astral Projection, the Clone cannot enter AMFs.
-Unlike Astral Projection, nothing can kill the Clone in such a manner as to kill the original as well.
-However there is no Supernatural source of fission, so the Clone might be dispelled.



Usage

Shifting Forms
When fighting, the Legionnaire should Shift to Were-Dire-Bat Hybrid Form. This gives them +6 Str, +12 Dex and +6 Con. If they Rage they can get another +4 Str and +4 Con. The stat changes boosts their attack, damage and (especially) their Saves.

World Domination
-By default most things will bounce harmlessly off the Legions many immunities.
-Send the Legion against fortified cities. Watch and laugh as the Legion shrugs off everything thrown at them, fly over the city walls and slaughter the opposing soldier within.
-There are a few things that can hurt the Legion as noted below.
-In such instances, the Mind Flayer masters will be instantly aware of any damage done to their voidmind minions. The Psion Mind Flayer master can use his Psionic's through the Voidmind's body to help fight/destroy these enhanced threats.
-Also, against cities that would likely pack high level mages that would normally be able to neutralize the legion, the Mind Flayer cabal might employ the Null-Psi field berserk trick (see below).
-As the Legion brings down cities, they will gain XP and advance by class levels. Some of these higher level soldiers may be assigned to be the personal guards of the Cabal.

Troll-zilla
By manifesting augmented/extended Expansion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Expansion) on a Legionnaire, you can increase his size to 2 categories, from Large to Gargantuan. This has several uses:
-Size increases raises its carrying capacity (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Carrying_Capacity), if the Illithids need something especially heavy moved.
-It adds +8 size bonus to grapple and +4 size Str bonus, for a total of +10 to grapple. Useful if he needs to out-grapple anything in particular.
-The size strength bonus and increase in base weapon damage lead to increased melee damage output. If he needs that last bit of damage for hammering through some ridiculous DR.
-The size increase may be relavent for preventing certain attacks, such as the Tarrasque (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tarrasque) swallow whole.
-There is the sheer awesome factor of having a monster of mass destruction at your disposal. E.g. If a Tarrasque is rampaging through the lands, the Illithids can send one Gargantuan Troll to pound it into the dust, and then finish it off with Psionic Wish (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Reality_revision). Now picture that scene in your head for a moment. A massive troll going toe to toe with the legendary Tarrasque and coming out on top.

Campaign Ideas
0. The most obvious idea is that the Legion is complete and is rampaging through the land. The PCs must find a way to stop them.

1. Perhaps the Legion is not yet complete, rather the Mind-Flayers are still experimenting with the production protocol. The PCs must find and stop them before they perfect the Legion. Along the way, they fight increasingly advanced and powerful legionnaires. Best used as a side plot to a larger, more overreaching campaign.

2. Or play the other side of the Emerald Legion Setup quest. The world is falling to something (see number 3), and the Mind-Flayers promise they can help reverse the tide. But they want the PCs to help them gather the requisite materials (capture Air Racial Variant Trolls, find schematics for the Half-Clay-Golem graft etc). The Campaign ends with the PCs leading the first completed batch against a BBEG with an equally terrifying army.

3. Normally, the other planes hold creatures far beyond the material plane. The Emerald Legion is loyal, powerful and can be mass-produced, marking a fundamental shift in the balance of power. It is now possible for denizens of the material plane (provided they have the support of mind-flayers) to challenge other planes as they see fit. Is there a celestial/infernal war? Mortals are now mighty enough to intervene. Is an elder evil awakening and unleashing a relentless tide of undead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836)? The Legion can step in and stop them dead in their tracks. The possibilities are endless.



Abusage

This section lists high-end cheese tactics which can be applied to the standard Legionnaire that can break the game even further.

Limitless Power Points
The normal limitation on the Voidmind Template is that only Psionic Powers can be manifested through a Legionnaire. This combined with the limit of 3 mind flayer masters, means that a single Legionnaire can at most only channel the power of 3 Psions (or Erudites) at once, and its masters might run out of power points at the most inopportune moments. Fortunately, there are various methods to funnel limitless power points into any one of the 3 Mind Flayer masters (and which can be done in the safety of the Mind Flayers extraplanar home base). This essentially lets the Mind Flayer Master, and in turn the Emerald Legionnaire manifest without limit.

Spells to Power Erudite
Another possible limitation is that only innate psionic powers can be channeled through the Voidmind link. Whereas in D&D spells tend to be more powerful, and have more support. Fortunately WOTC has given us the Spells To Power Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), letting a Mind Flayer master who took this option to 'cast spells' instead of relying on plain old Psion Powers. This can be very useful should the Legion require some specific spell to defeat a particular enemy. Combine with limitless power point abuse and you can do stuff like, say cast Disjunction every round.

Breaking the Action Economy
Mind Flayer Masters can manifest their innate psionic powers through the Voidmind host. This apparently does not require any action on the part of the Voidmind. Since there can be 3 masters, you can end up with a situation where all 3 are shooting their powers through the Legionnaire at the same time, essentally throwing out 3 powers per round.

But thats not all, the Mind Flayers can attempt to screw the action economy over and gain more actions. Psions can use Schism (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Schism) to let them each use one more power per round. Spell to Power Erudites can use Shapechange to transform into Chokers (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Choker) and gain another Standard Action. This can push the powers per round from 3 to 6.

And of course, since they don't even have to be on the same plane as the Voidmind, they can make their fortified home demiplane time accelerated, letting them take thousands of actions while only 1 round of apparent time has passed for the Voidmind (and more importantly, the enemies it is fighting).

Festering Anger
This is a rather unique disease found in Book of Vile Darkness. Every day, it simultanouesly raises the infected's Strength score with an enhancement bonus, while dealing Constitution damage. However, because the Emerald Legion is immune to Constitution damage, intentionally infecting them with this disease will only cause their Strength Score to go up. Every Day.

Spellblade Tennis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151109)
Since Emerald Legionnaires can wield weapons, you could set up Spellblade Tennis system amongst them. While they need sleep, as an army, they can work in shifts. So that as long as any 2 of them are active, they can sustain the Spellblade Tennis between them.



Emerald Legion: Strengths

Their most important strength is that the protocol can be easily enhanced. As mentioned before, only 1 Lycan strain was applied to the parents, but there is no theoretical limit on the number of strains you can use, short of:
1. The size limitation (must be medium to huge animal to infect large creatures) and
2. However many were-animal strains the cabal can lay its tentacles on. Adding more Lycan strains does not significantly increase the production cost per Legionnaire (beyond the paltry sum needed to maintain a stock of the suitable Were-Animals). Go through the splat books, note down suitable animals, and stack their CR/HD/HP/BAB/Saves skyhigh.

Immunity to Damage
-Unlike normal Trolls, only acid damage is lethal for War Trolls, all other damage is non-lethal.
-With the Gheden template, they are immune to non-lethal damage (and death from massive damage), so any damage that does not ignore regeneration, is ignored entirely (including holy water which is normally a Gheden weakness, and spells which normally bypass Clay Golem magic immunity).
-With the Voidmind template they are immune to acid damage, what would otherwise be their one weakness. In fact with Half-Clay Golem, he is healed by magical acid.
-In short, without stopping their regeneration, they cannot be brought down by HP damage, not even hotter-than-normal-fire damage like divine fire and hellfire, which was a problem for half Gold Dragon normal trolls.
-One previous weakness was Trollbane Alchemical goo, which stopped regeneration. However it has to be applied to Slashing/Piercing weapons. Half-Clay Golem counters this by giving them immunity to Slashing/Piercing damage. In instances where attacks do bypass their regeneration, they also have 10/admantine & bludgeoning and 5/magic DR.
-Immunity to Slashing/Piercing also helps protect against Vorpal weapons.

Immunity to Common Secondary Effects
-Air Racial Variant, gives them immunity to suffocation, letting them fight underwater or even in vacuum.
-They are immune to mind affecting, ability damage/drain and energy drain through the Voidmind template.
-They are immune to Stunning through the Gheden template
-They are not outright immune to polymorphing, but their Lycanthrope Shapechanger subtype lets them revert back to their normal form if they are polymorphed.
-While they have Haagenti bound, they are immune to other form changing attacks (petrification, Corporeal Instability: (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Chaos_Beast) and similiar effects), and can revert to their normal form as a free action.
-Clay Golem Magic Immunity stop many spells, even epic ones, so long as it allows SR
-Magic Immunity is not Perfect, it still allows some spells through. However, Voidmind also grants seperate Spell Resistance of HD+10 that can help fend these off. How many HD it has, depends on how many and which Lycan strains they were infected with. The Emerald Legion as decribed thus far has 16 HD and therefore SR 26.
-Although not immune to disease, most diseases kill by ability damage or drain. So they can be infected by many diseases without suffering any ill effect. If some of these diseases can be spread by secondary contact of a previously infected individual, the Mind Flayers might be able to turn the Legion into "Plague Walkers", that bear disease without ill effect and spread it on their enemies. A list of contact diseases can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147055).


Combat
-If they extend their Voidmind tentacle, that provides an extra attack with improved grab and constrict.
-When in Dire-Were-Bat animal form, they benefit from flight.
-When in Dire-Were-Shark Hybrid form, they gain +6 to Str, +12 to Dex, to +6 to Con, which boosts their attack, damage and saves.
-With the Gheden templates, its aging upon maturity is slowed to 1/4, although it is by no means immortal.
-If assisted by its Mind Flayer Psion master, the Voidmind can serve as a conduit and manifest its master's powers. This permits them to do stuff like teleport a squad into the middle of an enemy fortress. Or manifest Adapt Body (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Adapt_Body) to prevent death from environmental causes.
-While possessing potent natural weapons, they are still fundamentally Giants, and as such can use equipment as needed, to compensate for shortcomings, or e.g. bypass specific Damage Reduction.



Emerald Legion: Weaknesses

For all their immunities, they are still vulnerable to several things. We divide them into things we can try and overcome with equipment, and things we cannot.


Weaknesses compensated with Equipment
Emerald Legionnaires with the advanced enhancement gear listed above, are immune to the below, but their equipment can destroyed by Sundering and Disjunction. Against Disjuntion, the best we can do is boost Will saves to minimize the chances of Disjunction succeeding.

Equipment can also be temporarily disabled by a targetted dispel, so we use Spellblade weapons to help protect against normal and greater dispel magic. But non-spell Dispels might still take effect (e.g. Dispel Psionics, Voracious Dispelling/Devour Magic).

Their Magic Immunity protects them from spells and SLAs, but they can still be affected by Su abilities (and to a lesser extent Ex abilities). All the listed effects below have to be supernatural or extraordinary, but can be blocked by protective gear.
-Supernatural Death effects
-Supernatural Holy Word series of spells
-Supernatural Petrification (Although they ca revert to normal with Haagenti bound)

Weaknesses not compensated with Equipment
Some Weaknesses have no available equipment to block them. Many of these kill based on a Fort Save, so it is imperative that we get their Fort save up as high as possible, and give them Steadfast Determination, so that they won't autofail on a natural 1.

-Positive Energy Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm): Each round they must make a DC 20 Fort save or explode due to having TOO much HP. As is, their Fort save is high enough to succeed the save every round, but they still run the chance of autofailing on a 1. They need the Steadfast Determination feat to garuntee survival.

-Supernatural Graymantle: Graymantle is a level 5 Wizard/Sorcerer spell that stops regeneration, letting them get hurt. Normally, it allows Spell Resistance, but casting this spell as a supernatural ability allows it to overcome magic immunity. However it still allows a Fortitude save. The best we can do is amp up saves and add steadfast determination.

-Supernatural Trait Removal: Trait Removal is another level 5 Wizard/Sorcerer spell that removes one Supernatural or Extraordinary Ability from the target. This lets an enemy say, remove any one of the Legions many immunities. This spell comes from Serpant Kingdoms, the same book that brought us the totally broken Sarrukh. Most of what was said about Graymantle applies to this spell as well: It normally allows SR, but if cast as a supernatural ability, it can bypass that. It still allows a Fortitude save after that. (boost saves, add Steadfast Determination. Are you beginning to see a pattern here?)

-Sphere of Annihilation (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sphere_of_Annihilation): Destroys anything that it touches with no save. Available to Epic Binders (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a). However, bringing the sphere into battle isn't always advantageous for enemies of the Legion. It is possible to contest for contol of the sphere, and with multiple Mind Flayer Psionic Telekinesis support, a Legionnaire has more than a fair chance of winning that contest. Alternatively, Spell to Power Erudites can spam gate to destroy the Sphere.


Weaknesses and Ambiguous Rules

Because of the multiple template application, some things may or may not affect the Legion depending on how you intepret the rules. All of these are essentially the domain of DM fiat.

Supernatural Disintegrating effects
To appreciate the rules problem that this entails, we first need to appreciate how Disintegrate has changed. In 3.0, Disintegrate was a Save or Die that simply gave the target a fort save or be turned to dust. Back then, Disintegrate did NOT deal HP damage, which lead to the following text in the description of regeneration:


Attack forms that don't deal HP damage (for example, most poisons and disintegration) ignore regeneration.

In turn, various monsters have Supernatural Disintegrate abilities that apparently draw from this 3.0 version of disintegrate, being a simple "Save-or-Turn-to-Dust". Known examples are:

-Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm) Disintegrating Touch.
-Pyroclastic Dragon (Draconomicon) Disintegrating Breath.

When the Disintegrate spell was updated in 3.5, it now dealt HP damage, and only turned the target to dust if it reduced the targets HP to 0. But not all monsters with Disintegrate abilities were similiarly updated. This background is important, because it helps one understand why Disintegrate the Monstrous Ability, differs so much from Disintegrate the 3.5 spell, even though they have the same name.

Now, the Magic Immunity on the Clay Golem (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Clay_Golem) graft specificies that:



In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A disintegrate spell slows the golem (as the slow spell) for 1d6 rounds and deals 1d12 points of damage.


So for an Emerald Legionnaire, regardless of whether you use the 3.0 or 3.5 version of Disintegrate spell (or the supernatural version of the spell as used by Beholders), it is "converted" by his Magic Immunity to 1d12 hit point damage, which in turn, can now be negated by regeneration.

Here is where the rules start to get ambiguous: It is uncertain whether these various Monstrous Supernatural Disintegrate abilities would be similiarly affected by the Clay Golems Magic Immunity (i.e. does it still force them to save or be transformed into Dust, OR is it changed to deal 1d12 damage and slow). If it is transformed, then these various Disintegration effects would be similiarly negated by the Legion's immunity to HP damage, dealing nothing more than a slow effect.

It can be argued that the latter case should be the correct one. Principally, Disintegrate (the Spell), ignores its infinite SR (from magic immunity) entirely but its effects are reduced to 1d12 HP damage. So it stands to reason that Disintegrate (the Supernatural Ability) which ignore SR anyway should have the same effect. A precedent is set in the Clay Golem description for its Magical Acid Healing, where Black Dragon's Breath (a supernatural ability) heals the Golem.

If you take the intepretation that supernatural Disintegrate effects are not transformed by clay golem immunity, all is not lost however. We can still do the usual of amping up saves, and adding steadfast determination.

Extraordinary Brain Eating Attacks
Most notable present on Illithids and Half-Illithids. In theory, the Voidmind ritual replaces most of the Troll's brains with self-repleshing Psionic Slime, so it is not certain whether this attack would work. There is also the question on how exactly does the Illithid get through its skull since it is immune to slashing/piercing damage.

Trollbane and dual damage weapons
The text of trolbane poison simply states that "A successful hit with a slashing or piercing weapon that has been coated in trollbane will expose the target to the poison". It does not explicitly cover what happens in the event poison is applied to a weapon that deals both bludgeoning and piercing/slashing damage (such as a Morning Star), and the target is immune to piercing/slashing damage.

It can be argued that since trollbane requires slashing/piercing weapons to deliver the poison, a creature that is immune to both types of damage will not be exposed to the poison even if weapon bearing the poison incidentally also did bludgeoning damage. However not everyone may agree with this.

If you take the intepretation that dual damage weapons can apply Trollbane despite slashing/piercing immunity, Trollbane can still be blocked by Poison Immunity (which can be acquired by feats as described above), since it is an injury poison.



Antimagic/Null-Psionics Field

This is an interesting exception, being both a strength and a weakness. While in the field, the Legion becomes immune to all the above weaknesses. However, at the same time, they lose their ability to shift into hybrid form, and hence their flight. Furthermore the link to their Mind Flayer masters is a Supernatural ability, and so is severed and they regain free will.

Thats not always advantageous for the enemies of the Legion. Being half undead golem trolls means they are evil and will attack relentlessly even without their Master's influence. And while within the field they are virtually impossible to kill. So, using an AMF them won't stop them from wailing on their targets, and makes them much harder to kill.

Oddly enough, a Mind Flayer Psion Master can manifest Null-Psionics field through the voidmind, intentionally severing the link, making the Legionnaire far more tougher. He can also dismiss his own Null-Psi field and regain control of the Legionnaire. In this way, the Null-Psi field serves as a "Frenzy" button. So the Mind Flayers can e.g. teleport an Emerald Legion squad into the middle of a fortress, activate Null Psi-field, wait until the screams stop, and then dismiss Null-Psi to regain control of the squad.

AMF, Freedom and Emerald Legion Welfare
There is one item that creates a permanent Antimagic field- Antimagic Shackles (132k GP). Should a Legionnaire manage to obtain one while free of his master's influence, he could voluntarily put them on himself, thereby freeing himself permanently from the control of the Cabal. (Yes, shackles set them free). That said, their Masters could easily try to sunder the shackles to regain control. E.g. Within an AMF, Legionnaires can't fly. So they could use another Emerald Legionnaire, and fire off Crystal Shards from a safe distance.

Furthermore, every self-respecting Mind Flayer cabal should school themselves in the Evil Overlord List (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html).



48. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge.


Possible things to improve their lives:

-Flavor their Food: Add prestidigitation to the create food traps, so that the Legions will think about the tastiest gruel they ever had back home, before choosing between helping the masters volutarily, and attacking and destroying said home.


Other Notes

-By RAW, Grafts have no statistics of their own and can't be attacked or damaged separately from the creature to which they are grafted (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=5). So in theory, enemies shouldn't be able to Sunder the half Golem grafts. But we put it on the retractable tentacle anyway just in case.
-If they need to mature their trolls in a hurry, the Illithids can use Genesis (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Genesis) to create a Demiplane where time passes at an accelerated rate. They can then put their trolls on the plane and they will age faster.


Replacing Templates

Replacing Air Race Variant
If you cannot or otherwise do not want to use Air Racial Variant, another possible template which grants Water Breathing is Amphibious, a +0 LA Template from Stormwrack which can be applied to Monstrous Humanoids, which includes War Trolls.

However, the fluff in Amphibious states that such creatures are occasional anomalies, rather than something that can be systematically bred. As such, they theoretically cannot be used for mass production, although obviously the laws of your universe (read DM fiat) may decide otherwise.

Alternatively, you can add a Lycanthrope template that provides Water Breathing of some sort. For this I recommend using Were-Dire Sharks (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dire_Shark), which not only provides water breathing, but also a Size increase to Huge and swallow whole.

Note that both of the above *merely* gives them Water Breathing which isn't as powerful as Air Racial Variant's total suffocation immunity (E.g. they can now suffocate in Vacuums). Hence, if you do decide to use these instead, you will probably want to add Necklace of Adaptation (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Necklace_of_Adaptation) (Market Price 9,000 gp) to their standard equipment list.

Replacing Gheden
Gheden is the ONLY template used in the Emerald Legion that comes from Dragon Magazine, and which might not be permitted in some circumstances. An alternative would be to use a Lycanthrope with Ferocity (e.g. Dire Boar), which allows a Legionnaire to keep fighting even when he drops into the negatives, thereby rendering non-lethal damage ineffective.


Edit History

-Switched to Crystal Troll/Emerald Dragon
-Added note that this is merely a thought experiment
-Crafting without XP via pain extractor
-Quirks with the Antimagic/Null-Psi fields
-Use Half-Scrag to qualify for half-golem grafts
-Re-added Stained Glass half golem graft, how to reduce graft attrition. Added how to protect graft from sundering.
-Changed Stained Glass to Clay to protect against Trollbane Goo.
-Changed to Winged War Troll to get round type pyramid problems
-Added Will boosting gear to Advanced Enhancement list to help against Disjunction
-Changed Winged to Were-Dire-Bat for shapechanger subtype to protect against polymorph
-Added note on Fission gear
-Added note on Emerald Legion Welfare
-Added more potential feats: Robilar's Gambit and Knockdown.
-Converted to Epic Lycanthropy
-Added possible Campaign Ideas
-Revised layout a little, elaborated on AMF, Freedom and Drowning
-Added section on Abusage.
-Added Spellblade Tennis and Note on Poison Immunity
-Added note on Disintegrate ambiguity.
-Added Replacing Templates
-Replaced Were-Dire-Shark with Air Racial Variant


So:
1. Your general thoughts?
2. Anyway to to protect their equipment from:
-Sundering
-Dispel Effects
-Disjunction
3. Anyway to protect them against:
-Sphere of Annihilations
-Umbral Blot Disintegrating Touch
-Pyroclastic Dragon Disintegrating Breath.
-Supernatural Graymantle
-Supernatural Trait Removal
4. Any other way to give cheaper or more permanent protection from:
-Holy Word
-Death effects
-Petrification
5. Besides those already mentioned, any other holes in their defenses I might have neglected?
6. Any other suggested Feats (especially those that boost defences)?
7. Any other Campaign Ideas?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 11:10 AM
3. Any other (cheaper) way to give permanent protection from Death effects?
Vampirism?

JeminiZero
2009-01-07, 11:17 AM
Vampirism?

Unfortunately, that involves turning them into undead, which loses their Con score and negates the (unkillable) benefit of Regeneration (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Regeneration).

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 11:26 AM
What about finding some way to make it a Living Construct?

Burley
2009-01-07, 12:46 PM
WotC has a downloadable PDF with Half-Construct/Golem templates. You could throw that it, if it has what you want?

PinkysBrain
2009-01-07, 01:27 PM
CR is only a rule of thumb, being a munchkin DM doesn't make much sense ... if you want to kill PCs with an encounter which by rule of thumb has low EL there are more straightforward ways.

D Knight
2009-01-07, 04:11 PM
if i am correct there is a armor enchantment that negats polymorph unless you want it to. it may be in the MIC but i will check.

bosssmiley
2009-01-07, 04:58 PM
tc;dr (too cheesy; didn't read). You lost me at 'breed with undead'. :smallamused:

There are easier, more elegant ways of achieving the desired result. For example, take Troll stats, add the Construct or Living Construct type, change trollish regeneration to 'fast repair' or something. Use. Don't tell the players these are reskinned trolls. Chortle evilly as they scrabble for workable tactics against these unstoppable killing machines. :smalleek:

Darth Stabber
2009-01-07, 05:07 PM
I believe that war shaper has an ability that lets you just undo any polymorph effects as a swift action on your next turn, however that may not work so well given that you would probably find it hard to train your kritters to meet the prereqs. Honestly I would say good old fasion SR would do the trick if you could find a way to give it to then.

KillianHawkeye
2009-01-07, 05:29 PM
1. Kill some Female Trolls and raise them as mindless undead. Some necromantic tinkering is required to make them fertile. Offspring of fertile mindless undead applies the Gheden template granting immunity to nonlethal damage, stunning and death from massive damage.

I have never heard of this before. Source?

Fax Celestis
2009-01-07, 05:47 PM
You know, Divine Rank 1 is exactly what you need.

Immune: polymorph; petrification; any attack that alters its form; energy drain; ability drain; ability damage; mind-affecting effects; electricity; cold; acid; disease; poison; stunning; sleep; paralysis; death effects; disintegration.

JeminiZero
2009-01-07, 08:24 PM
I have never heard of this before. Source?


Its found in one of them Dragon Magazines I believe. The important details are listed in Crystal Keep's template list.


CR is only a rule of thumb, being a munchkin DM doesn't make much sense ... if you want to kill PCs with an encounter which by rule of thumb has low EL there are more straightforward ways.



There are easier, more elegant ways of achieving the desired result. For example, take Troll stats, add the Construct or Living Construct type, change trollish regeneration to 'fast repair' or something. Use. Don't tell the players these are reskinned trolls. Chortle evilly as they scrabble for workable tactics against these unstoppable killing machines. :smalleek:

This was really more of a thought experiment on how Villains might build an unstoppable army (on the cheap) to take over the world, rather than anything meant to be thrown at players.



You know, Divine Rank 1 is exactly what you need.

Immune: polymorph; petrification; any attack that alters its form; energy drain; ability drain; ability damage; mind-affecting effects; electricity; cold; acid; disease; poison; stunning; sleep; paralysis; death effects; disintegration.


At which point the Golden Army becomes a literal army of Gods. :smallbiggrin:

But anyway, short of Pun Pun-esque cheese, how might our Mind Flayer cabal award Divine Rank 1 to an army of Golden Gheden Voidmind Trolls?


WotC has a downloadable PDF with Half-Construct/Golem templates. You could throw that it, if it has what you want?

Not bad, just tacking on 1 Stained Glass limb in particular is somewhat cheap at 2000 gp + 40 xp. Our Mind Flayer cabal tacks on resistance boosting gear and spells before performing the operation, to help ensure the Golden Gheden Voidmind Trolls make their will save (if they lose their con score, their regeneration becomes useless). There will still be a 5% attrition rate at this stage due to those which fail their saves on a natural 1.

That said there are ways of bypassing the magic immunity. Plenty of opposing monsters have Death/Polymorph/Petrification as Su abilities (because as you try and take over the world you are likely to encounter these). Some classes like Dweomerkeeper can cast Wail of Banshee as an Su ability, dropping your clustered troops all at once. I would hope for true death/polymorph immunity outright.

Edit: Actually, using Half Emerald Dragon Crystalline Trolls would protect them against hotter-than-normal-fire damage, like hellfire and divine fire.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-07, 08:47 PM
Just create your own monster and quit trying to create some obscure mindflayer, dragon, troll hybrid monsters that is highly unlikely to ever happen and that will annoy your PCs.

JeminiZero
2009-01-08, 04:53 AM
Just create your own monster and quit trying to create some obscure mindflayer, dragon, troll hybrid monsters that is highly unlikely to ever happen and that will annoy your PCs.


Again, this is not meant to take on PCs. I've editted the original entry to note that.

Also, its not exactly "highly unlikely to happen". The way its set up, these critters are being intentionally mass produced.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-08, 05:25 AM
Remember how Liz melted down the golden crown in the movie?

Anyone with Hellfire or corrupt flame can burn your army despite its fire immunity.
Anyone with Graymantle can remove regeneration.
Anyone with Vile damage can overcome regeneration.
Anyone with "Word" spells modified to ignore Spell Resistance can destroy your army due to its low HD.
A high-level fighter with a Vile Lance or Cursed Weapon can kill your army.
Anyone with Earthquake spells can kill a significant number of your troops due to their low reflex saves.

And these are just the non-cheese ways out there.

Athaniar
2009-01-08, 05:52 AM
What's an Ikea Tarrasque, really? A monster in need of assembling?

Fizban
2009-01-08, 05:58 AM
Consider how many ways there are to remove the SR from a holy word spell (or any spell for that matter). As far as I know, it's pretty much Dweomerkeeper and only Dweomerkeeper. The whole point of using the crystilline troll seems to be that it's regeneration very specifically states that it only takes normal damage from sonic, which means that hellfire is still useless, and vile quite probably is too (the troll entry is more specific than the vile entry, thus it wins). Graymantle allows SR, so they're immune to it. Earthquake will indeed kill up to 1/4 of all creatures in the area, provided they weren't flying, as these large half-dragons are.

Two problems: One, there's no written way to succesfully breed an undead, so while everything else works as written, you're out of luck there. I'm not sure what benefit they're getting from that one though, care to explain it's use?

Two, the exceptions presented in the templates probably apply after those in the main entry, so for example the Gheden Crystalline Troll's vulnerability to holy water is more specific than a normal Crystalline Troll, so it would take damage from the holy water. So they do have at least one glaring vulnerability in holy water.

Edit for the ninja: yes. The Ikea Tarrasque is a term used for creating a monster that is extremely hard to kill by combining a base monster and multiple templates and/or other reasonably permanent effects. As the OP said, the usual starts with a Troll that is immune to acid and fire damage, thus giving it regeneration effective against all damage. It's usually a thought experiment, as if one were used in actual play, it would be very hard to justify and would be nearly impossible to kill without telling the players exactly what it was made out of so they could compare immunities and find a weakness. The mind flayers in this scenario give some justification, and the base of special troll+creature that is immune to it's only weakness is pretty easy to come up with, as is the grafting of golem parts when you consider the illithid grafts that already exist, but to actually use them in play would be wrong unless the DM had already told the players he was going to min-max creatures within the CR system (which is absurdly easy, and isn't even needed since the DM can just say "you fight the tarrasque, and gain no xp if you kill it).

Edit for the OP ninja below: SR beats the words and graymantle anyway. Vile damage is in the Book of Vile Deeds, though I think it shows up in a couple later books without much explanation. It's damage you can't heal without jumping through a bunch of hoops because it's eeeevil. Hmm, looking it up, I see no reason why a C. Troll wouldn't regenerate it by the rules as written. The intent is probably that vile damage wouldn't regenerate, but since regeneration converts all damage except that of a certain type into nonlethal, vile would still be converted.

JeminiZero
2009-01-08, 06:01 AM
Anyone with Hellfire or corrupt flame can burn your army despite its fire immunity.


I've switched to Crystalline troll, so that Fire damage is non-lethal rather than rely on Fire immunity that can be bypassed via hotter-than-normal-fire.



Anyone with Earthquake spells can kill a significant number of your troops due to their low reflex saves.


They can all fly (large size + half dragon template).



Anyone with "Word" spells modified to ignore Spell Resistance can destroy your army due to its low HD.


Won't Death effects immunity protect against PW:Kill? I'm still looking for suggestions on how to give these troops immunity to death effects (and polymorph).



Anyone with Graymantle can remove regeneration.
Anyone with Vile damage can overcome regeneration.
A high-level fighter with a Vile Lance or Cursed Weapon can kill your army.


I'll have to look these up. Whats their source?

Also, thats assuming the high level fighter isn't dusted by the Mind flayer Cabal. They can use their voidmind minons senses and manifest their powers through their trolls from a safe distance.

Edit: Ninja'ed. To answer the above questions:



One, there's no written way to succesfully breed an undead, so while everything else works as written, you're out of luck there. I'm not sure what benefit they're getting from that one though, care to explain it's use?


Gheden provides the Dead Nerves quality granting immunity to nonlethal damage and death from massive damage. Without it, the Trolls can still enough non-lethal damage to be knocked out and than coup-de-graced. With it, all the damage that they take as non-lethal damage (via regeneration) is essentially ignored', so they can still function fully after being hit by, say, a million arrows.



Two, the exceptions presented in the templates probably apply after those in the main entry, so for example the Gheden Crystalline Troll's vulnerability to holy water is more specific than a normal Crystalline Troll, so it would take damage from the holy water. So they do have at least one glaring vulnerability in holy water.


Thats an interesting point. Doesn't regen convert that to non-lethal damage?

kamikasei
2009-01-08, 06:02 AM
What's an Ikea Tarrasque, really? A monster in need of assembling?

A low-budget Tarrasque made by putting together a lot of mix-and-match components.

Athaniar
2009-01-08, 06:06 AM
Aha, it is what it sounds like, then.

Fizban
2009-01-08, 06:18 AM
(New post to avoid more edit ninja shenanigans).

*Facepalm* Right, so that's an important one then.

Actually, I'm not sure about the holy water. The main exception is taking damage in the first place, but it doesn't specify lethal damage. So, it takes *damage* from the holy water, which is then converted to nonlethal by the regeneration, and ignored by the dead nerves. Could work.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-08, 06:33 AM
Ways to ignore SR off the top of my head:

1) Dweomerkeeper (duh)
2) Warlock with Supernatural Transformation
3) Get the spell as SLA, then Supernatural Transformation
4) Use spells with SR: no (duh)
5) The enchantment/illusion specific base caster class whose name I forget.
6) Eldritch Theurge combining a spell with vitriolic blast-makes the spell ignore SR and deal acid damage. Then use mastery of elements to turn it to sonic.
7) Use cursed magic items that don't allow SR even when the original spell does.

JeminiZero
2009-01-08, 07:24 AM
6) Eldritch Theurge combining a spell with vitriolic blast-makes the spell ignore SR and deal acid damage. Then use mastery of elements to turn it to sonic.


Half Emerald Dragon, immune to sonic damage. Unless its louder-than-normal-sonic damage that somehow bypasses immunity.



7) Use cursed magic items that don't allow SR even when the original spell does.


Otherwise, I presume you referring to the 'Cursed' weapon enchantment. (I am assuming you don't mean you want the Trolls to pick up and use some cursed magic item in order to kill them?) Where is this found and what does that do?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-08, 07:52 AM
Cursed magic items refers to just that; cursed magic items. You then force the troll to "pick up" the item-usually by supernatural telekinesis.

Curse Weapon is also a spell that makes damage dealt by a weapon unhealable until a dispel magic is used. It allows no SR for the victim. It is unclear wether regeneration would turn that damage to nonlethal but in any case it will not heal. Your trolls, ofcourse, are immune to nonlethal so this is a moot point-but see below.


The main problem with your tactic is the 4th step. Grafts require XP so mass-creating them may cause problems. In addition, somebody strong enough (say, a wizard dragon-polymorphed into a wartroll or pit fiend) could tear the grafts out or sunder them. Finally, the average troll has a will base save of +3. Even with the best resistance gear, that's a will save of +12. You still have a higher than 5% chance of ruining the offspring.

A secondary problem lies with step 1. The only spell that makes mindless undead fertile is spark of life-but they stop being undead for the duration and the duration is too short anyway.

JeminiZero
2009-01-08, 08:28 AM
if i am correct there is a armor enchantment that negats polymorph unless you want it to. it may be in the MIC but i will check.


I checked Crystal Keep's weap/armor enhancement list. There is an enchantment called Proof against Transmutation, which does indeed protect against polymorph/petrify, but its a +5 enhancement equivalent. Plus the fact the armor has to be +1 to start with puts its cost into epic territory.



Curse Weapon is also a spell that makes damage dealt by a weapon unhealable until a dispel magic is used. It allows no SR for the victim. It is unclear wether regeneration would turn that damage to nonlethal but in any case it will not heal. Your trolls, ofcourse, are immune to nonlethal so this is a moot point-but see below.


I would reason that since Curse Weapon does not state that it overcomes regeneration, it doesn't. So the damage is still non-lethal and the trolls would shrug it off.



The main problem with your tactic is the 4th step. Grafts require XP so mass-creating them may cause problems.


A fair point. I was thinking of making one of the Mind flayer cabal members be one of those master artisan artificers who can crank out stuff without XP cost.



In addition, somebody strong enough (say, a wizard dragon-polymorphed into a wartroll or pit fiend) could tear the grafts out or sunder them.


I should look up the rules for sundering/tearing out grafts. Unfortunately they don't seem to be in the SRD. Anyone knows where they are found?



Finally, the average troll has a will base save of +3. Even with the best resistance gear, that's a will save of +12. You still have a higher than 5% chance of ruining the offspring.


Actually, Crystalline Trolls start with a base will save of +4. So the best gear will push it to +13. They will make their save on a 2 vs DC 15. The attrition rate *should* be 5%.



A secondary problem lies with step 1. The only spell that makes mindless undead fertile is spark of life-but they stop being undead for the duration and the duration is too short anyway.


That depends on how long it needs to remain "alive". If its just long enough for the act of breeding to be complete, and the foetus can gestate normally when the mother returns to undead form, then round/level is long enough if the male dragon prepares himself appropriately.

If however, it needs to remain alive until the child is born, then you have a problem. We would probably have to enchant items that confer spark of life as permanent effect while worn (once again, a master artisan artificer would be most useful).

Edit: Actually, in view of all this, the best defence might be an antimagic field. It would block Gray Mantle, Cursed Items, and all the other death and polymorph effects (including wizards shape change), and you could drop the stained glass golem template. Anyone know how to (chepaly) add antimagic field to a Emerald Gheden Voidmind Crystalline Troll?

Darrin
2009-01-08, 09:17 AM
There will still be a 5% attrition rate at this stage due to those which fail their saves on a natural 1.


Adding the Pride domain (via Cleric dip or Planer Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment) would drop this to 0.25%.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-08, 10:21 AM
Dungeonscape's Trollbane alchemical weapon goo steps on your regeneration, btw.

Douglas
2009-01-08, 10:24 AM
Won't Death effects immunity protect against PW:Kill? I'm still looking for suggestions on how to give these troops immunity to death effects (and polymorph).
I think he was talking about Holy Word and its equivalents which, regardless of what they actually do, are not death effects.


I checked Crystal Keep's weap/armor enhancement list. There is an enchantment called Proof against Transmutation, which does indeed protect against polymorph/petrify, but its a +5 enhancement equivalent. Plus the fact the armor has to be +1 to start with puts its cost into epic territory.
No it doesn't. Epic is +6 in the enhancement bonus only or +11 total. As long as the enhancement bonus is +5 or lower, no single ability is +6 or more all by itself, and the total is +10 or less, it's not epic.

Khatoblepas
2009-01-08, 10:31 AM
The main problem with your tactic is the 4th step. Grafts require XP so mass-creating them may cause problems.

A fair point. I was thinking of making one of the Mind flayer cabal members be one of those master artisan artificers who can crank out stuff without XP cost.

I'm not sure whether you need Humanoids to be the target of Liquid Pain (reduces the amount of crafting XP needed when subsumed in making it!) but I believe it reduces the target's CON by 1 for every dose it takes. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm AFB at the moment.

(I'm assuming you're thinking pure RAW, and trap cheese is okay)

Electricity spell trap (using shocking grasp, or a Elemental Substitutioned Ray of Frost?) + Pain Extractor + Shambling Mound = Infinite crafting XP, eventually. You'll just have to make it part of your factory.

Alternatively, you could just use a sequential Polymorph Any Object Trap to produce hapless commoners. Since Liquid Pain is based off of Con (I think.) it would be easiest to use Mongrelfolk.

Pebble -> Mongrelfolk
Mongrelfolk -> Mongrelfolk.

From out of the clay rises a grand harvest of pain! Then, when the mongrelfolk die, you recycle them through a dispel magic trap, and they come out good as new as new mongrelfolk. Of course, this is irredeemably evil and nasty and you should be ashamed of yourself, but since you're going for the thralls of mind flayers, mindless undead foetus dragon troll golems, I don't think this will be a problem.

Also, wow. Half Golem grafts are dang cheap.

JeminiZero
2009-01-08, 10:43 PM
Arrgghh! I suddenly realized that with the Half-Dragon template, the type is changed to Dragon and golem grafts cannot be applied to Dragons!

Well its back to the drawing board.


Dungeonscape's Trollbane alchemical weapon goo steps on your regeneration, btw.

Any ideas on how this might be overcome?



I'm not sure whether you need Humanoids to be the target of Liquid Pain (reduces the amount of crafting XP needed when subsumed in making it!) but I believe it reduces the target's CON by 1 for every dose it takes. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm AFB at the moment.


Noted.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-08, 11:19 PM
Weld the golem legs on before you make them half-dragons. Does that work?

(Surely you can make a half-dragon without intercourse, right? ...do trolls even have sex? I think they reproduce via mitosis.)

JeminiZero
2009-01-09, 05:15 AM
I've added a note on the pros/cons of using Antimagic/Null Psionics with the legion.



Weld the golem legs on before you make them half-dragons. Does that work?


Unfortunately they have to be born as half dragons first, and only after that can we think about applying grafts. They can't acquire the half dragon template after birth. There is the Dragon disciple PrC, but that cannot be reliably incorporated into the mass production protocol.



(Surely you can make a half-dragon without intercourse, right? ...do trolls even have sex? I think they reproduce via mitosis.)


The text entry for trolls states that female are slightly larger than male trolls, so yes I think they do have intercourse.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-09, 05:41 AM
Unfortunately they have to be born as half dragons first, and only after that can we think about applying grafts. They can't acquire the half dragon template after birth.

Why's that? I mean, the Dragon Disciple shows that it's possible. Where is it actually written that sex is the only way? Hell, you're already somehow breeding dragons with undead, right? No, you actually justified that. Wow.

Or: you could give them another inherited template that changes their type back to something applicable.

Half-Troll makes its base into a Giant, right? Is a +2 CR too much? Or, alternatively, Half-Scrag--solving your believability and your underwater viability problems simultaneously.

(Half-Troll also gives Fast Healing 5 as an extraordinary ability, which helps a little with the trollbane problem. With the Half-Scrag, though, that only works while underwater.)

Khatoblepas
2009-01-09, 06:54 AM
Arrgghh! I suddenly realized that with the Half-Dragon template, the type is changed to Dragon and golem grafts cannot be applied to Dragons!

You need Emerald Dragon for the Sonic Immunity, right? Well, a Silence spell blocks all Sonic effects. Just have them carry around a permanent item of Silence. Order them to be willing. Get the craft materials from Liquid Pain.

Have the Elder Brain place as many Magic Mouth spells on them as you can muster (Elder Brains have a high CL, so with a couple of boosts, you could easily load your army.) This will ensure that the area dispelling wizards will waste their spells on dispelling Magic Mouth. And if they dispel the silence for 1d4 rounds? Carry spares. On every soldier.

Also, consider Explosive Runes, too, at a very low CL. If they try and dispel the Silence, they might instead trigger off ER, and 6d6 force damage is nothing to sniff at, considering it's completely free. AND the enemy wastes a spell to do it. AND you're immune to the damage.

If you're considering crafting equipment, you'll need to get the money as well as the XP to create stuff. Each Golem requires 40xp and 4000gp to create. That's 13.333 doses of Liquid Pain. But you can also get Dark Craft money from sacrificing someone. The Mongrelfolk idea will give you 14 doses, and to get 4000gp you need to have a high Know (Religion).

Get yourself a priest with it. With a few cheesy tricks and a bard, you'll be able to get a lot of bonuses, maybe even up to a check of 100, if you have a Human Cleric of Your Mindflayer God. You gain x5 your check result in Dark Craft GP. So sacrificing Mongrelfolk after you're done with them gives you MORE resources. Of course, not even the most lenient of rules will allow you to sacrifice the same pebble twice, but that's what Wall of Stone is for. ^^

You might think that the Constructs (1 in 20 of the monsters you make) would have no use due to them having no regeneration and them being uncontrolled? Try rebuking them (Warforged Domain, you can use Mister Knowledge Religion) and using them as slaves in your factory. After all, they're not useless. Or train your Crystalline Trolls to have Endurance and Steadfast Determination.

Whatever method you use, this will take ages. If you have a complex that creates the stone and polymorphs it constantly, and the set up costs meaning that you're using Dark Craft to make more pain extractors... this will take decades to come to fruition.

And then you have to make sure your army doesn't make dumb mistakes, like marching through a portal to the Positive Energy Plane.

JeminiZero
2009-01-10, 09:42 AM
Or, alternatively, Half-Scrag--solving your believability and your underwater viability problems simultaneously.


Oddly enough Half-Scrag does not provide water breath, only swim speed. Still thats better than nothing I suppose. Although at this point, I calculate the beasties have a 20+ Str modifier, so they can succeed on swim checks (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Swim_%28Skill%29) in stormy water (DC=20) even on a 1.

However, to incorporate Half-Scrag into the already complicated breeding process was somewhat difficult. I have tried my best but I'm not sure if it works as described (you can read through the breeding process and let me know).

I've also replaced Stained Glass graft with Clay, to protect against Trollbane Alchemical Goo.

Also, Half-Ogre at +0 CR has this interesting little ability:



Giant Blood (Ex): For all special abilities and effects, a half ogre is considered a giant in addition to the base creature's type and subtype. Half-ogres can use magic items with racially specific powers as giants.


I wonder if "special abilities and effects" includes the Hlaf-Golem graft. If so, I can replace Half-Scrag with Half-Ogre and knock 2 points of the CR.



Well, a Silence spell blocks all Sonic effects.


Good point on the silence. I realize that it would protect against Holy Word as well. That said, with items of silence, the main threat isn't Area Dispel (which only targets spells not items), the main threat is disjunction (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mage%27s_Disjunction) which simply wipes out all magic in the area.



You might think that the Constructs (1 in 20 of the monsters you make) would have no use due to them having no regeneration and them being uncontrolled?


They are still voidminds, and would hence remain slaves to the cabal, even if they become constructs. Its mainly not having regen thats the problem.

And I'm still looking for ways to protect against supernatural Graymantle. Anyone have any ideas?

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-10, 10:18 AM
And I'm still looking for ways to protect against supernatural Graymantle. Anyone have any ideas?


Target: One living creature

Does that help, or would changing the "living" thing deactivate regeneration?

Flickerdart
2009-01-10, 12:05 PM
Does that help, or would changing the "living" thing deactivate regeneration?
Becoming undead or construct loses you CON, so regeneration vanishes.

The traditional Ikea Tarrasque also calls for the Lernean template, I believe, which regenerates everything except the heads (which are immune to the acid and fire needed to cauterize the wound) and grow back. Half-Clay Golem Lernean Ash Rat Swarm is immune to everything, I believe, and a single such rat is CR 8. Or maybe there's a template I'm forgetting.

Aether
2009-01-10, 07:39 PM
Question.


Once you have four finished Emerald Legionaire, how do you make more of them? If I remember correctly, any piece you cut off of a Troll... grows into a Troll. However, it kindof sounded like fluff...

But even if that is the way it works, wouldn't you also need several additions such as the Voidmind template and Clay Golem grafts? So... are you going to be having your EL's breeding with each other, or using the original process with the Crystalline Trolls and Scrags and Spark of Life stuff...

Also, how did you get around the whole "Half-Dragons can't accept Golem Grafts."



More questions. Where do Voidmind, Gheden, Crystalline Trolls, Emerald Dragons, Clay Golem Grafts, and Spark of Life magic come from? Can you gimme a link, or should I go searching the Templates and Bestiary stuff in Crystalkeep?


What size are these monsters? What are their stats? What are their reach? How many attacks do they have? What weapon will you give them? (I'm partial to the Greatcleaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101513) because I just saw it on the first page of this subforum...

How do they deal with exhaustion, fatigue, sickened, diseases, poisons, being scared/terrified, confused?

How do you make sure their equipment isn't destroyed? Besides people getting desperate enough to catch oozes/gelatinous cubes and sic them on you, it's possible that the amount of damage from spells, rains of arrows, e.t.c. would simply be ruled as demolishing your monster's equipment.

What about using illusions to screw with them? Like hiding some kind of portal to the positive energy plane (which was mentioned) or ..?

Blindness? Invisible/ethereal creatures?


The Savage Species feat Prehensile Tail might be interesting... if you have a tail attack from half-dragon... or you could houserule the feat to apply to your golem-grafted voidmind tentacle...

Savage Species also have Desmodu-made Breathing Masks... which provide 4 hours of air. Good against noxious fumes and being underwater! Cheap at 1000 gold. The mask is 50gp, and air supply takes a DC 20 alchemical check, costs 950gp.

Also, Savage Species have the Feral and Multi-Headed creature templates. Improved Grab, Pounce, Rake, Rend, Darkvision, Fast Healing from Feral--as well as stat boosts. Multi-headed gives +2 HD, Con, Listen, Search, Spot Checks and +1 AC... per head! A large creature can have 3 extra heads. Multi-headed also gives it Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes Feats. The base creature also gets Superior Two(or Multi) Weapon Fighting if it can use weapons... or it only has natural attacks (which, if it's Feral, may be the case) it instead gains Improved Multiattack Feat. So no penalties for multiple weapons or natural attacks...

Multi-Headed Creatures can also be Learnean... regrowing 2 heads for each chopped off, in 1d4 round. And this Emerald Legionnaire is immune to Acid and Fire. But now, not only are Vorpal Weapons ineffective... they actually make things worse! MORE bite or breath weapon attacks! Heck, if you have Learnean Multi-Headed beasties, you should probably have them all decapitate each other before a battle and thus go in with double the amount of heads they normally do...

Khatoblepas
2009-01-10, 11:03 PM
And I'm still looking for ways to protect against supernatural Graymantle. Anyone have any ideas?

It's a Fort neg. spell, right?

A raggamoffyn using Control Host on your soldiers will give them Construct traits, and change their type to Construct, without making them lose their Con score. You can probably build 5HD constructs with ML5 (1 level in a class or maybe Hidden Talent, 5 HD, and Practised Manifester) and Metamorphic Transfer + a Psychoactive Skin / Alter Self to turn them into Tatterdeanimals. The only problem is you need to get round the Shared Damage ability, which splits all damage the host creature takes between the two creatures. You can mitigate this somewhat with an item of Share Pain (with host creature, who is then immune to it), and Shield Other on the host, but this will mean the polymorphed creature takes 12.5% of the damage the host takes, which isn't good at all. Remember that with Dark Craft, magical items are no object.

This should adequately protect your army. Remember that your army shouldn't just be invincible on it's own, since it's just a load of freaky trolls. You should also, as a Cabal, have war leaders, and other units too, not just nigh-invincible armies. An army of the same unit is a bad idea. Consider the range of Mordenkainen's Disjunction. It's Close. You'd need the wizard to be pretty damn in danger before he can even hinder your army. Thus, you have strike force teams nestled in your troll army. Warlocks, maybe, or even other mages. Some Illithids for good measure. Archers, too. Your army will mow them down before the wizard even gets there, what with your superior evil crafting. (Bows, maybe? Possessed by some other fiends to enhance their capabilities? Leadership feat for each troll. Yum.)

But you should never suppose that making these guys invincible IS actually the answer.

JeminiZero
2009-01-11, 07:33 AM
Once you have four finished Emerald Legionaire, how do you make more of them? If I remember correctly, any piece you cut off of a Troll... grows into a Troll. However, it kindof sounded like fluff...


I don't think trolls have that extent of regeneration. It needs the body, or at the very least the section of the body that holds the head, to regenerate back to 1 troll.




Multi-Headed Creatures can also be Learnean... regrowing 2 heads for each chopped off, in 1d4 round. And this Emerald Legionnaire is immune to Acid and Fire. But now, not only are Vorpal Weapons ineffective... they actually make things worse!


Ah yes. Vorpal. I forgot about that nasty little enchantment. I wonder if Half-clay golem Slashing immunity protects against it?

Going 3 Multiheaded Learnean would add +5 to CR and push it to 20, placing it into Tarrasque near epic territory. Although the resulting monster would be far more dangerous as well (the head holds 2 natural attacks, Bite and Tentacle, so adding 2 extra heads would add 4 natural attacks, not to mention the 2 extra 6d8 sonic breath weapons, which is usable once every 1d4 rounds with Dragon Breath feat).

I'll also have to think about how to incorporate Learnean Multiheaded into the breeding protocol.



But even if that is the way it works, wouldn't you also need several additions such as the Voidmind template and Clay Golem grafts? So... are you going to be having your EL's breeding with each other, or using the original process with the Crystalline Trolls and Scrags and Spark of Life stuff...


ELs breeding with one another is probably a bad idea as it will quickly lead to inbreeding. Keep in mind all of them have 2 grandparents in common (the Emerald Dragons). The cabal would likely produce more from the Trolls and scrags.



Also, how did you get around the whole "Half-Dragons can't accept Golem Grafts."


By applying the Half-Scrag template at the end, which switches their type back to Giant. I would have liked to apply template with +0 CR, but there don't seem to be any other.



More questions. Where do Voidmind, Gheden, Crystalline Trolls, Emerald Dragons, Clay Golem Grafts, and Spark of Life magic come from? Can you gimme a link, or should I go searching the Templates and Bestiary stuff in Crystalkeep?


Look up crystal keep for templates, use the search function to navigate quickly. It should have most of the details you want. Crytal Troll and Voidmind are both in MM3. Spark of Life may be found in the Spell Compendium.



What size are these monsters? What are their stats? What are their reach? How many attacks do they have?


Large. Haven't fully calculated, 10 ft by default, 15 ft for voidmind tentacle. 4 natural attacks, (2x Claw, 1 Bite, 1 tentacle).



What weapon will you give them? (I'm partial to the Greatcleaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101513) because I just saw it on the first page of this subforum...


Whatever you want. They have natural attacks, but as Giants (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Giant), they are proficient with Simple and Martial weapons.



How do they deal with exhaustion, fatigue, sickened,


They don't. The main point of the EL is that it can't be stopped. it can be slowed down (as Hellboy did the Golden Army) but over time, they will win by attrition simply because you can't kill them. The above conditions merely impose a penalty on their stats, but won't actually kill them.



diseases, poisons


Virtually all poisons and diseases deal ability damage and drain, and they are immune to both. So they can be poisoned/diseased, but they won't be affected by it.



being scared/terrified, confused?


Immune to Mind affecting.



How do you make sure their equipment isn't destroyed? Besides people getting desperate enough to catch oozes/gelatinous cubes and sic them on you,


Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anyway to protect their equipment. I am still looking for more permanent ways to give them all those immunities without relying on gear.



it's possible that the amount of damage from spells, rains of arrows, e.t.c. would simply be ruled as demolishing your monster's equipment.


Strictly speaking, by RAW, unless an attack specifically targets your equipment, it doesn't do anything to the gear. Which is why PCs can salvage armor in perfect condition from their dead foes, after igniting an entire necklace of fireballs at point blank range.



What about using illusions to screw with them? Like hiding some kind of portal to the positive energy plane (which was mentioned) or ..?


Which is why they need the supervision of a Mindflayer psion. The Psion can observe from a safe distance via scrying, and then issue orders via the telepathic link. The psion can rely on true sight, touch sight, detect psionics and what not to detect stuff like that.



Blindness? Invisible/ethereal creatures?


As above, neither Invisible nor Blindness will stop them, only slow them down. Although the overseer Psion can also buff them with touchsight (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Touchsight). Ethereal creatures can be hit if they are given the appropriate weapons.



A raggamoffyn using Control Host on your soldiers will give them Construct traits, and change their type to Construct, without making them lose their Con score.


Not a bad idea, it would also help stop starvation and drowning. But at the same time it would make them vulnerable to Slaying Arrows (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Slaying_Arrow) and Mace of Smiting (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mace_of_Smiting). I would think its far more difficult to access supernatural-spells than core listed magic gear.



This should adequately protect your army. Remember that your army shouldn't just be invincible on it's own, since it's just a load of freaky trolls. You should also, as a Cabal, have war leaders, and other units too, not just nigh-invincible armies.


The hope is that over time, the rampaging hordes will gain enough XP to pick up class levels.

mostlyharmful
2009-01-11, 09:34 AM
Isn't there a faerun weapon enhancement that lets you block one spell? +1 Spellgard I think? set that to disjunction or greater Dispel magic (or heck get two, you don't have to be wielding them and make them for free) and they're a lot closer to being undisarmable so long as they need magic gear.

Morandir Nailo
2009-01-11, 06:26 PM
Spellblade; it's in Magic of Faerun. However, IIRC it only negates targeted spells, not AoEs, so the AoE Dispel Magic would still work.

More on-topic, isn't there a rule somewhere that you can't have regeneration if you're immune to non-lethal damage? Or is that just for not having a Con score?

Mor

Flickerdart
2009-01-11, 06:39 PM
Spellblade; it's in Magic of Faerun. However, IIRC it only negates targeted spells, not AoEs, so the AoE Dispel Magic would still work.

More on-topic, isn't there a rule somewhere that you can't have regeneration if you're immune to non-lethal damage? Or is that just for not having a Con score?

Mor
Regeneration entry doesn't say anything about that. You just need a CON score.

Rei_Jin
2009-01-11, 07:25 PM
I like what you're trying to do, but due to the sheer wealth of material released by Wizards of the Coast there's no way to make a creature that can't be killed.

Even the combination of the Multi-headed Lernean Template onto a creature with the Fire Subtype and then adding a Clay Golem Graft can be killed now, thanks to the Searing Spell Metamagic feat from Sandstorm.

Previously, it could only be slowed down, or stopped, but not killed. You could do damage to it with spells that don't allow SR, but there was no way to deal fire or acid damage to the neck stumps. Thus, it would just get up and come at you again.

Stupid Searing Spell metamagic feat. :smallyuk:

Greg
2009-01-11, 07:43 PM
These creatures are only going to earn XP from creatures of CR 13 and up (ECL of 22 - not taking into account the +LA from half-golem, as I can't find one) - you'd be struggling to find enough to progress them in class levels. Unless you pit them against each other in order to advance them...

Flickerdart
2009-01-11, 07:43 PM
If it helps, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20160) is the Ikea Tarrasque 2.0. Still vulnerable to a few spells, but slapping it on a swarm of any kind alleviates all but Searing Spell AoE spells. That's what we've got to stop, people. These are only CR +7, and can be Voidminded (since Hiveminds have INT 6 or something like that).

Keld Denar
2009-01-11, 07:51 PM
Stupid Searing Spell metamagic feat. :smallyuk:

Actually, Searing Spell won't even work. Because he used Crystal Trolls, which are only dealt real damaged by Sonic, and Emerald Dragon, which makes the creature immune to Sonic damage. There is no Sonic equivalent to Searing, and if you Energy Sub or Mastery of Elements a Searing Spell to Sonic, Searing will no longer be a legal target and not apply to the final spell. Thus, hitting an Emerald Legionaire with a Searing Orb of Fire will do as little as hitting a normal troll with a Piercing Cold Orb of Cold...which is exactly nothing. It'll take the damage, which will be converted to non-lethal due to the fact that it doesn't overcome the regeneration, and that non-lethal damage will then be negated due to immunity to non-lethal damage.

Now, if they had a MM feat like Ultra High Frequency, which would apply to Sonic spells and allow them to affect things immune to Sonic damage, then you'd have a case, since you could just use a Tippyesque Cindy build to make tricked out Maximized Twinned Empowered Occular Repeating Quickened Ultra High Frequency Orbs of Fire subbed to Sonic with Archmage's Mastery of Elements.

Alas, no such feat exists...

Rei_Jin
2009-01-11, 08:02 PM
Whilst that is true, the problem still remains that you can't put a Half-Golem template onto a Dragon. Thus, it can't gain the magic immunity and properties of that template, leaving it highly susceptible to magics.

So the problem you end up with, is that this creature doesn't work. Up until that point, it works fine.

This was a problem I encountered when trying to build the original Ikea Tarrasque and Version 2.0 as well - Dragons have great difficulty being templated.

Keld Denar
2009-01-11, 08:09 PM
This was a problem I encountered when trying to build the original Ikea Tarrasque and Version 2.0 as well - Dragons have great difficulty being templated.

Did you read the OP? He got around it...

Rei_Jin
2009-01-11, 08:22 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure of the legitimacy of the breeding steps that he takes.

The only book that deals comprehensively with Template Stacking is Savage Species, and it specifies that a creature cannot drop to a lower Type than it is when a new template is applied, except in specific cases. To use this correctly, you need to be aware of the Type Pyramid, on page 142 of that book.

Thus, once something becomes a Dragon type, it cannot become any kind of humanoid, giant, fey, Animal, Vermin, or Magical Beast.

Not sure where the concept that it retains the mothers base species comes from either.




EDIT: If I understand D&D Genetics correctly (Never thought I'd say this) then you have two options on what happens when you try to mate Half Emerald Dragon Crystalline Trolls with Zombie Half Emerald Dragon Scrags.

1. They aren't able to produce offspring at all, they are incompatible to mate due to the difference in base creatures. Trolls and Scrags, whilst they are able to breed together normally, are unlikely to produce offspring when you've mixed in so many other types of genetics there.

2. There is a 50% chance that the child will either be a Half Emerald Dragon Crystalline Troll or a Half Emerald Dragon Scrag.


And the Half Troll/Half Dragon template brings up another issue - Would the offspring of the dragons and the trolls be half dragon trolls or half troll dragons? There's no rule for how that works, because both templates apply equally (Which is an exception to the normal rule).

Aether
2009-01-12, 01:19 AM
Hmmm.... I've managed to get a description of the voidmind template. According to Crystalkeep, it's a "Lvl +1" and "Cr +3."

It can breathe a 30-foot long cone of slime, 1/day, doing 1d6 acid damage per HD. Con-based save DC. If target is damaged--> save vs. stun effect...

And the +5 foot reach tentacle could be used for trip attacks... Um.... Would there be a tentacle for each head on the hydra-like troll? And do newly-made heads come with their own tentacle?
As for adding "Lernean" to the breeding process; the fluff says that it's essentially the result of mutation or a magical-biological experiment. So just have the breeders experiment with grafting extra heads onto trolls, which is... removing heads is not as ridiculous and fatal for trolls with their regeneration as it is for other species...

I have a question, though. Can the 3 Mindflayers ONLY use their psionic abilities when they.. possessify the minion? They can't cast spells or use other abilities? Can they utilize the feats of the minion they're controlling; combat reflexes, power attack, e.t.c.? What if the Mindflayer itself had something like Dodge--is that useable?

Can the Mindflayers "ride along" in the back of the minion's mind and use their mind powers WITHOUT having to take control of the troll? That is to say... the troll goes on its rampage, while a mindflayer is psionically blasting enemies left and right.

Is a Mindflayer immune to mind-affecting effects/spells when possessing it's minion?


Can more than one Mindflayer "inhabit" the Emerald Legionnaire's body at the same time?

Somehow I doubt that, but the thought of an unstopable melee-machine with three psionic casters...

JeminiZero
2009-01-12, 04:22 AM
Spellblade; it's in Magic of Faerun. However, IIRC it only negates targeted spells, not AoEs, so the AoE Dispel Magic would still work.


Interesting. I will include that, but it doesn't seem to protect against non-spell Dispelling (e.g. Voracious Dispelling/Devour Magic SLA of warlocks). It also doesn't protect against Supernatural Graymantle.



The only book that deals comprehensively with Template Stacking is Savage Species, and it specifies that a creature cannot drop to a lower Type than it is when a new template is applied, except in specific cases. To use this correctly, you need to be aware of the Type Pyramid, on page 142 of that book.

Thus, once something becomes a Dragon type, it cannot become any kind of humanoid, giant, fey, Animal, Vermin, or Magical Beast.


Well, fancy some obscure rule from a rarely used book coming back to bite me.

The process is still viable however if we switch to War Trolls which have regeneration that can only be overcome by acid, as voidmind provides acid immunity without half-dragon. The type remains as giant and you can then apply half-clay-golem without issues. To protect against Earthquakes and drowning, we apply winged template. It loses the Breath Weapon, gains Dazing Blow, and the CR is pushed up to 12 War Troll + 1 Winged + 0 Gheden + 1 Voidmind + 3 half-clay-golem = 17

And now the question is: are there any acid-immunity-piercing acid attacks out there.



Yeah, I'm not sure of the legitimacy of the breeding steps that he takes.


We are in a gray area, where the rules weren't designed to cover this kind of thing. Nothing in the rules (I think) say that this won't happen, so as long as the genetics sound reasonable, I'd say that it should work.



And the Half Troll/Half Dragon template brings up another issue - Would the offspring of the dragons and the trolls be half dragon trolls or half troll dragons? There's no rule for how that works, because both templates apply equally (Which is an exception to the normal rule).


I accept that genetics being the probabilistic thing that it is, will likely throw out some offspring who do not fit our criteria. But in the grand scheme of well-funded breeding programs, that hardly matters. If you want half dragon scrags/trolls, and your process generates them, than you have obtained your objective. If a few half-troll/scrag dragons pop up along the way, then the process is less than 100% efficient, but still gets you what you want (you can just dispose of the half-troll/scrag dragons in your pain extractor).



Hmmm.... I've managed to get a description of the voidmind template. According to Crystalkeep, it's a "Lvl +1" and "Cr +3."


Thats one of the few things Crytal Keep has listed wrongly. The actual text puts it at LA +3 and CR +1 (there are virtually no examples where CR exceeds LA if any).



As for adding "Lernean" to the breeding process; the fluff says that it's essentially the result of mutation or a magical-biological experiment. So just have the breeders experiment with grafting extra heads onto trolls, which is... removing heads is not as ridiculous and fatal for trolls with their regeneration as it is for other species...


This depends on whether you add Voidmind or Learnean template first. Logically, you should add Learnean first by breeding it into your farm stock, than add voidmind. If it were the other way around, the resulting gheden troll has regen + non-lethal immunity which would render him virtually impossible to decapitate without stopping regen (which indirectly entails killing it).

But if you add Learnean than Voidmind, the voidmind template does not specify how it handles multiheaded creatures. Do you replace the brains of all 3 head at once, or each one seperately? Does each head get a seperate tentacle attack? Or only one?

Regardless, Vorpal isn't going to do much with Clay golem slashing/piercing immunity. So Learnean isn't necessary to improve durability.



I have a question, though. Can the 3 Mindflayers ONLY use their psionic abilities when they.. possessify the minion? They can't cast spells or use other abilities? Can they utilize the feats of the minion they're controlling; combat reflexes, power attack, e.t.c.? What if the Mindflayer itself had something like Dodge--is that useable?




Can more than one Mindflayer "inhabit" the Emerald Legionnaire's body at the same time?


The original text:



Finally, any one of the three masters can take control of the voidmind creature, at will, as the dominate monster spell (no save). While controlling the voidmind in this fashion, a mind flayer can manifest its own innate psionic abilities through the voidmind creature, as though the creature were manifesting the ability itself.


So only one at a time, and only Psionic Powers.



Is a Mindflayer immune to mind-affecting effects/spells when possessing it's minion?


No (unless the Mindflayer has some other power to that effect). However, the Mindflayer is not possessing the minion. He is dominating it. So things that target the minion will have no effect on the master.

Altima
2009-01-12, 05:50 AM
It might not be the best of ideas to make your unstoppable legion invincible.

After all, I think we've all read enough fantasy to realize when oppressed slaves are suddenly freed then pointed in the direction of their former masters. Odds are, as an evil, world conquering overlord, you're bound to, eventually, irritate several epic-level creatures.

So, perhaps, it's a good idea that they have a few weakness you can exploit in the case that your minions turn on you. Or someone copies the process and turns a legion on you.

JeminiZero
2009-01-12, 08:59 PM
Going through the Templates list, I think I have figured out a way to grant the critter immunity to polymorph (but not petrification). Apply the Lycantrope template, probably for Dire Bat, gives it shapechanger subtype so it can revert if ever polymorphed. Were-Dire-Bat also lets it fly, so you can remove the Winged template. Were-Dire Bat is +3 CR, removing winged Template lowers it by -1 CR. Net CR increases by +2, so its now 19, pushing near Epic.

Thats probably not optimal. Anyone know of any medium sized flying or aquatic animal with just 2 HD (reduces CR increase to +2)?

If I can find someway to incorporate Woodling into the breeding procedure, it would grant immunity to petrification as well.



After all, I think we've all read enough fantasy to realize when oppressed slaves are suddenly freed then pointed in the direction of their former masters. Odds are, as an evil, world conquering overlord, you're bound to, eventually, irritate several epic-level creatures.


Maybe, but for the purposes of this thought experiment lets focus on trying to make them invincible first, and worry about losing control later.

Also, they are not necessarily oppressed slaves. Remember, the Illithids are ultimately still the ones that bring them up, feed them and cloth them. As long as their Illithid masters have treated them well (as any smart LE villain should treat its invincible super soldiers), they will still remain loyal to them.



Or someone copies the process and turns a legion on you.


If someone is smart enough to dissect/derive the process, chances are he will be smart enough to improve on it to overcome any intentional weakness. He will then send his flawless minions against your flawed army, which will likely result in your swift defeat.

Altima
2009-01-12, 09:31 PM
...lets focus on trying to make them invincible first, and worry about losing control later.


Famous last words...

As for someone else sending a 'perfect' legion towards you, your flawed units should have the numerical advantage. Defensively (unless the new legion can fling around supernatural death effects), they'll be equal, so you can tie up the new guys with your old guys then smack the youngsters with the rest of your forces.

Also, does the illithiid void mind control scheme work across planes?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-13, 04:37 AM
What defence do you have against a Pyroclastic Dragon's annihilation breath? Against a Solar's or Pit Fiend's infinite and probably supernatural (feats changed via Wish) Holy Words? Against a Beholder's supernatural disintegration ray? Against an Overseer's supernatural Temporal Stasis? Against any creature with extraordinary brain-eating attack? Against Corporeal Instability? Against a Marut's or Solar's Earthquake SLA?

Because a high-level caster can summon, call, dominate or shapechange into the above creaures and use those abilities, most of them at will.

Khatoblepas
2009-01-13, 04:51 AM
Idea for gaining Construct traits without losing anything:

Give the trolls the feats: Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Leadership.

Their cohort is a Warforged, with a single flaw.

F) Endurance
1) Troll Blooded

Give them each immunity to fire and acid, and 5 levels in that class which gives them immunity to nonlethal damage. Metamorphic Transfer. Skin of the Protean for Metamorphosis. Changed them into a Raggamoffyn.

Couple them on when you need to give them the right traits. Otherwise, leave them alone. They're never specifically targetable, so...

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-13, 06:41 AM
The easiest would be half-black dragon trolls with a Mantle of the Fiery Spirit and diehard feat.

Baron Corm
2009-01-13, 05:56 PM
This is extremely badass. The fact that they can be "released" with antimagic shackles is an interesting aspect that makes me believe that this legion could actually be used in a post-apocalyptic horror campaign where the world has already been taken over and you use shackles to use your trolls to fight trolls, or infiltrate the mindflayers' lair, kill the mindflayers, and release their control over the entire legion.

Trolls and mindflayers are two of my favorite monsters so this really is just amazing to me... I have two questions though.

1. What the hell is a tippy-esque create food trap?

2. What would these trolls do against foes who were immune to physical damage? Or if put in a cage which was immune to physical damage? It could even just be damage reduction of at least as much as they can put out. Seems to me like they need other forms of attack. If you make it just fire and physical or something... well, those are easily resistable too.

Sending voidminded creatures with them who had [hellfire] warlock levels (for nigh-unresistable attacks and shatter), or supernatural death effects, would be almost required to actually take over the world. And the latter would serve to keep renegade trolls in line, as well.

Greg
2009-01-13, 06:01 PM
1. What the hell is a tippy-esque create food trap?

2. What would these trolls do against foes who were immune to physical damage? Or if put in a cage which was immune to physical damage? It could even just be damage reduction of at least as much as they can put out. Seems to me like they need other forms of attack. If you make it just fire and physical or something... well, those are easily resistable too.

1) You know how you can make auto-resetting spellcasting traps? You do that with the spell "create food". It makes infinite amounts of (bland) food. Named after Tippy, who put them forward first (here at least).

2) Give them weapons? A psionic caster can manifest powers through them.

The big problem with class levels is where they get XP from - not many things present enough of a challenge.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-13, 06:27 PM
1) You know how you can make auto-resetting spellcasting traps? You do that with the spell "create food". It makes infinite amounts of (bland) food. Named after Tippy, who put them forward first (here at least).

To spice up the food, make a prestidigitation trap?

Baron Corm
2009-01-13, 06:56 PM
2) Give them weapons? A psionic caster can manifest powers through them.

There must be some sort of psionic golem which is immune to most psionics. The point being that while the Emerald Legion has all of these immunities in one place, if they're going to conquer the world, they're going to encounter all of these immunities separately. They must have some form of dealing with everything.

Greg
2009-01-13, 07:16 PM
To spice up the food, make a prestidigitation trap?
You could do that, but it provides no mechanical benefit - I assume that's all that matters to the ilithids.

JeminiZero
2009-01-14, 10:39 AM
Famous last words...


Well, they're not my last words, so I'm not too concerned. :smallbiggrin:



Also, does the illithiid void mind control scheme work across planes?


The original text doesn't actually say whether or not the link works across planes. But it does give an example of a mindflayer planeshifting his voidmind minion, so it would probably be a reasonable intepretation to say yes.



What defence do you have against a Pyroclastic Dragon's annihilation breath?


A really good Fort save? I'm open to suggestions, what can protect against annihilation breath?



Against a Solar's or Pit Fiend's infinite and probably supernatural (feats changed via Wish) Holy Words?


Checking the SRD entry, since when did Solar's have infinite holy words? Anyway, Holy Word is a sonic effect so I'm hoping the items of silence will hedge it out as follows:

Solar: Holy Word! Holy Word! Holy Word!
Troll 1: Eh, I think the Solar is shouting something.
Troll 2: What! Did you say something? I can't hear while this item of silence is on!

Beyond that, Were-Dire-Bat template advances their HD to 16 so the solars will need a caster level of 26 to kill them. I could apply a larger Were-animal which would boost their HD to something like 30 (and their SR to 40, see below), but that would quickly push their CR into epic territory.



Against a Beholder's supernatural disintegration ray?


It does HP damage doesn't it. As long as it doesn't specifically overcome their regen, they should be safe.



Against an Overseer's supernatural Temporal Stasis?


Hope for the Overseer Psion to bail them out. Failing which, AFAIK Trolls don't have any listed maximum age, and Gheden provides slowed aging.

I would note that most of the above *can* also be solved by Null-Psi-Field berserk. But the Solars can't be defeated in that contingency, since the trolls need their epic weapons.



Against any creature with extraordinary brain-eating attack?


This is where the rules start to get a bit iffy. Voidmind template replaces their brains with psionic slime. And I'm not talking about passive slime, this slime apprantly can discharge itself as a spray of acid, replenish itself after said discharge, and can form itself into tentacle with extended reach, improved grab and constrict.

What happens when you try and extract something like that? Your guess is as good as mine. :smallbiggrin:



Against Corporeal Instability?


Again the rules don't cover this. Gheden dead nerves would arguably stop the effect of searing pain, so they won't attack blindly. But they still take massive attack penalties, so the fight may drag on fir a bit. It will be a pain, but it won't kill them.



Against a Marut's or Solar's Earthquake SLA?


It still has SR 26 (SR 40 with template stacking to epic territory). It won't stop all the Earthquakes, and many of them will spend a significant amount of time being unable to move. But the damage doesn't overcome their regen, and as long as they don't die, they can try and win by attrition. Remember, while the Solar is throwing out an Earthquake, he's not doing anything else. So in a 1 on 1 cage fight, a earthquake spamming solar will fail SR once in a while, get smacked by troll, and eventually lose.

Apologies, but I'll look at the rest of the comments tommorrow, I need to sleep now.

JeminiZero
2009-01-15, 09:16 AM
Idea for gaining Construct traits without losing anything:

Their cohort is a Warforged, with a single flaw.

F) Endurance
1) Troll Blooded

Give them each immunity to fire and acid, and 5 levels in that class which gives them immunity to nonlethal damage.


It may not surprise you to learn that, I had a gestalt submission (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5603719&postcount=12) like that. :smallsmile:

Problem is that the entire setup relies on Skin of Protean which becomes vulnerable to Dispel/Disjunction, not to mention vulnerability to hotter-than-normal-fire attacks. In which case, you might as well stick with the enchanted gear that gives you the immunities you lack (mainly Death effects). Captured One construct traits surprisingly do not include the ability to go without food or air. Also:



Metamorphic Transfer. Skin of the Protean for Metamorphosis. Changed them into a Raggamoffyn.


Reading the Raggamoffyn entry again, I realize that the Captured One template requires the Raggomoffyn to control the host via Dominate. I'm not sure if the Voidmind can deliberately lower their immunity to mind-affecting to allow Raggamoffyn control (they are immune mainly because thay have no brain, so I don't see tem spontaneously regrowing a brain to become controllable.). :smalltongue:



There must be some sort of psionic golem which is immune to most psionics. The point being that while the Emerald Legion has all of these immunities in one place, if they're going to conquer the world, they're going to encounter all of these immunities separately. They must have some form of dealing with everything.


Very few foes are immune to all forms of physical damage. Most can be hit by the appropriate kind of weapon. As Giants, Trolls have martial weapon proficiency, so its simply a matter of giving them the right weapon with the right enchantments.



To spice up the food, make a prestidigitation trap?


Good point, I will include that in the Mind Flayer Cabal's instruction manual for World domination. :smallbiggrin:

Khatoblepas
2009-01-15, 07:51 PM
Okay, to stop items from being Disjoined:

Cohort yourself a Fiend of Possession. Very versatile, can be put in nonmagical weapons, though +1 swords are immune to Shatter. Just carry a lot of them on you.

Permanent Silence Item + Item Familiar (UA) + 7 HD = Magical item that's immune to Disjunction (Disjunction doesn't disjoin creatures, and intelligent items are Constructs). Make it a slotless item, and embed it deep inside the giant's skull.

Add on some more stuff to it with your dark craft and MIC's rules for adding stuff to items (for "free", of course) and you have a truly scary monster.

Painfully mute, though.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-15, 08:21 PM
Very few foes are immune to all forms of physical damage.
You mean, apart from swarms, right? Besides, one doesn't need to be immune to physical damage. An elder air elemental with thick-skinned feat 5 times has DR 20/- and immunity to criticals. Add to it a starmantle cloak and it effectively has DR 40/- because damage gets halved. Add to it Blade of Ragnarok feats (hey, it has more than 20 HD) and not only it now has base DR 30/- (effectively 60/- ) but it also won't die until you deal to it twice its normal HP in damage. In addition to that, it flies with great speed, has a good grapple check and very good AC. To make things more interesting we also add spellwarped template.

So here's the scenario: 1 spellwarped elder air elemental with a starmantle cloak (CR 13) vs 100 or so of the emerald trolls. Elemental swoops down and grapples a troll. Carries it away (light load) and ignores any psionics cast through the voidmind of CL 13 due to SR 35. It goes to a lake and drowns the troll. Go back and repeat.
What can the trolls do?
1) The elemental has humongous damage reduction (TM). It practically ignores physical damage of less than ubercharger level.
2) The elemental flies and has more reach than the trolls. So the trolls can never attack it except through extra reach weapons.
3) The elemental has an AC of 30+ without any items. The trolls probably only hit on a 20
4) The elemental will only die at -252 HP, meaning the trolls have to get at least 504 points of damage past the DR.
5) The elemental has a grapple check 18 points higher than a half-dragon troll. It must roll a 1 and the troll a 20 to lose a grapple check (1/400 chance). So against 100 trolls, it effectively auto-grapples.

Oslecamo
2009-01-15, 08:41 PM
The voidmind burns some feats into extra power resistance penetration, mindrape the air elemental and now are even stronger.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-15, 09:38 PM
IMHO you missed the point. If a CR 13 creature with a single magical item has a good chance of killing an army that costs about 100 times as much to create and arm (from the items I'm seeing used anyway) so that the army's masters have to personally intervene to even have a chance at overcoming it, what would a more powerful enemy do?

And there are a lot more creatures of high enough CR to simply snatch the trolls and drown them one by one. Any dragon could probably do it. Most high-CR outsiders too. And just about anyone with Shapechange.

The problem with making the Emerald Army is manyfold:

1) You can't make them truly unkillable, not without infinite loops. There always is at least one chink to their unkillability armor. And a wizard can probably find it-it usually involves shapechange and pyroclastic dragons. You have to settle with making them as resilient as possible.
2) Cost is a problem. As is, without including any items, the process costs about 40.000 gp per troll. A Gated 20+ CR monster costs 10.000 gp for a brief task and about 20.000 gp for a long task. Which is the most cost-effective?
3) Time is a problem. Breeding a new creature then having it grow to adulthood takes years. Again, not cost-effective in the end.

Khatoblepas
2009-01-16, 05:14 AM
So here's the scenario: 1 spellwarped elder air elemental with a starmantle cloak (CR 13) vs 100 or so of the emerald trolls. Elemental swoops down and grapples a troll. Carries it away (light load) and ignores any psionics cast through the voidmind of CL 13 due to SR 35. It goes to a lake and drowns the troll. Go back and repeat.
What can the trolls do?


Get a 1/day item of shatter (built into the intelligent Item Familiar)

Mind Flayer uses Dominate on a troll.
- Psionic Freedom of Movement.
- Dispel Psionics on the Cloak
- Shatter the now-nonmagical cloak.
- Spam a suitable SR: No spell until it dies. (I wonder if Elder Brains can be one of the three mind flayers to control a Voidmind?)

Who cares if you lose one or two trolls? They'll just swim back to shore anyway.

Also, isn't Blade of Ragnarok 4th Edition stuff? I don't think we should be mixing stuff from 4th edition or conversions. The mechanics don't mix that well.


2) Cost is a problem. As is, without including any items, the process costs about 40.000 gp per troll. A Gated 20+ CR monster costs 10.000 gp for a brief task and about 20.000 gp for a long task. Which is the most cost-effective?

A troll is for life, not just for Christmas. Oh, and as for time? We can just Spell up a demiplane to work on, have it run with fast time traits, throwing the finished trolls on a Plane Shift trap when they're made. We run it with the resulting Constructs (1 in 20, maximum) and lock it up somewhere safe. We then have an NI amount of trolls.

Of course, I agree with you that creating an invincible army is silly, but hey, they're relatively cheap (and free, due to the sheer amount of "people" we're sacrificing for crafting gold and XP) and the people running it are Mind Flayers. They're supposed to win and create an empire... before getting destroyed and needing to go back in time again.

Oslecamo
2009-01-16, 06:51 AM
IMHO you missed the point. If a CR 13 creature with a single magical item has a good chance of killing an army that costs about 100 times as much to create and arm (from the items I'm seeing used anyway) so that the army's masters have to personally intervene to even have a chance at overcoming it, what would a more powerful enemy do?


First, I would like to point out claiming that a monster with epic feats to be nonepic is pretty questionable on itself. The air elemental is at least CR 21 as soon as you start slapping epic feats on it.

And this assuming of course the air elemental is some tactical genious wich knows the troll's only weakness.

Also, the air elemental is still that much easier to defeat than the trolls from a third parties point of view. There's a lot of things out there who can easily defeat said air elemental, but there are few who can actually hurt the emerald trolls, since anything whitout 9th level spells will be very hard pressed to defeat it.

JeminiZero
2009-01-16, 07:39 AM
Okay, to stop items from being Disjoined:

Cohort yourself a Fiend of Possession. Very versatile, can be put in nonmagical weapons, though +1 swords are immune to Shatter. Just carry a lot of them on you.


Where can Fiend of Possession be found?



Permanent Silence Item + Item Familiar (UA) + 7 HD = Magical item that's immune to Disjunction (Disjunction doesn't disjoin creatures, and intelligent items are Constructs). Make it a slotless item, and embed it deep inside the giant's skull.


During my research, it seems that, Intelligent Magic Items still count as magic items and can be disjoined (http://files.meetup.com/218604/Main35FAQv09202006.pdf) (go to page 57).



We can just Spell up a demiplane to work on, have it run with fast time traits

Thats actualy a rather good suggestion. I will add it to the next revision.



You mean, apart from swarms, right?


I did say very few. Not none. :smallsmile:



So here's the scenario: 1 spellwarped elder air elemental with a starmantle cloak (CR 13) vs 100 or so of the emerald trolls. Elemental swoops down and grapples a troll.


I'd like to see the numbers on this. The present version of the legion has a Str score that compares favorably with a Tarrasque. 31 base War Troll Str + 4 Gheden + 4 Voidmind + 8 Half-Clay-Golem = 47. And thats not including the +7 from shifting to Dire-Were-Bat hybrid form, and the +4 from Half-Clay-Golem rage. All in all, without outside help, it can achieve a Str of 58, add on 15 BAB and +4 for large size and it has a grapple score of ~43.

Now with outside help, the Psion overseer could manifest augmented/extended Expansion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Expansion) on the troll pushing it 2 size categories up to Gargantuan, and adding +4 to Str and further buff Str +4 with animal affinity (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Animal_Affinity_%28Power%29). This would push Grapple to ~55. At this point, the Gargantuan Emerald Legionnaire Troll-zilla can go toe to toe with a Tarrasque (his Mindflayer Psion can finish the tarrasque off with Psionic Wish (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Reality_Revision)).



Carries it away (light load) and ignores any psionics cast through the voidmind of CL 13 due to SR 35.


Come on now. You're obviously not seriously considering all the options at the trolls/mind flayer's disposal. Psionics does have powers that ignore SR like crystal shard (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Crystal_Shard).



It goes to a lake and drowns the troll. Go back and repeat.


Or, you know, the Psion Master could manifest any of the powers that negate the need for air on the Troll itself, such as the long lasting adapt body (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Adapt_Body), so that it can fight the elemental underwater (or underlava, or in deep space for that matter).



1) The elemental has humongous damage reduction (TM). It practically ignores physical damage of less than ubercharger level.


Can a formless Air elemental wear a cloak at all? (this is an actual question, I haven't seen anything that would deny it, but it does seem rather iffy)

Actually enemies using any of the Mountain Hammers can ignore all DR/hardness. Also if the enemy is as strong enough, he could punch through all that DR.

Without outside help, Emerald Legionnaires have a base Str of 58, which equates to a Str bonus of 24. If they use an 2-hander +1 and maximum power attack (from BAB of 15), they deal bonus 24x1.5 + 30 PA = 66 bonus damage. There is base weapon damage/enchantment on top of that, so they CAN hammer through all that ludicrous DR, albeit not by much. Still, it is sufficient for them to win by attrition.



2) The elemental flies and has more reach than the trolls. So the trolls can never attack it except through extra reach weapons.


The trolls have always been able to fly, although not as fast as the elemental. Reach doesn't matter when the trolls are executing a flying charge.



3) The elemental has an AC of 30+ without any items. The trolls probably only hit on a 20


The trolls have a Str bonus to hit of 24, not including weapon enhancement and BAB (which was all used in power attack). If AC is only 30+, they certainly won't need a 20 to hit.



4) The elemental will only die at -252 HP, meaning the trolls have to get at least 504 points of damage past the DR

5) The elemental has a grapple check 18 points higher than a half-dragon troll. It must roll a 1 and the troll a 20 to lose a grapple check (1/400 chance). So against 100 trolls, it effectively auto-grapples.


Yes, but its NOT a half-dragon troll. I think I should have demonstrated conclusively by now that the trolls won't be consistently grappled by the Air-elemental. And all it takes is ONE troll that charges every round with max power attack to bring the elemental down.



IMHO you missed the point. If a CR 13 creature with a single magical item has a good chance of killing an army that costs about 100 times


Any creature designed to exploit the particular weakness of another creature can prove extremely effective. By that same token, a single CR 19 Emerald Legionnaire can defeat a CR 50 Devastation Beetle (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Devastation_Beetle) by attrition. In fact ONE troll can wipe out a Devestation Beetle swarm (swarm being their numbers, not their creature type).



And there are a lot more creatures of high enough CR to simply snatch the trolls and drown them one by one. Any dragon could probably do it. Most high-CR outsiders too. And just about anyone with Shapechange.


With Shape Changes 25 HD limit, most (non-templated) creatures that are powerful enough to contend with the Legions high strength are inaccessible.

If Drowning is really a serious issue, I could switch to the Were-Dire-Shark template so they can breath water, but as mentioned before, that would put their CR in epic levels, and I don't want to go there just yet.



1) You can't make them truly unkillable, not without infinite loops. There always is at least one chink to their unkillability armor.


Perhaps it is, perhas its not. But only those who dare to dream the ridiculous can achieve the impossible. Or something like that. :smallbiggrin:



And a wizard can probably find it-it usually involves shapechange and pyroclastic dragons. You have to settle with making them as resilient as possible.


The 25 HD limit of Shapechange means that, at best, it can be used to assume an mature adult Pyroclastic Dragon. The save DC for their breath is 28.

Without outside help, an Emerald Legionaire in hybrid form with rage active has a Fort save in the vicinity of 13 War Troll + 7 Dire Bat + 2 Voidmind Con bonus + 2 Half-Clay-Golem Con bonus + 2 Rage Con bonus = 26. It will make its save on a 2 and fail on a 1. With a few choice pieces of gear and Steadfast Determination, it won't fail at all.

Or it could expand, grapple the Dragon (it does have improved grab), activate Null-Psi-Field, strip off shapechange, and crush the de-magicked wizard/druid/outsider to dust, so long as the other guy doesn't have Regen/DR the Legionnaire can't overcome.



2) Cost is a problem. As is, without including any items, the process costs about 40.000 gp per troll. A Gated 20+ CR monster costs 10.000 gp for a brief task and about 20.000 gp for a long task. Which is the most cost-effective?


Where did you get 40k per troll? Outside of advanced equipment and setup costs, the cost per troll is ~12k+ with pain extractor and ~24k without, and most of that goes into the half-clay-golem graft.

24k+ for something that can halt a swarm of devestation beetles is rather cost effective IMHO.

Collin152
2009-01-16, 07:29 PM
Having just watched Wizard of Oz, I can't picture this legion as anything but monstrous Flying Monkeys... Which, I just realized, are just Monkeys with the Winged template...

That makes three desires of mine, now: Oz campaign, High-Power campaign with this cabal of Mind Flayers and their Troll slaves as the principle antagonist, and draw these funny flying-monkey-troll crimes against nature.

Aether
2009-01-17, 04:32 AM
For feats for the Emerald Legionnaires...

Combat Reflexes? The base War Trolls have a Dex of like 16. It might be even better with the templates piled on top of it. Take advantage of their Large size, and 15-foot reach head-tentacle, to make attacks of opportunity.

Regarding Attacks of Op: Pg 138 of the PHB says "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." But somebody moving and then casting a spell, or making a ranged attack, would provoke more AoOs, heh heh he.
But Robilar's Gambit says they provoke AoOs each time they swing!
Robilar's Gambit, Player's Handbook 2 page 82. BAB +12, Combat Reflexes; can be Fighter Bonus Feat.
"At the start of your action, you can adopt a fighting stance that exposes you to harm but allows you to take advantage of your opponents' exposed defenses as they reach in to attack you. Anyone who strikes at you gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against you. In return, they provoke attacks of opportunity from you each time they swing. Resolve your attack of opportunity afer your foe's attack."
Not quite serious about this, but: does this mean you can retaliate against archers if you have ranged weaponry? It says "anyone who strikes you." Though it does say "provoke AoP each time they swing" which implies melee. Hmmm... On the other hand, this might mean that any ranged attackers or spells requiring to-hit rolls gain +4 to hit and damage against you, as well as your melee opponents.

With Emerald Legionnaires guided by Mind Flayers, you'll be using squad or army tactics. And you'll probably want some of your War Trolls with reach weapons shish-kebabing the guys in front. So you may want to consider giving each of your guys a couple secondary weapons. Like a spear or lane, and a ranged weapon of some sort.

PHB 2 also has "Mad Foam Rager." This feat lets you delay the effects of a "attack, spell or ability until the end of your next turn." Once per each rage attempt. Dunno if Clay Golem's go berserk and if they do if they qualify but... I was more thinking about the look on a player's or spellcaster's faces as they realize that whatever desperation-move they just pulled out of their butts--which they spent SO much time ensuring it would go through all your defenses!!--didn't work. Highly situational; mainly mentioned "for the lulz."

Monkey Grip... Oh god, monkey grip... Wield Huge weapons instead of Large ones. For a measly -2 to hit.


Maybe Flyby Attack. Look into Tactical Feats and the Tome of Battle stuff too...

Can the head-tentacle make an attack and then retract? If so, it could make trip attempts for it's attacks...
...
Does the head-tentacle get its own AoOs? Or is it just another possible way of attacking in a AoO for the Troll?

JeminiZero
2009-01-17, 08:29 PM
ARGH! It seems that I made a mistake, War Trolls are considered Monstrous Humanoids, not giants. Which normally wouldn't be a problem since most things that Giants qualify for, Monstrous Humanoids do as well. Most things of course except for Lycanthropy.

Back to the drawing board. I suppose I should just give up on trying to keep their CR below 20 and throw on Winged Half-Troll and Were-Dire-Shark.

In the meanwhile, anyone know any medium sized or larger, Flying or Aquatic animals, with 2 HD or less?



That makes three desires of mine, now: Oz campaign, High-Power campaign with this cabal of Mind Flayers and their Troll slaves as the principle antagonist, and draw these funny flying-monkey-troll crimes against nature.


It doesn't have to be a high power campaign. You could have a campaign where the mind-flayers are still experimenting with the production procedure, so the PCs fight through a series of increasingly powerful trolls. They must stop the mind flayers before they perfect their legion.



Combat Reflexes
Robilar's Gambit


That might be useful.



PHB 2 also has "Mad Foam Rager."


As you say, Half-Clay-Golem berserk is not Rage or Frenzy, and hence does not qualify for this.



Monkey Grip... Oh god, monkey grip... Wield Huge weapons instead of Large ones. For a measly -2 to hit.


Monkey Grip is not nearly as good as it seems, as being able to wield Huge weapons does not grant extra reach.



Maybe Flyby Attack. Look into Tactical Feats and the Tome of Battle stuff too...


I should re-include Flyby attack.



Can the head-tentacle make an attack and then retract? If so, it could make trip attempts for it's attacks...


Being able to retract does not grant trip by RAW. If you want to make trip attempts with your attacks, the standard method is knockdown (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Knock-Down).



Does the head-tentacle get its own AoOs? Or is it just another possible way of attacking in a AoO for the Troll?


I don't think the head tentacle gets its own AoOs.

zakk2to2
2009-01-17, 09:27 PM
have you considered making psionic versions of the magic items? this would stop dysjunction I think though how psionics and magic interact im not really sure on this point.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-17, 10:06 PM
By default RAW, there's the little rule called Psionics-Magic Transparency, which means psionics and magic are identical for any effect that would be dependent on them being one or the other (Spell Resistance, Dispel/Disjunction, etc.).

The 'Psionics Are Different' is a variant, and one I've never actually seen in play.

Aether
2009-01-17, 10:42 PM
What I meant was...


The Tentacle was chosen as the Graft because it can retract into the head, which protects it from sundering. But if the tentacle is out and about and attacking and stuff, then it can be targeted for sunders. (If it is indeed a eligible target for sundering.)

So, I asked if the Tentacle can make an attack, and then retract back... so it can't be hit by a sunder attempt.


Also, I went back to take a look at Voidmind template. It turns out it gives Combat Reflexes, Alertness, and Great Fortitude as bonus feats.

It also has Improved Grab and a +4 Racial Bonus on Grapple checks. It can act independtly "so the Voidmind may make its other attacks normally while it Constricts." Crazy.

I figured that the tentacle can make trip attempts, or disarm attempts, because losing 1d6 damage is better than making a trip/grapple/disarm attempt with a weapon that could deal 2d8+lotsastrength damage.

Hmmm.. I wonder... Moving out of the square 15-feet away provokes an Attack of Oportunity from the tentacle because of its extra reach. But when the poor sap has to move again, it moves out of the square 10 feet away from the Troll itself... that could provoke an Attack of Opportunity from the Troll, since he's now within the reach of his weapon.



Anyway. I mentioned Monkey Grip not because of Huge Reach Weapons, but of Huge Weapons doing more damage. And you only take -2 to hit, which with the massive strength is piddly. The thread Abusing the Greatcleaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101513) also mentioned Strongarm bracelets; objects that let you use bigger-sized weapons... They cost 6000 gold. Has some interesting discussion there.

Winged Template is a good way to get Perfect Fly maneuverability for +1 CR. +4dex, +2wisdom... Voidmind gives +2 Dex as well. That pushes a War Trolls dex to, what, 22? Voila, you pass the Perfect maneuverability requirement of 19!


According to Savage Species' description of the Lycanthrope... A monstroud humanoid, half-dragon, or whatever would have to be a natural lycanthrope, rather than an infected one. So if you had a human who has half-dragon, if he got bit by a werewolf he wouldn't become one. But if his human parent was a werewolf, than he would be a werewolf. Who is also Half-Dragon.

But whenever he shifted into the were-form, he would just be a werewolf. No half-dragon, ooze, whatever stuff. Like Polymorph self, according to the book.


Basically, unless your guys are going to have some Humanoid-type ancestroy, they won't be able to be Lycanthropes. Look for another way to defend against polymorph...

And what happened to Multi-Headed and Lernean?

JeminiZero
2009-01-18, 09:25 PM
Also, I went back to take a look at Voidmind template. It turns out it gives Combat Reflexes, Alertness, and Great Fortitude as bonus feats.


Yeah... someday, after tweaking all the constituent templates and breeding processes, I should sit down and write out the stat block for a legionnaire and see how many free feats it has.



I figured that the tentacle can make trip attempts, or disarm attempts, because losing 1d6 damage is better than making a trip/grapple/disarm attempt with a weapon that could deal 2d8+lotsastrength damage.


In this case, the rules provide a specific instruction of what it can do. It does not say that it can do stuff other than what is stated (unlike say Geomancer Spell Versatility where it says it can do such and such as a merely a few examples of what spell versatility can accomplish). So by strict RAW, you can't trip/disarm etc with the tentacle, or at least not seperately from the main weapon.



Winged Template is a good way to get Perfect Fly maneuverability for +1 CR. +4dex, +2wisdom... Voidmind gives +2 Dex as well. That pushes a War Trolls dex to, what, 22? Voila, you pass the Perfect maneuverability requirement of 19!


That would depend on which stage you put the winged template in. Since it can only be inherited, it must be included at the very earliest moments of the breeding process, before Voidmind ritual, after which additional gains in Dex do not improve maneuverability.



But whenever he shifted into the were-form, he would just be a werewolf. No half-dragon, ooze, whatever stuff. Like Polymorph self, according to the book.


Actually, Savage Species is 3.0 material. Polymorph has since been updated and superseded in 3.5.



And what happened to Multi-Headed and Lernean?


It was abandoned since it did not provide any additional protection the legion didn't already have.

JeminiZero
2009-01-24, 08:22 AM
Emerald Legionnaire (Air Racial Variant)
Half-Clay-Golem Were-Dire-Bat Gheden Air Racial Variant Half-Troll War Trolls

Giant Form
Size/Type: Large Giant (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 12d8+120 plus 4d8+12 plus 64 (16 HD, average 268 HP)
Initiative: +3
Speed: base speed 40 ft. (May decrease if wearing Medium or Heavy Armor)
Armor Class: 19 (-1 size, +7 natural armor, +3 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+40 (+44 with Tentacle)
Attack: claw +39 melee (1d8+21)
Full Attack: 2 claws +39 melee (1d8+21) and Tentacle +39 melee (1d8+31) and bite +34 melee (1d6+10); Can wield Martial Weapons if needed
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (tentacle up to 15 ft.)
Special Attacks: Dazing blow, Rend 2d8+31 (Claws), Cone of Slime, Constrict 1d8+31 (Tentacle), Improved Grab (Tentacle), Sentient Tentacle, Berserk, Cursed Wound
Special Qualities: Alternate form, Haste, DR 10/adamantine & bludgeoning, DR 5/magic, Darkvision 90 ft, Low-light Vision, Blind Sense, Scent, Keen Scent, Regeneration 9, Fast Healing 5, Dead Nerves, Immunities, Magic Immunity, Spell Resistance 26, Immune to Piercing and Slashing Weapons, Mind Flayer Host, Bat Empathy
Saves: Fort +28, Ref +15, Will +30 (With Steadfast Determination)
Abilities: Str 52, Dex 16, Con 42, Int 1, Wis 16, Cha 1
Skills: (19 skill points unassigned)
Feats: 5 feats of choice from 12 Giant HD, which should include Steadfast Determination, Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. Plus the following bonus feats from templates: Iron Will, Alertness, Stealthy, Endurance, Diehard, and Toughness, Combat Reflexes, and Great Fortitude
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (3-9)
Challenge Rating: 21
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: -


Combat
Emerald Legionnaires typically use their Improved Bind vestige feat to bind Haagenti, to grant them immunity to form changing attacks. When fighting, they normally Shift to Were-Dire-Bat Hybrid Form. This gives them an additional +6 Str, +12 Dex and +6 Con. Furthermore, they Rage to gain another +4 Str and +4 Con. The stat changes boosts their Saves, and their attack and damage, and are not reflected above. Legionnaires prefer to fight on the ground in hybrid form, but if facing flying opponents, they can shift to Dire-Bat form.


Immunities
Regeneration (Ex): Unlike with their lesser cousins, acid (not fire) deals normal damage to a war troll. If a war troll loses a limb or a body part, the lost portion regrows in 2d4 minutes. The creatures can reattach the secered member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Breathless (Ex): Members of air races do not breathe, so they have immunity to drowning, suffocation, and attacks that require inhalation (such as some types of poison).

Dead Nerves (Ex): A gheden has a weak sense of touch and is incapable of feeling pain. It is unaffected by nonlethal damage, stunning and death from massive damage. This lack of sensation also imposes a -8 penalty on any skill check that involves fine motor control or a sense of touch, such as Open Lock or Sleight of Hand checks, but grants a +4 bonus on Concentration checks provoked by damage.

Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the Gheden, there is a 50% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated, and damage is instead rolled normally. If a Gheden wears magic armor with any form of the fortification quality, use the better percentage value.

Immunities (Ex): A gheden is immune to fear and confusion effects and energy drain attacks. A voidmind creature has immunity to acid and mind-affecting spells and abilities (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). It is also immune to ability damage, ability drain and energy drain.

Spell Resistance (Ex): Voidmind creatures gain spell reistance equal to 10 + Hit Dice (26 for an Emerald Legionnaire without advancement).

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A move earth spell drives the golem back 120 feet and deals 3d12 points of damage to it.

A disintegrate spell slows the golem (as the slow spell) for 1d6 rounds and deals 1d12 points of damage.

An earthquake spell cast directly at a clay golem stops it from moving on its next turn and deals 5d10 points of damage. The golem gets no saving throw against any of these effects.

Any magical attack against a clay golem that deals acid damage heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a clay golem hit by the breath weapon of a black dragon heals 7 points of damage if the attack would have dealt 22 points of damage. A clay golem gets no saving throw against magical attacks that deal acid damage.

Immunity to Slashing and Piercing (Ex): Slashing and piercing weapons, whether normal or magical, deal no damage to a half-clay-golem.


Attacks
Dazing Blow (Ex): The force of a war troll's blow can be overwhelming. If a war troll hits with a weapon or claw attack, the opponent must make a Fortitude save vs DC 16 + Con Modifier (32 without shifting or rage) or be dazed for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Air Racial Variant (Ex): +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against creatures of the earth subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Rend (Ex): If a half-troll hits with both claw attacks, it latches onto the opponent's body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals 2x the damage dice of a Claw attack + 1-1/2 Strength modifier (2d8+31 without shifting or rage).

Cone of Slime (Su): Once per day as a standard action, a voidmind creature can expel the psionically charged slime in its head in a 30 ft cone. the attack deals 1d6 points of acid damage per Hit Die of the voidmind creature (maximum 20d6). A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 voidmind creature's racial Hit Dice + voidmind creature's Con modifier) halves the damage (DC 43 without shifting or rage). In addition, any creature that takes damage from the spray takes a -2 penalty on its Will saves and is stunned for 1d4+1 rounds (Fortitude save negates the stun, save DC same as above). The psionic slime replenishes itself automatically in 24 hours. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Constrict (Ex): A voidmind creature gains the ability to constrict its victim with a successful grapple check. When it constricts, one of its tentacles deals damage based on the creature's size (see the table below), plus its strength bonus x1-1/2.

{table]Size| Constrict Damage
Tiny| 1d3
Small| 1d4
Medium| 1d6
Large| 1d8
Huge| 2d6[/table]

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a voidmind creature must hit a creature of its size category or smaller with its tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. A voidmind creature has a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks made with its tentacle. If the creature wins the graaple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Sentient Tentacle (Ex): A voidmind creature's tentacle attacks of its own accord. The creature can direct it to attack certain targets, but the psionic nature of the tentacle enables it to flex and move in combat without hindering the creature's other combat abilities. A voidmind grimlock that has successfully grappled a creature with its tentacle can attack another creature at no penalty, as long as that creature is within a distance equal to the tentacle's reach.

Berserk (Ex): A clay halfgolem that takes damage in combat flies into a berserk rage the following round, attacking wildly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, and -2 AC. A clay half-golem cannot end its berserk state voluntarily. If the clay half-golem is a barbarian, the bonuses and the penalty are cumulative with the barbarian rage class feature. (Not included in the stat block above)

Cursed Wound (Ex): The damage a clay golem deals doesn't heal naturally and resists healing spells. A character attempting to cast a conjuration (healing) spell on a creature damaged by a clay golem must succeed on a DC 26 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the injured character.

Haste (Su): After it has engaged in at least 1 round of combat on a given day, a clay half-golem can use haste upon itself once during that day as a free action. The effect lasts 3 rounds and is otherwise the same as the spell.


Racial Skills and Saves
Saves: A Gheden creature gains a +2 racial bonus on saves against fear, poison, disease, paralysis and spells from the necromancy school. Half Clay Golems gain +2 Racial bonus to Fortitude saves (included in the Stat Block above).

Air Racial Variant creatures suffer a −2 penalty on all saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities with the earth subtype or used by creatures of the earth subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Skills: Ghedens have a +4 racial bonus on Intimidate checks. Voidmind creatures have a +4 racial bons on Bluff, Escape Artist, and Intimidate checks. Otherwise same as base creature.

Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or dire animals of their animal form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal's attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."


Senses
Detect Mindless Undead (Sp): At will, a gheden can detect any form of mindless undead. This ability works like the detect undead spell (caster level equals gheden's total HD), but it only detects mindless undead.

Scent (Ex): A lycanthrope has the scent ability in any form.

Blindsense (Ex): A dire bat uses echolocation to pinpoint creatures within 40 feet. Opponents still have total concealment against the bat unless it can actually see them.


Miscellaneous
Alternate Form (Su): An Emerald Legionnaire can assume a bipedal dire bat hybrid form, or the form of a dire bat.

Call of Undeath (Ex): There is a 3% chance per Hit Die that upon a Gheden's death, it will rise as a Zombie.

Detection (Ex): Gheden registers as undead creatures for the purposes of spells and effects that detect undead (such as detect undead). A Gheden counts as half its HD for the purposes of aura strength.

Necrotic Life (Ex): Even on a failed save, a Gheden suffers only half damage from spells and effects that deal hit point damage due to negative energy, such as inflict spells, and with a successful save, a Gheden suffers no damage.

Slow Aging (Ex): Upon reaching maturity, a Gheden ages at one-forth of the base creature's normal rate.

Turn Kind (Ex): A Gheden cleric gains a +2 bonus on checks made to turn, rebuke, command or bolster zombies.

Vulnerability to Holy Water (Ex): Holy water scalds the flesh of a Gheden, dealing 1d4 points of damage per direct hit with a flask.

Vulnerability to Turning (Ex): Any turning attempt targeting the Gheden that would turn or rebuke an undead of the Gheden's HD imposes a -4 penalty on the half-undead's attacks, saves, skill checks, and ability checks. This effect lasts for 10 rounds or until the creature that turned or rebuked the Gheden attacks the Gheden. A turn attempt that would destroy or command an undead of equivalent Hit Dice instead stuns a Gheden for 2d4 rounds.

Mind Flayer Host (Su): Three mind flayer's form a bond with any voidmind creature they create. A different mind flayer cannot bond itself to a voidmind creature after creation. The creature's masters are instantly aware if the creature takes any damage, wanders out of range of their control, or is the target of any magic.

Also as a result of this bond, the masters can, as a standard action, see and hear through the eyes and ears of their bonded voidmind creature to a range of 5 miles. Maintaining this link requires a mindflayer to concentrate, but the mind flayer remains aware of its surroundings and can move normally.

Finally, any one of the three masters can take control of the voidmind creature, at will, as the dominate monster spell (no save). While controlling the voidmind in this fashion, a mind flayer can manifest its own innate psionic abilities through the voidmind creature, as though the creature were manifesting the ability itself. Any of the mind flayer's psionic powers used in this fashion can target or affect creatures within range, line of sight, and line of effect of the voidmind creature. So for example, a mind flayer can use plane shift to send the voidmind to another plane, or it could send itself to another plane. Like-wise, the mind flayer could use suggestion on a target it sees through the voidmind creature's eyes.


Animal/Hybrid Form Only
Damage Reduction (Ex): A natural lycanthrope in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver.

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su): Any humanoid or giant hit by a natural lycanthropefs bite attack in animal or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortutude save or contract lycanthropy. If the victim's size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope the victim cannot contract lycanthropy from that lycanthrope. Afflicted lycanthropes cannot pass on the curse of lycanthropy.

Calculations:

Stats
Str 30 +4 Gheden +6 Half Troll +4 Voidmind +8 Half Clay Golem = 52
Dex 16 -2 Gheden +2 Half Troll +2 Voidmind -2 Half Clay Golem = 16
Con 28 +6 Half Troll +4 Voidmind +4 Half Clay Golem = 42
Int 8 -2 Gheden -2 Half Troll +2 Voidmind -6 Half Clay Golem = 1
Wis 14 +2 Were-Dire-Bat = 16
Cha 10 -4 Gheden -2 Half Troll -2 Voidmind -6 Half Clay Golem = 1

Note that because Voidmind and Half-Clay Golem are applied ontop of everything else, their Con bonus to HP applies to both War Troll and Were-Dire-Bat HD. Whereas the Half Troll Con bonus to HP is applied early on and so only applies to War-Troll.

Base Saves
Fort: 4 Base War Troll + 4 Were-Dire-Bat = 8
Will: 8 Base War Troll + 4 Were-Dire-Bat = 12
Ref: 8 Base War Troll + 4 Were-Dire-Bat = 12

Feats
Dire Bat: Alertness, Stealthy
Feats: A lycanthrope receives Iron Will as a bonus feat.
Feats: Ghedens gain Endurance, Diehard, and Toughness as bonus feats.
Feats: A voidmind creature gains Alertness, Combat Reflexes, and Great Fortitude, if the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn't already have these feats.



Old Alternate Version:

Emerald Legionnaire (Were Shark Variant)

Half-Clay-Golem Voidmind Were-Dire-Bat/Were-Dire-Shark Gheden Half-Troll War-Troll

Giant Form
Size/Type: Large Giant (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 12d8+120 plus 4d8+12 plus 18d8+66 plus 136 (34 HD, average 487 HP)
Initiative: +3
Speed: base speed 40 ft. (May decrease if wearing Medium or Heavy Armor)
Armor Class: 19 (-1 size, +7 natural armor, +3 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +28/+53 (+57 with Tentacle)
Attack: claw +52 melee (1d8+21)
Full Attack: 2 claws +52 melee (1d8+21) and Tentacle +52 melee (1d8+31) and bite +48 melee (1d8+10) (after WF:Bite and Improved Natural Attack); Can wield Martial Weapons if needed
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (tentacle up to 15 ft.)
Special Attacks: Dazing blow, Rend 2d8+31 (Claws), Cone of Slime, Constrict 1d8+31 (Tentacle), Improved Grab (Tentacle and Bite), Swallow Whole (Bite), Sentient Tentacle, Berserk, Cursed Wound
Special Qualities: Alternate form, Haste, DR 10/adamantine & bludgeoning, DR 5/magic, Darkvision 90 ft, Low-light Vision, Blind Sense, Scent, Keen Scent, Regeneration 9, Fast Healing 5, Dead Nerves, Immunities, Magic Immunity, Spell Resistance 44, Immune to Piercing and Slashing Weapons, Mind Flayer Host, Bat Empathy, Shark Empathy
Saves: Fort +39, Ref +26, Will +41 (With Steadfast Determination)
Abilities: Str 52, Dex 16, Con 42, Int 1, Wis 18, Cha 1
Skills: (37 skill points unassigned)
Feats: 5 feats of choice from 12 Giant HD, which should include Steadfast Determination, Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. Plus the following bonus feats from templates: Iron Will, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Toughness (4), Weapon Focus (bite), Alertness, Stealthy, Endurance, Diehard, and Toughness, Combat Reflexes, and Great Fortitude
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (3-9)
Challenge Rating: 26
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: -


Combat
Emerald Legionnaires typically use their Improved Bind vestige feat to bind Haagenti, to grant them immunity to form changing attacks. When fighting, they normally Shift to Were-Dire-Shark Hybrid Form. This increases their Size Category to Huge, and gives them another +12 Str, +4 Dex and +6 Con. Furthermore, they Rage to gain another +4 Str and +4 Con. The stat changes boosts their Saves (especially their Fort Save), and their attack and damage. Legionnaires prefer to fight on the ground in hybrid form, but if facing flying or aquatic opponents, they can shift to Dire-Bat or Dire Shark forms respectively.


Immunities
Regeneration (Ex): Unlike with their lesser cousins, acid (not fire) deals normal damage to a war troll. If a war troll loses a limb or a body part, the lost portion regrows in 2d4 minutes. The creatures can reattach the secered member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Dead Nerves (Ex): A gheden has a weak sense of touch and is incapable of feeling pain. It is unaffected by nonlethal damage, stunning and death from massive damage. This lack of sensation also imposes a -8 penalty on any skill check that involves fine motor control or a sense of touch, such as Open Lock or Sleight of Hand checks, but grants a +4 bonus on Concentration checks provoked by damage.

Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the Gheden, there is a 50% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated, and damage is instead rolled normally. If a Gheden wears magic armor with any form of the fortification quality, use the better percentage value.

Immunities (Ex): A gheden is immune to fear and confusion effects and energy drain attacks. A voidmind creature has immunity to acid and mind-affecting spells and abilities (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). It is also immune to ability damage, ability drain and energy drain.

Spell Resistance (Ex): Voidmind creatures gain spell reistance equal to 10 + Hit Dice (44 for an Emerald Legionnaire without advancement).

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A move earth spell drives the golem back 120 feet and deals 3d12 points of damage to it.

A disintegrate spell slows the golem (as the slow spell) for 1d6 rounds and deals 1d12 points of damage.

An earthquake spell cast directly at a clay golem stops it from moving on its next turn and deals 5d10 points of damage. The golem gets no saving throw against any of these effects.

Any magical attack against a clay golem that deals acid damage heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a clay golem hit by the breath weapon of a black dragon heals 7 points of damage if the attack would have dealt 22 points of damage. A clay golem gets no saving throw against magical attacks that deal acid damage.

Immunity to Slashing and Piercing (Ex): Slashing and piercing weapons, whether normal or magical, deal no damage to a clay half-golem.


Attacks
Dazing Blow (Ex): The force of a war troll's blow can be overwhelming. If a war troll hits with a weapon or claw attack, the opponent must make a Fortitude save vs DC 16 + Con Modifier (32 without shifting or rage) or be dazed for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Rend (Ex): If a half-troll hits with both claw attacks, it latches onto the opponent's body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals 2x the damage dice of a Claw attack + 1-1/2 Strength modifier (2d8+31 without shifting or rage).

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dire shark must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe in the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A dire shark can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to one size smaller by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d6+6 points of bludgeoning damage plus 1d8+4 points of acid damage per round from the sharkfs digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out using a light slashing or piercing weapon by dealing 25 points of damage to the shark's digestive tract (AC 13). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Huge dire sharkfs gullet can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium or Small, 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive, or 512 Fine or smaller opponents.

Cone of Slime (Su): Once per day as a standard action, a voidmind creature can expel the psionically charged slime in its head in a 30 ft cone. the attack deals 1d6 points of acid damage per Hit Die of the voidmind creature (maximum 20d6). A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 voidmind creature's racial Hit Dice + voidmind creature's Con modifier) halves the damage (DC 43 without shifting or rage). In addition, any creature that takes damage from the spray takes a -2 penalty on its Will saves and is stunned for 1d4+1 rounds (Fortitude save negates the stun, save DC same as above). The psionic slime replenishes itself automatically in 24 hours. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Constrict (Ex): A voidmind creature gains the ability to constrict its victim with a successful grapple check. When it constricts, one of its tentacles deals damage based on the creature's size (see the table below), plus its strength bonus x1-1/2.

{table]Size| Constrict Damage
Tiny| 1d3
Small| 1d4
Medium| 1d6
Large| 1d8
Huge| 2d6[/table]

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a voidmind creature must hit a creature of its size category or smaller with its tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. A voidmind creature has a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks made with its tentacle. If the creature wins the graaple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Sentient Tentacle (Ex): A voidmind creature's tentacle attacks of its own accord. The creature can direct it to attack certain targets, but the psionic nature of the tentacle enables it to flex and move in combat without hindering the creature's other combat abilities. A voidmind grimlock that has successfully grappled a creature with its tentacle can attack another creature at no penalty, as long as that creature is within a distance equal to the tentacle's reach.

Berserk (Ex): A clay halfgolem that takes damage in combat flies into a berserk rage the following round, attacking wildly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, and -2 AC. A clay half-golem cannot end its berserk state voluntarily. If the clay half-golem is a barbarian, the bonuses and the penalty are cumulative with the barbarian rage class feature. (Not included in the stat block above)

Cursed Wound (Ex): The damage a clay golem deals doesn't heal naturally and resists healing spells. A character attempting to cast a conjuration (healing) spell on a creature damaged by a clay golem must succeed on a DC 26 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the injured character.

Haste (Su): After it has engaged in at least 1 round of combat on a given day, a clay half-golem can use haste upon itself once during that day as a free action. The effect lasts 3 rounds and is otherwise the same as the spell.


Racial Skills and Saves
Saves: A Gheden creature gains a +2 racial bonus on saves against fear, poison, disease, paralysis and spells from the necromancy school. Half Clay Golems gain +2 Racial bonus to Fortitude saves (included in the Stat Block above).

Skills: Ghedens have a +4 racial bonus on Intimidate checks. Voidmind creatures have a +4 racial bons on Bluff, Escape Artist, and Intimidate checks. Otherwise same as base creature.

Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or dire animals of their animal form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal's attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."


Senses
Detect Mindless Undead (Sp): At will, a gheden can detect any form of mindless undead. This ability works like the detect undead spell (caster level equals gheden's total HD), but it only detects mindless undead.

Scent (Ex): A lycanthrope has the scent ability in any form.

Blindsense (Ex): A dire bat uses echolocation to pinpoint creatures within 40 feet. Opponents still have total concealment against the bat unless it can actually see them.

Keen Scent (Ex): A dire shark can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and can detect blood in the water at a range of up to 1 mile.


Miscellaneous
Alternate Form (Su): An Emerald Legionnaire can assume a bipedal dire bat hybrid form, a bipedal dire shark hybrid form, the form of a dire bat, or the form of a dire shark.

Call of Undeath (Ex): There is a 3% chance per Hit Die that upon a Gheden's death, it will rise as a Zombie.

Detection (Ex): Gheden registers as undead creatures for the purposes of spells and effects that detect undead (such as detect undead). A Gheden counts as half its HD for the purposes of aura strength.

Necrotic Life (Ex): Even on a failed save, a Gheden suffers only half damage from spells and effects that deal hit point damage due to negative energy, such as inflict spells, and with a successful save, a Gheden suffers no damage.

Slow Aging (Ex): Upon reaching maturity, a Gheden ages at one-forth of the base creature's normal rate.

Turn Kind (Ex): A Gheden cleric gains a +2 bonus on checks made to turn, rebuke, command or bolster zombies.

Vulnerability to Holy Water (Ex): Holy water scalds the flesh of a Gheden, dealing 1d4 points of damage per direct hit with a flask.

Vulnerability to Turning (Ex): Any turning attempt targeting the Gheden that would turn or rebuke an undead of the Gheden's HD imposes a -4 penalty on the half-undead's attacks, saves, skill checks, and ability checks. This effect lasts for 10 rounds or until the creature that turned or rebuked the Gheden attacks the Gheden. A turn attempt that would destroy or command an undead of equivalent Hit Dice instead stuns a Gheden for 2d4 rounds.

Mind Flayer Host (Su): Three mind flayer's form a bond with any voidmind creature they create. A different mind flayer cannot bond itself to a voidmind creature after creation. The creature's masters are instantly aware if the creature takes any damage, wanders out of range of their control, or is the target of any magic.

Also as a result of this bond, the masters can, as a standard action, see and hear through the eyes and ears of their bonded voidmind creature to a range of 5 miles. Maintaining this link requires a mindflayer to concentrate, but the mind flayer remains aware of its surroundings and can move normally.

Finally, any one of the three masters can take control of the voidmind creature, at will, as the dominate monster spell (no save). While controlling the voidmind in this fashion, a mind flayer can manifest its own innate psionic abilities through the voidmind creature, as though the creature were manifesting the ability itself. Any of the mind flayer's psionic powers used in this fashion can target or affect creatures within range, line of sight, and line of effect of the voidmind creature. So for example, a mind flayer can use plane shift to send the voidmind to another plane, or it could send itself to another plane. Like-wise, the mind flayer could use suggestion on a target it sees through the voidmind creature's eyes.


Animal/Hybrid Form Only
Damage Reduction (Ex): A natural lycanthrope in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver.

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su): Any humanoid or giant hit by a natural lycanthropefs bite attack in animal or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortutude save or contract lycanthropy. If the victim's size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope the victim cannot contract lycanthropy from that lycanthrope. Afflicted lycanthropes cannot pass on the curse of lycanthropy.


Wow, thats a lot. I think its ready to go up against the Damn Crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301). :smallbiggrin:

Calculations:

Stats
Str 30 +4 Gheden +6 Half Troll +4 Voidmind +8 Half Clay Golem = 52
Dex 16 -2 Gheden +2 Half Troll +2 Voidmind -2 Half Clay Golem = 16
Con 28 +6 Half Troll +4 Voidmind +4 Half Clay Golem = 42
Int 8 -2 Gheden -2 Half Troll +2 Voidmind -6 Half Clay Golem = 1
Wis 14 +2 Were-Dire-Bat +2 Were-Dire-Shark = 18
Cha 10 -4 Gheden -2 Half Troll -2 Voidmind -6 Half Clay Golem = 1

Note that because Voidmind and Half-Clay Golem are applied ontop of everything else, their Con bonus to HP applies to both War Troll and Were-Dire-Bat/Shark HD. Whereas the Half Troll Con bonus to HP is applied early on and so only applies to War-Troll.

Base Saves
Fort: 4 Base War Troll + 4 Were-Dire-Bat + 11 Were-Dire-Shark = 19
Will: 8 Base War Troll + 4 Were-Dire-Bat + 11 Were-Dire-Shark = 23
Ref: 8 Base War Troll + 4 Were-Dire-Bat + 11 Were-Dire-Shark = 23

Feats
Dire Shark: Improved Natural Attack (bite), Toughness (4), Weapon Focus (bite)
Dire Bat: Alertness, Stealthy
Feats: A lycanthrope receives Iron Will as a bonus feat.
Feats: Ghedens gain Endurance, Diehard, and Toughness as bonus feats.
Feats: A voidmind creature gains Alertness, Combat Reflexes, and Great Fortitude, if the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn't already have these feats.

Starbuck_II
2009-01-24, 11:46 AM
Unname spell from Tome of Magic works. All the Spellcaster has to do is get rid of the SR aspect.
Wouldn't Innate Spell Feat work (assuming you were Epic and could afford spell slot increase that high?)

Khatoblepas
2009-01-24, 10:02 PM
Would clever use of Illusions (by a master of illusions, naturally) and a Gate trap keyed to the Positive Energy Plane defeat these guys real easy like?

I mean, just cover it up, the blind, blundering fools wander in. (Int 1, you see), and POOF. plane shifted to the +EP. No save, no SR. Put these traps EVERYWHERE, and cover them right up. The Mind Flayers are smart, but they're not THAT smart.

And sit back, and watch the lightshow. These guys may be invincible in single or mass combat, but they're no match for ingenuity. Substitute Positive Energy Plane for any other plane where they will die. Paraelemental Plane of Vacuum? No air. They suffocate. Far Realm? Things from Beyond your Imagination take care of it.

It's an awesome idea for a campaign, though. Invincible Enemy ravaging the land. Only YOU can stop them! Illusions are these guy's weakness.

Collin152
2009-01-25, 12:25 AM
Would clever use of Illusions (by a master of illusions, naturally) and a Gate trap keyed to the Positive Energy Plane defeat these guys real easy like?

I mean, just cover it up, the blind, blundering fools wander in. (Int 1, you see), and POOF. plane shifted to the +EP. No save, no SR. Put these traps EVERYWHERE, and cover them right up. The Mind Flayers are smart, but they're not THAT smart.

And sit back, and watch the lightshow. These guys may be invincible in single or mass combat, but they're no match for ingenuity. Substitute Positive Energy Plane for any other plane where they will die. Paraelemental Plane of Vacuum? No air. They suffocate. Far Realm? Things from Beyond your Imagination take care of it.

It's an awesome idea for a campaign, though. Invincible Enemy ravaging the land. Only YOU can stop them! Illusions are these guy's weakness.

Well, Will saves are based off of Wisdom, not Intelligence.
Gate spells don't last that long, and are 9th level spells.
And Mind Flayers have Plane Shift at Will, add to the fact that we have at least one with Psion levels, and it's simple enough to retreive the buggers.

Aether
2009-01-25, 04:59 AM
Base Attack caps out at 20. The Legionnaire should have 4 iterative attacks for some of its weapons...

I reccomend taking some of the Multi-Attack feat trees to get extra claw and bite attacks.


How many attacks can the tentacle get? Does it benefit from a full BAB: not needing "multiattack/imp/greater/perfect multiattack" feats to get iterative attacks?

JeminiZero
2009-01-25, 05:25 AM
Unname spell from Tome of Magic works. All the Spellcaster has to do is get rid of the SR aspect.


Unname requires the target to have an Int of 3 or higher. It would work on the Mindflayers, but not the near-mindless Legionnaire.



Wouldn't Innate Spell Feat work (assuming you were Epic and could afford spell slot increase that high?)


There are 2 innate spell feats, both of which convert the spell to an SLA, which still has to get by magic immunity.



Would clever use of Illusions (by a master of illusions, naturally) and a Gate trap keyed to the Positive Energy Plane defeat these guys real easy like?


That depends on the feat selection. If they all have steadfast determination, their Fort save as is, is so high they won't even fail on a 1 vs the DC 20. So they can exist indefinitely, making their saves every round, and build up ludicrous amounts of temp HP.



I mean, just cover it up, the blind, blundering fools wander in. (Int 1, you see), and POOF. plane shifted to the +EP. No save, no SR. Put these traps EVERYWHERE, and cover them right up. The Mind Flayers are smart, but they're not THAT smart.


The mind-flayers aren't just smart, they can manifest things that can see through illusions like Psionic True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm). They put this on the leader of a squad, and then monitor the surrounding through his senses. Detecting and dispelling the illusion should then be easy.

Even if they are shifted, the mind-flayers can just pull them out with any of their plane shifting powers (like astral traveller (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralTraveler.htm) and astral caravan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralCaravan.htm).)



Paraelemental Plane of Vacuum? No air. They suffocate.


Possibly, but they can also hold their breath for a really really long time (2 rounds per point of constitution, and their modified Con score is 48, so thats 96 rounds for 9.6 minutes.) During which the Mind Flayers can either port them out, or throw on adapt body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/adaptBody.htm) to keep them going.



Far Realm? Things from Beyond your Imagination take care of it.


Unlikely. The Far Realms usually try to kill you by mind affecting or ability damage/drain and the Legion is immune to both. As it stands, a single Legionnaire without outside help is powerful enough to grapple/constrict a Damn Crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301) to death, provided the Crab is dumb enough to start and sustain the grapple in the first place (because the Legions AB is not high enough to consistently hit the Crab's AC).



It's an awesome idea for a campaign, though. Invincible Enemy ravaging the land. Only YOU can stop them! Illusions are these guy's weakness.


Yeah. :smallbiggrin: But they have other campaign uses though.

1. Perhaps the Mind-Flayers are still experimenting with the production protocol. The PCs must find and stop them before they perfect the Legion. Along the way, they fight increasingly advanced and powerful legionnaires. Best used a side plot to a larger, more overreaching campaign.

2. Or play the other side of the Emerald Legion Setup quest. The world is falling to something (see number 3), and the Mind-Flayers promise they can help reverse the tide. But they want the PCs to help them gather the requisite materials (capture trolls, find schematics for the Half-Clay-Golem graft etc). The Campaign ends with the PCs leading the first completed batch against a BBEG with an equally terrifying army.

3. Normally, the other planes hold creatures far beyond the material plane. The Emerald Legion is loyal, powerful and can be mass-produced, marking a fundamental shift in the balance of power. It is now possible for denizens of the material plane (provided they have the support of mind-flayers) to challenge other planes as they see fit. Is there a celestial/infernal war? Mortals are now mighty enough to intervene. Is an elder evil awakening and unleashing a relentless tide of undead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59107)? The Legion can step in and stop them dead in their tracks. The possibilities are endless.



Base Attack caps out at 20. The Legionnaire should have 4 iterative attacks for some of its weapons...


That depends on the source of BAB. It caps at 20 for class levels, but not for racial HD. So a Tarrasque (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tarrasque) has a BAB equal to its HD. Natural Weapons (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Natural_weapons) do not get iterative attacks.



How many attacks can the tentacle get? Does it benefit from a full BAB: not needing "multiattack/imp/greater/perfect multiattack" feats to get iterative attacks?


Multiattack (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Multiattack) doesn't give you more attacks, it reduces the penalty for existing secondary attacks. And since the only secondary attack this has is the Bite, its not as worthwhile.

Khatoblepas
2009-01-25, 08:40 AM
*snip*

Touché. I can only really find one thing that can destroy them now (with a quick look) The Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm). It has a save DC higher than your saves, and affects constructs, since it's a Disintegration effect. Likewise, an Entropomancer can find a Sphere of Annihiliation and use it against them, since it allows NO SAVE. Of course, you gotta be careful of Rod of Cancellations, but then, a high enough level party can just spam Disjunction until the rods die.

Hmm, apart from that, I can't think of anything nonepic level that would actually affect them.

Flickerdart
2009-01-25, 10:19 AM
Why does the Gate trap matter? The beauty of these guys is that they can be mass-produced. So, you lost a few. Your foe will run out of spell slots before they deplete your force. Eh, I suppose the controlling flayers could get them back if they really wanted to, but they don't have to.

JeminiZero
2009-01-26, 01:58 AM
Touché. I can only really find one thing that can destroy them now (with a quick look) The Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm). It has a save DC higher than your saves, and affects constructs, since it's a Disintegration effect.


There *is* a solution to that but it involves copious amounts of Gouda, Cheddar and Mozarella. There is no limit to the number of Lycan templates you can stack on the suckers (which can be done at virtually no additional cost to the process), so you can add Were-Dire-Bear, Were-Dire-Boar, Were-Dire-Hawk, Were-Giant-Squid etc etc until their HD/HP/BAB/saves are however high you want. I merely limited myself to the bare essentials of Were-Dire-Bat and Were-Dire-Shark.



Likewise, an Entropomancer can find a Sphere of Annihiliation and use it against them, since it allows NO SAVE. Of course, you gotta be careful of Rod of Cancellations, but then, a high enough level party can just spam Disjunction until the rods die.


Noted.

nyarlathotep
2009-05-21, 06:58 PM
Don't ravages bypass the immunity to ability damage in which case their low intelligence and charisma would be a problem.

Chronos
2009-05-21, 10:28 PM
Since someone else already bumped this thread, I don't feel guilty about pointing out that a magic adamantine morningstar coated with Trollbane would do real damage to these guys. That bypasses all of their damage reductions, and morningstars count as both piercing and bludgeoning, so they can both deal damage through the clay grafts and apply Trollbane.

The simplest method to protect against Trollbane is probably to find some way to give them poison immunity, since it's considered a poison.

JeminiZero
2009-05-23, 01:19 AM
Thats a grey area in the rules actually. Dungeonscape specifies that "a successful hit with a slashing or piercing weapon that has been coated in trollbane will expose the target to the poison". So it would not be unreasonable to think that slashing/piercing immunity would stop said exposure even if the weapon incidentally also did bludgeoning damage.

ColonelFuster
2009-09-16, 09:13 PM
RAW states that once something is changed to an undead with a template, it cannot turn into something else- they're at the top of the type pyramid. This "obscure rule" is going to keep coming back to bite you. Any way to wait until the end of the process to breed them with zombies?

Another_Poet
2009-09-16, 09:48 PM
*wipes a tear*

Beautiful!

I need to arrange a gladiatorial match between some PC's and one of these...

JeminiZero
2009-09-16, 10:05 PM
RAW states that once something is changed to an undead with a template, it cannot turn into something else- they're at the top of the type pyramid. This "obscure rule" is going to keep coming back to bite you. Any way to wait until the end of the process to breed them with zombies?

I don't think it matters. The undead are only used in the first generation for breeding to produce gheden offspring (RAW explicitly states that the offspring of the undead is NOT undead). We do not actually turn any of the 2nd/3rd generation into undead.

taltamir
2010-01-13, 11:18 PM
this is beautiful... (emerald legion version)

Question, isn't an effective way to kill the emerald legion is to put them in an anti magic field, followed by lots of water (so they drown)

Question 2, isn't it possible to resist such an army by crafting a bunch of antimagic bracers, then hitting them with anti magic field and giving them the bracers so they are free? they might be evil but they are intelligent. "wear this and you remain free and gain immunity to the few things that could harm you (at the cost of were shapeshifting.)

JeminiZero
2010-01-14, 09:24 PM
Question, isn't an effective way to kill the emerald legion is to put them in an anti magic field, followed by lots of water (so they drown)


Possible but not easy. Even without shifting, they can berserk and achieve a Str of 56 and Con of 46. That means they can hold their breaths for 92 rounds (or 9 minutes plus) during which time they can try and smash through whatever is holding them to exit the AMF (which are normally quite small).



Question 2, isn't it possible to resist such an army by crafting a bunch of antimagic bracers, then hitting them with anti magic field and giving them the bracers so they are free? they might be evil but they are intelligent. "wear this and you remain free and gain immunity to the few things that could harm you (at the cost of were shapeshifting.)


Yes. That said, their Masters could easily try to sunder the shackles to regain control. E.g. Within an AMF, Legionnaires can't fly. So they could use another Emerald Legionnaire, and fire off Crystal Shards from a safe distance.

Furthermore, every self-respecting Mind Flayer cabal should school themselves in the Evil Overlord List (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html).



48. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge.

taltamir
2010-01-14, 09:26 PM
48. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge.

Ah, such pure words of wisdom :)
I love the evil overlord list.

Aharon
2010-03-31, 11:01 AM
Sorry to bump this thread, but you referred to it in a recent post in the thread asking about the cube.

I think you were dismissing the morningstar trollbane attack a bit to fast. Your whole construction heavily relies on RAW - for example, stacking lycan strains is probably not intended. RAW, it doesn't matter wether the weapon the trollbane was applied to deals damage with its bludgeoning part - although it was probably intended otherwise.

JeminiZero
2010-03-31, 07:48 PM
I think you were dismissing the morningstar trollbane attack a bit to fast. Your whole construction heavily relies on RAW - for example, stacking lycan strains is probably not intended.

Intent is highly subjective. One of the biggest sticking point in any RAW vs RAI debate is that we generally have little to judge the original writer's intent beyond the passage he wrote.



RAW, it doesn't matter wether the weapon the trollbane was applied to deals damage with its bludgeoning part - although it was probably intended otherwise.

There is actually some precedence for this. In core, it is stated that for injury poisons (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Poisons) (such as Trollbane) "If a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison does not affect it".

In this case the creature has slashing/piercing immunity, so one can apply this rule to the fact that the slashing/piercing portion of the weapon did no damage at all, and hence did not expose the creature to poison.

taltamir
2010-04-01, 01:55 AM
is the emerald legion immune to magical disease?

JeminiZero
2010-04-01, 02:02 AM
is the emerald legion immune to magical disease?

No. Although immunity to ability damage and drain makes most diseases ineffective.

BobVosh
2010-04-01, 02:37 AM
Hmm. On this page there is 2.5 counts of thread necromancy. Weird. (a couple of weeks short of the 3rd count)

JeminiZero
2010-04-01, 02:50 AM
Yeah, but I'm still editting and modifying stuff in the first post, as more ideas come along.

JeminiZero
2010-04-01, 03:31 AM
How do these guys fare against the 'implacable blade (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/implacable-blade)' from the Eberron Explorer's Handbook? I'm assuming the "immune to nonlethal" protects them (presumably you can just get an 'implacable mace' for the slash/pierce bit), but there's probably some 'untyped damage' enchantment to toss on the blade, like 'bane' *shrug*.

The general rule of thumb is that unless an attack specifies that it overcomes regeneration, it doesn't. And unless it overcomes regeneration, it is negated by non-lethal immunity.

Proof against Transmutation is already noted in the "Production" section. I was hoping for other forms of protection that do no rely on equipment that can be sundered/disjoined.

Aharon
2010-04-01, 07:46 AM
Still not convinced:


Some weapons deal damage of multiple types. If a weapon is of two types, the damage it deals is not half one type and half another; all of it is both types. Therefore, a creature would have to be immune to both types of damage to ignore any of the damage from such a weapon.

On another note, Epic Binders also have access to Spheres of Annihilation. And for them, it doesn't rely on DM Fiat to get it.
In Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, there is also a 9th level spell, Annihilation, that creates a Sphere of Annihilation. It's SR:Yes, though, so you still need to make it supernatural.

I looked into Binding and Shadow Magic to find supernatural effects the legion might succumb to, but I didn't find anything except the above sphere. Shadowcasters can get a supernatural Greater Shadow Evocation, though. If there's any evocation of up to 7th level that might affect the legion negatively, they can get it through, too.

Concerning Spell Immunity: the 3.5 FAQ ruled against it, but one could argue that the 20th level Beguiler ability punches through magic immunity.

By the way, the Legendary Artisan ++ thing was errata'd, so no XP-free creation via that way.

With Assume Supernatural Ability, somebody with a high Con could get a Corporeal Instability that isn't trivial for the Legion to save against. As it renders them unable to use slotted items, it also opens up the possibility to kill them via one of the ways equipment normally protects them against.

I'm AFB, so I'm not entirely sure, but don't spellblades only apply if you, not your equipment, are targeted? So a targeted dispel against their protecting equipment would still be possible - preferably chained so I can effect up to 20 items they are wearing/holding.

Another point, concerning half-claygolemhood: The Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020803a) for Monster Manual 2 seems to say the type changes to construct regardless of wether the save succeeds or not - the save only determines wether the creature gets the construct traits.


If the character succeeds at all the required saves, he or
she takes on the attributes of a half-golem as described
below—except that the character retains his or her
alignment, gains a +4 bonus to his or her Constitution
score, and does not gain construct traits.[...]Upon failing the Will save, the character
has no Constitution score and gains construct traits. [...]The character’s type changes to
construct.

Creatures can have a type without having the traits the type normally conveys, the SRD says "A construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). "
This would be the case here. It doesn't matter for regeneration, as they retain their Con, but it does matter for instant slaying via Slaying Arrow and Mace of Smiting.

Plus, while they are similar, grafts and half-golem limbs aren't the same thing. Grafts are a concept that was introduced later. Half-golem limbs are a weird kind of spell completion items.

I like the campaign ideas, by the way. Might use the legion some time in the future.

JeminiZero
2010-04-01, 09:10 AM
On another note, Epic Binders also have access to Spheres of Annihilation. And for them, it doesn't rely on DM Fiat to get it.


The tagline does say "near-invincible". Not completely invincible. As mentioned in the main post I am still looking for ways around these things.



Concerning Spell Immunity: the 3.5 FAQ ruled against it, but one could argue that the 20th level Beguiler ability punches through magic immunity.

By the way, the Legendary Artisan ++ thing was errata'd, so no XP-free creation via that way.


Well you can't have it both ways. Either you are using FAQ/Errata or you aren't.



With Assume Supernatural Ability, somebody with a high Con could get a Corporeal Instability that isn't trivial for the Legion to save against. As it renders them unable to use unslotted items, it also opens up the possibility to kill them via one of the ways equipment normally protects them against.


Actually since polymorph/shapechange explicitly uses the changed creatures physical scores (including constitution), having a high Con score before changing shape doesn't actually help.


Another point, concerning half-claygolemhood: The Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020803a) for Monster Manual 2 seems to say the type changes to construct regardless of wether the save succeeds or not - the save only determines wether the creature gets the construct traits.

The wording in that portion is sufficiently vague that the Type Changing can be associated either with the failed will save, or with the graft as a whole. However since it is an enhancement (rather than Errata), we can take it that its intended meaning is probably similiar to the original passage in MM2: "The character's type changes to construct once a Will save is failed."

taltamir
2010-04-01, 05:40 PM
No. Although immunity to ability damage and drain makes most diseases ineffective.

there was recently a post asking for diseases and someone posted an epic rot disease that kills you in a few rounds.

edit:
here it is http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147055


Hunefer Rot (Su)

Supernatural disease—slam, Fort save (DC 35), incubation period instantaneous; damage 1d6 temporary Con. Unlike normal diseases, hunefer rot requires a victim to make a successful saving throw every round or take another 1d6 points of temporary Constitution damage. The rot continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or receives a remove disease spell or similar magic. An afflicted creature that dies shrivels away into sand unless both remove disease and raise dead (or better) are cast on the remains within 2 rounds. If the remains are not so treated, on the third round the dust swirls and forms an 18 HD mummy with the dead foe’s equipment under the hunefer’s command. (The mummy dust epic spell has statistics for an 18 HD mummy.)
I guess i was wrong... they are immune to ability score damage so this only serves to make them more deadly (as they can infect people with this disease)

but there has to be a disease somewhere that just kills you if you don't remove it in X rounds

the_archduke
2010-04-01, 06:40 PM
To protect against a Sphere of Annihilation, couldn't the Mindflayer cabal:

1. Attempt to control the sphere through their voidminds with a regular control check?

if not

2. The Spell-to-Power Erudite needs to spam Gate until the sphere is destroyed. Some Emerald Legionnaires might be lost, but Spheres of Annihilation can't be that common.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation

JaronK
2010-04-01, 07:16 PM
One nasty way to do this would be to use rapid Flowing Time Genesis to create a hyper plane that your army can breed on. By making it also Timeless you don't need to eat and they don't age (effectively) until you suddenly release the horde.

Also, consider using Lernean Lumis. They're immune to everything except Disintigrate and maybe Spheres of Annihilation, and they only require a single template (so you can just get them to breed with each other). 4HD ECL 10 critters that automatically dual wield.

JaronK

Godskook
2010-04-01, 07:27 PM
He already lists genesis as a means of mass-production, and eating is a form of bribery, helping to ensure that the Legion actually like their masters.

Aharon
2010-04-02, 04:34 AM
@Bludgeoning/Piercing Trollbane
You didn't reply to this, so I assume you agree?


The tagline does say "near-invincible". Not completely invincible. As mentioned in the main post I am still looking for ways around these things.

Okay. I just wanted to show some other ways to get attacks that are otherwise hard to come by. The entropomancer relies on DM Fiat to get the Sphere of Annihilation, the two ways I mentioned don't, so they might be considered "other" holes in the defenses.


Well you can't have it both ways. Either you are using FAQ/Errata or you aren't.


Firstly, I don't think FAQ and Errata are the same thing. Secondly, I don't know your stance on this topic, so I mentioned both. Just trying to be helpful :smallsmile:


Actually since polymorph/shapechange explicitly uses the changed creatures physical scores (including constitution), having a high Con score before changing shape doesn't actually help.


My bad, I actually meant Ability Rip, not Assume Supernatural Ability. Ability Rip is a Spell from Serpent Kingdoms that gives you one supernatural ability of a creature.
The same book also contains Trait Removal, a Sor/Wiz 5 spell with a casting time of 1 hour, Fort negates, SR: Yes, that removes one supernatural or extraordinary ability of a creature.
You could use that in battle with a supernatural limited wish, to take away one of their immunities to make them less resilient against your allies attacks. Perhaps two Trait Removals in a row to remove Magic immunity and Immunity against Level Drain, and then let a heap of lower spell casters blast away with enervations.

@Web Enhancement
Sure, you can interpret it that way. I thought of it as an update, but YMMV.

@the_archduke
A 27th level binder (26th if he took Favored in Guild) can summon Spheres of Annhilation for 27 rounds per day as a supernatural ability as a full-round action. If it is destroyed, he can summon a new one after 5 rounds.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-02, 04:38 AM
It's faster and easier just to get a ton of people who all have knowledge devotion.

Aharon
2010-04-02, 04:43 AM
And why would that be helpful?

JeminiZero
2010-04-02, 05:46 AM
@Bludgeoning/Piercing Trollbane
You didn't reply to this, so I assume you agree?

Not entirely. But the argument has essentially boiled down to DM fiat on how the rules are intepreted. The same with "how does the Illithid insta-kill brain eating attack interact with the fact a Voidmind's brain has been mostly replaced with Psionic Slime".



My bad, I actually meant Ability Rip, not Assume Supernatural Ability. Ability Rip is a Spell from Serpent Kingdoms that gives you one supernatural ability of a creature.
The same book also contains Trait Removal, a Sor/Wiz 5 spell with a casting time of 1 hour, Fort negates, SR: Yes, that removes one supernatural or extraordinary ability of a creature.
You could use that in battle with a supernatural limited wish, to take away one of their immunities to make them less resilient against your allies attacks. Perhaps two Trait Removals in a row to remove Magic immunity and Immunity against Level Drain, and then let a heap of lower spell casters blast away with enervations.


*facepalm* A level 5 spell that can kill an abomination? From the same book that gave us the Sarrukh? Why am I surprised? (Probably because its surprising how stuff this powerful has not been widely abused so far).

Anyway, I'll add that in to the list of reasons to get steadfast determination and boost Fort Saves.

Aharon
2010-04-03, 02:26 PM
Books that pose problems also offer solutions :smallsmile:

Serpent Kingdoms has four feats: poison resistance, poison immunity, petrification resistance and petrification immunity - adding a non-gear dependent way to defend against petrification and an absolutely non-debatable way to defend against trollbane. You need to have a racial bonus to saving throws against these effects to take them, though.

Last Laugh
2010-04-03, 02:33 PM
there was recently a post asking for diseases and someone posted an epic rot disease that kills you in a few rounds.

edit:
here it is http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147055


I guess i was wrong... they are immune to ability score damage so this only serves to make them more deadly (as they can infect people with this disease)

but there has to be a disease somewhere that just kills you if you don't remove it in X rounds

I love this post
Hey, I know how to kill them!! Wait, it just makes them stronger... poop

the_archduke
2010-04-09, 01:18 PM
The Umbral Blot's disintegration touch forces a fortitude save at a DC of 38. The legionnaire's fortitude save is already +29. With steadfast determination, he doesn't fail on a 1, so all he needs is +8 more to the fortitude save and it can eat an umbral blot for breakfast.

Greater Heroism would add +4 as a morale bonus. It wouldn't be constantly active, but you wouldn't be constantly fighting umbral blots either.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-19, 05:48 AM
Derp, I meant knowledge affiliation.

Anterean
2010-04-19, 06:12 AM
I havn´t read through this in its entirety but how about this



Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.


So wouldn´t it possible to starve, drown and choke your Ikea Tarrasques ?

Aharon
2010-04-19, 07:53 AM
@TML
okay... At least I know where to find Knowledge Devotion and what it does, but that is not the case for Knowledge affiliation. What is it and where can I find it? It wasn't in the Mango Index, or in the Prestige Classes and Feats sections of Crystal Keep.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-19, 08:07 AM
I havn´t read through this in its entirety but how about this



So wouldn´t it possible to starve, drown and choke your Ikea Tarrasques ?

As were-Dire Sharks, they can breathe water. Choking is only possible if they don't have the Necklaces of Adaptation, and I'm not certain about food.

Godskook
2010-04-19, 08:37 AM
As were-Dire Sharks, they can breathe water. Choking is only possible if they don't have the Necklaces of Adaptation, and I'm not certain about food.

Rings of Sustenance is already on the list

Aharon
2010-04-26, 07:01 AM
Reading the thread about Level Loss that is not Energy Drain, I just noted that Undead and Constructs are immune against Energy Drain, but not against negative levels. Though negative levels usually result in energy drain, they aren't the same.

Does that mean Supernatural Enervation is also effective against the legion?

JeminiZero
2010-04-26, 08:45 AM
Does that mean Supernatural Enervation is also effective against the legion?

No, their immunity to energy drain is a result of the Voidmind template, and applies regardless whether the source is spell or supernatural.

Aharon
2010-04-26, 10:19 AM
That's not what I meant. It's more similar to that "Maximized Twinned Magic Missile can be recalled with a 1st level Pearl of Power" exploit:

RAW, Energy Drain is not the same as Negative levels. Immunity to energy drain doesn't automatically bestow immunity to negative levels.

I know it's not commonly used - I didn't realize it till today. It would be perfectly ok to ignore it, but it's RAW and I thought I would share it. To be immune against negative levels, one has to search for an ability or an item that specifically renders one immune agaisnt those.

To support my position: Negative levels have an entry in the PHB-Glossary separate from Energy Drain. This wouldn't be neccessary if they were the same thing.

JeminiZero
2010-04-26, 11:47 AM
To support my position: Negative levels have an entry in the PHB-Glossary separate from Energy Drain. This wouldn't be neccessary if they were the same thing.

AFAIK, Energy Drain is the ability name. Negative Levels is the status that it inflicts. While negative levels can come from sources other than Energy Drain, the ones I am aware of are voluntary (like Schism).

anacalgion
2010-05-02, 08:55 PM
..........

Aharon
2010-05-03, 04:13 AM
There are other involuntary sources besides Enervation. Energy Ebb from SpC (undead excluded because of healing clause, constructs not) and souldrinking weapon from BoVD were the ones I found without looking through all available sourcebooks; I'm sure there are others. But as I said, although it is RAW, I haven't heard of any campaign it is used in, I don't even use it myself. Just goes to show that the Emerald Legion is indeed rather strong if I have to bring up something like that :smallsmile:

Nerdanel
2010-05-03, 08:32 AM
Would infecting the Emerald Legion with Festering Anger be safe enough to increase their Str score sky-high that way? Is there anything in the rules that makes it not work?

A potential problem for the Legion is their abysmal intelligence. They're dumber than your average squirrel unless a mind-flayer is constantly metaphorically holding their hand. That could lead into all kinds of suboptimal behavior, but on the other hand, the possibility of a Legionnaire intentionally putting on antimagic shackles and returning for revenge is very remote.

Darkxarth
2010-05-03, 08:35 AM
That's not what I meant. It's more similar to that "Maximized Twinned Magic Missile can be recalled with a 1st level Pearl of Power" exploit:

RAW, Energy Drain is not the same as Negative levels. Immunity to energy drain doesn't automatically bestow immunity to negative levels.

I know it's not commonly used - I didn't realize it till today. It would be perfectly ok to ignore it, but it's RAW and I thought I would share it. To be immune against negative levels, one has to search for an ability or an item that specifically renders one immune agaisnt those.

To support my position: Negative levels have an entry in the PHB-Glossary separate from Energy Drain. This wouldn't be neccessary if they were the same thing.


Energy Drain
Necromancy
This spell functions like enervation, except that the creature struck gains 2d4 negative levels, and the negative levels last longer.
Would this spell count or not? It is called Energy Drain, but it is an evolution of Enervation.

It seems to me that immunity to Energy Drain bestows protection from negative levels by Energy Drain. So, for instance, holding an Unholy Sword if you are good aligned bestows negative levels, but immunity to Energy Drain would not negate those negative levels. I would say that Enervation, Energy Ebb, and Energy Drain all fall into the same area as the Energy Drain ability, and so anything with immunity to Energy Drain would be immune to the effects of those three spells.

EDIT: But, perhaps that is RAI rather than RAW.

TheMadLinguist
2010-05-03, 02:58 PM
It's in Complete Champion under affiliations. Look at the highest level membership bonus.

jiriku
2010-07-19, 09:43 AM
JZ, just wanted to say kudos to you for developing this. IMC, I've restatted war trolls as giants instead of monstrous humanoids, which simplifies the production process slightly, and the BBEG is cooperating with a mindflayer cabal to breed the legionnaires. At this point, he only has a handful of war trolls and a pair of gheden war trolls as elite guards, and the players have already grown to respect and fear them as adversaries. They're burning divination spells trying to figure out what sort of trollish monstrosity is coming next. The Emerald Legion has definitely added richness, depth, and enjoyment to my campaign. Thanks!

*.*.*.*
2010-07-19, 09:50 AM
Lob bag of holding+portable holes at them? Really gotta be fast though

JeminiZero
2010-07-19, 10:24 AM
The Emerald Legion has definitely added richness, depth, and enjoyment to my campaign. Thanks!

You're Welcome. :smallsmile:


Lob bag of holding+portable holes at them? Really gotta be fast though

Mindflayer Psionic Support. Planeshift.

Myth
2010-07-19, 10:40 AM
Can't a Pimp Incantatrix with Leadership (for debuffing, someone suggested Pally of Tyranny/Hexblade) just Disintegrate / Chain Disingegrate your army even pre-Epic levels?

Ranger Mattos
2010-07-19, 01:15 PM
*cowers in terror*

Still, pretty sweet. Realistically, how could these things be stopped?

Vulaas
2010-07-19, 03:23 PM
Long, drawn out way of gaining immunity to spheres:

The trolls that advance per class levels while conquering the planes take cleric levels to gain casting, and then Entropomancer levels to gain the capstone immunity.

Also, I believe they would qualify for Epic feats, with all their animal hit dice. I don't suppose that means we could give them (via PsiReform or DCFS) some new tricks there?

Roland St. Jude
2010-07-19, 04:21 PM
JZ, just wanted to say kudos to you for developing this. IMC, I've restatted war trolls as giants instead of monstrous humanoids, which simplifies the production process slightly, and the BBEG is cooperating with a mindflayer cabal to breed the legionnaires. At this point, he only has a handful of war trolls and a pair of gheden war trolls as elite guards, and the players have already grown to respect and fear them as adversaries. They're burning divination spells trying to figure out what sort of trollish monstrosity is coming next. The Emerald Legion has definitely added richness, depth, and enjoyment to my campaign. Thanks!

Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread Necromancy. Don't do that. Do review the Forum Rules.