Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God [Archive] - Page 3

Altima

2009-02-17, 05:14 PM

In any case, Daemons of Chaos go! 1500 Points.

Keeper of Secrets - 230 Points
- {Aura of Acquiescence}
- Instrument of Chaos
- Transfixing Gaze
- Unholy Might

KoS requires Musk (hit and run). The other three upgrades, you could really do without, but Unholy Might is the best of those three.

Flamers of Tzeentch x5 - 175 Points
- {Breath of Chaos, Warpfire}

Flamers of Tzeentch x5 - 175 Points
- {Breath of Chaos, Warpfire}

These will be butchered. Very, very quickly. I recommend you scale them back to three each, and use them with your icons to drop down as suicide squads. Fry high valued targets or masses hiding in cover.

Bloodletters of Khorne x10 - 160 Points
- {Hellblades}
- Chaos Icon

Daemonettes of Slaanesh x10 - 170 Points
- {Aura of Acquiescence, Rending Claws}
- Chaos Icon
- Instrument of Chaos

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch x10 - 185 Points
- {Warpfire}
- Bolt of Tzeentch
- The Changeling

The general consensus are that pink horrors are overpriced. Also, the 'sweet spot' for daemonettes is about 12 models.

Flesh Hounds of Khorne x5 - 75 Points
- {Blessing of the Blood God}

Five really won't do much. The general purpose of flesh hounds is to tie down mobile elements so your slower moving assault troops (bloodletters) can smack into them.

Seekers of Slaanesh x5 - 85 Points
- {Aura of Acquiescence, Rending Claws}

Seekers of Slaanesh x5 - 85 Points
- {Aura of Acquiescence, Rending Claws}

Seekers are good if you're going against troops in cover. Otherwise, fiends are better with more strength, higher toughness, etc. The Seekers' low S will be a burden and rending is too unwieldy.

Soul Grinder - 135 Points
Phlegm!

I'm tempted to drop the KoS for 2 Heralds and a Daemon Prince.
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (rolls with the Flamers), plus upgrades
Herald of Slaanesh on Chariot (rolls with Seekers), plus upgrades
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, plus upgrades.

I have no Nurgle, sure they're tough, and they can hold objectives nicely. But, Slow & Purposeful gimps them pretty bad.

Heralds on Chariots lose their IC status, so can no longer ride with the seekers.

For your extra HQ slot, I recommend two Heralds of Tzeentch on Chariots with Master of Sorcery and Bolt. Possibly another upgrade, like gaze or breath, if you want.

Also, you may wish to boost up your troop numbers. You don't really need icons on ALL your troops.

Lastly, if you're considering a daemon prince just for combat, consider a Herald of Khorne on a Chariot. Pretty much the exact stats for cheaper, free iron hide, etc.

Illiterate Scribe

2009-02-19, 06:59 AM

Oh wow, GW just leaked the new Imperial Guard statsheet on their french website, and took it down pretty quickly. Not quickly enough, though. Guard look to be freakin' awesome now.

Heavy 20 confirmed.

AP3 hellguns confirmed.

Special characters - Captain Al'rahem (Tallarn dude), Colonel Straken (Catachan nasty, formerly had devils as troop choices), Chenkov (Valhallan dude, can't remember anything more about him), Yarrick, Jarran Kell + Ursarkar Creed, Lukas Bastonne (looks like a special issue storm trooper sergeant), Moghol Kamir (Attilan rough rider with powerfist), Nork Deddog, Artillery Sergeant Harker (again, seems new, but I'm guessing he'll be lending his BS 4 and some special rules to any artillery).

If noone else has got it, I'd be willing to post up more info, but I won't upload it to any popular filesharing sites, so don't bother me about that, because that would be wrong. :smallcool:

SolkaTruesilver

2009-02-19, 07:07 AM

Wrong? THAT WOULD BE HERESY!!

...

(can you give us a little more info..? AP3 Hellgun?! My god, Stormtroopers will be just awesome with that. Anything regarding "special rules" like ignoring other unit's cover value for firing trough troop regiments, etc...? What do you mean, "Heavy 20"? If you want to make Z-Axis a happy man, please try to remember anything regarding Hellhounds...)

Illiterate Scribe

2009-02-19, 07:46 AM

Hellguns are 18" range, S3, AP3, rapid fire. Hell pistols are 6" range, S3, AP3, pistol.

I haven't got any of the special rules (although the platoon drill rule seems to be fairly well-established rumour).

Heavy 20 was the Leman Russ Punisher's Heavy 20, S5, AP - main gun. I reckon it's over-rated, but it was driving the internets wild.

Anyway - inferno cannon looks to be largely unchanged, although I think it's been confirmed elsewhere to be 12", everyone under the template gets hit.

Basilisks are no longer an effective main battle tank, since they've now got a 36" minimum range, although there's a new 'howitzer' to take its place with a rather nifty large blast battle cannon. I don't know what that's mounted on - but it should be pretty nasty.

'Armour plated sentinels' with front armour value 12, pretty nice, pretty nice.

Meltacannons, wtf? Template weapons which have AP3, 2+ to wound. Hunter killer missiles have been replaced, it seems, by one use 'hellfury' rockets with S4, AP5, large blast. In fact, that's the one thing that leaps out at me about the new list - everything and its mother seem to be capable of pumping out large blast templates.

Also:

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1447/picture8pi7.png

SolkaTruesilver

2009-02-19, 07:59 AM

Meltacannons, wtf? Template weapons which have AP3, 2+ to wound. Hunter killer missiles have been replaced, it seems, by one use 'hellfury' rockets with S4, AP5, large blast. In fact, that's the one thing that leaps out at me about the new list - everything and its mother seem to be capable of pumping out large blast templates.

Isn't that the good old Imperial Guard's mindset? :smallbiggrin:

Hum.. that Deathstrike.. it's an ability to use? So.. it's a barrage of 1d3+3 explosions.. (maye large template?) any idea of the strenght/AP value?

Yipee!!!

Bryn

2009-02-19, 08:00 AM

Edit: simu-post by Illiterate Scribe.

Hey, rumours confirmed? Awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Kinda odd that the Leman Russ Punisher can get a greater rate of fire than the Vulcan Mega-Bolter, but I guess it makes sense as sacrificing power of rounds for rate of fire. Assuming the stats posted on Warseer are correct, it's just the same as a single squad rapidfiring high-strength lasguns. Probably not as good as the normal Russ with 5e blast markers...

Inferno cannons have the same stats, and hopefully the same special rules that made them so good before. 12" would be a shame.

The new Guard codex looks great: they seem to have added loads of stuff, removed very little, and if it's as thick as the Space Marine book we'll be getting lots of fluff as well. Plus, a plastic valkyrie; perfect to get those new AP3 hellguns into position :smallbiggrin:

Although GW seem to be keeping up their fine tradition of silly names. 'Banewolf'? WTF? According to Warseer it's some sort of fast vehicle with a poison cannon.

And finally... It's good to see the rumour that Leman Russes will be able to fire all their weapons if they move slowly.

Illiterate Scribe

2009-02-19, 08:10 AM

Isn't that the good old Imperial Guard's mindset? :smallbiggrin:

Hum.. that Deathstrike.. it's an ability to use? So.. it's a barrage of 1d3+3 explosions.. (maye large template?) any idea of the strenght/AP value?

Yipee!!!

'Ps' is inches - you're looking at, on average, a 5" blast radius. S10 AP1.

SolkaTruesilver

2009-02-19, 08:18 AM

Wait a minute..

...

POUCES?!?!?!?!

For freaking hell. a 12-inches diameter circle of S10 AP1 is.. is..

oh my god..

Well, 55 points seems appropriate for such a 1-shot weapon... :smalleek:

edit: silly me. I found a copy on the Warseer forum, and "55" is the reference page.. hehe...

Winterwind

2009-02-19, 09:16 AM

A rules question - do Rending attacks (that's what the ability to automatically wound while ignoring armour if the to wound roll is a 6 is called in English, right?) allow Invulnerable saves?

Illiterate Scribe

2009-02-19, 09:19 AM

No, they don't ignore armour.

Also, I mucked up - that' probably diameter, not radius.

Winterwind

2009-02-19, 09:30 AM

No, they don't ignore armour.Umm... my rule book claims otherwise. :smallconfused:
Translated, it says roughly "If a model with such a weapon rolls a 6 for one of its To Wound rolls in close-combat, the opponent suffers a Wound automatically and independantly of its Toughness score. This Wound is treated as if inflicted by a powerweapon. Against vehicles you may roll a further D3 for each 6 rolled for the armour penetration roll. This roll is added to the total result."
So, no, I'm not asking whether they ignore armour or not, because I know they do - what I want to know is whether they ignore Invulnerable rolls as well, as that part with suffering wounds automatically could be interpreted so.

Bryn

2009-02-19, 10:30 AM

As far as I'm aware, you get invulnerable saves (and cover saves, if it's a ranged weapon) as normal from rending.

I'm going to get that Officer of the Fleet, just as an Imperial officer as much as anything! He can go alongside the FW Titan Crew on Foot, the Inquisitorial henchmen, and all the minis from the tank accessory sprues.

The new Astropath and Primaris Psyker also look good.

Illiterate Scribe

2009-02-19, 10:33 AM

Whoops, I'm on a roll with mistypes :smallredface:. No, what I meant to say was that you do get to roll an invulnerable save against them. As far as I know, the only things capable of ignoring them are C'tan, C'tan phase weapons, Warpscythes, psycannon bolts, apocalypse-level vortex grenades and the like. There were a couple more in the old Chaos Codex, but it's a fairly rare ability.

Winterwind

2009-02-19, 10:41 AM

Ah, okay. Thanks, both of you. :smallsmile:

Oslecamo

2009-02-19, 11:58 AM

Ash08

2009-02-20, 01:10 AM

So I had an eventful day, I went with a friend to Games Workshop for a couple of games. The first one was of mild interest and so doesn't deserve much detail, it mainly invoved, Daemons Princes and Vangaurd Veterans locked in mortal combat(Daemon prince lost) and alot of blown up Chaos Marine Rinhos (3 to be exact). However the secound battle, will probably contend with only one or two others for the most memerable batlle I've had this year. It was a 3000 point team battle, me and some Dark Eldar against alot of Khorne Daemons. The guys I was playing were both at least 20-30 years older than me, and everybody in the store had seemed too afraid of their playing skills to challange them. Of course, I'm always ready for an adventure(winning or losing doesn't matter much, its the fun and the "learning experence" that interest me) and so it begun.
I got 2000 points to work with so I took a Chapter master and a full HQ squad(an apocothary, sarg, banner carrier, company champion, melta-bearer), 2 tactical squads, 1 all bolter Devastator squad, a Dreadnought with twin-linked Lascannons and a DCCW/ Hv. flamer, and a normal Landraider. The dark elder player took 3 sqauds of what appeared to be basic infantry, a unit of Wyches, and some guys with skull helmets. We deployed in some ruins and bunkers to give us a secure firing base. I deplyed my Hq with Chapter master, the Dreadnought and 1.5 of my tactical squads on our right, with the rest on the right to support the Dark Eldar. Our opponent took 3 Soul Grinders, 1 Skull Crusher, a Herald of Khorne, , 4 units of bloodletters, 1 unit of cavalry things, and 3 units of boar/damon/dogs. He kept half in reserve, and deepstriked with the Cavalry, 2 Soul Grinders, and the dog things right infront of our gun line, I think he was about 15-20 inches away.
He got the first turn which he used to spread his guys out and into cover since he couldn't assualt. His Soul Grinders made 4 attempts to destroy the Land Raider, and he ended up amobilisng it. On my turn I shot quite alot at the dog things and killed about a quarter of them and wrecked one of the two Soul Grinders. My Chapter master's Orbital Bombardment hit right on target on the Daemon Cavalry things, but only killed 1 out of I think 6 or 7.
Next on the Daemon turn he luckly failed all of his reserve rolls. He brought up his hounds and threw them all at my Hq squad and Chapter Master. We killed ALL of them in a single assualt phase(the best luck I had, from there, it was all down hill) I had had to take over 20 saves, but only 2 out of five of my marines had died, my Sergent and the Company Champion :smallfrown: but still pretty good for killing all of those Daemon dog things. A unit of Dark Eldar slaughtered the other unit of dogs, and things were looking up, until turn 3.
Turn three heralded the arrivle of 3 of the units of BloodLetters, his Herald, another Soul Grinder and the Skull Crusher. 2 of the Blood letters and the Skull Crusher deployed on my side and the other one cornered another unit of Dark Eldar. The Soul Grinder deployed in the center with the other surviving one. During his assualt phase he destroyed with his Cavalry a unit of the Dark Eldar basic infantry. On our turn the Dark Eldar Witches arrived. The Witches were placed to counter the calvalry, and the skull helmets in support of me. My shooting and rolling now trully became apalling, the only good thin I acheived was to kill all but 2 of the Calvary and weaken the Bloodletters. I was continously rolling 1s and 2s, my luck couldn't have been worse. The assault phase saw my Chapter Master and his Hq squad charging into combat against his bloodletters and my Dreadnought being herioc and charging to my ally's advice the Skull Crusher. The Chapter Master's Assualt was horrible(how could I possibly roll 5 ones?) but somehow I managed to scrap a victory without a single casuality, the Bloodletters took 5. The Dreadnought, faired, meh, he faild to score a single wound and lost his DCCW. The Wytchs charged the Khorne calvary and wiped them out, and the cornered unit of elder launched a suicide charge and was wiped out, but not without bring down 4 or 5 Bloodletters.
On turn 4, things got worse and worse, he charged continusly. He managed to Wreck my Dreadnought, and blow up my Land Raider. To make matters worse, me and my ally's shooting was worse than worthless, our opponent never failed a save. My chapter master finished of his bloodletters, minus another Marine and went over and assaulted the Skull Crusher. Big mistake , he was down 2 out of 3 wounds and both his Marine friends were dead.
Turn five was mopping up, the bunker was cracked and it insides and the ruins were purged by bloodletters and a Herald, the Skull Crusher "skull crushed" my Captain, and so the game ended... scary and very, very memroable.

evil_d4_swarm

2009-02-21, 11:18 PM

Hello, I think I just had a great idea for an apocolipse army:

You know how the tau can't be possessed by daemons or become warp portals? Tzench must know all about that, so he could approach the tau under the guise of an alliance, but begin manipulating the tau to his own ends once his forces are indoctrinated into the "greater good."

If one were to field an apocalypse army with tau and Tzench daemons and marines allied together, would you accept that as a reasonable alliance, given the circumstances described above?

Erloas

2009-02-22, 10:31 AM

I don't think the Tau are that nieve, to believe that chaos wants to become part of the Greater Good. Especially since I think a good portion of the Greater Good is specifically anti-chaos.

I could however see Tzeentch taking a group (even up to chapter size group, not just 1-2 units, but potentially a very large number of them) of his most normal looking marines and having them join the greater good as a sort of sleeper cell/hidden reserves. Make the Tau believe they are normal space marines that no longer believe in the Imperium.
I could only really see that working in a large scale encounter depending who they are fighting.

If Tzeentch just used his infiltrated group as a sort of beacon to keep track of what they tau were up to, then durning some large battle he might send in a bunch of his deamons. That would be most likely only if the Tau were facing mostly SMs and IG. Of course in that situation the Tau would believe the deamons to be their enemy as well and think of them as a third side to the battle rather then being allies.
I think that could make for an interesting battle, but one that would be hard to make fair, since its hard to decide how big the deamon's side should be and how to balance out their points considering that they will be fighting both sides to some extent even though the deamons are primarily focusing on killing the Imperium troops.

onasuma

2009-02-22, 01:11 PM

Actually, it has been suggested in the daemon hunter codex, that tau will follow an etheral into a chaos ideology, just believing it to be a new way to continue the greater good.

Bryn

2009-02-22, 01:56 PM

With Ethereals, they don't have much choice :smallamused:

evil_d4_swarm

2009-02-22, 02:00 PM

The ethereals controlling the tau for Tzench's "greater good" is what I had in mind.

onasuma

2009-02-22, 02:28 PM

grinner666

2009-02-22, 06:44 PM

So, Im starting a Dark Eldar army in a little over two weeks, that being when free warhammer day comes around again (read: my birthday), and was wondering if anyone had any thorghts.

The plan I have is (roughly) as below:

Archon, combat drugs, veil of shadows and some form of large hitting stick.
+
5 body guard with 3+ saves (the name escapes me)
+
Raider (well, I have a raider, not sure to stick the lord, the wyches or some warriors in it)

Lelith Hesperax
+
10 wyches (9 if in raider)
+
(maybe) raider

18 warriors probably with lances where possible

18 more warriors with destructors

5 jetbikes (dont really like em, but they're in the battleforce)

a single ravanger

I may well break down the warrior squads into 3 squads of 12 for objective capturing or maybe one of 10 and two of 13 so one can sit on a raider and cap objectives. Anyhow, I dont know the army list very well, so Ill have to see how it goes.

Thorghts? Suggestions?

(also, are wychs actually any good. Ive only got them for fluff reasons really)

Wyches are scary in the assault, but they aren't all that good with ranged combat . . . not enough heavy weapons. You want to put them in a Raider. Probably the same thing goes for your Archon and his Incubi . . . they are a pretty awesome assault force.

You probably want more than three Warrior or Raider squads, as those are your only choices for grabbing and holding objectives. But if all you've got or want is 36 DE warriors, definitely go with the three squads. This will give you the additional advantage of being able to field six heavy weapons and six assault weapons between the three squads.

OR go with four nine-man squads; if they're Warrior squads it'll give you the option of fielding eight heavy and eight assault weapons, or you can put one or two of them in Raiders; that'll halve your special weapons (Raider squads only get one of each), but the Raider does have a Dark Lance, and a Raider squad armed with splinter pistols and hand weapons can be very effective but requires speed . . . their armor sucks. :smallwink:

Personally I tend to prefer the Splinter Cannon for a squad's heavy weapons, and Blasters to handle vehicles . . . that way you can keep moving and firing. But if you prefer Dark Lances, go for it.

BTW the Destructor is a Haemonculi-only weapon. Warrior squads can't take them.

I don't know why you don't like the DE Jetbikes; I've got about a dozen in my army. Fast, tough, fairly heavily armored troops with combat drugs? What's not to love?

Frankly I loathe the Ravager; I won't have one in my army. Maybe it's just me, but I think an army's SINGLE heavy gun platform should have at least as much armor as the Imperial Guard's TRANSPORT.

I strongly prefer the Talos or Scourge squads for heavy support . . . preferably both. :smallbiggrin:

Illiterate Scribe

2009-02-22, 07:10 PM

Frankly I loathe the Ravager; I won't have one in my army. Maybe it's just me, but I think an army's SINGLE heavy gun platform should have at least as much armor as the Imperial Guard's TRANSPORT.

I strongly prefer the Talos or Scourge squads for heavy support . . . preferably both. :smallbiggrin:

You're missing out on an opporunity to take an unholy number of disintegrators/dark lances then. Talos are nice, but scourges are severely over costed.

Also, while we're critiquing lists:

Sup dawg, we heard you like bloodcrushers, so we put some bloodcrushers with yo bloodcrushers so you can crush blood while you crush blood.

a) Blue Scribes 130

b) 7 Bloodcrushers, instrument of chaos 285

c) 7 Bloodcrushers 280

d) 7 Bloodcrushers 280

e) 13 Horrors of Tzeentch, the Changeling, bolt of Tzeentch 219

f) 13 Horrors of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch 231

g) 13 Horrors of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch 231

h) Herald of Tzeentch, chariot of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch, master of sorcery, we are legion 110

i) Herald of Tzeentch, chariot of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch, master of sorcery, we are legion 110

j) Herald of Tzeentch, chariot of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch, master of sorcery, we are legion 110

For 1998 points.

Dropping a), b), c), d), e) in the first wave, and f), g), h), i), j) in the second, ideally, and using bloodcrushers to steamroll into enemy infantry, MCs, and light tanks, use the horrors to claim objectives, and maybe zap some tanks with the heralds.

So, thoughts? I'm scratchbuilding the lot of 'em, and may even be able to get pics up :smalleek:, but I'd like some advice as to composition. It's a bit all or nothing, but 8 bolts of Tzeentch should be able to unleash some hurt on tanks, and the bloodcrushers are just obnoxious. Thoughts?

grinner666

2009-02-22, 08:41 PM

You're missing out on an opporunity to take an unholy number of disintegrators/dark lances then. Talos are nice, but scourges are severely over costed.

Actually Scourges are on par, cost-wise, with other multiple-heavy-weapon squads like Devastators and Dark Reapers. In fact their base cost is far lower than a Dark Reaper's, and only becomes equivalent for the four models with heavy weapons . . . which means a Scourge squad can have a heck of a lot of meat-shields if the player wishes. And they can make good use of cover, something vehicles have trouble doing.

And as to "unholy number of disintegrators/dark lances" . . . hellOOOOooo . . . Scourges!! Scourges with four Dark Lances in a squad!! Scourges with meat-shields, which means they're not going to burst into flames the first time somebody with a Meltagun farts in their general direction . . . or a (squad of) Tau with (a squad of) pulse rifles gets lucky.

:smalltongue:

Illiterate Scribe

2009-02-22, 08:46 PM

Actually Scourges are on par, cost-wise, with other multiple-heavy-weapon squads like Devastators and Dark Reapers. In fact their base cost is far lower than a Dark Reaper's, and only becomes equivalent for the four models with heavy weapons . . . which means a Scourge squad can have a heck of a lot of meat-shields if the player wishes. And they can make good use of cover, something vehicles have trouble doing.

And as to "unholy number of disintegrators/dark lances" . . . hellOOOOooo . . . Scourges!! Scourges with four Dark Lances in a squad!! Scourges with meat-shields, which means they're not going to burst into flames the first time somebody with a Meltagun farts in their general direction . . . or a (squad of) Tau with (a squad of) pulse rifles gets lucky.

:smalltongue:

But what about 'dem blasts, Grinner?

What about 'dem blasts?

grinner666

2009-02-22, 08:54 PM

But what about 'dem blasts, Grinner?

What about 'dem blasts?

Who cares, when you're likely to lose your "blasts" as soon as the model appears on the board?

Or did you think the opponent would just sit there and let the damned Ravager kick the snot out of his infantry? Again: the damned thing's too damned fragile. Anti-infantry weapons like plasma guns/cannon and heavy bolters can take it out. Sorry, I can find much better ways to spend 105 to 120 points.

Enh, maybe in a low-points game where you don't want to spend 250 points on a Scourges squad . . .

onasuma

2009-02-23, 02:03 AM

Well, IMO, dark eldar bikes, while very useful, have some of the worst models in the game, I may well convert some later on.

Next, on the subject of ravagers, the model is too freakin cool not to use. Its a jagged flying ship with lances all over it! Its tactical usefulness may be fleeting, but turn one can accomplish alot. I considered Scourges, but desided against them, at least for now. When I do take them, I plan for 4 splinter cannons for some real anti infantry fire power put in a 10 man squad.

Moving on, scribe. Where the heck are all your icons? I always find myself needing one or two, if not an entire armies worth. Deep striking a squad of bloodletters down only to scatter into a tree is really annoying.

Next up, drop a single chariot and instead add a khorne herald on a jugganought. First off, the model is sweet, secondly, it'll add a huge boost to one of the squad and finally there is no way in hell you can justify using that many bloodcrushers in a freakin tzeentch army. Ever.

MorhgorRB

2009-02-23, 08:53 AM

Moving on, scribe. Where the heck are all your icons? I always find myself needing one or two, if not an entire armies worth. Deep striking a squad of bloodletters down only to scatter into a tree is really annoying.

At least the new chart means you have a chance at the entire squad surviving that one tree...

(I mean, what do those trees think they are? Horus?)

grinner666

2009-02-23, 10:43 AM

Well, IMO, dark eldar bikes, while very useful, have some of the worst models in the game, I may well convert some later on.

Next, on the subject of ravagers, the model is too freakin cool not to use. Its a jagged flying ship with lances all over it! Its tactical usefulness may be fleeting, but turn one can accomplish alot. I considered Scourges, but desided against them, at least for now. When I do take them, I plan for 4 splinter cannons for some real anti infantry fire power put in a 10 man squad.

Hmmm. I disagree about the DE jetbikes, but to each his own.

Far as the Ravager goes . . . if what you're looking for is a cool model, may I suggest you dump your Archon and take Asdrubael Vect instead? Now that model is UBER-cool. And one heck of a lot more survivable.

And yeah, Ravagers with splinter cannons will pretty much shred any lightly-armored infantry squad into ground meat . . . only thing is it kinda turns them into more of a Fast Attack choice than Heavy Support. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you . . . just something to keep in mind.

:smallbiggrin:

onasuma

2009-02-23, 05:22 PM

Ok, DE jetbikes are now cool, saw the sprue closer, its better than I thorght.

Next question: Dark eldar warriors, sit on objectives and shoot, sit in cover and shoot or get into combat.

grinner666

2009-02-23, 08:17 PM

Ok, DE jetbikes are now cool, saw the sprue closer, its better than I thorght.

Next question: Dark eldar warriors, sit on objectives and shoot, sit in cover and shoot or get into combat.

Tol'ja. :smalltongue:

Well, Warrior and Raider squads kinda hafta sit on the objectives because they're the only units you have that can hold objectives. And with their Imperial Guard-like (i.e. crap) armor saves it's far better for them if that objective is in cover.

That said, if there's no cover to hide behind at the objective, it's far better to get a crappy 5+ armor save than no armor save at all . . . so against anything like Space Marines or Tau, anything with AP5 or better firearms, get 'em into the assault. If you've got them armed with pistols & hand weapons, of course, get 'em into the assault regardless. In fact with their Initiative score, it's hard to argue against having them charge ASAP . . . except maybe against Tyranids.

Also: arm your Sybarites with Agonisers. Trust me on that one. :smallbiggrin:

Tren

2009-02-23, 09:02 PM

Archon, combat drugs, veil of shadows and some form of large hitting stick.
+
5 body guard with 3+ saves (the name escapes me)

Lelith Hesperax

With Lelith in your force, your list isn't legal as is. If you're fielding Lelith she counts as an Archite, which means you can't field an Archon (though I'm pretty sure you can still take a Dracon). It also means Wyches become your only troop and warriors and raider squads become elites, so your list doesn't meet the 2 troop minimum. So if you want to include Lelith you'll have to rethink your list, or consider dropping her for a Dracite, Dracon, or a couple Haemonculi.

As for Wyches, they are a really impressive combat unit. They're fantastic at making your opponent suck in CC, though the basic wyches alone kind of lack killing power being S3 with 1 attack base and no power weapons. But I find giving the Succubus an agonizer and including some CC character like an Archon makes them an unbelievable killing machine.

Edit: Take that back no regular Lords of either stripe, and additionally no Talos, Haemonculi, or Grots.

grinner666

2009-02-24, 12:00 AM

Edit: Take that back no regular Lords of either stripe, and additionally no Talos, Haemonculi, or Grots.

Only rule I see about Archons/Dracons is no Archons in a Wyche army. But I may be mistaken; I've had to gather all my Dark Eldar addenda off non-GW websites.

Enh, I wouldn't field a Wyche army anyway. I like Grotesques and Haemonculi too much.

In fact I've been considering . . . not sure yet, but I'm giving it some thought . . . transforming my DE army into a Haemonculus army. Urien Rakarth plus three Haemonculi for HQ, three squads of Grotesques in Raiders for elites, at least two Talos for heavy support . . .

Hmmmmmm . . . what can we do to create a fast attack option that isn't part of the Wyche cult?

onasuma

2009-02-24, 02:38 AM

On lelith, yeah I noticed that later on. Ive dropped her for a dracite (still using the same model though, its awesome)

Vulion

2009-02-24, 12:34 PM

As a player that wants to use the Eldar, what would you guys and gals suggest as a more generalist unit, Guardians or Dire Avengers?

Eldan

2009-02-24, 12:46 PM

Well, I consider Guardians mostly useless for almost everything, so I'm biased. Also, should Eldar really ever field generalists?
Anyway, take some Dire avengers and then either gear them for defensive close combat or offensive ranged combat.

Bryn

2009-02-24, 12:51 PM

And with their Imperial Guard-like (i.e. crap) armor saves it's far better for them if that objective is in cover.
Citizen, you should realise that the Imperial Guard's armour is FAR superior to the disgusting mockeries created by xenos! It is, in short, the greatest armour in the galaxy.

Soldiers! Take this man and flog him for defeatist heretic nonsense. :smallannoyed:

:smalltongue:

Oracle_Hunter

2009-02-24, 01:00 PM

As a player that wants to use the Eldar, what would you guys and gals suggest as a more generalist unit, Guardians or Dire Avengers?

Guardians.

They can do close defense (Shuriken Catapults), anti-light infantry (Shuriken Cannon / Scatter Laser), anti-heavy infantry (Star Cannon), anti-tank (ELM, Brightlance).

And they're cheaper.

I, personally, distrust Dire Avengers, but they do appear to have some role. But in a question about "generalist units," Guardians are the only answer.

Erloas

2009-02-24, 01:49 PM

Also, should Eldar really ever field generalists?

I've been running general lists pretty much all the time and I've had success with them. Its also a good idea to have some general lists available and practice in using them if you end up in a situation where you don't know what you will be facing. Such as a tournament or a challenge from someone that has a few different armies they can field, or simply so you don't have to have 20 different army lists with you all the time to be ready for any size and type of army you might face in casual gaming.

As for which to field... like everything else, it depends entirely on how you want to use them and what else you have in your list. Since they are both troop choices are relatively cheap I would probably end up using both in most games.

I wouldn't use guardians as a group of 9 people standing around watching one use a heavy weapon. I tried that in a few games and they are too expensive to justify the cost for just a few heavy weapon shots.

The last games I've been fielding them with a shuriken cannon and using them rather aggressively and its worked well so far. They are cheap enough that way that its not a big deal if they die but they are bothersome enough to force my opponent to deal with them.
Dire avengers can also be used that way, but they aren't really cheap enough to let them get killed. Its a given that units will die, its just a matter trying to make sure you control to some extent which ones are killed.

Considering that I use avengers and guardians for different purposes and in different ways I don't really see it as a one or the other sort of choice.

Psychotic

2009-02-24, 01:59 PM

I find that Guardians are more of a "general" unit, but suffer from the fact that they are (as Eldan put it) useless at doing anything. Their mediocre ballistic skill means that bright lances, star cannons, and EML's become half as effective. The Scatter Laser is the most viable choice simply because you will statistically be landing two shots per round. The only role that I would ever suggest using Guardians in is to get a big squad of them, sit down on an objective with a scatter laser (or shuri-cannon if you need to skimp on points), Warlock w/ Embolden and never, ever, plan on leaving that objective.

Dire Avengers, on the other hand, are very effective against most infantry. Bladestorm will put a hurting into MEQ's and just annihilate GEQ's. If you want to *take* an opponent's objective, these are the troops you want to be using.

Zincorium

2009-02-24, 02:17 PM

Hey all. I suppose I'm technically a non-player at this point, but after playing Dawn of War and liking the theme, playing the Dark Heresy RPG, and getting the core rulebook for 5th edition, I'm kind of obligated at this point to at least try out a real table top game.

But, before I go running out and get crazy, I'd appreciate some advice (note 'before' rather than 'instead of').

The primary question in my mind is which codex to get. Aesthetically, and seeing as I'm a beginner, Chaos seems to be a good choice for me, but there are several versions on Amazon and it's unclear what to look for.

Secondly, as far as the HQ-Elites-Troops business, I haven't seen anything about that in the core rulebook, so the fact that everyone talks about it as though it's the prime consideration when building an army is rather puzzling. What exactly constitutes a properly allocated list?

Lastly, while it'll probably be another year before I'm back home for good and have space for all my stuff, I'm wondering how easy it generally is to get into circle of people who play. Miniature gaming has a much higher price of entry than paper and pencil RPGs, so I'm reluctant to use the same methods (conscription, witch hunts, outright slavery). Any advice on that front?

*Edit for clarity*
I'd pretty much decided on faction, but which revision/edition/variant of the codex is the most useful and/or widely used is escaping me at the moment. There are several on Amazon with different covers. I'll probably just get the one on Games workshop's site.

onasuma

2009-02-24, 02:22 PM

Begining the game? Look at some models. Say "wow that looks cool" at least once. Collect that army. There is no "beginner" force in 40k (well... Space marines...) each has entry level, that everyone can play at, and higher level once you get the hang of the list.

Each army must have 2 troop choices and 1 hq choice. These are outlined in codex's. In addition they may have +1 HQ, +4 troops, +3 eliets, +3 heavy support and +3 fast attack choice.

Finally, If there is a gamesworkshop anywhere, you can always find a game.

Erloas

2009-02-24, 03:36 PM

Their mediocre ballistic skill means that bright lances, star cannons, and EML's become half as effective. The Scatter Laser is the most viable choice simply because you will statistically be landing two shots per round.
One thing to consider though is that the ONLY way for Eldar to get any of those heavy weapons with a BS4 is by giving them to a wraithlord. All other options to take them, Vypers, War Walkers, Wave Serpents, Falcons, (and jetbikes for shuriken cannons) are all BS3 as well. Vypers and War Walkers are the cheapest way to get the weapons, but they all have their uses. Yes, Wave Serpents have the weapons twin linked, but the weapons also cost more to take because of that.
In that regard the weapons are just as good in the hands of guardians as they are any other way you can get them.

While the guardians aren't as good as dire avengers in small-arms fire, they are either better then what other armies can field or a fair amount cheaper. With too many variables to take into consideration, its clear that for their point cost they are where they need to be in terms of power compared to other armies.
While not a threat to some vehicles, there are a lot of vehicles that can be taken down by a unit of guardians with a scatter laser or shuriken cannon, and those are targets dire avengers really can't do much to. They aren't going to be doing it head on (except maybe AV10 transports or walkers) but if you keep them low key they will be ignored in favor of higher priority targets for the most part until they get to where they need to be to take out vehicles on their flanks and rear.
I wouldn't give them a brightlance or EML and expect them to reliably take out enemy vehicles, if you do you will probably be disappointed with their performance. However if you use them as an attention magnet to draw fire or keep them low key knowing many opponents will not fear them, then they can be put to good use. A lot of what they bring to a battle isn't as obvious, its not necessarily killing something directly but in how they can be used to shape a battlefield.

In contrast the Dire Avengers use is much more straight forward and easier to see. Point them at medium and light infantry and watch them go away.

In general I would say unless you are going for a jetbike heavy army where you are already using most of your troop choices, I would generally try to fit some guardians in and find a use for them.

@Zincorium: There are only 2 choices for chaos, the normal Chaos Space Marines and the new Deamons. I wouldn't think there would be too many places selling older edition codex new, though you might find some used from some places like ebay. If you order from any gaming shop (such as TheWarStore) they will give you the newest one.

As for unit choice, as Onasuma said, you are required to have 1 HQ and 2 troop choices in any list you field. You can have a total of 2HQ, 6 troops, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Elite, and 3 Heavy Support, in any list in any combination you choose so long as you have the aforementioned minimum.

Winterwind

2009-02-24, 03:52 PM

The primary question in my mind is which codex to get. Aesthetically, and seeing as I'm a beginner, Chaos seems to be a good choice for me, but there are several versions on Amazon and it's unclear what to look for.Yessss, join usssss... together, we shall bring the False Emperor down and rule the Galaxy! Blood for the Blood God, skulls for the Skull Throne!

Ahem. Anyway...

This here (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/common/xLargeProductImage.jsp?mWidth=873px&mURL=/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1240065_60030102004_CSMCodexmain_873x627.jpg&mAlt=Codex%3A+Chaos+Space+Marines&mHeight=627px) is the current Chaos Space Marine codex. This (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/common/xLargeProductImage.jsp?mWidth=873px&mURL=/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1440060_60030115001_CodexChaosDaemonsMain_873x627 .jpg&mAlt=Codex%3A+Chaos+Daemons&mHeight=627px) would be the one of Chaos Daemons.
As for what a good starting army would be, I'd really go with whatever you think looks cool and has cool fluff. :smallwink:

Secondly, as far as the HQ-Elites-Troops business, I haven't seen anything about that in the core rulebook, so the fact that everyone talks about it as though it's the prime consideration when building an army is rather puzzling. What exactly constitutes a properly allocated list?In addition to what onasuma and Erloas mentioned, only Troop-type choices can hold mission objectives, which feature in two thirds of the normal mission types, so having at least a couple of those is generally a good idea.

Fuzzy_Juan

2009-02-24, 10:52 PM

So I got a question for ya'll...dealing with chaos daemons. I have the challenge of crafting a list to deal with daemonic incursions. The violator in question favors the flamers of Tzeench, a few blood letters, a bloodthirster, a lord of change...and doe shave enough demons to change other things up...maybe some daemon princes, maybe a soulgrinder, maybe even more troops...ya never know.

The list I am creating is for Nids so I was wondering if there was any conventional wisdom for dealing with these guys. I am guessing the lack of charge after the DS means that i will nearly always have the option of assaulting them first, and if they are even semi close any shooting i have will be able to concentrate on half their army from the start and move on to the rest as they appear.

Genestealers seem the troop of choice for dealing with any masses of daemons...but the MC's worry me. I am thinking that a broodlord and Hive tyrant with implant attack will be ideal for dealing with the big demons, though for the rest should i meet MC with MC in cc or dakka fexs? If they are rolling 6-7 saves at a time i am thinking those 3 and 4+ invulns won't last too long. Or should I go for deathspitters on a group of 5-7 warriors? Then again...sometimes it seems like just loading up on stealers will do the job and having some Barbed strangler armed fex's to provide some boom for that first turn on the ground. Nothing i can do about the flamer guys though...just have to hope for the best.

Any tips for avoiding the power attacks or goign toe to to with other MC's? lacking an invulnerable save it seems the carnifex's will be fairly squishy if they try and dance with a greater daemon...maybe take the +1 init park in cover and pray?...or should i try and rely on t7 and 5w to weather the storm?

Winterwind

2009-02-25, 08:21 AM

Hmmm... I don't know about the units available to Chaos Daemons, but at least the daemons available to Chaos Space Marines can, explicitly, assault after deepstriking...

Illiterate Scribe

2009-02-25, 09:33 AM

Fuzzy_Juan

2009-02-25, 10:20 PM

Ya, that warpfire can be harsh on anyone, good thing he goes for the flamers rather than the horrors, he could field even more of them that way.

It pains me to put the implant attack rather than the FT on the broodlord, but it seems like he may be the best bet at taking down his big daemons. I'm kinda torn between a flying tyrant and a walking tyrant...more mobility would probably be good...seems to me that extended carapace will be next to worthless though...anything that will likely be hitting the tyrant or a fex will be a MC or some other sort of power weapon or will similarly bypass armor...

Haven't decided to put any hormagaunts in though, not sure if i should...i mainly have a bunch of stealers. Maybe i'll upgrade one of the groups with toxin sacs and reduce their numbers a hair for a secondary group against MC's...

grinner666

2009-02-27, 10:48 PM

Going to a (small, only eight contestants so far) 40k tournament at the local games store in the morning. Here's my 1750-point army list (White Scars):

HQ:
Captain on bike w/ Power Weapon, Artificer Armor 165

Troops:
4-man Bike Squad + Attack Bike (plasma gun, meltagun) 205
-Sgt. has power weapon
-Attack Bike has multi-melta

10-Man Tac Squad (plasma gun, plasma cannon) 270
-Sgt. has plasma pistol + power fist
-Rhino w/H-K missile

10-man Tac Squad (meltagun, plasma cannon) 250
-Sgt. has power fist
-Rhino w/ H-K missile

7-man Scout squad w/sniper rifles, heavy bolter 132
-camo cloaks

Heavy Support:
Vindicator w/dozer blade 125

6-man Devastator Squad (lascannon, missile launcher x3) 261
-Razorback w/lascannon & twin-linked plasma guns

Fast Attack:
5-man Assault Squad (1 plasma pistol) 145
-Sgt has plasma pistol & power weapon

Landspeeder x1 (multi-melta, heavy bolter) 70

Elite
Dreadnought w/assault cannon, extra armor 130

Total: 1748

Wish me luck!! Oh, and any advice would be most welcome; though it'll probably be too late to change anything before I leave, I can always move things around for the tourney next month. But I DO have a Land Raider Crusader (w/multi-melta, 260 points) and a five-man, 230-point Terminator squad with either assault cannon or cyclone missile launcher I could replace something with . . . I just couldn't find a way to do it reasonably.

:smallbiggrin:

evil_d4_swarm

2009-02-27, 11:19 PM

I have been trying to create a good speed freeks list for my (possible) future ork army, and this is what I have so far. What do you guys think. Thanks in advance, as ever. :smallsmile:

HQ:
*Wazdakka Gutsmek 180
---Bike of the Aporkalypse
---Power Klaw
---Slugga
---Mek's Tools
---Stikkbombs
---Bosspole

*Warboss Boffet 60
---Warbike +40
---Power Klaw +25
---Twin-Linked Shoota +5
---Attack Squig +15

Elites:
*8 Lootas 120
---Deffguns

Troops:
*10 Nobs 200
---Sluggas
---Choppas
---Waaagh! Banner +15

*12 Warbikers 300
---Choppas
---Warbikes
---Sluggas
---Twin-Linked Dakkaguns

*12 Warbikers 300
---Choppas
---Warbikes
---Sluggas
---Twin-Linked Dakkaguns

*12 Ork Boys 120
---Choppas
---Sluggas
---1 Big Shoota +5
1 Trukk 35
---Wreckin' Ball +10

Fast Attack:
*1 Warbuggy 30
---Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcha +5

*1 Warbuggy 30
---Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcha +5

Total: 1500

Killersquid

2009-02-28, 12:26 AM

Get rid of the ball on the trukk, give it a paint job and a ram. Put more buggies into the squadrons so they get the effects of armour plates without the upgrade.

Ash08

2009-02-28, 12:43 AM

Fuzzy_Juan

2009-02-28, 10:54 AM

You seem to have enough big guns to handle high toughness creatures and most vehicles, only some AV 14 will cause you trouble if you have an unlucky roll or two, but one can never plan for that.

I like how they gave the 'combat squad' rule to marines. this way you can split off your special weapons and heavy weapons during non- kill point missions and have alot more flexibility in taking and holding objectives.

I don't think you have much to worry about either. seems like you have the strategy down, now all that is left is small squad tactics, and that can only be assessed per the terrain, the mission, and your enemy. Dawn of war vs. Chaos Daemons...probably not your (or anybody's friend).

So unless you draw the short straw, or just have terrible dice, hope to hear good things.

If you want to bring in the LRC, i'd drop the landspeeder, the assault marines and a rhino...you'd still have a transport and that multi melta and the LRC probably makes up for the lack of the assault squad by drawing alot of fire away from other elements and pounding the hell out of the enemy. Kinda like that one carnifex you leave exposed....sure it will die, but damned if it won't tie up their entire army in concentrated fire for a turn or two...provided you can take advantage of the situation, a fine trade. In a tourney i'm not sure if terminators may be the best choice unless they have storm shields. The number of people packing ap 2 weapons all over is high do to the popularity high armored nasties roaming around. Against certian enemies they would be better than most, but against imperium forces you'd likely see a list like yours with heavy plasma/melta that will rip them to shreads without the invuln save.

Erloas

2009-03-01, 11:30 AM

Well I got my 10th win in a row yesterday. Followed by my first loss and a tie.

The 10th win was against Sisters of Battle using my normal 2k list. It was against the same player I played before as Nurgle CSM and deamons. It was a fairly close fight for the first few rounds. We both had our luck jump from really good to really bad at random for the first few rounds. Not too much to say about it really, I forcably ejected him from some transports so I could wear him down. I don't think either of us had a vechile that didn't explode when it was taken out.

My first loss was against CSM. It was 1k against someone I hadn't played yet. I just used the 1k list I had made up from before, it wasn't a bad list, but it doesn't play how I found I want to play. Really the game came down to pretty much 2 thinks, I rolled poorly against his vehicles, and I was too defensive. I had asked if he had any template weapons, but the way he said it and how he says other things made me think he didn't have any. So I played most of my infantry together. His havok launchers on his rhinos tore up my dire avengers and my banshees. Since all of his troops were in transports I keep my banshees back to protect my avengers and reapers. However in doing so, even being in cover the havok launchers ate my guys up. What I really should have done is moved out of the cover and spread out and forced him to divide his fire more. Pretty much by the time his transports got into range I didn't have enough left to deal with his troops and the finished off what I had left. I had sort of forgot about the implecations of flight with his deamon princes and lost both of my war walkers to them rather early because they were up a bit close (how my walkers were equiped was one of my biggest problems with this list). Both of the princes died fairly quickly, but not before taking out the war walkers (which probably was quite a few points ahead for me actually, but the rhinos more then made up for that in his favor). What I needed to do was disable his rhinos and give my infantry a chance to wear him down, but I just rolled poorly against them and didn't manage to do anything at all to them the whole game (the only pens and glances I got were all 1-2s which he got to ignore by being possesed).

Overall it was a good game. It was pretty obvious what I did wrong though, which was going defensive and pretty much letting him dictate the battle.

The last game was a draw at 2k vs Tyranids. (I played this person with SM and Tyranids before). It was DoW and Capture and Control. I really dislike how DoW works, in every game I've seen it played it always really biases the fight towards one person or another. Lictors being able to assault from deepstrike and being able to deepstrike right ontop of my objective is a really bad combination. At least with other deepstrikers they can't show up in areas of difficult terrain and come in safely enough to get that close. Which I think is just an oversite on the designs of Capture and Control, but of course in other games I've used outflankers to hit bases on the very edge without the opponent having any time to defend. I missed doing that this game though because my scorpions came in on the wrong side.

I had put a decent number of my shooty guys at my base for defense, dire avengers, pathfinders, dark reapers, and a unit of guardians. Unfortunately nothing even got close to my base until the point where the lictors had taken out the avengers without me having any chance of reaction. The dark reapers were in a very poor position because of the DoW deployement so they didn't really do anything.
My scorpions did ok, they took out a unit of about 15 jumping upgraded hormagaunts, but they took a lot of damage in the process. That was about all he had in any position to actually take my base though, so the scorpions pretty much guaranteed my base would only ever be contested.
One the attacking side between my guardians and banshees I killed off some gaunts, genestealers, and tied up a broodlord with geenstealer retinue (down to broodlord and single genestealer) and on the last turn my guardians jumped back in a transport and jumped on his base to contest it and get me a draw. The guardians did great on that side, they put all of their firepower to good use, they even finished off a genestealer in CC (it was only a single genestealer though, left after a good round of shooting) My jetbikes didn't do too much there, one round of shooting before they got assaulted by a flying hive tyrant. I expected the tyrant to go after one of my wave serpents but he didn't. My walkers, vypers, and serpents took out his hive tyrant and wore down his two carnifex (killing one, leaving the other with 1 wound). My autarch didn't do so great, he had a fusion gun so I went carnifex hunting with him, but I forgot to jump back with his jetbike assault move and left myself in range of the carnifex which ate him.

It was a pretty good game, I had pretty much lost it, but managed to jump to his base on the last turn. My guardians may have been able to clear his base if we went another turn because all he had there was some gaunts, but I was lucky to even get there to contest it. What I should have done is keep either my banshees or scoprions back to defend my base, because melee defense is what is needed against tyrnids, and taken my dire avengers on the offensive towards his base.

grinner666

2009-03-02, 10:41 PM

So I tied for 7th in the tourney this Saturday out of a field of 10. I might have done better if I'd known they were going to add points for a fully painted army, but I didn't and . . . most (90+ percent) of my army is only primed. I've been concentrating on painting my Eldar lately.

There were three rounds to the competition; first opponent was chosen by lot and opponents for subsequent rounds were decided via some arcane method I really don't understand, based on accumulated scores. I had one tie, one loss and one win, in that order, so all in all I'm not unhappy with how I did . . . it was my first tournament and I certainly learned a lot (more on that later).

Each round had a time limit of two and a half hours, which means most games did not go past turn 4 (except a couple in which one of the contestants was playing a Deathwing army, so he got through his turns rather quickly, having very few units in play).

Round 1: The primary objective here was a modified Seize Ground mission. All terrain pieces that were not actually impassable were considered objectives, and any enemy unit within 6" was considered to be contesting the objective. Setup was a heavily modified version of Dawn of War, in which each player chose two Troops units, his HQ, and two of either his Elites, Fast Attack or Heavy Support to field at the start of the game; all other units had to be rolled on per the Reserves rules.

I was facing another Space Marine army in this one (damned traitors . . . :smallwink:), and our battlefield included seven objectives (six blast craters spread across either side of the board, and two ruined buildings in its center) and four large, impassable clifflike boulders, one near each corner.

By game's end I was holding two objectives, two more were contested (one on his side of the battlefield, one on mine), one was held by my opponent and the two in the center had NO troops units in them at all. However, secondary and tertiary objectives, which involved killing more of the opponent's units, and bonus points for every battle for killing the opposing general (highest-value HQ unit) allowed my opponent to tie me on points.

Things I learned (or confirmed) from this round:

1) Storm Shields suck. Seriously, no model should ever be allowed a 3+ Invulnerable save. And allowing an entire squad to have them is just . . . insane.

2) Reserves suck. Neither of my Fast Attack units was even able to enter the game until the final turn. Had I had those units at any time before the final turn, I might have squeaked a win out of this round. I will never willingly place a unit in reserve.

3) I must learn to not bring my assault-weak Devastators forward to where they can be assaulted. They should sit back to provide covering fire. That's what they're there for.

4) I MUST remember to use the forces I have available; I must have forgotten to fire my Vindicator cannon twice in a four-turn game, and Heavy Support was on the board from the very beginning.

Round 2: The primary objective here was to advance your army by controlling linear table quarters (12" slices of table running parallel to the long table edges). Increasing points values were given to table quarters according to how far they were from your deployment zone (the first table quarter), starting with 0 for your deployment zone and going to 6 for your opponent's deployment zone. Secondary and tertiary objective points went for scoring more victory points and for killing all of your opponent's non-Troops units.

I faced a Necron army on this one. I got spanked, and it was all my damned fault. In the next-to-last turn the Necron Lord teleported himself and a squad of Warriors into my deployment zone. I had the last turn and could have moved one of my own units back into my deployment zone so it would at least be contested, but was so focused on killing the enemy that I failed to do so; I wanted to wipe out one squad of Warriors, and the only unit that could do so was using a Plasma Cannon. So I didn't move them, and he therefore beat me 12-2 instead of 6-2.

Things I learned or confirmed from this round:

1) Necrons and their "We'll Be Back" rule suck. Also, I must learn to bring each and every Codex with me to games, as the Necron player insisted that the only thing that stopped that rule was their dying in Assault combat; I later learned that any instant-kill death also stops that rule from coming into play. I could've killed a much bigger percentage of his army, maybe enough to make the entire army disappear, with my Vindicator, had I known this.

2) C'tan Nightbringers suck it hard. That's all I have to say. Not only are they friggin' invulnerable to nearly everything, but nothing can survive them. I loathe them with a passion I usually reserve for ex-girlfriends. :smallwink:

3) The flanks seem to be the place for my Dreadnought. Placed in the center of the battlefield, he seems to attract an ungodly amount of hostile fire and usually ends up KIA. But on the flanks (where he was for both this and the last battle), he not only survives but seems to achieve a great deal.

4) I must keep my eye on the mission objectives at all times.

Round 3: Primary objective here was to control the center of the table (have a Troops choice on the piece of terrain in the table's center, with no opposing forces within 6"). Secondary objective was to kill the highest-points-cost Troops unit of the opposing army. Tertiary objective was controlling more table quarters than the opponent.

I faced an Imperial Guard opponent for this one, and he made the mistake of trying to turn his army into knockoff Space Marines by taking the Grenadiers doctrine and fielding only Stormtroopers as troops. Unfortunately this not only reduced the size of his army significantly, it didn't leave him enough points to take any Heavy Support choices, and his 4+ armor save really wasn't enough to save any of his squads from concentrated Boltgun fire, and he really didn't have the numbers that are the Imperial Guard's true strength.

I also had the advantage, since all of his troops choices cost the same, of taking the secondary objective by killing off any one of his Troops choices. That was a call by the judges, who apparently felt that uniformity of points cost is a bad thing. Personally I would have required that I at least choose the unit that had to be killed off beforehand, but . . .

At any rate, by game's end I had achieved all three objectives and won 20-0. The IG player controlled ONE table quarter, I had the other three, and he'd not managed to kill any one of my Troops choices, much less my most expensive.

This army will obviously do better against Space Marines in future, now that Hellguns are going to be AP3. I don't think he'd have managed to get a win out of it, but he might not have had such an embarrassing defeat.

Anyway, I had a lot of fun, but I'm thinking maybe next time (two months from now) I'll go with my Iyanden army. They kick ass.

:smallbiggrin:

Zorg

2009-03-03, 06:46 AM

1) Necrons and their "We'll Be Back" rule suck. Also, I must learn to bring each and every Codex with me to games, as the Necron player insisted that the only thing that stopped that rule was their dying in Assault combat; I later learned that any instant-kill death also stops that rule from coming into play. I could've killed a much bigger percentage of his army, maybe enough to make the entire army disappear, with my Vindicator, had I known this.

If his lord(s) had a resurrection orb WBB does then work when inflicted by instant death. They survive assault as per normal, except if inflicted by power weapons or instant death (also negated by a res orb). Losing assault and being chased down is the only surefire way to ensure no WBB rolls. Still, the Necron player may have been cheating but it sounds more like he just didn't read his own codex.

I'm suprised they allowed him to play without bringing it - every tourney I've been to has not allowed anyone to play without.

Winterwind

2009-03-03, 08:40 AM

And the aforementioned resurrection orb has a fairly limited range. Units have to have a model within 6" of the Necron Lord for it to work, if I remember correctly. Chances are he had one though, it seems to be fairly standard for Necrons to field those.

In addition, WBB works only if there are models of the same type within a certain distance, not sure if 6 or 12". The only exception to this is if there is a Tomb Spider within 12", then WBB works as long as there is at least one model of the same type anywhere on the battlefield.

Incidentally, I read speculations on other WH40k forums that the new Necron codex, scheduled for the end of 2009, will replace WBB with Feel No Pain.

What do you mean by Nightbringers? Did he field multiple of those? I very much doubt that is allowed... :smalleek:
Though I'm not sure if it would be a wise move to field two of them, either, even if it was allowed, as two Nightbringers would, if memory serves, eat up 720 points all on their own, leaving him with very few Necron models to prevent Phase-Out.

Speaking of 3+ Invulnerable Saves... well, I think Wraiths would rather suck if they did not have that, but they pay a lot of points for that. I hope Marines with Storm Shields do so, too? :smalleek:

(I have almost finished talking one of my friends into Warhammer 40k, at least sufficiently for him to buy the rule book and the codex of his favoured faction, which happened to be Necrons, and I have had a chance to read it)

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-03, 03:29 PM

40 points to get a SS/TH Terminator, so yeah - that's quite a bit.
Of course Black Templars and maybe the other 4th ed SMurfs can get Assault Marines with Storm Shields for 25 points, so that saves a bunch. In the end though, they lose the extra attack for two CC weapons.

Cheesegear

2009-03-03, 09:07 PM

A Gamer's Life, The GRIMDARK Universe, and Everything; Part 1.

Enjoy!

Pre-Tourney Stuff
So, Kate and I woke up at A** o'clock, packed up all our models. She decided that she wanted to use my Witch Hunters army rather than her own - which is barely painted. Jumped in the car and headed down to our Local MickeyD's for some Sausage'n'Egg Muffin goodness, and from there to pick up another friend of mine (not Kate's, lol), who was running an Empire army (he had entered the WHFB part). And then we drove another half an hour listening to bad music.
I have a 'rule' in my car, that if the radio sucks (which it does at ~8:00 in the morning, I can't stand Breakfast radio), then people should bring their own CDs, because otherwise they're listening to my CDs, and some people don't like metal. I can listen to my music anytime I want. So, whilst they're in the car, other people get to choose the music - provided they have it (yeah, that's not usually how it goes). And Kate had some Emo-Punk band that I didn't particularly like, and so that's what we listened to because Kate was in the car before J (John) was.

Anyway, we rock up at 8:30 to a sight of a bunch of obese guys, noisy little bastards kids, and the stench of BO. Kate immediately said "Oh, Lord!" as the nerds stared at her. There were some other (two) girls there, and Kate said "See you for lunch." and then made a bee-line for them. It started off pretty good. As I knew beforehand that the 'rules' of the tournament was "If you don't have your Codex, and a written Army List, you can't play.", and, as luck would have it, there was a Big Black Book (BBB) on each table. I had brought my own, but, it was good to know that if there were rule disputes, there'd be at least one BBB at each table. I was impressed. Similarly, there was a BRD (Big Red Book) at the WHFB tables.

To kick things off, the MC made an announcment, that due to the fact that a lot of noisy little bastards didn't have the 1500 points to participate, because they couldn't cry hard enough convince their parents to buy more models, the point limit for the rest of the day would be reduced to 1000 points, this would make the day run quicker as smaller battles could be played. I think the 'silver lining' was lost on people, as the announcement was met with Boos and Hisses. And since smaller, quicker battles could be run, that would make up the time that we all had to waste writing up new lists.

So, we each tried to find a chair and a place to sit. Most people just sat against a wall with their Codex open on the ground beside them, pen and paper on their lap, and their model case open as they tried to count which models they could and couldn't take. As time passed, I was getting optimistic. A blow like this'd usually have people in fits. But, we were coping. It was meant to be a day of fun, and it was said previously, that disruptions wouldn't be tolerated. Although J was pretty pissed. Apparently his 1500pt list is completely different to his 1000pt list, and he didn't bring his '1000pt' models. Ah well, he'd have to make do. I'm sure other people had similar problems.
Kate - and the other girls - were sitting in a corner. Apparently not worried. Kate was using my army and models, I hoped she knew what she was doing. Hopefully all those games where she played against my Witch Hunters had taught her how my 1000pt list worked. I saw some guy come and try and sit near the girls, he was shooed off. Seriously, didn't they know? One gamer-girl was vulnerable. But, three gamer-girls become just like regular girls, and they'll bite a guys' head off given half a chance. I've learned that about Kate. Just because she's a gamer, she's still a girl lady (What? She might read this).

About 9:00am rolled around (half an hour was more than enough time to write a list), and then the MC made another shocking announcement. Something to the effect of "Parents stay away from the tables. You can watch, but talk too much, and your child will automatically forfeit the match he is playing. Your child is playing. Not you. Let's keep it that way." Some of us, who had terrible experience with parents, smiled gleefully.

So, everyone's names was put into a Hat. I drew 'Table 3', whatever that meant.

My list ended up as;
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc
x5 Flamers
x10 Bloodletters
x10 Daemonettes
(x2) x5 Pink Horrors
Soul Grinder

Lots of Troops, and a varied bunch. So, I'm pretty sure no-one was going to burn me on Comp Score. And only the Soul Grinder was left unpainted (the 'Defiler' section is painted though), so, hopefully painting shouldn't be a problem. It's not a whole lot different to my 1500pt list. It just loses a lot of Fast Attack. I prayed I had enough anti-armour. I did. Although I didn't know it at the time.

Round 1 - Seize Ground (Spearhead) vs. Eldar
I ended up playing one of those girls, who was trucking an Eldar army. I saw a lot of 'White Undercoat with White Highlights' models. Some people just don't care about presentation...I guess. Since it was a Sunday, I asked her how her weekend had been so far, she went out on Friday night...blah blah blah (It's not really important), she asked me how mine was, etc. etc. We chatted throughout the whole game about not-gaming stuff.

It's good knowing that since I play Daemons, we don't have to a* around with who deploys first. She deployed all in the one corner - like she was supposed to.
First thing I thought; Jetbikes (and a special-looking one that I assumed to be a Farseer or something), a Fire Prism, a load of Guardians, a Wraithlord - of course - and a Wave Serpent. No idea what was in it. I never found out :smallwink:

I rolled, and ended up with my Flamers (and Herald), Bloodletters and Soul Grinder down on the first turn.

The 5 (D3+2) Objectives were rather bland, one in each table quarter, and one in the middle. We didn't choose that. Apparently the adjudicator had set this up pre-game. One of those 'time-saver' things. Slightly annoying, since the objectives were stupidly placed,

I dropped my Flamers in her Table Quarter, the Bloodletters down in 'my' Table Quarter. They were slow, and they would stay there all game. My happy Soul Grinder dropped down in another quarter.

I...Did well in the shooting phase. My Herald Bolted the Wave Serpent, getting a 6 on the Vehicle damage result. And she rolled terrible saves (four 2s and two 1s, and the rest were 3s). Whatever was in it, was dead. And then the Herald Gazed the Guardians. Whilst my Flamers Warpfired the rest of them. It didn't end well for her. The guardians passed their Ld. But, they were no longer a scoring unit. My Flamers were dead in her next turn.
Due to Cover, my Soul Grinder couldn't see anything. And just sat there.

Her turn came around, one squad of Jetbikes moved to the empty table quarter. Another moved towards the Soul Grinder.
The Wraithlord moved towards the Soul Grinder. Whilst the second squad of guardians moved to the center of the table.

The Fire Prism turned around and opened Beam Cannon all over my Flamers. The Herald survived...The Wraithlord and jetbikes fired on the Grinder, nothing worse than Shaken (which the Grinder is immune to).

Second turn. No reserves. Damn. The Grinder Phlegm'd and Harvester'd the Jetbikes, totally annihilating them. I think she forgot all about her (almost dead) squad of Guardians in her shooting phase. Her loss. My Herald jumped away on his disc, and Gazed the last of the Guaridans, firing his Bolt at the Fire Prism. I got Weapon Destroyed on it. Get that Prism Cannon out'ta here!

Her turn came again, apparently, the Fire Prism had another weapon and blew apart my Herald. With not a lot to do, the guardians moved to the dead center of the board, and the other jetbike squad sat in place. The Wraithlord again, move forward and (tried to) blast my Soul Grinder. And rolled a 5. I felt sad...Then she told me that "It's not 3rd Ed." and I remembered Glancing Hits mean -2 to the roll. Sweet. B'bye Harvester.

Third turn. Daemonettes and Horrors dropped. The Horrors rolled a bad Scatter and mishap'd a Delayed roll. The Daemonettes made a Run! move and Assaulted the central guardians. My Grinder made a move to Assault the Wraithlord. Time to bring the smackdown!

I rolled my 30 Attacks vs the Guardians, I managed to kill 12. She got a total of 1 of my daemonettes down (Invulnerable saves are awesome!). So, Sweeping Advance and the guardians are down.

The Soul Grinder then delivered a pretty severe Beatdown on the Wraithlord. Pansies Eldar can't stand against Daemonic Engines of Awesome!

She then forfeited. :smallannoyed:
She had one unit of Jetbikes left, and I had two units of Horrors that were going to get Deep Struck (?) onto the last remaining objective. We shook hands, and she asked if I was here with anyone. I said I was here with a girl named Kate, and I pointed to a guy at the far end of the Hall, and that guy. 'That Guy' has his arms in the air. The pose he makes when his Hellblaster Volley Cannon has just decimated a unit. :smallamused:
...Turns out she would join us (Kate, J and I...Heh, or should that be IJK?) for lunch.

Stay tuned for more!

Copper8642

2009-03-03, 09:34 PM

I have a question for the better informed of you out there, pertaining to Techmarines. The stats at the bottom of these two pages for Techmarines and Servitors are different, and I wanted to know why/which one is right. And also, what, model-wise, would make a unit noticeably a Master of the Forge instead of a Techmarine.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020021&prodId=prod1060066

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020021&prodId=prod1060067

Cheesegear

2009-03-03, 09:42 PM

I have a question for the better informed of you out there, pertaining to Techmarines. The stats at the bottom of these two pages for Techmarines and Servitors are different, and I wanted to know why/which one is right.

Get your Codex. I thought GW was totally against publishing of actual stats and the like, and then they go and do it on their own site.

And, the model with a Servo Harness would be a MotF, and one with just one Servo Arm, would be a regular Techie.

Copper8642

2009-03-03, 09:43 PM

The Codex I've seen matches the profile given under the lone Techmarine. Is the Codex I looked at out of date, or is one of them wrong, or what?

Zorg

2009-03-04, 12:38 AM

The stats on the unhelmeted guy's page are the older codex's stats.

Cheesegear - regular techmarines can get full harnesses too.

Make your MotF by giving him either more mars red or more gold are the standards. I have a rank badging system for all my guys that I use as well.

Winterwind

2009-03-04, 10:35 AM

Two questions:
1. When a weapon like, say, a plasma gun overheats, one is, by my understanding, theoretically still entitled to an armour save (right?). Now - does the weapon's AP play a role here, i.e., while one would generally have an armour save when some weapon overheated, one would lose it if the weapon in question was a plasma gun due to its AP 2, or not?

2. When a unit (that has not moved this round) shoots with rapid fire weapons, does one have to declare whether one fires one or two shots before or after the distance to the target unit is measured?

Zorg

2009-03-04, 10:50 AM

1 - They get their normal armour save ("normal saves apply").

2 - The rapid fire unit simply declares their intention to fire - if any of their weapons are within 12" they rapid fire, else fire one shot (pg 28)

Winterwind

2009-03-04, 12:52 PM

1 - They get their normal armour save ("normal saves apply").Ah.
I was not sure if Overheating did not, maybe, sort of count as being hit (and wounded) by the overheating weapon, and thus affected by its AP value. Okay, thanks for the clarification. :smallsmile:

2 - The rapid fire unit simply declares their intention to fire - if any of their weapons are within 12" they rapid fire, else fire one shot (pg 28)Oh, that's how it works... I see. Thanks again. :smallredface:

onasuma

2009-03-04, 01:21 PM

So, Deldar are here. For my warrior squads, Ive decided, its probably worth investing in kited out squad leaders. I was thinking maybe even going so far as to give them agonisers and maybe even a terror fex. Not sure though, it seems a big investment in a W1 model. Experienced players thorghts please.

grinner666

2009-03-04, 08:59 PM

Kitting out the Sybarites is a good idea if the squad has enough meat shields to ensure that the Syb will survive long enough to do some damage. It might be a good idea to consider some Raider squads when kitting out Sybarites; the vehicle will give them a little (OK, very little) extra protection that might keep them alive long enough to get into the Assault.

The difference between an Agoniser and a power weapon is five bloody points. Go for the Agoniser; it'll make all the difference in the world against Space Marines, Bikers and anything else with a T over 3.

The Terrorfex is best handled on a case-by-case basis. It's pretty useless against Necrons and 'Nids with a lot of Synapse creatures, for example, but can come in very handy against lower-LD armies . . . even SMurfs can be shut down . . . momentarily, at least . . . by this weapon. Guardsmen without massive numbers of vox-casters can be fairly reliably turned into masses of huddling children by a couple of squads armed with Terrorfexes and/or Horrorfexes, and they CAN work even if the IG is backed up by it's commander's Leadership. Ork Elite and Fast Attack units, which usually don't have large numbers to build up their Mobs, are another good target.

In general I like the Terrorfex, but again, it depends on the unit(s) you're using it against. If I was using DE in a tournament, I'd be sure to take at least ONE, but I don't think I'd spend the points to outfit EVERY squad with it; not knowing who I'd be facing from one fight to the next, it just wouldn't be worth the points.

BTW I'm still looking for ideas for a Fast Attack unit for Dark Eldar that isn't part of the Wyche cult, for my Haemonculus army.

Copper8642

2009-03-04, 09:21 PM

Well, I can't say I'm all that likely to get into the hobby anytime in the near future, between the money and the lack of other players and available places to meet other players (no hobby shops I know of). However, I do find this a very interesting game, and want to at least try it out just to see how much I enjoy it at some point in my life, probably once I move out (I'm 16).

So, while it's a question that has been asked many many times by many people... which faction sounds right? I've looked through some codices at a bookstore, though never bought any, so I know the basics of most things. The Space Marines sound cool merely because of the servo-harness. I like big flashy technology and gears like that (I like steampunk, do Engineering in WoW, like stuff like that). Servitors pull me too. However, I also hear the Space Marines are one of the most used armies. I don't want to get into that if thats the case (though I know it also depends merely on who happens to play near you and what armies they use).

So the IG also sounds cool, because of the Enginseers and still have servitors, I like the platoon feel to them, and could fill out big armored infantry with Grey Knights if I really wanted to. Finally, the Tau have a very cool feel to them, between the streamlined technology and the auxiliary aliens.

I do not wish for an assault oriented faction, and neither of these seem assault oriented. However, other than numbers and tanks, I can't seem to get a feel for how the IG really play, and was wondering if I could get an answer to that. As a smaller question, how much of an influence do Kroot and Vespids seem to be in Tau armies. Thanks in advance for any help (and thanks for the previous answers)!

grinner666

2009-03-04, 09:27 PM

Well, I can't say I'm all that likely to get into the hobby anytime in the near future, between the money and the lack of other players and available places to meet other players (no hobby shops I know of)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/storelocator/search.jsp;jsessionid=E959F970EDE4064EBCAB9B1D03B5 5112

In my experience most GW stores have gaming tables; you might want to plug your zip code into the search engine at their online store and see if there's anybody at all near you. You might be pleasantly surprised.

:smallbiggrin:

Cristo Meyers

2009-03-04, 09:27 PM

@^careful though, in my experience sometimes the store that comes up doesn't exist anymore/yet.

IG, in my experience, have two main modes of play: Turtle and Mechanized.

Turtles dig into a defensive position with supporting heavy tanks like the Basilisk or other artillery and let the enemy come to them. They also tend to be a bit slow on the assault, so they're not quite as good for capturing terrain, but damn they can hold it! A board with trenches is this type of army's dream.

Mechanized is exactly what it sounds like: tanks and more tanks. Chimeras, Leman Russ's. You'll rely on the tanks to do the heavy hitting and most of your troops will be protected with Chimeras. This army can hit like a hammer when used well.

In general, Guardsmen will die in droves. Their armor is virtually non-existant and they're not as tough as, say, Space Marines.

Copper8642

2009-03-04, 09:31 PM

Thanks for the link... 30 miles... could be worse...

Your "Die in droves" thing brings me to another question. I'm pretty sure Tyranids can outnumber anything if they want, but overall, how to the numbers stack up out of Orks, Tyranids, and IG. I remember the Ork's specifically getting advice to outnumber opponents two or three to one, yet IG and Tyranids also do a lot of numbers... I was wondering how that worked.

Cristo Meyers

2009-03-04, 09:35 PM

Never actually played against 'Nids, so I won't go there.

Orks are the horde army of choice, but their equipment, armor, and in many cases vehicles are subpar: weak armor, poor accuracy, whathaveyou. They're an assault army. Get them into close combat and they shine.

IG it depends on how you build them. Numbers are your friend, yes, but if you want you can go for extra armor or tanks and toughen the individual troops up a bit.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-03-04, 09:56 PM

Your "Die in droves" thing brings me to another question. I'm pretty sure Tyranids can outnumber anything if they want, but overall, how to the numbers stack up out of Orks, Tyranids, and IG. I remember the Ork's specifically getting advice to outnumber opponents two or three to one, yet IG and Tyranids also do a lot of numbers... I was wondering how that worked.

IIRC the "Horde Hierarchy" is Ork > IG > Tyranids

Everything in the Ork Codex is cheap, and you get a significant advantage for having very large squads - as such, you end up with lots of boyz.

Imperial Guard also has large squads, but most players sink a lot of points into tanks, artillery, and the like; you're likely to see a lot of mimimum size squads to fill out requirements.

Tyranids are actually not that horde-y. They can be heavily customized (lots of points) and their high-point models are very good. Sure you'll have a big squad or two, but not even on the level of the IG. They're much more of an "Alien" army rather than a "Starcraft Zerg" army.

Aptera

2009-03-04, 10:38 PM

Two Questions:

I require clarification on the Kroot Hound/Krootox rules. It says that 'you may not have more Kroot Hounds/Krootox attached to a carnivore squad then normal Kroot', is that and the number of Heavy Support/Fast attack slots the only limit on how many kkroot hounds/krootox you can take?

Secondly, How would an all infantry Imperial Guard army work? I've been thinking about it for a while, and the only thing I can think of is lots and lots and lots of Heavy Weapons Squads.

Cristo Meyers

2009-03-04, 10:41 PM

Secondly, How would an all infantry Imperial Guard army work? I've been thinking about it for a while, and the only thing I can think of is lots and lots and lots of Heavy Weapons Squads.

And mortars, don't forget mortars.

DranWork

2009-03-04, 11:04 PM

onasuma

2009-03-05, 02:12 AM

BTW I'm still looking for ideas for a Fast Attack unit for Dark Eldar that isn't part of the Wyche cult, for my Haemonculus army.

Well, haemonculi are good at grafting stuff, right? (Not sure, but I guessed from the decapitator.) From that, I would take some WFB harpy wings, and some nomrmal dark eldar warriors, some kind of two handed weapon and call em helions.

Winterwind

2009-03-05, 09:39 AM

One more Overheating-related question - what happens when a twin-linked weapon (let's say, an Obliterator's twin-linked plasma gun) overheats? Is it allowed to simply ignore the first 1 and re-roll, is it allowed to re-roll, but has to save in order to avoid damage still, or does the overheating override twin-linked, even?
I figure it's the first option, but wanted to make sure.

Zorg

2009-03-05, 10:03 AM

You get to re-roll, and the second roll is the result. The firer only takes damage if the second roll is a '1'. It was answered in a FAQ somewhere - I think it was the previous edition Marine Codex in regards to Techmarines.

Edit - It's in the rulebook! The section under gets hot called "Gets Hot! and re-rolls" :smalltongue:

Winterwind

2009-03-05, 10:11 AM

Edit - It's in the rulebook! The section under gets hot called "Gets Hot! and re-rolls" :smalltongue:Gah! I need to stop assuming just because I do not remember there was a rule that there is no rule. And stop posting these questions if they come to me while I'm at work, with no rulebook handy. My apologies. :smallredface:

Also, thanks. :smallsmile:

Copper8642

2009-03-05, 04:10 PM

So how often does the "Without Number" bit come into play? Do people often use that, or do they just spend the points on more/better squads to begin with?

Erloas

2009-03-05, 04:49 PM

Well I don't know the points cost of "without numbers" but I've ran into it a few times while playing. Each unit is worth kill points, so if you are playing an annihilation game it could be a problem. However when it comes to capturing and defending objectives they are more useful.

In the times I've ran into them, when I realize they have without number I just weaken them to the point where I don't really have to worry about them and then leave them be, if I can.

The biggest issue I've seen with using them is the fact that the whole army generally moves forward, and the unit returns as reserves, so on your side of the table. In most cases this means they come in outside of synapse range and spend the rest of the match lurking on your table edge and not really able to do anything else anyway.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-03-05, 05:30 PM

The biggest issue I've seen with using them is the fact that the whole army generally moves forward, and the unit returns as reserves, so on your side of the table. In most cases this means they come in outside of synapse range and spend the rest of the match lurking on your table edge and not really able to do anything else anyway.

I've actually never seen this rule in play, but can it be used on Outflanking Units - and if so, can the Reserve Unit outflank?

Erloas

2009-03-05, 05:45 PM

I've actually never seen this rule in play, but can it be used on Outflanking Units - and if so, can the Reserve Unit outflank?

There are very few units that can get the ability, the only ones I've ever seen use it are gaunts (or was it hormagaunts... the ones with the ranged weapon).

Copper8642

2009-03-05, 08:35 PM

New question: Bionics? How often will they really save a soldier from dying? And given you can only give it to unit leaders and the like, is it going to save you all that much when they do work?

And for probably the noobiest question so far: What do the Strategy Ratings for the factions mean? I can't find a meaning to it anywhere. All I know is that some factions are 1s, others are 3s, etc. etc.

Erloas

2009-03-05, 10:54 PM

I don't know on Bionics...
As for Strategy Rating, that was before my time, but I believe some of the older editions of the rules made use of it. As far as I know it means absolutely nothing now and it isn't in any of the newer rulebooks. An Autarch special rule in the eldar codex says something about it, but it has no effect any more.

grinner666

2009-03-05, 11:28 PM

New question: Bionics? How often will they really save a soldier from dying? And given you can only give it to unit leaders and the like, is it going to save you all that much when they do work?

I would think the answer to this question would be obvious, as it's spelled out in the rules: Bionics will save a squad leader from dying one time in six. Frankly I never buy them unless I've got points I need to spend that I can't spend on anything useful.

And for probably the noobiest question so far: What do the Strategy Ratings for the factions mean? I can't find a meaning to it anywhere. All I know is that some factions are 1s, others are 3s, etc. etc.

As Erloas said, SR doesn't mean a damned thing any more. What it did once was increase the number of dice you'd roll for initiative and the like. For example, Space Marines (strategy rating 4) would roll four dice when choosing table sides or rolling to see who was the attacker/defender, or who was going first, while Chaos Marines (SR3) would only roll three dice. Highest single die roll still determined the results, so it was possible for an army with a LOUSY strategy rating to beat one with a great one, but it wasn't all that likely.

All in all, losing it simplifies the game and really doesn't harm any army; it's one of the (relatively few) decisions GW has made recently with which I agree wholeheartedly.

:smallbiggrin:

Fuzzy_Juan

2009-03-05, 11:55 PM

Two Questions:

...

Secondly, How would an all infantry Imperial Guard army work? I've been thinking about it for a while, and the only thing I can think of is lots and lots and lots of Heavy Weapons Squads.

Hmm...I have looked into an all Infantry IG army...and the word is...expensive. In actual currency for the country you live in. All infantry will be using alot of models, and as such...you will be buying a crapton of infantry boxes and heavy weapon teams. And you will NEED the heavy weapon teams. If you have no vehicles...you MUST have a decent amount of high strength weapons...and BS 3 means that you need at least 2 guns to ensure an average of 1 hit. Note that in infantry squads, your other weapons will also have to fire at the same target as your other squads...so choose your special weapons accordingly...flamers make poor choices to go with las cannons ya know. Though Plasma goes well with just about everything. Command squads are your special weapon platforms, love them.

When dealing with all infantry, learn to love the doctrines light infantry and droptroops. The cameoline is interesting, but not that important...when doing missions that require flexibility in placement, spending an extra 10 pts to make a squad have infiltrate and move through cover seems well worth it to me. It says that any unmounted infantry can be made light...including those heavy weapon teams attached to your HQ...enjoy starting the game with heavy bolters and missles perched on top of buildings with command of the battlefield. Worried about their deep strikers...or maybe vehicles...keep some of your squads in reseve and outflank or deep strike them behind lines for happy melta action or whatever suits your fancy...they'll get one shot, but it will be worth it.

If you do plan to make a very static army and will likely be playing against shooty opponents, think about the cameoline. It adds up fast, but making all that cover +1 means alot...especially if you are gonna just sit there all game. 3+ cover all the time and 2+ if they are good fortifications...which if you play static IG, you should always bring a few with you :smallbiggrin:

Of course...pie is your enemy, so are damn near all template weapons. and close combat...what use is your massive shooting if you can't shoot that mob in combat with your guys. prey your squads get wiped out in combat as they get assaulted...if they stand fast and don't break, then it just sucks.

grinner666

2009-03-07, 01:09 AM

And you will NEED the heavy weapon teams. If you have no vehicles...you MUST have a decent amount of high strength weapons...and BS 3 means that you need at least 2 guns to ensure an average of 1 hit. Note that in infantry squads, your other weapons will also have to fire at the same target as your other squads...so choose your special weapons accordingly...flamers make poor choices to go with las cannons ya know. Though Plasma goes well with just about everything. Command squads are your special weapon platforms, love them.

The problem with heavy weapons SQUADS or PLATOONS is that they have far fewer meat-shields than normal Infantry squads, and also attract far higher levels of attention specifically because they're not only more dangerous, they're easier to kill. Also, they are far less tactically flexible than other infantry squads; if they move, they're pretty close to useless. A few heavy weapons squads as heavy support (all that's available for heavy support if you're going with an all-infantry company) is a good idea, but it would also be a good idea to take SPECIAL weapons squads as part of the HQ platoon; they can move and still fire, which makes them much more effective in general.

When dealing with all infantry, learn to love the doctrines light infantry and droptroops. The cameoline is interesting, but not that important...when doing missions that require flexibility in placement, spending an extra 10 pts to make a squad have infiltrate and move through cover seems well worth it to me. It says that any unmounted infantry can be made light...including those heavy weapon teams attached to your HQ...enjoy starting the game with heavy bolters and missles perched on top of buildings with command of the battlefield. Worried about their deep strikers...or maybe vehicles...keep some of your squads in reserve and outflank or deep strike them behind lines for happy melta action or whatever suits your fancy...they'll get one shot, but it will be worth it.

The Light Infantry doctrine is worthless; infiltrating your already-vulnerable-via-their-lack-of-meatshields heavy weapons platoons is a certain recipe for dead heavy weapons platoons, and if you have a frikkin' clue about what you're doing you'll have buildings with command of the battlefield in your deployment zone. Drop Troops are okay, but there are far more important doctrines that can be added to Infantry-only armies; Sharpshooters and Iron Discipline spring immediately to mind.

Of course...pie is your enemy, so are damn near all template weapons. and close combat...what use is your massive shooting if you can't shoot that mob in combat with your guys. prey your squads get wiped out in combat as they get assaulted...if they stand fast and don't break, then it just sucks.

Pie plates are everybody's enemy, as most are AP3 and a couple are AP1. Since they still allow cover saves, though, I don't understand your point here. Everybody hates them, almost nobody gets an armor save from them . . . what's your point? That IG should run for cover against Ordnance? EVERYONE should. Same goes for template weapons, except you don't get a cover save . . . everybody except maybe SMurfs and Necrons hate 'em. So wipe out the squads with flamers before they get close enough to use them, or suffer the consequences.

And suggesting an IG player "prAy" his squad gets wiped out as it's assaulted is, frankly, just dumb. A squad that survives an initial assault can always continue to inflict more damage on the enemy, or even win . . . especially if there's another squad nearby to add to the assault . . . likely in the case of IG, whose strength lies in numbers. Hoping the squad gets killed in the assault is just defeatist thinking. Planning for the squad to have backup that will allow it to win is what the IG player should be doing.

onasuma

2009-03-07, 02:41 AM

I disagree on the infiltrate side of things. You dont have to deplot super close, but this allows you to set them all up opposite the biggest target for them. If lascannons, opposite the pihrana squad, if bolters, opposite the squishy guard commander. Infiltrate is great for sqauds that are good at killing one thing - it lets you deploy after you know where it is.

Fuzzy_Juan

2009-03-07, 10:49 AM

I have found that one often does not choose where certian terrain pieces are placed, and often you don't get your side of choice. Terrain can block lanes of fire, make certian shots difficult from any place in your staring zone. While closer is not always better, especialy with squishies like guard, there may be times that the best firing position is just outside of your zone, or that there is interveining terrain and that you would be best served by placing a unit in a position to fire on the enemy. Especially useful when they deploy in a refused flank to bum rush one side. (though perhaps not as useful a tactic in 5th ed thanks to no consolodation into cc). I've seen guard players use it to great effect before to place their guns in the right spot. They said they would much rather spend the points to ensure they are in a good firing position turn one then have them move to fire on your target of choice and be useless until turn 2, or god forbid you have to move again and are a waste till turn 3...when, you'll likely be in combat. I seem to recall being told overseeing one game that a unit could climb as far as they moved...as such, getting to the top of the citadel spire was lnegthy since the cityfight skyscraper was like 18-20" above ground floor and difficult terrain all the way whose walls blocked LoS and was damn near always placed in mid board. Infiltrators would hope to infiltrate first into the top of that building to have a clear line of fire on the entire board with minimal fear of being charged. i need to reread the 5th ed buildings stuff to see if that changed.

As far as praying for a quick cc death or break, since there is no more consolodation into CC, a squad tying up an enemy in cc when you could be shooting them sucks. Mainly because, then the only answer is to do what you said and rush in more troops to countercharge and hope you can wipe them out or win on their next turn. IG strength is in shooting (barring ogryns and cavalry charges...maybe allied gk). It depends on the situation always. There will be times when you get rushed by an enemy that you can match and beat them back in cc. Most however that will charge you or get close enough to be charged will be tooled for cc and will just not make your day. Often assaulting more men into the pile is a last ditch hope...if necessary...do it. However, if a 10 man squad gets charged by say...genestealers and 6 get killed in a blink killing one back...you had better hope that those men break and die...you don't want your answer to them to send in more men. If they die, your nearby troops can probably take down the squad or reduce them significantly...if they join combat, there is a good chance that they will die horribly before they get a chance to even strike. Same thing if you get attacked by a walker. Unless you have a powerfist in that squad or melta bombs, you had best hope that they die or run to regroup if you actually want to kill it. Now...if you just wanna tie up a squad, fine, hope they live. they die fast, but whatever, guard are cheap. If you ant to shoot an enemy though, they need to be free to be shot.

Ooh, templates, blast, and ordinance being extra bad for guard i would say mainly because guard often pack tighter to hug cover and to use close order drill. As such, they often are pretty tight. Especially when they field 100+ models in an all infantry army that all want clear lines of fire and cover. now that squads can cover each other it is less of an issue, but still bad. Other armies can spread out a bit more...tyranids often do to ensure synapse, dunno bout orks as much.

Different people have different styles. And it all depends on who you regularly face and the type of terrain you often see.

evil_d4_swarm

2009-03-07, 10:32 PM

I was flipping through my ork codex when I noticed that Mad dok Grotsnik lets every unit in his army have cybork bodies for 5 points a model (each unit is taken seperately). The wording of the ability does not limit the cyborkiness to any type, so could this be used to give a battle/looted wagon or whatever vehicle a +5 invulnerable save?

Erloas

2009-03-08, 12:14 AM

They cover that in the Ork FAQ, it says any non-vehicle can be given the upgrade, including gretchin and HQ (which just makes it cheaper for the HQs). The only exception is unique (special named) characters, which can never have their equipment modified.

I had 2 more games today.
First was 1500 against CSM, khorne mostly. It was spearhead deployment and annihilation. He had a land raider and terminators, and this was my first time facing either. He also had 2 rhinos with units of berserkers, a vehicle with a demolisher cannon (forget which one that is), a chaos lord in terminator armor and a unit of devistators.
Since I didn't have much of anything that could hurt the land raider (2 EMLs at str8, and 2 farseers with singing spears) I basically just ignored it as much as possible, which worked out well and it was the only thing left on the table when we ended at turn 5 (we didn't even roll for turn 6 because it was moot). The banshees made short work of the chaos lord (the banshees got the charge, the other players warned him of the dangers but he tried it anyway), the next turn they killed off a unit of khorn berskers (the berskers charged them), and last they finished off the terminator squad, so all in all they did well for themselves. The scorpions also taught the second unit of berskers a that they aren't the top of the assault food chain, killing off 7 of them (which was a bit lucky on the failed saves, but not outragously so).
Final result I had 7 kill points, he had 3. 2 units of bikes I used as a distraction to slow down the land raider and terminators, and a war walker that got ate by the termies before the banshees got to them. My banshees where down to 2 models and my guardian squad was just one guy with the platform, everything else had few or no wounds.

The last battle was a 4 way free for all at 585 points a side. We were going to do 2 teams at first but then rolled spearhead deployement and decided to just do free-for-all. It was annihilation and we gave killpoints for the killing blow of a unit. It was 585 points because all the SM player has was the starter box (and didn't realize he could get more points by changing their equipement). The other 2 sides were Orks and IG, I was between those two and across from the SM, I went last. The ork player pretty much came right after me, the IG player split between me and the SM and the SM player kind of just hid in his corner. Scorpions took out 2 units of orks before running into the big boss and his nobs. Dire avenergers layed waste to a unit of boyz and some guard and lived through the whole game along with a farseer. The guardians traded fire with some guard and generally came out ahead but still died in the process. Jetbikes didn't do much, killed a few boyz then got waaaghed over. The war walker didn't even get to move before he was rocketted down by some ork deffkoptas. The IG and SM players traded fire but overall didn't really destroy too much. SM got 2 sentinals but never managed to finish off the last one for KPs, and he got one command squad but nothing else. The IG player didn't manage to finish off any of the SM units (though the Ork player finished off the dread the IG player mostly disabled).
Final result I had 7 kill points (3 ork, 4 IG), the ork player had 4 kill points (3 from me, 1 from SM), the IG player had 1 (from me) and the SM player had 1 (from IG).

Killersquid

2009-03-08, 12:44 AM

My 1250 Orks took on Tau for the first time today. Went very poor. He used lots of crisis suits and hammerheads, so he kept far away from the Boyz at all times. I'm thinking against Tau next time is to take a mob of 20 Stormboyz and Zagstruk to just smash into the Tau from a deepstrike right behind them, or just go straight up speed freeks and rush them with trukks and bikes.

Also, 6 Bikes are awful. I need to get at least 9 or 10.

Myatar_Panwar

2009-03-08, 02:31 AM

Man Erloas, how in the world does a squad of Banshees kill a whole squad of Berserkers when they have the charge. Its just not fair. :(

Doing the math really quick, it seems that with a 10 man squad of banshees, you would kill precisely...3 berserkers on defense round one? On average. Then I would assume that the berserker squad has 10 originally, with 7 left should on average kill... 8 banshees round 1 offense. So I assume you just got lucky/he got unlucky?

Sorry, just had to do the math there to see for myself. I'm playing Khorne and my friend is considering an Eldar army. You were starting to scare me. :smalltongue:

Erloas

2009-03-08, 10:33 AM

Did you forget that the banshee mask gives them I 10 on the first round of combat and that they have counter-attack so they get the bonus attacks? Basically he charges me, I go first with all the bonuses of charging, then what he had left gets to attack back. I had killed a few berskers before combat, and I think at that point the banshees were still full strength.

I ran the numbers and that would average 4.5 kills from the normal banshees, 1.25 kills from the exarch and 0.14 kills from the farseer, total of 5.89 kills on average. I remember that I had killed 7 in that combat, so slightly above average but not by a great amount. I think he had 1-2 left to attack back, which I think managed to kill 3-4 banshees then they failed their fearless based armor-saves.

I think you just missed the extra attacks from counter-attack.

It was actually the scorpions that did well above average. Running the numbers with them the normal ones should have done 3 unsaved wounds and another 0.75 from the exarch. So about 4 total and they did 7. At that point though there were only 7 berserkers left, so they didn't have any attacks back.

MorhgorRB

2009-03-08, 10:54 AM

Erloas

2009-03-08, 11:14 AM

Ie. He should have just stopped in front of the banshee's and let them have a full clip of bolt pistol. ...unless the Banshee's have a 4+ save, I always forget which of those skin tight suits count as armour...

The banshees are 4+ save, the only 5+ saves for the eldar are the guardians and the rangers, all of the aspect warriors are either 3+ or 4+. That would also mean that next turn he gets a round of shuriken pistol fire as well as being charged by the banshees (and loosing his furious charge bonus and extra attacks) and it would have given me a chance to drop Doom on the unit of berserkers as well, which would have pretty much guarenteed no survivors. Doom would have put the average at just over 9 kills (from a full unit, just in CC, not counting any deaths from shooting on either side which I know there would have been, average of 1.11 for the banshees since they had fortune, and average of 1.67 for the berskers (again with Doom), counting shooting at full strength and ignoring the champions extra BS).

I'm sure he'll have learned like everyone else that no matter what unit it is, charging banshees is never a good idea and that they need much more shooting attention early on in the game.

Winterwind

2009-03-08, 12:28 PM

In that context, a question - why do Skorpions seem to be so preferred in comparison to Banshees by Eldar players here (or maybe my perception is just skewed by Oracle_Hunter's many, many declarations of his love for them, and I'm actually attributing other Eldar players with what he said :smallbiggrin:)?

Maybe it's the CSM player in me speaking, but Banshees seem a lot more terrifying to me, with their power weapons, fleet-of-foot and incredible "screw over opponent in every manner imaginable on first turn" abilities. Sure, the Skorpions have slightly better S and armour save, but does that really compensate for what the Banshees can do?

Lorn

2009-03-08, 12:30 PM

onasuma

2009-03-08, 12:31 PM

Who helped break a warhammer world record? I helped break a warhammer world record!

GW Bluewater now holds the record for most tanks killed in any one battle. While the previous was 319 we managed a wopping 394, including nearly 100 super heavies! (most of which were killed by either my 4 carnefixes or some guys eldar titan)

yeah, that was awesome.

Erloas

2009-03-08, 12:53 PM

Because no matter how scary they are, a ten man squad of Marines with bolters rapidfiring will likely kill them... they only have T3 and a 5+ save, IIRC.

Scorps are some of the only Eldar heavy infantry and can tie up most units in assault fairly well.. Eldar I/WS, 3+ save.

Well you don't recall correctly, as I mentioned they have a 4+ save in the post before Winterwinds...

As for why, it is mostly for 2 reasons, hordes and str3. Against IG, Tyrnids (except genestealers with I6), Orks, and some other situations the increased attacks and higher chance to wound along with a 3+ AS means they do a fair amount better then banshees. Against MEQs the banshees will generally kill more, but the number of forced saves doesn't put the scorpions far behind them. So if you don't know what you are going to be facing the scorpions are a better all-comers sort of choice.

In most cases banshees really need a farseer hanging around with them to toss out a doom to really help that str3 they are stuck with. Fortune helps a lot too with a 4+ save. The scorpions also have the option to infiltrate or outflank, which means they can get to where they are going more reliably then banshees can if you don't have a transport to give them.

In short the banshees just need more support then the scorpions do to do their job well. When they have that support they are probably one of the most deadly units in the game, without it though they can be hit or miss.

For me, so long as its a decent sized game (over 1000) I don't see a lot of reason to not take both because they both have their uses against any army.

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-08, 12:57 PM

I don't even want to know how you managed to place over 394 tanks on the table at all. It would have to be about the size of the entire store! :smalleek:

Winterwind

2009-03-08, 01:09 PM

Who helped break a warhammer world record? I helped break a warhammer world record!Woo! Congratulations! :smallbiggrin:
How many points were in this game, and how long did it take?

@Skorpions: More attacks? :smallconfused:
*looks up*
Oh! For some reason, I thought Skorpions had no shuriken pistols. :smallredface:
Yeah, with one more attack than the Banshees, in addition to the other advantages, I can see why Skorpions would be preferable in many situations.
Nevermind. Brain failure struck once again. :smallbiggrin:

Myatar_Panwar

2009-03-08, 01:11 PM

I think you just missed the extra attacks from counter-attack.

Yeah wasn't sure if you had an Exarch or not. And I didn't even know about that rule anyway.

I'm scared again. Though I guess you do still need to roll a leadership test for it, so not that bad.

Also, you have to make armor saves if your fearless? Or something? Not really sure what you meant by that.

Winterwind

2009-03-08, 01:20 PM

I'm scared again. Though I guess you do still need to roll a leadership test for it, so not that bad.No, they don't. Banshees with an exarch with that ability always get a bonus attack when charged, no tests or anything involved.
They do have an ability that calls for a leadership test, but that does something different. Namely, it lowers your WS to 1 if you fail it for this round. :smallamused:
EDIT: And, I forgot to say, it's you rolling the test, not them. Also, it's useable on the first round of combat only as well.

Also, you have to make armor saves if your fearless? Or something? Not really sure what you meant by that.If you lose a close combat and are fearless, you do not have the risk of the unit breaking and running away, but instead you take an additional amount of wounds equal to the amount of points by which you lost the close combat, and roll armour saves against these.

Myatar_Panwar

2009-03-08, 01:49 PM

Good to know.

And do Exarch's just always allow a unit to pass leadership tests then? Because all I see under Acrobatic is that the squad gets the counter attack rule. Which requires a leadership test.

onasuma

2009-03-08, 02:11 PM

Well, I was there all day (11-4) none stop and so were most people, but there were some people jumping in and out. Also, it was "bring as many tanks/monstrous nids as you can" we were quite a way off the record for most tanks in one battle though. We just killed more. I had about 1500 - 4 tooled up carns, and a scythed heirodule. At a guess, Id say we had about 10k points a side most of the time, but not everything was around from turn 1 (its only a small store...) Still, Simon (the scythed heirodule) mopped up 7 baneblade/shadowswords/whatevers and his 4 kids knocked off another 10. It was a good game.

Winterwind

2009-03-08, 02:17 PM

And do Exarch's just always allow a unit to pass leadership tests then? Because all I see under Acrobatic is that the squad gets the counter attack rule. Which requires a leadership test.Oh, counter attack itself necessitates a leadership test? *looks up*
Nevermind then; all I knew was that the Banshees ability didn't mention any tests, I didn't remember the counter attack rule itself required one. Yes, Banshees need to roll a leadership test, then.

Well, I was there all day (11-4) none stop and so were most people, but there were some people jumping in and out. Also, it was "bring as many tanks/monstrous nids as you can" we were quite a way off the record for most tanks in one battle though. We just killed more. I had about 1500 - 4 tooled up carns, and a scythed heirodule. At a guess, Id say we had about 10k points a side most of the time, but not everything was around from turn 1 (its only a small store...) Still, Simon (the scythed heirodule) mopped up 7 baneblade/shadowswords/whatevers and his 4 kids knocked off another 10. It was a good game.Heh, awesome. :smallbiggrin:

onasuma

2009-03-09, 11:54 AM

So, I have an apoc game soon against a few of the GW staff around here. My list is as follows and critics and comments would be nice:

Apocalypse Nurgle 3000

Super heavy fun:

Plague Tower (700)
Inside:

6 terminators (180), 2 sets of lightning claws (20), 2 chainfists (30), 2 powerfists (20), heavy flamer (5), MoN (40).

1 termy lord (90 +30), combi melta (5), daemon weapon (25), MoN (20),
7 plague marines (161), plague champion (15), power weapon (15), melta bombs (5), 2 flamers (10)

Mortarion (450), 3 (should only be two, but rules don’t allow for that) deathshroud (230), 2 storm shields (20)

Total of section: 2071

Bikes:

6 chaos bikers (198), MoN (50), 2 plasma guns (30), champion (15), power fist (25), melta bombs (5)

Chaos Lord (90), Bike (30), daemon weapon (40), MoN (20), melta bombs (5),

Total of section: 508

Other Bits:

7 plague marines (161), plague champion (15), melta bombs (5), 2 flamers (10)

7 plague marines (161), plague champion (15), power fist (25), melta bombs (5), 2 melta guns (20)

Total of section: 417

Total: 2996

Winterwind

2009-03-09, 12:30 PM

Only 40 models in a 3000 point army? Wow... and here I was thinking my 63 model 2000 points army had a too high point-per-model ratio already... :smalleek:

Okay, bear in mind I have practically zero experience with the game...

Wouldn't it make more sense to swap the plasma and the melta guns? On one hand, the meltas have to get close to be fully effective, which the bikers can accomplish much more easily than the foot-slogging plague marines, and on the other, if a plasma gun Gets Hot, you would risk losing less points if it was carried by a plague marine, not to mention FNP would lower the risk of something bad happening in the first place.

Also, I assume that Plague Tower is armed with a big selection of heavy weaponry? Because otherwise, I can't help but notice you have absolutly none in your army... :smalleek:

Erloas

2009-03-09, 12:36 PM

How many rounds did you play in the big game? I would assume at least 7 considering that your one guy killed 7. Which would mean you were averaging about 50 dead tanks a turn.

What I'm wondering though is how you managed to get that many turns in. The last Apoc game I played took probably 2 hours or more per turn (both sides), and I don't think we got more then about 4 rounds total in over an entire day.

I also think you way underestimated how many points you had on the table unless you were cycling out a lot of points all the time. Because at 20k points total with 400 vehicles (we have to assume there were more then that unless you killed them all) that would only be 50 points per model on average, not including any non-vehicles (and we know there were a lot of monstrous creatures) and with a high percentage of super-heavies. Even if most of your vehicles were transports and light tanks and walkers that would be hard to get that low of an average.

onasuma

2009-03-09, 05:46 PM

I tried to reply earlier, forum ate my post...

@ winterwind: yes, its only a few, but think how 2 of these things are superheavies (or effectively in the case of mortarion. W5, regen, feel no pain, 2+ rerollable armour save, 4+ rerollable invun save, instant death, S8, ws 9 and always wounds on 2+ anyway). Once I get mortarion into combat, hes sticking around. Hes made to pull tanks to pieces.

The plaguetower has stats online, so if you want to have a gander at its guns, its here: Suffice is to say, yes, it has big guns.

@erolas: 6 turns. I had one lucky shot from my s7 hellstorm template that took out a BB. rolled a 6 to penertrate rear armour on it, then a 6 for damage, followed by a 6 and then a 5.

We played it so fast, due to having everyone doing whatever they needed to at the same time. Yes it did get confusing (3 people shooting at my carns at once was annoying), but it was certainly quick. Also, we discounted most of the assualt phase, the only things ever getting into combat were my carns and a few dreads.

And yes, there was veichle cycling, but not to much. It was more reserves that wouldnt fit on the table from turn one.

Winterwind

2009-03-09, 08:58 PM

@ winterwind: yes, its only a few, but think how 2 of these things are superheavies (or effectively in the case of mortarion. W5, regen, feel no pain, 2+ rerollable armour save, 4+ rerollable invun save, instant death, S8, ws 9 and always wounds on 2+ anyway). Once I get mortarion into combat, hes sticking around. Hes made to pull tanks to pieces.Well, but this still leaves you with 1850 points of conventional army with only 38 models. :smalltongue:
Though I guess maybe it's common to use a more elite army in Apocalypse, against--- sweet merciful Horus, how does one stop that thing? For 450 points, that's an incredible bargain! :smalleek:
(Unless it doesn't have Eternal Warrior, but I guess you just didn't mention it as a matter of course.)

The plaguetower has stats online, so if you want to have a gander at its guns, its here: Suffice is to say, yes, it has big guns....okay, that thing has firepower, alright. :smalleek:
Its heaviest guns are a bit shortranged, but I guess you want to get close anyway. :smallcool:

The thing that would interest me the most, though - as it is a more generally applicable strategic philosophy - is why you chose to put the plasma guns on the bikers and the melta guns on the plague marines, rather than vice versa. I outlined the reasons why the latter seems more sensible to me in my previous post - I figure the bikes have the best chance to quickly get into a range where they can use the meltas against enemy vehicles, and in this case it's also a choice between endangering a 33 point-model with a 4/6 chance to survive overheating, as opposed to a 23 point-model with a 5:6 chance to survive it. So, what's the advantage of doing it your way?

onasuma

2009-03-10, 02:26 AM

The bikes are there to hunt heavy infantry with big guns, such as devastators or dark reapers. Plasma guns fit that role, not meltas.

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-10, 06:26 AM

But meltagun shoot heavy infantry dead too, as well as tanks. What's more, they can often instant kill them, with such a high strength.
Plasma guns have more range, but it doesn't matter too much when you can just turboboost into range.

Winterwind

2009-03-10, 07:15 AM

The bikes are there to hunt heavy infantry with big guns, such as devastators or dark reapers. Plasma guns fit that role, not meltas.Hmmm... okay, I see. Frankly, didn't think about heavy infanrty that stays behind. And I guess most tanks of the kind that stays behind and shoots from afar are sufficiently lightly armoured for plasmas to be able to damage them as well.

But meltagun shoot heavy infantry dead too, as well as tanks. What's more, they can often instant kill them, with such a high strength.
Plasma guns have more range, but it doesn't matter too much when you can just turboboost into range.Plasma guns have twice the number of attacks though, and they can damage or destroy most vehicles as well.
It's a trade-off - either works against both tanks and heavy infantry, but one is better suited against one, the other against the other.

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-10, 02:39 PM

Right, but firing twice with the plasma gun doubles the risk of them overheating.
Oh well, each to their own I guess. Meltaguns FTW!

Erloas

2009-03-10, 03:49 PM

Right, but firing twice with the plasma gun doubles the risk of them overheating.
Oh well, each to their own I guess. Meltaguns FTW!

It also doubles their chance of killing something. With gets-hot and a 3+ AS you are looking at an average of 18 shots before it kills its owner, so its not a really high chance. Its a given that it seems to happen a lot more then that, but thats the statistics. Considering that it is for a game of Apocalypse I wouldn't worry about it though, because there are enough Str8+ AP1-2 large and larger templates flying around that the bikes are much more likely to get wasted by something else long before they get the chance to kill themselves. In that case getting the most fire out of them while you can is worth a bit more. In a normal game it might not be the best choice, but given the situation I think its a more then acceptable risk.

Bryn

2009-03-10, 05:04 PM

Er, by my calculation, the Marine is more likely to die than not after 13, not 18 shots :smalltongue: (Still pretty unlikely)
Chance of dying: 1/6 * 2/6 = 1/18
Chance of not dying: 17/18
Chance of surviving...
1 shot: 17/18 = 94.4%
2 shots: 289/324 = 89.2%
3 shots: 4913/5832 = 84.2%
4 shots: 79.6%
5 shots: 75.1%
6 shots: 71.0%
7 shots: 67.0%
8 shots: 63.3%
9 shots: 59.8%
10 shots: 56.5%
11 shots: 53.3%
12 shots: 50.4%
13 shots: 47.6%

(And while I'm calculating, compare that with a Guardsman:)
Chance of dying: 1/6 * 4/6 = 1/9
Chance of not dying: 8/9
Chance of surviving...
1 shot: 8/9 = 88.9%
2 shots: 64/81 = 79.0%
3 shots: 512/729 = 70.2%
4 shots: 4096/6561 = 62.2%
5 shots: 55.5%
6 shots: 49.3%
From this, we can only conclude that the marines are PANSIES.

Edit: Gah! First post on a page! You should go read what Erloas said, it's much more relevant. :smallbiggrin:

Illiterate Scribe

2009-03-10, 05:42 PM

Yeah, I've found with my Daemons (admittedly, few vehicles), that plasma weapons are nastier. Given that they'll both be wounding on twos, they're identical in that respect, but you'll need more shots to counteract the inevitable fiesta of coversaves your enemy will be sporting.

Erloas

2009-03-10, 06:05 PM

Er, by my calculation, the Marine is more likely to die than not after 13, not 18 shots :smalltongue: (Still pretty unlikely)
Chance of dying: 1/6 * 2/6 = 1/18
Chance of not dying: 17/18
Chance of surviving...
1 shot: 17/18 = 94.4%
2 shots: 289/324 = 89.2%
3 shots: 4913/5832 = 84.2%
4 shots: 79.6%
5 shots: 75.1%
6 shots: 71.0%
7 shots: 67.0%
8 shots: 63.3%
9 shots: 59.8%
10 shots: 56.5%
11 shots: 53.3%
12 shots: 50.4%
13 shots: 47.6%

Well as you have said, its 1 out of 18 that is the fatal combination, but obviously the more shots you take the closer you get to having that even come true. However, since this doesn't run on a limited set, but an unlimited set, you are not guarenteed that even after 18 shots the person is dead (which your numbers should show). You could kill both of them off in the first round of shooting, you might also go several games without having a single one die from plasma, thats just how it works.

Although looking at it from a "will it happen in a single game" your percentages are a very good guideline, but with a large enough set (and statistically average dice) it will come out to 1/18, or about 5.5% chance of happening on any given roll.

Bryn

2009-03-10, 06:38 PM

I agree!

Sorry; that last post was to very pedantically disagree on a rather minor point - how many turns you can reasonably hope he'll last in a game, not guaranteeing anything, etc. etc.. Coming back to the thread results in "What was I thinking?"

Definitely very agreed that 18 shots doesn't guarantee anything. Based on the same calculations as above, 18 shots are about 64% likely to kill off a Marine*. 25 shots are needed to get 75% probability of death, and a whopping 41 to bring it over 90%. Just to prove that I really need something better to do (:smallbiggrin:), here's a graph (http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/9629/graphofdeadmarines.png) of y=100(1-(17/18)x)

*but if he's lived for 17 shots, the next one is still has a 1/18 chance of killing him.

grinner666

2009-03-10, 09:52 PM

evil_d4_swarm

2009-03-10, 09:58 PM

Erloas

2009-03-11, 10:01 AM

Well I don't know Orks very well, but I'll say what I see.

The Kommandos I'm going to assume have infiltrate or similar, because if not they are going to get wasted early on. Even with infiltrate they seem like they are in a very dangerous spot with almost no save and not having the numbers to survive a whole lot, especially if they are up-front at all making them early targets.

For the large groups of Boyz, I think 30 is too big because they don't need nearly those numbers to do what they need to do. And at those numbers its going to be very hard to have them in cover and they are almost guaranteed to be hit by templates even if they scatter almost full distances. I would think 20 would still give you plenty of models to kill anything they get into combat with even after casualties and you could take the 10 extra models from each unit and make a 3rd unit.

As for the unit with shootas, in most cases you are going to want to be in close combat as quickly as possible, because even with 30 shootas you are still more dangerous in CC then in shooting so you are going to be wanting to run most of the time to close distance as quickly as possible since you have no transports and very little speed to get in quickly and start distracting the enemy. Its a given that with an assault 2 18" range on 30 boyz that is an average of 20 hits, which is pretty good at str4, but its nothing compared to what they do in combat.
The same could probably be said of the big-shootas as well. With all the orks I've seen they always opt to run over shooting because closing the distance to get into CC is usually the better option for them. It is especially important since you are all on foot, with no transports (except 1 at 2k), and you don't have any especially fast units like defkoptas, bikes, or deepstrikers, to get in close early on and divert fire from your main forces.

The last bit is personal choice, since infantry heavy is more then practical for orks, but with only 2 vehicles at 1500 points I wouldn't expect either of them to live past the second round. I would expect them to take a lot of fire because they're the only real target for those anti-vehicle and anti-monstrous creature units that everyone brings. At 2k you have a bit more targets to spread fire, but still not a lot thats going to take much to take down. With the buggys and trukks armor 10 all around they are vulnerable to everything but lasguns and likely to be taken out in very few shots with any anti-vehicle units. With low armor vehicles you either have to have a lot of them so survive the fire, or more pressing targets to draw fire, or not have any. You have no more important targets that are going to draw fire away from them and the trukk is very likely to take almost all the shots someone can put to it until its immobilized or destroyed, and that will likely be turn 1, maybe 2.

Bryn

2009-03-11, 10:36 AM

So :smalltongue: at both of you.

:smallbiggrin:
:smalltongue: to you too sir! But thanks for a bit of common sense...

Wraith

2009-03-11, 11:04 AM

The math really doesn't matter, at least in my experience. And in my experience, Space Marines who fire every turn are going to get wounded by their own plasma weapons roughly once per game, and die from it roughly one time in three.

I concur fully - Murphy's Law trumps mere statistics every. Single. Time.

He hates Warhammer Players especially - that's all there is to it. How else can you explain my Farseer rolling a Perils of the Warp and failing all of his saves in the very first turn, 3 games in a row, and then in the next 3 games at some point also? :smalltongue:

Cristo Meyers

2009-03-11, 11:19 AM

...or my Sorcerer Lord missing with Bolt of Change 5 consecutive times spread out over 3 games...:smallsigh:

...then the Aspiring Sorcerer downs a Vyper with Doombolt and promptly dies from Perils of the Warp.

Winterwind

2009-03-11, 11:21 AM

I concur fully - Murphy's Law trumps mere statistics every. Single. Time.

He hates Warhammer Players especially - that's all there is to it. How else can you explain my Farseer rolling a Perils of the Warp and failing all of his saves in the very first turn, 3 games in a row, and then in the next 3 games at some point also? :smalltongue:Okay, this is impressive. :smalleek:
Are you sure you didn't run over his cat and then break into his house to shoot his puppies in your previous incarnation, or something? :smalltongue:

MeatShield#236

2009-03-11, 08:02 PM

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-11, 09:23 PM

Errr, you need at least two troop choices, and I think you only have one.
Get some more boyz to bulk up your WAAAAGH!!! to start.

Myatar_Panwar

2009-03-11, 09:49 PM

You can have 10 man ork squads. In fact I think that what MeatShield posted was the Orks side of the AoBR box set.

grinner666

2009-03-11, 10:29 PM

Er... hi... Would anyone could be so kind as to critique my planned army list for my to-be-built ork army? :smallsmile: Thanks in advance.

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Ghazghkull Thraka|Standard Ghazghkull Thraka|225
HQ|Big Mek Ordzag|Mek's tools, cybork body, shokk attack gun|125
Elites|6 Lootas|Deffguns|90
Elites|9 Kommandos|Sluggas, choppas, stikkbombs; 1 rokkit launcha; 1 burna|115
|1 Kommando Nob|Slugga, power klaw, stikkbombs|45
Troops|9 Nobz|Stikkbombs, cybork bodies, sluggas, choppas, waaagh! banner|249
|1 Painboy|'Urty syringe, dok's tools, cybork body, stikkbombs|56
Troops|Deff Dread|1 Skorcha, 1 rokkit launcha, grot riggers|95
Troops|29 Ork Boyz|Shootas; 3 big shootas|189
|1 Nob|Shoota, 'eavy armor|21
Troops|29 Ork Boyz|Sluggas, choppas; 2 big shootas|184
|1 Nob|Slugga, big choppa|21
Heavy Support|Looted Wagon|Skorcha, 2 big shootas, grot riggers, red paint job, armor plates, reinforced ram|85
||
Total:|1500[/table]

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Ghazghkull Thraka|Standard Ghazghkull Thraka, 1 ammo runt|228
HQ|Big Mek Ordzag|Mek's tools, cybork body, shokk attack gun|125
Elites|15 Lootas|Deffguns|225
Elites|14 Kommandos|Sluggas, choppas, stikkbombs; 1 rokkit launcha; 1 burna|165
|Boss Snikrot|Mork's Teeth, stikkbombs|85
Troops|9 Nobz|Stikkbombs, cybork bodies, sluggas, choppas, waaagh! banner|249
|1 Painboy|'Urty syringe, dok's tools, cybork body, stikkbombs|56
Troops|Deff Dread|1 Skorcha, 1 rokkit launcha, grot riggers|95
Troops|29 Ork Boyz|Shootas; 3 big shootas|189
|1 Nob|Shoota, 'eavy armor|21
Troops|29 Ork Boyz|Sluggas, choppas; 2 big shootas|184
|1 Nob|Slugga, big choppa|21
Troops|11 Ork Boyz|Sluggas, choppas; 1 rokkit launcha|76
|1 Nob|Slugga, power klaw|41
|Trukk|Big shoota, red paint job, reinforced ram|45
Fast Attack|1 Warbuggy|Twin-linked big shoota|30
Fast Attack|1 Wartrakk OR 1 Skorcha|Wartrakks; twin-linked rokkit launcha OR skorcha|40
Fast Attack|1 Wartrakk OR 1 Skorcha|Wartrakks; twin-linked rokkit launcha OR skorcha|40
Heavy Support|Looted Wagon|Skorcha, 2 big shootas, grot riggers, red paint job, armor plates, reinforced ram|85
||
Total:|2000[/table]

You seem to be a little light on anti-tank weapons. In the 1500-point army you've got only three rokkit launchas, and only four in the 2000-point army. In my experience MOST armies of that size are going to have more vehicles than you can reliably handle. The Shokk Attack Gun is unreliable at best, and the rokkit launchas, due to the Orky lack of BS, are only going to hit one time in three, which means you're going to have to concentrate the fire of three full squads to HIT one vehicle, much less do it any damage. Against stuff like Land Raiders or (from the front) ANY Space Marine main battle tank, you're essentially screwed, barring ungodly levels of lucky die rolls.

The Lootas can attenuate this weakness somewhat if they can get around to the sides or rear of oncoming armor, but frankly it's unlikely they'll survive that long with a 6+ save, using Heavy weapons. Besides, S7 weapons are much better used against heavy infantry than against tanks and the like.

I would suggest, at the very LEAST, concentrating as many rokkit launchas as possible into one squad; that way they're only wasting one entire squad's fire against a vehicle in return for one hit. You also might want to consider driving down the numbers on a couple of your mobs so they can have vehicles armed with more rokkit launchas, as those seem to be the only easily-available AT weapon available to the Orks.

Then again, I don't play Orks (though I occasionally play AGAINST them), so I don't really know if these solutions for an Ork army will work. But I DO know that you need to improve your anti-tank capability.

Zorg

2009-03-12, 01:02 AM

Sorry to interupt, but I am a n00b Orc commander in need of advice on what units I should get.

My army so far:

1 Warboss
5 Nobs
20 Ork boyz
3 deffkoptas
Total point value: 450

I was thinking about getting some gretchin, a big mek, and some vehicles.

Advice, anyone?

One of the best buys is the Ork Battleforce box - it comes with 20 boyz, a Trukk and three bikers. You effectively get the bikes for free, so even if you don't use them it's a good source of bitz.

A couple of boxes of gretchin will get you a good infantry screen (and pretty good close up shooting). A big mek is a good investment, the Kustom Force Field can be very good for a Trukk based army. Put the Mek in one Trukk, and any vehicle within 6" gets a 4+ cover save ,which really compensates for the light armour. Alternatively have him charge with a big (20+) mob of boyz behind a group of Kans or Dreads for some head bashing fun.

Also note that if yo uhave no other fast attack choices, run the Deffcopters as seperate units. As they're jetbikes technically they are still subject to morale tests should one be killed in a single unit of 3. It also gives you more flexability in shooting, being able to spread or concentrate fire at will.

Evil D4 - I agree with Grinner on the lack of AT. Your Nobz really need some Power Klaws (S9 on the charge will wreck most vehicles up pretty good), both in the mobz and one or two in the Nobz Squad.

The Rokit Launcher on the Dread is not too good - it's only BS2, and should really be running to get into HtH asap. If you had a Killer Kan or two rokkits are better on them - or Kustom Mega Blasters as they can ignore 'Gets Hot'. Also even if it's troops it can't capture objectives as it's a vehicle, so having it as a troop isn't really necessary if you have the heavy slots free.

Wraith

2009-03-12, 06:57 AM

Okay, this is impressive. :smalleek:
Are you sure you didn't run over his cat and then break into his house to shoot his puppies in your previous incarnation, or something? :smalltongue:

As it turns out, he was being gimped by his own equipment.

Eldar Farseers have access to a piece of wargear called the Runes of Witnessing, which allow Psychic tests to be made by rolling 3d6 and then dropping the highest scoring dice.

While this made it extremely difficult to roll a Natural 12 on 2d6 (you'd effectively have to roll a 6 on all 3 dice for that to happen), it was suddenly much, much easier to roll a Natural 2 for the test.
I forget the math, but it worked out that I was nearly twice as likely to get a Natural 2 because, whether I passed the test or not, I was still rolling an extra dice to see if the Farseer's head exploded.

As bizarre as it sounds, I have suffered not even half as many Perils of the Warps since I stopped using that piece of equipment, even when using 2 powers per turn by paying for with a Spirit Stone with the points I saved.

My army so far:
1 Warboss
5 Nobs
20 Ork boyz
3 deffkoptas
Total point value: 450

I was thinking about getting some gretchin, a big mek, and some vehicles. Advice, anyone?

I agree with the consensus so far - more Boys! Ork armies look great, when all you can see is a big wave of green running across the table, and it keeps the important parts of your army healthy if you have plenty of bodies between them and the enemy.

If you put them all on Trukks or possibly in a Battlewagon, you'll get them across the field all that much faster, and it's an excellent excuse to use a Big Mek, too!

grinner666

2009-03-12, 09:26 AM

I agree with Grinner on the lack of AT. Your Nobz really need some Power Klaws (S9 on the charge will wreck most vehicles up pretty good), both in the mobz and one or two in the Nobz Squad.

I'd forgotten all about Power Klaws . . . which is funny since power FISTS are the main AT weapon of about half my Space Marine combat teams. Yeah, S8 or 9 against rear armor should duff up most tanks pretty good. :smallsmile:

Now he just needs to figure out sumptin for those darn Land Raider Crusaders and Redeemers.

:smallwink:

Zorg

2009-03-12, 09:39 AM

Had a rather interesting time at my first Apoc game (to celebrate the Stompa release). I took my incomplete Warhound (WiP pics in the models thread), and my best mate took my brother's Baneblade.

It was a pretty crazy mish mash of various Imperial forces vs an evil mix of Necrons, Orks, traitor guard and Tyranids. The 'good' side had three baneblades, a Hellhammer, a land raider half a dozen Russes and hordes of infantry.

The evil side had a Stompa, a Mek Stompa, a Baneblade, a Hellhammer, a Skullhamma, three Russes, a bunch of Chimeras, three monoliths, the Nightbringer, three carnifex, and hordes of boyz and nids. (numbers are pretty rough)

It was pretty chaotic and crazy, but good fun. I almost phased out the entire necron army with one shot from the plasma blasgun (the necrons only had about 25 'necrons'), getting them to within one model of phaseout. I decided to be nice since the 'cron player was quite young so under the duress of the store manager relented from proceeding to mega bolter the last few 'crons (next time I will crush him, see him driven before me and hear the lamentations of his women). It was a very bloody affair, but none of the superheavies were destroyed - the Mek Stompa got down to one structure point, and the skullhamma lost all its guns (but was still rolling), but as far as I know nothing was obliterated.

The funniest part for me was that nobody wanted to shoot the titan - not a single shot was directed at it! They all asked about how tough it was, then decided to shoot at other stuff instead (the good side lost almost all its infantry). The power of psychological warfare in action! I've been threatened by one player (nids), that they'll fix me good when their forgeworld order arrives filled with hierodules and the like. I'll just have to bring my half dozen land raiders along as well then :smallamused:

Zorg

2009-03-12, 09:46 AM

Now he just needs to figure out sumptin for those darn Land Raider Crusaders and Redeemers.

:smallwink:

More Klaws! More I say!

A warboss with klaw and attack squig gets 5 S10 attacks on the charge, backed up by a mob of Nobz with a klaw or two have a pretty good chance.

Tankhunters with hammers can work, but Glory Hogs pretty much means they're a pain to manage effectively (or they need good a transport).

Also depending on your interpretation of the rules a battlewagon with deffrolla inflicts base S10 rams, but it's not very clear if that is the case and is supposedly to be cleared up in a new Ork FAQ.

evil_d4_swarm

2009-03-12, 10:26 AM

@Erloas, Grinner, and Zorg: So... with all of this advice in mind, would this be a better set of lists?

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Ghazghkull Thraka|Standard Ghazghkull Thraka|225
HQ|Big Mek Ordzag|Mek's tools, cybork body, shokk attack gun|125
Elites|6 Lootas|Deffguns|90
Elites|14 Kommandos|Sluggas, choppas, stikkbombs; 1 rokkit launcha; 1 burna|165
|1 Kommando Nob|Slugga, power klaw, stikkbombs|45
Troops|5 Meganobz|Mega armor, stikkbombs|200
Troops|19 Ork Boyz|Sluggas, choppas|114
|1 Nob|Slugga, power klaw|41
Troops|19 Ork Boyz|Sluggas, choppas|114
|1 Nob|Slugga, power klaw|41
Troops|19 Ork Boyz|Sluggas, choppas|114
|1 Nob|Slugga, power klaw|41
Heavy Support|Looted Wagon|Skorcha, 2 big shootas, grot riggers, red paint job, armor plates, reinforced ram|85
Heavy Support|2 Killa Kans|Grotzookas, dreadnought close-combat weapons, grot riggers|100
||
Total:|1500[/table]

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Ghazghkull Thraka|Standard Ghazghkull Thraka|225
HQ|Big Mek Ordzag|Mek's tools, cybork body, shokk attack gun|125
Elites|15 Lootas|Deffguns|225
Elites|14 Kommandos|Sluggas, choppas, stikkbombs; 1 rokkit launcha; 1 burna|165
|1 Kommando Nob|Slugga, power klaw, stikkbombs|45
Troops|9 Meganobz|Mega armor, stikkbombs|360
Troops|19 Ork Boyz|Sluggas, choppas|114
|1 Nob|Slugga, power klaw|41
Troops|19 Ork Boyz|Sluggas, choppas|114
|1 Nob|Slugga, power klaw|41
Troops|19 Ork Boyz|Sluggas, choppas|114
|1 Nob|Slugga, power klaw|41
Troops|15 Gretchin|Blastas|45
|1 Runtherd|Squig hound, grabba stikk, slugga|10
Heavy Support|Looted Wagon|Skorcha, 2 big shootas, grot riggers, red paint job, armor plates, reinforced ram|85
Heavy Support|2 Killa Kans|Grotzookas, dreadnought close-combat weapons, grot riggers|100
Heavy Support|Battlewagon|Red paint job, deff rolla, grot riggers, armor plates, kannon|150
||
Total:|2000[/table]

Zorg

2009-03-12, 10:53 AM

In the 200 point list you don't need grot riggers on the Kans - they have to be a squadron (as you have three choices), and an immobalised result counts as wrecked anyway so it's a bit of a waste. You could then upgrade them to each have rokkit launchas or a kombi skorcha for your mega nobz and a big shoota for the battlewagon (mostly to soak up weapon destroyed results to prevent immobilisation).

Otherwise a solid all-comers list. For my personal taste Ghazghkull is a bit too expensive and slow for me, but the ability to get a 2+ invun save and kill everything on the board by himself is pretty good.

grinner666

2009-03-12, 04:55 PM

He could also use the 10 points he was going to spend on the grot riggers to give his Looted Wagon the 'Ead Case (sorry . . . 'ARD Case :smallwink:) upgrade, always a decent investment. Or give one or both of his possible-transport vehicles stikkbomb chukkas, which might come in handy as well . . . though he'd have to reduce the size of a couple of his squads to make them useful as transports. Hmmmmm . . .

:smallconfused:

*grins* Imagine a mob of Burna Boyz in an open-topped, stikkbomb-chukka equipped Looted Wagon . . . almost makes me wanna sell my White Scars . . .

Just out of curiosity, what'cha gonna use as a base model for yer Looted Wagon?

:smallbiggrin:

Lord Mancow

2009-03-14, 07:46 PM

Zorg, you don't need half a dozen land raiders, just build the monster two thirds of the way down this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=3400020) page.

I think that GW like the Imperium a bit too much considering all the super heavies on that page. Then again, Chaos can take them and I skilled 'cron player might be able to convince their opponent that the void dragon or similar has overtaken the super heavies.

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-14, 08:10 PM

I think that GW like the Imperium a bit too much considering all the super heavies on that page.

Looking over that page, if anything the Imperium has less choices than, say, Chaos. GW has produced models for almost all of the Guard superheavies (excepting the titan and defence laser) and the SMurfs have about the same number of options as everybody else.

Bryn

2009-03-14, 08:17 PM

I think that GW like the Imperium a bit too much...
Oh come on! We don't have nearly enough tanks.
Just the...
Leman Russ
Leman Russ Demolisher
Leman Russ Vanquisher
Leman Russ Exterminator
Leman Russ Annhilator
Leman Russ Conqueror
Leman Russ Executioner
Chimera
Basilisk
Griffon
Bombard
Hellhound
Medusa
Manticore
Hydra
Salamander
Thunderer
Destroyer
Trojan
Atlas
Malcador
Malcador Annhilator
Malcador Defender
Macharius
Macharius Vanquisher
Macharius Vulcan
Valdor
Gorgon
Baneblade
Shadowsword
Stormsword
Stormblade
Stormlord
Doomhammer
Banesword
Banehammer
Centaur
Minotaur
Thankfully, though, the new Codex should add some more tanks and compensate for the huge shortage, at least somewhat :smallamused:

Of course, the above list doesn't include aircraft, walkers or Space Marine vehicles. But we're very much short on those too!

Edit: forgot the minotaur.

Selrahc

2009-03-14, 08:32 PM

Edit: forgot the minotaur.

And the cyclops.

Killersquid

2009-03-15, 12:17 AM

hamishspence

2009-03-15, 05:16 AM

Haven't played it, yet, but have the rules (both books) and so far it seems interesting. A bit like Battlefleet Gothic- manuever is important and vehicles (planes, in this case) tend to be on the move at all times.

Renegade93

2009-03-15, 06:34 AM

All I can say here is to put a heavy weapon squad in the front line with a assault marine squad on wait with frag grenades and your hero ready to take on any heavy weapon enemy squads.....always has and always will work for me.

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-15, 07:29 AM

Illiterate Scribe

2009-03-15, 08:10 AM

Probably not, since you won't have access to the super duper SM ones, nor will you get the +1 attack for BP+CCW.

Zorg

2009-03-15, 09:04 AM

Ok, there isn't a thread devoted to this...but its the 40kverse, so who here knows about Aeronautica Imperialis? Some guys at my local GW are seeing if the Manager there will allow them to play the game at one of the tables, and if it goes through, I will buy the bundle of the 2 rule books and an Ork force. Now, the game, from what I've been described, sounds awesome. Dogfights? FREAKING SWEET! Also, the game is relatively cheap, and you can make an army for about 50-60 dollars, not including the rulebooks, which is about 120 dollars, still cheaper then a WHOLE NEW 40K ARMY!

But to my point. Who here has played it, and what can you tell me about it (worth it? not good? fun as hell)?

There is a very detailed review of the system available here: http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2007/04/27/7281

I've only played a demo game (still waiting for my stuff to arrive), but it is a very simple system to learn - however it is by no means an easy game to master (much like Space Hulk). A friend of mine was telling me of how he had a cunning plan to fly towards and under a flight of Orks, then pull up and behind them, but misjudged his speed and ended up directly infront of them :smalleek: Funnily the Orks then wiffed all their shooting so it wasn't so bad :smallwink:

I'd advise looking over the rules before deciding on which force to fly. A full Ork airforce with all the options needed would run around 60-90 pounds due to being one of the pricier forces (being so numerous), but can be started for less easily. Eldar are the cheapest, and the others have a fair range of prices. There's a thread on the subject on Warseer (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94349). The average game size is around 150-200pts. I'm personally getting Eldar, Orks and Imperial forces, just for some variety :smallbiggrin:

My girlfriend and I went to the local hardware store and picked up some gear to make some Aeronautica Imperialis terrain while I wait for the books etc to arrive:

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/board1.jpg

Technically you shouldn't be allowed to play in a GW - they (at least in Oz) only allow games they sell instore, so no Space Hulk, Epic, BB, Gothic or AI unfortunately (they would if they could, a few of the guys who work there are big fans of the above games). Still, worth asking as he may be able to bend the rules.

grinner666

2009-03-15, 10:03 PM

So, I was flipping through mah Black Templars codex and I was wondering if it's worth it to equip Assault Marines with Storm Shields. :smallconfused:
I had some more questions that I forgot, so I may be posting again soon.

Holy @*$K!!! For THREE POINTS APIECE? Hell, YES!! Do it before they come out with a new Black Templars codex (or declare the old one null and void), and you can't do it for assault squads; it costs FIFTEEN POINTS apiece for a Vanguard Veteran squad to take the same upgrade, though they CAN keep their bolt pistols and dump their chainswords for it. Whoopee . . .

I loathe Storm Shields.

:smallyuk:

Illiterate Scribe

2009-03-16, 02:51 AM

Holy @*$K!!! For THREE POINTS APIECE? Hell, YES!! Do it before they come out with a new Black Templars codex (or declare the old one null and void), and you can't do it for assault squads; it costs FIFTEEN POINTS apiece for a Vanguard Veteran squad to take the same upgrade, though they CAN keep their bolt pistols and dump their chainswords for it. Whoopee . . .

I loathe Storm Shields.

:smallyuk:

Yeah, but remember that they count as one handed weapons, without allowing you +1 attack. Sort of defeats the point of assault marines - if you're charging things which can ignore your armour save, you'll need that bucket of dice attacks-wise.

Erloas

2009-03-16, 08:34 PM

So it doesn't quite have to do with 40k itself, but it doesn't really belong anywhere else. What does everyone use for tables. specifically mobile tables.

Right now our group plays at 2 different libraries and we are likely going to start playing at the community college. The issue is that there really aren't any decent tables at the college. They have folding tables at the libraries but they are too thin to play on a single one and a impractically wide being 2 wide, as well as some of them are very rounded on the edges and don't go side by side without issues.

While I have a great table at home, its only one table, so not really enough for much of a group and I don't have room for another full sized table being up all the time. So I'm trying to find a decent method of making a fairly portable full size table. Looking at what is available no one makes a 4' wide table, a few are 36" but most are 30". So it looks like I'll have to design one myself.

I'm wondering if a set of 4 3'x2' pieces with hinges will work, but I'm not sure if it can be hinged in a way that will work. The hinges could also be a problem if we wanted to just put it on another single table because it won't sit flat and might mess up the underneath table.

Hmm... maybe if we had some underframe to support the top and have it flat on the bottom to protect any table it might be sitting on. Something as simple as some 2x2s with hinges that would sit on the tables with the hinges on the outside rather then underneath.

The other option would be if we had some practical legs to use with the hinged top, but I can't think of much other then something like a saw-horse to use for legs on the folding table. But with a saw-horse then its gets a bit big and impractical to move around much.

So does anyone have any good ideas, or methods they're using now?

grinner666

2009-03-16, 11:35 PM

Yeah, but remember that they count as one handed weapons, without allowing you +1 attack. Sort of defeats the point of assault marines - if you're charging things which can ignore your armour save, you'll need that bucket of dice attacks-wise.

What nonsense. A 3+ Invulnerable save . . . especially for three bloody points . . . overcomes all. And you forget that the Storm Shields are also now good against SHOOTING attacks, which basically means your Assault Marines will be invulnerable to crap like lascannon, missile launcher and battle cannon fire as they approach the enemy . . . always an assault squad's biggest weakness.

Besides, the rules say ANY model may exchange its weapon for a Storm Shield, not all models. Give Storm Shields to half the squad so it can defend against lascannon, meltagun and power weapon attacks and let the rest keep their extra attack, if it means that much to you.

:smalltongue:

Illiterate Scribe

2009-03-17, 01:20 AM

What nonsense. A 3+ Invulnerable save . . . especially for three bloody points . . . overcomes all. And you forget that the Storm Shields are also now good against SHOOTING attacks, which basically means your Assault Marines will be invulnerable to crap like lascannon, missile launcher and battle cannon fire as they approach the enemy . . . always an assault squad's biggest weakness.

Besides, the rules say ANY model may exchange its weapon for a Storm Shield, not all models. Give Storm Shields to half the squad so it can defend against lascannon, meltagun and power weapon attacks and let the rest keep their extra attack, if it means that much to you.

:smalltongue:

Not nonsense. According to the codex, I'm afraid that:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6848/picture1qbg.png

Having an entirely self contained codex cuts both ways.

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-17, 04:06 PM

Unfortunately, Illiterate Scribe is right, otherwise there'd really be no question of throwing in a few to stop plasma and whatnot. :smallfrown:

JMobius

2009-03-18, 06:59 PM

List review time!

1500 pt Annihilation game. I'm marines, versus a friend who plays Dark Eldar. Prior experience suggests I can expect the following:

* He is very proud of the 'mobility' of the Dark Eldar. Favored units seem to be Raiders, Ravagers, Jetbikes, and jump infantry.
* His raiders tend to be heavily tricked out including web expansion stuff, many tend to come with disintegrators, horrorfexes, and some kind of spiked chain. The warrior squads tend to bring more heavy weapons.
* His Archon tends to be ridiculously souped up: Most likely there will be Agonizers, Combat Drugs, Shadowfield, Jetpacks, and a few other upgrades. This thing is probably what I'm most afraid of, because it's more or less a death sentence to anything that gets tangled into assault with it.

The List:

Librarian (Null Zone and Machine Curse), with Terminator Armor and Storm Shield..... 140 pts

Terminator Squad (x6), with Cyclone Missile Launcher..... 270 pts

Assault Terminator Squad (x6), with Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers..... 240 pts

Tactical Marine Squads (x10), with Melta Gun, Heavy Bolter, Drop Pod, and Melta Bombs..... 215 pts

Tactical Marine Squads (x10), with Melta Gun, Heavy Bolter, Drop Pod..... 210 pts

Vanguard Veteran Squad (x10), with Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon...... 235 pts

Assault Squad (x10)....... 190 pts

The basic plan is to try to negate his mobility advantage through extensive use of deep strike. If I can manage a good enough alpha strike with drop pod assault, I'm hoping I have a chance.

Erloas

2009-03-18, 08:21 PM

I would say the list is all wrong for fighting a highly mobile force with a lot of strong weapons.

I'll start by saying I haven't played against Dark Eldar at all, and I haven't even seen them fielded, but I have some idea of what they do.

With a lot of AP2 weapons and CC weapons that are going to eat through armor I'm not sure if units of terminators are a great idea.

Also with full sized units of everything and the average points per unit over 200 means that anything he does get his Archon into combat with is going to be letting him take out more points at a time. While its not as important with KPs rather then VPs, it still means he is taking out more of your army a turn. I could see the point to reduce the potential KPs you have, but each of your drop pods count as transports and are worth KPs as well (at least as far as I'm aware and how we have been playing it here, I don't know of any rule or FAQ stating otherwise) for a total of 10KP, which isn't that limiting.

I would go with plasma weapons, assault cannons, and auto cannons over your choice of meltas and missiles. All of his vehicles are either armor 10 or 11, you don't need melta or str8 to take them out, a larger rate of fire of str6-7 weapons will serve you much better and are also much more useful against non vehicles as well. (My eldar army's heavy weapons are almost exclusively str6 and have no problems taking out vehicles).

The heavy bolters also seem out of place. Since you are talking about mobility, well heavy weapons are exactly the opposite of mobility. Since most of his army has a 5+ save and t3 it also seems like its advantages are mostly wasted.

I disagree with you on the deep striking giving you the advantage, I think it actually is more to his advantage then yours. The point of mobility is that you can get as much of your force into one place at a time to take out targets in a single round. By deep striking almost everything you are guarenteeing that you will only ever have a few units on the field at a time, which plays into his hands. He can use his mobility to wipe out 1-2 of the units that deep strike each turn and then you don't have much left on the field to fire back, you will have more units coming in the next turn, but they are going to be limited in what they can do because they've just deep struke in. You are making it easier for him to single out your units and remove them and greatly limiting the amount of counter-attack you can do. Deep striking is great for closing distance with a target that doesn't want to close, but doesn't do a huge amount to increase your mobility once you are on the field. Also him being highly mobile means its going to be harder to get your deep striking units into a place where they are going to do the most good.

JMobius

2009-03-18, 09:13 PM

Well, goes to show how much I know about these things so far. :smallbiggrin:

evil_d4_swarm

2009-03-18, 09:57 PM

So... I have been collecting a bunch of codexes in order to choose which army to build for a second one... and I have been bouncing ideas around my head for some time now...

Sorry I keep coming to you guys for list critiques, but here's another one (this time it's 'nids)

500 points

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Points
HQ|Hive Tyrant|Synapse creature, the horror, toxin sacs, barbed strangler, twin-linked devourer, toxic miasma|125
Elites|3 Warriors|Toxin sacs, deathspitters|81
Troops|16 Gaunts|Fleshborers, without number|144
Troops|15 Gaunts|Scuttlers. spinefists, without number|150[/table]

1000 points

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Points
HQ|Hive Tyrant|Synapse creature, the horror, toxin sacs, barbed strangler, twin-linked devourer, toxic miasma|125
Elites|6 Warriors|Toxin sacs, deathspitters (4), barbed strangler and extended carapace (1), Venom cannon and extended carapace (1)|183
Troops|16 Gaunts|Fleshborers, without number|144
Troops|16 Gaunts|Scuttlers. spinefists, without number|160
Troops|16 Gaunts|Fleshborers, without number|144
Heavy Support|Zoanthrope|Synapse creature, warp field|45
|Zoanthrope|Synapse creature, warp field|45
Heavy Support|Carnifex|Toxic miasma, 2 barbed strangler, spine banks, enhanced senses (2x)|154[/table]

1500 points

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Points
HQ|Hive Tyrant|Synapse creature, the horror, toxin sacs, barbed strangler, twin-linked devourer, toxic miasma|125
HQ|Hive Tyrant|Synapse creature, the horror, toxin sacs, scything talons (2x), wings, warp field, adrenal glands (+1WS)|186
Elites|6 Warriors|Toxin sacs, deathspitters (4), barbed strangler and extended carapace (1), Venom cannon and extended carapace (1)|183
Troops|16 Gaunts|Fleshborers, without number|144
Troops|16 Gaunts|Scuttlers. spinefists, without number|160
Troops|16 Gaunts|Fleshborers, without number|144
Troops|17 Gaunts|Scuttlers. spinefists, without number|170
Fast Attack|12 Gargoyles|Bio-plasma, fleshborers|144
Heavy Support|Zoanthrope|Synapse creature, warp field|45
|Zoanthrope|Synapse creature, warp field|45
Heavy Support|Carnifex|Toxic miasma, 2 barbed stranglers, spine banks, enhanced senses (2x)|154[/table]

2000 points

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Points
HQ|Hive Tyrant|Synapse creature, the horror, toxin sacs, barbed strangler, twin-linked devourer, toxic miasma|125
HQ|Hive Tyrant|Synapse creature, the horror, toxin sacs, scything talons (2x), wings, warp field, adrenal glands (+1WS)|186
Elites|9 Warriors|Toxin sacs, deathspitters (7), barbed strangler and extended carapace (1), Venom cannon and extended carapace (1)|264
Elites|5 Warriors|Leaping, scything talons (2x), adrenal glands (+1WS), bio-plasma, extended carapaces (2), symbiote rippers (1)
Troops|16 Gaunts|Fleshborers, without number|144
Troops|16 Gaunts|Scuttlers. spinefists, without number|160
Troops|16 Gaunts|Fleshborers, without number|144
Troops|17 Gaunts|Scuttlers. spinefists, without number|170
Fast Attack|15 Gargoyles|Bio-plasma, fleshborers|180
Heavy Support|Zoanthrope|Synapse creature, warp field|45
|Zoanthrope|Synapse creature, warp field|45
Heavy Support|Carnifex|Toxic miasma, 2 barbed stranglers, spine banks, enhanced senses (2x)|154
Heavy Support|Carnifex|Adrenal glands (+1I) (4x), adrenal glands (+1WS) (3x), scything talons (2x) tusked, flesh hooks, tail weapon-mace, extended carapace, bio-plasma, reinforced chitin|201[/table]

grinner666

2009-03-18, 11:42 PM

Not nonsense. According to the codex, I'm afraid that:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6848/picture1qbg.png

Having an entirely self contained codex cuts both ways.

This is the problem with using outmoded rule books, and the reason I suggested that he take his Assault Marines with Storm Shields before Black Templars Assault Squads get nerfed into taking Combat Shields.

We're playing 5E, which means a Storm shield provides a 3+ Invulnerable save. A Storm Shield is a Storm Shield is a Storm Shield. Doesn't matter if what they MEANT to give BT assault squads was a Combat Shield, what they CALLED it now has a 3+ save.

You can't pick and choose which set of rules you're going to use. Either you're using 5E, in which case the Storm Shield provides a 3+ Invulnerable save, or you're not.

Illiterate Scribe

2009-03-19, 02:51 AM

This is the problem with using outmoded rule books, and the reason I suggested that he take his Assault Marines with Storm Shields before Black Templars Assault Squads get nerfed into taking Combat Shields.

We're playing 5E, which means a Storm shield provides a 3+ Invulnerable save. A Storm Shield is a Storm Shield is a Storm Shield. Doesn't matter if what they MEANT to give BT assault squads was a Combat Shield, what they CALLED it now has a 3+ save.

You can't pick and choose which set of rules you're going to use. Either you're using 5E, in which case the Storm Shield provides a 3+ Invulnerable save, or you're not.

But ... that's not the case at all. We're using the rules as they're given in the codex, which is where storm shields are described, as opposed to. Those rules are different between the different books, but if storm shields did give the 3+ save, you can be pretty sure they'd be worth more than three points.

While the attempt to make BT more powerful is admirable, trying to update the codex in this way simply causes the problem to pop up somewhere else.

Storm shields are 4++ in CC in the rules, regardless of what army one's using.

Erloas

2009-03-19, 09:24 AM

Well, goes to show how much I know about these things so far. :smallbiggrin:

Well the thing about mobility is that it means different things against different opponents. Against Tau or Guard mobility means getting up quickly to get into combat to take away their shooting. But against Orks or Tyranids mobility means being able to fire on the unit while being able to move and stay out of combat.

Against Marines mobility means being able to split their units up and throwing enough fire at 1-2 units at a time that they fail enough of those 3+ saves. By deep striking everyone you are doing his job for him by splitting up all of your units.

While Deep Striking might work well against the Tau or Guard, its not going to be nearly as effective against Orks, Tyranids, Eldar, or Dark Eldar (depending on how the Eldar/DE are set up, if they are set up as a gunline then it still works well, but if they are set up for mobility and/or close combat then it doesn't work as well). Some deep striking still has its uses and it can be good to force them to split their forces to deal with the people that deep strike behind them, its not going to work as well to use it for everyone.

Tren

2009-03-19, 11:45 AM

We're playing 5E, which means a Storm shield provides a 3+ Invulnerable save. A Storm Shield is a Storm Shield is a Storm Shield. Doesn't matter if what they MEANT to give BT assault squads was a Combat Shield, what they CALLED it now has a 3+ save.

You can't pick and choose which set of rules you're going to use. Either you're using 5E, in which case the Storm Shield provides a 3+ Invulnerable save, or you're not.

There is no such thing as a "5E" storm shield; there are DA/BT/BA storm shields, C:SM storm shields, and Daemonhunters storm shields. The 5th edition rulebook does not standardize the stats and rules for wargear outside of small list common universal weapons such as powerfists, and the storm shield is not part of that list. The rules for your army's wargear are taken out of your own codex, and those are the rules you play by. If there were ever any question of that the Dark Angels FAQ makes it abundantly clear-- unless you house-rule differently, you play by your own codex.

If you took a Black Templar army to a tournament and tried to play 3++ storm shields they'd tell you sorry, no, go enjoy your preferred enemy, vet skills, and dedicated Landraider Crusader transports. You can't pick and choose which set of rules you're going to use. Either you use the Black Templar codex, and take their outdated storm shield rules along with their other unique rules-- or you play the standard Space Marine codex and use it's benefits and drawbacks. You don't get to cherry pick the best of both codices.

JMobius

2009-03-19, 01:00 PM

Alrighty, lemme try something completely different, then.

So, overuse of deep strike is a bad idea, particularly for an annihilation game. That definitely makes sense to me now. I'd had some vague notions of the problems floating around before, but I was slightly enamored by the idea of a drop pod focused army. While it still sounds cool, I now recognize it as impractical, and it actually makes me wonder if the Drop Pod Assault rule is more a liability than anything else.

So, my current thought is to try and play defensively. Deploy in a defensive position, with lots of guns, and try to force him to have to come through them if he wants to score any points.

The List:

Librarian (Null Zone and Machine Curse), with Terminator Armor, Storm Shield, and Epistolary Upgrade.... 190 pts

Terminator Squad (x10), with 2x Assault Cannons...... 460 pts

2x Tactical Squads (x10), with Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter....... 180 pts each, 360 total

Devastator Squad (x10), with 3x Heavy Bolter and Plasma Cannon....... 240 pts

Sternguard Veteran Squad (x10)...... 250 pts

I know I was advised against the terminators, but I have a specific reason for them: One is that the player in question says that terminators are typically the unit which have given him the most problems against marines. I'm planning on shielding them behind the tac squads, and effectively trying to use them as bait to get him close enough to use my guns. I'm contemplating splitting the terminators into combat squads, with one lead by the sergeant, the other by the librarian.

I'm not sure if Epistolary is really necessary, but I couldn't think of anything else to spend the last 50 or so points on.

onasuma

2009-03-19, 02:22 PM

friendly_gaunt

2009-03-19, 06:37 PM

Hi... I'm new to 40k and I'm attempting to put together a 1000-point list as a plan to buy my models off of. Oh, by the way, I'm going to play tyranids.:smallsmile:

This is what I have in mind so far (thanks to evil_d4_swarm for the table :smallsmile:).

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Points
HQ|6 Warriors|Toxin sacs, enhanced senses, 1 barbed strangler, 1 venom cannon, 4 devourers, 3 extended carapaces|173
Troops|16 Gaunts|Without number, fleshborers|144
Troops|16 Gaunts|Without number, fleshborers|144
Troops|14 Gaunts|Without number, spinefists, scuttlers|140
Troops|14 Gaunts|Without number, spinefists, scuttlers|140
Heavy Support|Carnifex|Enhanced senses, 2 twin-linked devourers|113
Heavy Support|Carnifex|Enhanced senses, 2 barbed stranglers, spine banks, toxic miasma|146
||Total:|1000[/table]

Thanks in advance for any help I recieve.:smallsmile:

PS: How practicle would it be to have all 63 possible warriors in one army? (That would be 1386 points total plus upgrades...)

Cristo Meyers

2009-03-19, 08:28 PM

Got myself my first Cityfight tomorrow at 1250 pts. Right now my list looks like this:

{table=head]|
Chaos Lord|Terminator Armor, Daemon Weapon|145 pts|HQ|
Thousand Sons (8) + Sorcerer|personal icon, Doombolt|259 pts|Troops|
Chaos Terminators (5)|chainfist, combi-weapon, power fist, Reaper Autocannon|205 pts|Elites|
Chaos Space Marines (10)|Champion w/power weapon, plasma gun, missle launcher, Icon of Tzeentch|245 pts|Troops|
Chosen Space Marines (5)|Champion w/power fist, plasma pistol x2, meltagun, autocannon|175 pts|Elite|
Possessed Marines (5)|Champion, Icon of Slaanesh|170 pts|Elite|
Rhino|Havoc Launcher|50 pts
[/table]

I know it's not optimal, but there's only so much I can switch around. Most of the equipment is pretty much set. I figure I've got two strong Troops squads, both with Icons so the Lord and Terminators can non-scatter Deep Strike wherever they want. The Chosen Marines can run interference and the Possessed Marines can raid wherever there's a weak spot. I've had good luck with them with that Icon of Slaanesh.

Options:
I'm thinking about taking out the Rhino and the Chosen Marines and putting in my Land Raider. Part of me thinks a Rhino in a Cityfight is pretty much a deathtrap, but putting in the Land Raider takes out both the Havoc Launcher and a full 5 man squad.

I have other heavy weapons that I can tinker with: 2 Heavy bolters and a Lascannon.

The only other Troops that I have are 8 Khorne Berzerkers (champion with Power fist and Plasma pistol and one more plasma pistol in the squad).

Erloas

2009-03-20, 10:18 AM

@Friendly_gaunt
I don't know the breakdown of the tyranids that well, but I believe the Warriors are simply a bodyguard choice and have to join along with another HQ. Of course I don't think I've seen warriors fielded as HQ choices before. With the carnifexes I'm trying to remember if they are synapse creatures or if they simply ignore that rule. Because with having those 4 units of gaunts and without number its going to be hard to keep them all within synapse range, especially when some start dieing and coming back on your table edge because of without numbers.

The devourers seem like an odd choice for the carnifex because they max out at str6 and the carnifex is a base of str9. Also even being twin linked, at BS2 and 4 shots you aren't going to be hitting a lot (average 2.2 hits) and even though you are going to wound most everything with str6 and living ammunition, being AP- means even lowly guard and orks get their saves. It seems like a lot of points for a model that isn't really that dangerous. Their low BS is why they so often take blast weapons.

Overall I'm not sure how well a straight up shooty tyranid list does. I haven't seen it before, but I have heard of it being done. It just seems to go against what the tyranids were made for. It seems like you would also have problems against most vehicles.

JMobius

2009-03-20, 11:47 AM

Make sure everything breaks down into combat squads. Oh and termies are a bad idea. Most dark eldar sergents come with weapons that ignore saves and auto wound on 4+ when playing marines. Not pretty. Instead, spend the points on a pair of devastator squads with missile launhcers. Turn one, blow up all the transports, turn 2, template the hell out of T3 5+sv ememies.

At least, thats what Id do.

Are the combat squads really a good idea? It's my understanding that they're each worth a KP. Doubling of those he has access to sounds risky.

And sybarites have power weapons? That's... interesting. I'm going to need to check that, because that makes them a lot scarier. I'm not quite sure if he uses them, though; it's been my experience that he runs his warrior squads to bare minimums, just using them to get yet another Raider.

onasuma

2009-03-20, 12:27 PM

sybarites are most commonly equiped with agonisers. These are power weapons that auto wound on 4+ against everything. They may also have punishers for +1 strength and a power weapon.

friendly_gaunt

2009-03-20, 02:25 PM

@Friendly_gaunt
I don't know the breakdown of the tyranids that well, but I believe the Warriors are simply a bodyguard choice and have to join along with another HQ. Of course I don't think I've seen warriors fielded as HQ choices before.

Warriors can be taken as either HQ or elites (or fast attack if winged).

With the carnifexes I'm trying to remember if they are synapse creatures or if they simply ignore that rule. Because with having those 4 units of gaunts and without number its going to be hard to keep them all within synapse range, especially when some start dieing and coming back on your table edge because of without numbers.

Looking back, it turns out that they are not synapse... oops...

The devourers seem like an odd choice for the carnifex because they max out at str6 and the carnifex is a base of str9. Also even being twin linked, at BS2 and 4 shots you aren't going to be hitting a lot (average 2.2 hits) and even though you are going to wound most everything with str6 and living ammunition, being AP- means even lowly guard and orks get their saves. It seems like a lot of points for a model that isn't really that dangerous. Their low BS is why they so often take blast weapons.

Devourers cap at S6? I must have missed that part.

Looking back, my previous list is pretty shoddily constructed. Here is a (hopefully) "better" list:

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Points
HQ|Hive Tyrant|Wings, toxin sacs, the horror, synapse creature, warp blast, 2 sets of scything talons, bio-plasma, adrenal glands (+1WS), adrenal glands (+1I)|190
Troops|17 Gaunts|Without number, scuttlers, fleshborers|187
Troops|17 Gaunts|Without number, scuttlers, fleshborers|187
Troops|16 Gaunts|Without number, scuttlers, adrenal glands (+1WS)|160
Heavy Support|Zoanthrope|Warp field, synapse creature, warp blast|65
|Zoanthrope|Warp field, synapse creature, warp blast|65
Heavy Support|Carnifex|Enhanced senses, 2 barbed stranglers, spine banks, toxic miasma|146
||Total:|1000[/table]

Erloas

2009-03-20, 04:10 PM

Warriors can be taken as either HQ or elites (or fast attack if winged).

I figured they might be like Warlocks in Eldar, they are under the HQ choice and they can be taken as a bodyguard unit for some HQ choices but they aren't an HQ choice themselves, they don't use up their own spot on the force organization but come with another HQ choice

Devourers cap at S6? I must have missed that part.

Looking back, my previous list is pretty shoddily constructed. Here is a (hopefully) "better" list:

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Points
HQ|Hive Tyrant|Wings, toxin sacs, the horror, synapse creature, warp blast, 2 sets of scything talons, bio-plasma, adrenal glands (+1WS), adrenal glands (+1I)|190
Troops|17 Gaunts|Without number, scuttlers, fleshborers|187
Troops|17 Gaunts|Without number, scuttlers, fleshborers|187
Troops|16 Gaunts|Without number, scuttlers, adrenal glands (+1WS)|160
Heavy Support|Zoanthrope|Warp field, synapse creature, warp blast|65
|Zoanthrope|Warp field, synapse creature, warp blast|65
Heavy Support|Carnifex|Enhanced senses, 2 barbed stranglers, spine banks, toxic miasma|146
||Total:|1000[/table]

I know a lot of people put the glands on the tyrants, but I don't know if I see much of a point. It does depend on what you are fighting, but Eldar/Dark Eldar are the only ones that are going to be matching your base I5 anyway, and WS5 is hard to match by most armies too. It really depends on what they cost, but I think in most situations they aren't going to change much.

With the gaunts... I'm trying to remember which rule scuttlers is... I think its the one that gives them the 12" assault move. If that is the case then I don't see the point on the gaunts. I can see the point on hormogaunts, but with gaunts when you are already paying the points to give them a ranged weapon, I don't see the point in paying for an upgrade that makes the use of said weapon non-existent.

With the unit of 16, why don't you just upgrade them to hormogaunts since then they come with WS4 and they get an extra attack. I think you are going for the gaunts for "without numbers" which seems like a good deal, but it also comes with its own drawbacks. For one, each unit that comes back is worth another killpoint, and they aren't that hard to kill, so if you are playing an annihilation game and you are using them very aggressively to take advantage of without numbers you are also giving up more killpoints. With the range on the Zoanthrope you at least have a synapse creature back to help them alone, but if they are dieing and you get spread out your gaunts are pretty much going to just stand around waiting for someone to come tell them what to do.
I would probably use some "without number" units but I would also take some units you expect to get the job done without having to be wiped out in the process.

onasuma

2009-03-20, 06:24 PM

So, I have (more or less, still waiting on a raider) 2000 points of dark eldar, or at least I will have shortly, got 100 points spare either another talos, or assualt scorges (no heavy weapons, just jump infantry). List as is:

Dark Eldar as is:

Archon (60), agoniser (20), Splinter pistol (1), Shadow field (25), combat drugs (25), mask of the damned (15) [146]
6 incubi (150), incubi master (18), combat drugs (25) [193]
Raider (55) [55]

{394}

Drachite (45), agoniser (20), CC weapon (1), combat drugs (25), hell mask (5) [96]
9 wyches (108), wych weapons (9), plasma grenades (9), Succubus (8), hell mask (5), agoniser (25) [164]
Raider (55) [55]

{315}

5 mandrakes (75)

{75}

16 warriors (128), 2 splinter cannons (20), sybarite (6), agoniser (20)

{174}

10 warriors (80), 2 splinter cannons (20), sybarite (6), agoniser (20), combat drugs (25) [151]
Raider [55]

{206}

10 warriors (80), 2 splinter cannons (20), sybarite (6), agoniser (20), combat drugs (25) [151]
Raider [55]

{206}

5 jetbikes (125), succubus (16), agoniser (20), [161]

{161}

5 helions ( 90), succubus (16), agoniser (20) [126]

{126}

Ravager (105), 3 disintergrators (15), night shield (20)

{140}

Talos {100}

Total: 1897

Thorghts?

Illiterate Scribe

2009-03-20, 07:04 PM

It's been a while since I looked over the Deldar codex, onasuma, but mightn't it be niftier to run your archon with animus vitae/punisher/tormentor helm? It's a few fewer points, and a better capability against monstrous creatures, against a better anti-MEQ/anti rank and file capability, and I'm fairly sure I'd want to roll with the latter on the Lord. Also, I'd be a little bit nervous about going about with that little anti-tank - some haywire grenades, combined with your 12" move disembark fleet charge might help alleviate that.

Finally, I'm fairly sure that raider squads can only take one heavy weapon - so that's only 1 splinter cannon for each on. :smallfrown:

onasuma

2009-03-21, 04:37 AM

Actually, a punisher is only better against stuff with T3 or lower. A agoniser auto wounds on 4+ against everything, and allows me to have my extra attack.

I just checked what an anminus vitea does... Possibly more cost effective, but an archon using only 40 points of wargear seems a bit off to me. The norm Ive played against are always up close to the 90 extra points mark and always very effective and combat drugs are almost always a must. I honestly cant think of a better use of 25 points than always at least one bonus to your archons skills, up to at maximum 3 which can alternate around when needed. Anyhow, you need combat drugs to keep up with all these stupidly strong marine hq's there are floating around now days.

However, that combination you have there, it looks pretty sweet. My drachite is gonna nick that (but keep her combat drugs), strength 6 dark eldar! If only I could mount her on a reaver jetbike and still use a punisher.... Strength 7 half naked women are awesome.

On the subject of anti tank, you forget all my raiders have dark lances for free.

And finally, yeah, i noticed the gun thing after i logged off last night. Ill drop 2 and use the points for an aminus vitea for my drachite.

Tren

2009-03-21, 10:23 AM

If only I could mount her on a reaver jetbike and still use a punisher.... Strength 7 half naked women are awesome.

Yes, yes they are. And it is possible actually, the Errata rewrites the whole Reaver wargear entry, allowing you to use two-handed weapons on a bike. I don't have my dex handy to check, but I think in order to fit it under the 100pt limit you'd have to drop the tormentor helm though.

Altima

2009-03-21, 11:46 AM

So, I have (more or less, still waiting on a raider) 2000 points of dark eldar, or at least I will have shortly, got 100 points spare either another talos, or assualt scorges (no heavy weapons, just jump infantry). List as is:

Thorghts?

A sniper squad, both to bolster your troop numbers and/or to hold objectives in your quarter. Alternatively, two WWPs are always fun, but since you don't have wyches, it's not that important.

onasuma

2009-03-21, 05:35 PM

Yes, yes they are. And it is possible actually, the Errata rewrites the whole Reaver wargear entry, allowing you to use two-handed weapons on a bike. I don't have my dex handy to check, but I think in order to fit it under the 100pt limit you'd have to drop the tormentor helm though.

It does? Hell yes! My next purchase is sorted!

Ka'ladun

2009-03-24, 02:51 PM

Having finally gotten all my minis painted, I figure I'll move on the the next round of spending money and bring my space marine army up to 2k points.

I currently have:
100pts: Captain
200pts: 5 Terminators
105pts: 1 Dreadnought with multimelta and ccw
170pts: 10 Marines with missile launcher & flamer
170pts: 10 Marines with missile launcher & flamer
130pts: 5 Assault marines. Sarge has power fist & meltabomb
130pts: Predator tank w/ TL-lascannon & heavy bolter sponsons.

And am thinking of getting:
130pts: Chaplain w/ Terminator Armor
170pts: 10 Marines with missile launcher & flamer
95pts: 5 scouts w/ sniper rifles, 1 heavy bolter, & camo cloaks
70pts: Razorback w/ TL-heavy flamer & dozer blade
210: Devastators w/ 2 lascannons, missile launcher, & heavy bolter
210: Devastators w/ 2 lascannons, missile launcher, & heavy bolter
110: 5 more assault marines w/ 2 flamers

Suggestions/critiques?

onasuma

2009-03-24, 03:36 PM

My personal advise is this:

First off, get the termy chaplain, because, in my opinion, every assualt termy squad needs a chaplain to make it work optimally. Then, 2 or 3 more squads of troops, preferably more basic marines (another 20 should see you fine) and then a squad of combat scouts designed to hold up firing lines of your foes (charge them into any units that have big guns and poor T).

After that, a vindicator would be filling a hole in your army, and a 5 man dev squad with plasma cannons would be amazing. Maybe also some sternguard in a drop pod. Those buggas jumping out and rapid firing is so much fun.

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-24, 03:48 PM

To Ka'ladun:

Well, for the predator I'd reccomend chaning either the sponsons or the turret. Since heavy bolters are no longer defensive weapons, its best to completely dedicate the predator to either tank or infantry hunting.
As it is, it isn't consistent against tanks, but doesn't have enough shots to take down infantry.

For you devestator squads, I assume you're splitting them off into combat squads. If not, do this, so that you're not firing heavy bolters at tanks and lascannons at infantry.
Anyways, it helps having two of the same weapon in the devestator squads, for both range and power consistency. I'd go with two heavy bolters and two lascannons, because right now you're somewhat lacking against masses of infantry.

Why does the razorback have such short range weapons? It doesn't have great armor, so it'll likely be dead before it gets in range.

For the new tactical squad, instead of having the same weapon layout, try two sets of plasma. Right now, you're army doesn't have really anything at all to beat Marines and other similar armies, or MEQs.

You should also consider investing some points in your HQ units. Right now, your captain doesn't even have weapons. If you want to be cheap, just go with a power sword and storm bolter. Same goes for the chaplain.

Finally, why does the Dreadnought have a MM? For a 24" weapon, the assault cannon is much better in my opinion, and for tank hunting, the lascannon is far superior.

Hmm, turned into a much longer post than I thought. . .

Ka'ladun

2009-03-24, 06:37 PM

Onasuma:
I definitely agree with the terminator chaplain, it seems like he'll transform the squad into veritable gods of close combat. Getting 20 more marines seems like a bit too much overkill though, especially since I can already break them into sets of 5 if the mission has objectives.

I'm liking the Vindicator idea too, although I'd have to drop a dev squad or the predator.

Shas'aia Toriia:
The razorback having a twin-linked heavy flamer is because I'll often be playing against orks or tyranids, which it should be able to kill quite well.

As for the dreadnought, it was in the assault on black reach set and came with 0 other options. I also rather like the multimelta, as 8+2d6 with AP1 if you're within 12" of a tank is pretty amazing.

Devastators, I was already planning on making 1 have 4 lascannons and the other 2 HBs and 2 MLs. Just wrote it weird for some reason. That way I've one for killing infantry, one for heavier targets.

As for the Chaplain, he'd have a power weapon and storm bolter. The captain does seem a bit barren though. Perhaps I should remove him and free up the 100 points?

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-24, 08:50 PM

Well yeah, but how do you plan on getting a dreadnought within 12" of a tank though in the first place? Try to spring for lascannons as fast as possible.

Psychotic

2009-03-25, 12:55 AM

Well yeah, but how do you plan on getting a dreadnought within 12" of a tank though in the first place? Try to spring for lascannons as fast as possible.

24" is the range on the multi-melta.

And drop pods are made of delicious win.

Divine Comedy

2009-03-25, 12:56 AM

I agree with the drop pod part, but I didn't see any drop pods in what the poster in question was buying.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-03-25, 01:01 AM

24" is the range on the multi-melta.

Right, but it meltas only at 1/2 range - or 12" :smallsmile:

Divine Comedy

2009-03-25, 01:10 AM

Meltas in general are rather poor tank hunting if you're not using deep strike.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-03-25, 01:23 AM

Meltas in general are rather poor tank hunting if you're not using deep strike.

Or when mounted on bikes! :smallbiggrin:

But I'll agree with you there. Meltaguns are much better at killing heavy infantry than hunting enemy armor. That's why we were surprised to see a multi-melta on a dreadnought.

Ka'ladun

2009-03-25, 01:26 AM

So would a drop pod make the dreadnought massively more useful? I've currently been using him more as a massive roadblock to tie up large groups of enemies in assault.

As for the multi-melta, it came with the assault on black reach set with no other options for the main gun. Might see if I can buy a bit later on to swap it out, but for now, it stays a multi-melta.

Divine Comedy

2009-03-25, 01:35 AM

So would a drop pod make the dreadnought massively more useful? I've currently been using him more as a massive roadblock to tie up large groups of enemies in assault.

Actually no, if your opponent is stupid enough to run into your dread who has a DCCW and Multi-melta by all means let him continue doing so.

However if you play a fast army like Tau or Eldar they'll just stay out of his range until he's taken down by a railgun or bright lance.

Ka'ladun

2009-03-25, 01:43 AM

Fortunately, none of my regular opponents are Tau players and the Eldar player I know mainly focuses on shooting stuff with Dark Reapers. However, even if it's situationally useful for the dreadnought, I can also see it as useful for getting a devastator squad into a good position, especially for just 35 points.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-03-25, 01:46 AM

Divine Comedy

2009-03-25, 01:47 AM

They are useful I'd say, but like you said they are situational. They are pure gold against armies like DE, Tau and Eldar who rely on mobility and getting the first strike. A drop pod robs armies like this of both those traits.

But if your opponent has some Orkz or Tryanids who want to get stuck in with you? You're better off just saving the points.

I'd suggest getting some pods though, I've played many a marine player who lost the game to me due to lack of mobility. Namely every single one I've played.

Ka'ladun

2009-03-25, 01:50 AM

Usually Orks or other Marines. Possibly Necrons in a month or two.

Divine Comedy

2009-03-25, 01:51 AM

Whoo, yeah, ok. Necrons are not going to get stuck in with your dread as they are rather poor in CC (most of them, not all). You're going to need a drop pod.

That and you REALLY don't want them dropping in on your dread with the veil of darkness before he can even get a shot off.

Ka'ladun

2009-03-25, 09:18 PM

Alright, I've thought about my (future) army list again and made some changes based on the recommendations. Also, I'll be dropping the 100 point captain. Again, please critique.
130pts Chaplain w/ Terminator Armor
210pts 10 Tac Marines w/ 1 Plasma Cannon, 1 Power Fist, 1 Plasma Gun
115pts 5 Assault Marines w/ 1 Flamer & 1 Plasma Pistol (they will be joined with the other 5 assault marines)
220pts 5 Devastators w/ 3 Lascannons & 1 Plasma Cannon
160pts 5 Devastators w/ 3 Heavy Bolters & 1 Plasma Cannon
180pts 10 Scouts w/ 1 Heavy Bolter & 10 Camo Cloaks
35pts Drop Pod
45pts Razorback w/ Dozer Blade
The reason for the Razorback instead of a rhino or extra drop pod will be to split the 210pt tac squad into 2 parts, and move the half with the power fist and plasma gun up to the front lines while the one with the plasma cannon obliterates stuff. I think this gives me a good mix of mobility and blasting stuff.

Total 2000pt list is as follows:
Chaplain w/ Terminator Armor, 130pts
5 Terminators, 200pts
Dreadnought w/ Multimelta & CC Weapon, 105pts
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer & Missile Launcher, 170pts
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer & Missile Launcher, 170pts
10 Tactical Marines w/ Power Fist, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon, 210pts
10 Scouts w/ Sniper Rifles, 1 Heavy Bolter, & Camo cloaks, 180pts
10 Assault Marines w/Power Fist, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma Pistol, & 1 Meltabomb, 245pts
Predator Tank w/ TL Lascannon & Heavy Bolter Sponsons, 130pts
5 Devastators w/ 3 Lascannons & 1 Plasma Cannon 220pts
5 Devastators w/ 3 Heavy Bolters & 1 Plasma Cannon 160pts
Drop Pod, 35pts
Razorback w/ Dozer Blade, 45pts

Erloas

2009-03-25, 10:08 PM

The only real issue I see with the list is that it seems to be broken into 2 parts that are pretty much completely independant of each other.

You have 4 units that are going to want to stay back and shoot and never move and avoid close combat, and you have 2 units that are going to advance, one of which is going to want to get in close combat, the other can go either way. While the 4 units that stay back are still marines and not that easy to kill, if you tie them up in close combat then they really aren't going to do much.

You don't have enough close range units to protect your ranged units while also attacking. With the number of high str shots you have its likely to take most transports out before they can close distance, but infiltrators, jetpacks and bikes have a good chance of tieing up some of those units fairly quickly.

Also if you end up in an objective based game (2/3 of the scenarios out of the book) you really only have 2 units that are going to be well suited to moving forward and taking them, and only 1 unit (of only 5 models) that can actually control them. I suppose the scouts can too since they don't have sniper rifles, and the other half of the tac squad can if need be.

Bah... I just realised this is for your "additional troops" rather then your final list. In which case it looks a lot better. In that case things look a lot better, it just depends on how you built any specific list from them.

Divine Comedy

2009-03-25, 11:24 PM

Erloas has the right idea. No matter how you set it up, make sure that every part of your army has a chance to shoot or assault each turn (through mobility or extreme range).

Probably 75% of all the lists I've ever seen has been a poor list because people cut their army in half. They have half their units moving 6" or not at all, while the rest of the army is running into a delightful crossfire on the other side of the board. It's the biggest rookie mistake, and it's game ending against a seasoned player.

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-27, 08:29 PM

Also, one last question is if you would consider throwing in a land raider to transport your chaplain and terminators. It'll likely draw a huge amount of firepower as people scramble to handle the threat of something like that.
Most fire will hopefully bounce off the armor. This means either that shots they would be taking at your main army is shot at the LR, or it hits their lines like. . . well. . a tank. I'd go with a Redeemer or Crusader, so you can shoot more guns on the way in.

Copper8642

2009-03-27, 10:08 PM

grinner666

2009-03-28, 01:16 AM

Total 2000pt list is as follows:
Chaplain w/ Terminator Armor, 130pts
5 Terminators, 200pts
Dreadnought w/ Multimelta & CC Weapon, 105pts
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer & Missile Launcher, 170pts
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer & Missile Launcher, 170pts
10 Tactical Marines w/ Power Fist, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon, 210pts
10 Scouts w/ Sniper Rifles, 1 Heavy Bolter, & Camo cloaks, 180pts
10 Assault Marines w/Power Fist, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma Pistol, & 1 Meltabomb, 245pts
Predator Tank w/ TL Lascannon & Heavy Bolter Sponsons, 130pts
5 Devastators w/ 3 Lascannons & 1 Plasma Cannon 220pts
5 Devastators w/ 3 Heavy Bolters & 1 Plasma Cannon 160pts
Drop Pod, 35pts
Razorback w/ Dozer Blade, 45pts

Hmmmmm . . . Assault Terminators or shooty Terminators?

onasuma

2009-03-28, 03:23 AM

So, today, my nid horde will reach 3000. Yes, I am to purchase..... A barbed heirodule! 12 S10 shots should make a mokery of all those big scary machines with giant death lazers trying to kill my carnefixes.

Anyhow, then I need to fill 300 more points. Most people know my army set up (12 genestealers and everything else is monstrous (6 carns, 2 tryants, scythed heirodule)). So keeping to the theme, how do I fill the last 300 points? Alternatively, coming out of theme a little, flying warriors with devourers look pretty good, they pump out a hell of alot of shots especially when there are 9 in a squad.

friendly_gaunt

2009-03-28, 08:05 AM

Why not get some more carns or hive tyrants? It will be 3000 points, and thus apocalypse, so the restrictions are gone.

Also, I recently learned that, sadly, scuttlers do not allow without number gaunts to outflank...:smallfrown:...So I made another army list.

Can you guys critique it?

500 points:
http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt280/friendly_gaunt/nids-500.jpg

1000 points:
http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt280/friendly_gaunt/nids-1000.jpg

1500 points:
http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt280/friendly_gaunt/nids-1500.jpg

2000 points:
http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt280/friendly_gaunt/nids-2000.jpg

Erloas

2009-03-28, 09:57 AM

Chaplain w/ Terminator Armor, 130pts
5 Terminators, 200pts
Dreadnought w/ Multimelta & CC Weapon, 105pts
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer & Missile Launcher, 170pts
10 Tactical Marines w/ Flamer & Missile Launcher, 170pts
10 Tactical Marines w/ Power Fist, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon, 210pts
10 Scouts w/ Sniper Rifles, 1 Heavy Bolter, & Camo cloaks, 180pts
10 Assault Marines w/Power Fist, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma Pistol, & 1 Meltabomb, 245pts
Predator Tank w/ TL Lascannon & Heavy Bolter Sponsons, 130pts
5 Devastators w/ 3 Lascannons & 1 Plasma Cannon 220pts
5 Devastators w/ 3 Heavy Bolters & 1 Plasma Cannon 160pts
Drop Pod, 35pts
Razorback w/ Dozer Blade, 45pts

As for that particular list, I'm not sure what the chaplain comes with base, but I would expect some upgrades for him. I would also change your 2 tac squads to have the same weapon, give both flamers to one, and both missile launchers to the other. That way if you need to keep them together (because its a kill point mission, or because you want more bodies holding an objective) you can do so without have their weapon use conflict. As for the tac squad with the PF, plamsa gun and plasma cannon, for much the same reason I would switch the plasma cannon out for something else. As it is, for tank or monsterous creature hunting direct fire weapons are better then blast weapons (because of the way blast are half str on vehciles, and its too small to likely be hitting more then 1 model of that type anyway) you also have quite a few other high str long range weapons for those tasks too. And if you end up getting close to them then many of the other weapons will work just as well and you can move with them. It is great for heavy infantry, but you have a lot of other good choices for those as well. So I would switch it with another short range weapon and then you have the choice of also leaving that tac squad together and having no weapons go to waste, or you can still split them.

If you do end up consolidating some units more often (which I don't see as being a big problem, because in many cases you will probably need 10 or more marines to take out any infantry targets anyway, so splitting at 5 doesn't help a whole lot unless you are hunting individual models like tanks) you might instead want to get 2 rhinos to carry the close range units.

Personally I would look at picking up some land speeders and/or bikes to get some more speed into your army. As far as I'm concerend speed is one of the most important aspects of the game. However, the list you have now has its own advantages and I don't like advising people to change lists too drastically. Just something I would keep in mind for the future.

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-28, 10:52 AM

I thought blast templates were only half strength if the vehicle is only partially covered? :smallconfused:

Erloas

2009-03-28, 11:25 AM

I thought blast templates were only half strength if the vehicle is only partially covered? :smallconfused:

Yes, that is correct. I guess I just worded my statement a bit weird. Unless the center of the template is over the vehicle it is half strength. When you consider from the center of a vehicle to off the hull is generally 2-3" and your average drift roll with BS4 is 3" then you will be drifting off fairly often. That is against tanks, against walkers its generally only about 1". So with BS4 a direct fire weapon will hit about 66% of the time. With a template you will hit 33% of the time and scatter the rest, and you have a pretty good chance of scattering off. Of course I haven't ran the numbers yet (and its next to impossible to get very reliable numbers with so many different sized tanks and the fact that scattering to the flank is going to miss more often then scattering front to back, etc) but I would suspect direct fire with BS4 is going to come up a fair amount ahead of drifting blasts. With BS3 it probably gets a lot closer, since your chance to hit direct fire drops to 50% but your chance to drift doesn't change, though the distance is greater when it does.

Myatar_Panwar

2009-03-28, 12:15 PM

My 1500 point chaos list:

HQ: Terminator Lord w/ Bloodfeeder and combi-melta: 150

Elites: Dreadnought w/ Plasma Cannon an CCW: 105

4 Terminators; Heavy Flamer: 125

Troops: 10x Khorne Berserker's; Skull champion w/ Power Fist; Rhino w/ Combi-melta: 290

12x Khorne Berserker's; Skull Champion w/ Powerfist: 292

10x Chaos Space Marines; Flamer; Missile Launcher or Heavy bolter (depending if I am facing MEQ or Horde): 165

Fast Attack: 4x Chaos Bikers; Flamer; Plasma Gun; Biker Lord with Power Weapon; Icon of Khorne: 212

Heavy Support: Vindicator w/ DP: 145

Total: 1484

The basic idea here is that the biker squad will surge forward and summon in the terminator squad and lord to take out key troop/elite targets quickly. The normal chaos marines will be there to hold points and provide ranged support.

Is 8 killpoints too many for a 1500?

Mr._Blinky

2009-03-28, 01:13 PM

I would also change your 2 tac squads to have the same weapon, give both flamers to one, and both missile launchers to the other. That way if you need to keep them together (because its a kill point mission, or because you want more bodies holding an objective) you can do so without have their weapon use conflict.
Can't do that. It's one heavy and one special weapon for tac. squads, so he can have one of each but not two of the same.

Bryn

2009-03-28, 01:39 PM

After messing about with a spreadsheet...
Modelling assumptions: Vehicles can be approximated by an x" radius circle. Which applies only to... well, only walkers, really :smalltongue:

Method:
Made a list of all possible scatter distances.
Calculated whether strength is full, half or zero (miss). Created list.
Multiplied by strength of weapon.
Took average of strength on scatter.
Calculated total average by weighted average of scatter strength (2x) and full strength (1x).

For comparison: direct fire is (1/6)*BS*S where BS is Ballistic Skill and S is strength.

Still:
{table=head]Shooter|Target|Average Strength
Guard Leman Russ Battle Tank|3" radius vehicle|5.333
Guard Leman Russ Battle Tank|1.25" radius vehicle*|4.222
Guard Krak Missile|Any unit|4
Space Wolf Leman Russ**|3" radius vehicle|6
Space Wolf Leman Russ|1.25" radius vehicle|4.963
Space Marine Krak Missile|Any Unit|5.333
Guard plasma cannon|3" radius vehicle|4.323
Guard plasma cannon|1.25" radius vehicle|3.370
Guard plasma gun|Any unit|3.5
Marine plasma cannon|3" radius vehicle|4.991
Marine plasma cannon|1.25" radius vehicle|3.954
Marine plasma gun|Any unit|4.667[/table]

*e.g. Dreadnought
**I think these have BS4. If not, any BS4 S8 2.5"-radius template can go here.

This would suggest that you're better off with templates against big vehicles and direct fire against small vehicles.

:smallwink:

Winterwind

2009-03-28, 01:58 PM

A question I have been wondering about for quite a while...

Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Space Marine Havocs are exactly the same as far as profile and special rules are concerned, the only difference being that CSM are a Troop Choice and can have one special weapon at 5 squad members and one more special or heavy weapon at 10, whereas the Havocs are Support and can have up to four heavy weapons no matter the squad size. However, the prices for these weaponry are drastically different between the two - for example, it costs 35 points to put a lascannon on a Havoc, but only 20 to give it to a standard CSM team. Any idea why the designers decided to make it this way? My guess is that this is because, while in a Havoc team most members will have weapons suited for firing at a heavily armoured target, in a CSM team the fire of almost the entire squad will be useless against the target the lascannon is designed to fight?
(I see in my newly bought Space Marine Codex*1 that this is the same for loyalist marines with their TacSquads and Devastator teams... holy cow, loyalist Space Marines get their heavy weapons practically thrown after them! :smalleek:)

*1 Got myself three new codizes today (Space Marines, Orks and Tyranids). Gotta know the enemy. Feeling happy now. :smallcool:

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-28, 03:11 PM

Yeah, you're right. In a Havoc or Devestator squad, there's gonna' be a lot of heavy weapons that are going to be fired every turn. In a regular squad though, bolter fire is going to be pretty useless. Also, troop choices tend to do a fair bit more moving, so they won't be shooting every turn.

grinner666

2009-03-28, 09:13 PM

A question I have been wondering about for quite a while...

Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Space Marine Havocs are exactly the same as far as profile and special rules are concerned, the only difference being that CSM are a Troop Choice and can have one special weapon at 5 squad members and one more special or heavy weapon at 10, whereas the Havocs are Support and can have up to four heavy weapons no matter the squad size. However, the prices for these weaponry are drastically different between the two - for example, it costs 35 points to put a lascannon on a Havoc, but only 20 to give it to a standard CSM team. Any idea why the designers decided to make it this way?

Concentration of force. A squad with four heavy weapons of any sort is going to be more effective against just about ANYTHING than a squad with only one. Four heavy bolters, for example, will tear up most infantry units, and even be of some (OK, not much, but some) use against light vehicles. Four missile launchers should be able to shred most vehicles AND most infantry squads, and even do a lot of damage every turn to high-T creatures like Talos and Wraithlords; same goes for lascannon, though they're more effective against vehicles and less effective against light infantry. Also they're able to DO that massive damage from much longer distances than are normal infantry squads with a special and a heavy weapon.

My Devastators are one of my favorite squads, now that I'm larnin' how ta usem.

:smallsmile:

Zorg

2009-03-28, 10:37 PM

This may be topic changing and rather basic, but can the Deamon-Hunters and Witch Hunters pretty much be used as one army? I know there are restrictions to how much you can mix either of them with SM and IG, but you can mix the Deamon and Witch Hunters together just about however you want, right?

And has putting Inquisitorial Forces in your SM or IG (or vice versa) ever done anybody here any good? Anybody use them at all?

WH and DH are just as restricted when taking allies of each other as when taking allies of SM or IG. (0-1 HQ, 0-1 Elites etc).

Witch Hunters (or specifically SoB) are quite good on their lonesome, and work well with certain types or armies. They are also part of one of the SM uber power build using Vulkan. On their own a pure SoB force maximises faith points and is more effective in that regard than a force that includes inducted guard or stormtroopers.

Daemon Hunters are worse off though. The best part is their Inquisitors get access to Mystics, who can help the Inq and his retinue target deep striking units when they appear. Put two mystics together and they can nominate a nearby unit to fire (put them next to a LR Demolisher to ruin those teleporting termies day).

However Grey Knights are pretty bad right now. They are expensive and lack any transport save the LR. GK Termies and Power armour can teleport, but then neither can capture objectives (teleporting troops count as fast attack). Also a number of their fancy pants rules do nothing to affect daemons anymore.

They do look totally badass though :smallwink:

Erloas

2009-03-29, 10:33 AM

{table=head]Shooter|Target|Average Strength
Guard Leman Russ Battle Tank|3" radius vehicle|5.333
Guard Leman Russ Battle Tank|1.25" radius vehicle*|4.222
Guard Krak Missile|Any unit|4
Space Wolf Leman Russ**|3" radius vehicle|6
Space Wolf Leman Russ|1.25" radius vehicle|4.963
Space Marine Krak Missile|Any Unit|5.333
Guard plasma cannon|3" radius vehicle|4.323
Guard plasma cannon|1.25" radius vehicle|3.370
Guard plasma gun|Any unit|3.5
Marine plasma cannon|3" radius vehicle|4.991
Marine plasma cannon|1.25" radius vehicle|3.954
Marine plasma gun|Any unit|4.667[/table]

This would suggest that you're better off with templates against big vehicles and direct fire against small vehicles.

:smallwink:

As for vehicles, I would have been a bit easier to use if you had went simply with "hits worth counting" and just ignore it. Because its hard to figure how many hits are really there when you are averaging str7-8 direct hits, str3-4 half hits, and str0 no hits at all. Since for the most part 3-4 is meaningless unless you are hitting something AV10, and even then in most cases its not going to do anything.

Of course the blasts are much more effective against MCs then the are against vehicles because they don't take the half str penalty. So against Nids I could see it as being a much bigger advantage even if most of them aren't any bigger then a walker. In fact walkers and MCs tend to all be on exactly the same size base, if you went by the hull of a walker mine are only 0.9" radius.

With the plasma gun I assume you figured it at single shot range rather then trying to figure in rapid fire. Which makes sense if you are using it as long range support the same as the heavy weapon in comparision, but it comes out better if you are using it more mobiley, which was half of the point I was getting at.

It does look about how I was expecting though, with BS4 the single shot tends to average (between the target types) a bit better, but at BS3 the advantage seems to be more towards the blast.

Against larger targets like land raiders and monoliths, or MCs the blast comes out farther ahead then what is shown here. I assume the 3" estimate is close for most normal vehicles (I only have my eldar skimmers which are pretty much round and tend to be a bit bigger, which is 4.5" wide, 7" long, so averaging 5.75" in diameter, or 2.87" radius, so just less then 3") but being square I'm not sure how most normal tanks average out. Luckily there aren't a lot of things like the Vyper bikes which are so oddly shapped so as to not really give a practical radius to use.

Copper8642

2009-03-29, 11:45 AM

That's disappointing. As I said a few pages ago, I don't play the game yet, but I plan to, and I keep trying to think which faction I want to play as. I think Inquisition is still my top choice, though I guess I'll go Witch Hunters as opposed to Deamon Hunters.

Space Marines I really only like for the Techmarine, but I remember seeing that Space Marines are very popular, and I don't want to be the army that everyone else plays.

Imperial Guard are tempting, I like feel of them. The masses of troops, the couple of "elite" (read: slightly above par) units, and Enginseers give me my Techmarine-like unit. Reliance on vehicles isn't something I'm big on, however, and the lasguns are just... really?

Eldar, don't really feel. Same for Dark Eldar.

Orks... once again, not feeling it.

Chaos, I love the troop variety. 5 different kinds, each with a specialty. Pretty high on the list.

Tau is a team I just like the feel of. The battlesuits being backed up by the Fire Warrior Squads, which pick an enemy apart and then let Kroot rush into the melee. The fact that they have Kroot and Vespid as allies is another sort of gimmick I like. Pretty high.

Inquisition, as I said, is still probably on top. The Inquisitors and their retinue is probably the biggest selling point to me, they look awesome, have a cool feel, and have random abilities (in all games I love the esoteric random abilities of certain units). Inducted Guard let me add another team I like into my force, as well as add some numbers to a generally elite force (maybe not a good idea, but I play games for flavor equally with effectiveness). Grey Knights seemed like a cool "really strong elite unit" to add to a force, but apparently they aren't that elite for their cost. Sisters of Battle seemed like "Space Marine stats without being a Space Marine," which seemed to me like I was basically avoiding playing Space Marines while still being Space Marines. However, they have their differences. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers also seemed like a cool way to round out a force, I may rethink them given your advice, but I still might throw them in. Penitent Engines and Arco-Flagellants also seem really fun (Penitent Engines in particular look awesome).

Anybody here use Inquisition by chance?

Myatar_Panwar

2009-03-29, 12:15 PM

The only thing I know about the inquisition is that like all of their models are metal. Sorry. :smallfrown:

But I hear that Grey Knights may be coming in plastic sometime.

onasuma

2009-03-29, 12:21 PM

Lies. Plastic stormtroopers come out next month.

MorhgorRB

2009-03-29, 12:30 PM

You only need one squad of stormtroopers (targetters, premeasuring), other than that, go with Sisters.
Honestly, the Sisters are a point cheaper, have bolters, +3 save, and faith points. Oh, and Faith points are entirely cheap.

~ : + 1 per sergeant.
+ 1 per (...that rank below cannoness)
+ 2 per cannoness
+ 1 per faith-point character that dies.

Points can be spent on (one point per ability) :
+ 2 Initiative
+ 2 Strength
Invuln instead of normal (Still +2/+3 save)
Shooting has rending
And... There's one or two more that I can't remember. Of course, they only last the one turn (Your's and enemies) before you need to spend another point on them.

Erloas

2009-03-29, 12:52 PM

The whole space marines sell the most and everyone plays them itsn't really all that true... so long as you count all the variations of space marines as different armies. A lot of people buy a lot of space marine models, but that is because they work in a lot of different armies. And since many of the odd space marine codex either don't have their own models or they are all metal, a lot of people buy normal marines and convert them.

As it is, I've played against quite a few of the other armies more then normal space marines.

I'm sure it changes from place to place, but locally quite a few people have at least small SM armies, but most people generally play other armies most of the time. Some of the other space marine types have a fair amount in common with generic space marines, but they also tend to have quite a few differences. Although since many of the sub-SM codex are fairly old their power levels and abilities tend to be all over the place between pointless and really powerful, and tend to be a bit over-point-costed.

Zorg

2009-03-29, 12:57 PM

Space Marines I really only like for the Techmarine, but I remember seeing that Space Marines are very popular, and I don't want to be the army that everyone else plays.

If you only like marines for techmarines, I would highly reccomend against them.

Imperial Guard are tempting, I like feel of them. The masses of troops, the couple of "elite" (read: slightly above par) units, and Enginseers give me my Techmarine-like unit. Reliance on vehicles isn't something I'm big on, however, and the lasguns are just... really?

New codex comes out soon - lasguns will be 'you get how many shots'. Individual guardsmen will likely be very very cheap, and the lasgun isn't bad when you can fire five times as many as your opponents bolters.

Tau is a team I just like the feel of. The battlesuits being backed up by the Fire Warrior Squads, which pick an enemy apart and then let Kroot rush into the melee. The fact that they have Kroot and Vespid as allies is another sort of gimmick I like. Pretty high.

Kroot in melee isn't as great as it seems. Average stats, no armour and pretty expensive points wise. Also their special abilities are no more in 5th ed. Tau overall are still quite a good army however, and kroot are effective, but they are no assault unit.

Inquisition, as I said, is still probably on top. The Inquisitors and their retinue is probably the biggest selling point to me, they look awesome, have a cool feel, and have random abilities (in all games I love the esoteric random abilities of certain units).

Not sure what you mean by random - an Inquisitorial henchman each has an ability that doesn't change.

Inducted Guard let me add another team I like into my force, as well as add some numbers to a generally elite force (maybe not a good idea, but I play games for flavor equally with effectiveness).

The effectiveness of SoB armies is their Acts of Faith. Basically you get faith points which you can spend to do things like make armour saves invulnerable, improve shooting etc. However points are only awarded by SoB units and characters, not guard etc. That said I'm mainly a fan of flavourful lists for friendly games over pure killing power so feel free to ignore any of this - I'm just trying to lay out the game mechanic stuff that the fluff doesn't show :smallsmile:

Grey Knights seemed like a cool "really strong elite unit" to add to a force, but apparently they aren't that elite for their cost.

They can be good as allies - they can really wreck stuff up. However a pure GK army will be at a severe disadvantage in the mobility high game of 5th ed.

Sisters of Battle seemed like "Space Marine stats without being a Space Marine," which seemed to me like I was basically avoiding playing Space Marines while still being Space Marines. However, they have their differences.

If you play SoBs like SMs you will have a hard time winning I'm afraid. They are a close assault army, geared up with flamers and meltas, and with a bag of magic tricks to pull of combo attacks. SoBs are limited that that is really all they can do (well, do really well), marines are the jack of all trades army (along with Eldar) in that you can never be 100% certain what you will be facing. SoBs basically roll up, flame you, then bash your head in (oversimplification, but you get the idea :smallwink: ).

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers also seemed like a cool way to round out a force, I may rethink them given your advice, but I still might throw them in. Penitent Engines and Arco-Flagellants also seem really fun (Penitent Engines in particular look awesome).

Anybody here use Inquisition by chance?

Depending on your opponent, miniature availability (SoBs, as mentioned, are all metal so quite an expensive army to collect), points availability, and theme of your army all affect the makeup. Arco-flagellants suffer from low unit numbers coupled with being unable to ride in vehicles makes them quite vulnerable as they advance. However they are tough and very deadly once they reach enemy lines. Penitent engines are also increadibly deadly in assault, but lose out somewhat in squadrons with the new damage rules.

Zorg

2009-03-29, 01:00 PM

Lies. Plastic stormtroopers come out next month.

Better tell GW that, they don't seem to have got the memo :smallwink:

Listing from Games Workshop of the May releases:

Codex: Imperial Guard
Cadian Command Squad
Cadian Shock Troops
Catachan Command Squad
Catachan Jungle Fighters
Imperial Guard Valkyrie
Imperial Guard Sentinel
Imperial Guard Ratlings
Imperial Guard Primaris Psyker
Imperial Guard Regimental Advisors
Imperial Guard Lord Commissar
Imperial Guard Cadian Battleforce
Imperial Guard Catachan Battleforce

onasuma

2009-03-29, 01:40 PM

Bah, I was sure they were coming... Maybe june?

Copper8642

2009-03-29, 02:06 PM

I've been coming to the Playground for probably over half a year and I'm still surprised at in depth, polite, responses to questions to a relatively new person with rather basic questions. I love this forum.

Ok, thanks for the advice. What I meant by "random," was that each one had a different ability, and while some of them are "+1 WS" or something, others add stranger things. Add them together, that's a good mix of abilities, and a rather rag-tag looking group (a Crusader next to an Acolyte next to a Servitor next to a Familiar). Though maybe I'll use Imperial Guard with Inquisition allies as opposed to Inquisition with Inducted Guard.

Shas aia Toriia

2009-03-29, 02:08 PM

Yeah, I heard stormtroopers are coming in plastic in the second "wave" of releases, hopefully alongside greatcoat guardsmen.

Bryn

2009-03-29, 02:34 PM

I hear the plastic stormtroopers may be coming out with Planetstrike. In any case, Warseer has pictures of a WIP (http://warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51084&d=1232629639) stormtrooper with shotgun.

Stormtroopers are going to be fun with the new codex - AP3 hellguns and all :smallbiggrin:

Greatcoat Guardsmen are a persistent rumour, no idea on when they're released. We already have Krieg/Armageddon/Vostroya/Valhalla, though all those are rather pricey. I'd rather see something other than greatcoats, but they seem to be very popular, so I wouldn't be surprised to see GW make them.

Quoting from Warseer:

Greatcoat Guard
There have been rumours of Greatcoat plastics for some time, but these have been consistently shot down by those “in the know”. Despite this, it seems quite a few GW managers are reporting that plastic Greatcoats are in the pipeline, possibly even as soon as 2nd wave. They will supposedly make Steel Legion, Kreig, and/or Valhallans, which some people believe to be a sign the rumour is untrue, as the look of those regiments would need to be drastically altered to create them all from one kit.

Copper8642

2009-03-29, 02:43 PM

Where do you people get this information about the upcoming codices and the like?

Bryn

2009-03-29, 02:59 PM

Me, I mostly get it from Warseer. I only really visit the rumours section, because the rest of the site seems mostly to contain complaining about stuff, (and some rather nice models here and there).

The Guard rumours all come from this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188818), which provides a very useful summary. :smallwink:

Divine Comedy

2009-03-29, 10:31 PM

The problem is that it's all rumors. I have a unit listing and weapon listing right here, that is supposed to be "Official". I'm not holding my breath on it. I'd have to say the AP3 hellguns simply seems likely though, as stormtroopers need something to be usable.

Erloas

2009-03-29, 10:53 PM

Most of the "rumors" aren't really rumors any more. At least for the guard codex. They have shipped advanced copies of the books to various stores around and people have actually seen it, and most of the rumors have proven to be right.
Which is to be expected from Warseer as they have some people that playtest some verions of the codex (I believe they send out a few different versions to have people playtest before narrowing it down completely) and give hints now and again. They way it happens it almost seems as if GW is slowly feeding information out and most things aren't so much leaks as viral marketing.

One of the local players was saying that the hellgun is gone. But it is being replaced by the hot-shot lasgun, which is a lasgun with a super battery on it. And that is the stormtropper weapon that is str3 AP3. I guess that was the name of the weapon in early editions.

Divine Comedy

2009-03-29, 11:05 PM

While I respect your opinion, that's just the problem with rumors. We don't have a preview codex at our store yet, and I've heard a ton of "official" things.

The stormies are the best example, as I've heard the hot-shot and that they're AP3 all the time. The same thing with the new heavy 20 gun,
I've head AP -, 4, and 3. So as I said I'm not holding my breath until my store gets theirs or someone offers up a PDF of a page or 2 from their stores official preview codex (although that would be a breach of contract with GW).

As far as Warseer goes, they sometimes get interesting hints from the developers. Mostly though I can't stand the belly-aching that goes on over rules there (among other things). 10+ pages of people debating how many attacks Calgar gets.

My disdain for rumors comes partially from the fact that many people site Warseer and their community of elitists as the end-all be-all on everything.
I say this realizing there are probably a few Warseer visitors here (no offense to any of you decent posters there), but if you're not part of the elitists you've seen what I'm talking about.

Erloas

2009-03-29, 11:18 PM

I pretty much only visit Warseer close to the time new books are coming out to see what to expect. Usually by the end the majority of what is there is right.
As for hot-shot lasgun vs hellgun, the expected stats were the same and its really just a matter of name.

There was also a reference sheet from the new codex that was posted on the french GW site for a day or two a month or so back, so with that most weapons were confirmed other then possible changes in name from translation.

As for people there complaining... yeah, thats one of the reasons I stopped visiting Druchii.net too, and that after a while things get repetative. I've noticed that with just about any forum dedicated to something, most of the people just go there to complain about whatever the product is. The same thing is rampant on the Warhammer online forums too. It seems that the only people that visit the forums are there to complain about the game, where as all of the people that enjoy the game spend their time playing it. Happens on D&D boards, it happens on MMO boards, it happens on boards dedicated to any game.

Divine Comedy

2009-03-29, 11:31 PM

I agree the rumors are highly likely, I even have that sheet you're referring to and a working knowledge of french. However I'm a skeptic by nature, stubbornly so.

This is the first 40K tactics thread I've been in (in a while) where I didn't want to bash my head against a wall.

So now to segue into a related topic, what does everyone think of the fact that IG are getting a Valkyrie? It's quite a departure from most of their codex, as by any rumor (or more than that, common sense if you know fluff) it is going to be fast and a transport.

It seems a bit counter-productive to the IG gunline to me (all speculation of course). Other people are hailing it as the new Eldar Falcon, which I am HIGHLY skeptical of.

Erloas

2009-03-29, 11:46 PM

If I remember the rumors right, it is a fast skimmer transport, with the ability to drop off like the Dark Eldar transports can. Given what sort of infantry guard has at their disposal it seems like a good way of talking out one specific target and having the unit decimated after that.

I see it as an option that will bring a lot of potential uses to a guard list, but ultimately will run counter to most guard lists and won't be fielded by many guard players after the novelty has worn off. I could see some lists trying to work them in as a theme with a highly mechinized force. I don't see it as being a "must have" sort of unit, because unlike the eldar, the IG don't have troops that are going to make it that dangerous.
What makes the Falcon and Wave Serpent dangerous isn't the vehicle itself (which are pretty good on their own) but the fact that they are carring Banshees, Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Harliquens, Dire Avengers, or Wraithguard. When IG get infantry that can match them, then its going to be dangerous.

In short, it seems like a good way for IG to take out a single target before loosing a unit of stormtroopers.

Divine Comedy

2009-03-29, 11:53 PM

Hmm yes that's about the same as my opinion. It's going to be tough keeping stormtroopers alive (once they get there) as by all indications their toughness and saves aren't improved from last edition.

Another interesting thing we see from the Ork codex is that they are significantly beefing up special characters. I must say if the rumors are true Sly Marbo should be quite some fun, quite a bit better than his last incarnation. But then I've always liked that character.

Concept art of Sly Marbo
http://blogs.poz.com/shawn/upload/rambo.jpg

Lorn

2009-03-30, 01:12 AM

I must say if the rumors are true Sly Marbo should be quite some fun, quite a bit better than his last incarnation. But then I've always liked that character.
He was already amazing fun - randomly vanishing then appearing anywhere on the board was amazing ;)

Anyway. I've decided that when I get a job I'm going to start a Chaos force, with elements of every Power. Starting at 1000 points then adding 500 point blocks until I feel satisfied that the army is in fact an army. At the moment I don't have many different Powers in there - just a bit of Slaanesh in the Lord and the Raptors. Will be throwing some Emperor's Children in there in one of the 500 point blocks, along with the overall leader of the army and his Terminator bodyguard... and custom-built two storey Land Raider. Of death.

(Oh - that reminds me, does anyone know if there's GW-legal mechanics for vehicle creation out there? The blank Apocalypse datasheets kind of imply it...)

Here's the list for the first 1000 points - would anyone with a greater knowledge of the army than me care to give me some feedback?

HQ
Chaos Lord - 170 points
w/ plasma pistol, Mark of Slaanesh, daemon weapon, jump pack

Troops
10 Chaos Marines - 180
w/ two plasma guns

10 Chaos Marines - 160
w/ two flamers

Fast Attack
10 Raptors - 240
w/ one Aspiring Champion wielding two lightning claws

Heavy Support
Defiler
w/ two close combat weapons

Transports
2 Rhinos - 100
w/ extra armour

Basic plans:

CSM squads mounted in the Rhinos will blitz along the board to attack whichever kind of enemy they specialise against - light vehicles/MEQs or normal infantry. They will move into assault if against weaker troops making use of the BP/CC weapons they come with.

Raptors will support Lord and basically move in to rip the heart out of the enemy, obviously staying out of range of heavy weapons if possible. They'll run in the shooting phase until it's chopping time. To be honest, the Raptors are mostly there as a meatshield and to make up the numbers - using the Slaanesh daemon weapon, the Chaos Lord is going to make a mess of pretty much anything. He may be used to take out high-toughness critters in hand to hand, like Carnifexii.

Defiler will use the battle cannon to destroy enemy heavy weapons/vehicles where possible while moving in for assault - with five attacks, even WS3 is going to hit, and when it hits it will hurt.

Thoughts?