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Aquillion
2009-01-08, 12:27 AM
As you age in D&D, your wisdom increases. Your wisdom influences your spot and listen checks. So... as you get older, your hearing and eyesight get sharper.

Why? For that matter, why are there mental attribute bonuses at all? People don't actually get smarter as they get older, and most of the things wisdom is applied to don't improve. What people do get is more knowledgeable, assuming they're learning somehow -- in other words, they earn XP in the usual manner and eventually get skill points through leveling up.

What's the point of assigning stat bonuses for aging, given that? What were the designers trying to achieve? Is it just to encourage the 'aged spellcaster' stereotype?

Grail
2009-01-08, 12:49 AM
aha. yes, it is a stupid flaw. why wisdom helps you hear and see things is beyond me anyway.

Erk
2009-01-08, 12:59 AM
Mislabelled attribute. "Wisdom" is the name it's had for ages, but it really would better suit a term like "Sense" (as in common, and as in visual and aural). However, it's called wisdom, and everyone knows old people are wise.

Khanderas
2009-01-08, 03:09 AM
When you are older, you are more experienced (not just XP) and as such are better at filtering out what sounds matter / what to listen for.
A kid may not pay attention to the birdcall when he is looking for a band of highwaymen, but an older man knows that birdcall belongs to a nocturnal bird, who only sings that call in the spring and naturally realises he got spotted (a scout imitated the birdcall to send a coded message to other highwaymen in earshot).

Thats the idea, although hearing does get more limited physically by age.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-08, 03:16 AM
Because D&D does not model things like disabilities and diminishing senses. Why can't you be hard-of-hearing or near- or far-sighted (at least without also being a complete lackwit with a negative Wisdom modifier)? Well, there's flaws, but you can't gain them with age. Why doesn't fighting get more difficult as you get hit more and more, and why aren't you permanently disabled inconvenienced after surviving being taken to death's door (-9 hp)?

Thrud
2009-01-08, 03:29 AM
'Coz we have good health insurance and use it to get cool hearing aids that have nifty directional pickups so that we can listen to conversations all the way across the room.

:smallbiggrin:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-01-08, 03:53 AM
Yeah, that's bugged me a little for some time. "Venerable" should only be a positive character building decision from a story/circumstantial standpoint. I'd say removing the age bonus to mental attributes is a reasonable houserule.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-08, 05:00 AM
Because everybody knows older people are wiser? Seriously, D&D is based on that kind of folklore. The wise old man is an archetype.

The reason this happens is the following: in 2E, wisdom had a clear definition, which unfortunately made it rather useless for any class that wasn't a divine caster. So in 3E, they figured that classes shouldn't have such an obvious dump stat, and tacked some extra meanings onto wisdom - in particular, perception.

Note that in 2E, perception fell under either intelligence, or thief skills, or a common house rule for the 7th attribute score. Also note that this change didn't really work, in that in 3E (and 4E) every class still has an obvious dump stat or two.

So that's why, suddenly, clerics are so good at seeing things; and that's why older people are also better at it.

Aquillion
2009-01-08, 09:05 AM
Because D&D does not model things like disabilities and diminishing senses.But it does model diminishing dexterity, constitution, and strength, to a decidedly nontrivial extent -- anyone who depends on any of those stats is going to be completely ineffective (or at least severely nerfed) by the time they hit venerable, unless they have some way to negate the penalties.

Why? Why'd they decide that it should be nearly impossible to play a kickass venerable swordsman? (At least, until much later when feats/melee classes based on other stats came out -- and even then, -6 to all physical is a nasty penalty.)

The Neoclassic
2009-01-08, 11:51 AM
But it does model diminishing dexterity, constitution, and strength, to a decidedly nontrivial extent -- anyone who depends on any of those stats is going to be completely ineffective (or at least severely nerfed) by the time they hit venerable, unless they have some way to negate the penalties.

Yeah, and while you don't see people who are 100 running around in the best of shape, people in their 60s and 70s can stay decently fit- and I'd imagine most adventurers would be getting enough exercise to stay in shape! Honestly, if my players ever got to an older age in the campaign, I probably wouldn't bother with the aging penalties (or bonuses), but that's just me.

hamishspence
2009-01-08, 11:57 AM
it could be a matter of medievalistic flavour- 70 and capble of overhead-lifting 200 pounds might be a bit much.

Most fiction has the Strong Hero lose a bit of power in old age- Druss, Conan, etc. Still stronger than most though.

a level 20 Str 18 fighter who has been maxing his Str (+5) will be Str 17 at age 70. Still pretty hefty.

Burley
2009-01-08, 11:58 AM
Well, the funny thing is that getting old also gives you a better memory. However, increased Intelligence increases your Decipher Script. We all know how much old people love crossword puzzles.

Increased Wisdom is supposed to increase your survival skills, even though old folks always end up moving in with their kids... or into a home. It also is supposed to make them better at their Profession, so, the must have retired cause they got too good. Old people do have better eye sight and hearing, though. Old people can hear that hippity-hop on your iFrog (or whatever they call 'em) and see those collectable t-shirts with the Marxist Propoganda printed on them... from almost a mile away.

An old person, apparently, is a charismatic person. The older you get, the better at lying and intimidating you are. (Forgetting where they leave things is just a clever ploy, cause their too lazy to go and get it themselves...)

MickJay
2009-01-08, 02:10 PM
Yeah, they're just pretending they're forgetting things so that their kids would do shopping and cooking for them, they pretend they can't see or hear well so others would be convinced that if they only lowered their voice a little, the old person won't hear them. And the hearing aids? They just give them power to read your minds. The glasses are just to make them look more frail than they really are. The extra wisdom makes them understand all this, so they start using the stereotypes of old age for their advantage, and they can do it all the better, what with the sharper hearing and eyesight and cunning and all.

Heliomance
2009-01-08, 02:15 PM
When you are older, you are more experienced (not just XP) and as such are better at filtering out what sounds matter / what to listen for.
A kid may not pay attention to the birdcall when he is looking for a band of highwaymen, but an older man knows that birdcall belongs to a nocturnal bird, who only sings that call in the spring and naturally realises he got spotted (a scout imitated the birdcall to send a coded message to other highwaymen in earshot).

Thats the idea, although hearing does get more limited physically by age.

Not unless he has ranks in Knowledge (Nature), he doesn't.

Egiam
2009-01-08, 03:36 PM
There was an OOTS strip on this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html

Tacoma
2009-01-08, 03:51 PM
I think it's a standard attempt at game balance. The misconception is that there is some benefit to being old. There is none.

Studies have shown encouraging results regarding crystalized memory of old folks, but they're still worse at learning and their bodies are breaking down and hardly as effective as they were at 20.

Hard work can let you retain your vigor into old age, but that's what levels represent. You can only stave off the debilitations of aging for so long before you're just hobbling away from a steadily advancing reaper.

That said, a brilliant young Wizard is analogous to a brilliant young scientist. Scientists tend to produce their best stuff during a short period in their early adulthood and then piddle around until they croak. They still do valuable work, but they aren't generally still producing miracles of science (or magic, in this case).

There is no benefit to growing old. Which is why most old people wish they were young again. Excepting the few who are just tired of all the garbage, or whose youths were painful or annoying, everyone would love to tack on an extra decade at least - and a "good" decade, when you're young, not an extra one at the end when your organs are failing.

I'm imagining Conan weakly swinging his sword around with both hands trying not to chop his dialysis bag in half.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-08, 04:16 PM
I'm imagining Conan weakly swinging his sword around with both hands trying not to chop his dialysis bag in half.

Cohen, on the other hand...

Thrud
2009-01-08, 07:24 PM
Cohen, on the other hand...

Aww, now I'm all depressed, seeing as Terry Pratchett probably won't be writing any more books, 'coz of having early onset Alzheimers.

Damn I love those books.

*sniffle*

hamishspence
2009-01-09, 10:03 AM
Nation didn't show any significiant deterioration in quality.

I'm hoping a few more will come out- I Shall Wear Midnight is expected soon.

Fifty is quite reasonable for some drop in Str- most fantasy fiction has the hero get rather creaky around fifty.

the huge drop at seventy might be a bit much. I think some d20 syatems favoured 1 point drop at all categories, instead of 1, 2, 3.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-09, 11:30 AM
Your hearing never improves after you finish growing. However, your ability to discern useful information from sounds keeps improving with experience, and that's what a Listen check represents.

aarondirebear
2009-01-09, 11:39 AM
Quit asking those kinds of accusatory questions and just enjoy the damn game.

metagaia
2009-01-09, 11:48 AM
Since we are on Discword, the older age (and thus higher wisdom score) represents the difference in telling a scream of "Help, he has a bow!" and "I am drunk and got out bed and stepped on a hairbrush!"
(paraphrased, since I can't remember the exact quote)

JaxGaret
2009-01-09, 06:06 PM
+3 to Wisdom represents a +1 or +2 to Listen checks.

Color me underwhelmed by the difference.

Tacoma
2009-01-09, 06:13 PM
Instead of specific age modifiers, they really should have given you a special Age feat.

Child: modifiers.
Young Adult: modifiers.
Adult: modifiers.
Mature: modifiers.
Old: modifiers. Listen / Spot / Search penalties.
Elderly: modifiers. Listen / Spot / Search penalties.

You always have exactly one age feat. Your age feat changes based on your age. Include a table of age percentages based on max age of the race. This way you can figure out the age at which you change feats based only on the max age listed in say the MM or something. Elves would be children for longer than humans, for example.

What do you guys think?

MickJay
2009-01-09, 06:14 PM
Sure it's not much, but it's both counter-intuitive (old people tend to have problems with hearing) and against scientific knowledge (as people grow older, they gradually lose ability to hear high frequency sounds, even if their general hearing remains good). It would be more realistic if an additional effect to the wisdom gain would state "but lose 2 from listen and spot checks".

TengYt
2009-01-09, 06:15 PM
Why do old people get SEXIER (Cha bonuses)?:smalleek:

monty
2009-01-09, 06:21 PM
Why do old people get SEXIER (Cha bonuses)?:smalleek:

Because Charisma isn't all about how attractive you are?

Aquillion
2009-01-09, 06:41 PM
Your hearing never improves after you finish growing. However, your ability to discern useful information from sounds keeps improving with experience, and that's what a Listen check represents.But that is already represented by the points you put in the Listen skill itself. If you're not putting points into it or gaining levels, you are not learning anything, and shouldn't be getting better at hearing.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-09, 06:46 PM
Because Charisma isn't all about how attractive you are?

Exactly. It's the force of one's personality, persuasiveness, self-confidence, etc. Yeah, not necessarily any one of those (yes, if you have high charisma you might still have low self-esteem, I understand), but you get the picture. Not just looks.


Since we are on Discword, the older age (and thus higher wisdom score) represents the difference in telling a scream of "Help, he has a bow!" and "I am drunk and got out bed and stepped on a hairbrush!"
(paraphrased, since I can't remember the exact quote)

Not particularly relevent, but still both true and amusing.

Tacoma
2009-01-09, 06:48 PM
Then obviously we need a d20 system Sexiness statistic.

monty
2009-01-09, 06:49 PM
Then obviously we need a d20 system Sexiness statistic.

If I remember right (don't have the book on me at the moment), BoEF added an Appearance stat.

Tacoma
2009-01-09, 06:51 PM
Naw, that's your capacity to be visible. If you have low Appearance you are effectively hidden. :smallwink:

The Neoclassic
2009-01-09, 06:51 PM
Then obviously we need a d20 system Sexiness statistic.

That's what the seventh attribute, Attractiveness (or was it Appearance?) from the BoEF is for!

EDIT: Whoa, ninja'd. Apparently everyone else thought of that at the same time. :smallwink:

Thrud
2009-01-09, 07:08 PM
1st ed had a comliness attribute that was introduced in Unearthed Arcana (the book that also introduced cantrips the first time around.) If I remember correctly (can't be bothered to dig out my book right now) the attribute had bonuses from having a high charisma (people that smile a lot, etc, seem more attractive) and minuses from low charisma. Elves got a bonus, dwarves got a minus, most other races had little change.

I always liked the attribute. I tended to use it for most of my games. This can lead to interesting mixes of extremely charismatic people who are ugly, or vice versa. Doesn't have much of a game effect, except for making it somewhat easier to have a one night stand if you are in to RPing that sort of thing.

Micorandlin
2009-01-10, 06:45 AM
I love these discussions where people try to bring logic into a fantasy game. Yes, I'm guilty of it too... to many times to count, actually. However, sometimes you've just got to fall back on the ole imagination and just take things for what they're worth.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-10, 07:52 AM
I really hate the aging penalty system as well, so I decided to come up with a different version which has an even chance of messing things up for everyone rather then just warriors in addition to reflecting the fact that people age differently: http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,109.0.html . (I've seen no evidence that supports mental stat gains and using the standard rules, I'd end up with a Str stat of 1 if I survive to be 70.:smalleek:)

MickJay
2009-01-10, 10:52 AM
Maybe introduce an extra limit to maximum stat loss to a % of initial value (never more than 50%, rounded down, of a stat's highest value)?

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-10, 01:47 PM
That still sounds like a lot (especially if the character eats healthily while training everyday).