Green hilts, and V

[Zaruthustran]

So, what's with the prominent placement of Bozzok's green-hilted sword? I can't recall--have we seen any other green hilts besides Roy's ancestral weapon? Or is green just a common hilt color?

Also, since I've been away for a while: what's the consensus on V becoming a lich? Does everyone pretty much agree that that's what's happening?

[Kaytara]

The sword, while green, is rather different from Roy's. So it's probably just a coincidence.

And, if I'm not mistaken, the general consensus on V being a lich is that it's a zany theory and that there's no good reason whatsoever for V to become a lich (he'd get stat bonuses, sure, but also a much slower level progression rate), but that it WOULD explain, for example, how V could take so much damage in the recent battle without being healed.

[cheezewizz2000]

So, what's with the prominent placement of Bozzok's green-hilted sword? I can't recall--have we seen any other green hilts besides Roy's ancestral weapon? Or is green just a common hilt color?

Also, since I've been away for a while: what's the consensus on V becoming a lich? Does everyone pretty much agree that that's what's happening?

No significance. There are many swords in the world and green hilts would be no more and no less common than any other.

I don't think V is going to become a lich. He's shown no indication of procuring a phylactery and nor has he been shown to take any other of the necessary steps. Also, I don't think it's really V's style...

[Zevox]

So, what's with the prominent placement of Bozzok's green-hilted sword? I can't recall--have we seen any other green hilts besides Roy's ancestral weapon? Or is green just a common hilt color?

Also, since I've been away for a while: what's the consensus on V becoming a lich? Does everyone pretty much agree that that's what's happening?
On the former, it's just a hilt color. Odds are incredibly strong it means nothing. And I wouldn't be surprised if we had seen other green-hilted swords before, though at this moment I'm not interested in going back through the archives to check.

On the latter: no! That makes no sense whatsoever. It's one of the most ridiculous theories to come out of these boards, and that's saying something.

Zevox

[Zaruthustran]

Hmm. Could be just a coincidence, I suppose. It's just that I don't recall any other green hilts: they're normally white, blue, dark blue, brown, red, or black. And the placement of the sword sure is prominent.

As for V, I'm surprised by those responses. Seems like V's primary interest in Lichdom would be the 24-hour workday, which--if spent efficiently--would over time more than make up for the increased level requirements. And as a lich, all he'd have is time. :) I figured he was heading towards the classic "spellcaster who worked so hard, he didn't notice he had died and become a lich" scenario. Elsewise, I don't see the point of the heavy emphasis on his deteriorating physical condition, and the repeated comments about how he hadn't slept (or rather, tranced) in months.

[FujinAkari]

As a side comment:

No, V is not becoming a Lich. V can't. Once of his barred schools in Necrmancy.

[Zevox]

Seems like V's primary interest in Lichdom would be the 24-hour workday
V is already forcing herself to have that anyway by not trancing. She's see no reason she'd need to become a Lich to gain that benefit.


which--if spent efficiently--would over time more than make up for the increased level requirements.
No, no it would not, not by a long shot. LA+4 is a huge detriment to leveling up, and an extra 4 hours a day is not going to make up for it. And that's assuming that she is somehow able to prepare spells without the normal requirement of 8 hours of rest. If she isn't, she wouldn't even get this benefit at all.


And as a lich, all he'd have is time. :)
She's already an Elf, for crying out loud! She has centuries of life ahead of her, and no reason to worry about dying of old age anytime resembling soon.


I figured he was heading towards the classic "spellcaster who worked so hard, he didn't notice he had died and become a lich" scenario.
Say what? You can't not notice becoming a Lich. It's an intentional thing. You either deliberately go through the necessary rituals to transform yourself into one, or you don't become one at all. It's not something that just randomly happens by accident or something.


Elsewise, I don't see the point of the heavy emphasis on his deteriorating physical condition, and the repeated comments about how he hadn't slept (or rather, tranced) in months.
Gee, might it have something to do with how she's obsessing over finding Haley and proving that she can overcome whatever obstacle it is that is preventing her from doing so, even to the point where she's ignoring the immense physical and mental strain and, potentially, damage she's doing to herself in the process? That would seem a much simpler, more logical explanation than "she has turned herself into a Lich" to me.

Zevox

[Tempest Fennac]

While I doubt V will become a Lich, couldn't someone else convert him/her if barring Necromancy is a problem?

[hamishspence]

MM 3.5 rules provide no specification as to what spells are needed to make the transformation- just Caster Level 11 and Create Wondrous item.

so, by core rules, you could be a lich even if you had no necromancy spells.

Dragon mag Birth of the Dead did list Create Undead, Magic Jar, and Permanency as needed, but thats not an official requirement.

While V looks similar to Xykon just before transformation, its likely to be coincidence.

[Zevox]

While V looks similar to Xykon just before transformation, its likely to be coincidence.
Particularly when you consider Xykon looked the way he did before his transformation simply due to old age, not for any reason directly related to his Lich transformation.

Zevox

[hamishspence]

Xykon had spots and bags under the eyes but not wrinkles (and that was only after infection with the anti-caster virus). then his skin started cracking.

V's wrinkles look a little like those cracks.

its a bit of a stretch, but its about the only similarity.

[Dixieboy]

V is already forcing herself to have that anyway by not trancing. She's see no reason she'd need to become a Lich to gain that benefit.

No, no it would not, not by a long shot. LA+4 is a huge detriment to leveling up, and an extra 4 hours a day is not going to make up for it. And that's assuming that she is somehow able to prepare spells without the normal requirement of 8 hours of rest. If she isn't, she wouldn't even get this benefit at all.
I've always taken that time as time spent studying, not sleeping or just standing still, which would mean, yes, he would be more productive.

On a side note:
I always found LA to make zero sense, why would someone learn slower by being half dragon, or a lich? :smallannoyed:


Say what? You can't not notice becoming a Lich. It's an intentional thing. You either deliberately go through the necessary rituals to transform yourself into one, or you don't become one at all. It's not something that just randomly happens by accident or something.
Elven liches are created by the gods or elders and while it seems far out that he would just suddenly drop dead and achieve lichdom nothing is keeping him from it :/

Anyway, i don't think lichdom is gonna happen, just saying it's not impossible


No, V is not becoming a Lich. V can't. Once of his barred schools in Necrmancy. Elven

[Zaruthustran]

Even elves die of old age at some point; a lich, with infinite years, will certainly have the opportunity to overcome that level adjustment gap. Especially considering the 24-hour workday (which living biology prevents V perpetually sustaining). Even if we're adhering with 1-3Ed rules and he can only cast X spells per 8 hours, the trance time could be better spent reading, researching, traveling, building, and so on.

As for becoming a lich without noticing: why not? It's been done before in short stories and fantasy, and it's not like OOTS adheres strictly to D&D rules. Still, it's a longshot. More likely that this imp will put the idea in his head, and provide the deus ex machina for pesky rules requirements (like Magic Jar, or whatever).



Gee, might it have something to do with how she's obsessing over finding Haley and proving that she can overcome whatever obstacle it is that is preventing her from doing so, even to the point where she's ignoring the immense physical and mental strain and, potentially, damage she's doing to herself in the process? That would seem a much simpler, more logical explanation than "she has turned herself into a Lich" to me.

To explain away V's recent arc with "Nah, he's just, like, SUPER TIRED because he's obsessed with finding Haley. We're talking SUPER. TIRED." just doesn't cut it. That explanation doesn't begin to justify the repeated references to V's unbiological tendencies (no eating or sleeping), his profoundly increased callousness toward the lives of others, and his dramatic departure from the Order.

Think about it. Rich spent WEEKS slowly changing V's appearance and character, and that investment of time and creative capital is not going to be wasted on a condition that goes away with a good night's sleep.

Look at your theory from a story point of view:
Scenario 1: V works REALLY HARD, and succeeds in contacting Haley. Outcome: hooray, V worked really hard, and deserves a gold star. Now he can have a well-deserved rest, and the OOTS continues as before.
Scenario 2: V works REALLY HARD, and is unable to succeed in contacting Haley. Instead, Haley reunites with V some other way. Outcome: even though he didn't succeed, everyone agrees that V should get a gold star anyway for working really hard. After he has a nap, the OOTS continues as before.

Either scenario is dramatically empty. Not worth the time spent.

No, Rich is a better storyteller than that. This subplot is Going Somewhere.

[David Argall]

Say what? You can't not notice becoming a Lich. It's an intentional thing. You either deliberately go through the necessary rituals to transform yourself into one, or you don't become one at all. It's not something that just randomly happens by accident or something.

Well, that is true by the official rules, and by just about any serious version of them. However we are talking comedy here, and so the idea of a mage overworking himself into accidental lichdom can not be ruled out on rules grounds.

Now it pretty much can be on plot grounds. We already have a lich in the story. What do we really need another one for? And a live V seems to fit the apparent plotline a good deal better.

[hamishspence]

a common trope is for Black Magic of any kind to corrupt the looks- maybe, unknown to the rest of the party, V has been doing this sort of thing to try and find a way of getting the message through.

in 3.5 Heroes of Horror the Taint (corruption) and Taint (depravity) system can produce physical distortion and mental problems in the Tainted being.

Might make more sense than the lich theory.

[Optimystik]

Bozzok is using a bastard sword (hand-and-a-half). Roy is using a greatsword. The hilts are irrelevant; they are clearly different weapons. Even Bozzok couldn't wield a greatsword in one hand.

As for V and lichdom - no.

[Kish]

Look at your theory from a story point of view:
Scenario 1: V works REALLY HARD, and succeeds in contacting Haley. Outcome: hooray, V worked really hard, and deserves a gold star. Now he can have a well-deserved rest, and the OOTS continues as before.
Scenario 2: V works REALLY HARD, and is unable to succeed in contacting Haley. Instead, Haley reunites with V some other way. Outcome: even though he didn't succeed, everyone agrees that V should get a gold star anyway for working really hard. After he has a nap, the OOTS continues as before.

Scenario 3 (or, rather, Scenarios 3 to infinity): Vaarsuvius works REALLY HARD, doesn't trance, starts to dismiss others' lives as irrelevant, loses touch with his/her entire reason for wanting to help Haley in the first place...but doesn't become a lich.

The problem is that you're acting as though it was binary. Either Rich does exactly what you would do, or everything he's been setting up is wasted. Certainly it's going somewhere, but that doesn't mean Vaarsuvius will become a lich.

[kerberos]

Look at your theory from a story point of view:
Scenario 1: V works REALLY HARD, and succeeds in contacting Haley. Outcome: hooray, V worked really hard, and deserves a gold star. Now he can have a well-deserved rest, and the OOTS continues as before.
Scenario 2: V works REALLY HARD, and is unable to succeed in contacting Haley. Instead, Haley reunites with V some other way. Outcome: even though he didn't succeed, everyone agrees that V should get a gold star anyway for working really hard. After he has a nap, the OOTS continues as before.

Either scenario is dramatically empty. Not worth the time spent.

No, Rich is a better storyteller than that. This subplot is Going Somewhere.
I concur. Since there are no other possible results of the subplot whatsoever this conclusively proves that V is turning into a Lich.

[Finwe]

Also, since I've been away for a while: what's the consensus on V becoming a lich? Does everyone pretty much agree that that's what's happening?

No. V has better things to do than waste his time becoming something that doesn't get him any closer towards any of his goals. It would be stupid and foolish. Story-wise, there are other, better, directions, for V to go in.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92448

[Optimystik]

I concur. Since there are no other possible results of the subplot whatsoever this conclusively proves that V is turning into a Lich.

Sarcasm meter off the charts cap'n!

[Dixieboy]

Bozzok is using a bastard sword (hand-and-a-half). Roy is using a greatsword. The hilts are irrelevant; they are clearly different weapons. Even Bozzok couldn't wield a greatsword in one hand.

As for V and lichdom - no.Monkey grip

[hamishspence]

actually Monkey Grip does not allow you to suddenly use two-handed weapons one-handed. Instead, it allows you to use weapons too big for you, in the same fashion as you would as if you we the right size, but with penalty.

Example: No monkey grip- Large longsword can only be used by Medium creature in two hands. And at a penalty.

Monkey Grip- can wield Large Longsword one handed, at a penalty. Still not a feat allowing you to use Greatsword one-handed.

The Epic feat Wield Oversized Weapon, however, grants you the ability to count a weapon as one size "lighter" and would let you do that.

[Optimystik]

Monkey grip

Even if that one was able to help him (which hamish disproved) why would a 17+ rogue take it? Far simpler to conclude they are two different swords with green hilts.

[Zevox]

I've always taken that time as time spent studying, not sleeping or just standing still, which would mean, yes, he would be more productive.
That's not how it works, though. The rules are very explicit that you need 8 hours of rest, which if you sleep or trance for Elves involves doing that. It isn't in addition to normal sleep - the only way you can get away with not sleeping to prepare your spells is if you don't physically require it (which apparently OotS Elves don't).


On a side note:
I always found LA to make zero sense, why would someone learn slower by being half dragon, or a lich? :smallannoyed:
It's a balancing factor. For creatures that are exceptionally more powerful than normal races, it forces them to be treated as effectively higher level for growth purposes. If it weren't like that, someone playing, say, a Half-Dragon Fighter would always be significantly more powerful than someone playing a human fighter in the same group, and with no mechanical drawback.


Elven liches are created by the gods or elders and while it seems far out that he would just suddenly drop dead and achieve lichdom nothing is keeping him from it :/
Er, no. Even Baelnorns - which are a Forgotten Realms-specific race of good-aligned Liches, which we have no indication would be used in the OotS - do not normally have their form given to them by the gods, and still have to go through a ritual to transform (and seriously, you can't tell me you'd buy V being turned into a Baelnorn by her god). It isn't something that happens spontaneously and without the individual's consent.


Even elves die of old age at some point; a lich, with infinite years, will certainly have the opportunity to overcome that level adjustment gap.
But V is very far away from having to worry about death of old age. There's no reason that could possibly be a motivating factor for her to turn herself into a Lich at this point in her life.

And the level adjustment would prove a serious hindrance to her current goal, since one of the ways she is trying to contact Haley is by researching more powerful spells, and a prime way to do that is to level up and gain access to higher spell levels.


Especially considering the 24-hour workday (which living biology prevents V perpetually sustaining).
Not necessarily. V indicated that trancing is not physically required for Elves to live in 599, and since she has gone months without it, it is quite possible she is correct. Though plainly there are negative effects from it, even if death is not one of them.


Even if we're adhering with 1-3Ed rules and he can only cast X spells per 8 hours, the trance time could be better spent reading, researching, traveling, building, and so on.
Huh? Er, those 8 hours of rest she requires to prepare spells by default includes time spent trancing. She can't do anything mentally or physically taxing during that time - she requires "restful calm" even if not actually trancing.


As for becoming a lich without noticing: why not? It's been done before in short stories and fantasy, and it's not like OOTS adheres strictly to D&D rules.
For the first, perhaps, though not in any story I've ever read. But in D&D, it does not happen that way. It is a deliberate process, and the necessity of a phylactery especially is not something that could come about spontaneously.

And it is true that the OotS does not always follow D&D rules to the letter. But usually when it deviates from them it is in minor ways - by finding creative-but-illegal uses for spells (Control Weather), or ignoring minor aspects of turn-by-turn combat (AoOs), for instance, not in any huge lore and mechanical ways such as how a Lich transformation comes about. And in this case, we know how becoming a Lich works in the OotS. Start of Darkness has Xykon's transformation, which comes about as a result of the ritual performed by Redcloak.


More likely that this imp will put the idea in his head, and provide the deus ex machina for pesky rules requirements (like Magic Jar, or whatever)
Bwah? Why on earth would Quarr want V to turn into a Lich? It wouldn't be of any benefit to him. And if V is in such a state that he could convince her to do it, he could already get to do just about anything anyway, so it certainly couldn't be to make her more suggestible for him (hell, if she became a Lich, one way he has to try and influence her, his Suggestion spell-like ability, would cease to work on her).


To explain away V's recent arc with "Nah, he's just, like, SUPER TIRED because he's obsessed with finding Haley. We're talking SUPER. TIRED." just doesn't cut it. That explanation doesn't begin to justify the repeated references to V's unbiological tendencies (no eating or sleeping), his profoundly increased callousness toward the lives of others, and his dramatic departure from the Order.
Did you not read what I posted? V being tired is what is causing her mental and physical decline - her loss of reason and the adverse effects on her appearance. Her decision to stop trancing was brought about by her obsession with finding Haley, not by being tired. The two situations reinforce each other - the worse V's mental state becomes as she goes longer without trancing, the more she obsesses over her goal to the exclusion of all else; the more she does that, the longer she will go without trancing, further worsening her physical and mental state. Yes, this most definitely explains everything that is going on with V.

Also, we have no indication V has not been eating, merely that she has not tranced in some time, likely months.


Think about it. Rich spent WEEKS slowly changing V's appearance and character, and that investment of time and creative capital is not going to be wasted on a condition that goes away with a good night's sleep.
And why not? It isn't as though V is in any situation to suddenly reunite with Haley and have her reasons for not trancing removed. She has separated herself from Durkon and Elan, whom Haley and the others are most likely to meet up with next, given Haley's focus is on contacting Durkon. V herself cannot locate Haley no matter how hard she tries thanks to the Cloister effect, and she has gone off who-knows-where in the meantime. There could be any number of long, drawn-out complications caused by her current condition before she reunites with the Order, if she reunites with them at all. Starting with whatever Quarr intends for her.


No, Rich is a better storyteller than that. This subplot is Going Somewhere.
Yes, it is. But that does not mean V is turning into a Lich. There are many far more logical, far less ridiculous directions for it to go than that.

Zevox

[hamishspence]

i figured some form of "Black Magic" might account for it, if Dramatic Wrinkles are a bit much for just tiredness. But its just a guess, maybe being tired can wreck the skin somewhat as well.

[Kaytara]

i figured some form of "Black Magic" might account for it, if Dramatic Wrinkles are a bit much for just tiredness. But its just a guess, maybe being tired can wreck the skin somewhat as well.

Wrinkles? They look like veins to me, which could easily be from a lack of sleep. There's no reason to assume that V is becoming terribly shriveled and wrinkled, just that he's looking sickly and pale, which Durkon confirms.

[Beans]

I've already done an analysis of Bozz's sword VS the Greenhilt Greatsword, so I'll keep it short:
Bozzok's hilt is a more tanny-lightish-green than what I'll call Greenhilt Green. Also, his blade is narrower and lighter in color.

As for the idea of V-lich, I think not. V is just suffering heavy lack of rest; pale skin, accentuated veins, darkness around the eyes are the result.

[Assassin89]

Just because two swords have green hilts do not mean that the wielder is a member of the Greenhilt family.

V and Lich idea not really plausible.

[MickJay]

Treated purely as a mental exercise: IF V was going to become a lich, how would it have happened?

1. Redcloak loses Xykon and Vaarsuvius happens to be around, either willing to help Redcloak in exchange for more power or for any other reason.
2. ???
3. Lichdom! :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

Treated purely as a mental exercise: IF V was going to become a lich, how would it have happened?

1. Redcloak loses Xykon and Vaarsuvius happens to be around, either willing to help Redcloak in exchange for more power or for any other reason.
2. ???
3. Lichdom! :smallbiggrin:

Two problems: Firstly, V banned necromancy, and secondly, he can't be turned into a lich by someone else; he has to undertake the process himself.

Also, judging that he lacked the knowledge skills to even know about Xykon's phylactery...

[Finwe]

Two problems: Firstly, V banned necromancy, and secondly, he can't be turned into a lich by someone else; he has to undertake the process himself.

Also, judging that he lacked the knowledge skills to even know about Xykon's phylactery...

Fourthly, Redcloak doesn't need a lich, just an arcane spellcaster. Even in the event of RC and V teaming up, it'd still be a waste of time and resources to turn V into a lich.

[Dixieboy]

That's not how it works, though. The rules are very explicit that you need 8 hours of rest, which if you sleep or trance for Elves involves doing that. It isn't in addition to normal sleep - the only way you can get away with not sleeping to prepare your spells is if you don't physically require it (which apparently OotS Elves don't). I don't think it ever says you need to sleep or stand still



It's a balancing factor. For creatures that are exceptionally more powerful than normal races, it forces them to be treated as effectively higher level for growth purposes. If it weren't like that, someone playing, say, a Half-Dragon Fighter would always be significantly more powerful than someone playing a human fighter in the same group, and with no mechanical drawback.
i know as much, still it makes no sense, while a race is more powerful i find no... nonmechanical way to describe it
I can pretty much find a reason for anything else fluff wise, but not LA



Er, no. Even Baelnorns - which are a Forgotten Realms-specific race of good-aligned Liches, which we have no indication would be used in the OotS - do not normally have their form given to them by the gods, and still have to go through a ritual to transform (and seriously, you can't tell me you'd buy V being turned into a Baelnorn by her god). It isn't something that happens spontaneously and without the individual's consent.
If V was offered the powers of a Baelnorn, you think he would refuse? :smalltongue:






Huh? Er, those 8 hours of rest she requires to prepare spells by default includes time spent trancing. She can't do anything mentally or physically taxing during that time - she requires "restful calm" even if not actually trancing.
Maybe he can't do anything taxing, because he is studying, you try studying when people are yelling around you, or while running around killing goblins

[MickJay]

Idea was not to find reasons why it (V a lich) can't happen from the point of view of mechanics/rules, but what would be a believable set of circumstances that could lead to V becoming a lich (that's why the second point was ???). Of course Redcloak doesn't need a lich, but, V might still need to become one for some reason or other (unless barring the necromancy for V was actually a way of telling readers that V can't become a lich, ever - but then again, other rules have been bent). I suggested Redcloack precisely for the reason that he seems to be the only known being capable of aiding in/performing the necessary rituals. Perhaps V will find one of the aspects of being a lich helpful or necessary in his quest for power (and will not care about drawbacks).
Rich has a great way of introducing sudden twists to the plot in a way that makes them believeable, and all the more interesting because they seemed so unlikely before; if he wanted V to become a lich, in the end everyone (or almost everyone) would accept it as a reasonable and fully acceptable development. I do agree that from the perspective of current storyline it would make very little sense for V to want to become a lich, it's just pure speculation about what conditions would have to be met for lichifying of V to make sense.

Sorry for explaining this at length, but I don't really want to convince anyone that V will become a lich, I'm just playing with the idea.

[Zevox]

I don't think it ever says you need to sleep or stand still
The rules say (emphasis mine):

Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
Considering even "conversation" is on the list of things a wizard cannot do while resting to prepare spells, I'd be willing to bet studying and reading are out of the question too.

So for the Lich thing, we have two potential scenarios: either V has to follow these rules, in which case being undead and not having to actually trance benefits her not at all, or she does not, in which case her current situation where she is not trancing anyway gives her the same benefits as if she were a Lich. Yes, with negative effects on her physical and mental well-being, but she is apparently unaware of that. So either way, this cannot be a motivation for her to turn herself into a Lich.


If V was offered the powers of a Baelnorn, you think he would refuse? :smalltongue:
Perhaps. I doubt becoming any undead would particularly appealing to V, especially considering the potential ramifications for her relationship with her spouse. But my point was, do you really think that would actually happen to begin with? I sure don't.

Zevox

[Nerdanel]

I think it makes a lot of sense for V to ALREADY have turned himself into a lich.

On the subject of psychological reasons for V to do that would be he has finally encountered a challenge that simply surpasses him. V has tried every means he could think of, from the obvious to the far-fetched, and is out of ideas on how to find Haley. If only he could be just a little bit smarter...

Well, becoming a lich is a way to become more intelligent. For V, every +2 counts. Also, by the time he makes the decision he's already half-crazy from trance-deprivation, so he fails to consider the long-term effects. The important thing is to (start) get(ting) that +2 right now and that the process ALWAYS WORKS within the allotted time. Random adventuring isn't at all guaranteed to provide a better headband of intellect or equivalent, particularly as V is lacking the strength of full OOTS behind him, which means that V would be reduced to doing underpowered dungeons that have underpowered loot.

Also, saying that the comic has enough in one lich is like saying that Belkar shouldn't have taken barbarian levels because Thog already had them. Vaarsuvius the lich would be very different from Xykon the lich. For one, I think their alignments are different, and V takes himself altogether more seriously.

[Zevox]

I think it makes a lot of sense for V to ALREADY have turned himself into a lich.
I think that makes no more sense than the idea that Quarr will get her to do it. In other words, none whatsoever.


On the subject of psychological reasons for V to do that would be he has finally encountered a challenge that simply surpasses him. V has tried every means he could think of, from the obvious to the far-fetched, and is out of ideas on how to find Haley. If only he could be just a little bit smarter...

Well, becoming a lich is a way to become more intelligent. For V, every +2 counts. Also, by the time he makes the decision he's already half-crazy from trance-deprivation, so he fails to consider the long-term effects. The important thing is to (start) get(ting) that +2 right now and that the process ALWAYS WORKS within the allotted time. Random adventuring isn't at all guaranteed to provide a better headband of intellect or equivalent, particularly as V is lacking the strength of full OOTS behind him, which means that V would be reduced to doing underpowered dungeons that have underpowered loot.
Oh come on now, that's utterly preposterous. In order to become a Lich to begin with, V has to be able to create the required phylactery, which requires Craft Wondrous Item. If she can do that, she can make her own Headbands of Intellect, for much less cost both in gold and xp (even a mighty Headband of Intellect +6 costs less than 1/6 the price of a phylactery to craft), not to mention without all the negative effects becoming a Lich would have on her relationship with everyone around her, or the immense drawback of a level adjustment. V would have to have gone completely insane to even consider becoming a Lich just for the measly +2 intelligence it grants.

In addition, in comic 599, Lien informs Hinjo that she scanned every inch of the ship with Detect Evil looking for Quarr, and came up empty. Granted, that is the comic that V left in, but since Lien came to make her report immediately after V left, V had to have been on the ship for nearly the entire time she was doing the scanning. If she detected no evil, as she seems not to have, that means V was not evil then, which means she was no Lich.

Zevox

[Leonshade]

i know as much, still it makes no sense, while a race is more powerful i find no... nonmechanical way to describe it
I can pretty much find a reason for anything else fluff wise, but not LA


The more powerful you are, the harder it is to get even more powerful.

[Nerdanel]

Oh come on now, that's utterly preposterous. In order to become a Lich to begin with, V has to be able to create the required phylactery, which requires Craft Wondrous Item. If she can do that, she can make her own Headbands of Intellect, for much less cost both in gold and xp (even a mighty Headband of Intellect +6 costs less than 1/6 the price of a phylactery to craft), not to mention without all the negative effects becoming a Lich would have on her relationship with everyone around her, or the immense drawback of a level adjustment. V would have to have gone completely insane to even consider becoming a Lich just for the measly +2 intelligence it grants.

Look at that thing on V's head. Chances are that it's a headband of intellect. (Of items in the core, the one with the closest description is "Circlet of Blasting, Minor" but as a non-cleric V can't create that and he has been never seen using the blasting effect.) If V has Craft Wondrous Item, chances are that he had crafted himself a +6 headband of intellect (the strongest available pre-epic) before the comic had even started. After all, V is driven to pursue magical power and intellect is the basis for that. Similarly, V would have made all other intelligence-enhancing magical items that would have improved his kit as long as he could craft them. And V has had a lot of downtime recently that could have been spent crafting if V thought he needed it. Note that V can't wear more than one magic headband at the same time, and intelligence bonus from his other equipment slots needs to be something other than "enhancement" or otherwise it won't stack with the headband. This is to say that that more crafting can't bring improvement past a certain point until no further improvement can be done until the character becomes innately stronger or gets outside help.

Conclusion: V has already had his kit optimized to the limits of his crafting ability and found loot.

V had to come up with something new to enhance his mental abilities. Remember, every +2 counts.


In addition, in comic 599, Lien informs Hinjo that she scanned every inch of the ship with Detect Evil looking for Quarr, and came up empty. Granted, that is the comic that V left in, but since Lien came to make her report immediately after V left, V had to have been on the ship for nearly the entire time she was doing the scanning. If she detected no evil, as she seems not to have, that means V was not evil then, which means she was no Lich.

Even as a non-ninja, V could have heard the paladins talk about detecting evil and made himself scarce like Therkla before the cone of evil detection got turned on him. There is nothing forcing V to stand still and allow himself to be scanned, particularly as the paladins wouldn't have suspected anything and weren't specifically interested in V's alignment. It is even possible that the paladins told V beforehands what they were about to do so that V could move aside.

[Zeful]

Look at that thing on V's head. Chances are that it's a headband of intellect. (Of items in the core, the one with the closest description is "Circlet of Blasting, Minor" but as a non-cleric V can't create that and he has been never seen using the blasting effect.) If V has Craft Wondrous Item, chances are that he had crafted himself a +6 headband of intellect (the strongest available pre-epic) before the comic had even started.

Except the comic started before V could afford making such an item, so it's impossible for him to have made one then. Now, far more likely.

[Dixieboy]

Perhaps. I doubt becoming any undead would particularly appealing to V, especially considering the potential ramifications for her relationship with her spouse. But my point was, do you really think that would actually happen to begin with? I sure don't.

Zevox

I said i didn't believe it would happen, i just didn't like the total bashing of a theory without a valid reasoning for doing so :smallyuk:

You have however one, so i shall discuss no further, don't want to anger ye :smallbiggrin:

[Zelthax]

Zevox is on a roll, and I have to say, I agree with him.

I don't know much about D&D, but I consider myself a fairly rational person (although that may not be acceptable proof online...), and V's line of thought doesn't progress towards becoming a lich.

Insanity doesn't necessarily equal lichdom.

[Zevox]

Look at that thing on V's head. Chances are that it's a headband of intellect.
Looks more like a tiara or circlet to me. Headbands tend not to be golden. And it needn't be magic, you know, so that V can't make a Circlet of Blasting certainly does not mean that her item there is not a tiara/circlet/whatever.


If V has Craft Wondrous Item, chances are that he had crafted himself a +6 headband of intellect (the strongest available pre-epic) before the comic had even started.
According to the Giant, the group was about level 9 when the comic started. At that level a +6 headband would have taken up nearly half of the total wealth V could be expected to have. Seems rather unlikely, particularly considering she wouldn't have gotten all that wealth at once, but accumulated it gradually over her life, and thereby spent it equally gradually. Besides, we all know by now that no one in the OotS is optimized anyway, so just because it would be the smart thing to do build-wise doesn't mean V did it.


V had to come up with something new to enhance his mental abilities. Remember, every +2 counts.
Every +2 helps, but in V's case, if she already had something as potent as a Headband of Intellect +6, another mere +2 is not going to be the solution to her problem. It would make much more sense for her to conclude that she required access to more powerful spells, and thus to train to a higher level.

Hell, her intelligence modifier actually matters very little for scrying attempts. All it could boost is the save DC of scrying spells, and it's hardly likely Haley would be making those will saves regardless. When dealing with wards against scrying, such as Nondetection, it's caster level that counts, not intelligence.


Even as a non-ninja, V could have heard the paladins talk about detecting evil and made himself scarce like Therkla before the cone of evil detection got turned on him. There is nothing forcing V to stand still and allow himself to be scanned, particularly as the paladins wouldn't have suspected anything and weren't specifically interested in V's alignment. It is even possible that the paladins told V beforehands what they were about to do so that V could move aside.
That last thought is utterly ridiculous - V's presence would in no way hinder their scan, so they'd have no reason to warn her about it. As for the rest, hiding from a Detect spell is not so easy. So long as it passes over the area V is in, it'll pick her up. Even Therkla likely couldn't have avoided it had she been on the boat when the Paladins were searching it - the only reason she avoided it as-is is because Lien was in a hurry to get away from the Orcs and to safety, and couldn't spare the time to look around for her.

Seriously, I simply cannot comprehend what could even make people come up with this ridiculous theory to begin with. At least for the other theories on these boards I can understand how people came to their conclusions to begin with - such as the "Belkar will turn into an undead" crowd. Ludicrous, but at least I can understand how someone fixating on the Oracle's "last breath" comment and ignoring the other evidence may come up with that as an excuse for allowing him to continue with the Order. With the V-Lich thing, the basis seems to be that V is looking ugly and acting irritable lately. And I just cannot see how anyone could make the leap from those facts to conclude that she has turned herself into a Lich. It's just baffling.

Zevox

[Finwe]

I think it makes a lot of sense for V to ALREADY have turned himself into a lich.

On the subject of psychological reasons for V to do that would be he has finally encountered a challenge that simply surpasses him. V has tried every means he could think of, from the obvious to the far-fetched, and is out of ideas on how to find Haley. If only he could be just a little bit smarter...

Well, becoming a lich is a way to become more intelligent. For V, every +2 counts. Also, by the time he makes the decision he's already half-crazy from trance-deprivation, so he fails to consider the long-term effects. The important thing is to (start) get(ting) that +2 right now and that the process ALWAYS WORKS within the allotted time..

Becoming a lich takes 4 levels' worth of XP, and a further 120,000 gp and 4,800 xp. With those resources, V can get:

1. Four levels higher, giving her access to ninth level spells (and that much closer to epic).

2. Cast a Wish spell to know where Haley is.

3. Buy a tome of clear though +4

Becoming a lich for +2 int is NOT an efficient use of resources. It would be like invading Canada for the beaches.

[MickJay]

Seriously, I simply cannot comprehend what could even make people come up with this ridiculous theory to begin with. Zevox

Speculating is fun, and the purpose of this (and other forums) is in part to allow people to express even most ridiculous ideas. Think of brainstorming.

I've mentioned it would be interesting (at least for me) to find such set of circumstances in which idea of V becoming a lich would make (more? any?) sense. As it is now, the idea is so preposterous that it would be a real challenge to do so. Simplest solutions are not always the best, however, and since Rich already made some (seemingly) far-fetched ideas not only believable, but recognized as brilliant, getting 10 new weird theories on the forum per week seems inevitable; plus, most arguments agains V becoming a lich are based on assumption that the process would strictly adhere to all the D&D rules. Does anyone remember Giant's stance on the subject of rules vs story? :smallwink:

[Kaytara]

MickJay, about the rules thing, we've already seen Xykon become a lich and there's no reason to assume the process would deviate in this case, if it were to happen.



I think it makes a lot of sense for V to ALREADY have turned himself into a lich.

On the subject of psychological reasons for V to do that would be he has finally encountered a challenge that simply surpasses him. V has tried every means he could think of, from the obvious to the far-fetched, and is out of ideas on how to find Haley. If only he could be just a little bit smarter...


Psychologically, that doesn't sound like Vaarsuvius. If he can't solve a problem, he's not going to doubt his own intelligence, his opinion of it is far too high of that. He'll doubt his power, instead, especially since he's already seen it fail during the Azure City battle.

As for the headband, don't magical items transform with the person when that person is polymorphed? Yet it remained behind with V's robes and V was only able to keep the Ring of Wizardry.
So the circlet likely wasn't magical then and we've been given no reason to believe that it's changed.

[Nerdanel]

As for the headband, don't magical items transform with the person when that person is polymorphed? Yet it remained behind with V's robes and V was only able to keep the Ring of Wizardry.
So the circlet likely wasn't magical then and we've been given no reason to believe that it's changed.

Look at the description of Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) (the spell cast on V).


All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form.

The text says nothing about magical objects being an exception. There are several different polymorphing spells, and they handle items differently.


Every +2 helps, but in V's case, if she already had something as potent as a Headband of Intellect +6, another mere +2 is not going to be the solution to her problem. It would make much more sense for her to conclude that she required access to more powerful spells, and thus to train to a higher level.

Hell, her intelligence modifier actually matters very little for scrying attempts. All it could boost is the save DC of scrying spells, and it's hardly likely Haley would be making those will saves regardless. When dealing with wards against scrying, such as Nondetection, it's caster level that counts, not intelligence.

V was lacking level-appropriate encounters on the ship. He was getting zero XP from the scrags and the like and had no power to make XP happen unless he wanted to go adventuring alone, with all the risk that that entailed.

Remember also that high int helps V solve the mystery of finding Haley even if save DCs don't matter in the situation. In the OOTS world the int score has more than its mechanical benefit, since it increases the capability to reason. A smart caster will know how to employ their spells efficiently and choose to research spells that have optimal chance of turning out useful to the purpose. If V was just a little bit smarter, he could think of a way of subverting Cloister and locating Haley without breaking through with brute force (like he almost did with the birds). If V was a little smarter he could have taken into account that the edibility of the birds and tried again with a different messenger creature.

[Zevox]

Speculating is fun, and the purpose of this (and other forums) is in part to allow people to express even most ridiculous ideas. Think of brainstorming.
Yes yes, I'm well aware. But that doesn't answer my confusion as to how in all nine hells this theory could have emerged to begin with. There's simply no rational logic behind it, no reason to think it to begin with. At least with the rest of these boards' theories, ridiculous and wrong as they may be, there's some understandable thought process which prompts them into existence.


plus, most arguments agains V becoming a lich are based on assumption that the process would strictly adhere to all the D&D rules. Does anyone remember Giant's stance on the subject of rules vs story? :smallwink:
For the former, hardly. As you'll have noticed, my objections to the whole idea include far more than merely D&D rules. V's motive is also greatly in question, as there seems to be no explanation for why she would want to become a Lich to begin with unless she has gone completely and utterly insane. And in any event, since we do know how Liches come about in the OotS's world thanks to Xykon, we do know the Giant follows at least the basics of D&D lore on the matter.


V was lacking level-appropriate encounters on the ship. He was getting zero XP from the scrags and the like and had no power to make XP happen unless he wanted to go adventuring alone, with all the risk that that entailed.
No level appropriate encounters? What do you call the towering demon she dealt with just before her departure? Not to mention the fact that she actually deliberately avoided anything not directly related to her research to begin with (see the Orc island incident). As we've had pointed out to us numerous times in this strip, adventurers always get level-appropriate encounters tossed at them every now and then. If V was refusing to fight those, well, that was her mistake.


Remember also that high int helps V solve the mystery of finding Haley even if save DCs don't matter in the situation. In the OOTS world the int score has more than its mechanical benefit, since it increases the capability to reason. A smart caster will know how to employ their spells efficiently and choose to research spells that have optimal chance of turning out useful to the purpose. If V was just a little bit smarter, he could think of a way of subverting Cloister and locating Haley without breaking through with brute force (like he almost did with the birds). If V was a little smarter he could have taken into account that the edibility of the birds and tried again with a different messenger creature.
And again, for V to possibly think that this was a rational reason to become a Lich in spite of the myriad drawbacks that would make it an idiotic move on her part, she'd have to have to gone completely insane. Even in her addled state, she does not seem that foolish.

Zevox

[Zelthax]

Nerdanel
Remember also that high int helps V solve the mystery of finding Haley even if save DCs don't matter in the situation. In the OOTS world the int score has more than its mechanical benefit, since it increases the capability to reason. A smart caster will know how to employ their spells efficiently and choose to research spells that have optimal chance of turning out useful to the purpose. If V was just a little bit smarter, he could think of a way of subverting Cloister and locating Haley without breaking through with brute force (like he almost did with the birds). If V was a little smarter he could have taken into account that the edibility of the birds and tried again with a different messenger creature.

I tend to believe that Wisdom has the OOTS benefit of reason, not necessarily Int. We see on multiple occasions that Roy is prone to what most consider logical thinking, whereas V tends to see pure mechanics of thinking. And Roy is assumed to have a higher Wisdom score than V.
So V would be searching not for higher Int, but:



Zevox
Every +2 helps, but in V's case, if she already had something as potent as a Headband of Intellect +6, another mere +2 is not going to be the solution to her problem. It would make much more sense for her to conclude that she required access to more powerful spells, and thus to train to a higher level.

Hell, her intelligence modifier actually matters very little for scrying attempts. All it could boost is the save DC of scrying spells, and it's hardly likely Haley would be making those will saves regardless. When dealing with wards against scrying, such as Nondetection, it's caster level that counts, not intelligence.