[4e] "Basic Ranged Attack"

[Calemyr]

I've been trying to find a good answer for this for a while now and I can't find anything concrete enough to say for certain.

Some classes have at will abilities that are counted as "Basic Ranged Attacks", particularly the Wizard's Magic Missile and the Warlock's Eldritch Blast. What I'd like to know is what good that label is, especially in regards to multiclass.

For instance, I've got a wizard who would like to dual class into ranger. The idea would be that he'd be a master of the Magic Missile and use ranger powers to perform "trick shots", using the Magic Missile as the weapon. It seems reasonable to me (Magic Missile is no stronger than a short bow and lacks the proficiency bonus), but I can't find anywhere in the books to clearly allow this or disallow it.

Does anyone have any clarification on this? Can a basic ranged attack be used in place of a ranged weapon?

[Kurald Galain]

Some classes have at will abilities that are counted as "Basic Ranged Attacks", particularly the Wizard's Magic Missile and the Warlock's Eldritch Blast. What I'd like to know is what good that label is, especially in regards to multiclass.
Not a whole lot, until you get a high enough level Warlord in the party that lets you make additional basic ranged attacks (Commander's strike doesn't do that!) and even then it's iffy.


The idea would be that he'd be a master of the Magic Missile and use ranger powers to perform "trick shots", using the Magic Missile as the weapon.
Trick shots aren't part of 4E. You can do exactly what the power says you can do, no more, no less. And all PHB ranger attack powers specify that you're attacking with a weapon, not with a magic missile.

[fractic]

Not a whole lot, until you get a high enough level Warlord in the party that lets you make additional basic ranged attacks (Commander's strike doesn't do that!) and even then it's iffy.


There are some magic items that boost the damage or hit bonus of ranged basic attacks.

[Calemyr]

That's a logical conclusion to draw, true enough.

My problem is that page 287 lists "Weapon" as a keyword and "Ranged Weapon" as a prerequisite for Basic Ranged Attack, while still stipulating that Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast can be used for it. It really makes it out to look like the two powers can be used effectively as weapons. It does make sense given that they're weapon level powers with no special effects.

When I said "trick shots", I believe I mis-stated the goal. I meant that the ranger powers the wizard would adopt would BE the "trick shots", such as Careful Attack and or Twin Strike. The attack would simply be a magic missile instead of an arrow.

[Inyssius Tor]

That's a logical conclusion to draw, true enough.

My problem is that page 287 lists "Weapon" as a keyword and "Ranged Weapon" as a prerequisite for Basic Ranged Attack, while still stipulating that Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast can be used for it. It really makes it out to look like the two powers can be used effectively as weapons. It does make sense given that they're weapon level powers with no special effects.

But they are not weapons.

You can't Twin Strike with the barbarian's Howling Charge, even though Howling Charge stipulates that you can use it as a basic melee attack. You have to be wielding an actual weapon.

EDIT: Would it break anything? It's not as if Magic Missile is really that awesome or anything; I would allow it, unless you got that wand that makes all your Magic Missiles push one square.

[Oracle_Hunter]

That's a logical conclusion to draw, true enough.

My problem is that page 287 lists "Weapon" as a keyword and "Ranged Weapon" as a prerequisite for Basic Ranged Attack, while still stipulating that Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast can be used for it. It really makes it out to look like the two powers can be used effectively as weapons. It does make sense given that they're weapon level powers with no special effects.

When I said "trick shots", I believe I mis-stated the goal. I meant that the ranger powers the wizard would adopt would BE the "trick shots", such as Careful Attack and or Twin Strike. The attack would simply be a magic missile instead of an arrow.

No, a "Weapon" is a Weapon, not a power. Note that a "Basic Melee Attack" is not a weapon either - it's a power.


Weapon: Many martial powers, as well as several divine powers, can be used only if you’re wielding a weapon. (You can use an unarmed attack as your weapon.) A weapon’s reach or range determines the reach or range of a power it’s used with.

So far, there are a few high-level Warlord powers that use Basic Ranged Attacks, but that's it.

[Inyssius Tor]

Ooh, more metaphor: you can't take Weapon Profiency: Howling Charge, either. You have to take Weapon Proficiency with the weapon you're attacking with. In your case, that would presumably be a wand--which is an implement, not a ranged weapon.

EDIT: Which is why you, um, can't take Weapon Proficiency: Wand. Why isn't there an Implement Proficiency feat at the heroic tier?

[Saph]

Yeah, the 'counts as a basic ranged attack' thing does seem rather pointless. It seems to be designed to make up for the fact that the 'basic attack' powers are worse than their counterparts, but until some support is released for them it doesn't really work.

A Warlord at-will that functioned as Commander's Strike for ranged weapons would be pretty fun. "Ready! Take aim! Fire!"

- Saph

[Kurald Galain]

EDIT: Would it break anything?
Actually, it would, if combined with either those items Fractic mentions, or with the Master Wand.


Yeah, the 'counts as a basic ranged attack' thing does seem rather pointless. It seems to be designed to make up for the fact that the 'basic attack' powers are worse than their counterparts, but until some support is released for them it doesn't really work.
That's a good point. I noticed several other options in the PHB or the AV that don't really do anything yet. For instance, several of those (rather lousy) reagents in AV require that you use them with a power with keyword X and level up to Y, and for a few of those it turns out that there are preciously few of those powers.

[Edge of Dreams]

A power labeled "Basic Ranged Attack" interacts with other abilities and items that specify Basic Ranged Attack.

Some examples:
Magic item (can't remember name) that gives +2 to damage on basic ranged attacks
Magic item that gives +1 to hit with basic ranged attacks
Some Warlord powers

To allow Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast to substitute for the weapon in ranged powers with the weapon keyword would not be "OMGZ BROKEN", but it would be against RAW and have the potential to be more powerful than normal (e.g. that item mentioned above that lets you push 1 with a magic missile).

[mangosta71]

Another key thing to be aware of: attacks of opportunity can only be basic attacks. So a wizard can use MM, or a warlock EB, when something provokes an AoO. Unless I'm forgetting something that bans using ranged attacks for them.

[Inyssius Tor]

You can only take basic melee attacks. Otherwise, archer rangers would be mind-bogglingly broken.

EDIT: As opposed to slightly broken, like they are now.

[TheEmerged]

Yeah, it's pretty clearly stated in the rules for Opportunity Attack (PHB 290) that it "is a basic melee attack", and "you can't make an opportunity attack unless you are able to make a basic melee attack and you can see your enemy."

Personally, I'm betting the text for Magic Missile represents an 'artifact' of a previous version -- something they left in the system during the playtesting process that isn't really dealt with in the current version. That is, it *used* to matter but no longer does.

Any optimists out there will no doubt respond that it might be something that just doesn't matter *yet*... :smallbiggrin:

[Calemyr]

No, you can't do AoO against anything not adjacent to you unless you have the Threatening Reach feature. Rangers thus would not be mindboglingly broken.

Basic Ranged Attack in RAW? That's just Mindboglingly stupid. It's only application is if a high level member of ANOTHER class decides to use one specific ability? And being an artifact could work, but it wasn't mentioned in the erata either.

Why is Barnes & Noble selling a beta version?

[Inyssius Tor]

Basic Ranged Attack in RAW? That's just Mindboglingly stupid. It's only application is if a high level member of ANOTHER class decides to use one specific ability?

Exactly.

Check out wands. There are a number of magic items (three?) that help Magic Missile not suck so much.

[Izmir Stinger]

I did a search of the player's handbook for the phrase "Ranged basic Attack." As far as I can see, the only benifits MM and EB get from being "Ranged Basic Atttacks" are:

1) If a Lvl 25 warlord misses with the Dialy Power "Stir the Hornet's Nest" the Wizard or Warlock get to use this power as a free action.

2) These attacks get an item damage bonus from the magic item "Bracers of the Perfect Shot"

Otherwise, zip.

There are lots of powers and items and feats that reference "ranged attacks" or "ranged attack rolls" but MM and EB would qualify in these cases even without the "counts as a ranged basic attack" statement. Maybe when they were doing initial work on these classes they thought they would be including lots of references to basic attacks, but then as they developed the system they went so crazy with the "powers" system that by the time they were done, PCs would be using a power with almost every action and hardly ever use the basic attacks except for melee AoOs.

[RTGoodman]

Personally, I'm betting the text for Magic Missile represents an 'artifact' of a previous version -- something they left in the system during the playtesting process that isn't really dealt with in the current version. That is, it *used* to matter but no longer does.

That's it exactly - in one of the preview books, one designer mentioned there being a Warlord power tentatively called "Feather Me Yon Oaf" that let allies make ranged basic attacks against a target. I don't think there's anything like that now, so I guess we can only assume there were other similar things in the pre-published version that just didn't make it.


Basic Ranged Attack in RAW? That's just Mindboglingly stupid. It's only application is if a high level member of ANOTHER class decides to use one specific ability? And being an artifact could work, but it wasn't mentioned in the erata either.

That's not the only application. You also HAVE to used a ranged basic attack if you're attacking with a ranged weapon but happen to not have any powers that use ranged weapons. And like I said, originally there were going to be more powers that granted them, and I'm guessing at least some of them were lower level.

[Saph]

I did a search of the player's handbook for the phrase "Ranged basic Attack." As far as I can see, the only benifits MM and EB get from being "Ranged Basic Atttacks" are:

1) If a Lvl 25 warlord misses with the Dialy Power "Stir the Hornet's Nest" the Wizard or Warlock get to use this power as a free action.

2) These attacks get an item damage bonus from the magic item "Bracers of the Perfect Shot"

I had a look at the Magic Missile / Bracers of the Perfect Shot combo. Sadly, even with Bracers of the Perfect Shot, Magic Missile STILL gets outdamaged by Cloud of Daggers (assuming the Wiz starts off with a decent Wisdom and boosts it as he levels up).

- Saph

[Inyssius Tor]

I had a look at the Magic Missile / Bracers of the Perfect Shot combo. Sadly, even with Bracers of the Perfect Shot, Magic Missile STILL gets outdamaged by Cloud of Daggers (assuming the Wiz starts off with a decent Wisdom and boosts it as he levels up).

- Saph

What if you bring wands into it? Is "push one square" better or worse than "double your Wisdom modifier"?

EDIT: Answer? It's not better enough. I didn't actually need to ask that question.

[Kurald Galain]

What if you bring wands into it? Is "push one square" better or worse than "double your Wisdom modifier"?

It's better (especially if you stock up with Gauntlets of the Ram, Ring of Ramming, and/or Rushing Cleats).

The wizard isn't a striker. Having COD do 3 or 4 extra damage isn't worth a magical item.

[Inyssius Tor]

Ooh, didn't think of those. Neat. Now I'm tempted to do that with my next character.

(Oh, hey, and Blood Pulse. Neat.)

[Larrin]

Actually a wizard multiclassing into a ranger can use magic missle to some effect. Ranged basic attacks specifically have few enough powers, but there are several that just say "basic attack" ie you can use either a basic mellee OR ranged attack. Fox's Cunning for example lets you shift one square and then make a basic attack. You could use fox's cunning to shift and then fire a magic missle, getting a bonus to your attack equal to your wisdom modifier. Heck, you should check the wording of the level 5 power "Cobra spitting stance" (from martial power) and see if it can be used with Magic missle (i don't have the book in front of me, but i though it specifies a basic attack).

[Inyssius Tor]

Fox's Cunning specifies "Melee or Ranged weapon," which means it doesn't work here. That's the only power which might.

[Blackfang108]

So far, there are a few high-level Warlord powers that use Basic Ranged Attacks, but that's it.

In Martial Power, there is a level 1 at-will that grants a free "basic attack"

Brash Assault:

Hit: The target may make a basic attack against you with CA. If the target makes this attack, you may grant a free basic attack agains the target with CA to any ally in 5 squares.

There are plenty of other lower level powers in MP that allow ranged basic attacks.

[Larrin]

Sigh, i see your point, by strict application of rules it doesn't work. Still, it would be worth running past a DM to see if he'd allow you to state that since you're replacing the basic attack with something that can count as a basic attack, and since the basic attack is what requires the weapon, you should be able to replace the requirements line with the requirements of magic missle. Many DM's would, many wouldn't.

[Artanis]

Basically, as far as I can tell, the point of making Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast count as basic attacks is just to let those two classes have some sort of basic attack that they have the stats for. Every other class at least has the option of a STR- or DEX-heavy build.



Not a whole lot, until you get a high enough level Warlord in the party that lets you make additional basic ranged attacks (Commander's strike doesn't do that!) and even then it's iffy.
Just to add to this: Warlords start getting powers that can do this at level 7


Fox's Cunning specifies "Melee or Ranged weapon," which means it doesn't work here. That's the only power which might.
A fist is a weapon, so the Wizard is holding a weapon, thus he can use Fox's Cunning. It doesn't say you have to use that weapon, so you can use Magic Missile.

[Dublock]

A fist is a weapon, so the Wizard is holding a weapon, thus he can use Fox's Cunning. It doesn't say you have to use that weapon, so you can use Magic Missile.

Now, I would let my players do that if they don't take advantage of it, but if they tried to use that as justification of it, I would for sure not let them. That is not what RAW meant.

[Artanis]

RAW is RAW, regardless of what RAI is.

The Weapon keyword is defined as such:
"Weapon: Many martial powers, as well as several divine powers, can be used only if you’re wielding a weapon. (You can use an unarmed attack as your weapon.) A weapon’s reach or range determines the reach or range of a power it’s used with."

The Wizard/Ranger is wielding his fist, if nothing else, therefore he is wielding a weapon.


Fox's Cunning says:
"Attack: You can shift 1 square, then make a basic attack against the enemy."


So ranged basic attacks work. Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast are ranged basic attacks. So you can use Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast with Fox's Cunning.

The Wizard has done his 1-square shift and is now using a basic attack. That means he is now using Magic Missile. Magic Missile is not a weapon power, therefore the weapon (unarmed attack in this case) is irrelevant to the range, damage, etc. of the power.


Like it or not, that's RAW. You can tell your players that they can't do that if you like, but that's not RAW. RAW is that Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast work with Fox's Cunning.



And "if they don't take advantage of it"? I fail to see how being able to actually use a power is abuse of it. And that's even before we mention that the player is multiclassing into a class with largely exclusive stat sets.

[Kurald Galain]

Like it or not, that's RAW. You can tell your players that they can't do that if you like, but that's not RAW. RAW is that Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast work with Fox's Cunning.

RAW is that being dead in 3E does not preclude you from taking actions.

Good luck finding any DM anywhere that would adjudicate this in your favor.

[Artanis]

I never said it would be adjudicated in this way, I said that this is what it is. I had hoped to make that clear with:


Like it or not, that's RAW. You can tell your players that they can't do that if you like, but that's not RAW. RAW is that Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast work with Fox's Cunning.

Whether or not somebody will actually use it doesn't change that the RAW is RAW. Sticking somebody's head in a bucket to heal them is idiotic and will never be allowed, but it's still RAW.

And that is all that I said. Period.

[Oracle_Hunter]

A fist is a weapon, so the Wizard is holding a weapon, thus he can use Fox's Cunning. It doesn't say you have to use that weapon, so you can use Magic Missile.

FAQ'd (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396)


Wielding means you must be using that weapon in the attack. Merely holding it while you attack with another weapon isn’t enough to qualify for any bonuses that result.

Nice try though. :smalltongue:

[Artanis]

Then it appears we're both right...and we're both wrong. Fox's Cunning explicitly requires you to use a weapon as part of the attack, meaning no Magic Missile. However, Magic Missile explicitly allows you not to use a weapon. They both trump each other.

[Calemyr]

Screw it. I'm ruling they count as weapons. We're not playing a RAW game anyway, I was just wondering if there's an official clarification. Without it, I'll do what I think is cooler, as long as it doesn't shatter the balance.

[brucethomas]

FAQ'd (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396)



Nice try though. :smalltongue:

These are rules specific to wielding a weapon, keyword wielding. This rule isn't defining what a weapon is, only specific rules about weapon usage with the rogue in particular.

[MeeposFire]

Holy thread necromancy batman!

I guess you could use a staff with magic missile. Staff is also a weapon and then you use magic missile to satisfy the ranged basic attack. The weapon keyword only says what I need to use in a power, it does not mean I can not use magic missile.

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.