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kopout
2009-01-09, 07:20 PM
We have all heard of "tucker's kobolds". But I have been told that they are made obsolete by the advent of 3.x. I want to see if we can make a better version for 3.x.

The Rules
1 kobolds and goblins only no other races and no templates applied to them, a half gold dragon goblin can beat the entire party but that is not in the spirt of the contest
2 level cap of say 8. Again, it is not about twisting a kobold into a party killer it is about using a stock monster in a new and dangerous way.


that is about it for the moment go wild

Mikeavelli
2009-01-09, 07:35 PM
1. Scurry Holes:

Any dungeon large enough for the Players to walk into will also contain tiny holes large enough for the kobolds\goblins to squeeze through, but far too small for the player races to fit inside. These can be overcome by a variety of means (summoning smaller creatures, small party members, etc.) - but they're a good start to the madness, and allow you to put Goblins\kobolds anywhere you want, have them appear and disappear at will, etc.

2. Murder holes:

Small holes large enough to shoot weapons through, but too small to be traveled through, granting concealment.

Protip: Create crawlspaces above the normal caverns, with stone slots that open up and dump out alchemical concoctions. Acid is good. Alchemist's fire is better. Get large pots of boiling oil and ramped floors so you can poor it behind the adventurers, and have it flow downhill, prompting a reflex save to avoid falling down and getting immersed in the stuff.

3. Install deadfalls, either as normal traps or stoneworked ones that can be struck to fall down. Don't expect to damage the PC's with it, just let the small races sneak up behind the PC's, collapse the deadfall, and trap the PC's in these halls of death

more later.

lisiecki
2009-01-09, 10:40 PM
We have all heard of "tucker's kobolds". But I have been told that they are made obsolete by the advent of 3.x. I want to see if we can make a better version for 3.x.

The Rules
1 kobolds and goblins only no other races and no templates applied to them, a half gold dragon goblin can beat the entire party but that is not in the spirt of the contest
2 level cap of say 8. Again, it is not about twisting a kobold into a party killer it is about using a stock monster in a new and dangerous way.


that is about it for the moment go wild

Um the whole point of tuckers isnt that its one big bad kobold.
No levels needed

A level 8 party should be able to handle an EL 12 challenge right?

so that's what, 6 sets of 20 groups of kobolds attacking from muderholes?

KeresM
2009-01-09, 10:57 PM
Traps. Lots, and lots of traps.

A group of basic kobolds, put there mainly as decor, nearly wiped out a 10th level party with a combination of traps and missile weapons. Give the kobolds cover to defend against line of sight, have them catch the party in crossfire, and have the party have to cross traps to enter melee.

Instant fear of kobolds.

Throw in a few kobold sorcerers with magic missile and have them target the casters, and you have the characters fleeing.

Make it worse by having the party in some sort of unstable underground area where it can be dangerous to use area of effect spells, and watch players cry.

Llama231
2009-01-09, 11:03 PM
Kobalds with max ranks/feats, etc. in diplomacy. :smallbiggrin:

Seatbelt
2009-01-09, 11:05 PM
As far as class levels go, I'm far of kobold champions with the shield wall feat. When they're a challenge for the party, the party can't hit them with most forms of attack. So they have to be a little creative. We discovered bullrush.

Also, Kobold swordsages with abilities from the.. Tiger Claw? Discipline. Most PCs are medium. Kobolds are small. There is a lot of annoyance in that. Throw down some kaltrops and have the kobolds switch into the 'hazardous terrain' stance and watch them piss off the party as they judo everybody around.

Prometheus
2009-01-09, 11:50 PM
This one only works with kobolds: swarms and swarms of mosquitoes populate the place. Since the kobolds have natural armor one, they aren't bothered by the pests, but all the casters have to succeed on Concentration checks.

The ground can literally be covered in traps if we go with the crawlspaces from above approach. But this leads to the question "If the kobolds wanted it to be impossible to travel through, why did they make the wide lower passages at all?" We can only assume that access to the crawlspace is granted by that lower passage, that at times high volumes of kobolds need to traverse it, and perhaps also other creatures are allowed to pass through. This is certainly the case in the original Tucker's Kobolds in which they were just the first level of many. So most of the traps have to be avoidable if you know what to look for, able to be disabled from the other side, or need a kobold to activate them.

A pack of ravenous dogs/wolves/worgs. When the kobolds need to let people pass, they just feed the dogs. Of course, the dogs aren't really there to kill the more powerful ones, just to be another encumbrance/distraction/attack. Hopefully by getting the casters with enough things, the easy solutions to the problems should be avoidable.

Someone who understands the nuances of the Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) spell better than I has to verify this, but here's one to counteract that spell. In between the floor of the crawlspace and the ceiling of the wider room below is loosely packed rubble. So if the caster tries to bring down the kobolds than they fail at that task, and crush anything beneath their target (hopefully one of the PCs or blocking a passage). If it is inconvenient (or a give-away) that the floor is "wide" where the holes are, than it can slope down around the holes (so the floor/ceiling takes a kind of trapezoid shape in the plane between adjacent holes). [For those wondering about the legality of this, questions to consider are: a) Whether a feat of architecture can cause things to count as different objects. b) Whether disintegrate only targets one target. c) Whether one object can count as total cover for another object in the context of disintegrate d) What occurs when living creatures are within a 'nonliving cube' targeted by disintegrate (if the building does count as a single object).]

woodenbandman
2009-01-09, 11:55 PM
Kobolds with Confound the Big Folk. I think that they qualify by virtue of their Slight Build racial ability. They can stand in the spaces of the PCs and make the others helping out the hapless PC have a 50% chance to hit the PC that they're helping out.

Lert, A.
2009-01-10, 12:31 AM
Thunderstone salvos. Deafened condition and give casters a 20% chance to miscast spells with verbal components for 1 hour.

Realms of Chaos
2009-01-10, 02:48 AM
"The Keyhole Kobold": Ok, Ok, the name is a bit of an exaggeration but this is a cruel trick. A Female Kobold Warrior 1 with Tunnel Fighting.
...
What, did that seem too simple? Let me spell it out for you.

A Female kobold's minimum height, according to Races of the Dragon, is 2 feet. Thanks to sleight build, she can fit into areas 1 foot without penalty. With tunnel fighting, she can go through crampt tunnels (up to 6 inches in diameter) without taking the normal attack and AC penalties.

Now, let's take a look at the shortest PC from the PHB, a female halfling 2'8'' tall. Now, for fun, let's say that this PC is targeted by a Reduce Person Spell, reducing her height to 1'4''. Even to this Halfling, the 6-inch hole is, according to the Dungeon Master's Guide II, a Crawl-Navigable space.

What does this mean? First, this means that they have to take off their medium armor, heavy armor, backpacks, and other bulky items (which are stolen by kobolds unless the party drags the items behind them.)
Next, they are restricted to a speed of 5 feet whereas the Kobold can move 15 feet per round, a huge advantage to the kobold.
In addition, the penalties of being prone apply, meaning an additional -4 to AC against melee attacks and to attack rolls (along with the +4 bonus against ranged attacks, I suppose).

Of course, this is just for halflings, gnomes, and some dwarves. Anyone else treats this area as an Akward space (while under the effects of a reduce person spell). Meaning that they need an escape artist check just to move and that one-handed weapons are now unusable.

Well, so far, you've seen how I've turned a standard kobold, with a simple exchanged feat, into a master of running through difficult tunnels. How am I going to turn this into a serious threat?

The answer is simple. the kobold's tunnel has a huge amount of small criss-crossing passages that allow the kobold to lure the party in while consistently maintaining complete cover against them by hiding behind earthen columns. For example, the kobold can take one step back and two to the left or right to put a column directly between her and the party.
Meanwhile, the kobold goads the party onwards with loud boasts and the occasional crossbow bolt.

What is the kobold doing, you may ask. Well, as I have mentioned, it is only feasable for any PHB race to enter this dungeon with help from Reduce Person. The kobold is stalling until these effects wear off.

When this happens, even the smallest female gnome suddenly fins themselves in a crawl-navigable area and the larger races find themselves in Tight Squeezes. Of course, enemies in Tight Squeezes can't fight at all and need an incredibly high escape artist check to move at all.

But how high is that check, really? Assuming that the party has four characters and three of them all succeed on aid another checks to help the fourth, that player needs a +4 bonus between their ranks in escape artist and their Dexterity modifier or else it becomes literally impossible for them to move (as natural 20s are not automatic successes). Of course, the only three PHB classes with escape artist are the bard, monk, and rogue, making it quite possible for at least one player to get completely stuck.

Making this Battle Tougher:
Oh, I see you wanted to make your players cry today. Well, you came to the right place. However, for this version, I'm pumping up the kobold from a CR 1/4 creature to a CR 1. However, the changes made greatly increase the kobold's chances of killing the party all by itself (just 1 kobold) rather than requiring a den of them like in Tucker's kobolds.
Some of you may think that I just switched the warrior level for a pc level. This is not the case, however. Instead, this kobold has 4 levels in Adept. Remember, a kobold with levels in an NPC class has a CR equal to its levels -3.

Behold the advanced keyhole kobold:
Female Kobold Adept 4; Small Dragon; 12 hp; +0 initiative; speed 40 feet; AC 14 (+1 size, +1 Natural, +2 leather); Heavy Crossbow +3 (1d8); Spell-like abilities (Shield 1/day), Spells (spells prepared 0: Ghost Sound (3); 1: Protection from Good (2), Obscuring Mist; 2: Invisibility); Familiar (Toad), Slight Build, Darkvision 60 ft., light sensativity; Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +4; Str 7, Dex 11, Con 10, Wis 14, 8 Cha; Hide +13, Survival +10; Dragonwraught Kobold, Tunnel Fighting; CR 1

What I did:
1. I rearranged the base stats of the kobold from the monster manual and added the +1 stat bonus from 4th level to wisdom.
2. I gave the kobold the quick trait (unearthed arcana), making its speed advantage over the rest of the party in the tunnels just that much more impressive.
3. The Kobold has gone through the draconic rite of passage, gaining the ability to use shield 1/day. I have chosen shield because it compensates for the Kobold's lowered AC and absorbs magic missile attacks (a favorite mage tactic at low levels)
4. The Kobold has both the Tunnel Fighting and Dragonwraught Kobold (black dragon) Feats. This means that the kobold gains an additional +2 bonus on hide checks and that she is no longer vulnerable to sleep or paralysis effects (two of the few ways normal parties could otherwise incapacitate this kobold)
5. The Kobold has sprung for cross class ranks in hide, which recieves bonuses from his dragonwraught kobold feat, small size, and slight build.
6. The Kobold has a toad familiar (he was lacking in hit points after the draconic rite of passage and quick trait).
7. The Kobold has access to a good number of spells including ghost sound (distraction), Obscurring Mist (stall tactic), Protection from good (another AC booster that also grants the kobold immunity to charm and compulsion effects, another way that some parties would seek to end the battle early), and Invisibility (the perfect stall tactic).

Have Fun!:smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2009-01-10, 02:57 AM
So your playing alien then?

Ganurath
2009-01-10, 03:00 AM
Three L4 Goblin Fighters with the following feats:

Level1: Weapon Finesse (Something pointy)
Fighter1: Dodge
Fighter2: Mobility
Level3: Swarmfighting (CW)
Fighter4: Spring Attack

Combo these guys with the abovementioned Scurry Holes, have them cross-class in Move Silently (thank you +4 racial) and you have some really aggravating marauders. Why must their weapon be pointy? Why, because bludgeons can't deliver the cheap poison they're using between strafes, most favorably Bloodroot so they don't see the threat right away. You didn't think +8 against a flat-footed AC was just for 1d4 damage, did you? ...Fine, you can have them be Rogue at level 1 and have them be L5 enemies. Hey, that makes them EL8!

Now, what's to keep the party from just ready action / move action down the aisles? Well, they're attending their initial injuries, sure, but these goblins are really sneaky SOBs, so they leave presents in their wake: Something with a blast radius, a time delay, and a free action to drop. Perhaps a few bags of some sort of explosive substance that our Terrible Trio can drop Alchemist's Fire on from murder holes? A Fort saving throw mitigator would be ideal, since the poison's damage is delayed. Is there a Bestow Curse Burst? Something to get the EL up to the aforementioned 12.

That's the initial stage, the Harrier Tunnel. At the start of the tunnel is Violet Fungus, which is what alerts the Terrible Trio. At the other end, however, is what's called the Hard Drop. One the plus side, there's a pair of 5x5 holes to send spells at the Terrible Trio. On the downside... plenty of rounds with of Climb checks going down, and a modest number of goblins at the top behind murder holes, dropping... Care to guess? Alchemist's fire! Oldy, but goody, but with a twist: The goblins are aiming above the climbers, for the ropes! Did I mention this squad of goblins is a trio of wizards just high enough to cast dispel magic? Goodbye fly, hello Worg Pit!

Ah, yes, the Hard Drop ends in a Worg Pit, with no exit or entrance. As it turns out, that murder hole is big enough for their hobgoblin allies to fit through when visiting, and the wizard in question knows floating disc. So after the PCs can enjoy the traditional cramped hack/slash, they can climb up under the bombardment of alchemic artillary and the occasional save-or-suck, because these goblins apparently really like casting dispel magic.

Once they manage to climb through the murder hole single file and kill the surrounding arcanists and their weak yet flanking summons (fiendish creatures with poisonous attacks,) they'll find a tunnel sized for Medium people, with a 10 foot ceiling... but halfway up the tunnel widens from 5 feet to 15, creating flanking footpaths for goblins that want to slip in and out the scurry holes that wall these footpaths every 10 ft. Say hello to the Third Trio, the Crossbow Snipers! 200 ft of tunnel is plenty of room for these little nightmare Scouts to outmanuever the weary party, especially when the fighting in the Murder Hole Chamber signals them to start lining the main floor with caltrops. Fun for the whole family!

There is hope to eliminate these pests once and for all, thankfully, in that there's another pair of exit holes like with the first trio. Also like with the first trio, the tunnel ends with an elaborate chamber, this time the Temple of Magubliyet! Turns out the three clerics have more cheap Summon Monster scrolls than Ayn Rand has dry reading (again, venomous fiends), and they want to keep the party nice and distracted from the Third Trio... Or at least two of them do, the third is busy with the MacGuffin. What, you didn't expect to have a hellhole devoid of plot, did you?

Finally, to top things off, turns out those wizardly goblins knew message, and hobgoblins worship Magubliyet too. If the party opts to head straight out before the goblins can recover, they'll run into a level appropriate hobgoblin throwdown in the open air. If they're lucky (or you're generous) the hobgoblins will already be containing a local predator that was drawn by the shriekers for a nice three-way slugout.

Jayngfet
2009-01-10, 03:08 AM
Use a checkerboard pattern, with one set being 80ft spiked chains, the only floor above them being light wooden boards that break if anything other than a juvenile kobold walks on them(to replace them). The other squares will be hit with grease and falling blocks fall from above.

Random greased squares will have fusilade of dart triggers and insect swarms will roam about it. A large conspicuous lock will be placed on it and the method of getting past it will be crawling through a space a kobold can barely fit through hidden behind a large rock with decoys containing basic arrow traps. A second tunnel will be long and winding, shut 30 seconds after opening, end in a pitfal trap, and have an audible alarm so the kobolds can throw nasty things in.

Jerthanis
2009-01-10, 03:16 AM
A better thread with this title would be about how to beat Tucker style kobolds.

As a DM you can throw arbitrarily large amounts of anything at your players and they'll be penalized exactly as much as you want. It's never an issue with, as a DM, being able to inflict whatever damage you want the players to take. The only issue is doing it while being fair, and if we're talking about Tucker style kobolds, fair isn't even on the table.

So to be grumpy, here's how I beat Tucker Kobolds: the Ranger quietly observes them for weeks before the expedition is underway... from stealth he watches their comings and goings. He memorizes the patterns they walk in, and then they send the rogue in invisibly, and put an eversmoking bottle, opened, somewhere hidden deep within the Kobold cavern. Eventually the space fills up and the Kobolds probably panic and flee, coughing from their lair. By this time, the party has a member at every known exit, and each leaving Kobold is butchered. If the Kobolds don't leave, the smoke should still trail outward from every exit. Knowing every escape hole, they can hire extra soldiers to stand near each exit, spears out and ready to kill anything that leaves the hole. The PCs then descend into the labyrinth with teamwork and methodicalness If this absolutely does NOT work, for whatever reason, and the PCs are getting hurt or disabled, they withdraw and simply board up the entrances and guard it until the Kobolds starve. If even that doesn't work... divert a nearby river into their caverns.

Of course, if they're Tucker's Kobolds, they would at that point simply pull out their Diverted River Repellent Kobold-spray of course, and then you're pretty much screwed.

newbDM
2009-01-10, 05:46 AM
I LOVE this thread.

Please, more! :smallbiggrin:

Heliomance
2009-01-10, 05:49 AM
Eversomoking Bottles don't work that way. They fill a fixed radius with smoke, it doesn't keep getting bigger with no cap.

Adumbration
2009-01-10, 05:56 AM
Nice work, Realms of Chaos. From now on, if I ever run a game with a kobold dungeon, it shall not be conveniently adventurer-sized. That makes for a great hive and base of operations.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-10, 06:19 AM
Nice work, Realms of Chaos. From now on, if I ever run a game with a kobold dungeon, it shall not be conveniently adventurer-sized. That makes for a great hive and base of operations.

Don't make the entire dungeon a series of six-inch pipes, of course; your party would have to be completely insane to attempt to squeeze inside in the first place. Instead, make a whole adventurer-sized dungeon, full of traps and challenges and little scraps of progress, to keep the party focused on getting farther in rather than smoking out the tunnels (not that there's anything down there but a labyrinth and many pit traps, but they don't know that).

Samakain
2009-01-10, 06:44 AM
How fortunate!

i just got through putting the final touches on a kobold dungeon for the campaign i have coming up.

Couple of things i used:

Stack Your Traps any truly devious brand of small bastards is going to realize that traps can be disarmed, but no one really expects to jump over the pit trap they so cleverly found into something worse. For example one of the ones i just used was a pit trap running the full horizontal length of a 20 foot corridor, and 10 feet wide, the party can disarm or jump over this trap, however, 5ft on after the far edge of the pit trap is a second trap which causes a wooden log to swing down from the ceiling propelled by tensioned springs. this serves to knock the unlucky sole who failed his reflex save back 15 foot into the pit trap. You could be even more evil and made the log a hollow centre copper tube which takes in air upon activation covering the immediate area in alchemist fire >.>

Crossbow Slits, Murder Holes, Cover Your standard low level pleb sucks at melee, and on some basic level has to understand this. Make optimal use of ranged weaponry, give them large or larger creatures ranged weapons and mount the freaking things on tripods or small palisades, works a charm

Captive Monsters Oh My! this dungeon is full of intelligent kobolds! and 3 drug crazed hill giants! self explanatory, additionally these assets are expendable, give em improved grapple to pin the party down in areas where something even nastier is going to happen to them if they don't get out quick. A flooding room and or giant rolling stone indana jones style is perfect for this. Whats worse than a enraged minotaur? a enraged minotaur with seven pounds of explosive tied to his back who determined to tackle you.

Poison and Diseases Bring em down with a dart, or so my pappy kobold always used to say.

Crawl Spaces as mentioned to great effect previously in this thread

Reach Weapons Don't let em get close, annnnnd please reference Posion and Diseases above.

Sorcery Kobolds are natural sorcerers, play this to the hilt, there's no dodging that barrage of magic missles. that greased floor, or the magic burning spiders web. Additionally you can't see much in an Obscuring Mist.

For the Kobolds themselves? rogues, that extra D6 sneak attack is nasty, especially when you can manipulate the situation to deny the party there dex, fighters work well to, for better BAB and some nice early level feat stacking.

but really? Sorcerers Sorcerers Sorcerers.


Cheers
Sa.

Raum
2009-01-10, 09:09 AM
We have all heard of "tucker's kobolds". But I have been told that they are made obsolete by the advent of 3.x. I want to see if we can make a better version for 3.x.
The concept of Tucker's Kobolds isn't obsolete though it is often misunderstood. It's not about killing the characters in combat or, for that matter, really about killing the characters at all. Go back and read the story again, the characters never fought the kobolds in any kind of standup fight. Nor were the adventurers in serious danger at any given point in time. They were only in danger if they couldn't escape and find a place to rest, heal, and recover. The adventurers were simply constantly harassed by an enemy they couldn't easily reach or block. That's what made the deeper dungeon areas a refuge. They could rest after killing off whatever big bad had claimed a territory.

The kobolds, on the other hand, harass anyone in their territory constantly. Intruders can't rest. Ever. No sleep, running out of spells, any ammo fired at momentary targets is lost, weak assistance (mules) picked off, dropped items stolen, food spoiled, etc. All done by hundreds of wimps you never even see because they're in tiny side tunnels around the one you're traveling in...and the kobolds have the numbers to work in shifts.

The side tunnels corkscrew around the main tunnels and rooms giving the kobolds dozens of murder holes at every angle. They pour acid, boiling oil, or blinding powder through holes in the ceiling, shoot crossbows through holes in the walls, stab your feet, light the oil, or even send smoke from trash fires through holes in the floor. And when you break through a wall to go after them? They cave the small tunnel in as they retreat. Digging through the blockage to follow on your hands and knees gets you ambushed at every corner by creatures who can move quickly and easily through the tiny tunnels you're crawling in...right before they get you in deep enough to cave in a section of tunnel you can't dig out of before suffocating. Don't worry, they'll loot your corpse in a month or so when they get around to rebuilding.

The kobolds don't need any class levels. If they try to fight using the adventurers' methods they're dead. They can't ever go sword to sword or spell to spell with the adventurers. Kobolds don't even want to be seen! And if they're followed? They lead chasers into their territory where they have all the advantages. Where they use conditions and terrain (constricting tunnels, darkness, etc) against anyone foolish enough to give chase. Extensive kobold warrens will have trapped areas (slides, pits, collapsing tunnels, mazes, etc) for the sole purpose of leading enemies to and losing them inside. But kobolds never, never, stand and fight. The only ways for humans to follow are to crawl or to use size reducing magic.

Kobolds aren't the top of the food chain. They have to think outside the box to survive. Most importantly, survival is their goal. Not 'honorably' beating the adventurers in a fair fight. Any sane kobold would scoff at the mere idea.

Most adventurers would be happy to simply survive. Killing the kobolds isn't worth the trouble. Not like they have much loot after all.

Cubey
2009-01-10, 09:34 AM
Most adventurers would be happy to simply survive. Killing the kobolds isn't worth the trouble. Not like they have much loot after all.

In fact, I'm under the impression Tucker's Kobolds are best to use on powerful but dumb adventurers, who actually WILL go for the trouble of trying to kill the kobolds, and get worn out in the process. Those who simply want to survive or get through the dungeon will be much safer. For them, the kobolds will just be a nuisance - the party goes through the dungeon quickly, so attrition won't affect them that much.

Unless, of course, the DM starts playing unfair. "Yes, the kobolds shoot at you from the murder holes. No, you can't shoot back." "Sure, you disarmed the trap under the trap... but it had another trap under itself!". But that's just nasty.

TengYt
2009-01-10, 09:36 AM
Yeah, I think the whole point of Tucker's Kobolds are to create a psychological response. The PCs in the story PREFERED to take on the high level monsters further on in the dungeon than fight the kobolds. They had no idea how many kobolds they were, where they were coming from or what they'd run into next. I think the main thing about Tucker's Kobolds is to give your PCs a unique challenge aside from taking on some massive monster with a high CR. If you keep throwing Tucker's Kobolds at them, they'll know what to expect and it won't have the same effect.

Solaris
2009-01-10, 11:32 AM
Yes, precisely. Tucker's Kobolds is about a mind game. In that spirit...
If you're in any of my games, don't read this.
Corridors lined with tiny holes. Some of these corridors are completely trap-free - but most shoot stuff at the PCs as they try to walk through. Make the holes obvious - and they have to go through some of these corridors to reach the goal. Make the traps bad enough that they can't ignore them, but not bad enough that they'll kill the party.

Fishy
2009-01-10, 11:41 AM
I think it'd be fun to have an abandoned building complex with Kobolds literally in the plumping. And behind the drywall.

TengYt
2009-01-10, 11:47 AM
I once heard of a story about a DM who sometimes used double-bluffs when regarding traps. Like, occasionally, he'll put a very obvious trap in the dungeon, but avoiding the trap would set off a far worse one.
I remember one time there was a large room. The middle of the room had tiles of an obviously different colour to the rest of the floor, and a spot check would reveal there were small holes in the wall adjacent to the coloured tiles. The PCs obviously decided to move around the tiles, yet by doing so they accidently triggered a far more severe trap.

Zenos
2009-01-10, 12:14 PM
I think it'd be fun to have an abandoned building complex with Kobolds literally in the plumping. And behind the drywall.

Rats in the Walls? :smalleek:

lisiecki
2009-01-10, 12:22 PM
2 level cap of say 8. Again, it is not about twisting a kobold into a party killer it is about using a stock monster in a new and dangerous way.
that is about it for the moment go wild

ya according to all the EL calculators i can find, about 60 kobalds i think
maybe

any ways the whole point is 60 kobalds, lots of hiding places, and a giant pile of crossbow bolts

maybe some casters with magic missile

One Level 8 kobald isnt the point
its the kobolds slowly, chipping away at the party
making them use time and resorces

kamikasei
2009-01-10, 12:23 PM
We have all heard of "tucker's kobolds". But I have been told that they are made obsolete by the advent of 3.x.

Out of curiosity, were you given any sort of explanation or justification for that claim? It sounds quite strange to me. As Raum points out, Tucker's Kobolds have very little to do with the stats of the creatures involved.

TengYt
2009-01-10, 12:29 PM
Yeah, the use of Tucker's Kobolds is all about tactics, clever use of terrain and having PCs underestimate their enemies. I don't see why it wouldn't work in 3rd edition.

lisiecki
2009-01-10, 12:52 PM
Yeah, the use of Tucker's Kobolds is all about tactics, clever use of terrain and having PCs underestimate their enemies. I don't see why it wouldn't work in 3rd edition.

This is just my going theroy
I 3rd ed has made some people think that monsters need class levels or templates to be effective or intresting

Llama231
2009-01-10, 12:54 PM
Turning the PCs against each other might be useful...

monty
2009-01-10, 02:33 PM
I think it'd be fun to have an abandoned building complex with Kobolds literally in the plumping. And behind the drywall.

This gives me a great idea:

Kobolds on a Plane

Tengu_temp
2009-01-10, 02:50 PM
Why Tucker's Kobolds do not work against competent parties:
1. As mentioned before, not being able to shoot back at the kobolds through murder holes is DM fiat. They should give them total cover, but not make it impossible to attack them via range.
2. At level 10, most casters and melee characters can easily break through a stone wall.
3. Or use spells that don't even require LoS (casters only).
4. Turning yourself small enough to enter kobold tunnels is trivial at this level.

Sorry for the offtopic, I know the thread is not about that.

Kroy
2009-01-10, 02:53 PM
This gives me a great idea:

Kobolds on a Plane

You made me LOL so loudly that I started choking on my toast.

monty
2009-01-10, 02:55 PM
1. As mentioned before, not being able to shoot back at the kobolds through murder holes is DM fiat. They should give them total cover, but not make it impossible to attack them via range.

By RAW, total cover makes it impossible to attack someone (unless this was different in earlier editions).

For the rest, remember that this was 1E.

Raum
2009-01-10, 04:25 PM
Why Tucker's Kobolds do not work against competent parties:
1. As mentioned before, not being able to shoot back at the kobolds through murder holes is DM fiat. They should give them total cover, but not make it impossible to attack them via range.The PCs should be able to shoot through the holes as well. It'd have the AC of a 2" - 3" target but fighter types are probably hitting at least half the time. They'll kill the stupid kobolds who actually stand in front of a single hole and fire. The kobolds who listened to daddy fire and move. Probably less than half the kobolds fire in a given turn. They're also seldom firing from the same hole twice. So the adventurers ready actions and hit a couple...the survivors run, they're cowards after all. Of course they'll come back ten minutes later, after working up the courage, to start another round of hide and seek with arrows. Or move on to one of their other tactics.


2. At level 10, most casters and melee characters can easily break through a stone wall.Sure, and this is their best bet to get any rest while in kobold territory. Destroy enough of the tunnels to make sneaking up on you while you rest, difficult. However, it's a slow and noisy way of traveling through an entire dungeon level. Not to mention being hard on equipment.


3. Or use spells that don't even require LoS (casters only).This will work for a while. Till the caster runs out of effective spells. Kobolds would respond the same way they did to the archers readying actions...run away and come back later. Single target spells also have the same requirement of readying the action and waiting. Sooner or later, one of the kobolds will pop up at the section of wall you're watching...


4. Turning yourself small enough to enter kobold tunnels is trivial at this level.This is where kobolds go back to their tried and true tactic again...they run away! They'll lead chasers through a maze of tunnels and traps. Then, once they're deep enough, simply collapse tunnels around the adventurers to trap them. That's assuming the size reducing magic lasted that long of course.

Now the adventurers are trapped in a 2' tall tunnel maybe 20' long (assuming the kobolds didn't manage to collapse the section they're in) and running out of time. Do they have enough air to dig their way out? Can they dig fast enough to be out before they run out of size reducing magic?


Sorry for the offtopic, I know the thread is not about that.It is in a way though - the OP want kobolds effective against those tactics.

With enough magic and time the adventurers should be able to overcome all the obstacles but why would they want to? Adventurers with the resources to take them don't need anything the kobolds have. Assuming parts of the tribe don't manage to flee with most of the goods while the tribe's defenders are delaying the adventurers, the adventurers will manage to gather up a few hundred small weapons of poor to average quality, some small rags of clothing and armor, and maybe a few hundred copper. Oh, and 'ownership' of several kilometers of 2' - 3' tall tunnels and rooms in (probably) slightly damaged condition.

Tucker's Kobolds can be killed or even completely wiped out with enough work and resources. And, frankly, the whole tribe will pick up and run if someone with the capability and obsession to keep at it comes after them. But it's going to cost the attackers far more than they'll gain. Most smart adventurers will simply duck behind a shield and sprint for the other end of kobold territory. There's simply not enough reward in taking them on.

Tyrmatt
2009-01-10, 04:33 PM
I think it'd be fun to have an abandoned building complex with Kobolds literally in the plumping. And behind the drywall.

You just gave me the most evil idea possible for my AFMBE campaign...
I have a mafia boss's warehouse to build now...

TengYt
2009-01-10, 04:56 PM
This gives me a great idea:

Kobolds on a Plane

I've had it with these MotherTucking Kobolds on this MotherTucking plane!

Zenos
2009-01-10, 05:07 PM
I've had it with these MotherTucking Kobolds on this MotherTucking plane!

There are OVER NINE THOUUSAAAAAND!!

Ganurath
2009-01-10, 05:10 PM
...That's actually not a bad idea. Can't really break down walls to get to the enemy, can you?

Fun thought: Kobold/goblin pirates/stowaways in the carpenter's walk of a naval ship, slipping through the woodwork to assassinate crewmembers in their quarters until they can take over the ship.

Saintjebus
2009-01-10, 05:22 PM
Please excuse my ignorance.. I know the idea of Tucker's Kobolds, but could somebody give me the link for the original story/idea? Thanks!

only1doug
2009-01-10, 05:23 PM
Sure, and this is their best bet to get any rest while in kobold territory. Destroy enough of the tunnels to make sneaking up on you while you rest, difficult. However, it's a slow and noisy way of traveling through an entire dungeon level. Not to mention being hard on equipment.

Slow and Noisy? Yes.
Correct way to deal with Tuckers Kobolds? Yes.
Hard on equipment? Nope (adamantine)


This is where kobolds go back to their tried and true tactic again...they run away! They'll lead chasers through a maze of tunnels and traps. Then, once they're deep enough, simply collapse tunnels around the adventurers to trap them. That's assuming the size reducing magic lasted that long of course.

Now the adventurers are trapped in a 2' tall tunnel maybe 20' long (assuming the kobolds didn't manage to collapse the section they're in) and running out of time. Do they have enough air to dig their way out? Can they dig fast enough to be out before they run out of size reducing magic?

this is the 2nd worst response the PC's could make, never ever play Alice in Wonderland.




It is in a way though - the OP want kobolds effective against those tactics.

With enough magic and time the adventurers should be able to overcome all the obstacles but why would they want to? Adventurers with the resources to take them don't need anything the kobolds have. Assuming parts of the tribe don't manage to flee with most of the goods while the tribe's defenders are delaying the adventurers, the adventurers will manage to gather up a few hundred small weapons of poor to average quality, some small rags of clothing and armor, and maybe a few hundred copper. Oh, and 'ownership' of several kilometers of 2' - 3' tall tunnels and rooms in (probably) slightly damaged condition.

The adventurers need safe passage, the kobolds don't have it but can deny it. The adventurers shouldn't bother the kobolds but if the kobolds bother the adventurers then the response should be extermination.


Tucker's Kobolds can be killed or even completely wiped out with enough work and resources. And, frankly, the whole tribe will pick up and run if someone with the capability and obsession to keep at it comes after them. But it's going to cost the attackers far more than they'll gain.

Incorrect, it gains the adventurers a secure rear when they explore deeper, avoiding the dangers of needing to travel through hostile terrain while badly wounded (by something they had to run away from deeper in).


Most smart adventurers will simply duck behind a shield and sprint for the other end of kobold territory. There's simply not enough reward in taking them on.

This is the worst response, as evidenced by the original story, never blindly run into unknown areas (even if you have previously explored them) as you are likely to find traps.

Ascension
2009-01-10, 06:11 PM
The big question is why?

Why would any sane being try to fight enemies with this sort of mastery of guerrilla warfare on their own turf?

Well, aside from the Vietnam War, that is.

And beyond that, why would any players put up with it? It's not fun by any definition of the word, and this is supposed to be a game! Guerrilla warfare is only enjoyable if you're the guerrilla. It's just plain irritating to fight against.

Zeful
2009-01-10, 06:14 PM
The big question is why?

Why would any sane being try to fight enemies with this sort of mastery of guerrilla warfare on their own turf?



And beyond that, why would any players put up with it? It's not fun by any definition of the word, and this is supposed to be a game! Guerrilla warfare is only enjoyable if you're the guerrilla. It's just plain irritating to fight against.

It's a way to show the PCs that, no, you aren't the most powerful beings in the world just because your high level.

Raum
2009-01-10, 06:33 PM
Please excuse my ignorance.. I know the idea of Tucker's Kobolds, but could somebody give me the link for the original story/idea? Thanks!It's here (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/).


Hard on equipment? Nope (adamantine)I forgot, everyone has adamantine picks in their pack. :) Probably right next to 50' of rope and the 10' pole...


this is the 2nd worst response the PC's could make, never ever play Alice in Wonderland.Only second? I'd have placed it at worst.


The adventurers need safe passage, the kobolds don't have it but can deny it. The adventurers shouldn't bother the kobolds but if the kobolds bother the adventurers then the response should be extermination.I've certainly been in groups where that is the probable response. It's not the most rewarding response.


Incorrect, it gains the adventurers a secure rear when they explore deeper, avoiding the dangers of needing to travel through hostile terrain while badly wounded (by something they had to run away from deeper in).Tearing up a much smaller area gets you that.


This is the worst response, as evidenced by the original story, never blindly run into unknown areas (even if you have previously explored them) as you are likely to find traps.You mean the part where they "...climbed straight down into that unspeakable darkness, because anything we met down there was sure to be better than those kobolds."?

Something to remember though, the story of Tucker's Kobolds isn't really about kobolds. It's about how to use terrain and creative tactics. It's about opponents acting intelligently.

only1doug
2009-01-10, 07:15 PM
I forgot, everyone has adamantine picks in their pack. :) Probably right next to 50' of rope and the 10' pole...

We're talking about a mid level party right? Our L12 group has 2 adamantine weapons, I wouldn't expect them to be completely uncommon.



Only second? I'd have placed it at worst.

I rate it as only slightly less bad than running in, because you are at least moving slowly enough to retreat should you suddenly come to your senses.



I've certainly been in groups where that is the probable response. It's not the most rewarding response.

There isn't a rewarding response to tuckers kobolds, it's a GM inflicted punishment on the players.
the best bet is to bog it down in minutia so much that the GM gets bored of it and declares that the kobolds leave. (then hopefully never runs them again)



Tearing up a much smaller area gets you that.

yeah, but then you still get sneaksy attacks from kobolds, if you are always 35' from the wall there is no sneak attack damage :P



You mean the part where they "...climbed straight down into that unspeakable darkness, because anything we met down there was sure to be better than those kobolds."?

well i was thinking of the sentence before that "Our panicked flight suddenly took us to a dead-end corridor" as i consider panic a bad response to anything.
also the part that goes " We turned to our group leader for advice.
"AAAAAAGH!!!" he cried, hands clasped over his face to shut out the tactical situation"



Something to remember though, the story of Tucker's Kobolds isn't really about kobolds. It's about how to use terrain and creative tactics. It's about opponents acting intelligently.

Its about players acting like morons and thinking that if you ignore something then it won't hurt you.

FatR
2009-01-10, 07:37 PM
We have all heard of "tucker's kobolds". But I have been told that they are made obsolete by the advent of 3.x.
They never were even remotely viable in 2E too, except against stupid, pampered or purely mundane party. There is one and only one way to save your ass from a well-rounded level 7+ party in both editions - take the fight to them and beat them down. Otherwise you must hope that they are stupid or/and extremely time-constrained. If not, any sort of static defense (except defences provided by high-level magic) will be methodically dismantled piece by piece and the entire dungeon will be turned inside out with little risk. This is simply more prominent in 3E, where the party is guaranteed to completely replenish its resources in 24 hours, while replacing dead kobolds takes much longer.

Zeful
2009-01-10, 07:45 PM
This is simply more prominent in 3E, where the party is guaranteed to completely replenish its resources in 24 hours, while replacing dead kobolds takes much longer.

Only if you can rest unmolested for 8 hours, which may not be the case.

Bryn
2009-01-10, 07:45 PM
Tucker is unfun? I rather disagree. I'd love to meet Tucker-style kobolds. Sure, my character would probably die. Beforehand, I'd have a great time roleplaying his terror and confusion, and seeing just how much I could get through before the end. (Assuming, that is, it didn't just get bogged down in dicerolls beforehand...)

If, for some reason, I didn't want to play a Tuckers' Kobolds-style game, I wouldn't try to end it by boring the DM (and the other players) with minutae. I would simply ask them to tone down the lethality, because it isn't proving fun. Assuming the DM is a reasonable human being (perhaps unlikely), and that the other players agree with me, they would probably change things around. No need to cause trouble first.

For the record, it would be awesome have a party leader who responds to a problem with "AAAAAAGH!!!". Much more exciting than a level-headed response, assuming it's kept to sensible levels.

On a similar note, I really want to find someone to play Call of Cthulhu or Paranoia one of these days. :smallbiggrin:

only1doug
2009-01-10, 08:11 PM
Only if you can rest unmolested for 8 hours, which may not be the case.

or for 1hr if you have a hewards fortifying bedroll (3000gp, CM pg 132)


Tucker is unfun? I rather disagree. I'd love to meet Tucker-style kobolds. Sure, my character would probably die. Beforehand, I'd have a great time roleplaying his terror and confusion, and seeing just how much I could get through before the end. (Assuming, that is, it didn't just get bogged down in dicerolls beforehand...)

my favorite saying: "when in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout"
I like it because it describes the least useful but most common tactic.
I'd like to meet tuckers kobolds once, but i would bend my efforts to exterminating them / driving them away because i don't play low Int & Wis characters very often. (low in either one isn't uncommon though).


If, for some reason, I didn't want to play a Tuckers' Kobolds-style game, I wouldn't try to end it by boring the DM (and the other players) with minutae. I would simply ask them to tone down the lethality, because it isn't proving fun. Assuming the DM is a reasonable human being (perhaps unlikely), and that the other players agree with me, they would probably change things around. No need to cause trouble first.

Ummm... there shouldn't be any lethality, unless the players mess up. if you choose to play as a wandering moron thats your right and i won't dispute it further.


For the record, it would be awesome have a party leader who responds to a problem with "AAAAAAGH!!!". Much more exciting than a level-headed response, assuming it's kept to sensible levels.

hmmm, such a person wouldn't be party leader in any group I've been in (well OK, there was one time, but he was leader in name only)


On a similar note, I really want to find someone to play Call of Cthulhu or Paranoia one of these days. :smallbiggrin:

Both excellent games and staples of our community. I'd definitely recommend them to everyone.

I ran both Masks of Nyarlathotep and Beyond the mountains of madness campaigns with one of the PCs being a young Professor Hans Zarkov. (then that player ran the next campaign as a cthulhu meets mongo).

FatR
2009-01-10, 08:12 PM
Only if you can rest unmolested for 8 hours, which may not be the case.
If you're hunted by adventurers/monsters in approximately the same league as yourself, yes. If your opponents are entirely dependent on insanely elaborate marvels of engineering (that demand a huge investment of work, BTW) to be dangerous, no. Kobolds come in the open, kobolds get ambushed by any of the stealthy characters (who, by virtue of superior skills, can track and detect them while remaining hidden) or eaten by party's guard creatures. If they even can find where the party rests, of course.

dyslexicfaser
2009-01-10, 08:13 PM
While I realize having kobolds actually fighting the party face-to-face isn't really the point of Tucker's Kobolds, it can be done.

Get a pack of five-to-seven kobolds with Swarmfighting. Then all pile into the same square (if you follow that interpretation of the feat, the other interpretation is no more than 4 to a square). Each kobold automatically get +1 to attack for every extra Swarmfighter in your square.

Then have them take a handful of levels in the Tome of Battle classes: have each kobold take different maneuvers from White Raven, Iron Mind and other disciplines that assist each other.

Of course, you'd need to come up with a way to avoid the resident wizard's aoe attacks (maybe have one of the pack be a sorceror?), but aside from that...

Credit for this idea must go to JanusJones over on the wizard forums, who is something of a genius.

Zeful
2009-01-10, 08:21 PM
If you're hunted by adventurers/monsters in approximately the same league as yourself, yes. If your opponents are entirely dependent on insanely elaborate marvels of engineering (that demand a huge investment of work, BTW) to be dangerous, no. Kobolds come in the open, kobolds get ambushed by any of the stealthy characters (who, by virtue of superior skills, can track and detect them while remaining hidden) or eaten by party's guard creatures. If they even can find where the party rests, of course.

Why would the kobolds leave? Why are you assuming you can? If I remember correctly, the PCs were locked in after they entered the area. A simple 8"x8"x8" block of stone dropped across the 6-4" entrance means several hours of work to cut through for 1 PC. It would be easier to simply run through the area to the exit rather than cutting your way through a stone block.

kopout
2009-01-10, 10:55 PM
I've had it with these MotherTucking Kobolds on this MotherTucking plane!

I'm not sure if I have the authority to do so, but I think I can give you an internet for that .
Also, good ideas. Keep 'em coming

Knaight
2009-01-10, 10:56 PM
One method that could work would be to have little angled pipes everywhere. Basically there are two floors, with the basement way, way below the first floor. The first floor has little angled pipes that head down to the basement floor, which is narrow, and half pipe shaped. The little angled pipes have to be big enough to accommodate alchemists fire and other nasties. However thats not all. There is one big dumbwaiter, near the entrance, in down position, and a ladder on the other entrance, the kobolds lure the PCs down the ladder, rush over to the dumb waiter, through some low, narrow tunnels, then pull themselves up. One kobold is on the bottom floor to begin with, and shimmies up behind the PCs as they go down the ladder with the ropes attached to the dumb waiter, pulling the ladder to top floor, once the kobolds are all up the ropes are cut. Cue alchemists fire bombardment. One last thing. Above the ladder and dumb waiter are heavy falling stone, that fit in like a glove(both go down at an angle for the holes, so the stone just fits in with the floor). The PCs have no way up but to climb, and to do that they need to see, and torches burn through air, if torches are lit the kobolds will see it through the pipes, and clog them up. Once they run out of alchemists fire, they clog them up anyways.

only1doug
2009-01-11, 09:57 AM
Why would the kobolds leave? Why are you assuming you can? If I remember correctly, the PCs were locked in after they entered the area. A simple 8"x8"x8" block of stone dropped across the 6-4" entrance means several hours of work to cut through for 1 PC. It would be easier to simply run through the area to the exit rather than cutting your way through a stone block.

if a 8"x8"x8" cube was obstructing my path then i would simply step over it or kick it aside, or go around (depending on my paranoia level at the time).

a 8'x8'x8' cube would delay me longer.
stone has a listed hardness of 8 and 15hp / " so 8' would have 15x8x12=1440 hps. any PC with an adamantine weapon and power attack would still require some time to penetrate.
Lets imagine my L13 gish attempting it. damage / rnd (assuming autohit on all attacks as targets AC is 2 (=10-5(dex)-2(object)-1(large)).
no power attack (yeah, i need to fix this). adamantine maul 4d8+7 (average 25) 3x / rnd = 75 /rnd ignoring hardness (property of adamantine)
so 1440 / 75 = 19.5

after 20 rounds (2 minutes) your barrier is gone and my retreat path is secure.

yes, my character carries a adamantine maul and then increases its effective size using greater mighty wallop.
No, I've never needed to use it for clearing the way. (and the chances are i still wouldn't as its far more likely that someone would use stone shape instead).


Edit: Haha, I=Ninja.

FatR
2009-01-11, 10:00 AM
Why would the kobolds leave?
To do anything about these adventurers that destroy more of them every day.


Why are you assuming you can?
Because I can. It is not an "assumption" it is a hard fact.


If I remember correctly, the PCs were locked in after they entered the area. A simple 8"x8"x8" block of stone dropped across the 6-4" entrance means several hours of work to cut through for 1 PC.
You mean "several minutes"? Any THFer worth his salt can cut through a 3 feet of solid stone in 10-15 rounds tops at medium levels. Anything that is can viably be removed by kobolds (because, you know, why in the world they hadn't sealed the passage competely if they don't need it?) is even less of an obstacle. And then we have a gazillion ways to bypass/remove this with magic.


It would be easier to simply run through the area to the exit rather than cutting your way through a stone block.
Or, I don't know, Dimension Door away, as this dungeon is obviously populated by high-level creatures, that can actually hide such noticeable trap from the party's searchers.

mostlyharmful
2009-01-11, 10:26 AM
I love that so many people feel fine with doing huge amounts of hp damage to the stone around them... in a tunnel (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/7295/images/cavein.jpg)... that has been thoroughly trapped (http://www.survivaljunction.com/images/stories/survival-skills-3.jpg), undermined (http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/07Kz6A7gB9agI/610x.jpg), honeycombed (http://www.turkeytravelplanner.com/galeri/cappadocia/images/holey_rock.jpg), and deadfalled (http://www.matthewweathers.com/year2007/joshua_tree/holding_up_rock.jpg) by kobolds... anyone in my group that started using disintegrate or power attack to take on Tuckers Kobolds would get several hundred tonnes of rubble to the head, if I was feeling generous and it was the first time they'd get a few listen checks to hear all the rock above them shifting around as a hint to knock it off.

Structural damage is NOT your friend!!!!!:smalleek:

only1doug
2009-01-11, 10:33 AM
I love that so many people feel fine with doing huge amounts of hp damage to the stone around them... in a tunnel... that has been thoroughly trapped, undermined, honeycombed, deadfalled by kobolds... anyone in my group that started using disintegrate or power attack to take on Tuckers Kobolds would get several hundred tonnes of rubble to the head, if I was feeling generous and it was the first time they'd get a few listen checks to hear all the rock above them shifting around as a hint to knock it off.

How is a moveable block of stone suddenly supporting the ceiling?

I'm glad not to play with GM's who don't understand the basics of construction.

Also note how i mentioned that I was unlikely to need to demolish stone due to the stone shape spell.

mostlyharmful
2009-01-11, 10:43 AM
How is a moveable block of stone suddenly supporting the ceiling?

I'm glad not to play with GM's who don't understand the basics of construction.

Also note how i mentioned that I was unlikely to need to demolish stone due to the stone shape spell.

It's supporting the ceiling in that it was intergral to the bracing above you. The kobolds just wrote it off but hey, they never use this tunnel anyway as its fifty bajillion times too big for them to defend, it's just the big obvious one that's been heavily trapped. The Boulder has shifted out of position above you and is no longer bracing the mainstays supportting the roof. The movable block of stone is not suddenly supporting the ceiling, it's suddenly not supporting the ceiling making hitting things very hard without considering whats going on around you a generally bad plan.

Stone shape takes several castings to get through that amount of material with a large enough hole to wiggle through (provided you've memed it more than once) during which the Kobolds have more than enough time to light fires underneath you which leave you coughing and gasping but are mostly just to weaken the remaining ties. I understand construction more than well enough to have a tribe of miners and trap makers include the idea of cave ins and traps that trigger them.

Also, the above was not aimed solely at anyone. It's just that your post was the last that advocated big number violence towards the things holding the roof up, plenty of people in this thread have been fine with the idea of just smashing their way after the puny puny miners. Stone shape might work but it gives them time and you a very limited resource in however many you've memed.

FatR
2009-01-11, 01:30 PM
I love that so many people feel fine with doing huge amounts of hp damage to the stone around them... in a tunnel (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/7295/images/cavein.jpg)... that has been thoroughly trapped (http://www.survivaljunction.com/images/stories/survival-skills-3.jpg), undermined (http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/07Kz6A7gB9agI/610x.jpg), honeycombed (http://www.turkeytravelplanner.com/galeri/cappadocia/images/holey_rock.jpg), and deadfalled (http://www.matthewweathers.com/year2007/joshua_tree/holding_up_rock.jpg) by kobolds... anyone in my group that started using disintegrate or power attack to take on Tuckers Kobolds would get several hundred tonnes of rubble to the head, if I was feeling generous and it was the first time they'd get a few listen checks to hear all the rock above them shifting around as a hint to knock it off.

Structural damage is NOT your friend!!!!!:smalleek:
I love that some DMs feel fine with kobolds (or anything that has more than two brain cells on average) actually living in such structures. Where a single adventurer can wipe them out and destroy decades of work with a single round worth of actions (with minimum risk to himself, thanks to various means of escape and ability to destroy stuff at range).

NEO|Phyte
2009-01-11, 01:49 PM
I love that some DMs feel fine with kobolds (or anything that has more than two brain cells on average) actually living in such structures. Where a single adventurer can wipe them out and destroy decades of work with a single round worth of actions (with minimum risk to himself, thanks to various means of escape and ability to destroy stuff at range).

You think the kobolds actually LIVE in the trapped-to-hell sections?

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-11, 02:06 PM
You think the kobolds actually LIVE in the trapped-to-hell sections?

"Someone get the Wyrmpriest in here, quickly! Tiktik failed to leap the twenty-foot-long pit trap with the spikes at the bottom, and we really need to find out what tunnel his head rolled into before it starts attracting vermin!"

Ganurath
2009-01-11, 02:17 PM
Another benefit of the Small Only Scurry Holes: They can be used to seperate the areas of the tunnel network. There's the Big People Trap Tunnel, there's the Kill Their Small Friend Tunnels that the defenders use to move around the adventurers, and then there's the Safe From Fireballing Idiots Residential Tunnels that have Scurry Holes leading to the surface, just in case the party really is that stupid.

FatR
2009-01-11, 02:21 PM
You think the kobolds actually LIVE in the trapped-to-hell sections?
Short answer, yes. Long answer, are we still talking about the supposed bunch of physically weak creatures without levels, much less common access to medium-level magic, that, as a corollary, are hard-pressed to build anything remotely resembling a dungeon at all?

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-11, 02:27 PM
Long answer, are we still talking about the supposed bunch of physically weak creatures without levels, much less common access to medium-level magic, that, as a corollary, are hard-pressed to build anything remotely resembling a dungeon at all?

You mean, the ones with a racial bonus to Profession (Miner)?

hamishspence
2009-01-11, 02:29 PM
D&D 3.5 ed doesn't do "without levels" A kobold community will have a fairly "normal" distribution of classes. So magic would not be common, but there would be kobold mages, priests, etc.

Races of the Dragon played up their mining and trapmaking skills.

monty
2009-01-11, 02:31 PM
Short answer, yes. Long answer, are we still talking about the supposed bunch of physically weak creatures without levels, much less common access to medium-level magic, that, as a corollary, are hard-pressed to build anything remotely resembling a dungeon at all?

And intelligence equal to the average human. And why no class levels? That doesn't make much sense.

chiasaur11
2009-01-11, 02:55 PM
You mean, the ones with a racial bonus to Profession (Miner)?

And default trapmaking skills.

These guys are built to make killer dungeons.

Lert, A.
2009-01-11, 05:18 PM
Add in the fact that they are physically weak and are often cowardly in battle, and you just put a big sign "Attack Us!" on them.

If they are going to survive being raided by the stronger races they have to use their skills to protect themselves (without putting selves in too much risk).

only1doug
2009-01-11, 06:16 PM
It's supporting the ceiling in that it was intergral to the bracing above you. The kobolds just wrote it off but hey, they never use this tunnel anyway as its fifty bajillion times too big for them to defend, it's just the big obvious one that's been heavily trapped. The Boulder has shifted out of position above you and is no longer bracing the mainstays supportting the roof. The movable block of stone is not suddenly supporting the ceiling, it's suddenly not supporting the ceiling making hitting things very hard without considering whats going on around you a generally bad plan.

Stone shape takes several castings to get through that amount of material with a large enough hole to wiggle through (provided you've memed it more than once) during which the Kobolds have more than enough time to light fires underneath you which leave you coughing and gasping but are mostly just to weaken the remaining ties. I understand construction more than well enough to have a tribe of miners and trap makers include the idea of cave ins and traps that trigger them.

Also, the above was not aimed solely at anyone. It's just that your post was the last that advocated big number violence towards the things holding the roof up, plenty of people in this thread have been fine with the idea of just smashing their way after the puny puny miners. Stone shape might work but it gives them time and you a very limited resource in however many you've memed.

I do have a problem with your post though, It seems to me that you are advocating that the kobolds can harass the PC's with no possibility of the PC's preventing it.
This is exemplified by the Rocks fall, PC's die response of your previous post.

If I was part of a group where the PC's aren't allowed to deter the kobolds from attacking them and must suffer the slings and arrows of outraged kobolds under penalty of Rockfall then the GM would suffer the ultimate penalty.

the next session he'd turn up to find us all playing some other RPG with a different one of us GMing. It would likely be a few years before we would trust him to GM again.

Over-reaction? No, making the PC's a shooting gallery for the GM but not allowing them retribution isn't within the spirit of the game as far as i am concerned.

FatR
2009-01-11, 06:37 PM
And intelligence equal to the average human. And why no class levels? That doesn't make much sense.
Yeah the assumption that you can beat medium- and high-level characters without characters of comparable level doesn't make much sense. In fact, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever past level 9. However, some people on this thread argue that it is true, somehow (while forgetting, that you can't have crazy skills, necessary for making traps this elaborate without being high level, and if you're high level, then there is countless better ways to utilize your time than making defenses that any party of similar level can pretty much ignore). In truth, if highest-level kobolds present cannot kick the party' collective ass, they all are doomed. Mook numbers and mundane tactics mean something in E6. Not in vanilla DnD at medium and high levels.

Lert, A.
2009-01-11, 06:39 PM
Yeah the assumption that you can beat medium- and high-level characters without characters of comparable level doesn't make much sense. In fact, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever past level 9. However, some people on this thread argue that it is true, somehow (while forgetting, that you can't have crazy skills, necessary for making traps this elaborate without being high level, and if you're high level, then there is countless better ways to utilize your time than making defenses that any party of similar level can pretty much ignore). In truth, if highest-level kobolds present cannot kick the party' collective ass, they all are doomed. Mook numbers and mundane tactics mean something in E6. Not in vanilla DnD at medium and high levels.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask.

Have you actually faced Tucker's Kobolds? It appears not.

only1doug
2009-01-11, 06:42 PM
Yeah the assumption that you can beat medium- and high-level characters without characters of comparable level doesn't make much sense. In fact, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever past level 9. However, some people on this thread argue that it is true, somehow (while forgetting, that you can't have crazy skills, necessary for making traps this elaborate without being high level, and if you're high level, then there is countless better ways to utilize your time than making defenses that any party of similar level can pretty much ignore). In truth, if highest-level kobolds present cannot kick the party' collective ass, they all are doomed. Mook numbers and mundane tactics mean something in E6. Not in vanilla DnD at medium and high levels.

I completely agree, Well said.

BRC
2009-01-11, 06:45 PM
Yeah the assumption that you can beat medium- and high-level characters without characters of comparable level doesn't make much sense. In fact, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever past level 9. However, some people on this thread argue that it is true, somehow (while forgetting, that you can't have crazy skills, necessary for making traps this elaborate without being high level, and if you're high level, then there is countless better ways to utilize your time than making defenses that any party of similar level can pretty much ignore). In truth, if highest-level kobolds present cannot kick the party' collective ass, they all are doomed. Mook numbers and mundane tactics mean something in E6. Not in vanilla DnD at medium and high levels.
And THAT, my friends, is why I dislike higher-level DnD games.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-11, 06:49 PM
while forgetting, that you can't have crazy skills, necessary for making traps this elaborate

Elaborate? What in God's name are you talking about?

Small tunnels? Doors? Holes poked into a wall or ceiling or floor? Pits full of spiky things? Cauldrons full of boiling oil or alchemist's fire? Thunderstones? Tunnels excavated so that they'll collapse when you kick away or burn the supports? Light wooden boards that won't hold more than a kobold's-worth of weight? Longspears? A pit trap with a log wedged against a spring on the other end of it? Crossbows? A dumbwaiter? What?

FatR
2009-01-11, 06:49 PM
And default trapmaking skills.

These guys are built to make killer dungeons.
Except... not. +2 to a skill means practically nothing, unless it is an icing on top of a cake made of skill ranks and various bonuses. This doesn't give you ability to make something that a medium-level rogue cannot detect from a mile away. That's if the party kindly decides that they don't want to infilitrate your dungeon by any of the variois magical movement modes, or to send summoned creatures in day after day, until you run out of traps and kobolds (if you even can deal with them at all, of course), or to demolish the whole dungeon, or do any of the tricks that make mundane traps practically pointless at levels when you can finally build them well.

evil-frosty
2009-01-11, 06:58 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask.

Have you actually faced Tucker's Kobolds? It appears not.

Thank God i have never had to fight them...yet:smalleek::smalleek:

FatR
2009-01-11, 07:03 PM
Elaborate? What in God's name are you talking about? Small tunnels?
Very work-intensive. The only truly plausible explanation for existence of large, complicated underground complexes at medieval tech level is spells like Stone Shape, in fact.


Doors? Holes poked into a wall or ceiling or floor?
Very work-intensive, require mad skillz to make the whole construction architecturally sound, as well as to make them not immediately noticeable.


Pits full of spiky things?
Either very easily noticeable or require mad skillz. You don't have undergrowth that can mask your pits in dungeons, it is hard to hide them even from normal humans, which adventurers are not.


Cauldrons full of boiling oil or alchemist's fire?
Hideously expensive unless you have an advance warning about the attack.


Thunderstones? Tunnels excavated so that they'll collapse when you kick away or burn the supports?
Very work-intensive, require mad skillz to avoid collapse in an inappropriare moment, burning away the supports reduce the skills required, but works slowly.


Light wooden boards that won't hold more than a kobold's-worth of weight?
Either very easily noticeable or require mad skillz.


Longspears?
Do nothing.


A pit trap with a log wedged against a spring on the other end of it? Crossbows? A dumbwaiter? What?
See above. You seem to forget that PCs are entitled to Spot and Search checks to detect traps.

Zeful
2009-01-11, 07:13 PM
You seem to forget that PCs are entitled to Spot and Search checks to detect traps.

Search yes, spot no. Search also works at 10'ft.

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-11, 07:15 PM
You seem to forget that PCs are entitled to Spot and Search checks to detect traps.

Err, no, they aren't. Spot checks are made to detect monsters, and the PCs are entitled to those, but a PC has to take some time and effort to make a Search check to find a trap.

FatR
2009-01-11, 07:16 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask.

Have you actually faced Tucker's Kobolds? It appears not.
Unfortunately, my DMs tend not to give me experience for free. I had an experience of 2Ed guerilla-style campaingn against elves, who had various interesting abilities, like being, for all practical purposes, invisible in their forest. They also weren't restricted to mundane traps (their best magical trap complex nuked about an entire regiment of mooks in an instant). It soon became painfully obvious, that whatever side had better casters and other medium-level characters (no high-level NPCs participated, low-level, restricted-magic world) at the moment, dominated the battlefield heavily, negating guerilla tactics about as easily as large masses of troops.

FatR
2009-01-11, 07:19 PM
Err, no, they aren't. Spot checks are made to detect monsters, and the PCs are entitled to those, but a PC has to say they want to make a Search check to find a trap.
That's why parties, entering a possibly trapped place, usually say beforehand, that they search for traps non-stop, you know.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-11, 07:24 PM
That's why parties, entering a possibly trapped place, usually say beforehand, that they search for traps non-stop, you know.

How do they do that, exactly? It takes a full round to search a single 5" square. If you're doing that all the time, you're going to get shot about three hundred times before you get far enough down a hallway to notice the pit trap.

Zeful
2009-01-11, 07:24 PM
That's why parties, entering a possibly trapped place, usually say beforehand, that they search for traps non-stop, you know.

And tend to move very very slowly

chiasaur11
2009-01-11, 07:35 PM
That's why parties, entering a possibly trapped place, usually say beforehand, that they search for traps non-stop, you know.

Of course.

Easy to do while being peppered with arrows.

Raum
2009-01-11, 07:56 PM
Very work-intensive. The only truly plausible explanation for existence of large, complicated underground complexes at medieval tech level is spells like Stone Shape, in fact. What?! Do you know what the Viet Cong did with shovels and manual labor? What Egyptians, Chinese, and others have done in history? What miners have done through most of recorded history? None of them required magic or power tools. None of them lived underground normally either. For that matter, look at the complex tunnel systems some animals build.

Most of it simply requires labor which anyone can provide and a small amount of knowledge, instinct, or trial and error.

I still think many have missed the point though. The kobolds in the story didn't beat the characters. They simply used guerrilla tactics to harass and terrorize them. Like all guerrillas, they retreat when they meet superior force. That doesn't make them unbeatable, just difficult. And annoying. They survive by making the costs of rooting them out higher than the benefits.

Doomsy
2009-01-11, 08:08 PM
Just as a point in order, bringing up real world physics and labor costs in these kind of arguments is pretty retarded. Dwarves are regarded to build pretty intense underground fortresses and for the same reason that kobolds would. If you want to badmouth one, badmouth the other as well. You're talking the same kind of engineering, just on different scales.

Secondly, there are plenty of f-you traps that could kill a high level party and could be utilized by low levels with determination. Ever have a mountain dropped on your head? You can do it by setting up a fight in a room designed for killing high level invaders and sacrificing your own people. You just shatter your own support columns. "Oh no, this is very work intensive! That doesn't make sense!" Listen, buddy. If you had genocidal people like PCs wandering around with their powers, you'd be investing in the work or getting genocided every other week.

Oh wow, being prepared for genocidal high levels in a world where they exist doesn't make sense at all. You are SO right. Nobody would ever decide to say, set up a trap where you could lure the invaders into a side tunnel and then smash through a thin wall next to a mountain lake or pond, flooding them instantly to preserve the rest of your people. I mean, that would be just silly. You'd be better off just taking it like you're in prison with a guy named Tiny than actually preparing like maniacs as a matter of course, and just hoping the big heap heroes don't show up.

And of course, you'd never even try to fight them intelligently using harassing tactics. Best just to make it easy for them to slaughter you.

Tuckers Kobolds aren't about killing the party or making low levels party killers. They're about teaching the party that sometimes just charging forward stupidly or thinking that your magic tricks will solve every solution is not viable. They are harassment tactics for a specific area, not guerilla war.

You know what the best way to deal with the original Tuckers would have been?

Splitting the loot or bribing them to get through their territory without having to deal with the horrible annoyances they can make of themselves.

You don't bring out Tuckers to kill PCs, you bring them out to make them think laterally. Most just react in horrifying fear or scream it's unrealistic because they like playing their usual style.

FatR
2009-01-11, 08:13 PM
How do they do that, exactly? It takes a full round to search a single 5" square. If you're doing that all the time, you're going to get shot about three hundred times before you get far enough down a hallway to notice the pit trap.
Except, you don't even move down a hallway at all (if you're not in any of the following conditions: flying, invisible, gaseous, sneaking with high modifiers, already being in the warren thanks to DimDoor half a hour ago, etc, etc). Your AoE spells or expendable meatshields do. Once screams stop, you start searching. If enemy numbers seems greater than your resources, you return the next day, maybe with new tactics. Although you will eventually grind down their defenses anyway, because you spend easily replaceable stuff, and they spend lives and probably years of construction work to, at most, delay your progress. The only situation in which things like this could possibly work is one with very strict time limit imposed on the party and the party not realizing that hey, they're going into a trapped dungeon. Well, a purely physical party with no rogue can suffer badly too. Just like against every other serious challenge ever.

FatR
2009-01-11, 08:16 PM
What?! Do you know what the Viet Cong did with shovels and manual labor? What Egyptians, Chinese, and others have done in history? What miners have done through most of recorded history?
I do. Nothing of the above has much in common with typical DnD-style dungeons, particularly with dungeons as complicated as suggested here (and actually habitable, of course).

FatR
2009-01-11, 08:41 PM
Just as a point in order, bringing up real world physics and labor costs in these kind of arguments is pretty retarded. Dwarves are regarded to build pretty intense underground fortresses and for the same reason that kobolds would. If you want to badmouth one, badmouth the other as well. You're talking the same kind of engineering, just on different scales.
So, one example of **** that can fly only through magic somehow makes another example of the same able to fly through other means?


Secondly, there are plenty of f-you traps that could kill a high level party and could be utilized by low levels with determination. Ever have a mountain dropped on your head? You can do it by setting up a fight in a room designed for killing high level invaders and sacrificing your own people.You just shatter your own support columns. "Oh no, this is very work intensive! That doesn't make sense!" Listen, buddy. If you had genocidal people like PCs wandering around with their powers, you'd be investing in the work or getting genocided every other week.
Or you can, you know, avoid pissing off superpowered deathmachines for no reason whatsoever. Offer your services as stonemasons to them, instead, if you're so good at it. Maybe they need a new residence. Also, this trick doesn't work, because for it to work you basically need to know beforehand where, when and how adventurers will attack. And, well, they're not going to tell you.


Oh wow, being prepared for genocidal high levels in a world where they exist doesn't make sense at all. You are SO right. Nobody would ever decide to say, set up a trap where you could lure the invaders into a side tunnel and then smash through a thin wall next to a mountain lake or pond, flooding them instantly to preserve the rest of your people. I mean, that would be just silly. You'd be better off just taking it like you're in prison with a guy named Tiny than actually preparing like maniacs as a matter of course, and just hoping the big heap heroes don't show up.
You think that flooding (with water, not lava or something like this!) can actually kill a high-level adventurer? Heh. Also, it is not like a party that actually want to genocide kobolds would object to such mass destruction.


And of course, you'd never even try to fight them intelligently using harassing tactics. Best just to make it easy for them to slaughter you.
Harassing tactics are not intelligent when you cannot actually harass when and where it matters.


Tuckers Kobolds aren't about killing the party or making low levels party killers. They're about teaching the party that sometimes just charging forward stupidly or thinking that your magic tricks will solve every solution is not viable. They are harassment tactics for a specific area, not guerilla war.
Charging forward stupidly is indeed not viable in many situations and this situation is not the worst of them. Magic tricks, on the other hand, will solve every situation. Unless countered by better tricks/strong monsters/plot limitations.


You know what the best way to deal with the original Tuckers would have been? Splitting the loot or bribing them to get through their territory without having to deal with the horrible annoyances they can make of themselves.
I know a better way. It inlolves an easily possible tactical retreat at the very beginning, then lots of Cloudkills. Or 2E-style Fireballs for a lower-level party.


You don't bring out Tuckers to kill PCs, you bring them out to make them think laterally. Most just react in horrifying fear or scream it's unrealistic because they like playing their usual style.
My PCs would probably be glad to face something so easy. I mean, any enemy that entirely depends on attrition tactics, but has no ability to continue attrition when the party actually says "screw it" and retreats to rest, basically is a free XP.

Doomsy
2009-01-11, 09:32 PM
See, this is where the play style difference comes in. I like thinking things out and going lateral. Why I like CoC. It rewards it instead of mechanical abuse like D&D.

And magic tricks don't always work. This is why Tuckers is more viable in 4E, but than again, certain people don't like it precisely because of that.

Jayngfet
2009-01-11, 09:37 PM
The thing is that kobolds are actually better miners than kobolds, they're the ones who give all that ludicrous loot to dragons. They're supposed to be much more efficient at it, they just never keep the loot themselves.


And after playing dungeon lords I got an idea: You take the large, aformentioned checkerboard trap room, stick a frame above it between the falling blocks have the kobolds above it firing arrows, with a retractilble rope bridge in one location so the PC's can't climb up very easily. From there they can remote drop the blocks if needed.

kopout
2009-01-11, 09:39 PM
The thing is that kobolds are actually better miners than kobolds, they're the ones who give all that ludicrous loot to dragons. They're supposed to be much more efficient at it, they just never keep the loot themselves.

um..........

Jayngfet
2009-01-11, 09:43 PM
um..........

I'm not joking, they mine an ungodly amount of gold, they just sacrifice it all to dragons, where did you think dragons in secluded mountains and in near inhospitible lands get their swag?

kopout
2009-01-11, 09:50 PM
I'm not joking, they mine an ungodly amount of gold, they just sacrifice it all to dragons, where did you think dragons in secluded mountains and in near inhospitible lands get their swag?

I was talking about the typo where you compared Kobolds to Kobolds one of them should have been "dwarves "

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-11, 09:59 PM
I was talking about the typo where you compared Kobolds to Kobolds one of them should have been "dwarves "

Maybe he meant that Kobolds are actually better at being miners than they are at being Kobolds, and wasn't comparing them to dwarves...

chiasaur11
2009-01-11, 09:59 PM
I was talking about the typo where you compared Kobolds to Kobolds one of them should have been "dwarves "

No typo. Kobolds are so good at the job, they can only be compared to themselves.

Jayngfet
2009-01-11, 10:15 PM
Meh, My computer hates me and keeps stopping my keyboard from working when I try ot edit that.

woodenbandman
2009-01-11, 10:26 PM
To everyone saying that classless enemies couldn't craft these horrible traps, I point you to this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#combiningSkillAttempts

Any skill attempt that achieves higher than a 10 (between racial, ranks, skill focus, and an int of 12, that's at least an 11, adds a +2 to the highest result. 40 guys working on carving out a tunnel? Or digging a pit? Or setting a tripwire that collapses exactly 30 cubic meters of ceiling? Totally easy now thanks to your infinite bretheren. Crafting those murder holes would take a day or two, tops. Besides, I'm sure they could do some trick like supporting the floor with extra bracing like in a freakin' house's ceiling to prevent the floor from falling through.

Jayngfet
2009-01-11, 11:05 PM
Yeah, These aren't mind bogglingly complicated traps, I built a working ballista out of old junk in my garage in about an hour and a half and if I worked at it for a few more hours with more junk I could increase it's accuracy dramatically. I did this in eighth grade on a whim.

Raum
2009-01-12, 12:42 AM
I do. Nothing of the above has much in common with typical DnD-style dungeons, particularly with dungeons as complicated as suggested here (and actually habitable, of course).No? I suspect the catacombs of Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Rome) and Paris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Paris) and the many cave dwelling / using cultures (http://www.fullbooks.com/Castles-and-Cave-Dwellings-of-Europe1.html) were the the inspiration for "DnD-style dungeons" - but perhaps not. Perhaps they did need a Stone Shape spell.

FatR
2009-01-12, 05:16 AM
To everyone saying that classless enemies couldn't craft these horrible traps, I point you to this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#combiningSkillAttempts

Any skill attempt that achieves higher than a 10 (between racial, ranks, skill focus, and an int of 12, that's at least an 11, adds a +2 to the highest result. 40 guys working on carving out a tunnel? Or digging a pit? Or setting a tripwire that collapses exactly 30 cubic meters of ceiling? Totally easy now thanks to your infinite bretheren.
Wrong. See: "In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once."

FatR
2009-01-12, 05:28 AM
No? I suspect the catacombs of Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Rome) and Paris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Paris) and the many cave dwelling / using cultures (http://www.fullbooks.com/Castles-and-Cave-Dwellings-of-Europe1.html) were the the inspiration for "DnD-style dungeons" - but perhaps not. Perhaps they did need a Stone Shape spell.
You don't build caves, you know. As about catacombs, besides being largely unsuited for actual living and build over the decades and centuries, they still are way, way less complicated that dungeons described here, or dwarven settlements, for that matter.

Drascin
2009-01-12, 07:09 AM
Wrong. See: "In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once."

The limitation on the number of people able to work on a whole tunnel, given we're talking people two feet tall, is still going to be high enough to give the process a huge modifier, though. You can't tell me you can't think of twenty kobolds working in the same tunnel.

Harperfan7
2009-01-12, 09:46 AM
What? Tuckers Kobolds?!

Good thing I brought my adamantine dire ferret swarm!

BRC
2009-01-12, 09:56 AM
You don't build caves, you know. As about catacombs, besides being largely unsuited for actual living and build over the decades and centuries, they still are way, way less complicated that dungeons described here, or dwarven settlements, for that matter.
What about Mines, those are essentially artificial caves.

Bryn
2009-01-12, 01:56 PM
Why does it matter whether the kobolds could make their fortifications or not? If it makes for a fun game, they can build them; if it doesn't, then they cannot. As far as I'm concerned, a Tucker's Kobolds game would be epic, and as a result the kobolds are perfectly able to build their dungeon. :smallbiggrin:

Returning to the original subject of the thread...
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned the practice of putting two pit traps adjacent to each other. Even if they have...

A Kobold's Guide to Pit Trap Shenanigans
You construct a pit trap. Either deliberately set it off, or leave it hidden; in any case, your enemies will soon find out about it. They will probably assume that the pit trap in that area has already been set off, and leap over the trap, only to land on the second pit trap directly behind which the you are naturally very careful to keep very well hidden.

Naturally, it's easily thwarted by flying villains*, and unlikely to work more than once, but it's a nice surprise to go at the beginning of the dungeon. For real refuge in audacity, construct a room entirely full of rows of pit traps at completely random widths.

Indeed, mislead them. Make it appear that the edges of the pit traps are marked by some floor feature - wooden beams, perhaps. Then have a wooden beam that gives way into a pit trap.

For extra points, suspend a thin piece of string above one of the pit traps to catch any leapers and drop them into the trap. (This is assuming that magical invisible walls aren't available to you - maybe one of you is a sorceror, in which case go for it!)

*The Kobolds are obviously the heroes here :smalltongue:

Here is a diagram of quite how to mislead the villains...
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9691/pittraproomyd1.png
1: First pit. Deliberately tripped by kobolds - obvious hole in floorboards. (Alternatively, leave this one un-tripped and let the PCs fall into it).
2: Closed pit straight after open pit. Whoever jumps falls right in! Wheee!
Repeat 2 for a bit, let the enemies become familiar. "Why, these foolish kobolds! We can just leap from solid platform to platform! Nothing could be easier!"
3: Fake solid platform. Jumper goes straight through.
4: Extra fun: piece of string or thin metal rod to disrupt jump and drop villain into pit.
5: Despite the best efforts of the kobolds, particularly vile villains might traverse the cunningly set sequence of misleading pit traps. The next room appears completely different, but right after the door is another pit trap that sends an enemy right back in.

Of course, don't leave it to chance! Pour boiling oil into the holes, shoot crossbows all over the place, and in general do your best to distract the villains so they do not see the traps!

To DMs: use this on players who have a sense of humour (clearly), and who are creative enough to try various techniques to bypass the pit traps only to run into the Kobolds' tricks. Better yet if they start trying to predict what the kobolds do next and go to elaborate lengths to avoid it.

Also: is kinda pointless if PCs can fly.

MickJay
2009-01-12, 02:30 PM
What about blocking corridor simultaneously at both ends and letting gas/flaming substance in? Either the "villains" will get poisoned, or they'll suffocate due to lack of oxygen, used up by whatever is burning. I'm assuming the blocking thing will be reasonably air-tight (single stone block, heavy metal slab) and it will take more than 2 kicks to break through.

Some traps can be modified to deliver their effect 10 to 20 feet in front of what triggers them (i.e. actually hitting group using poles and pushing weights in front of it).

Tacoma
2009-01-12, 04:44 PM
The kobolds could also steal stuff from the PCs, though this exposes them. I'm talking stealing their spell components, arrows, sheathed backup weapons, food, water, etc. Sure the Wizard has spells that don't require materials, but what does the party archer do with no arrows?

pingcode20
2009-01-12, 10:38 PM
You know, I don't think we've quite grasped just how insanely good Kobold miners are.

Profession:Miner rules work out as follows:

DC 10 to excavate 1/2 a 5' cube a day (2 day's work to excavate one).
DC 15 to excavate 1 cube/day
+5 = Excavate another cube/day.

With regards to Aid Another, up to 2 medium miners can work on one square, aiding another. Ordinarily, size changes change ratios normally (small creatures have halved digging speed, but can bring in 3 miners to aid the lead), but Kobolds are both small creatures and dig as medium miners.

This means that a stock Kobold Expert who makes no effort to improve his/her mining with feats or ability scores can excavate an entire 5' cube on his own per day. With a team of 4, the kobolds can bore through 2 5' cubes a day.

A standard array Kobold Expert with Skill Focus (Basically competent miners) ends up with a +10 modifier to Profession Miner - this allows a solo Expert to make 2 5' cubes of tunnel in 8 hours.

With a team of trainees (unskilled kobolds still yet to gain their ranks) aiding him, the Expert can cut through 3 5' cubes in 8 hours.

If it's deemed necessary to blast even faster, with the expenditure of 83gp (50+33) for a weak ditherbomb (they're produced in-house by the Kobolds - essentially kobold dynamite) and masterwork pick the team can blaze through 4 5' cubes in 8 hours.

Consider then, that the Kobolds proceed to use shifts to tunnel through. With 8 hour shifts (one team stops after 8 hours to rest, and another shift picks up where they left off, running digging through the whole day) the Kobolds can cut 45' deep a day with 3 trained 'standard' miners and 9 trainee miners.

If they choose to use ditherbombs, they can tunnel 60' deep in 5' cubes every day with the same number and the expenditure of 50gp + 100gp/day. (The masterwork pick can be rotated when not in use)

45' of 5' cubes, by the way, represents 1,125 cubic feet. Stone Shape, at 20th level, shapes 30 cubic feet. A cleric 20 who burns all expected* spell slots has 53 stone shapes available, amounting to 1,590 cubic feet. If the kobolds start using masterwork picks and ditherbombs, they excavate 1,500 cubic feet - 94% of the Cleric 20's expected stone shape speed.

Our work team, if it chooses to employ a masterwork pick and weak ditherbombs, has a minimum value of:

50gp Masterwork Pick
9gp 3 Standard Miner's Picks
.9gp/day 3 Trained Miner Work Value
.9gp/day 9 Untrained Miner Work Value
100gp/day 3 Weak Ditherbombs
6gp/day Daily Rations

Total: 59gp + 107.8gp/day upkeep
Mining Rate: 1500 cu. ft

If a slower pace is acceptable, the masterwork pick can be removed and ditherbombs left unused:

12gp 4 Standard Miner's Picks
.9gp/day 3 Trained Miner Work Value
.9gp/day 9 Untrained Miner Work Value
6gp/day Rations

Total: 12gp + 7.8gp/day upkeep
Mining Rate: 1125 cu. ft

In contrast, a 20th level cleric tunneling through is valued as such (DMGII Hireling Expenses used for cost-effectiveness):

36000gp Periapt of Wisdom +6
137500gp Tome of Understanding +5
1gp Holy Symbol
400gp/day Hireling Fees
.5gp/day Rations

Total: 176501gp + 400.5gp/day upkeep
Mining Rate: 1590 cu. ft

You could run 4 Kobold Mining Rotations for the value of one 20th level cleric tearing holes into the wall, and each mining team would be 94% as effective as the cleric.

Finally, for reference, Human Digging Teams would probably function as follows:

6gp Miner's Picks
.3gp/day Trained Miner Value
.1gp/day Untrained Miner Value
1gp/day Rations

Total: 6gp + 1.4gp/day upkeep
Mining Rate: 250 cu. ft

This is, of course, for a single shift. A rotation would cost 6gp + 4.2gp/day upkeep, and excavate 750 cu. ft a day. I've made the assumption that the trained miner has a wisdom score of 12/13, which allows his assistant's aid another to push him over to 2 cubes/day. Despite this, note that this result is achievable by a single trained kobold miner.

Note that everything relevant to the task is directly priced, because it's a valuation of the resources committed for a given task. Yes, you might not have to pay that 161,000gp for the Cleric's buffs, but that is at least 161,000gp of Cleric that could be doing something better with his time. Same with the hireling costs - the Cleric could be charging that for his time. Note also that this is an Earth Domain cleric - the Kobold Rotation strategy would outstrip any cleric unable to take advantage of Earth Domain slots for Stone Shape by 120 cubic feet.

So, in conclusion, the only plausible explanation for elaborate underground complexes is insane kobold ultra-digging teams. Stone Shape is just too horribly inefficient to work on a large scale. (A single 5ft cube is 125 cubic feet, and stone shape affects 10 cubic feet + 1 cubic foot/CL) :smallbiggrin:

*Assuming 18 start + 5 level up + 5 wish + 6 enhancement

---

On a totally unrelated note, in RotD, there's actually a feat available to characters with 9 ranks in Craft(Traps) that reduces the cost of trap construction for all intents and purposes. Kobolds have a special exception - they halve all trap values.

chiasaur11
2009-01-12, 10:46 PM
You know, I don't think we've quite grasped just how insanely good Kobold miners are.

Profession:Miner rules work out as follows:

DC 10 to excavate 1/2 a 5' cube a day (2 day's work to excavate one).
DC 15 to excavate 1 cube/day
+5 = Excavate another cube/day.

With regards to Aid Another, up to 2 medium miners can work on one square, aiding another. Ordinarily, size changes change ratios normally (small creatures have halved digging speed, but can bring in 3 miners to aid the lead), but Kobolds are both small creatures and dig as medium miners.

This means that a stock Kobold Expert who makes no effort to improve his/her mining with feats or ability scores can excavate an entire 5' cube on his own per day. With a team of 4, the kobolds can bore through 2 5' cubes a day.

A standard array Kobold Expert with Skill Focus (Basically competent miners) ends up with a +10 modifier to Profession Miner - this allows a solo Expert to make 2 5' cubes of tunnel in 8 hours.

With a team of trainees (unskilled kobolds still yet to gain their ranks) aiding him, the Expert can cut through 3 5' cubes in 8 hours.

If it's deemed necessary to blast even faster, with the expenditure of 83gp (50+33) for a weak ditherbomb (they're produced in-house by the Kobolds - essentially kobold dynamite) and masterwork pick the team can blaze through 4 5' cubes in 8 hours.

Consider then, that the Kobolds proceed to use shifts to tunnel through. With 8 hour shifts (one team stops after 8 hours to rest, and another shift picks up where they left off, running digging through the whole day) the Kobolds can cut 45' deep a day with 3 trained 'standard' miners and 9 trainee miners.

If they choose to use ditherbombs, they can tunnel 60' deep in 5' cubes every day with the same number and the expenditure of 50gp + 100gp/day. (The masterwork pick can be rotated when not in use)

45' of 5' cubes, by the way, represents 1,125 cubic feet. Stone Shape, at 20th level, shapes 30 cubic feet. A cleric 20 who burns all expected* spell slots has 53 stone shapes available, amounting to 1,590 cubic feet. If the kobolds start using masterwork picks and ditherbombs, they excavate 1,500 cubic feet - 94% of the Cleric 20's expected stone shape speed.

Our work team, if it chooses to employ a masterwork pick and weak ditherbombs, has a minimum value of:

50gp Masterwork Pick
9gp 3 Standard Miner's Picks
.9gp/day 3 Trained Miner Work Value
.9gp/day 9 Untrained Miner Work Value
100gp/day 3 Weak Ditherbombs
6gp/day Daily Rations

Total: 59gp + 107.8gp/day upkeep
Mining Rate: 1500 cu. ft

If a slower pace is acceptable, the masterwork pick can be removed and ditherbombs left unused:

12gp 4 Standard Miner's Picks
.9gp/day 3 Trained Miner Work Value
.9gp/day 9 Untrained Miner Work Value
6gp/day Rations

Total: 12gp + 7.8gp/day upkeep
Mining Rate: 1125 cu. ft

In contrast, a 20th level cleric tunneling through is valued as such (DMGII Hireling Expenses used for cost-effectiveness):

36000gp Periapt of Wisdom +6
125000gp Tome of Understanding +5
1gp Holy Symbol
400gp/day Hireling Fees
.5gp/day Rations

Total: 161001gp + 400.5gp/day upkeep
Mining Rate: 1590 cu. ft

You could run 4 Kobold Mining Rotations for the value of one 20th level cleric tearing holes into the wall, and each mining team would be 94% as effective as the cleric.

Finally, for reference, Human Digging Teams would probably function as follows:

6gp Miner's Picks
.3gp/day Trained Miner Value
.1gp/day Untrained Miner Value
1gp/day Rations

Total: 6gp + 1.4gp/day upkeep
Mining Rate: 250 cu. ft

This is, of course, for a single shift. A rotation would cost 6gp + 4.2gp/day upkeep, and excavate 750 cu. ft a day. I've made the assumption that the trained miner has a wisdom score of 12/13, which allows his assistant's aid another to push him over to 2 cubes/day. Despite this, note that this result is achievable by a single trained kobold miner.

Note that everything relevant to the task is directly priced, because it's a valuation of the resources committed for a given task. Yes, you might not have to pay that 161,000gp for the Cleric's buffs, but that is at least 161,000gp of Cleric that could be doing something better with his time. Same with the hireling costs - the Cleric could be charging that for his time. Note also that this is an Earth Domain cleric - the Kobold Rotation strategy would outstrip any cleric unable to take advantage of Earth Domain slots for Stone Shape by 120 cubic feet.

So, in conclusion, the only plausible explanation for elaborate underground complexes is insane kobold ultra-digging teams. Stone Shape is just too horribly inefficient to work on a large scale. (A single 5ft cube is 125 cubic feet, and stone shape affects 10 cubic feet + 1 cubic foot/CL) :smallbiggrin:

*Assuming 18 start + 5 level up + 5 wish + 6 enhancement

---

On a totally unrelated note, in RotD, there's actually a feat available to characters with 9 ranks in Craft(Traps) that reduces the cost of trap construction for all intents and purposes. Kobolds have a special exception - they halve all trap values.

...
Wow. I salute you sir.

Now I see what people meant when they said if DnD was realistic, Kobolds would rule the world.

monty
2009-01-12, 10:48 PM
...
Wow. I salute you sir.

Now I see what people meant when they said if DnD was realistic, Kobolds would rule the world.

If I ever get around to making my own campaign world (it's on my To Do list), it's going to be dominated by kobolds.

Raum
2009-01-13, 07:47 AM
If a slower pace is acceptable, the masterwork pick can be removed and ditherbombs left unused:

12gp 4 Standard Miner's Picks
.9gp/day 3 Trained Miner Work Value
.9gp/day 9 Untrained Miner Work Value
6gp/day Rations

Total: 12gp + 7.8gp/day upkeep
Mining Rate: 1125 cu. ftSo taking your slow pace, the kobold team will dig 250 linear feet of 1.5' wide by 3' tall tunnel each shift. Your listed cleric, while moving more earth, actually move shorter linear distances - just under 50 linear feet when digging an 8' tall by 4' wide tunnel. Both cleric and kobolds could go somewhat faster if they're willing to accept smaller tunnels. Out of curiosity, how many spells does your example have the cleric expending on Stone Shape? Or was he mining by hand? I'm wondering where you got those numbers.

pingcode20
2009-01-13, 08:07 AM
The Cleric runs at 20th level firing off 53 Stone Shape spells per day, expending every potential use he could get out of 20th level and the full 34 Wisdom employing 'standard' boosting methods.

It's an absolutely insane number of spell slots to be using on just Stone Shape, but that's the maximum I can get a hold of.

I haven't really gotten into how the Cleric is using ranks in Profession - the Cleric mining himself would be somewhat superior to a Kobold miner simply by virtue of Wisdom bonuses. More if the Cleric chooses to take ranks in Profession, but I didn't bother to calculate it because it really becomes academic at this point.

Mostly because of the Lyre of Building.

---

Also, just noticed that I got the Tome of Understanding wrong. It's 137,500gp.

MickJay
2009-01-13, 05:12 PM
How does your calcualtion of kobold digging compare to official guides for the cost of building dungeons? It looks like employing kobolds to do the digging can significantly reduce the total cost, even if we add all the metal gates, traps and cheap statues afterwards...

shadow_archmagi
2009-01-13, 07:59 PM
How does your calcualtion of kobold digging compare to official guides for the cost of building dungeons? It looks like employing kobolds to do the digging can significantly reduce the total cost, even if we add all the metal gates, traps and cheap statues afterwards...

DON'T DO IT! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO! Think about it first! You're trusting the blueprint and the structural integrity to a race of evil greedy bastards. That's like hiring a team of Gollums to do your accounting!

shadow_archmagi
2009-01-14, 06:21 AM
While I realize having kobolds actually fighting the party face-to-face isn't really the point of Tucker's Kobolds, it can be done.

Get a pack of five-to-seven kobolds with Swarmfighting. Then all pile into the same square (if you follow that interpretation of the feat, the other interpretation is no more than 4 to a square). Each kobold automatically get +1 to attack for every extra Swarmfighter in your square.

Then have them take a handful of levels in the Tome of Battle classes: have each kobold take different maneuvers from White Raven, Iron Mind and other disciplines that assist each other.
.

Could said kobolds take Confound the Big Folk and pile into the PC's square?

Bryn
2009-01-14, 10:32 AM
DON'T DO IT! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO! Think about it first! You're trusting the blueprint and the structural integrity to a race of evil greedy bastards. That's like hiring a team of Gollums to do your accounting!
Speciesist. Kobolds did nothing to you! :smalltongue:

But should you find yourself misplacing things over the next few days, it's probably those damn Gnomes - the REAL gollum race! Of course, us kobolds can help you, for a fee...

MickJay
2009-01-14, 10:33 AM
DON'T DO IT! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO! Think about it first! You're trusting the blueprint and the structural integrity to a race of evil greedy bastards. That's like hiring a team of Gollums to do your accounting!

Not that I want to use it personally, but assuming someone built a dungeon to protect a treasure (dumb idea in the first place, why construct something that's obviously housing something valuable? Why not just bury it under a rock?), it would be nice to know how much of that treasure would be spent to build a dungeon in the first place. Most dungeon builders seem to start with 1mln+ gold and spend 97% of it just to have a nice package for the remaining 3%...

Tacoma
2009-01-14, 06:03 PM
Most dungeons existed for other reasons. The kobolds, for examlpe, might start out just wanting living space. Then they want a formal dining area and kitchen. Then later a treasure room.

Oops, too close the the surface, people can get right into your bedrooms. Let's dig deeper and put our bedrooms and stuff back there, defensive tunnels closer to the surface.

Now we need lots of escape and access tunnels. Air shafts. Drainage and wells. Lots of storage space for packratting.

When it comes down to it, most of the cost of the work crew is in its food. And it's crazy to think that kobolds are used to eating 5 SP a day in food when a human laborer (unskilled) makes a SP a day. Let's talk more like 5 CP a day in food, which is actually free because a kobold goes trapping for it.

Anyway, take the stereotypical "dwarven ruin". The dwarves didn't build it to hold one treasure vault. It was probably a military fortress, or a trading post, or factory, or maybe even a really big city. The fact that after it gets ruined it's full of monsters and parts have fallen in just means that it suddenly becomes dunegon-like without any extra effort no the designers' parts.

EDIT: And to keep the kobolds honest, you have them carve out just the main areas, the largest spaces. They have overseers who make sure they don't carve out extra tunnels. When you get rid of them (firing them, or killing them) then you hire legitimate workers or use magic to make all your secret passages and such.

Knowing your layout isn't such a problem because any employee who left would know your layout. And unless you lead-plate all the surfaces or build in a galena mine, anyone can scry you out. And you don't want to build in a galena mine because of the water leaching all the lead out into your drinking water. Heck, at that point go build your fortress in a cinnabar mine and make lots of cinnabar mugs.

Murderous Hobo
2009-01-15, 02:36 PM
You don't want to build in a galena mine because of the water leaching all the lead out into your drinking water.

Mind if I borrow that idea? It's perfect to put undead in.

Chamberlain of the Heavy Halls: "The Lord of the Breathless welcomes you to his his halls and begs your forgiveness for not being able to provide a welcoming feast as he would have in life. As you can see, we are not used to the living. We can however drink and toast with the finest water from this mountain. It is believed to come directly from the elemental plane".

Tacoma
2009-01-15, 02:46 PM
I made an adventure once where the kidnappers who took the young prince hide in an abandoned lead mine. This way, see, the PCs couldn't just scry-teleport-murder-teleport-count de money.

chiasaur11
2009-01-15, 05:26 PM
DON'T DO IT! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO! Think about it first! You're trusting the blueprint and the structural integrity to a race of evil greedy bastards. That's like hiring a team of Gollums to do your accounting!

Lawful evil, cowardly bastards.

If you have to have evil workers, Kobolds seem the best pick. And Lawful Neutral Kobolds aren't unknown.

Realms of Chaos
2009-01-16, 01:10 AM
I have just had a revelation, my friends. Tucker's Kobolds can work and I can prove it. The answer to our prayers was right before our eyes and we refused to see it.

The answer to our hopes and prayers, ladies and gentles, are yodelling kobolds. :smallbiggrin:

...
...
No, I'm serious. Stop laughing.

Fine, I'll explain. The number one priority of Tucker's Kobolds is to prevent the party from catching thier breath. Sooner or later, the fighters will become fatigued, spellcasters will run out of spells, and the lack of natural healing allows bits of damage to accumulate.
In 3.5, this task has become significantly harder. The tried and true tactics of having kobolds skirmish the party is no longer feasible as the party can and will tear apart the walls, floor, and ceiling looking for kobold tunnels before settling somewhere for the night. Worse yet, Hewards's Fortifying Bedroll lowers the time needed for sleep down to a single hour, giving you less skirmish time.
The answer to all of this, as stated above, is yodelling kobolds. In the tunnel-filled, windy, echoey lair of kobolds, yodelling kobolds are all that you need. According to the player's handbook, spells must be prepared (or spell slots regained) in an area free from overt distractions, such as combat raging nearby or other loud noises.
Therefore, you position kobolds some kobolds in the dungeon with no objecting other than to continually yodel in rotating shifts. They need not have ranks in perform (in fact, this may make it more cruel for the characters :smalltongue:).
Furthermore, looking in the player's handbook once again, I see another couple of interesting facts.
Fact 1: Sleeping creatures take a -10 penalty on listen checks and a successful listen check results in waking up.
Fact 2: Loud sounds, such as combat (and yodelling) have a Listen DC of -10.

In short, unless the player takes extraordinary measures (such as throwing thunderstones at themselves, subjecting themselves to a deafness spell, or relying on the short duration of silence spells), they can't fall asleep.

To top it off, the kobolds have crafted the acoustics of their tunnels to let the sound travel far while concealing its source.

The secret to avoiding the yodelling kobolds of death, of course, is to rely on the rope trick spell (12th level players don't have Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion [usually]).

Wait a moment, the players can get past this? What in the world is wrong with you, RoC? In my defense, this "bypass mechanism" is not, I repeat, is not, an error in my design. As has been said multiple times, Tucker's Kobolds are there to punnish 1)players who underestimate weaker foes; and 2)players who rush in, guns ablazing.
If a caster has the caution to prepare for a safe rest instead of packing another scorching ray, even though they're fighting kobolds, they deserve to live through Tucker's Kobolds and the "weak point" in my plan has been overcome fairly and squarely.

Of course, even such smart players need not get off scott free. You see, this scenario presents the DM with the perfect excuse to play yodelling tracks as background music over and over and over again, perfecting the psychological warfare. :smallamused:

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-16, 01:55 AM
Wait a moment, the players can get past this? What in the world is wrong with you, RoC? In my defense, this "bypass mechanism" is not, I repeat, is not, an error in my design. As has been said multiple times, Tucker's Kobolds are there to punnish 1)players who underestimate weaker foes; and 2)players who rush in, guns ablazing.
If a caster has the caution to prepare for a safe rest instead of packing another scorching ray, even though they're fighting kobolds, they deserve to live through Tucker's Kobolds and the "weak point" in my plan has been overcome fairly and squarely.

Or, if you're beginning to hate how your party uses rope trick all the damn time whenever they don't have a really obvious time limit hanging over their heads, you could have the kobolds curtain off a small area around the opening and then build a thick wall on the other side.

And then fill the room on the other side with something nasty. And wall off the doors leading in and out of that room. And so forth. I'm sure there are all kinds of fun things you could do that would be more ingenious than "the kobolds collapse the ceiling over that room after an hour or two, you're all trapped in a ten-foot-wide demiplane, and you had better hope you can think of a way out before the rope trick ends."

Wait, that might be pretty fun if escape was actually possible.

Zeful
2009-01-16, 02:06 AM
Or, if you're beginning to hate how your party uses rope trick all the damn time whenever they don't have a really obvious time limit hanging over their heads, you could have the kobolds curtain off a small area around the opening and then build a thick wall on the other side.

And then fill the room on the other side with something nasty. And wall off the doors leading in and out of that room. And so forth. I'm sure there are all kinds of fun things you could do that would be more ingenious than "the kobolds collapse the ceiling over that room after an hour or two, you're all trapped in a ten-foot-wide demiplane, and you had better hope you can think of a way out before the rope trick ends."

Wait, that might be pretty fun if escape was actually possible.

Transdimensional Spelled Create Water and true seeing. Ten foot wide Demiplane is now filled with water.

Twilight Jack
2009-01-16, 03:22 PM
How big is a kobold tribe, per the Monster Manual?


40d10 1st level kobolds plus 1 3rd level for every 20 adults plus 1 or 2 4th-5th level plus 1 6th-8th level, along with 5-8 dire weasels.

We'll average that out to two hundred twenty K1, eleven K3, two K5, and a K7, along with 7 dire weasels. They occupy an underground setting, mined out to their liking.

Now then, being lawful creatures, kobolds work well in concert. They also tend to have a fairly strong sense of community over individual. As such, presume that they have a plan for dealing with invaders.

For this group of kobolds, we will presume that acutal skill points are invested by every member of the tribe into Craft (trapmaking). At first level, every kobold warrior has 8 skill points to spend. We'll go ahead and put 2 into Craft, giving them a total of +4 to the skill. Not great, but good enough to aid the higher level characters.

The 3rd level kobolds are all rogues. Max out Hide, Move Silently, Craft (trapmaking), and Disable Device, amongst other skills. A 3rd level Kobold Rogue should easily manage a +12 to Craft.

The 5th level kobolds are rogues as well, now they've got a +14 at least to Craft.

Now, figure out how many kobolds could conceivably work together to build a single trap. Let's say five (seems reasonable, right?). The 3rd level kobolds are each aided four times, for a total of +20 to their roll. Which means that these little jerks are routinely cranking out mechanical traps with a DC of 30 on the Craft check.

Congratulations, your kobold tribe can now defend itself with CR 7-10 traps!

Ganurath
2009-01-16, 03:42 PM
How big is a kobold tribe, per the Monster Manual?



We'll average that out to two hundred twenty K1, eleven K3, two K5, and a K7, along with 7 dire weasels. They occupy an underground setting, mined out to their liking.

Now then, being lawful creatures, kobolds work well in concert. They also tend to have a fairly strong sense of community over individual. As such, presume that they have a plan for dealing with invaders.

For this group of kobolds, we will presume that acutal skill points are invested by every member of the tribe into Craft (trapmaking). At first level, every kobold warrior has 8 skill points to spend. We'll go ahead and put 2 into Craft, giving them a total of +4 to the skill. Not great, but good enough to aid the higher level characters.

The 3rd level kobolds are all rogues. Max out Hide, Move Silently, Craft (trapmaking), and Disable Device, amongst other skills. A 3rd level Kobold Rogue should easily manage a +12 to Craft.

The 5th level kobolds are rogues as well, now they've got a +14 at least to Craft.

Now, figure out how many kobolds could conceivably work together to build a single trap. Let's say five (seems reasonable, right?). The 3rd level kobolds are each aided four times, for a total of +20 to their roll. Which means that these little jerks are routinely cranking out mechanical traps with a DC of 30 on the Craft check.

Congratulations, your kobold tribe can now defend itself with CR 7-10 traps!Craft is a class skill for Sorcerors. Now you're making magical traps too! The Heterodynes are going to be jealous...

Twilight Jack
2009-01-16, 03:45 PM
Craft is a class skill for Sorcerors. Now you're making magical traps too! The Heterodynes are going to be jealous...

I had not forgotten. I purposefully left that possibility out in order to point out the possibilities before magic ever got involved.

Kami2awa
2009-01-16, 06:01 PM
A nasty thing to do would be to set up traps along the escape routes from the lair of a nasty monster. The players encounter the monster, get weakened, and have to run. They don't check for traps as they run, so they run straight into the traps (which could be along the route they came in by, if set up so they are only sprung by people running in one direction) in their already weakened state. The traps weaken them further and prevent their retreat, and they then have to deal with the monster coming up behind.

Altima
2009-01-16, 08:18 PM
How big is a kobold tribe, per the Monster Manual?

We'll average that out to two hundred twenty K1, eleven K3, two K5, and a K7, along with 7 dire weasels. They occupy an underground setting, mined out to their liking.


That's probably just the tribe's warriors--then there are the pregnant women, the children...and remember, kobolds breed at a rate that makes rabbits envious.

With that in mind, kobolds may purposely decide against building such deadly traps, because their tribes would quickly outgrow their environs and quickly run down their food supply. After all, in the heart of their fortress, who's gonna cull their numbers? Kobolds purposely do suicidal tactics for this specific reason! Oh, how the adventurers must feel used--so dirty. They don't even get a kiss afterwards!

So, if kobolds were to rule the world, that'd be an interesting mechanic. Basically, a group of kobolds say screw it about being on the bottom rung of the world ladder (and let's say their leader is a kobold with a crimson cloak...we'll call him...Crimson Cloak!). They fort up that makes anyone who tries to take them out die a horrible, painful death. They then grow too large and decide to sack a local humanoid city. These new guys move into the town then proceed to turn it into a ruin city with an extensive tunnel network beneath it. The process repeats, constantly linking the new conquests together, creating a kobold empire...I suddenly know how the Underdark came to be.

Anyway, kobolds do put their community above all. In battle, the elders will be the ones who suicidally charge the PCs, probably with explosives strapped to them.

At any rate, getting off the subject of kobolds, how would anyone work with, say, a different species and location? For example, orcs in a mountain, bugbears in the woods...you know, medium sized creatures.

Myou
2009-01-17, 09:36 AM
At any rate, getting off the subject of kobolds, how would anyone work with, say, a different species and location? For example, orcs in a mountain, bugbears in the woods...you know, medium sized creatures.

Snakes on a plain?

(In D&D it also works with the 'plane' spelling of course.)

Raum
2009-01-17, 08:19 PM
At any rate, getting off the subject of kobolds, how would anyone work with, say, a different species and location? For example, orcs in a mountain, bugbears in the woods...you know, medium sized creatures.Find and use their strengths while minimizing weaknesses. Use the terrain, open terrain is best for offensive tactics and compartmentalized terrain is best for defense. Remember the effects of weather. Always consider visibility and it's flip side, concealment.

Consider your suggestion of bugbears in a forest. The bugbears' strengths are darkvision, scent, and stealth. They'll want to use them. Attacks at night from ambush are likely. To make the most of their strengths, they'll put lights out when possible, attack from concealment, attack and run to force their opponent to follow, attempt to split their opponents (running chases through dark forests come to mind), and concentrate against individuals.