Psichics

[Trenonian]

I seem to think that there have been psichics in OOTS, but I'm not sure. I think that that could enable a lot of hilarious plot devices...
Anyways, this is my first thread, so cut me some slack!

P.S. Durkon is awesome! :durkon:

[BRC]

In DnD, Psychics are referred to as "Psions", I don't know why. So far, exactly two have been mentioned. A fictional Psion in "The little Psion that could", and a blue goblin psion that Redcloak got to mindread O-Chul. So they do exist in the OOTS campaign setting.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Sangwaan might have been a Seer, a type of Psion. Also, that John Edwards-style psychic that Haley rescued might have Psion levels (although she did have a Rogue's mentality).

Oh yeah, and :durkon: does rock. I hope we get to see him cast more spells in the future.

:durkon: Thor's Might FTW!

[The Neoclassic]

So far, exactly two have been mentioned. A fictional Psion in "The little Psion that could", and a blue goblin psion that Redcloak got to mindread O-Chul.

And in the latter, they even made a comment about not being sure psionics were being used in the OotS world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) until then. :smallwink:

[factotum]

In DnD, Psychics are referred to as "Psions", I don't know why.

"Psion" is short for "Psionic", which is a real word meaning "pertaining to the telepathic, psychic or paranormal". Characters who can read minds and such are often referred to as "psionic" in fiction--D&D just picked that up and ran with it.

[Trenonian]

Thanks everybody!

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) is pretty definative. I was just curious. I've always liked the psichic stuff in D&D and such.
Hence the Mind Flayer.

Durkon and Thor are both awesome.

:durkon: = Awesome!

[Optimystik]

Sangwaan might have been a Seer, a type of Psion.

No, she uses magic. Psionic powers have no verbal component, but her spells do. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)

[hamishspence]

Psychic term is used routinely for powers in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, one class is called the Psychic Warrior, and there are rules to convert the Psionic Spell-like abilities of the Mind Flayer into XPH Psi-like abilities

Generally in D&D Psychic and Psionic are synonymous.

[Chronos]

So far, exactly two have been mentioned. A fictional Psion in "The little Psion that could", and a blue goblin psion that Redcloak got to mindread O-Chul.There's also one in On the Origin of PCs, among the adventurers whom Roy interviews to join the party.

And Elan called Roy a "future psychic" at one point, though I'm not sure that counts.

[Trenonian]

Yea, my real question was were there ever psichics in OOTS, and there are. I think that we must always assume that it is magic unless proven psichic, so yea.

Psichics = :durkon: > Magic Users
in awesomeness-levels

[Morty]

I've always been very happy with psions not appearing in OoTS except for being mentioned.

[Trenonian]

I'm certainly not complaining or saying that they need a bigger role or anything. I love this comic strip!!

In fact, I've already read through Anit-Heros, an unnofficial spin off of OoTS that is not quite as good, but still funny.

[amuletts]

If psionics were added they would need to be handled very carefully. I recently played in a game where they were handled badly and it completely destroyed my suspension of disbelief. Since none of the PCs are psionic there's probably little point.

That said the Mindflayer was most excellent :D Mindflayer-o-vision!

[Fredthefighter]

If psionics were added they would need to be handled very carefully. I recently played in a game where they were handled badly and it completely destroyed my suspension of disbelief. Since none of the PCs are psionic there's probably little point.

That said the Mindflayer was most excellent :D Mindflayer-o-vision!

I agree with you there, sometimes a Psion can seem way to powerful if you don't put in enough Psionic characters/monsters (e.g. 1 of the 5 characters is a Psion and none of the monsters are psionic)
And Mindflayer-o-vision totally rocked.

[lord_khaine]

I agree with you there, sometimes a Psion can seem way to powerful if you don't put in enough Psionic characters/monsters (e.g. 1 of the 5 characters is a Psion and none of the monsters are psionic)
And Mindflayer-o-vision totally rocked.

ehh, im sorry to say, that you are about 100% wrong here, psions are not quite as powerfull as core wizards, so there are no need to mix in psionic monsters.

edit.
and even so, mixing in psionic monsters would not do anything other than give the party a diversion from the standard members of the MM.

[Ron Miel]

I think that Elan is mildly psychic. He has the power to sense important plot points happening at a distance. DUN-DUN-DUUUUUN.

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair, he's not completely wrong, only wrong if he's not using the (default) psi-magic transparency rules. Psionics are far less powerful than arcane magic at higher tiers and vastly less versatile at all tiers - though they do make good blasters.

This is getting off-topic though, and it has been confirmed by linked comics that psionics do exist in OOtS.

[MReav]

There was also the psion that Roy interviewed when trying to gather his party together. He thought no to the offer..

[LurkerInPlayground]

Yea, my real question was were there ever psichics in OOTS, and there are. I think that we must always assume that it is magic unless proven psichic, so yea.

Psichics = :durkon: > Magic Users
in awesomeness-levels
Oh for the love of . . .
Spell "psychic" with a "Y" please. Your free pass wears off after you've seen other people spell it several times.

And as far as I'm concerned, psionics is magic.

[Optimystik]

Even with the Psionic-Magic transparency rules in play, 3.5 Psionics have quite a few advantages over traditional casters. Psionic powers never suffer from arcane spell failure due to armor for instance, so the only thing stopping a Psion from wearing say, chainmail is that they initially lack the proficiencies needed to do so. Powers also don't need any verbal, somatic or material components, even the potent powers like Reality Revision or Schism. In fact, you can even manifest powers when you can't move (grappling or pinned for instance) simply by making a concentration check. They don't need to prepare ahead of time and many powers can be augmented, keeping even low-tier powers useful at higher levels.

[Zevox]

Even with the Psionic-Magic transparency rules in play, 3.5 Psionics have quite a few advantages over traditional casters. Psionic powers never suffer from arcane spell failure due to armor for instance, so the only thing stopping a Psion from wearing say, chainmail is that they initially lack the proficiencies needed to do so. Powers also don't need any verbal, somatic or material components, even the potent powers like Reality Revision or Schism. In fact, you can even manifest powers when you can't move (grappling or pinned for instance) simply by making a concentration check. They don't need to prepare ahead of time and many powers can be augmented, keeping even low-tier powers useful at higher levels.
Meanwhile, they possess a number of drawbacks. Although Psionics has numerous powers that are the equivalent of magic spells, there are many magic spells that it does not duplicate. The entire school of illusions, for instance, are largely beyond the ability of psionics to reproduce. Healing is also largely absent from Psionics, except for a few self-only Psychic Warrior-only powers that are largely too costly for their benefits. A Psionicist also suffers from similar problems to a Sorcerer in that they have a pretty limited number of powers they can learn, and doesn't even have the ability to change those powers later on like a Sorcerer does (and it may be worth nothing that a Sorcerer can gain most of the benefit Psionicists have from having power points instead of spell slots by taking the Heighten Spell feat).

Augmentation is also not purely an advantage. Psionic powers have to be augmented to do more than their base damage (which is a bit like forcing a wizard to use a higher spell slot to do more damage with his spells), while magic spells just do extra damage automatically because you're a higher level. Metapsionic powers are also less powerful than metamagic spells since the power points used to activate them count against augmentation costs, meaning that for instance an empowered energy bolt from a psionicist will always do at least 2d6 damage less than an empowered lightning bolt from a wizard. That really hampers things like Quicken Power or Twin power, with their 6 power point cost (meaning, to reuse the comparison, that a quickened energy bolt from a psionicist will always be at least 6d6 damage behind a quickened lightning bolt from a wizard). They also have to deal with Psionic Focus to use metapsionics, and the only way to make that easy is with the Psionic Meditation feat. Their equivalent of familiars, psicrystals, also come as a feat rather than a class feature.

Really, it seems to me that they're about on par with each other in terms of how powerful they are. Each has its advantages and drawbacks, each has some pretty overpowered abilities at its disposal at various points (though it is hard to argue anything in the core 3.5 magic system is as overpowered as psionics' Ego Whip... *shudders*). And each stomps the hell out of non-magical/psionic classes, at least as long as their spells/power points last.

Zevox

[JaxGaret]

Really, it seems to me that they're about on par with each other in terms of how powerful they are. Each has its advantages and drawbacks, each has some pretty overpowered abilities at its disposal at various points (though it is hard to argue anything in the core 3.5 magic system is as overpowered as psionics' Ego Whip... *shudders*). And each stomps the hell out of non-magical/psionic classes, at least as long as their spells/power points last.

Zevox

Agreed for the most part, though I think Glitterdust is about on par with Ego Whip.

And the powers list seems a bit more balanced than the spells list.

[magic9mushroom]

Thanks everybody!

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) is pretty definative. I was just curious. I've always liked the psichic stuff in D&D and such.
Hence the Mind Flayer.

Durkon and Thor are both awesome.

:durkon: = Awesome!

It's spelled Psychic. And usually called Psionic within D&D.

:)

[lord_khaine]

Agreed for the most part, though I think Glitterdust is about on par with Ego Whip.

And the powers list seems a bit more balanced than the spells list.

agree, and a bit higher up in levels we also have Black tentacles, that spell is seriously nasty against most medium sized opponents.

[Optimystik]

Zevox, your point about augmentation is valid, but keep in mind that most augmentations increase not only the damage, but the save DC as well. Against an enemy with high saves, you can literally double the damage of your spell with one extra power point. It's like Heighten Spell in that regard, but without needing a feat. Also, unlike Heighten Spell it has no cap.

For the "less spells" point, psions get more bang for their buck with augmentation. A telepath can pick up Psionic Dominate, for instance, 2 spell levels before Dominate Person, yet it can be augmented to match Dominate Monster. Similarly, Energy Bolt makes use of not one, but 4 different elements, giving that spell a versatility that Scorching Ray can't match.

As for healing, arcane casters don't have access to healing magic either. Being able to use both arcane-only spells (e.g. dominate person and teleport) and heal yourself makes psions extremely versatile, no matter how limited the heals are. Give your average wizard Body Adjustment for instance, and he becomes a far more dangerous opponent.

I agreed with everything else in your post.

[Zevox]

Zevox, your point about augmentation is valid, but keep in mind that most augmentations increase not only the damage, but the save DC as well. Against an enemy with high saves, you can literally double the damage of your spell with one extra power point. It's like Heighten Spell in that regard, but without needing a feat. Also, unlike Heighten Spell it has no cap.
True (though I'd correct that you should have said two extra power points in that second sentence, since for the most part it takes 2 pp to augment the DC of powers), except that last point. It does cap. You can never spend more power points on a power than your current level in your manifesting class. There are a couple of things that can boost that, but they both carry sizeable drawbacks (the "Overchannel" feat, which does damage to you when you use it, and a Wilder's Wild Surge class ability, which carries the risk of enervation, which will daze you and drain even more power points from you). Now, if you were referring to the ability to augment powers beyond the equivalent of 9th-level spells, you're right, but you can only do that for +1 DC before hitting epic levels, and once you hit those all semblance of balance is pretty much eradicated anyway.

There is also one obvious drawback to augmentation that hasn't been mentioned here yet: it burns through power points very fast. While an arcane caster forcibly splits up his spells known/prepared into the various levels available to him, a Psion can augment his powers to greater heights at will, but by doing so will burn through his supply of power points far faster than a spellcaster will his supply of spells. Greater versatility, but also far easier to render yourself useless if you're not careful.


For the "less spells" point, psions get more bang for their buck with augmentation. A telepath can pick up Psionic Dominate, for instance, 2 spell levels before Dominate Person, yet it can be augmented to match Dominate Monster. Similarly, Energy Bolt makes use of not one, but 4 different elements, giving that spell a versatility that Scorching Ray can't match.
True. Though again, spellcasters can duplicate much of this if they wish. The Archmage PrC, for instance, can grant similar energy versatility, as will some non-core feats (not sure what book they're from, but they're in the Divine section of the SRD - Energy Substitution, and something psions cannot do, subdual substitution, which lets spellcasters cast spells that do non-lethal damage). Granted though, these will never completely duplicate the energy versatility available to a Psion. That is one of the things that makes Psions excellent blasters, even compared to Sorcerers.

And while Psionic Dominate does come early, you exaggerate the comparison between it and its arcane counterparts. Psions get it only one spell level before Dominate Person is available to arcane casters, and cannot augment it to match Dominate Monster until 17th level - the same level arcane casters get Dominate Monster. They also have the problem that its duration is by default concentration, not 1 day per caster level, and they have to augment it to bolster that, so they can't even have it match Dominate Person in effectiveness until level 11, one spell level after arcane casters get Dominate Person. Though to balance that they can get parts of the effect of Dominate Monster earlier that an arcane caster gets that spell.


As for healing, arcane casters don't have access to healing magic either. Being able to use both arcane-only spells (e.g. dominate person and teleport) and heal yourself makes psions extremely versatile, no matter how limited the heals are. Give your average wizard Body Adjustment for instance, and he becomes a far more dangerous opponent.
Body Adjustment is a pretty inefficient way of healing. Effectively, it's a 3rd-level spell slot for 1d12 hp, and an additional 1d12 for every spell slot higher you raise it, and has no way to add a set amount to it the way a Cleric adds his caster level to his cure spells' healing. That's quite bad, really - only an average of 6.5 hp per dice, so he has to burn a lot of power points to get any substantial healing out of it, unless he rolls very well. Plus it's a self-only power*, and so useless to anyone else in your party (unless he also knows Empathic Transfer, which in addition to being an Egoist-only power will mean the Psion in question winds up burning through a ton of power points shifting the group's hp around). Compared to any Cleric's healing spells, it's all but a waste of time.

Honestly, give a Wizard an arcane equivalent of Body Adjustment, and I doubt he'd ever prepare it, unless he was hopelessly unable to acquire healing potions or the aid of a Cleric. It's just not going to be as useful a use of a spell slot as, well, most other spells in general. Though I could see a wand, ring, or other magic item using it as potentially quite useful to a Wizard, assuming it was using an augmented version of it.

*Actually, most Psionic buff powers are self-only, which is a disadvantage compared to casters. You'll never see a Psion manifesting, say, Animal Affinity on an ally to boost one of his stats the way a spellcaster will cast Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, or the like on his, because he simply can't. He can strengthen himself all he likes, but if the rest of the group wants the benefits of his powers, they're SOL.

You'll also note that Dominate Person and Teleport are both discipline-restricted powers, meaning no one Psion can have both, and many Psions cannot have either. That's another balancing aspect to Psions - where any Wizard can learn any spell from a school unless they voluntarily banned it, and any Sorcerer can always learn any spell from their list, there are a large number of powers only available to Psions of specific disciplines. The best blaster powers are only available to Kineticists, the best travel powers only to Nomads, the best divination-style powers only to Seers, and so on. You can get some of these powers via the feat Expanded Knowledge, sure, but there are usually better feats for a Psion to pick, and Expanded Knowledge nets you only one power each time you take it, so it can be a very costly workaround if you want several powers from other disciplines.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Epic levels were indeed what I was referring to when I mentioned augmentation's lack of a cap. Heighten spell has a hard cap at 9th level, and so benefits a level 38 caster no more than a level 28 one.

Balance may indeed be out the window at that point, but an advantage is an advantage. :smallsmile:

As for burning through your power points, it will hardly matter if you only have a few encounters a day. No matter how large the pool gets, a night's rest will replenish it completely.

I'll stop here because I do agree with you. I suppose I just find Psions interesting because it's a form of "magic" that could practically work in the modern world. Which reminds me, I need to see that movie "Push" that's coming out soon... :smallbiggrin:

[LurkerInPlayground]

Even with the Psionic-Magic transparency rules in play, 3.5 Psionics have quite a few advantages over traditional casters. Psionic powers never suffer from arcane spell failure due to armor for instance, so the only thing stopping a Psion from wearing say, chainmail is that they initially lack the proficiencies needed to do so. Powers also don't need any verbal, somatic or material components, even the potent powers like Reality Revision or Schism. In fact, you can even manifest powers when you can't move (grappling or pinned for instance) simply by making a concentration check. They don't need to prepare ahead of time and many powers can be augmented, keeping even low-tier powers useful at higher levels.
I'll assume this is somewhat directed at me. If not, excuse my presumptuousness.

But when I say "psionics is magic." I mean that it's essentially just a different system of magic with a different label slapped on it. That it has its own set of strengths or weaknesses does little to change the fact that "psionics" is still essentially magic. I'm working miraculous feats through supernatural means.

Whether or not they interact with each other is wholly irrelevant since that just says, "there's this other sort of magic that interacts with this sort of magic in this fashion."

The OP is essentially saying that psionics is better because he thinks it's the more exotic magic. He likes the theme they wrap it up in. That's fine, he's entitled to that.

I'm merely pointing out that I don't have any particular bias based-on fluff.

[Zevox]

Epic levels were indeed what I was referring to when I mentioned augmentation's lack of a cap. Heighten spell has a hard cap at 9th level, and so benefits a level 38 caster no more than a level 28 one.

Balance may indeed be out the window at that point, but an advantage is an advantage. :smallsmile:
*shrugs* If you insist.


I suppose I just find Psions interesting because it's a form of "magic" that could practically work in the modern world.
Eh? Not sure what you mean by this.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

@ Lurker: I was actually responding to Glyphstone.

@ Zevox: I meant that "Magic" wouldn't fit as well in a modern world (guns, computers, motorcycles) as psionics would. No need for arbitrary gestures, gobbledygook, or bat guano.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Well the whole appeal of hermetic magic falls apart when you can just circulate PDF copies of spellbooks and compile them in a private database.

[magic9mushroom]

Epic levels were indeed what I was referring to when I mentioned augmentation's lack of a cap. Heighten spell has a hard cap at 9th level, and so benefits a level 38 caster no more than a level 28 one.

Balance may indeed be out the window at that point, but an advantage is an advantage. :smallsmile:

As for burning through your power points, it will hardly matter if you only have a few encounters a day. No matter how large the pool gets, a night's rest will replenish it completely.

I'll stop here because I do agree with you. I suppose I just find Psions interesting because it's a form of "magic" that could practically work in the modern world. Which reminds me, I need to see that movie "Push" that's coming out soon... :smallbiggrin:

Improved Heighten Spell?

[Optimystik]

Improved Heighten Spell?

Requires 2 feats, where augment requires none.

[Lycanthromancer]

I meant that "Magic" wouldn't fit as well in a modern world (guns, computers, motorcycles) as psionics would. No need for arbitrary gestures, gobbledygook, or bat guano.Seriously? You think that mixing volatile agents and hurling them at your foes to create a fireball, or creating static electricity that you then ground in your enemies for a lightning bolt, or watching your scrying target on a cathode tube (ie, a TV), and taking notes in a special form of mathemagical pseudoscientific notation, are more magical than focusing your mind to bend reality to your will?

You'd better stay away from modern technology, because you might just have to start burning witches at the stake...

That's what I hate about most types of "magic" in D&D. They're way too sci-fi, and don't simulate any of the magic in any fantasy fiction story I've EVER read. Psionics ("mind-magic") does it so much better it's pathetic for anyone to accuse the psi-crowd of being "sciency" at ALL.

[Optimystik]

Seriously? You think that mixing volatile agents and hurling them at your foes to create a fireball, or creating static electricity that you then ground in your enemies for a lightning bolt, or watching your scrying target on a cathode tube (ie, a TV), and taking notes in a special form of mathemagical pseudoscientific notation, are more magical than focusing your mind to bend reality to your will?

You'd better stay away from modern technology, because you might just have to start burning witches at the stake...

The components for the spells you mentioned bear at best a passing relationship with modern chemistry and physics. You might as well be powering them solely with your mind, because generating enough of a static charge to create lightning from a tuft of fur and a tiny glass rod is hardly any more scientific than spontaneous electropsychokinesis. The same is true for powering a self-propelled conflagration using a pinch of guano. :smallsigh:


That's what I hate about most types of "magic" in D&D. They're way too sci-fi, and don't simulate any of the magic in any fantasy fiction story I've EVER read. Psionics ("mind-magic") does it so much better it's pathetic for anyone to accuse the psi-crowd of being "sciency" at ALL.

I didn't say psionics were "sciency," just that they'd fit better in a modern setting. That was more of a reference to the arbitrariness of the verbal and somatic components of most spells than their materials and foci, however.