All In Favor Of Kicking Celia Say Aye

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Im so sick of her ruining everything in this comic.

[The_Void]

Such as what exactly?

[Assassin89]

Nay. Just because you consider one character annoying, does not mean that the Giant will remove said character unless he plans to.

[fang_q]

Aye! I am sick of her too.

[Kish]

Nay. (text)

[Kaytara]

I believe Kwarkpudding's recent Iron Avatarist entry says it best: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5617846&postcount=47 ^^

I don't mind Celia. She's been making things complicated. I like it when things in a story get complicated. :)

[TengYt]

Yeah, the plot would be solved all too easily without everyone's favourite annoying airhead.

[MickJay]

It's a sign you're doing too well if DM attaches an annoying NPC that ruins everything to your group ;)

[Tempest Fennac]

I love that avatar. My problem with Celia is that she acts like she's always right while being pretty much completely out of her depth constantly (eg: she decided to ignore Haley telling her to stay away from Greysky with her excuse for going mentioning that she somehow didn't seem to be aware of what was happening, even thought the situation wasn't complicated at all).

[ericgrau]

Aye.

Whatever you may think of her motivations, her actions are worse than Belkar's. It's time to pull a Miko or, more likely/practically, some swift distrust.

EDIT: Enough money to rez that many enemies is as bad as saving that many enemies which is as bad or worse than killing that many people (why else would you resort to killing in the first place?). i.e., I'd put Celia on par with a mass murderer or worse. She's certainly not trying to be, but Haley needs to be careful around her just the same.

[lonewolf23k]

I'm willing to cut Celia a little slack... She's just a bit naive about how things work in the real world (like ignoring the fact that Laws and Diplomacy only really work when both parties are somewhat equal in strength).

And in the case of the latest issue's recent development, part of it is kind of Haley's fault...

After all, if she'd just told the rest of the party she needed that loot to pay for her Father's ransom, maybe they'd understand.

[Järnblomma]

Nay! Good God, nay! I'm sick of the solution "fight, win, fight, lose temprarily, win, fight, win, fight, lose temporarily, win" and how it ruins most comics. I like Celia, I think she's good fun, I think it was great and working of her to do that pact. It's money, for chrissakes, sure, it's a lot of money, but she'll find a way out of it to save her father. Of which Celia knew nothing of, by the way. She thinks it's money she has given away.

Seriously, stop hating characters so much. It's unhealthy. Disliking them, fine by me, hating them? Over the top.

[Lissou]

I'm willing to cut Celia a little slack... She's just a bit naive about how things work in the real world (like ignoring the fact that Laws and Diplomacy only really work when both parties are somewhat equal in strength).

And in the case of the latest issue's recent development, part of it is kind of Haley's fault...

After all, if she'd just told the rest of the party she needed that loot to pay for her Father's ransom, maybe they'd understand.

Yeah, I was going to point that out. Haley can't go around lying to everyone and then be upset that people didn't take the truth into account. It's very Harrypotterish (all the adults seem to be doing that. They lie, everybody else does stuff because they don't know the truth, and it backfires).

So, I'm going to go with Nay. I don't mind Celia, she's one of the only realistic characters. It's nice to have a preview of what would happen if normal people were sent into DnD world.

Also, Celia probably doesn't realise how much Haley got, either, since she lost that money. For that matter, can the guild now exactly how much money they need 50% of? She could probably give less. Actually, she would pretty much have to... 50% of everything she's stolen since the beginning of the story? She doesn't nearly has enough.

Celia found a way to get Roy raised, and that advances the plot. It also looks like the subplot with Haley's father might come into play in not too long. I'd say all in all, it's a good development for the story.

[tcrudisi]

After all, if she'd just told the rest of the party she needed that loot to pay for her Father's ransom, maybe they'd understand.

You are absolutely right. It's Haley's fault that she doesn't want the rest of the party to know that she's a much better person than she lets on.

How does that change what a horrible person Celia is? Even if Celia had known, do you think that her goody-goody butt would have changed her actions? She still would have struck that same agreement, whether out of guilt for the slain murderers or because she felt it was the only way to save their butts.

The former is so mind-boggingly ... I'm not even sure what the right word is. If they were good people she was trying to bring back, I'd say pure. But they aren't. They are extremely evil. These were thieves and people trying to murder them - including Celia! But I can't say that it was 100% evil, either, because what she is wanting to do is good at it's core. So who knows what it is.

The latter, on the other hand, is completely ignorant. She was so determined to do things her way, that she was willing to backstab Haley to prove that negotiations could work. Despite the fact that it only worked in this case because Haley kept her alive long enough to find the only thief in the raiding party willing to negotiate, who also happened to be high enough rank that his negotiations matter. All this, and the negotiations still may have meant nothing if Haley and Belkar had not kicked butt to show their strength.

Based on what I've seen of Celia's personality of late, I just do not feel that any knowledge of Haley's father would have changed what she did.

[omgpeachsnapple]

You are absolutely right. It's Haley's fault that she doesn't want the rest of the party to know that she's a much better person than she lets on.

How does that change what a horrible person Celia is? Even if Celia had known, do you think that her goody-goody butt would have changed her actions? She still would have struck that same agreement, whether out of guilt for the slain murderers or because she felt it was the only way to save their butts.

The former is so mind-boggingly ... I'm not even sure what the right word is. If they were good people she was trying to bring back, I'd say pure. But they aren't. They are extremely evil. These were thieves and people trying to murder them - including Celia! But I can't say that it was 100% evil, either, because what she is wanting to do is good at it's core. So who knows what it is.

The latter, on the other hand, is completely ignorant. She was so determined to do things her way, that she was willing to backstab Haley to prove that negotiations could work. Despite the fact that it only worked in this case because Haley kept her alive long enough to find the only thief in the raiding party willing to negotiate, who also happened to be high enough rank that his negotiations matter. All this, and the negotiations still may have meant nothing if Haley and Belkar had not kicked butt to show their strength.

Based on what I've seen of Celia's personality of late, I just do not feel that any knowledge of Haley's father would have changed what she did.

Agreed. Ceila just seems to be on some sort of "change the world & do everything my way" vendetta.

[Lizard Lord]

Nay.

Her mindset brings new perspective to the story. I would not have it removed just because it she an inconvenience to the OotS. If you really want her removed just because she screws up allot then you might as well say the same for Elan. And if you asked for Elan to be kicked out, I would have to reach though the internet and smack you. Like Elan she tries the best she

Also, even though I do not completely agree with them, her beliefs are not bad beliefs. I applaud her for trying her best to find a non-violent solution.

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with tcrudisi. How is Celia realistic, though? I know that people from the real world (for the most part) wouldn't be comfortable with killing things, but I'd have thought most of them would have followed Haley's orders due to her having a clue about things (and they'd probably have the sense to not get obnoxious due to perfectly valid critircisms, eg, when Haley was ranting about Celia losing Roy's body). I'm generally opposed to violence, but if I was in that situation, I'd have no problems with killing every last Thieves Guild member who tried attacking me.

[tcrudisi]

So, I'm going to go with Nay. I don't mind Celia, she's one of the only realistic characters. It's nice to have a preview of what would happen if normal people were sent into DnD world.

Whoa. I know exactly what I would do if it was me instead of Celia. 1) I help Haley. I'm not good at killing people nor would I want to. But I would help her, even if it meant hiding behind something and hollering out when something dangerous was approaching. 2) If I did think that negotiations would do something, I would make sure to tell Haley everything the moment I was alone with her. The very moment. After all, friendship is too important to do something like take half of her money then stand there with a smug look and gloat about how I just trampled all over her principles.


Also, Celia probably doesn't realise how much Haley got, either, since she lost that money. For that matter, can the guild now exactly how much money they need 50% of? She could probably give less. Actually, she would pretty much have to... 50% of everything she's stolen since the beginning of the story? She doesn't nearly has enough.

Does that matter? She stole from Haley, pure and simple. And yes, from Celia's misguided moral system, anything Haley looted would count as stolen, so I count that dragon horde as stolen, at least from Celia's perspective (but not from anyone else's. This is a D&D world).


Celia found a way to get Roy raised, and that advances the plot. It also looks like the subplot with Haley's father might come into play in not too long. I'd say all in all, it's a good development for the story.

She was the one who refused to listen to Haley to begin with and got Roy turned into a golem. She has refused to listen to Haley at pretty much every step. At the end of #620, I would have said that Celia advanced the plot, but after this comic, I think she stalled it. As it was, Belkar and Haley had Bozzok down. Once he's down, the guild attack on them falters, then they go get Roy's body back. Who's going to stop them? Not the guild at this point. Then they know where a priest (of Loki?) was, so perhaps he could do the ressurection, or perhaps they get another priest. Either way, the major threat to them is disposed of, so they can do all this at their leisure. The thieve's guild would not have tried to stop them.

[tcrudisi]

Her mindset brings new perspective to the story. I would not have it removed just because it she an inconvenience to the OotS. If you really want her removed just because she screws up allot then you might as well say the same for Elan. And if you asked for Elan to be kicked out, I would have to reach though the internet and smack you. Like Elan she tries the best she

Also, even though I do not completely agree with them, her beliefs are not bad beliefs. I applaud her for trying her best to find a non-violent solution.

Yes, it is a new perspective. No, I would not remove it because she's an inconvenience. You are correct, Elan is many times an inconvenience.

But what does Elan have that Celia doesn't that makes him useful to the Order? 1.) He follows directions. Oh boy, is that a big one. To work in a group, you have to know how to work within the group. That means knowing when someone else is in their element and letting them take over. This is obviously Haley's element and Celia has done nothing but ignore her since they hit Greysky. 2.) He's funny. I can't stress how important this is to a comic strip. 3.) He's a bard. Okay, that's more for me, but bard's need more love. 4.) He may be inept, but he somehow manages to overcome his obstacles while doing so within party dynamics. His illusions suck, but they work. He's was not good at combat for a long time, but he tried. 5.) He's never backstabbed anyone in the comic like Celia has.

Sure, Celia may have tried to find the non-violent solution, and that does deserve applauding. But she's not trying to work within the group. A group which has already shown it knows what is going on, whereas she has constantly shown her ignorance through this whole subplot. That is why Elan is much, much better than Celia.

[Mauve Shirt]

She is completely out of her element and needs to stop ignoring Haley's instructions. I have no idea what Haley is going to do now.

[The_Void]

I'm glad she has flaws. She has her morals, but she tries to force them on others too much. Her intentions are good in her opinion, but not in everyone elses. She is ignorant of the life of humans and other earth-dwelling creatures. And that's what makes her a great character. Because she is flawed, three-dimensional, real. This is a comic where one of the most beloved protagonists is a sociopathic serial killer. These characters have flaws, and thats why I love them.

[Taljen]

Aye. She's twice as self righteous and superior than Miko, and ten times as annoying. Now Haley's back to square one with her dad. At least killing Shojo was dramatic, Celia is more like Gilligan. Just made of 100% fail.

[Enlong]

Aye. Considering she just crippled Haley's efforts to save her father, I think a swift kick is the least of what she deserves.

[Morty]

Nay. She does what she thinks it best and does it well. She had no idea Haley needs the money to save her father. And she managed to resolve a big conflict without causing more bloodshed. She's not "runing" everything. Yes, sometimes what she does is inconvenient to the Order. So what? Since when are protagonists supposed to have everything work like they want?

[Enlong]

Nay. She does what she thinks it best and does it well. She had no idea Haley needs the money to save her father. And she managed to resolve a big conflict without causing more bloodshed. She's not "runing" everything. Yes, sometimes what she does is inconvenient to the Order. So what? Since when are protagonists supposed to have everything work like they want?

What about Haley's goal of rescuing her father. She pretty much shot that one in the mouth.

[Renegade Paladin]

Nay. She does what she thinks it best and does it well. She had no idea Haley needs the money to save her father. And she managed to resolve a big conflict without causing more bloodshed. She's not "runing" everything. Yes, sometimes what she does is inconvenient to the Order. So what? Since when are protagonists supposed to have everything work like they want?
She managed to resolve the conflict by negotiating away nearly everything. It's the peace at all costs mentality, and any student of history can tell you how that works out.

You know, it occurs to me. She doesn't actually have power of attorney for Haley. This whole mess is non-binding on her, because she didn't give Celia authority to negotiate for her.

[lonewolf23k]

Aye. Considering she just crippled Haley's efforts to save her father, I think a swift kick is the least of what she deserves.

Well, she didn't know about that, did she? If Celia knew about that, she'd have argued against the 50% clause, in her client's defense.

And in response to arguments that she's "not realistic" because she's unwilling to kill, I should point out that out here in the real world, few civilized people are actually willing to kill other people, if only on a subconscious level. There's a reason why we put murderers in jail, y'know.

Celia is just reacting the way a person not raised in a violent pseudo-medieval fantasy world would to a harsh reality...

[Morty]

What about Haley's goal of rescuing her father. She pretty much shot that one in the mouth.

Goal she had no idea about.


She managed to resolve the conflict by negotiating away nearly everything. It's the peace at all costs mentality, and any student of history can tell you how that works out.

Of course it's a "peace at all costs" mentality. She's a lawyer in training, raised in a school that seems to look like modern ones, not an adventurer used to stab first and ask questions later. Can you blame her for wanting to avoid bloodshed? Bloodshed that might cost lives of innocent citizens of Greysky city caught in a war between crime bosses or Thieves' Guild mooks who'd die because their superiors are bastards.

[Enlong]

Well, she didn't know about that, did she? If Celia knew about that, she'd have argued against the 50% clause, in her client's defense.

And in response to arguments that she's "not realistic" because she's unwilling to kill, I should point out that out here in the real world, few civilized people are actually willing to kill other people, if only on a subconscious level. There's a reason why we put murderers in jail, y'know.

Celia is just reacting the way a person not raised in a violent pseudo-medieval fantasy world would to a harsh reality...

The fact that she didn't know that she did that doesn't change the fact that she did that.

And she has been raised in a violent pseudo-medieval fantasy world, so why should she act like someone who wasn't?

[Dacia Brabant]

Aye. She's twice as self righteous and superior than Miko, and ten times as annoying. Now Haley's back to square one with her dad. At least killing Shojo was dramatic, Celia is more like Gilligan. Just made of 100% fail.

What Miko had going for her, what made her a great character in fact, was that everything about her followed logically from how she was introduced. All development her character received (and she received a ton of it) built upon what we knew about her from the start. We may despise her for what she did, but that doesn't make her any less well-written.

Celia on the other hand, is all over the map. Is she the Exposition Fairy, nice and helpful to the heroes and making office-humor jokes? Is she a smart, well-spoken law student capable of changing arguments on the fly if she thinks it'll help her clients? Is she a hopeless romantic following her every whim to get her dead lover back? Is she a callow, ignorant, sheltered outsider desperately applying her personal morality in an uncaring world?

The answer apparently is all of those things, which is fine if she were meant as an exaggerated portrayal of the complicated psychology of a real-world person in a story about the extreme, sometimes absurd vicissitudes of reality. (re: a Dickens novel, or a soap opera.) Is that what OOTS is turning into? Dear God I hope not. :smalleek:

[LtNOWIS]

Haley's inability to bail out her father is not the heart of the current problem. Haley herself, for example, would rather spend money on magic arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) than hoarding it, nowadays. I figure she'd rather save the world and her party members first, than work on freeing her father. And a monetary solution is not the only one for a party of high-level adventurers.

The current problem is that half of all her total earnings as an adventurer likely puts Haley in some sort of super-debt, which is terrible both for her current goals, and her well-being in general.

[hamishspence]

Because she comes from the elemental plane of air and isn't used to the mortal plane?

[Enlong]

Also, Celia not only crippled all of Haley's future goals involving money, but she put Haley into this debt knowing that she had no money to pay them with! Or did she just forget that Haley doesn't have that kind of money anymore (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)?

[Forealms]

Aye.


It's a sign you're doing too well if DM attaches an annoying NPC that ruins everything to your group ;)

Definitely true, I know I've been in similar situations as the Order because an NPC did something stupid. Namely, the NPC swore too loudly in a monastery we were visiting, and the monks that attended it were a little... overzealous in their punishments.

[Morty]

Celia on the other hand, is all over the map. Is she the Exposition Fairy, nice and helpful to the heroes and making office-humor jokes? Is she a smart, well-spoken law student capable of changing arguments on the fly if she thinks it'll help her clients? Is she a hopeless romantic following her every whim to get her dead lover back? Is she a callow, ignorant, sheltered outsider desperately applying her personal morality in an uncaring world?


Who says she can't be all? Are all characters restricted to revolve around a single quirk?

[hamishspence]

we'll have to see how Hank reacts when he finds out- if he's going to pay anyway and put it on Haley's tab, or if trouble will break out again.

Celia is placing "the safety of the world" as embodied by having Roy to lead the party, above the financial wellbeing of one person.

As I recall, some people were insistant it was non-evil to place "safety of world" above the lives and rights of people- either Sapphire Guard massacring goblin children, or V killing Kubota without trial.

[Dacia Brabant]

Who says she can't be all? Are all characters restricted to revolve around a single quirk?

Good grief, read the next paragraph please, or at least quote it, and mabe even argue against it. :smallmad:


You know what? Forget it.

[Morty]

Good grief, read the next paragraph please, or at least quote it, and mabe even argue against it. :smallmad:

Why should I waste space? My comment was directed at your entire post: I see absolutely nothing wrong with Celia's behavoir not following a single, pre-set pattern. Because people don't work that way.


You know what? Forget it.

Well, if you want to get all offended instead of discussing stuff, I'm not the one to stop you.

[hamishspence]

the "they're evil" argument works better for monsters than NPCs, since "evil" for NPCs can simply mean anything from unrepentant conman who makes poor people poorer, to Well Intentioned Extremist who justifies evil acts on the grounds that it's "to keep civilization from collapsing"

added to which, Celia was convinced that the Thieves Guild represented the "lesser evil" in which case, to keep the "greater evils" back, they'll need numbers.

[Dairuka]

There is a perfectly viable reason to hate Celia that people are neglecting to notice. She is a lawyer.

[Gitman00]

Celia's presence here is a catalyst for conflict. This is necessary within a story. She's annoying, but she keeps us reading, to see how they're going to get out of the mess she's created.

That said, she annoys the bejesus out of me. She is naive, which I can deal with. She lectures Haley about killing (or anything else that she disagrees with, for that matter), which can be abrasive, but that's tolerable. She failed to save Roy's life with that talisman out of simple ignorance, which can't really be held against her.

Now, she may not know much about the world, but what makes her intolerable is that she refuses to defer to those who do. In her way, she's as self-righteous as Miko Miyazaki. Her naivete would be cute, if she was at all aware of it. She takes Roy's corpse to Greysky City in the face of advice from someone who knew the town, and who is a seasoned adventurer, and after a cursory apology, she goes into a rant about how she did what she thought was best. Her expression in #579, panel 4, indicates that in reality she's not the least bit remorseful for causing all this trouble, even as she admits she doesn't understand what's going on.

Now, it appears (though I admit I'm reading between the lines) as though she's deliberately used this "negotiation" as an opportunity to get what she wants, i.e. resurrecting Roy for her own selfish reasons, while punishing Haley for her life of crime. And again, the annoyed expression on her face, as though Haley has no right to be angry.

Mistakes are fine. Everyone makes bad decisions. But then you admit them, and you apologize to the people you hurt and alienated. About the only thing redeeming Celia at this point is her unfailing optimism. My opinion of her may improve if, once she truly comprehends the enormity of this blunder, she offers a heartfelt apology. From what I've observed thus far, I doubt it'll happen.


Also, Celia not only crippled all of Haley's future goals involving money, but she put Haley into this debt knowing that she had no money to pay them with! Or did she just forget that Haley doesn't have that kind of money anymore?

QFT.

[Kish]

Does that matter? She stole from Haley, pure and simple.
Of all the characters in the comic, none have less room to complain about a companion stealing from them than Haley.

There is a perfectly viable reason to hate Celia that people are neglecting to notice. She is a lawyer.
:smallsigh: Just as a fyi, at least one thread here got locked for "humorous" lawyer-bashing.

[Enlong]

Of all the characters in the comic, none have less room to complain about a companion stealing from them than Haley.

And few have less justification for the act than Celia.

[hamishspence]

until Haley starts handing money over, nothing has been stolen, merely "claimed" And since Haley has nothing on her, Celia hasn't taken anything.

[Mesfens]

Aye. I do very much wish something :smalleek: would happen to this interfering airhead. She is an unwanted influence in the party and contributes little other than exposition, and honestly, her role was served by her Azure City appearance already. Having her arbitrarily decide on "what's good for the party" without consulting the *actually experienced* senior members is the worst sort group dynamic, and soon her companions ought to dump her or worse. :smallamused:

These sorts of unwanted and detrimental moves on her part makes her a dead cow in a fresh seafood market.

[jidasfire]

Aye. I once played in a game with a Celia-like player. She hamstrung our group at every opportunity, to the point of refusing to help in the final battle of the campaign out a misplaced sense of self-righteousness. Her refusal to help ensured, or at least enabled, the deaths of most of the other characters, and the whole time, she looked at us like we were the crazy ones for defending ourselves.

I never thought I'd be wishing Nale and the Linear Guild were more successful in their murders, but they definitely spared the wrong guardian.

[Vulion]

Imma gonna say...Nay! At least until the next comic is up!

[hamishspence]

just how detrimental are they? They want Roy alive. They have no cash. Unless Durkon turns up real soon, apart from theft and adventuring (risky given the time constraints) mortgaging someone's future earnings might be the only way to do it, if we assume we are on a time track.

Compared to Miko's "pushing the countdown to doom forward" by blowing up the gate, plus killing Shojo, Celia's actions aren't obstructing, but furthering, their goals, if (a big if) Hank ressurrects Roy even after he's told they have no money on them, claiming on Haley's future earnings.

[Gitman00]

until Haley starts handing money over, nothing has been stolen, merely "claimed" And since Haley has nothing on her, Celia hasn't taken anything.

Semantics, and you know it. Technically, charging an exorbitant amount on someone else's credit card isn't stealing until the owner pays the bill, either. Obligating someone to an insurmountable debt (or any debt, for that matter) without their permission is wrong, any way you slice it.

[tcrudisi]

Of all the characters in the comic, none have less room to complain about a companion stealing from them than Haley.

You are correct - Haley doesn't have much room to complain for this. But the readers do. If a rogue steals from someone, that makes sense. If an elemental intentionally goes about stealing from a friend out of some misguided sense of the way things should be (as opposed to are), that doesn't make sense.

Also, LtNOWIS, Haley made a choice to purchase magical arrows to try to fight the force of evil which will destroy this world. I would say that still counts as rescuing her father. Instead of bailing him out first, she's helping to ensure that he survives. Both ways the money is going towards the rescue of her father.

[Zordrath]

Aye.

Now, I'm all for complicating things for the Order, but remember when Xykon did that? Or Redcloak, or Elan, or Belkar? There was a clear difference - they were still awesome while doing it. They all have flaws, but each of them also has qualities, even if it's only the 'Cool Lines' feat.

Celia, on the other hand, is boring at her very best, irritating at her usual and infuriating right now. There is absolutely no saving grace - she's neither as awesome as Xykon or Belkar, nor as funny as Elan, nor as interesting as Redcloak. She's the very first OOTS character I simply don't want to read about. There are other characters I didn't like as persons (Eugene, Miko), but I still enjoyed reading about them, because they were executed well.

[Ramidel]

Celia's an even bigger fruitcake than Elan, without Elan's character development or comedy. So...

NAY.

Yeah, you heard me. I don't like her, but that's really okay. She's screwing things up for Haley and making herself a target for everyone's sticksnuff fics, but I really can't see a sea of unfathomable hate if Elan jerked something up like this. And let's face it...the Order of the Stick needs at least someone who can screw the party over. In ages long forgotten, Elan was the one-stop shop for all your dumbass needs. Now that Julio Scoundrel has given Elan's brains a tune-up, there's no longer a Designated Moron. Everyone (except for Roy) has their own ways of tripping stuff up. Being an Outsider attorney is how Celia blows her share out of the water.

[JaxGaret]

Aye.

Now, I'm all for complicating things for the Order, but remember when Xykon did that? Or Redcloak, or Elan, or Belkar? There was a clear difference - they were still awesome while doing it. They all have flaws, but each of them also has qualities, even if it's only the 'Cool Lines' feat.

Celia, on the other hand, is boring at her very best, irritating at her usual and infuriating right now. There is absolutely no saving grace - she's neither as awesome as Xykon or Belkar, nor as funny as Elan, nor as interesting as Redcloak. She's the very first OOTS character I simply don't want to read about. There are other characters I didn't like as persons (Eugene, Miko), but I still enjoyed reading about them, because they were executed well.

I'm sorry to say it, but I have to agree with this.

Even the reason for her accompanying the party is pretty thin. The only redeeming thing she's done for anyone in the party is *be Roy's girlfriend*, and as others have pointed out to me even that relationship isn't very serious. So why is she still around? My guess is she won't be for long after completely screwing over Haley like this. Now she's actively hindering them, rather than just being a neutral lump.

Unless, that is, the Giant changes something via the plot.

[MickJay]

I wonder where Roy's ghost went, it would be interesting to see what is his reaction to all this. Unless he finally gets resurrected, then the whole group dynamics would change dramatically.

[Roderick_BR]

Nay. She's annoying, yes, but I like her non-adventurer view on things.

Quoting a comic I read once: "god! you adventurers talk about death, life, zombies, and monsters, as if it were the most common thing in the world"

Yes, it was her fault for going into that city to start with, but she's trying to get things fixed (at Haley's wallet's cost, of course, but still).

[Berserk Monk]

Why stop at kicking? I know a couple wizards capable of casting 9th level evocation spells that could nuke her back to whatever plane she's from.

But yeah. Celia needs to leave the strip. She's ruining it and making me hate Roy for being attracted to her. I mean, Roy was probably just on the rebound after seeing Miko's a %^&*, so agreed to go out with the first female that seemed interested. Hell, he probably would have gone out with the MitD if it was a girl after Miko.

[Optimystik]

Aye.

Now, I'm all for complicating things for the Order, but remember when Xykon did that? Or Redcloak, or Elan, or Belkar? There was a clear difference - they were still awesome while doing it. They all have flaws, but each of them also has qualities, even if it's only the 'Cool Lines' feat.

Celia, on the other hand, is boring at her very best, irritating at her usual and infuriating right now. There is absolutely no saving grace - she's neither as awesome as Xykon or Belkar, nor as funny as Elan, nor as interesting as Redcloak. She's the very first OOTS character I simply don't want to read about. There are other characters I didn't like as persons (Eugene, Miko), but I still enjoyed reading about them, because they were executed well.

This, this, and more this.

AYE.


Why stop at kicking? I know a couple wizards capable of casting 9th level evocation spells that could nuke her back to whatever plane she's from.

I'd settle for a 5th-level (4th for clerics) abjuration.

[Morty]

Of all things I don't understand, Celia hate takes surprisingly high place on the "WTF list" for a forum reaction towards a fictional character. I thought I'll never see anything weirder than Miko debates, but I was wrong.

[Renegade Paladin]

Semantics, and you know it. Technically, charging an exorbitant amount on someone else's credit card isn't stealing until the owner pays the bill, either. Obligating someone to an insurmountable debt (or any debt, for that matter) without their permission is wrong, any way you slice it.
Take it from someone who knows; obligating people to gigantic debts without their permission is what lawyers do for a living. I currently have a pack of them attempting to take me from zero debt to owing over ten times my annual income; I fail to see why Celia, being a lawyer, would think anything of it.

[Berserk Monk]

Of all things I don't understand, Celia hate takes surprisingly high place on the "WTF list" for a forum reaction towards a fictional character. I thought I'll never see anything weirder than Miko debates, but I was wrong.

It's official! Celia is the new Miko! Why is it all of Roy's love interests eventually get utterly hated? Do you think at some point Roy had a thing for George Bush?

[TheNovak]

Nay.

I disagree with the argument that Celia's poorly written. She has demonstrated consistency in her moral compass, particularly concerning two things: don't kill, don't steal. She is very much Lawful Stupid, similiar to Miko but much further into the "Good" part of the alignment. Beyond this core, sure, she's worn several different hats, but that just shows she has the depth to take up these different roles while still being the same person.

I think that when Giant writes her, he writes her, not whatever she needs to be at the moment. She's the way she is because that's the character that Giant created, and that's how she interacts with the world around her. That's my personal definition of well-written.

But she is definitely Lawful Stupid. I think that's deliberate; Giant really likes tearing into the Lawful Good alignment, and thus we're getting a second example of how the "best" alignment can be taken horribly awry. She takes her beliefs to extremes, probably beyond the level of "realistic," which is a trait people seem to think she's supposed to have. I think, though, that that's the point...she's just as irrational and weird as everyone else, but in a different direction.

So yeah. Naive, annoying, even infuriating, but consistent and well-written. That's my take.

[David Argall]

I nominate Celia for NPC of the year, well, maybe month. She has provided some great laughs here and should stay in the story at least for the rest of this book. [It's not so easy to see how to keep her in the story once the party is reunited and on its way to the next gate.]

And those critics should remember that Roy seems attracted to women who annoy them. If we get rid of Celia, the next lass is going to be worse.

[Zordrath]

And those critics should remember that Roy seems attracted to women who annoy them. If we get rid of Celia, the next lass is going to be worse.
That's actually a pretty frightening point... :smalleek:

[MickJay]

That's certainly true. Kind of "respect the boss of yours, you can get one who's worse" :smallbiggrin:

[FoE]

Any time someone suggests I sympathize with Celia, I put myself in Haley's shoes.

OK, my friend Bill and I need to get medicine for our sick comrade Bob, so we venture out to get some. Bill thinks it would be a good idea to take a shortcut through the dangerous part of town, even though I tell him that it won't get him to the medicine shop. So Bill sneaks away while I'm not looking.

Now, Bill's wandering through the dangerous part of town and gets attacked by a group of thugs who say they are going to kill him. Bill won't defend himself because he doesn't believe in violence. I manage to get there in time to save him from the thugs by beating them up. Bill then empties out half of my bank account without my permission in order to pay for the thugs' medical bills.

You know what? I'm beating the s*** out of Bill.

[Kaytara]

It's possible Celia thinks that Haley brought all of this on herself, anyway, simply by having been in the Thieves Guild in the first place. It's not like thievery is an occupation Celia approves of.
Although, in this case, it seems strange that Celia would make Haley's reinstatement part of the deal. But that seemed strange to me anyway.

As for Celia being well-written, I completely agree with TheNovak. The other characters don't seem inconsistent in this way because they've never really been out of their comfort zones.

[Trazoi]

But she is definitely Lawful Stupid. I think that's deliberate; Giant really likes tearing into the Lawful Good alignment, and thus we're getting a second example of how the "best" alignment can be taken horribly awry. She takes her beliefs to extremes, probably beyond the level of "realistic," which is a trait people seem to think she's supposed to have. I think, though, that that's the point...she's just as irrational and weird as everyone else, but in a different direction.

So yeah. Naive, annoying, even infuriating, but consistent and well-written. That's my take.
I agree, however I would quibble that Celia is far more Stupid Good than Lawful Stupid. The way I see it, Lawful Stupid was like Miko and puts the emphasis on law: any injustice must be swiftly dealt with with exteme prejudice "Ho there, jaywalker! Feel the wrath of righteousness! slash-slash". Stupid Good is like Celia: "Hey, werewolves are people too! Don't attack them just because they're acting according to nature!". (See TV Tropes Link (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupidChaoticStupid)).

Anway, I like Celia. She's the fish out of water, and is needed to make things complicated for Haley. She's performing the same role of Elan to Haley's Roy right now.

[Zordrath]

When I say 'well-written', I don't mean 'consistent'. Celia has an excuse for not being 100% consistent, both in-story and a practical one - she was conceived at a time when the current events were not planned.

However, It's quite easy to create a character who is consistent, but utterly boring. The challenge lies in creating characters your readers want to actually follow. So far, all characters in OOTS have fulfilled this requirement for me, but Celia doesn't even come close. I know this is very subjective, but apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks so.


It's possible Celia thinks that Haley brought all of this on herself, anyway, simply by having been in the Thieves Guild in the first place. It's not like thievery is an occupation Celia approves of.
She did hear from Hank that Haley, or at least her father, stole from the rich and gave to the poor. Of course, this might not mean much to someone as frustratingly lawful as she is...

[FoE]

I'll note that the title of the thread just says "kicking Celia", whereas many people seem to think it is "kicking Celia out of the comic." I do think she deserves a slap upside the head.

[Morty]

Any time someone suggests I sympathize with Celia, I put myself in Haley's shoes.

OK, my friend Bill and I need to get medicine for our sick comrade Bob, so we venture out to get some. Bill thinks it would be a good idea to take a shortcut through the dangerous part of town, even though I tell him that it won't get him to the medicine shop. So Bill sneaks away while I'm not looking.

Now, Bill's wandering through the dangerous part of town and gets attacked by a group of thugs who say they are going to kill him. Bill won't defend himself because he doesn't believe in violence. I manage to get there in time to save him from the thugs by beating them up. Bill then empties out half of my bank account without my permission in order to pay for the thugs' medical bills.

You know what? I'm beating the s*** out of Bill.

This analogy is flawed, because Haley didn't really "save Celia from getting beaten up". Sure, she had Bozzok at her mercy, but killing Bozzok would mean the rest of the Thieve's Guild would somehow stop trying to kill them.
The amount of childish Celia-bashing baffles me to no end.

[Zordrath]

This analogy is flawed, because Haley didn't really "save Celia from getting beaten up".
True, she was giving her best to save Celia from being killed.

[Morty]

True, she was giving her best to save Celia from being killed.

And she was on a good way to get killed herself, because even after killing Bozzok she'd have to face the entire Thieve's Guild.

[FoE]

This analogy is flawed, because Haley didn't really "save Celia from getting beaten up". Sure, she had Bozzok at her mercy, but killing Bozzok would mean the rest of the Thieve's Guild would somehow stop trying to kill them.

But Haley did save Celia from Grubwiggler, or did you forget that portion of that comic?


The amount of childish Celia-bashing baffles me to no end.

We're not allowed to deride characters we don't like anymore? Did someone make a law against that?

Quickly, Mort, go to the Dominic Deegan thread! Alert them to the terrible news! Go, before it's too late! GOOOOOO!

[Raging Gene Ray]

And those critics should remember that Roy seems attracted to women who annoy them. If we get rid of Celia, the next lass is going to be worse.

Possible replacements for Celia:

Elan's hot mom
Lien
Julia
That little pink sock Roy puts on his hand and calls "Mitsy."

[Zordrath]

And she was on a good way to get killed herself, because even after killing Bozzok she'd have to face the entire Thieve's Guild.
So what?

We can assume that the people Bozzok brought with him are some of the Guild's strongest members, yet Belkar defeated even Crytal without any effort at all. There was no one in Pete's house who could threaten our heroes, and once they left it, the Thieves' Guild would have to find them again first, and muster a force strong enough to kill Belkar, while at the same time being busy with internal power struggles.

[Morty]

But Haley did save Celia from Grubwiggler, or did you forget that portion of that comic?

True. But I assumed that by "thughs" you meant the Thieve's Guild.


We're not allowed to deride characters we don't like anymore? Did someone make a law against that?

Quickly, Mort, go to the Dominic Deegan thread! Alert them to the terrible news! Go, before it's too late! GOOOOOO!

Do you really compare Celia to any of the "characters" in Dominic Deegan? That was low. My point is, Celia hasn't done anything to justify the amount of complaints she gets.


So what?

We can assume that the people Bozzok brought with him are some of the Guild's strongest members, yet Belkar defeated even Crytal without any effort at all. There was no one in Pete's house who could threaten our heroes, and once they left it, the Thieves' Guild would have to find them again first, and muster a force strong enough to kill Belkar, while at the same time being busy with internal power struggles.

In Pete's house, they took on guild members preety much one by one, or in small groups. In the city, they'd face them all at once. True, they'd have a chance to defeat them. But do you blame Celia for wanting to avoid bloodshed?

[FoE]

And she was on a good way to get killed herself, because even after killing Bozzok she'd have to face the entire Thieve's Guild.

WHAT BATTLE WERE YOU WATCHING?! The one I saw had Belkar and Haley basically slaughtering the entire force of thieves sent to kill them, including the guild's top assassin and their leader. Who's left? A few dozen low-level mooks who weren't part of the raid?


In Pete's house, they took on guild members preety much one by one, or in small groups. In the city, they'd face them all at once. True, they'd have a chance to defeat them. But do you blame Celia for wanting to avoid bloodshed?

Your assumption, again. For all we know the enire Thieves Guild was involved in that raid on Pete's house. And maybe any surviving members wouldn't act against Haley and Belkar, Mort, because they would be too terrified of the high-level PCs who just slaughtered thirty of their comrades.


My point is, Celia hasn't done anything to justify the amount of complaints she gets.

Face it, Mort, Celia's become the goddamn Scrappy of this comic. All she lacks is an irritating catchphrase like "PUPPY POWER!"

[Kish]

She did hear from Hank that Haley, or at least her father, stole from the rich and gave to the poor. Of course, this might not mean much to someone as frustratingly lawful as she is...
"40%, after reasonable expenses"? What that primarily means to me is that either Haley is not nearly as good a person as she thinks she is, or I have issues with Rich's interpretation of the "Chaotic" in "Chaotic Good."

[Raging Gene Ray]

Face it, Mort, Celia's become the goddamn Scrappy of this comic. All she lacks is an irritating catchphrase like "PUPPY POWER!"

No, at least Scrappy would try to fight.

[Zordrath]

But do you blame Celia for wanting to avoid bloodshed?

I blame her for apparently caring more about the well-being of the Thieves than Haley's... she's making the thieves look like the innocent victims, poor things who had to suffer for absolutely no reason at all.

And I'm still convinced killing Bozzok wouldn't have had any negative consequences for Haley, mainly because there'd be no one left in the Guild who could gain anything from killing her. They'd be busy establishing the new leadership, not repeating the mistakes of the old one.


"40%, after reasonable expenses"? What that primarily means to me is that either Haley is not nearly as good a person as she thinks she is, or I have issues with Rich's interpretation of the "Chaotic" in "Chaotic Good."
"Give everything to the poor" is all nice and dandy on paper, but an organization like the Thieves' Guild obviously has expenses to cover, and if they did not do that, they couldn't help anyone in the future.

[Ted The Bug]

Aye! Big time, she's just made things overly difficult, and not the entertaining Miko kind, but just the boring, "stoppit" kind.

[Morty]

WHAT BATTLE WERE YOU WATCHING?! The one I saw had Belkar and Haley basically slaughtering the entire force of thieves sent to kill them, including the guild's top assassin and their leader. Who's left? A few dozen low-level mooks who weren't part of the raid?

The capslocked sentences don't make the whole post look better. Anyway, I doubt they sent even the half of their forces to the Pete's house. They control all thieves in crime-ridden city, after all.


Face it, Mort, Celia's become the goddamn Scrappy of this comic. All she lacks is an irritating catchphrase like "PUPPY POWER!"

Like most "face it" statements, this is pure opinion. I don't see Celia as "scrappy"(ugh, TvTropes again:smallyuk:) at all. She's a character like any other. For her to be a "scrappy", she'd have to be constantly pushed into spotlight and glorified despite her screwups. She's not.


Your assumption, again.

How is my assumption worse than any other?


And I didn't compare Oots to Dominic Deegan. My argument is that if people who complain about Celia are "childish," then we might as well lock the DD threads.

Complaining about Celia isn't childish by itself. However, if those copmplains take the form of "Banish that ditz" or "puh-leeze Giant, kick her out of the strip", it looks childish.


I blame her for apparently caring more about the well-being of the Thieves than Haley's... she's making the thieves look like the innocent victims, poor things who had to suffer for absolutely no reason at all.

Well, there's a good chance many of those thieves were only after Haley and the rest because Bozzok told them to.

[Zordrath]

So committing murder because you were ordered to instead of because you wanted to makes it any better?

[Assassin89]

If we are to berate Celia, we should only lecture her rather than threatening her with violence. In case you forgot, lightning hurts.

[RoxMySox]

Aye, she's rather annoying.... =P

[Morty]

So committing murder because you were ordered to instead of because you wanted to makes it any better?

Not for the person murdered, so I don't blame Haley and Belkar for defending themselves. However, I also don't blame Celia for wanting to prevent futher bloodshed, even if she screwed up. Which isn't that big of a failure either, as she was forced to negotiate with people who wanted her dead before even graduating from school.

[Ara]

well.. i would not only kick her.. I would kill.. or "unmake" her.
where's the snarl when we need him/her/it
actually, when miko was alive, she at least spiced up the plot and made the strips "funny" in some sort of way
this Outsider is just messing things up, and by the way, making this story arc a lot longer (and with the giant not in his 100%, that may mean many weeks until we see a solution to the story)

[Kish]

"Give everything to the poor" is all nice and dandy on paper, but an organization like the Thieves' Guild obviously has expenses to cover, and if they did not do that, they couldn't help anyone in the future.
My point is that the phrasing screams "rationalization." And if you think Haley sincerely steals in order to help anyone who isn't her family* (remember, she thinks tips are a scam)...well, you've evidently been reading a different Haley than I have.

*And she even plans to charge him.

[Zordrath]

Not for the person murdered, so I don't blame Haley and Belkar for defending themselves. However, I also don't blame Celia for wanting to prevent futher bloodshed, even if she screwed up. Which isn't that big of a failure either, as she was forced to negotiate with people who wanted her dead before even graduating from school.
I can fully understand that she wants to prevents further bloodshed. However, agreeing to contribute an absurd amount of money towards raising the Thieves, a group of amoral murderers, from the dead at a time when the order desperately needs all the resources they can get, is a different thing entirely. Even without knowing about Haley's situation, that's just absurd.

[Kish]

I can fully understand that she wants to prevents further bloodshed. However, agreeing to contribute an absurd amount of money towards raising the Thieves, a group of amoral murderers, from the dead at a time when the order desperately needs all the resources they can get, is a different thing entirely. Even without knowing about Haley's situation, that's just absurd.
I feel obligated to interject here. Unless I'm reading the contract very wrong, the thieves are being resurrected out of the Guild purse. In other words:

What Haley gets: The Guild pays to resurrect every member who died in the fight, except Pete. The Guild also pays to resurrect Roy, after stealing his bones back. She gets her old room and membership card back.
What the Guild gets: 50% of what Haley steals, retroactive for the time she wasn't part of the Guild. Note: THIS IS A MUCH BETTER CONTRACT THAN HER ORIGINAL CONTRACT WITH THE GUILD. (In OtOoPCs, they took over 90% of what she stole.) Should Celia notice that the contract is still horrendous? Yes, but Haley or Ian or whoever committed her to her original employment contract should have known better then, too.

[Optimystik]

Of all things I don't understand, Celia hate takes surprisingly high place on the "WTF list" for a forum reaction towards a fictional character. I thought I'll never see anything weirder than Miko debates, but I was wrong.

So, you like every fictional character you've ever come across, ever?

And how is it weird? Celia is worse than Miko ever was - at least Miko was consistent.

[Quorothorn]

I love that avatar. My problem with Celia is that she acts like she's always right while being pretty much completely out of her depth constantly (eg: she decided to ignore Haley telling her to stay away from Greysky with her excuse for going mentioning that she somehow didn't seem to be aware of what was happening, even thought the situation wasn't complicated at all).

My thoughts exactly, Fennac.

I say aye: a swift kick to the leg would be cathartic. I wouldn't call her a bad character, but as a person, she is highly annoying these days, and far less useful (or funny) than, say, Belkar or Elan. Note that if the topic title had been "All In Favor Of Kicking Celia Off A Cliff Say Aye" I would have said nay. I'm leaning towards disliking her personally, certainly, but there are characters I have loathed with a great deal more fire (Cadsuane of WoT and Snape of HP, to name two), and she is neither really poorly-written nor too detrimental to my enjoyment of the comic.



we'll have to see how Hank reacts when he finds out- if he's going to pay anyway and put it on Haley's tab, or if trouble will break out again.

Celia is placing "the safety of the world" as embodied by having Roy to lead the party, above the financial wellbeing of one person.

As I recall, some people were insistant it was non-evil to place "safety of world" above the lives and rights of people- either Sapphire Guard massacring goblin children, or V killing Kubota without trial.

Those two are completely different situations: Kubota forfeited his financial well-being, life and rights through his repeated actions (such as sending assassins after Hinjo--on at least four separate occasions, by my count). The goblin children, what, forfeited theirs by being born goblins? The attack on the goblin village still ranks as possibly the most despicable action ever seen in OotS not committed by Xykon, IMO.

[Drammel]

I do think she deserves a slap upside the head.

Quite probably the most insightful thing anyone has said, ever.

The sad thing is that I'm serious about it.

If Celia had blasted Hank and company out of the water, as per the supernatural wishes of her boyfriend, her role in the plot effectively ceases. To put that a bit more clearly; if Miko had, at any point, admitted that she was wrong or could make a poor decision all the tension built by her incessant arrogance would have been defused. There would be nothing for the protagonists to react to. She would have no function in the narrative.

Celia is much the same way. Her dedication to nonviolence and other quirks creates a tension which Haley specifically has to deal with. Remove that tension and Celia's just Roy's cheerleader when he inevitably returns to the story. One can argue that the only way they could bring Roy back was the current deal with the Thieves's Guild, but that's just another hurdle to be crossed. The way things are, as of now, Roy comes back sooner rather than later (hence the "At Least There Weren't Any Cryptograms" title of the most recent comic).

So this poises the question 'Why didn't Celia blast Hank out of the water?' That would have been the logical point to defuse her role in the narrative and begin getting her back in law school. Like Celia or not, she's going to be sticking around for a while. Why? Because as has been said in this discussion she is to Haley what Elan is to Roy. Elan's naiveté created the same kind of tension which allowed the Order of the Stick to engage in all kinds of antics, but he's done this already and matured past the point where it becomes a feasible plot device.

Enter Celia, stage right. Whereas, Elan was given immunity to Roy's frustrations because it would be like kicking a puppy, Celia's more of a cat. Elan didn't know any better, whereas Celia just thinks she does. What's worse is that Roy is the kind of guy that would defend some of her actions even if he personally wouldn't have done them in her situation. He'd be conflicted because Celia is his girlfriend and because she acted in an altruistic manner, but because he will also be able to see how Haley has a right to be upset. The fact that the tension between Haley and Celia is still being built indicates that when Roy does come back he'll be stuck right in the middle of it. Narratives abhor unresolved conflicts like nature abhors a void.

Celia will stick around exactly as long as it takes for her to understand that her principles cannot always be so rigid, possibly longer depending on how she develops. She is, at this point, still actively producing conflict and that doesn't look to end anytime soon.

So for we, as readers, to want her to continue being a mechanic by which conflict is generated for the Order of the Stick someone needs to slap her upside the head.

Probably Haley.

Celia needs to have an active consequence attached to her actions. Nothing says 'you did wrong' like a knuckle sandwich. Or in lieu of that, being told that she just erased all of the money dedicated to rescuing Haley's father might hurt, and challenge Celia's assumptions about right and wrong. She may or may not accept that she did anything wrong, but at least she can no longer act without questioning herself.

Right now she's not a particularly likable character (else this thread doesn't exist). She's not entirely dislikeable either, she just needs to grow. That's what conflict and resolution are all about.

[Quorothorn]

It's official! Celia is the new Miko! Why is it all of Roy's love interests eventually get utterly hated? Do you think at some point Roy had a thing for George Bush?

That comparison makes way too much sense for my comfort.


I nominate Celia for NPC of the year, well, maybe month. She has provided some great laughs here and should stay in the story at least for the rest of this book. [It's not so easy to see how to keep her in the story once the party is reunited and on its way to the next gate.]

And those critics should remember that Roy seems attracted to women who annoy them. If we get rid of Celia, the next lass is going to be worse.

Kinda early for NPC of the year, don't you think, Argall? Unless you mean 2008, in which case I suspect any vote would lead to O-chul or Mr. Scruffy. Month, maybe, though we'll see what Hank has up his sleeve (the "...Legal pad." bit was win).


When I say 'well-written', I don't mean 'consistent'. Celia has an excuse for not being 100% consistent, both in-story and a practical one - she was conceived at a time when the current events were not planned.

However, It's quite easy to create a character who is consistent, but utterly boring. The challenge lies in creating characters your readers want to actually follow. So far, all characters in OOTS have fulfilled this requirement for me, but Celia doesn't even come close. I know this is very subjective, but apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks so.

No you're not the only one.

...It all started with a penny in the door. There was a hatred I had never felt before. So now I'll make him PAY, each and every daaaay...until that mousse-haired nuisance is...nooo...mooooooore.

*Cough.* Sorry.


And she was on a good way to get killed herself, because even after killing Bozzok she'd have to face the entire Thieve's Guild.

With Belkar assisting her, I doubt there's a thing in Greysky capable of defeating Haley in combat.


<A long series of nice points.>

*Claps.*

[Optimystik]

The way things are, as of now, Roy comes back sooner rather than later (hence the "At Least There Weren't Any Cryptograms" title of the most recent comic).

The title isn't related to Roy - it's a reference to the fact that Haley just got a major shock (by realizing she's several million GP in the hole thanks to Celia's "bargain.") The last time she lost that much money in one sitting her speech went bad also; it seems she's become a bit stronger mentally.


Enter Celia, stage right. Whereas, Elan was given immunity to Roy's frustrations because it would be like kicking a puppy, Celia's more of a cat.

Elan's immunity came from the fact that HIS misunderstanding of how the world works was actually funny. Celia has no such protection.

I agreed with everything else in Drammel's post.

[Zevox]

Nay. Now really, I'm quite annoyed at her for this latest boneheaded move too, but it seems to me many are overreacting here. I can hardly believe people actually comparing Celia to Miko. She doesn't even come close to that level of stubborn, preachy, and self-righteous. It is a tad annoying that her preachiness has returned in this particular comic after vanishing for a while, but she's still a long ways off from being anything like our unmourned Paladin.

Really, I just wish she hadn't gone and made this foolish agreement for Haley to pay the Thieves Guild. Even if it weren't for the situation with Haley's father, that would not be acceptable. That money is not Celia's to give away, nor is it at all wise to be giving it away to an evil group like this. Celia of all people, as a lawyer, should know that. And really, the Guild was getting plenty out of the deal without that. Between the reputation benefits and everything from Blind Old Pete's house, there's no logical reason she should have had to toss in Haley's money.

Zevox

[Quorothorn]

Elan's immunity came from the fact that HIS misunderstanding of how the world works was actually funny. Celia has no such protection.

As (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html) an (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html) example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0027.html).

[Tmabbbb]

Aye. Celia is an incredibly annoying character. Turning Roy's body into a bone golem was an essential part to the plot, I can understand that. However, giving away all of your friends money without her consent when the problem could be resolved in a much more effective manner - that's unforgivable. Becuase unless a substantial amount of money is discovered, Haley will greatly suffer. I enjoyed Celia's role as a minor NPC, but Celia did not do one useful thing since she was summoned back.

[Zevox]

I enjoyed Celia's role as a minor NPC, but Celia did not do one useful thing since she was summoned back.
I'm afraid I must correct you there. Were it not for Celia, Haley and Belkar would still be sitting tight in Azure City, utterly unaware of the Cloister spell cutting them off from their comrades' efforts to find them. For that, if nothing else, you have to give her some credit.

Zevox

[Quorothorn]

Nay. Now really, I'm quite annoyed at her for this latest boneheaded move too, but it seems to me many are overreacting here. I can hardly believe people actually comparing Celia to Miko. She doesn't even come close to that level of stubborn, preachy, and self-righteous. It is a tad annoying that her preachiness has returned in this particular comic after vanishing for a while, but she's still a long ways off from being anything like our unmourned Paladin.

Note that the title just says "kick", not "kick off a cliff/out of the comic". Not a huge overreaction, really.


Really, I just wish she hadn't gone and made this foolish agreement for Haley to pay the Thieves Guild. Even if it weren't for the situation with Haley's father, that would not be acceptable. That money is not Celia's to give away, nor is it at all wise to be giving it away to an evil group like this. Celia of all people, as a lawyer, should know that. And really, the Guild was getting plenty out of the deal without that. Between the reputation benefits and everything from Blind Old Pete's house, there's no logical reason she should have had to toss in Haley's money.

Don't forget that they were also getting their lives. :smallwink:

[Zevox]

Note that the title just says "kick", not "kick off a cliff/out of the comic". Not a huge overreaction, really.
True. But many of the responses we see here and in the main comic discussion thread are far less constrained.


Don't forget that they were also getting their lives. :smallwink:
Yeah, that was quite the benefit for the Guild as well. Not terribly bright on Celia's part either, but I can at least chalk that one up to the combination of her pacifism and necessity to assure the Guild's cooperation with the contract (after all, leaving those thieves dead would mean the Guild had suffered heavy personnel losses in that battle thanks to Haley & co, and I could see them not being content with looting Blind Pete's and salvaging their reputation compared to that loss and the fact that they would then be aiding the group that did that to them). She has no such excuses for giving away Haley's money, though.

Zevox

[Quorothorn]

True. But many of the responses we see here and in the main comic discussion thread are far less constrained.

Point.


Yeah, that was quite the benefit for the Guild as well. Not terribly bright on Celia's part either, but I can at least chalk that one up to the combination of her pacifism and necessity to assure the Guild's cooperation with the contract. She has no such excuses for giving away Haley's money, though.

Another point.

[Nerdanel]

Aye. Celia is my least favorite character in the entire OOTS. Of the characters that were there to provide plot complications to OOTS due to their stupidity despite being technically on the same side, Elan was funny and likable, Miko was funny and irritating, and now Celia is almost completely unfunny and irritating. Complicating the plot doesn't automatically equal funny or entertaining.

[TheBST]

Nay. Unlike Miko or Therkla (yes there were some of us who didn't take to her), at least with Celia you can say her heart's in the right place for rational reasons.

Plus I find it hilarious when characters who have nothing but good intentions screw up everything when they try to help people out.

[Lizard Lord]

The fact that she didn't know that she did that doesn't change the fact that she did that.



Gasp! She made a mistake of which she had no way of knowing the full extent of what she was doing! Surely anyone who does this must be burned at the stake!

/sarcasm off

It wasn't just that she didn't know, it is that she couldn't have known. Haley wasn't about to tell her and none of the OotS knew. If Haley was more forthcoming, this would have been prevented.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Here's what should happen to Celia:

:roy: (Gets raised). Thanks for the raise, but you betrayed my second in command and wasted thousands of diamonds that could have gone to raising Soldiers fighting on our side instead of Thieves who wanted to kill us. I don't care if you DO put out on the first date, we're broken up.

Celia: *Cries*

Some Academic Official: *Plane Shifts in* Ah, Miss Celia. It is my duty to inform you that, due to chronic absenteeism, you are now expelled from Law School.

Celia: *Cries some more, collapses to the ground.*

Some Academic Official: On a totally unrelated note, I'd like you to meet this year's valedictorian. She just got a job where she makes more money in a day doing very little work than you probably will in your entire life.

Valedictorian: Hi. (It turns out she's the same Dryad Hussy that stole her first boyfriend)

:roy: Whoa! Hey baby, ever date a protagonist? Wanna go get some coffee and discuss Botany?

Valedictorian: Okay! *They leave Celia*

Celia: *Cries some more and starts kicking and punching the ground like a small child throwing a tantrum.*

Actually, I don't have anything against Celia. I'd love to see how Roy will really react to her actions, and not that out of character nonsense I just churned out. I don't think she deserves that at all. It was just a funny image. I'll still think she needs some sort of comeuppance that should keep her from turning into a "Hey Readers, See This Character? THAT'S How You Should Act!" style character. Like she once said "[s]he can't just get away with [putting Haley in danger by ignoring orders then raising a bunch of violent criminals with money stolen from her ally]. There has to be consequences."

[Quorothorn]

Here's what should happen to Celia:

:roy: (Gets raised). Thanks for the raise, but you betrayed my second in command and wasted thousands of diamonds that could have gone to raising Soldiers fighting on our side instead of Thieves who wanted to kill us. I don't care if you DO put out on the first date, we're broken up.

Celia: *Cries*

Some Academic Official: *Plane Shifts in* Ah, Miss Celia. It is my duty to inform you that, due to chronic absenteeism, you are now expelled from Law School.

Celia: *Cries some more, collapses to the ground.*

Some Academic Official: On a totally unrelated note, I'd like you to meet this year's valedictorian. She just got a job where she makes more money in a day doing very little work than you probably will in your entire life.

Valedictorian: Hi. (It turns out she's the same Dryad Hussy that stole her first boyfriend)

:roy: Whoa! Hey baby, ever date a protagonist? Wanna go get some coffee and discuss Botany?

Valedictorian: Okay! *They leave Celia*

Celia: *Cries some more and starts kicking and punching the ground like a small child throwing a tantrum.*

Actually, I don't have anything against Celia. I'd love to see how Roy will really react to her actions. I don't think she deserves all that. It was just a funny image.

Dude (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumiliationConga). :smalleek:

[Raging Gene Ray]

Dude (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumiliationConga). :smalleek:

Yeah. Like I said, I really don't wish that on anybody. Except maybe Xykon. (or maybe Belkar if it means everyone he killed ends up Raised).

[Quorothorn]

Yeah. Like I said, I really don't wish that on anybody. Except maybe Xykon. (or maybe Belkar if it means everyone he killed ends up Raised).

Hmm. Quite.

[Lunaya]

XD That was awesome, Gene. I especially loved the part about Celia putting out on a first day. Lawful Good, my butt.

[Enlong]

Gasp! She made a mistake of which she had no way of knowing the full extent of what she was doing! Surely anyone who does this must be burned at the stake!
Burned at the stake? What? I just want Haley to make Celia know exactly what she just did. Preferably with a slap upside the head, but whatever.

And even if she didn't know the full extent of what she did, she still knew that Haley was pretty much close to flat broke. She knows that Haley simply doesn't have that kind of money anymore, and she still stuck Haley a massive debt; and tried to make Haley "eat her words" after doing so.


I feel obligated to interject here. Unless I'm reading the contract very wrong, the thieves are being resurrected out of the Guild purse. In other words:

What Haley gets: The Guild pays to resurrect every member who died in the fight, except Pete. The Guild also pays to resurrect Roy, after stealing his bones back. She gets her old room and membership card back.
What the Guild gets: 50% of what Haley steals, retroactive for the time she wasn't part of the Guild. Note: THIS IS A MUCH BETTER CONTRACT THAN HER ORIGINAL CONTRACT WITH THE GUILD. (In OtOoPCs, they took over 90% of what she stole.) Should Celia notice that the contract is still horrendous? Yes, but Haley or Ian or whoever committed her to her original employment contract should have known better then, too.

Wrong. The 50% is retroactive of what she's stolen since she left. She's still under a normal Thieves' Guild contract, so she owes them 50% of money that Celia knew Haley did not have, and the ridiculous guild taxes on anything she makes from now on, and I wouldn't put it past Bozzok to inflate the taxes on Haley out of personal spite.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

As I pointed out in the discussion thread, all this is pretty much moot. I mean, Celia has no way to force Haley to accept this agreement. The guild has no way to force her to, either, from the way Haley and Belkar wiped most of them out in the last few strips. So, why on Earth doesn't Haley just laugh in their faces and give them their marching orders to get Roy resurrected?

She's got them by the short hairs.

[Lissou]

Well, of course using someone else's money isn't great. And Celia knew Haley would be upset about that, she just couldn't guess about the whole father thing.

But from Celia's point of view it's money vs life. If they spend money (and, well, Celia could help get the money back, too, it's not like only Haley would), they can get Roy raised. If not, well, right now they don't have any other option, the only cleric who was willing to help them is gone, and without the contract, no other cleric would have helped. And they want to stay in Greysky to keep an eye on Roy.

If Celia had known about Haley's father, then it would be closer to life vs life. Of course, even in that case, Haley's father isn't dead that we know of, and his life isn't going to save the universe that we know of. So it would still be the right decision, albeit a painful one to make.

[Quorothorn]

Wrong. The 50% is retroactive of what she's stolen since she left. She's still under a normal Thieves' Guild contract, so she owes them 50% of money that Celia knew Haley did not have, and the ridiculous guild taxes on anything she makes from now on, and I wouldn't put it past Bozzok to inflate the taxes on Haley out of personal spite.

He tries that, and he's getting popsic'd again and he knows it. Particularly when he finds out that Belkar utterly trashed his right-hand killer.

Haley and Belkar should totally pull a Vader here.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

He tries that, and he's getting popsic'd again and he knows it. Particularly when he finds out that Belkar utterly trashed his right-hand killer.

Haley and Belkar should totally pull a Vader here.

Agreed. They're in charge, and if Haley surrenders to Celia's idiot plan, it's her fault, because there's no way she can be made to follow it. :smalltongue:

[evileeyore]

I'll still think she needs some sort of comeuppance that should keep her from turning into a "Hey Readers, See This Character? THAT'S How You Should Act!" style character.

I really don't think that's what she is at all.

Honestly she's just another LG character with flaws that are a hinderance to a "normal" party's M.O. I really doubt she is the Voice of the Author or any form of surrogate within which Rich is trying to "educate teh masses with a Good example".

Quite the opposite, in my opinion.


Like she once said "[s]he can't just get away with [putting Haley in danger by ignoring orders then raising a bunch of violent criminals with money stolen from her ally]. There has to be consequences."

She stole the money from her ally? No, see Haley can still back out this deal, she hasn't signed anything I can recall. Nor has anyone been raised. Nor was Haley in a position to 'give orders'.

So... yeah, all three batted down. Will their be consequences? Sure. All in the name of comedy.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I really don't think that's what she is at all.


Neither do I. What I said was "if she were that kind of character..." but she isn't. No argument there, mate.


That was awesome, Gene.

Thanks. I try :smallsmile:.

[Lizard Lord]

Burned at the stake? What? I just want Haley to make Celia know exactly what she just did. Preferably with a slap upside the head, but whatever.

Didn't catch the /sarcasm part? Should I have also done /exaggeration?

Anyways worst case scenario, as far as Celia saw it, Haley has a debt to pay off to the guild. Celia may not even have fully realized how large that dept is. To her that is worth Roy coming back to life.

Of course Celia should be told what she did wrong, if for no other reason then to be caught up to speed. Not really sure if she even deserves the smack upside the head.

Haley was intentionally secretive about her true goals and motives. Sure she never had a reason to tell Celia, but if she told the rest of the OotS about it there would have at least been the possibility of Celia finding out.

Bad things happen when you withhold info from your allies.



XD That was awesome, Gene. I especially loved the part about Celia putting out on a first day. Lawful Good, my butt. Are you saying Roy isn't lawful good or are you using double standards?

[Optimystik]

She stole the money from her ally? No, see Haley can still back out this deal, she hasn't signed anything I can recall. Nor has anyone been raised. Nor was Haley in a position to 'give orders'.

Sadly, she's not going to. She didn't know Cole's sending was successful. The best we can hope for is for her to find a loophole that Hank didn't account for.


Are you saying Roy isn't lawful good or are you using double standards?

Alignment is different for women! :smalltongue:

[Finwe]

Of course Celia should be told what she did wrong, if for no other reason then to be caught up to speed. Not really sure if she even deserves the smack upside the head.

A burning? No. A smack upside the head? Most assuredly. She's intentionally betrayed one of her teammates' trust. She has a lot to learn about working in a group. Most importantly, conflicts in ideology will happen, and the best way to resolve conflicts does not involve placing a massive debt on your partner and then rubbing their nose in it.

tldr: Smacks upside the head promote learning and growth, both of which Celia needs.

[Zevox]

Sadly, she's not going to. She didn't know Cole's sending was successful.
Um, we don't even know if the Cleric's sending was successful, last I checked.

Zevox

[Lunaya]

Are you saying Roy isn't lawful good or are you using double standards?
I'm annoyed with both Roy and Celia for going all the way on a first date, especially when they both claim to be Lawful. After all, Daigo seemed to think that Lawful Good Hinjo would disapprove of premarital sex.

Meh. I won't lose any sleep over the morals of stick figures. I just would have expected Roy and Celia to take more time and at least get to know each other before consummating their relationship.

[Lizard Lord]

A burning? No. A smack upside the head? Most assuredly. She's intentionally betrayed one of her teammates' trust. She has a lot to learn about working in a group. Most importantly, conflicts in ideology will happen, and the best way to resolve conflicts does not involve placing a massive debt on your partner and then rubbing their nose in it.

tldr: Smacks upside the head promote learning and growth, both of which Celia needs.
Haley is not exactly one who should teach to someone about trust. She cheated her party members out of gold in the early parts of the comic and she was intentionally keeping secretes up until the party split. Heck, until he died Roy still thought that Haley was a guild approved Rogue. At least Celia had the excuse of not having enough time to explain things to Haley. Haley had plenty of time to explain things to the Roy and the others. Heck, if Haley just told Celia the real reason she wanted to stay out of Greysky chances are none of this would have even happened in the first place.

In other words, if she smacks Celia on the head, it shouldn't be because Celia betrayed her trust. Otherwise everyone in the OotS should give Haley a similar smack.

[Optimystik]

Um, we don't even know if the Cleric's sending was successful, last I checked.

You're right, we don't. However, he did stop chanting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html) before freeing Belkar from his funk, so chances are he did.

[Lizard Lord]

I'm annoyed with both Roy and Celia for going all the way on a first date, especially when they both claim to be Lawful. After all, Daigo seemed to think that Lawful Good Hinjo would disapprove of premarital sex.

Meh. I won't lose any sleep over the morals of stick figures. I just would have expected Roy and Celia to take more time and at least get to know each other before consummating their relationship.

Hinjo is not just lawful good. He is a paladin. That is the reason they thought he would disapprove. Paladins are known to be more morally strict then everyone else. After all, they felt they could tell Durkon and he is LG.

Well, I suppose you are annoyed with him as well since he also went all the way on the first date.

[Quorothorn]

Agreed. They're in charge, and if Haley surrenders to Celia's idiot plan, it's her fault, because there's no way she can be made to follow it. :smalltongue:

Precisely. :smallcool:


I'm annoyed with both Roy and Celia for going all the way on a first date, especially when they both claim to be Lawful. After all, Daigo seemed to think that Lawful Good Hinjo would disapprove of premarital sex.

Meh. I won't lose any sleep over the morals of stick figures. I just would have expected Roy and Celia to take more time and at least get to know each other before consummating their relationship.

Hinjo's a Paladin (and a Lord), which is a special kind of Lawful Good. Note that the very-much-LG Durkon is basically fine with the idea.

Edit: Lizard Lord, you mad ninja! :smalltongue:

[Ganurath]

I'm annoyed with both Roy and Celia for going all the way on a first date, especially when they both claim to be Lawful. After all, Daigo seemed to think that Lawful Good Hinjo would disapprove of premarital sex.

Meh. I won't lose any sleep over the morals of stick figures. I just would have expected Roy and Celia to take more time and at least get to know each other before consummating their relationship.Well, premarital sex may be construed as leaning chaotic, but by no means is it illegal, and I personally wouldn't consider it evil, and I'm fairly certain I'm not alone in that assessment. Roy has just gotten out of prison and was rebounding off a crush that turned out poorly, and Celia... is a fey? Between nymphs and satyrs, I'd say fey are more open-minded about sex than humanoids.

[Optimystik]

Hinjo is not just lawful good. He is a paladin. That is the reason they thought he would disapprove. After all, they felt they could tell Durkon and he is lg.

Well, I suppose you are annoyed with him as well since he also went all the way on the first date.

And since you mention it, Durkon went all the way on HIS first date. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html) :smallwink:

[brilliantlight]

Nay.

Her mindset brings new perspective to the story. I would not have it removed just because it she an inconvenience to the OotS. If you really want her removed just because she screws up allot then you might as well say the same for Elan. And if you asked for Elan to be kicked out, I would have to reach though the internet and smack you. Like Elan she tries the best she

Also, even though I do not completely agree with them, her beliefs are not bad beliefs. I applaud her for trying her best to find a non-violent solution.

I don't mind Elan as Elan is an idiot. He does stupid things because he is stupid. Celia doesn't have that excuse and it her sanctimonious attitude that gets to everyone.

[Lunaya]

All very good points, and yes, I was every bit as annoyed with Roy as Celia. I guess it's just a case of, "To each his own". :P

[Optimystik]

I don't mind Elan as Elan is an idiot. He does stupid things because he is stupid. Celia doesn't have that excuse and it her sanctimonious attitude that gets to everyone.

Even Elan wouldn't negotiate all their treasure away when he was winning.

[Firewind]

What annoys me most about Celia is the fact that she is using her friend's money to resurrect a whole bunch of people that would have a lot to gain and absolutely nothing to lose from simply taking Haley's retroactive 50% and simply having her killed.

I mean would Bozzok, Crystal and the dead guild members seriously allow Haley to walk away alive after this? What would Haley have lost from simply killing Bozzok? All Celia has done is created yet another recurring villain through her own stupidity that will inevitable cause plot complications and screw things up for the OoTS at a later date.

[brilliantlight]

Well, she didn't know about that, did she? If Celia knew about that, she'd have argued against the 50% clause, in her client's defense.

And in response to arguments that she's "not realistic" because she's unwilling to kill, I should point out that out here in the real world, few civilized people are actually willing to kill other people, if only on a subconscious level. There's a reason why we put murderers in jail, y'know.

Celia is just reacting the way a person not raised in a violent pseudo-medieval fantasy world would to a harsh reality...

I'm not a murderer by any means but if someone tries killing me or my family I will killl him first if I can. Remember the mooks tired to KILL Haley.

[Quorothorn]

Even Elan wouldn't negotiate all their treasure away when he was winning.

...But he would set a dungeon (still containing much treasure) they were all currently in to explode. :smallwink:

[Lizard Lord]

What annoys me most about Celia is the fact that she is using her friend's money to resurrect a whole bunch of people that would have a lot to gain and absolutely nothing to lose from simply taking Haley's retroactive 50% and simply having her killed.



Actually, from the sounds of it, I would think that the guild would have wanted that money anyways. Really all Celia did with THAT part of the deal was to force them to spend it on raising the thieves instead of having them spend it on better weapons. Also, with the deal as a whole, this means that they don't have to go all the way to Cliffport to find adventurers willing to help them. There two bad parts about this deal.

1. Haley is in a large debt. Though Celia doesn't realize what Haley REALLY wanted that money for. Still not entirely right for her to do that.
2. Celia has effectively raised allot of people that where earlier trying to kill her and her friends. As a Lawful Good pacifist that felt guilty about those deaths, this should be expected of her.

[Tempest Fennac]

If I'm honest, I fail to see how Celia can even class as good. While pacifism is admirable, when you'd sooner stick to that sort of principal rather then save a friend from getting killed, it seems more Lawful Neutral. I tend not to think she's even Lawful based on how she only seems bothered with twisting things so that she gets her own way (eg: she was in favour of having someone robbed because she screwed up and lost Roy's body).

I don't class Miko as Lawful Stupid either; if she insisted on fighting the Ogres on her own, she would be, but it turned out to be part of a plan which was designed to minimize the risk to the Order. The only occasion when I remember her taking a "kill first, ask questions later" stance was when she killed Shojo. Based on her IC knowledge, there's no reason why she should have been willing to trust him, especially considering how his responce to her discovering him talking to Roy and Belkar was to pretend to be insane again before making vague comments and questioning Miko's sanity (which is ironic considering how he encouraged her to think like that in the first place due to how her fanaticism could be channeled towards his own goals).

Also, Miko did actually like helping people (it always amuses me that Roy claimed that Miko didn't apply to any definition of LG that he knew of when his responce to someone who was in trouble was "yay a quest hook!"). Celia only seems to care about her own goals (eg: becoming a lawyer) and getting her boyfriend revived. The fact that Celia didn't seem upset about dog fighters and wife-beaters being brought back to life also suggests that she isn't really bothered about anyone else. (As far as the possible gang war is concerned, I doubt that many innocent people would be killed due to how it would mean less buisness for whoever took over).

[Quorothorn]

If I'm honest, I fail to see how Celia can even class as good. While pacifism is admirable, when you'd sooner stick to that sort of principal rather then save a friend from getting killed, it seems more Lawful Neutral. I tend not to think she's even Lawful based on how she only seems bothered with twisting things so that she gets her own way (eg: she was in favour of having someone robbed because she screwed up and lost Roy's body).

I don't class Miko as Lawful Stupid either; if she insisted on fighting the Ogres on her own, she would be, but it turned out to be part of a plan which was designed to minimize the risk to the Order. The only occasion when I remember her taking a "kill first, ask questions later" stance was when she killed Shojo. Based on her IC knowledge, there's no reason why she should have been willing to trust him, especially considering how his responce to her discovering him talking to Roy and Belkar was to pretend to be insane again before making vague comments and questioning Miko's sanity (which is ironic considering how he encouraged her to think like that in the first place due to how her fanaticism could be channeled towards his own goals).

Also, Miko did actually like helping people (it always amuses me that Roy claimed that Miko didn't apply to any definition of LG that he knew of when his responce to someone who was in trouble was "yay a quest hook!"). Celia only seems to care about her own goals (eg: becoming a lawyer) and getting her boyfriend revived. The fact that Celia didn't seem upset about dog fighters and wife-beaters being brought back to life also suggests that she isn't really bothered about anyone else. (As far as the possible gang war is concerned, I doubt that many innocent people would be killed due to how it would mean less buisness for whoever took over).

This actually triggered a realization for me: has anyone in the comic ever said anything about Celia's alignment? :smallconfused:

[Tempest Fennac]

I don;t think they have. At one point, I think some readers assumed she was neutral because (I think) Slyths have that as their listed alignment, and it fitted for everything up to the point she came back to "help" Haley. Then I think a lot of people decided she was Lawful Good or Neutral Good. As far as the comic itself goes, nothing has been said to my knowledge.

[Quorothorn]

I don;t think they have. At one point, I think some readers assumed she was neutral because (I think) Slyths have that as their listed alignment, and it fitted for everything up to the point she came back to "help" Haley. Then I think a lot of people decided she was Lawful Good or Neutral Good. As far as the comic itself goes, nothing has been said to my knowledge.

Well then, why not True Neutral? "I don't make the rules, I just twist them to my advantage."

Of course, alignment's weird: I still can't figure out if I'm Neutral Good or Chaotic Evil. :smallbiggrin: And more reasonably, there's a character in a board RPG-like thing I'm in, and I remember once saying that one character could be argued as having any of the nine alignments (albeit with a stronger case for some than others).

[Tempest Fennac]

I know what you mean about alignment. I've gotten every non-evil alignment on tests except TN, I class myself as Neutral (Chaotic) Good, most people on this forums Silly Message Board Game section class me as Lawful Good. TN sounds right for Celia.

[Quorothorn]

I know what you mean about alignment. I've gotten every non-evil alignment on tests except TN, I class myself as Neutral (Chaotic) Good, most people on this forums Silly Message Board Game section class me as Lawful Good. TN sounds right for Celia.

Huh, I wonder what other people would classify me as... :smallconfused: On one board I'm sure they'd call me Lawful something...hmm...

Anyway, Neutral Good is Good.

As in, something I've always thought about alignment is that the "Neutral" is sort of a "very" tag: as in, LNs are Very Lawful, NE are Very Evil, et cetera. Y'know what I mean?

[Tempest Fennac]

I know what you mean. I think the standard rules just claim that an NG character is as good as a CG person, but they don;t care about freedom as much. I don't know you well enough to comment on your alignnment sadly. :(

[David Argall]

It is rarely proper to beat the guiligan up. The desire to should definitely be there. But Celia is trying her best when she royally shafts the party, and so one is pretty much limited to wishing for trees to fall on her.

[Quorothorn]

I know what you mean. I think the standard rules just claim that an NG character is as good as a CG person, but they don;t care about freedom as much. I don't know you well enough to comment on your alignnment sadly. :(

Hmm...I just read the section in the PH, and, funny thing: the descriptions of NG/CG and LG/LN are, at their roots, practically the same, just presented differently. Weird.

At least, it seems that way to me. Maybe my mind is becoming addled at this late hour. :smalleek:

[skywalker]

Huh, I wonder what other people would classify me as... :smallconfused: On one board I'm sure they'd call me Lawful something...hmm...

Anyway, Neutral Good is Good.

As in, something I've always thought about alignment is that the "Neutral" is sort of a "very" tag: as in, LNs are Very Lawful, NE are Very Evil, et cetera. Y'know what I mean?

Well, I think it's natural to think of the neutral alignments as more pure. I'd prefer to be thought of as neutral good

Anyway, aye. "I gave away half your stuff to raise people who were trying to kill us! And you don't like it, nyah!"

That's pretty much what I got from that one. Ew.

[Tempest Fennac]

That sounds odd, Quorothorn. The problem with what appears to be Celia's best is that she's clealy out of her depth, but she never seems to take that into account at the time, but she's happy to use it as an excuse when she gets into trouble (hence that comment about not being taught monster weaknesses before they escaped from the Flesh Golems). If I was in her position, I'd just do exactly what Haley said based on how she has a clue about this sort of thing.

[Quorothorn]

That sounds odd, Quorothorn. The problem with what appears to be Celia's best is that she's clealy out of her depth, but she never seems to take that into account at the time, but she's happy to use it as an excuse when she gets into trouble (hence that comment about not being taught monster weaknesses before they escaped from the Flesh Golems). If I was in her position, I'd just do exactly what Haley said based on how she has a clue about this sort of thing.

I know, eh? I'll try to remember to type up the PH descriptions so you can judge for yourself: after I get a semi-night's sleep, that is. See ya later, Fennac.
I certainly wouldn't have gone into Greysky, myself, so we totally agree on that one.


Well, I think it's natural to think of the neutral alignments as more pure. I'd prefer to be thought of as neutral good

Anyway, aye. "I gave away half your stuff to raise people who were trying to kill us! And you don't like it, nyah!"

That's pretty much what I got from that one. Ew.

Yuppers.

[Tempest Fennac]

Goodnight. :smallsmile: The thing about Greysky is that Haley didn't even mince her words when burying the place (then again, Celia did fail to notice someone being killed, a mugging and bribary as she wandered into town somehow).

[Ganurath]

If I was in her position, I'd just do exactly what Haley said based on how she has a clue about this sort of thing."But I'm a lawyer! They only way I'd listen to a petty, unashamed criminal is if I were their attorney and they were saying 'Plea guilty.'"

[Tempest Fennac]

Given what we know about Celia, that is probably the case. Admittedly, she doesn't seem that bothered about Haley stealing things, so there are probably exceptions if it suits her.

[Ganurath]

Given what we know about Celia, that is probably the case. Admittedly, she doesn't seem that bothered about Haley stealing things, so there are probably exceptions if it suits her.Until you consider that the only things she was stealing either right fully belonged to the trio by Celia's sense of ownership or belonged to someone who had betrayed them and ought to be punished by some form of material compensation as would be appropriate in the court of law.

...You'd think a fey with the air subtype would lean more toward chaos.

[Tempest Fennac]

I know there is a size difference between Celia and MM2 Slyths, so Rich may have ignored the alignment listing for them as well.

[lord_khaine]

Nay

i think Celia adds to the story, so it would be a shame to remove her.
and also, in the i belive the Order are better off with the deal she made.
after all, it will both get them Roy's corpse back, and get him raised.

[Ganurath]

Nay

i think Celia adds to the story, so it would be a shame to remove her.
and also, in the i belive the Order are better off with the deal she made.
after all, it will both get them Roy's corpse back, and get him raised.1. The same logic could be applied to Miko and Kubota, but that didn't prevent them from being hate-worthy characters.
2. The Order? As a whole, in matters of headcount, sure. But in regard to financial losses and psychological harm to the only competent leader in the Order that isn't a bone golem at present? Pros and cons, khaine.
3. At far more than hireling cost.

[Tempest Fennac]

Why was Kubota hated? I don;t remember seeing people complaining about him to the degree that they have regarding Miko or Celia.

[Charles Phipps]

Why was Kubota hated? I don;t remember seeing people complaining about him to the degree that they have regarding Miko or Celia.

People aren't being nearly as harsh to Celia as they are to Miko. The difference is Celia lacks the same amount of Miko defenders that Miko had. Instead, it's more people dislike her rather than hate her and people like her rather than love her.

[Kish]

1. The same logic could be applied to Miko and Kubota, but that didn't prevent them from being hate-worthy characters.
Really? Somehow, it was never my impression the overlap between the set "people who think Miko adds to the story" and "people who hate Miko" was significant.

(I'm not quite sure what Kubota's name is doing there in either case. He was an ultimately quite minor villain.)

[FoE]

Why was Kubota hated? I don;t remember seeing people complaining about him to the degree that they have regarding Miko or Celia.

Understand there's a difference between hating a villain and hating a character. People "hated" Kubota for what he did to Therkla, but no one was saying "OMG pls dust Kabuto hez rlly annoyin n ruining OoTs kthnx."

Celia isn't ruining the comic either, but she is an idiot. There's nothing wrong with expressing dislike for such a character. Arguably, that's what Rich is going for.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks, FoE (I remember a lot of people hating him for that). Building on what you said about different kinds of hate, I'd agree that there's a difference between "good heat" (stuff which makes people want to see antagonists get their comeupance) and "bad heat" from people finding people to be annoying, which is the difference between Kubota and Celia here. (I know Celia isn;t really an antagonist, but she fills that roll a lot of the time.)

[Kish]

I remember a thread where someone was surprised I'd defend Miko because he knew I thought killing someone for nothing more than "pings on Detect Evil" should be a Falling offense. "Don't think of it as defense of Miko, think of it as condemnation of the Order," I told him.

I'm realizing that the same thing's happening here. Lots of people seem to regard the Order, by virtue of being the protagonists, as having a kind of moral weight that I don't. I find Haley's attitude toward money (stealing from her companions, stealing from innocent people, viewing the party's dragon treasure as hers, finding the idea of tips ridiculous) to be repugnant, and as for Haley's father--the fact that she apparently doesn't realize that the chances of Lord Tyrinar the Bloody keeping his word are slim to none, considering how suspicious she is of most people, is astounding. And, unfortunately, I can't think of any examples of Chaotic Good in the comic that aren't either Haley (and apparently Shojo)-style "extremely dirty good" or Elan-style idiocy.

The fact is, there's a lot more about Haley's new contract that we don't know than that we do. In the next few comics, we should find out exactly how bad--or good--it really is for Haley. My personal sympathy for Haley is likely to remain minimal in any case, and I'm sure some will continue to despise Celia in any case.

[3Power]

I only hate Celia because of the huge flanderization she underwent starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html). The fact that Celia acknowledges it herself only convinces me turning her into a complete idiot was a conscious decision.

[Amarsir]

The question is, do we dislike the character, or dislike the story that has the character. For example, we all like Xykon in the story. He's fun to watch. But I don't think any of us are hoping that he will beat the Oots and release the snarl. We like the story with him even as we dislike (root against) him as the bad guy.

By contrast, shows on the Disney channel are filled with goofy idiots and campy acting. The characters all good people and we're meant to root for the characters, but the inanity of it makes these shows mind-numbingly unwatchable for adults.

So are we meant to dislike Celia as someone who is interfering with Haley's plans? Yeah, probably. But that's not the problem - not mine anyway. I don't like her portrayal, and more importantly the way the world warps as a result of her catalyst.

Now I should say, as I alluded to in the 621 thread, that this last strip actually helps a bit in my mind. The big gaping whole in the plot is that there's no way they could negotiate a deal that's balanced and agreeable no matter who's winning. Celia didn't know who was winning or losing, alive or dead. (Or a ton of other stuff.) It's impossible that an agreement could make that not matter.

So Rich had to cheat. One cheat was that Bozzak was losing - and silenced. I sincerely doubt he would have agreed to this if he was one stroke from killing Haley (again, but don't get me started there). So the author makes him lose and then it's a non-issue.

Then the Haley side is more clever. How do you get her to agree? You don't tell her everything. That's an internal way to get around this plot hole, and I like it. Filling that in makes Hank's acquiesense more reasonable.

However, I see no reason why Haley, who was on the fence about the deal as it was, would continue to go along with it now that she knows. The first thing she says now should be "Deal's off." She still has the power here. But I don't think that's going to happen. No I think we'll see her yelling at Celia, but the deal will be treated as a fait accompli. That's unrealistic and illogical.

And that's why I don't like Celia. Not because she's an interference. Because she creates plot holes that require others to act illogically out of character.

(And even though story-writer's magic will no doubt find a way to rescue Haley's dad that doesn't require the ransom, that doesn't excuse the fact that now, at this moment, it doesn't make sense.)

[lord_khaine]

1. The same logic could be applied to Miko and Kubota, but that didn't prevent them from being hate-worthy characters.
2. The Order? As a whole, in matters of headcount, sure. But in regard to financial losses and psychological harm to the only competent leader in the Order that isn't a bone golem at present? Pros and cons, khaine.
3. At far more than hireling cost.

1. well, i guess its here were i start the disagreeing, since i liked Miko, and Kubota as well actualy.

2. yes, and i count getting Roy back as a very big Pro, and see Haley's financial loss, with following Psychological damage as a very small con.

3. though also at much greater speed, and with a higher rate of success.

also, i think people overestimate how much gold Haley will lose on this, after what i can see it will only be ½ of what she got from Grubwrinkler, since the guild dont have any chance of knowing what else she has stolen and later lost.

[FoE]

1) Resurrecting Roy is important, but I don't see why the Thieves' Guild was a necessary part of this plan. They still had the gold from Grubwiggler; Haley could have hired somer mercenaries to storm the castle along with her and Belkar. That would have achieved the same effect.

2) For that matter, was signing away half of the treasure Haley has collected over the time she left the guild a necessary sacrifice? I don't think it was. I think this was a willing offer made on Celia's part because she felt bad for all the murderous bastards who Haley killed in self-defence. It wasn't important that she screwed over Haley; as long as Roy was resurrected, no one was getting screwed and her own stupid principles could be upheld, Haley was an irrelevant part of this equation.

3) This is most definitely not a small chunk of change. Haley left the Thieves' Guild months before she joined Oots; she would have done quite a bit of thievery in that time. Plus there's the treasure taken from the Dungeon of Dorukan, the treasure taken from the black dragon, the money stolen from Grubwiggler, etc.

4) Celia, being an utter clutz about adventuring, probably assumes that Haley just has that type of cash readily available. What happens if the Guild finds out she doesn't?

[Iuris]

Of the acts that I would hold against Celia, I'd rather say that the ones given most attention are the least problematic.

Especially this last contract reinstatement. People have been accusing the poor gal of all kinds of horrors, but noone seems to be able to remember that not everyone is an omniscient reader of the comic.

At the time, Celia was herself captured and had seen Haley take a severe beating from Bozzok (and actually SAVED HER LIFE just there, by whisking her away at the last second and providing potions). The battle was NOT going well, and she saw an opportunity to use her skills to provide a guaranteed long term solution to the situation.

Maybe not the BEST solution possible, but the obvious "kill the rest of the thieves" would offer no guarantees - long term "assassins in the middle of the night" syndrome would be (in my opinion) a more likely consequence.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Again, though, I don't see what Haley's motive is for listening to Ms. Blue-Winged-Know-It-All. There's nothing that Celia can do to make Haley obey her idiotic scheme or equally idiotic agreement.

So I say nay. Haley is a retard who makes Crystal even at her pickle moment seem like a genius, if she doesn't just ignore Celia's tantrums and blundering, and coerce the guild -- which basically still exists solely at her whim -- into resurrecting Roy, and then simply leaving this Godforsaken city. She has no reason at all to listen to Celia, and if she does, then her IQ makes Banjo the Clown look smart, and he's not even animate.

Ah yes, and as for the arguments in favor of Celia, because "Haley killing her former associates is wrong" -- well, if I'm in a totally lawless city, armed, and a group of co-workers from a company I used to work for 10 years ago burst into a building I'm in, try to kill me, and try to kill everyone else in the building, all for basically no reason, and I have no way to escape -- I don't think it's going to be a moral outrage for me to fight back. :smalleek: Who cares if I used to work with them? Basic self-defense kind of takes precedence when someone is rushing at you with an axe and murderous intent.

And Celia's "big fancy negotiations" wouldn't have worked if Haley and Belkar hadn't brought the guild to its knees already. They were finished and just took Celia's suggestions because they were trying to weasel their way out of a richly-merited whooping. :smallbiggrin:

[Lissou]

4) Celia, being an utter clutz about adventuring, probably assumes that Haley just has that type of cash readily available. What happens if the Guild finds out she doesn't?

I think it's more that Celia, not knowing about adventuring, doesn't think half of what Haley's stolen would be that much.

[Hardcore]

I like Celia, and want a Coffepress item with her picture.
(preferably that pose when she offered to renegotiate Haleys contract:smalltongue: LIGHTNINGS!)

[Lissou]

You're right, we don't. However, he did stop chanting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html) before freeing Belkar from his funk, so chances are he did.

Well, we know he did send the message. But we can't be sure it reached the right person yet. It is my understanding that if he doesn't know Durkon, he could send the message to the wrong person by accident. The drawing might not be enough, we don't know how well the girls can draw.
And the Giant didn't show Durkon receiving the message, either. That could be because he didn't want to chance scenes , but it could be hiding something else.

I do think the spell worked, personally. But we can't know for sure until it switches back to the others.

[The Minx]

Nay. She might be deserving of a slap upside the head, perhaps, but kicking is too much. :smallsmile:

More than that, she really needs to head home after Roy is raised - for her own protection if nothing else, since she seems dangerously clueless about the "real" world.

[lord_khaine]

1) Resurrecting Roy is important, but I don't see why the Thieves' Guild was a necessary part of this plan. They still had the gold from Grubwiggler; Haley could have hired somer mercenaries to storm the castle along with her and Belkar. That would have achieved the same effect.

2) For that matter, was signing away half of the treasure Haley has collected over the time she left the guild a necessary sacrifice? I don't think it was. I think this was a willing offer made on Celia's part because she felt bad for all the murderous bastards who Haley killed in self-defence. It wasn't important that she screwed over Haley; as long as Roy was resurrected, no one was getting screwed and her own stupid principles could be upheld, Haley was an irrelevant part of this equation.

3) This is most definitely not a small chunk of change. Haley left the Thieves' Guild months before she joined Oots; she would have done quite a bit of thievery in that time. Plus there's the treasure taken from the Dungeon of Dorukan, the treasure taken from the black dragon, the money stolen from Grubwiggler, etc.

4) Celia, being an utter clutz about adventuring, probably assumes that Haley just has that type of cash readily available. What happens if the Guild finds out she doesn't?


1) its not that the guild is nececary, but more that they make it a lot easyer, Grubwrinkler cant be that weak a spellcaster if he is able to make golem, and normal mercenaries are not strong enough to fight Golems.
that aside, it also seems that without the guild they cant Roy raised, so they would have to go to another city to get that done as well, all this takes time, and they dont know how long they have to get to the next gate.

2) well i think it was necessary at time of the negotiation, since Celia and Hank did not know how the rest of the battle was going.

3) to start with, how the heck are the guild going to find out about what haley got from the Dungeon&Dragon? unless she actualy sit down and honestly tell them what she have been doing lately then the only thing they can say she has stolen is what she took from Grubwrinkler.

4) as mentioned before, i dont belive she will have to hand over more than ½ of what she currently has, and as for what the guild might do when they find out how much cash she has on her, then i thought you were just arguing that they did not need to make peace with the guild, and could just kill them when they wantet to?

[WinterSolstice]

As temporarily satisfying as it might be, and as tempted as I am to say Aye in light of recent...ahem...Events...

I'm adopting a wait-and-see perspective on the matter.

We've trusted Giant thus far and he has not led us astray:smallbiggrin:

perhaps her maddening mannerisms will be healthy for the story in the long run.

[Finwe]

At the time, Celia was herself captured and had seen Haley take a severe beating from Bozzok (and actually SAVED HER LIFE just there, by whisking her away at the last second and providing potions). The battle was NOT going well, and she saw an opportunity to use her skills to provide a guaranteed long term solution to the situation.

She could have demanded to renegotiate the contract after she and hank came out of the room and found that Haley and Belkar had Bozzok by the balls. In fact, any lawyer worth their salt would have done exactly that if they suddenly gained a massive upper hand.

[Lizard Lord]

1. The same logic could be applied to Miko and Kubota, but that didn't prevent them from being hate-worthy characters.
2. The Order? As a whole, in matters of headcount, sure. But in regard to financial losses and psychological harm to the only competent leader in the Order that isn't a bone golem at present? Pros and cons, khaine.
3. At far more than hireling cost.

He didn't say she wasn't hate worthy. The vote of Nay just means that she shouldn't be kicked out.

[King of Nowhere]

1) Resurrecting Roy is important, but I don't see why the Thieves' Guild was a necessary part of this plan. They still had the gold from Grubwiggler; Haley could have hired somer mercenaries to storm the castle along with her and Belkar. That would have achieved the same effect.

2) For that matter, was signing away half of the treasure Haley has collected over the time she left the guild a necessary sacrifice? I don't think it was. I think this was a willing offer made on Celia's part because she felt bad for all the murderous bastards who Haley killed in self-defence. It wasn't important that she screwed over Haley; as long as Roy was resurrected, no one was getting screwed and her own stupid principles could be upheld, Haley was an irrelevant part of this equation.

3) This is most definitely not a small chunk of change. Haley left the Thieves' Guild months before she joined Oots; she would have done quite a bit of thievery in that time. Plus there's the treasure taken from the Dungeon of Dorukan, the treasure taken from the black dragon, the money stolen from Grubwiggler, etc.

4) Celia, being an utter clutz about adventuring, probably assumes that Haley just has that type of cash readily available. What happens if the Guild finds out she doesn't?
That sums pretty much everything, except one particular: with Bozzok and Crystal gone, Haley and Belkar would be the most powerful people in the city, so they would find no problem attacking Grubwigger. Or buying Roy from him with the guild's money.

So, AYE. But not in the sense that I want Celia removed from the story. I want her to stay and change. I want her to realize how unsustainable her ideas were, and I want her to suffer for this.
I want those thieves she had resurrected to kill women and children in cold blood before her very eyes, and I want those people to KNOW it was Celia's fault if they are being killed, and insulting her with their last words.
I want her to have sons with Roy, and I want Bozzok to kill them (poor Roy, he don't deserve it). And I want Roy to know why Bozzok still lived. And I want Celia to cry cry and scream and whrite and such. And then I want her to wake and start blasting bad people into oblivion.

That said, I quite like Celia. I totally hate her concept of morality (letting bad people get away scott free. Refusing to defend a friend whose very life is threatened by professional murderers because, oh poor murderers, let's not hurt them. Asking said friend to do said things for her), but aside from that I like her.
Think what I would wish if I disliked her.

Disclaimer: I wish the dead of all those innocents only because it's a comic strip and they don't die for real. Don't worry about my sanity.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

However, I see no reason why Haley, who was on the fence about the deal as it was, would continue to go along with it now that she knows. The first thing she says now should be "Deal's off." She still has the power here. But I don't think that's going to happen. No I think we'll see her yelling at Celia, but the deal will be treated as a fait accompli. That's unrealistic and illogical.

And that's why I don't like Celia. Not because she's an interference. Because she creates plot holes that require others to act illogically out of character.

(And even though story-writer's magic will no doubt find a way to rescue Haley's dad that doesn't require the ransom, that doesn't excuse the fact that now, at this moment, it doesn't make sense.)

I agree. As I posted on the other thread, Haley basically has her foot on the neck of the surviving guild members and her dagger at their eye. They are at her -- and Belkar's -- mercy. Nothing's left but the mooks. And there's no way that they can coerce her to fork over that 50%. They should, logically, be on their best behavior, tiptoeing around and pulling forelock. That doesn't mean that they can't have plans of betrayal underneath the submissive smile, but this point, they exist on sufferance, and Haley owes them nothing.

It's totally jarring that she doesn't just laugh at Celia's pathetic fantasy of being able to order her around because she's a law student. It makes no sense even for a silly comic. All it is is annoying and glaringly contrived and clumsy. And I, for one, am beginning to miss the old days.

I read over some old comics around the time of their visit to the Oracle, and there was something that make me laugh 2 or 3 times per strip. Now there doesn't seem to be any verve or spark left, none of the old freewheeling wit and repartee. Nothing like the spiked chain wielding half-ogre that made Roy comment "I thought I smelled cheese around here." :smallbiggrin:

Which makes me very sad. Ah well, at least the old comics are still there to make one crack a smile. :smallfrown:

[Optimystik]

...You'd think a fey with the air subtype would lean more toward chaos.

Elements (Akadi, Kossuth, Grumbar, Istishia as examples) are neutral. They can all be both calm and violent.


Why was Kubota hated? I don;t remember seeing people complaining about him to the degree that they have regarding Miko or Celia.

Kubota was a bastard, but he was a consistent bastard. He wasn't smart one minute then a fool the next.

He also got his comeuppance, something Celia has yet to receive, but very very richly deserves.

[Assassin89]

I just found something that might have been forgotten. Celia actually tried to apologize for her actions, but was interrupted by Haley before she could finish. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html)

[Golden-Esque]

Somewhere Rich wrote that resurtecting Roy was going to come at a "large personal cost" to one of the Main Characters. Everyone seemed to think that this mean Belkar would die, but I knew better!

This did not come as a surprise to me. Money is Haley's life after all, and her entire storyline revolves around raising the money to pay her father's bail.

[Quorothorn]

Goodnight. :smallsmile: The thing about Greysky is that Haley didn't even mince her words when burying the place (then again, Celia did fail to notice someone being killed, a mugging and bribary as she wandered into town somehow).

Her peripheral vision leaves something to be desired.

Anyway, here is the PH stuff:
“A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them. Jozan, a cleric who helps others according to their needs, is neutral good.”
“A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society. Soveliss, a ranger who waylays the evil baron’s tax collectors, is chaotic good.”

This is what I mean when I say that Neutral Good is ‘pure” Good: the only described difference between NG and CG is that CG actively dislikes authority whereas NG is perfectly fine with working with it.

“A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished. Alhandra, a paladin who fights evil without mercy and protects the innocent without hesitation, is lawful good.”
“A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government. Ember, a monk who follows her discipline without being swayed either by the demands of those in need or by the temptations of evil, is lawful neutral.”

Huh.


Why was Kubota hated? I don;t remember seeing people complaining about him to the degree that they have regarding Miko or Celia.

Well, I hate him; he's just annoyingly smug. On the other hand, he got exactly what he deserved, so that balances it.


I like Celia, and want a Coffepress item with her picture.
(preferably that pose when she offered to renegotiate Haleys contract:smalltongue: LIGHTNINGS!)

We actually already have a Celia Cafepress shirt (http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick/2114602).

[Nevrmore]

Especially this last contract reinstatement. People have been accusing the poor gal of all kinds of horrors, but noone seems to be able to remember that not everyone is an omniscient reader of the comic.
Here's a pretty good scale to determine if the deal you worked out was good or not:

If it ends with your enemies happy, and your teammates mad, you DID IT WRONG.

[Quorothorn]

Here's a pretty good scale to determine if the deal you worked out was good or not:

If it ends with your enemies happy, and your teammates mad, you DID IT WRONG.

Precisely. A GOOD compromise leaves ALL parties mad. That's the rule (otherwise it ain't really a compromise, eh?:smallamused:).

[Optimystik]

Here's a pretty good scale to determine if the deal you worked out was good or not:

If it ends with your enemies happy, and your teammates mad, you DID IT WRONG.

*applauds*

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for posting the alignment examples. I didn't notice Kubota really being smug. He was as snobbish as Roy often is, though, which is probably how most of the nobles acted in AC (not that I'm justifying his behaviour; while I respect him for his planning abilities, his view that he was better because he was a noble meant that I wouldn;t class him as a suitable leader.

I did make sense when I made a definition between being smug and being snobbish, right? If not, I'm sorry if that last paragraph contradicted itself (it made sense to me).

[Faramir]

Aye.

Not out of the comic, but she definitely needs a good swift kick in the butt. And I think Haley is likely to give it to her.

[Quorothorn]

Thanks for posting the alignment examples. I didn't notice Kubota really being smug. He was as snobbish as Roy often is, though, which is probably how most of the nobles acted in AC (not that I'm justifying his behaviour; while I respect him for his planning abilities, his view that he was better because he was a noble meant that I wouldn;t class him as a suitable leader.

I did make sense when I made a definition between being smug and being snobbish, right? If not, I'm sorry if that last paragraph contradicted itself (it made sense to me).

Oh yeah, you made sense there, and I agree there's a (somewhat subtle) distinction: he just seemed snobbish AND smug to me, is all. :smallbiggrin:

You hit the nail on the head with that section in your post I highlighted, incidentally: it's always been my opinion that the best leaders care for those they lead. Kubota...clearly didn't, shall we say.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Here's a pretty good scale to determine if the deal you worked out was good or not:

If it ends with your enemies happy, and your teammates mad, you DID IT WRONG.

Celia: But they aren't our enemies anymore! That's the beauty of it!

Another Theoretical Comeuppance Scenario Follows (Spoiler'd because it actually seems almost-semi-plausible speculation):

Thief1: Wh...where am I?
Thief2: The boss paid for ALL of our resurrections! Ain't he a great guy?
Celia: Hello, members of the Thieves Guild! It brings me great pleasure to inform you that you have all been granted-
Thief1: Hey look! It's that sylph the boss wanted dead!
Thief2: Let's bring the boss her head to show our grattitude!
Thieves1-31: Sneak Attack!
Celia: Wait, wait! It was m-ARRRRRRRGGGGHHH!!!

[Quorothorn]

Celia: But they aren't our enemies anymore! That's the beauty of it!

Another Theoretical Comeuppance Scenario Follows (Spoiler'd because it actually seems almost-semi-plausible speculation):

Thief1: Wh...where am I?
Thief2: The boss paid for ALL of our resurrections! Ain't he a great guy?
Celia: Hello, members of the Thieves Guild! It brings me great pleasure to inform you that you have all been granted-
Thief1: Hey look! It's that sylph the boss wanted dead!
Thief2: Let's bring the boss her head to show our grattitude!
Thieves1-31: Sneak Attack!
Celia: Wait, wait! It was m-ARRRRRRRGGGGHHH!!!

*Facepalm.* :smallamused:

[Ganurath]

Celia: But they aren't our enemies anymore! That's the beauty of it!They aren't Celia's enemies any more, she doesn't owe them anything. Haley, on the other hand...

[Tempest Fennac]

That would be a great scenario with the revived thieves. The fact that she apparently really doesn't care about what the people who were killed were like really sums up why I don't class her as good.

[Quorothorn]

That would be a great scenario with the revived thieves. The fact that she apparently really doesn't care about what the people who were killed were like really sums up why I don't class her as good.

True: it's a code, which means it fits, say, LN (I still think it's amusing that the LG and LN descriptions are so alike). Or TN. Or whatever.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Nay. I like Celia, and think she fits into the scheme of things well enough. And she hasn't actually hurt the party it could be said.

She does seem to have good intentions, of course some say the road to hell is paved with them.

[Tempest Fennac]

If it wasn't for her, Roy would have probably been revived in Cliffport by now, or Durkon would have recieved a message from there by now. The only reason they are stuck in Greysky is because Celia is basically selfish and incapable of listening to advice from people who know what they are doing.

[Lissou]

If it wasn't for her, Roy would have probably been revived in Cliffport by now, or Durkon would have recieved a message from there by now. The only reason they are stuck in Greysky is because Celia is basically selfish and incapable of listening to advice from people who know what they are doing.

Hum... Did you miss the part when they talked about how far Cliffport was? They would still be on the road, and far from Cliffport. That's why Celia tried to speed things up by going to Greysky, which was much closer.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html
See, Cliffport was "way more than four weeks away", even if they could find horses.

Not to mention, Durkon most likely has been contacted, and this also is thanks to Celia. Their chance of meeting a cleric willing to help them on their way to Cliffport wouldn't be that high. Don't forget they didn't have money at that time (Haley stole some from Frog-guy to have enough to raise Roy).

So, to sum up, instead of being on their way to Cliffport with a sick Belkar and no money, they're in Greysky with a healthy Belkar (whether it's good or bad, I leave that up to your judgement), no money (and a debt) and Roy about to be raised. I'd say their situation is way better.

[Optimystik]

So, to sum up, instead of being on their way to Cliffport with a sick Belkar and no money, they're in Greysky with a healthy Belkar (whether it's good or bad, I leave that up to your judgement), no money (and a debt) and Roy about to be raised. I'd say their situation is way better.

Things are looking up in spite of Celia, not because of her. What you're doing is akin to crediting Lien's refusal to retreat as the reason why things worked out between Elan and the orcs - there were many, many more factors involved.

[Tempest Fennac]

I forgot about that to be honest (I just remembered Roy's comments in 600).

[Lissou]

Things are looking up in spite of Celia, not because of her. What you're doing is akin to crediting Lien's refusal to retreat as the reason why things worked out between Elan and the orcs - there were many, many more factors involved.

She is the one who went to Greysky, where there are more clerics than on the road, and she is the one who got the Guild to agree to raise Roy. There is a part of chance in it, but still, she consciously did both those things, and both helped.