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Immutep
2009-01-10, 09:57 AM
I've been working on a homebrew character class and i was wanting peoples opinions or suggestions.

SCARION
Not for everyone that has discovered a talent for the arcane is the focussed life of the sorcerer, some prefer to develop a strong body as well, seeing the sorcerers and fighters as the extremists of the world. For those who wish to nurture their arcane talents coupled with a desire to learn a more physical means of combat, there is the way of the Scarion.

Adventures: Scarions adventure for several reasons, a love for the open road, a means of learning new skills and enhancing old ones, a wish to write wrongs (or cause them!) But perhaps the most powerful draw is the chance to test both fighting and magical capabilities against a range of situations and opponents.

Characteristics: Scarions are essentially people who discovered that they share a sorcerers talent for casting magic, but were also concerned with learning to wield weapons and military methods to the cost of maximising this potential.

Alignment: Scarions tend to shy away from strict regime and disciplinary behaviour and so are not usually lawful.
Religion: Scarions are not usually very religious, many pay lip service to a particular belief system but are generally too self absorbed to devote themselves to a deity. Those that do however, number amongst the most feared and renowned crusaders of their chosen patron.

Background: Many Scarions have some form of apprenticeship with either a sorcerer or wizard before setting off on their own which usually happens because the master believe his student to have “their head in the clouds” when in truth the magic that the apprentice is instructed in is paid attention to and what is mistaken as day dreaming about swords is a very real desire to develop other talents. The few Scarions who train a Scarion apprentice will have a more successful and lengthy time together.

Races: Scarions are almost entirely always human or at least partially human, their tendency towards diverse learning borrows them to this class much more than other races although you also see members of other races take this class but such instances are rare to unheard of.

Other classes: Scarions work well with others provided they share a common goal or ideology. They can use their cross talented nature to support a primary caster or to bring additional fighting skills to the front rank. In this respect they share something in common with Bards, but a Bard is more of a diverse learner than even a Scarion. Except in very rare instances Scarions get on well enough even with other arcane casters, not as powerful as primary casters they are sometimes goaded but never considered a threat, whilst their time in training means they’ve learned to accept this sort of attitude without letting it bother them, which usually brings acceptance.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Charisma is Important to Scarions for casting spells and determining how powerful those spells are. Constitution, Strength and dexterity are important to a Scarion when fighting in Combat.
Alignment: Any (usually unlawful)
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills
The Scarions class skills (and the key ability foe each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher script (Int), Gather information (Cha), Handle animal (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis).
Skill points at first level: (4+Int Modifier) x4
Skill points at Each Additional level: 4+Int Modifier

Class Features
All the following are class features of the Scarion.
Weapon and Armour proficiency: A Scarion is proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Scarions are proficient with light armour and bucklers. Scarions are able to use light armour and bucklers without taking a spell failure chance for somatic components, they suffer the normal spell failure chance if wearing any other form of armour or carrying any other shield type, even if they gain proficiency through other means.

SCARION SPELLS KNOWN
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st 4 1* - - - - -
2nd 5 2* - - - - -
3rd 6 3 1* - - - -
4th 6 3 2* - - - -
5th 6 4 3 - - - -
6th 6 4 3 1* - - -
7th 6 4 4 2* - - -
8th 6 4 4 3 - - -
9th 6 4 4 3 1* - -
10th 6 4 4 4 2* - -
11th 6 4 4 4 3 - -
12th 6 4 4 4 3 1* -
13th 6 4 4 4 4 2* -
14th 6 4 4 4 4 3 -
15th 6 4 4 4 4 3 1*
16th 6 5 4 4 4 4 2*
17th 6 5 5 4 4 4 3
18th 6 5 5 5 4 4 3
19th 6 5 5 5 5 4 4
20th 6 5 5 5 5 5 4
* Provided the Scarion has a high enough Charisma score to have a bonus spell of this level.


Spells: A Scarion casts spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the Scarion spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or cleric must (see below).
To learn or cast a spell, a Scarion must have a charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Scarion’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Scarion’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a Scarion can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the Table below "The Scarion". In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score (see Table 1-1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, Page 8 in the players hand book). When the below Table –The Scarion, indicates that the Scarion gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level (for instance, 1st level spells for a 1st level Scarion), he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third Scarion level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the Scarion “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level Scarion the Scarion can cast. A Scarion may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time he gains knew spells known for the level.
As noted above, a Scarion need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spells he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 4th level and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th 16th,, 20th and so on), a Scarion gains a bonus feat that must be chosen from those allowed by a fighter, or an item creation or metamagic feat.

THE SCARION
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +1 +2 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 2 0 - - - - -
2nd +2 +3 +3 +3 3 0 - - - - -
3rd +3 +3 +3 +3 3 1 0 - - - -
4th +4 +4 +4 +4 3 2 0 - - - -
5th +5 +4 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 3 3 1 - - - -
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 3 3 2 0 - - -
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 3 3 2 0 - - -
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 3 3 3 1 - - -
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6 3 3 3 2 0 - -
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +7 Bonus Feat 3 3 3 2 0 - -
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 3 3 3 3 1 - -
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8 3 3 3 3 2 0 -
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8 3 4 3 3 2 0 -
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +9 4 3 4 3 3 1 -
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 Bonus Feat 4 4 3 4 3 2 0
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 4 4 4 3 3 2 0
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 4 5 4 4 3 3 1
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11 4 5 5 5 4 3 2
19th +19/+14/+9+4 +11 +11 +11 4 5 5 5 5 4 3
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Bonus Feat 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Scarion Spell List by Spell Level:
0 level Spells or cantrips: Arcane Mark, Cure Minor Wounds, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Know Direction, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestigitation, Read Magic, Resistance.
1st Level Spells: Alarm, Endure Elements, Comprehend Languages, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Secret Doors, Erase, Expeditious retreat, Feather Fall, Identify, Mage Armour, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Mount, Obscure Object, Protection from Chaos//Evil/Good/Law, Remove Fear, Shield, Sleep, Summon Monster I, True Strike, Undetectable Alignment.
2nd Level Spells: Animal Messenger, Bear’s Endurance, Blur, Bull’s Strength, Cat’s Grace, Continual Flame, Cure Moderate Wounds, Darkness, Delay Poison, Detect Thoughts, Eagle’s Splendour, Fox’s Cunning, Glitterdust, Heroism, Invisibility, Locate Object, Misdirection, Owl’s Wisdom, Protection from Arrows, Rage, Resist Energy, Shatter, Silence, Sound Burst, Summon Monster II, Summon Swarm, Tongues, Whispering Wind.
3rd Level Spells: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Cure Serious Wounds, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Explosive Runes, Glibness, Good Hope, Haste, Illusory Script, Invisibility Sphere, Keen Edge, Leomund’s Tiny Hut, Magic Weapon/ Greater, Protection From Energy, Remove Curse, Scrying, Secret Page, See Invisibility, Sepia Snake Sigil, Slow, Speak With Animals, Summon Monster III, Water Breathing.
4th Level Spells: Break Enchantment, Cure Critical Wounds, Detect Scrying, Freedom of Movement, Invisibility/ Greater, Legend Lore, Leomunds Secure Shelter, Locate Creature, Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse, Speak with Plants, Stoneskin, Summon Monster IV, Zone of Silence.
5th Level Spells: Cure Light Wounds/ Mass, Dispel Magic/ Greater, Dream, Heroism/ Greater, Major Creation, Permanency, Shadow Walk, Summon Monster V, Telekinesis.
6th Level Spells: Analyze Dweomer, Antimagic Field, Bear’s Endurance/ Mass, Bull’s Strength/ Mass, Cat’s Grace/ Mass, Cure Moderate Wounds Mass, Eagle’s Splendour Mass, Find the Path, Fox’s Cunning/ Mass, Heroe’s Feast, Scrying/ Greater, Summon Monster VI, Sympathetic Vibration.

I was thinking of possibly making the following changes to this:
1) drop the reflex save to poor
2) instead of giving martial weapon proficiency outright, replace this with a signature weapon progression (gaining proficiency at 1st level, Weapon focus later, then weapon specialization etc.
3) possibly reduce the number of bonus feats (especially if i introduce the signature weapon system discussed above)
4) Drop the Hit Die to d8
Any advice is welcome, with the exception of offering a multiclass system that produces similar effect.

P.s. If someone could tell me how to put spoilers into a post it would be very beneficial, thanks.

Myou
2009-01-10, 10:11 AM
I my opinion I'd say that's very overpowered. It has all good saves, a full BAB and d10 hit dice. With a few self-applied buffs it's a better melee fighter than most fighters. And the casting abilty gives more spells than I think it should as well.

I'd say you should reduce the spells per day to 4 4 4 4 4 4 4, give bad reflex saves, d8 dice, 3/4 BAB and no bonus feats at all.

Aren't there already classes that do this sort of mixture though? Maybe you can look at them for guidance. (Or just play one of them.)

Immutep
2009-01-10, 10:22 AM
The spells were actually robbed straight from the bard, with 39 less spells to choose from, but gaining access to one bonus spell sooner.

If i did everything you're suggesting, i've got a bard without bardic music or bardic knowledge. Half as many skills per level, with basically an uprated HD & swapped reflex for fort.?!? I know there was some tweaking needed for balance i just wasn't sure which areas were best, wasn't thinking of doing them all!

Debihuman
2009-01-10, 10:25 AM
You really could do with some formatting. It's hard to read your entry. It helps if you separate your paragraphs and if you use bolding for headers.

I recommend that you read the FAQ and look through the Homebrewing section which is stickied at the top. You'll find a lot of helpful infomation there. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313.

You don't need a spoiler for a class; you need to format your tables properly. Just copy and paste and edit your stuff. It takes a bit of work to get it right.

As for putting in spoilers, just use [] around the word spoiler and end with [] around /spoiler like this [/spoiler].

You use QUOTE and then copy into your earlier post if you prefer. And this way you can see the spoilers too.



SCARION

Not for everyone that has discovered a talent for the arcane is the focussed life of the sorcerer, some prefer to develop a strong body as well, seeing the sorcerers and fighters as the extremists of the world. For those who wish to nurture their arcane talents coupled with a desire to learn a more physical means of combat, there is the way of the Scarion.

Adventures: Scarions adventure for several reasons, a love for the open road, a means of learning new skills and enhancing old ones, a wish to write wrongs (or cause them!) But perhaps the most powerful draw is the chance to test both fighting and magical capabilities against a range of situations and opponents.

Characteristics: Scarions are essentially people who discovered that they share a sorcerers talent for casting magic, but were also concerned with learning to wield weapons and military methods to the cost of maximising this potential.

Alignment: Scarions tend to shy away from strict regime and disciplinary behaviour and so are not usually lawful.

Religion: Scarions are not usually very religious, many pay lip service to a particular belief system but are generally too self absorbed to devote themselves to a deity. Those that do however, number amongst the most feared and renowned crusaders of their chosen patron.

Background: Many Scarions have some form of apprenticeship with either a sorcerer or wizard before setting off on their own which usually happens because the master believe his student to have “their head in the clouds” when in truth the magic that the apprentice is instructed in is paid attention to and what is mistaken as day dreaming about swords is a very real desire to develop other talents. The few Scarions who train a Scarion apprentice will have a more successful and lengthy time together.

Races: Scarions are almost entirely always human or at least partially human, their tendency towards diverse learning borrows them to this class much more than other races although you also see members of other races take this class but such instances are rare to unheard of.

Other classes: Scarions work well with others provided they share a common goal or ideology. They can use their cross talented nature to support a primary caster or to bring additional fighting skills to the front rank. In this respect they share something in common with Bards, but a Bard is more of a diverse learner than even a Scarion. Except in very rare instances Scarions get on well enough even with other arcane casters, not as powerful as primary casters they are sometimes goaded but never considered a threat, whilst their time in training means they’ve learned to accept this sort of attitude without letting it bother them, which usually brings acceptance.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Charisma is Important to Scarions for casting spells and determining how powerful those spells are. Constitution, Strength and dexterity are important to a Scarion when fighting in Combat.
Alignment: Any (usually unlawful)
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills
The Scarions class skills (and the key ability foe each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher script (Int), Gather information (Cha), Handle animal (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis).

Skill points at first level: (4+Int Modifier) x4
Skill points at each additional level: 4+Int Modifier

Class Features
All the following are class features of the Scarion.

Weapon and Armour proficiency: A Scarion is proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Scarions are proficient with light armour and bucklers. Scarions are able to use light armour and bucklers without taking a spell failure chance for somatic components, they suffer the normal spell failure chance if wearing any other form of armour or carrying any other shield type, even if they gain proficiency through other means.


I hope this helps.

Debby

Immutep
2009-01-10, 10:39 AM
You really could do with some formatting. It's hard to read your entry. It helps if you separate your paragraphs and if you use bolding for headers.

I hope this helps.

Debby

Yeah i copied and pasted straight from word where i'd written it up. The preview didn't show the tables all skewed up though so not sure what happened there. Thanks for the info

Lady Tialait
2009-01-10, 10:40 AM
I agree you need the same changed, lowering the Ref, the HD, so forth and so on.

But, I also think an ability is in order to make this class stand out. I'm a little bit sore so my brain is exactly working. Have fun.

Solaris
2009-01-10, 10:47 AM
The spells were actually robbed straight from the bard, with 39 less spells to choose from, but gaining access to one bonus spell sooner.

If i did everything you're suggesting, i've got a bard without bardic music or bardic knowledge. Half as many skills per level, with basically an uprated HD & swapped reflex for fort.?!? I know there was some tweaking needed for balance i just wasn't sure which areas were best, wasn't thinking of doing them all!

Yep, a bard without bardic abilities and with a different spell list. So come up with something to make this class unique, yo.

Myou
2009-01-10, 10:47 AM
The spells were actually robbed straight from the bard, with 39 less spells to choose from, but gaining access to one bonus spell sooner.

If i did everything you're suggesting, i've got a bard without bardic music or bardic knowledge. Half as many skills per level, with basically an uprated HD & swapped reflex for fort.?!? I know there was some tweaking needed for balance i just wasn't sure which areas were best, wasn't thinking of doing them all!

Well, like Tialait suggested, give the class some sort of signature ability, like Bardic Music for bards. With a good (but not overpowering) ability I'd say it would be well balanced.

Immutep
2009-01-10, 11:19 AM
So what about the weapon progression then? it falls into the character of the class quite well. Although one thing i was worrying about by doing this was how the abilities should be spread out, if i gave them profiency at 1st level, how long till they get weapon focus? If they gaind weapon specialization too quickly then it would unbalance their capabilities but if it came too late then they'd never fit enough signature weapon abilities in to make it significant.

Lappy9000
2009-01-10, 12:01 PM
One thing that would really help you would be to get yourself a table. You can find one in the Guide to Homebrewing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) by Fax Celestis.

The thing that bugs me most about this class is that it doesn't really do anything special. It does fit the missing niche in core of an arcane Gish (fighter/mage) character, but nothing more. You need some defining features that set it apart from the pack.

Take the symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4828052&postcount=37), for example. I figured that noone could learn magic and martial fighting at the same time, so symbols are warriors blessed with arcane magic. In addition to low-level spells, they get auras that buff teammates, and abilities that greatly alter their appearances and traits.

Overall, it's not bad, although you may want to stick with +0 +2 +2 Saves and 2 + Int skills. It's just kinda bland.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-10, 12:35 PM
I agree with the others in that a 3/4 BAB is far more appropriate. You also may want to change the spell list; cure light wounds, for example, does not really fit and kind of overpowers the class. The spell list should be based more around buffs for one's self and others, with a good helping of generally useful spells that aren't directly for combat. Also, yes, Ref save should be dropped down to poor.

I think if you adjust the spell list especially, and perhaps make some flavor special ability, it should work out well. One idea for a flavor ability to really exemplify what the class does would be the following:

Battle Preparation: Twice a day, the scarion may cast a spell without any chance of arcane spell failure caused by armor or shields. The spell must normally take one standard action or less to cast, and when the scarion uses this ability, it instead takes one full-round action to cast the spell. The scarion cannot use this ability while in combat or severely distracted (anything which would require a Concentration check with a DC above 15).

Since your scarion class is focused on strength and damage (hence a melee class), I imagine them as likely wearing medium armor. This ability would therefore allow them, when they were about to enter battle, to cast a spell without any chance of failure without having to take off their armor, cast it, and then put it on again. I notice you make scarions immune to any chance of failure from light armor, so this may not be an ability you find useful, but it is an example of the sort of thing you could add to enhance the class's flavor and unique qualities.

Llama231
2009-01-10, 12:47 PM
It seems awfully similar to a Duskblade...
Why humans? It does not make much sense to me.
It makes the Fighter look even worse.:smallfrown: Poor Fighter.

Immutep
2009-01-10, 06:05 PM
If they wear medium armour then they're really going to hinder themselves as they'll suffer arcane spell failure chance, the cure abilities came from the bard spell list, but i figured since using them would reduce the number of buff spells you could cast then they'd pretty much be an emergency use thing only.

I know the class is quite "bland", but since it was essentially a cross between sorcerer and fighter (both pretty bland classes) it made sense. besides which character should come from roleplay not character class.

It wasn't specifically only for humans, but it made sense that it would only appeal to beings with a thirst for knowledge of various kinds which, humans fit perfectly and other races would be much rarer.

Why does a fighter look bad? feats every two levels is extremely good, just a bit flavourless, but with imagination fighters aren't even boring.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-10, 06:14 PM
If they wear medium armour then they're really going to hinder themselves as they'll suffer arcane spell failure chance, the cure abilities came from the bard spell list, but i figured since using them would reduce the number of buff spells you could cast then they'd pretty much be an emergency use thing only.

The point of the ability I suggested wasn't that it was necessarily the best choice; it was that you need something to add crunchy flavor to the class if you want to get players excited about it. Also, why is Analyze Dweomer on their class spell list? Is it just straight off the bard list? That's not a good reason, to be frank.

Yes, character should come from roleplay, but on the other hand, crunch should not be bland either. That's why there are paladins with all their special abilities, spells with the names of famous wizards in them, and magic items that rely more on appearance than actual usefulness (dull gray ioun stones are full of win). Just saying.

Immutep
2009-01-10, 07:09 PM
Yes Analyze Dweomer was straight from the bard spell list, i didn't want to mess around with the spells too much, except that i removed alot of the illusionary/suggesting/dominating spells from there so not to take away from the bard being a viable character choice.

I get where you're coming from with the idea for the armour, but i was trying to limit them to lighter armour unless they're having to go full-time soldiering so as to cap they're combat abilities and not overshadow primary combatents.

The idea i was going for was to have the Scarion as the second best choice for most combat situations, if you really need a sorcerer, but he's been immobilized for whatever reason the the Scarion can fill in, If your front line needs reinforcing then he can step into this role as well. Diplomacy and more subtle stuff is something they're going to struggle with compared to other classes. And if the party is without it's primary healer for very long then you're going to struggle there too. It also makes it possible for a party to get by without a primary caster or tank (say for example a party of four includes a bard, scarion, rougue & monk) which is great if you're planning to limit high powered casters in a realm setting, or play a campaign where you're party is made up of freedom fighters against a tyranical overlord where millitary training might not be available.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-10, 07:12 PM
Yes Analyze Dweomer was straight from the bard spell list, i didn't want to mess around with the spells too much, except that i removed alot of the illusionary/suggesting/dominating spells from there so not to take away from the bard being a viable character choice.

Out of curiousity: Why? Why did you not want to change that spell list? You said you are basing your class's flavor off of the sorcerer and the fighter, whereas the bard has a very different feel (and hence spells to match). Just because the number of spells per level is the same does not mean the lists need to be similar. For example, druids and clerics have almost the same spell progression, but very distinct lists.

Immutep
2009-01-10, 07:47 PM
Out of curiousity: Why? Why did you not want to change that spell list? You said you are basing your class's flavor off of the sorcerer and the fighter.

I see what you're saying, i suppose it had more to do with not wanting to have to decide what sorcerer spells to disclude and the fact that the bard progression makes compensations for only having six levels (some of the spells are available earlier than they would have been for a sorcerer, i'm not sure if this gives them access to sorcerer level 7th spells though i don't think it does) more than anything else. But to the same point it states that many hexblades get their training from sorcerers and yet they have different spell lists from them so i didn't see it as a catestrophic problem myself.