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Assassin89
2009-01-10, 12:49 PM
In my D&D sessions, I play a 3rd level Cleric with the healing and good domains. I plan to reach 14th level in return to elemental evil and multiclass to wizard. What I am asking is how I should set up my wizard levels, because I already have the necessary ranks in knowledge (religion) and knowledge (arcana). In the case of barred schools, I do not want the simple take divination and then take spell focus(school I would want to take).

Edit: I forgot to mention the feats my character has:
Sacred Boost (from complete divine)
Augment Healing (from complete divine)

jcsw
2009-01-10, 12:53 PM
In before someone says it's a trap!

But really:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=860220

Kurald Galain
2009-01-10, 01:01 PM
Depends on what you want, really.

The best schools are conjuration and transmutation.

There are numerous different class features in case you don't want a familiar, or don't need scribe scroll.

You may be able to get into MT with only one wizard level, using Precocious Apprentice (which you should really have taken at first level, though, and the legality of this trick is dubious at best).

Curmudgeon
2009-01-10, 01:14 PM
Mystic Theurge is the Swiss Army Knife of spellcasting. It's not the optimal choice for any dedicated tool-user, but it's got lots of options in one package. Mystic Theurges are pretty good when you don't have enough information to anticipate the best selection of spells, simply because MTs can prepare so very many spells.

You'll be behind on caster levels, so the obvious answer is to get Practiced Spellcaster, which you can do for either or both of your base classes. I also suggest going with the Immediate Magic Wizard variant in Players Handbook II.

Dacia Brabant
2009-01-10, 01:41 PM
In my D&D sessions, I play a 3rd level Cleric with the healing and good domains. I plan to reach 14th level in return to elemental evil and multiclass to wizard. What I am asking is how I should set up my wizard levels, because I already have the necessary ranks in knowledge (religion) and knowledge (arcana). In the case of barred schools, I do not want the simple take divination and then take spell focus.

Funny, I also played a Mystic Theurge in a Return to ToEE campaign. The class is a trap though as jcsw said, but it can be used as filler to get you into better dual-progression classes or once you're no longer able to level in the better PrC.

That said, there really aren't any better dual-progression options with what you're starting with, at least that I can think of. My suggestion is to see if you can use an early-entry method into MT on the Arcane side of your casting (as in, only having to take one level of Wizard) and then go MT from level 5-14. Your specialization would depend on your role in the party (likely crowd control/debuffing or buffing/support) but Evocation and Abjuration are probably the best choices for barred schools since Evocation sucks and you'll have access to many of the Abjuration spells on your Cleric list. (Or you could ban Necromancy, since a lot of the spells don't seem to fit your character concept, though I wouldn't recommend dropping it since you'd lose Spectral Hand, one of the best low-level spells for a Cleric/Wizard.)

I'm not sure you'll be able to do an early-entry trick though since you've already created the character and a lot of those methods need to be started at level 1, either in race or starting feat choices.

Assassin89
2009-01-11, 09:36 AM
That said, there really aren't any better dual-progression options with what you're starting with, at least that I can think of. My suggestion is to see if you can use an early-entry method into MT on the Arcane side of your casting (as in, only having to take one level of Wizard) and then go MT from level 5-14. Your specialization would depend on your role in the party (likely crowd control/debuffing or buffing/support) but Evocation and Abjuration are probably the best choices for barred schools since Evocation sucks and you'll have access to many of the Abjuration spells on your Cleric list. (Or you could ban Necromancy, since a lot of the spells don't seem to fit your character concept, though I wouldn't recommend dropping it since you'd lose Spectral Hand, one of the best low-level spells for a Cleric/Wizard.)


I'm not so sure about barring evocation because evocation has magic missile, one of the more effective spells.

Eldariel
2009-01-11, 09:59 AM
I'm not so sure about barring evocation because evocation has magic missile, one of the more effective spells.

To be honest, Magic Missile is rarely so good that you should prepare it until you literally can't make use out of your level 1 slots to start with; it does steady damage, but very low damage and generally you don't need to deal any to end encounters. And Gloves of the Starry Sky [MiC] actually allows you to cast the spell with banned Evocation. So it's hardly a reason not to ban Evocation. Lesser Orbs of X are generally superior to Magic Missile anyways.

jcsw
2009-01-11, 10:50 AM
I wouldn't ban anything at all, you're a mystic theurge, you don't need any more quantity.

Assassin89
2009-01-11, 04:27 PM
I wouldn't ban anything at all, you're a mystic theurge, you don't need any more quantity.

The problem is setting the wizard levels.

I think a little more information is necessary

CG Human
Deity: Pelor
Str 10 Dex 5 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 18 Cha 11

Any recommended familiars, schools for being a wizard, or should I take a different class for arcane spells?

Keld Denar
2009-01-11, 04:40 PM
Int 12

I hope you are planning on buying a Headband of Int or some such, otherwise, you are limited to level 2 spells, maximal. You still get the higher level spell slots, you just can't fill em with anything. Also unfortuante, there arn't really and wisdom based arcane casters. Maybe something psionic and use Psychic Theurge?

monty
2009-01-11, 04:48 PM
Are you stuck with those stats? If possible, then, trade Cleric for Archivist so you can put the 18 in Int and actually have competent casting in both classes.

Assassin89
2009-01-11, 05:00 PM
Are you stuck with those stats? If possible, then, trade Cleric for Archivist so you can put the 18 in Int and actually have competent casting in both classes.

Yes, I am stuck with those stats, and the character has already been created because I am on a continuing setting where my character is working off a debt for a great conjurer.

monty
2009-01-11, 05:14 PM
Yes, I am stuck with those stats, and the character has already been created because I am on a continuing setting where my character is working off a debt for a great conjurer.

Then I'd strongly suggest not going into wizard, because you'd be getting almost nothing out of it and severely retarding your cleric advancement.

holywhippet
2009-01-11, 05:33 PM
You could take at best 2 levels of mystic theurge before you stop getting any benefit out of it. You'd still be getting divine spells but no arcane spells and you miss out on the benefits of levelling up as a cleric. If you had higher charisma (I'm slightly surprised you don't since it is handy for a cleric) you could go for sorcerer instead.

Flickerdart
2009-01-11, 05:37 PM
Mystic Theurge isn't a trap if you use Ur-priest for your Divine casting. If you can rebuild, do so and start with Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2.

Rei_Jin
2009-01-11, 05:49 PM
Looking at your stats, I'd be inclined rather to take the few levels you need in Wizard, then go into the Geomancer class. At least then you'll be able to cast higher level Wizard spells, and whilst wearing armor no less.

Of course, this is not a path to power, but with the stats that you have, I hardly think that your game is an overpowering experiment in optimisation.

ericgrau
2009-01-11, 06:55 PM
This is salvageable. You can get a headband of intellect in time for your higher level spells. You may want to boost int every 4 levels if necessary to keep up, not wis. With a lower main stat and lower spell levels, I would not count on having high spell save DCs. You could also do the same with charisma and sorcerer levels.

It looks like you want to play a healer/damage dealer. This is viable, though you could do better with more complicated/clever spells. Remember that you can't heal and deal damage in the same round; you'll have to do one or the other or half and half. i.e., you'll be more versatile but weaker.

For starters you'll have tons of extra spell slots so try spending them on long duration buffs in the morning. You shouldn't be using low level spells for healing anyway; so you can burn those up. Now you can save your high level healing for allies that are about to die, and burn wizard spells in the meantime for damage. Get tons of low level utility (e.g., comprehend languages) & restorative (remove X, restoration, etc., etc.) spells on scrolls. Since you'll have scrolls from two classes, this will make you extremely versatile in the face of odd situations. Since utility spells don't come up very often they belong on scrolls only, not your spell list.

If you want something more complicated & effective, I would look at other spell options besides healing and damage. Mass disabling spells tend to be powerful (walls/barriers, AoE save-or-suck, etc.), as are non-stat buffs. "Non-stat buffs" that have some special effect, not a +X bonus. But you can still cast +X stat buffs in the morning or right before combat without wasting combat time. Illusions are another option. All of these also have more good low level options, unlike damage spells which are more level dependent. Stay away from save-or-dies that only trigger 1 save, especially since your save DC is low.

Feats: You could get empower to augment damage and healing. I wouldn't get spell focus, as you shouldn't be relying too much on saves anyway. If you use a lot of low level buffs a rod of lesser extend may be helpful. For high level buffs you'd get the extend spell feat. A magic item creation feat or two is a good option, since you have two classes to pull prerequisite spells from. Especially if you get practiced spellcaster to keep your caster level up.

Dacia Brabant
2009-01-11, 08:17 PM
I'm not so sure about barring evocation because evocation has magic missile, one of the more effective spells.

Well I disagree though I'm not gonna get into the direct-damage vs. utility/save-or-else argument, but I wouldn't make a choice on specialization just for one spell. (Unless that one spell is Charm Person maybe.)

And I concur with others who've said that your Int and Cha are both too low to make Mystic Theurge worthwhile, or even any levels in a casting class based on those stats. Perhaps look into Psychic Warrior, which is Wis-based and will get you into Psychic Theurge at Cleric 3/Psychic Warrior 4. Psionics aren't my forte though so I can't help much more than that.

Mando Knight
2009-01-11, 08:29 PM
Question: Would a Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge be (slightly) less of a trap? IIRC, Favored Soul and Sorcerer are both spontaneous Charisma-Casting...

The Glyphstone
2009-01-11, 08:34 PM
That's even more of a trap. Favored Soul requires Charisma for its spells/day, but uses Wisdom for its save DC's. If you only use the cleric spells for healing or buffing, when save DC is irrelevant, the pain is lessened somewhat, but it's still not good.

Gardakan
2009-01-11, 08:36 PM
I have played a mystic theurge for a few games. You need to have 3 good stats. Con, Wis and Int(or Cha...).

I was having at level 12 : 24 in Int, 22 in Wis and 12 in Con(Faerie Mysteries Initiate...

tyckspoon
2009-01-11, 08:57 PM
That's even more of a trap. Favored Soul requires Charisma for its spells/day, but uses Wisdom for its save DC's. If you only use the cleric spells for healing or buffing, when save DC is irrelevant, the pain is lessened somewhat, but it's still not good.

I think the bigger trap is that both classes are using the Sorcerer's delayed spell-level progression, so your minimum entry (barring early-entry tricks) into the class is at level 9. It's delayed payoff for something that isn't all that good to start with.

Flickerdart
2009-01-11, 08:58 PM
Yeah, go Psychic Warrior 3 and into Psychic Theurge. Your Clericzilla'ing is going to be so much better with the nice things Psychic Warriors get in terms of self-buffs.

nightwyrm
2009-01-11, 09:07 PM
Question: Would a Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge be (slightly) less of a trap? IIRC, Favored Soul and Sorcerer are both spontaneous Charisma-Casting...

That's a huge trap. Both classes have slower spell progression than their prep spell counterpart. You'll be entering into MT at level 9 and casting lv 3 spells at level 10.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-11, 09:31 PM
I think the bigger trap is that both classes are using the Sorcerer's delayed spell-level progression, so your minimum entry (barring early-entry tricks) into the class is at level 9. It's delayed payoff for something that isn't all that good to start with.

Ouch, I forgot about that part.

Wizard/Archivist is probably an above sub-par choice for Theurgy, if you're going to do it anyways. You'll need an actual strength score though, to carry around your books.:smallcool:

Flickerdart
2009-01-11, 09:45 PM
Ouch, I forgot about that part.

Wizard/Archivist is probably an above sub-par choice for Theurgy, if you're going to do it anyways. You'll need an actual strength score though, to carry around your books.:smallcool:
Thing is, this guy already has 3 levels of Cleric. Psychic Warrior and Psychic Theurge is pretty much the only option left, with the advantage of being SAD, for the most part (although liberal Animal Affinity will need to be applied to compensate for that STR and CON).

Kurald Galain
2009-01-12, 07:06 AM
Also worth considering: a level of warlock (instead of wizard) and Eldritch Disciple.

Leon
2009-01-12, 07:16 AM
In before someone says it's a trap!

But really:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=860220

Its only a trap to those poor people fixated on optimizing the bejeus out over everything

Gardakan
2009-01-12, 07:48 AM
It is a trap to take Precocious Apprentice at 1st level wizard, then take 3 levels of cleric and go Mystic Theurge...

At level 14 you cast as a wizard level 11 and cleric level 13...

warmachine
2009-01-12, 08:16 AM
It is a trap to take Precocious Apprentice at 1st level wizard, then take 3 levels of cleric and go Mystic Theurge...

At level 14 you cast as a wizard level 11 and cleric level 13...
That makes no sense unless one is claiming Mystic Theurge itself is a trap. At level 14, the standard build is Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 8, casting as Wizard 11 and Cleric 11, and is worse.

Stephen_E
2009-01-12, 04:20 PM
That makes no sense unless one is claiming Mystic Theurge itself is a trap. At level 14, the standard build is Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 8, casting as Wizard 11 and Cleric 11, and is worse.

I think he was been humeour/sarcastic.
The giveaways are the silliness of the statement combined with the "...... at the end of the post which can be used to indicate the tailing off of speech into silence of someone realising they've said something stupid. :-)

Stephen E

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 05:06 PM
Also worth considering: a level of warlock (instead of wizard) and Eldritch Disciple.

This might actually be a good idea. It only takes a one-level dip in Warlock to qualify, which makes it suck less. Furthermore, it gives you some unlimited use stuff to do, and some of the choices are pretty nice. You'll end up with 9th level divine spells and one Lesser invocation. Even better, you can get ranged healing (Healing Blast), or Magic Circle of Protection vs Evil by only spending a turn attempt.

holywhippet
2009-01-12, 05:43 PM
It is a trap to take Precocious Apprentice at 1st level wizard, then take 3 levels of cleric and go Mystic Theurge...


Precocious apprentice is not a valid means of getting the prerequisite for Mystic Theurge. You need to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Note the plural, it only lets you cast a single second level spell and even then it's a maybe.

In this case it's irrelevant, you need at least 15 int or cha to qualify which the player doesn't have. It also needs to be taken as a first level character which the PC isn't either.

JMobius
2009-01-12, 05:51 PM
On a slightly tangential note, I take it that the Cerebramancer is regarded is as much, if not more, a 'trap' than Mystic Theurge?

tyckspoon
2009-01-12, 06:22 PM
On a slightly tangential note, I take it that the Cerebramancer is regarded is as much, if not more, a 'trap' than Mystic Theurge?

Theurgy classes in general are a trap. About the best that can be said for the 'good' ones is that they're not as much of a trap as the early ones. Cerebromancer has the benefits of letting you make a ridiculously SAD character with mage/psion or sorcerer/wilder, but it also has the major downside that arcane magic and psionics mostly cover the same ground. It'd be kind of like doing a gestalt of wizard//wizard and paying three levels for the privilege.

Teron
2009-01-12, 06:52 PM
Of course, it should be emphasised that this "trap" is only disadvantageous next to the absurdity of an optimized spellcaster, and falling into it will still leave you more powerful than most non-casters. A couple rungs below Batman and CoDzilla is by no means a bad place to be.

Assassin89
2009-01-12, 07:14 PM
A few problems with the warlock and psionics is that I am not sure if the DM has the proper sourcebooks for those classes.

monty
2009-01-12, 07:16 PM
A few problems with the warlock and psionics is that I am not sure if the DM has the proper sourcebooks for those classes.

Psionics, at least, are available online for free.

Nohwl
2009-01-12, 07:43 PM
Precocious apprentice is not a valid means of getting the prerequisite for Mystic Theurge. You need to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Note the plural, it only lets you cast a single second level spell and even then it's a maybe.

cast the same spell the next day.

monty
2009-01-12, 07:45 PM
Precocious apprentice is not a valid means of getting the prerequisite for Mystic Theurge. You need to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Note the plural, it only lets you cast a single second level spell and even then it's a maybe.

Except that you can qualify for prestige classes with 0/day of a particular level of spell (such as with a bard), so that argument doesn't work too well.

Aquillion
2009-01-12, 07:55 PM
Precocious apprentice is not a valid means of getting the prerequisite for Mystic Theurge. You need to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Note the plural, it only lets you cast a single second level spell and even then it's a maybe.You can cast many different spells (you don't have to pick just one.) You just can't cast them all in the same day. Nothing in there says 'able to cast multiple 2nd level arcane spells [i]per day'.


Of course, it should be emphasised that this "trap" is only disadvantageous next to the absurdity of an optimized spellcaster, and falling into it will still leave you more powerful than most non-casters. A couple rungs below Batman and CoDzilla is by no means a bad place to be.
Sorta, although if you take the 'usual' entrance route (3 wiz, 3 cleric) you will pretty much suck at sixth level by anyone's standards, and take a little while to build back to usefulness. A bigger problem for this particular character, though, is that 12 int / 11 cha -- 12 or 11 in your casting stat is just too low for a decent caster of just about any sort, whether you want to be optimized or not.

Hmm... to the OP, why do you want to take this route? I assume there's a thematic character reason. There might be other ways to get the same thematic result, though -- you could switch to a deity that grants the Magic domain, if your DM allows it, for instance. Or use Extra Domain or something to add a domain that grants specific arcane-style spells you want... although obviously, neither of these will grant very many castings per day.

If you just want your character to throw around blasts of magic, Warlock is probably the way to go.

Stephen_E
2009-01-12, 08:11 PM
Precocious apprentice is not a valid means of getting the prerequisite for Mystic Theurge. You need to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Note the plural, it only lets you cast a single second level spell and even then it's a maybe.


As has been pointed out there is no requirement that you be able to cast multiple 2nd lev spells per day, and even if there was you could just grab a 2nd lev Pearl of Power and presto you can cast 2 2nd lev spells in one day.

That rest of the Precocious Apprentice/Mystic Theurge debate rests on it been a particuly poorly written feat (an acomplishment given how badly feats are often written) a statement by the feat author that he didn't create the feat with the intent of it been used that way (it should be noted he never made any statement on whether it did/didn't actually work) and the ability for internet forums to argue 6 ways to Sunday based purely on what they think should be, and to claim each way is clearly, with no uncertainty, what the words actually say.

Stephen E

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 08:51 PM
As has been pointed out there is no requirement that you be able to cast multiple 2nd lev spells per day, and even if there was you could just grab a 2nd lev Pearl of Power and presto you can cast 2 2nd lev spells in one day. Close. You can cast one 1nd level spell, then refill it. Since you're still only casting one 2nd level spell, you still don't qualify. Not to mention that a 2nd level Pearl of Power is well out of a 1st level character's price range.


That rest of the Precocious Apprentice/Mystic Theurge debate rests on it been a particuly poorly written feat (an acomplishment given how badly feats are often written) a statement by the feat author that he didn't create the feat with the intent of it been used that way (it should be noted he never made any statement on whether it did/didn't actually work) and the ability for internet forums to argue 6 ways to Sunday based purely on what they think should be, and to claim each way is clearly, with no uncertainty, what the words actually say.

Stephen E

Ultimately, it is up to the GM. If he will let it fly in his game, then it works. It wouldn't in any game I ran, but then, I tend to be restrictive on the types of cheese available to my players.

Simanos
2009-01-12, 09:28 PM
The problem is setting the wizard levels.

I think a little more information is necessary

CG Human
Deity: Pelor
Str 10 Dex 5 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 18 Cha 11

Any recommended familiars, schools for being a wizard, or should I take a different class for arcane spells?

Did you roll these stats? How? Poor DEX...

I would stay full Cleric with your stats, but then I don't like going out of Core/SRD...

Assassin89
2009-01-12, 09:44 PM
Did you roll these stats? How? Poor DEX...

I would stay full Cleric with your stats, but then I don't like going out of Core/SRD...
I rolled the stats myself
Rolled 4d6s and dropped the lowest die. I originally rolled 18,12,11,10,5,6, but the DM was willing to change one my int score because I would not get any skill points otherwise since I put the 6 into intelligence since the priority of stats was Wis>Con>Cha. This makes me want to get a few wishes in order to get inherent bonuses in int.

Aquillion
2009-01-12, 11:50 PM
Close. You can cast one 1nd level spell, then refill it. Since you're still only casting one 2nd level spell, you still don't qualify. Not to mention that a 2nd level Pearl of Power is well out of a 1st level character's price range.

Ultimately, it is up to the GM. If he will let it fly in his game, then it works. It wouldn't in any game I ran, but then, I tend to be restrictive on the types of cheese available to my players.Well, I think most DMs would houserule it out, unless it's being used in an otherwise underpowered build relative to the rest of the party (trading one level and a feat for an additional progression of nearly-full casting is a bit much.)

But the question is whether it works per RAW, and I don't think your argument is very strong there. It lets you cast any 2nd level spell you want; you just can't cast them all in the same day. But nothing in the class description specifies that it has to be in the same day. Therefore, you can cast second-level spells, and per RAW qualify for Mystic Theurge. Yes, it's obviously not RAI, and many DMs will common-sense houserule it out. But it works by the way the rules are written; you don't need to try and justify a common-sense houserule like that.

By your logic, a fifth-level wizard without the stats to get a level 3 bonus spell couldn't qualify for classes that require the ability to cast third level spells. That is silly; the ability to cast third-level spells is used all over the place as the 'must be level five' requirement for casters, and there are massive numbers of example characters who use just that entry that would likely be invalid under your interpretation of the rules. For that matter, for people without the stats for a level 3 arcane bonus spell, your interpretation would mean that Mystic Theurge requires something like Cleric 3 / Wizard 4. Is that really what you meant to do?

Stephen_E
2009-01-13, 12:06 AM
:
Originally Posted by Stephen_E
As has been pointed out there is no requirement that you be able to cast multiple 2nd lev spells per day, and even if there was you could just grab a 2nd lev Pearl of Power and presto you can cast 2 2nd lev spells in one day.



Close. You can cast one 1nd level spell, then refill it. Since you're still only casting one 2nd level spell, you still don't qualify. Not to mention that a 2nd level Pearl of Power is well out of a 1st level character's price range.



At 4th lev (1st lev Wiz/3rd lev Cleric) going on to 5th, you can afford the 4,000gp for a 2nd lev Pearl of Power, thus allowing the casting of two 2nd lev arcane spells per day. Wealth by lev - 4th = 5,400, 5th = 9,000.

As you say, whether it would be allowed is always upto the GM, but then so are Prestige Classes.

Stephen E

Curmudgeon
2009-01-13, 01:41 AM
Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell.
...
When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above. The problem with Precocious Apprentice is that the loss of benefits isn't exclusive to any particular school of magic. As soon as you become able to cast any 2nd level spell, you lose the single spell that Precocious Apprentice provides.
Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells. Since Mystic Theurge requires you to be able to cast 2nd level spells from both classes, Precocious Apprentice can't help you qualify, as it stops working as soon as you can normally cast any 2nd level spell from any class.

Stephen_E
2009-01-13, 01:55 AM
:
Originally Posted by Precocious Apprentice
Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell.
...
When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above.



The problem with Precocious Apprentice is that the loss of benefits isn't exclusive to any particular school of magic. As soon as you become able to cast any 2nd level spell, you lose the single spell that Precocious Apprentice provides.

As I said, a poorly worded feat. Thus tempting people to insert what ever words they wish to have it make sense and simultaneously say what they want it to say. As you've done below.

I'l also note if you read the core descriptions of Wizards and Clerics with the same approach you can also claim a lot of weird things.


:
Originally Posted by Mystic Theurge Requirements
Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.


Since Mystic Theurge requires you to be able to cast 2nd level spells from both classes, Precocious Apprentice can't help you qualify, as it stops working as soon as you can normally cast any 2nd level spell from any class.

And here we have the classic example of a person adding some words, any's in this case, to the feat description to justify a particular interpretation as been clear and obvious.

I could insert different words to "clarify" and show "indisputably" that it works, but in truth all I'd be doing is making my interpretation of a very poorly worded feat, just as Curmudgeon has. Sure I could give a very good justification for the words I add, as I'm sure Curmudgeon can, but it's still adding words.

Stephen E

Curmudgeon
2009-01-13, 03:15 AM
And here we have the classic example of a person adding some words, any's in this case, to the feat description to justify a particular interpretation as been clear and obvious. I quoted exactly what the feat says:
When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit and added nothing to it. The emphasis ("any") was not added to the feat description at all.

When you become able to cast 2nd level spells, you lose the benefit of Precocious Apprentice, exactly as stated in the feat description. If you use Precocious Apprentice to bootstrap a divine spell, you lose that benefit when you become able to cast 2nd level arcane spells normally. If you use Precocious Apprentice to bootstrap an arcane spell, you lose that benefit when you become able to cast 2nd level divine spells normally. Using Precocious Apprentice, you cannot satisfy the requirement of Mystic Theurge to be able to cast both 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells.

Aquillion
2009-01-13, 03:47 AM
I quoted exactly what the feat says: and added nothing to it. The emphasis ("any") was not added to the feat description at all.

When you become able to cast 2nd level spells, you lose the benefit of Precocious Apprentice, exactly as stated in the feat description. If you use Precocious Apprentice to bootstrap a divine spell, you lose that benefit when you become able to cast 2nd level arcane spells normally. If you use Precocious Apprentice to bootstrap an arcane spell, you lose that benefit when you become able to cast 2nd level divine spells normally. Using Precocious Apprentice, you cannot satisfy the requirement of Mystic Theurge to be able to cast both 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells.Aha! But actually, if you read the exact wording, this can be turned around to our benefit again. Behold:


When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would.
So. We take Sorcerer 1, and Precocious Apprentice. We then take three levels of Cleric. Precocious Apprentice's old benefit vanishes; it now grants us an extra second-level slot.

Wait, problem. It doesn't tell us what class this second-level slot is given to us in. That is itself problematic, isn't it? If it gives it to us in our capacity as a spontaneous arcane caster, we qualify for MT. Well, what do you know? It says we can use it to spontaneously cast 2nd-level or lower spells. That would seem to settle that; it goes into our Sorcerer spell slots, and we can now cast 2nd-level or lower spells 'as we normally would'; meaning it's unrestricted and fully qualifies us for MT.

Stephen_E
2009-01-13, 05:54 AM
I quoted exactly what the feat says: and added nothing to it. The emphasis ("any") was not added to the feat description at all.

No, it was added to your restating of of the feat.


When you become able to cast 2nd level spells, you lose the benefit of Precocious Apprentice, exactly as stated in the feat description. If you use Precocious Apprentice to bootstrap a divine spell, you lose that benefit when you become able to cast 2nd level arcane spells normally. If you use Precocious Apprentice to bootstrap an arcane spell, you lose that benefit when you become able to cast 2nd level divine spells normally. Using Precocious Apprentice, you cannot satisfy the requirement of Mystic Theurge to be able to cast both 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells.

And again you restate the feat changing what is says to your interpretation of what is says.

It does NOT say - "Gain one 2nd lev arcane spell slot which can only be used to cast a particular spell until you can cast 2nd lev spells of any type (Arcane or Divine) at which point you lose this ability and gain an additional spell slot of the type you gained 2nd lev casting in, even if this is divine." and yet this is what you and others pesistently claim it says, and then pretend it's clear as day and no intepretation is been done.

What the feat say is that a 1st lev arcane caster gains the ability to cast a single 2nd lev spell once a day, spell slot type unspecified. It says if you gain the ability to cast 2nd lev spells, type unspecified, normally the feat changes to simply give you an additional 2nd lev spell slot for casting spells, type unspecified, as normal be they be prepared or spontaneous.

Note: "type unspecified" =/= "Arcane or Divine"
"type unspecified" = "type unspecified"

Yes, this is bad writing. Although it should be noted that in general DnD rules writing spell types are often left unspecified and left up to context to make it clear. The context here would make it likely that arcane is what is meant when type unspecified, BUT the rule doesn't say so, and doesn't use the word "arcane" in the feat description outside of prereqs - arcane caster level 1st with the additional note Special - You can take this feat only as a 1st lev character.

Stephen E

Simanos
2009-01-13, 08:45 AM
I rolled the stats myself
Rolled 4d6s and dropped the lowest die. I originally rolled 18,12,11,10,5,6, but the DM was willing to change one my int score because I would not get any skill points otherwise since I put the 6 into intelligence since the priority of stats was Wis>Con>Cha. This makes me want to get a few wishes in order to get inherent bonuses in int.
Crap. I think you need a hug...
/hug
So, can't you stay full Cleric? Why do you need to multiclass to Wizard?
Just stay Cleric, enjoy your armor and hitpoints and maybe get a nice Prestige Class.:smallcool:

Eldariel
2009-01-13, 08:58 AM
Those stats are pretty damn good from 4d6 (18s come up rarely enough, although your dumps are big time), but not for a Cleric/Wizard Theurge; Cleric is really just the kind of class to play with one insane stats and others being meh. Theurge needs two high stats, and really, more Con 'cause Theurge enjoys a d4 hit die and that with 12 Con is going to hurt you big time over the levels. So, it seems like your stats dictate "straight Cleric". If you were creating a new character, the option of using a different divine class that shares a casting stat with your arcane class (favored soul, archivist) could work, but as it stands...

JMobius
2009-01-13, 11:01 AM
Aren't you supposed to reroll anything under 8?

Assassin89
2009-01-13, 04:38 PM
Aren't you supposed to reroll anything under 8?

No because I roll 4d6 six times to create stats and rolls stats twice. This make the game less of a hassle for the DM. I could always find ways to get inherent bonuses

Stephen_E
2009-01-13, 04:41 PM
Those stats are pretty damn good from 4d6 (18s come up rarely enough, although your dumps are big time), ...

Actually No, they're lousy. That's +5 in bonuses and -5 in penalties. For a total of +0. Average is around +4 - +5 total.
Sure a 18 is rare, but it still sucks.


Aren't you supposed to reroll anything under 8?

No. You are susposed to reroll if none of your scores are above 13 OR the total bonuses and penalties is 0 or lower.

So yes, he should've gotten to reroll his stats, but not for the reason you mention.

Assassin 99 You could try pointing out this to your GM (page 8 PHB under "Rerolling" 1st column) and see if he'll allow you to reroll now. You'd probably lose the 18, but your overall stats are almost certain to improve, making Mystic Theurge viable. If asked nicely he may even allow you to choose which set to use after rolling, given that you've been playing a set that should've been rerolled in the 1st place.

Stephen E

Assassin89
2009-01-13, 04:45 PM
Assassin 99 You could try pointing out this to your GM (page 8 PHB under "Rerolling" 1st column) and see if he'll allow you to reroll now. You'd probably lose the 18, but your overall stats are almost certain to improve, making Mystic Theurge viable. If asked nicely he may even allow you to choose which set to use after rolling, given that you've been playing a set that should've been rerolled in the 1st place.

Stephen E

I do not think that is possible because the adventure my character is in has already started and therefore I cannot change his stats.

Simanos
2009-01-14, 03:03 PM
Those stats are pretty damn good from 4d6 (18s come up rarely enough, although your dumps are big time), but not for a Cleric/Wizard Theurge; Cleric is really just the kind of class to play with one insane stats and others being meh. Theurge needs two high stats, and really, more Con 'cause Theurge enjoys a d4 hit die and that with 12 Con is going to hurt you big time over the levels. So, it seems like your stats dictate "straight Cleric". If you were creating a new character, the option of using a different divine class that shares a casting stat with your arcane class (favored soul, archivist) could work, but as it stands...
Those stats have an average of 10 and 1/3. Even with 3d6 the average is 10 and 1/2. I know that what I just said isn't correct mathematically, but it's pretty indicative for what 4d6 (drop the lowest) would mean and I'm not about to do the really heavy math to compute it correctly for this minor issue.
I welcome anyone who does, but do it correctly.
Other than that you hit the nail on the head with your "stay Cleric" analysis. :smallcool:

ravenkith
2009-01-14, 03:35 PM
I'd seriously consider aborting this character.

Have him run out and get killed.

At least, if you absolutely HAVE to do Mystic Theurge.

I think eldritch disciple is an excellent suggestion, and cleric/psiwarrior even better still.

But if you ARE going to go Mystic Theurge, with the build you have, speccing out in conjuration is a must.

You are going to find out really, really quickly that all the bad guys WILL make your saves, and bypassing spell resistance is going to be a pain in the patoot.

This will affect BOTH your wizard and cleric sides. Flamestrike, Blade Barrier, Fireball, Dominate...all of those are going to get hurt, pretty bad.

Take the line of Orb spells, and do summons and take practiced spellcaster to compensate for level loss.

DO NOT SACK ENCHANTMENT OR ILLUSION. Dump necro and evocation instead, as those are the schools that allow the most saves. Focus on buffing your buddies, and or crowd controllers such as wall spells.

Take a look at war weaver (heroes of battle?) and see if you can work some in. Could be good. 2 or 3 levels will allow you to cast one spell and have it affect multiple allies simultaneously.

OTOH, this will negatively impact your casting levels further...but 3 behind or 5 behind, either way you aren't going to have a lot of failed saves regardless <shrug>.

Aquillion
2009-01-14, 04:04 PM
I do not think that is possible because the adventure my character is in has already started and therefore I cannot change his stats.I think it might be worth talking to your DM, though. I mean, you want to enter a fairly underpowered PRC... it's not like you're asking for this so you can be UbertwinkedMcAwesome. Your DM might have other ideas for the basic theme you want to try, too.

A much simpler option: Your DM might give you a valuable +int item as loot if he knows about your problem. Some DMs do things like that; others don't.

Assassin89
2009-01-14, 05:58 PM
One of the ideas my DM has is the feat practiced spellcaster. There is also another wizard in the setting, who is a conjurer since he uses the gate spell.

monty
2009-01-14, 06:05 PM
One of the ideas my DM has is the feat practiced spellcaster. There is also another wizard in the setting, who is a conjurer since he uses the gate spell.

That won't help you too much, though, since it only increases caster level, not spells per day.

Aquillion
2009-01-14, 06:49 PM
Well, it is kinda important for a MT, since a low CL does cause other problems. The MT's main advantage is having lots of low-level spells; at least having a high CL makes them a bit more effective (longer durations, more magic missiles, etc.)

But it doesn't solve your main problem, yeah. If you want to go MT, you need to do something about that 12 int or 11 cha. At the very least, you'll need to buy/find a good Headband of Intellect and avoid focusing on mage spells that allow a DC. A +6 headband of intellect is 36,000 gp. With that, you'll at least be able to cast up to level 8 wizard spells.

EDIT: Oh, but if you're going to use a Wish or a Tome of Clear Thought (note that they do not stack, and do not stack with each other, and if you later get a better version it replaces the old one instead of adding to it), you should do that first, since those grant an inherent bonus that will give you more skill points on level up. The optimal thing would be to go straight for a +5 tome, for the above reasons... but that costs a whopping 137,500 gp.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-14, 10:44 PM
Oh, but if you're going to use a Wish or a Tome of Clear Thought (note that they do not stack, and do not stack with each other, and if you later get a better version it replaces the old one instead of adding to it) Also note that Miracle is more free-form, and does not have the Wish requirement of back-to-back casting to boost ability scores. Instead it's pretty free-form, because you're really asking your deity (read: DM) for the boost. You can even find out in advance if this will work, with an Augury spell; just ask the deity (again: DM) if later Miracle spells can give you a further ability increase.