(3.5) 1st Level damage challenge

[Llama231]

What is the most damage that a first level character could deal out on average, in one round, without preparation, using only core, using these numbers fo abilities?

18,16,14,12,10,8

...And 100 g.p.

The best that i know:
Half-Orc Fighter: Str 20(+5), B.A.B.+1
Greatsword
Power Attack

2d6+7

Only about 13.5.

Any suggestions?

Edit: 1 flaw is allowed.

[monty]

Edit: Never mind. You changed the numbers.

[Llama231]

Uberninja'd.
I edited that in right after you posted.

[Siosilvar]

Edit: Never mind. You changed the numbers.

But he still forgot the 2 from Power Attack.
Half-Orc Barbarian
Greatsword = 2d6
Strength (including Rage) = +7 * 1.5 = +10
Power Attack for 1 = +2

=2d6+12

=19 average damage

EDIT: Without preparation?

Greatsword = 2d6
Strength = +5 * 1.5 = +7
Power Attack for 1 = +2

=2d6+9

=16 average damage

EDIT2: This is, of course, assuming you hit. Which, with a +7 or +5 to hit, isn't that hard.

EDIT3: Add 1 if you can get monster races (namely, Orc.)

[Blood_Lord]

Why make it core only. Pretty much removes all possible optimization.

I mean, I can do infinity at level 1 with flaws, not counting pun-pun, but meh. You could still leave it somewhat open to Precocious Apprentice Wizards.

[Lappy9000]

Why make it core only? Pretty much removes all possible optimization.

I mean, I can do infinity at level 1 with flaws, not counting pun-pun, but meh. You could still leave it somewhat open to Precocious Apprentice Wizards.

Keeping it in with core is more of a challenge, I suppose. And how the crud do you make Pun-Pun at level 1?

[Seffbasilisk]

Go full Orc for another +2 to STR, switch to a greataxe for the x3 crit (base damage doesn't change much), and take a flaw to make it a Heirloom (+2 attack and damage instead of bonus feat).

That's another +5 to damage.

[Siosilvar]

...take a flaw to make it a Heirloom (+2 attack and damage instead of bonus feat).
Core only.

[Llama231]

But he still forgot the 2 from Power Attack.
Half-Orc Barbarian
Greatsword = 2d6
Strength (including Rage) = +7 * 1.5 = +10
Power Attack for 1 = +2

=2d6+12

=19 average damage


EDIT: Without preparation?

Greatsword = 2d6
Strength = +5 * 1.5 = +7
Power Attack for 1 = +2

=2d6+9

=13 average damage

O.O
I am not very good with how power attack works...
This seems good.
Let me refrase the preparation thing:
I meant as in doing some pun-pun-like thing, batman-wizard preparation, or buffing over years or something, raging is not what I meant.

[RTGoodman]

Keeping it in with core is more of a challenge, I suppose. And how the crud do you make Pun-Pun at level 1?

Easy. Make a DC 25 (I think) Knowledge (The Planes) check to know about how Pazuzu loves granting wishes to hapless folk (and especially paladins), say his name three times to summon him, and get your wish. Then it just involves using that wish to somehow gate in a djinn efreet (candle of invocation cheese?) and using your three new wishes to go through with the traditional Pun-Pun stuff. It's not Core at all though, since you need Pazuzu (FC 1) and the Sarrukh (Serpent Kingdoms).


Anyway, the above is about as good as it gets, but you could make the character a full orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/Orc.htm). That'll net you a starting 22 Strength, which increases to 26 Str with rage.

That's a +8 to hit (using PA), and you deal 2d6+14 damage with a greatsword, for an average of 21 damage (if I did my math right).

[Llama231]

Go full Orc for another +2 to STR, switch to a greataxe for the x3 crit (base damage doesn't change much), and take a flaw to make it a Heirloom (+2 attack and damage instead of bonus feat).

That's another +5 to damage.

How will higher critical help? Or do you just mean that the greataxe does more average damage?

Also, full orc is O.k., as it is technically core . (Unless it has L.A.).

Core templates without L.A. are O.K. too.

This is highest average damage possible at level 1, fluff does not really matter.

[Eldariel]

Hm, flanking Orc Rogue (Str 22, Dex 15+) with TWF as his feat could deal, assuming nothing stupid like wielding unproficient weapons (since hit is assumed), 1d8+1d6+2d6+9 damage for a total of 24. Of course, that assumes using a Morningstar or a Heavy Mace over a rational mainhand weapon; with your standard Rapier, it'd be only 23.

[Innis Cabal]

Easy. Make a DC 25 (I think) Knowledge (The Planes) check to know about how Pazuzu loves granting wishes to hapless folk (and especially paladins), say his name three times to summon him, and get your wish. Then it just involves using that wish to somehow gate in a djinn (candle of invocation cheese?) and using your three new wishes to go through with the traditional Pun-Pun stuff. It's not Core at all though, since you need Pazuzu (FC 1) and the Sarrukh (Serpent Kingdoms).


Anyway, the above is about as good as it gets, but you could make the character a full orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/Orc.htm). That'll net you a starting 22 Strength, which increases to 26 Str with rage.

That's a +8 to hit (using PA), and you deal 2d6+14 damage with a greatsword, for an average of 21 damage (if I did my math right).

To start, its an Efreet. Secondly, the DM is well within his right to say "We don't have a Pazuzu in this game", or simply "No". Thus making that whole build impossible.

[Eldariel]

To start, its an Efreet. Secondly, the DM is well within his right to say "We don't have a Pazuzu in this game", or simply "No". Thus making that whole build impossible.

What's your point?

[RTGoodman]

To start, its an Efreet.

Ah, right. Close enough.


Secondly, the DM is well within his right to say "We don't have a Pazuzu in this game", or simply "No". Thus making that whole build impossible.

I'm not suggesting using it, I just know that's the current "earliest available" version of Pun-Pun from over at Wizards. Either way, it's THEORETICAL OPTIMIZATION; there's no DM, and it's not meant to be used in a game - it's just a thought experiment.


@Eldarial: Can you give a breakdown of the damage? I assume the 1d8 is a morningstar or something, the 1d6 Sneak Attack, and 9 damage from Str on your attacks, but I don't know where you're getting the 2d6 from. I don't think there's a 2d6 one-handed Medium weapon in Core.

[tyckspoon]

Let's try the mounted combat route: Human Fighter. All three feats go to getting to Spirited Charge. A Lance costs him 10 GP, leaving him 90 to secure a mount. Which he can't do, because for some reason a first-level character isn't meant to afford a combat-capable horse. That's ok, the Fighter has Handle Animal on his skill list, he can buy a light horse and train it for combat himself (this may or may not be considered 'preparation'- it's not a buff round or asking anybody else to improve your damage for you. I'd call it gear, meself.)

18 goes in Strength, of course. 2-handing the lance on a charge gets:
(1d8 +1.5Str) x3 hitting at +7 (1 BAB 2 Charge 4 Strength), or 3d8 + 18 if you think it ought to all be rolled out instead. Min 19, max 42, average 31.5. If Flaws are allowed, add Power Attack for another +6.

Orc remains better on normal attacks thanks to a higher static strength modifier, but I'm pretty sure Spirited Charge provides the highest damage doable without getting into seriously ripe cheese. Of course, it could be better if one of the Barbarian variants out there grants a free feat or just one of Spirited Charge's prereqs.

[JaxGaret]

I think an Orc Cleric with the War and Destruction domains might outdo the Barbarian for this particular challenge, if you take into account chance to hit.

EDIT: Yeah, a mounted attacker would be the best, like tyckspoon said.

[Eldariel]

Damage:
1d8 = Morningstar Damage
1d6 = Shortsword Damage
1d6 = Morningstar SA Damage
1d6 = Shortsword SA Damage
6 = Morningstar Str Damage
3 = Shortsword Str Damage

That's all moot though since it's nowhere near the numbers you can get with a Mounted Charge.

[RTGoodman]

1d6 = Morningstar SA Damage
1d6 = Shortsword SA Damage

Ah, right - I'm stucking the 4E mentality of Sneak Attack being once per round.

Either way, though, I think tyckspoon's got us - stupid humans and their horses. :smallsigh::smalltongue: Of course, once you get that much damage at first level, it's really sort of overkill - it's definitely enough to take out most CR 1-2 foes, and even some CR 3-4 foes.

[Eldariel]

Ah, right - I'm stucking the 4E mentality of Sneak Attack being once per round.

Either way, though, I think tyckspoon's got us - stupid humans and their horses. :smallsigh::smalltongue: Of course, once you get that much damage at first level, it's really sort of overkill - it's definitely enough to take out most CR 1-2 foes, and even some CR 3-4 foes.

Same could be said for just your average Orc Barbarian. I certainly am concerned whenever we face any Orcs on level 1-3; I know they'll probably hit and one hit will probably kill. And the bastards even have non-trivial Will-saves thanks to Rage. Luckily they tend to have trouble keeping their footing under Grease though. And one of my arena characters was a level 1 Warforged Bear-Totem Barbarian with whoppin' 19 HP (and DR 2/Adamantine thanks to Adamantine Body...oh, and AC 19) - 12 class + 4 Con + 3 the bonus Toughness - on level 1 though; he's still undefeated :)

[Blood_Lord]

Keeping it in with core is more of a challenge, I suppose. And how the crud do you make Pun-Pun at level 1?

My point is that Core only removes all challenge, because it seriously just becomes Mounted Charge or Raging Barbarian (or Rogue TWFing apparently, but that has a much lower to hit.)

There are only 3-4 actual possibilities in Core. So it is no challenge to win the most damage, you just have to pick one.

(Also, mounts break starting wealth, for all that matters.)

Secondly, while you can get Pun-Pun at level 1, my assertion is that I can create a character with infinity damage who is not Pun-Pun, and doesn't use Pazuzu, or any items at all even wished ones. That was my assertion. Not that I could create Pun-Pun, since that's something everyone can do.

[Curmudgeon]

(1d8 +1.5Str) x3 hitting at +7 (1 BAB 2 Charge 4 Strength), or 3d8 + 18 if you think it ought to all be rolled out instead This is core rules, so you must "roll it out"; there's no other option.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together.

[RTGoodman]

Secondly, while you can get Pun-Pun at level 1, my assertion is that I can create a character with infinity damage who is not Pun-Pun, and doesn't use Pazuzu, or any items at all even wished ones. That was my assertion. Not that I could create Pun-Pun, since that's something everyone can do.

While it's not within the thread rules (and, well, the thread's probably over after tyckspoon's mounted charger build), but I'm interested in your 1st-level infinite damage build. I've never heard of such a thing; I think the lowest-level infinite damage build is the 1d2 Crusader, and that's a minimum ECL 14 (Cleric 1/Crusader 13).

[Eldariel]

This is core rules, so you must "roll it out"; there's no other option.

That's not a critical though, just Spirited Charge multipliers.

[Llama231]

Let's try the mounted combat route: Human Fighter. All three feats go to getting to Spirited Charge. A Lance costs him 10 GP, leaving him 90 to secure a mount. Which he can't do, because for some reason a first-level character isn't meant to afford a combat-capable horse. That's ok, the Fighter has Handle Animal on his skill list, he can buy a light horse and train it for combat himself (this may or may not be considered 'preparation'- it's not a buff round or asking anybody else to improve your damage for you. I'd call it gear, meself.)

18 goes in Strength, of course. 2-handing the lance on a charge gets:
(1d8 +1.5Str) x3 hitting at +7 (1 BAB 2 Charge 4 Strength), or 3d8 + 18 if you think it ought to all be rolled out instead. Min 19, max 42, average 31.5. If Flaws are allowed, add Power Attack for another +6.

Orc remains better on normal attacks thanks to a higher static strength modifier, but I'm pretty sure Spirited Charge provides the highest damage doable without getting into seriously ripe cheese. Of course, it could be better if one of the Barbarian variants out there grants a free feat or just one of Spirited Charge's prereqs.


1 flaw is allowed.

Edit: Are flaws even core?

[Keld Denar]

That done, lets step out of core.

Human Wizard 1
Precocious Apprentice
Sudden Enlarge Spell
18 str
16 int
rest doesn't matter

Now, you need a 10' wide line of enemies 120' long. Assuming simple kobolds, that would result in 240 kobolds standing in front of you.

Now, cast a Sudden Enlarged Whirling Blade making a single attack against all foes in a 10' wide path out to 120' Assuming a Greatsword (no one ever said you had to be proficient), you'd do an average of 2d6+6 damage wielding it with both hands with the 18 in str. Thats 13 damage average per kobold, and with 240 kobalds to scythe down, you'd wind up doing 3120 damage in a single round.

Practical? No, but that wasn't the point of the exercise...

Do I win the non-core part?

[Llama231]

That done, lets step out of core.

Human Wizard 1
Precocious Apprentice
Sudden Enlarge Spell
18 str
16 int
rest doesn't matter

Now, you need a 10' wide line of enemies 120' long. Assuming simple kobolds, that would result in 240 kobolds standing in front of you.

Now, cast a Sudden Enlarged Whirling Blade making a single attack against all foes in a 10' wide path out to 120' Assuming a Greatsword (no one ever said you had to be proficient), you'd do an average of 2d6+6 damage wielding it with both hands with the 18 in str. Thats 13 damage average per kobold, and with 240 kobalds to scythe down, you'd wind up doing 3120 damage in a single round.

Practical? No, but that wasn't the point of the exercise...

Do I win the non-core part?


Can you explain this some more, i do not understand it.

[Blood_Lord]

First, pick any LA +0 race with a fly speed. Anthro Raven or Bat for example. Others exist I'm sure.

Class level: Dragonfire Adept.

Feats: Flyby Attack
Flyby Breath from Dragonlance Campaign Setting, bought with flaw.

Flyby Breath allows you to make your breath attack as a free action as long as you only move. But no limit about minimum distance or uses per round, because it was designed for regular dragons with a recharge.

So now, you fly 40ft (double move) and anywhere within 30ft of any point in your flight path takes infinityd6 damage of fire.

Completely negated by FR 10, but what you gonna do at level 1.

[Llama231]

First, pick any LA +0 race with a fly speed. Anthro Raven or Bat for example. Others exist I'm sure.

Class level: Dragonfire Adept.

Feats: Flyby Attack
Flyby Breath from Dragonlance Campaign Setting, bought with flaw.

Flyby Breath allows you to make your breath attack as a free action as long as you only move. But no limit about minimum distance or uses per round, because it was designed for regular dragons with a recharge.

So now, you fly 40ft (double move) and anywhere within 30ft of any point in your flight path takes infinityd6 damage of fire.

Completely negated by FR 10, but what you gonna do at level 1.


Only core.

[Tengu_temp]

Are psionics core? They are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/).

[monty]

Only core.

I thought we changed our minds after the mounted build ended that.

[Blood_Lord]

Only core.

I already told you your core only stipulation is stupid and I'm not competing in your worthless challenge. If you read the actual thread, you'd see that I am replying to the people expressing curiosity about obtaining infinite damage at level 1.


I thought we changed our minds after the mounted build ended that.

{Scrubbed}

[RTGoodman]

Only core.

Ah, yeah, I was just asking about his non-Core infinite damage build. Just a little aside.


Can you explain this some more, i do not understand it.

It's a non-Core build, but it uses Precocious Apprentice (a feat from Complete Arcane that gives you a 2nd-level spell at 1st level, but with a CL check to cast it, IIRC) to gain the whirling blade spell (Spell Compenium), which'll let you chuck a blade at everything in the 120-foot line (using Sudden Enlarge to apply Enlarge Spell for free).


As far as Core builds, we've probably exhausted all the real options. Mounted Charger and Orc Barbarian (and maybe certain TWF Sneak Attackers) are about as high as you can get for 1st-level Core.


EDIT: Gah, silly ninjas.

[JaxGaret]

Are psionics core? They are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/).

SRD and core are two different things.

The SRD includes non-core things.

[JaxGaret]

{Scrubbed} Core is already decided, because there are seriously only 3 options.

Cleric with War and Destruction domains rivals the Barb, so there's 4 options.

[Keld Denar]

Can you explain this some more, i do not understand it.

Whirling Blade is a spell in the Spell Compendium. It produces a line effect 10' wide and normally 60' long. You attack every target you wish in that effect one time. Its a 2nd level spell. Precosious Apprentice is a feat from one of the sidebars in Complete Arcane, and allows a 1st level wizard to memorize and cast a single 2nd level spell per day, with a chance for failure. Sudden Enlarge is a Sudden MM feat from Complete Arcane that applies Enlarge Spell metamagic to a spell being cast without increasing its level once per day.

Combine it all together, and your first level wizard can memorize a single 2nd level spell, so he picks Whirling Blade. Next, he lines up kobolds in the manner I specified, a 10' x 120' rectangle starting adjacent to him and continuing in a straight line away. The wizard then casts Whirling Blade, applying Sudden Enlarge to it, allowing him to make attacks with the focus weapon (Greatsword) as if he were making melee attacks, against each of the 240 kobolds in line. Since it counts as a melee attack, he could be considered to be holding the sword in both hands, to get the 1.5x str bonus for doing it. Therefore, he deals 2d6 + (4 x 1.5) = average 13 per hit, hitting 240 times.

Possible in a real game? No, since he only has a +0 to hit (+4 str, -4 proficiency, +0 BAB) and how would you get 240 kobolds to line up just right is beyond me, but hey, that guideline wasn't spelled out.

And before you say "its not core" note that I specified in the first sentance. We've already established that Spiritual Charge is king, I'm just expanding it for intellectual purposes.

[Blood_Lord]

Cleric with War and Destruction domains rivals the Barb, so there's 4 options.

I don't think they really do. Even assuming Magic Weapon, Divine Favor and smite, still only +3 which doesn't match the Barbarians +3 damage from rage, +2 from PA.

Remember, this is just damage, no one cares about AB, so the War domain doesn't even do anything.

EDIT: Whirling Blade uses Int instead of Str.

[Curmudgeon]

That's not a critical though, just Spirited Charge multipliers. Doesn't matter. The rules always require multiple rolling.
Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's an Orc Cleric 1 build with the Strength domain and Skill Focus: Jump who can cast Enlarge Person, making himself plus his gear total at least 4,000 pounds, and always succeed in a Jump check with his remaining move-action to high-jump and land on up to four opponents for 20d6 "falling object" damage (DMG p303). It's cheese and a rules exploit, but it is core-only and can deal an average of 70 damage (to each of four creatures) in a single round without pre-buffs. If Psionics is allowed a Psychic Warrior 1 wtih Expansion and Up The Walls can do it without any ranks in Jump.

[Keld Denar]

EDIT: Whirling Blade uses Int instead of Str.

MAY use int or cha in place of str. MAY. I opt not to, and instead claim 1.5x str damage for 2handing my greatsword.

With a flaw, you could take Sudden Empower as well, allowing you to do about 4.5k damage...that would be silly, but oh so fun!

[Rabble]

Well I have two ideas which should beat 31.5 damage in a round.

The first one is a bit crazy so I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted any of the rules, but with a human monk with the 18 in str, two weapon fighting, point blank shot, and rapid shot wielding a pair of large sais.

d6 (unarmed strike) + d6 (throw first sai) + d6 (strike with second sai) + d6 (throw second sai) + 16 (4*str)+ 2(point blank shot for the sais) = 32 on average. Granted the -2 to hit on the 4 strikes after modifiers hurts.

The third idea is simply an orc druid with a heavy horse as an animal companion and point blank shot and rapid shot as his two feats. The animal companion does a full attack for 2d6 + 2 and the druid throws a pair of clubs with shillelagh cast on them. The total damage should be 2d6 + 2 + 4d6 + 2 + 2 + 12 = 39 damage on average. If shillelagh doesn't work on thrown clubs, the druid can instead wield a quarterstaff and get two weapon fighting and deal 2 less damage.

[Heliomance]

Doesn't matter. The rules always require multiple rolling.

Huh, you learn something new every day. I've never played by that rule, and I don't know anyone who does either.

[Adumbration]

Same could be said for just your average Orc Barbarian. I certainly am concerned whenever we face any Orcs on level 1-3; I know they'll probably hit and one hit will probably kill. And the bastards even have non-trivial Will-saves thanks to Rage. Luckily they tend to have trouble keeping their footing under Grease though. And one of my arena characters was a level 1 Warforged Bear-Totem Barbarian with whoppin' 19 HP (and DR 2/Adamantine thanks to Adamantine Body...oh, and AC 19) - 12 class + 4 Con + 3 the bonus Toughness - on level 1 though; he's still undefeated :)

I suggest you take it to the Arena Tournaments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70647) here in the forums. There you will face the true masters of level one optimisation.

My personal record is with my Shifter barbarian who cleaved his way through the round 45. Ah, the joys of AC 21, two attacks a round, and 75 ft base speed. There were a few flaws in that design - I neglected to take Travel Devotion instead of Dash - but now that I've entered 2nd level, I've retrained.

[Llama231]

Well, I have gotten the answer that I was looking for, so I am O.K. with however this thread goes, core or not. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks all.

[Flickerdart]

SRD and core are two different things.

The SRD includes non-core things.
However, psionics are Core. The SRD contains two things: Core and Unearthed Arcana.

[Llama231]

I already told you your core only stipulation is stupid and I'm not competing in your worthless challenge. If you read the actual thread, you'd see that I am replying to the people expressing curiosity about obtaining infinite damage at level 1.

Sorry about that, I was not paying attention.


{Scrubbed} Core is already decided, because there are seriously only 3 options.

I understand that now, and those 3 options were what I was looking for.

[Sir Giacomo]

Well I have two ideas which should beat 31.5 damage in a round.

The first one is a bit crazy so I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted any of the rules, but with a human monk with the 18 in str, two weapon fighting, point blank shot, and rapid shot wielding a pair of large sais.

d6 (unarmed strike) + d6 (throw first sai) + d6 (strike with second sai) + d6 (throw second sai) + 16 (4*str)+ 2(point blank shot for the sais) = 32 on average. Granted the -2 to hit on the 4 strikes after modifiers hurts.

The third idea is simply an orc druid with a heavy horse as an animal companion and point blank shot and rapid shot as his two feats. The animal companion does a full attack for 2d6 + 2 and the druid throws a pair of clubs with shillelagh cast on them. The total damage should be 2d6 + 2 + 4d6 + 2 + 2 + 12 = 39 damage on average. If shillelagh doesn't work on thrown clubs, the druid can instead wield a quarterstaff and get two weapon fighting and deal 2 less damage.

I think building on your ideas the core damage output can get cranked up a bit more...:smallsmile: (your human monk has one feat too many, btw)

With 29 pt buy, you could get an orc monk (STR 22, DEX 17) and grab the two-weapon feat.
Then, the 100gp equipment would be a quarterstaff, an enlarge potion and a shillelagh oil.
With flurry of blows (quarterstaff is a monk weapon), plus an off-hand unarmed strike you have a total of three attacks in level 1.

Now enhance the oil to a shillelagh staff, then drink the enlarge potion.
Voila - a 3d6+1 quarterstaff.
Add STR on top, and you have +3/+3/+2 attacks for a total of 6d6+16+1d8+7 damage = 48 avg damage.

Not that bad for a 1st level character. And a new core record in this thread :smallsmile:. But I guess somehow it may be kicked higher....

- Giacomo

[monty]

Then, the 100gp equipment would be a quarterstaff, an enlarge potion and a shillelagh oil.

Except that a potion of Enlarge Person costs 250 gp...

[Eldariel]

I think building on your ideas the core damage output can get cranked up a bit more...:smallsmile: (your human monk has one feat too many, btw)

The problem is that there was a stipulation against on-going magic effects ("preparation"). That's why no Enlarge Persons, Magic Weapons, Divine Favors, Shillelaghs and company have been used in the thread.

[Flickerdart]

With magical preparation, assuming always hitting, I believe a prior thread had gotten the damage into the hundreds.

[JaxGaret]

However, psionics are Core.

Not this old argument. :smallsigh:


The SRD contains two things: Core and Unearthed Arcana.

The SRD contains parts of the PHB, DMG, MM, XPH, UA, and Deities and Demigods.

Which parts of those are "core" or not have been debated for years.

[Flickerdart]

Not this old argument. :smallsigh:



The SRD contains parts of the PHB, DMG, MM, XPH, UA, and Deities and Demigods.

Which parts of those are "core" or not have been debated for years.
You're forgetting the ELH. Which brings up a good point, since it's not even 3.5.

[Blood_Lord]

Not this old argument. :smallsigh:



The SRD contains parts of the PHB, DMG, MM, XPH, UA, and Deities and Demigods.

Which parts of those are "core" or not have been debated for years.

I believe his statement is based on the assertion that is part of Complete Psion (or whatever) that Psionics is core. I've heard it mentioned before, I'm not going to buy a book that's hated by most users of the subsystem that I don't even use just so I can argue about what is Core or not, but that's what I've heard.

[ericgrau]

Psionics are not core. SRD stuff that is not core includes not only unearthed arcana variant rules, but also epic rules, psionic rules and divine rules. Check this out: www.d20srd.org. Core is exactly PHB+DMG+MM. I'll bet you could find it on the WotC website somewhere too. But I'd like to focus on the challenge right now:

orc barbarian 1:
feats (3): power attack, exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword. The two-weapon fighting feat is optional, since we don't care about AB here.
str = 18+4 (race) + 4 (rage) =26 (+8)

damage in one round = (1d10 + 8 str + 1 PA) + (1d10 + 4 str + 1 PA) = 2d10 + 14 = 25 average damage. 27.5 average including crits (+10%).

Another option is to wield a single large bastard sword in two hands for 2d8 damage, averaging 23 damage (25.3 w/ crits). A large one handed weapon requires two hands and causes a -2 penalty to AB. That drops the total AB penalty from -7/-11 (-5 w/ TWF feat) to -3 and it does not require full attacks. Orcs also have the anime-hair prerequisite for wielding a 6 foot long weapon.

EDIT:
orc monk 1
feats: w/e (again, TWF optional)
str = 18 + 4 (race) = 22 (+6)
flurry two large-sized sianghams for a ridiculous AB penalty and (1d8+6)x3 = 31.5 average damage. Making a light weapon large (in the hands of a medium creature) turns it into a one handed weapon with a -2 penalty to AB. Normal sized weapons would yield 28.5 average damage.
/EDIT

Mounted, charging and with a lance we can get (1d8+12 str + 2 PA) x 2 = 2d8 + 26 = 35 average damage. 38.5 including crits (+10%). This requires the handle animal tactic to train a warhorse to save gold, which someone else mentioned.

[Sir Giacomo]

Except that a potion of Enlarge Person costs 250 gp...

I think that's a misprint - although I never saw it errata'ed anywhere...normally potions or stuff cost only more in case of expensive material components.

- Giacomo

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What is the most damage that a first level character could deal out on average, in one round, without preparation, using only core, using these numbers fo abilities?

18,16,14,12,10,8

...And 100 g.p.

The best that i know:
Half-Orc Fighter: Str 20(+5), B.A.B.+1
Greatsword
Power Attack

2d6+7

Only about 13.5.

Any suggestions?

Edit: 1 flaw is allowed.

Orc Barbarian. Rage adds +4 to Strength, which is a +3 to damage. You can grab Power Attack as your 1st level feat, and still have a Flaw if you wanted to grab another feat.

So, starting Strength of 22 (using the 18), with Rage nets me a Strength of 26. This is a net modifier of + 8, or a damage bonus of +12. Then Power Attack adds on another +2 Damage for a +14.

So total damage of 2d6+14. Not too shabby for level 1.


flurry two large-sized sianghams for a ridiculous AB penalty and (1d8+6)x3 = 31.5 average damage. Making a light weapon large (in the hands of a medium creature) turns it into a one handed weapon with a -2 penalty to AB. Normal sized weapons would yield 28.5 average damage. WRONG. This is 3.0 rules, not 3.5 rules which are Core. A Medium creature cannot wield a Large weapon, regardless of how big or small it is, without Monkey Grip. A Large Longsword is mechanically identical to a Medium Greatsword, except a Medium creature cannot wield the former at ALL, unless he has Monkey Grip.

[Tacoma]

Oil costs 1 SP per pint in a 1-pint flask. An empty flask costs 3 CP. Which means a pint of oil with no container costs 7 CP.

An empty barrel weighs 30 pounds but the SRD doesn't show a maximum volume. Let's say 42 gallons as that's traditional in the US. A barrel costs 2 GP. This means for every gallon a barrel holds, it weighs 0.714 pounds and costs 4.761 CP. A Tindertwig costs 1 GP.

With our Orc of 22 STR, he can carry 520 lb at maximum. A pint of lamp oil weighs approximately one pound, so the Orc carries a barrel plus oil that weighs a total of 520 pounds. Eight pints to the gallon.

(520 / (0.714 + 8) = 59.67 etc)

The Orc buys a 42 pound barrel that holds 472 pints of oil. This barrel costs 28 SP and the oil costs 47 SP. The tindertwig costs 1 GP. In total the attack costs 8 GP and 5 SP and a couple coppers so we can replicate it 11 times with the starting cash.

The "attack" involves carrying the barrel of oil with a floating lid in one hand and the Tindertwig in the other. We move up, light the oil as a Standard Action, then drop it (spilling it).

Oil causes 1d3 damage per round for two rounds, no save, no SR. The oil is poured into the enemy's square, which requires no attack roll, and flows outward to cover an area of one 5' square per pint spilled. But it flows through that one square before it goes anywhere else.

The oil slick is about 21 x 22 squares. If each square is filled by one enemy (there are two extra squares not included for the Orc and his original main target) then those 470 creatures each take 1 minimum, 3 maximum, 2 average damage per round for two rounds. That alone is 1920 average damage over two rounds. Your Orc also takes the damage, so add +4 to that. So the main target takes the fire damage on round 2 for his one square. So add +2.

Most of the damage is dealt to the primary target through whose square all the oil must flow. This 472 pints of flaming oil causes him 944 average damage on round 1. To the other creatures around, 940 points are dealt. To the Orc, 2 points.

However, realistically this Orc will get to hit only the main target and the one square hitting himself.

That said, this single attack has the following statistics:

One-Round Damage In Contrived Situation: 1,886
Total Damage for Single Attack, Contrived Situation: 2,870
One-Round Damage In Realistic Situation: 946
Total Damage in Realistic Situation: 950

This is completely core. If you don't allow the Orc we lose a bit of weight capacity. If we allowed a quadruped things become insane quite quickly.

[Thurbane]

I think that's a misprint - although I never saw it errata'ed anywhere...normally potions or stuff cost only more in case of expensive material components.

- Giacomo
I believe the DMG version of the potion assumes a 5th level caster (and 5 minute duration)...although why, I have no idea.

[Darth Stabber]

Okay what would you do for maximum damage under these curcumstances
3lvl (races and templates with SLAs can't use them for this experiment)
no spells/psionics/maneuvers, incarnum ok
No magic Items,
no consumables, or other 1time use business
wbl
only a Full round attack
no wishes of any kind
assume auto hit

[Tacoma]

Kind of limiting it a lot there ...

The "no consumables" puts my oil barrel Orc out of business but not for a good reason. All I have to do is kill people who have more than 9 GP in loot and I'm good to go. And causing 900 damage I just have to survive long enough to get up next to them, which means if I pick my battles I could hit targets that are way out of my CR range and thus quite profitable.

Plus, the economy of 1 CP per point of damage (to one target that is) just can't be beat.

[Blood_Lord]

Psionics are not core. SRD stuff that is not core includes not only unearthed arcana variant rules, but also epic rules, psionic rules and divine rules.

You still aren't addressing his actual argument, which is that a WotC officially printed book officially states in it's official capacity that Expanded Psionics Handbook is Core.

2) You only get 1 feat with any of your Orc-Non Fighters, but luckily proficiency is actually totally pointless anyway, since all it does is remove the +4 to hit penalty.

Of course, a better question might be highest average damage using the formula for: Average damage on hit x chance to hit, since then we'd have fewer Orcs dual wielding bastard swords for -5 to hit.

[Tacoma]

Then what AC is he trying to hit? At first level you could expect to have an attack bonus of +1 from class, +something from STR ... maybe an AC 15?

[tyckspoon]

Okay what would you do for maximum damage under these curcumstances
3lvl (races and templates with SLAs can't use them for this experiment)
no spells/psionics/maneuvers, incarnum ok
No magic Items,
no consumables, or other 1time use business
wbl
only a Full round attack
no wishes of any kind
assume auto hit

I don't think the options are going to change significantly until you start letting people use magic and/or break past level 5 (or stop assuming a hit.) Until then, Spirited Charge's x3 multiplier is still the most reliable way to do damage. Remember that every point of Power Attack returns +6 with it. In this instance, all moving up to level 3 does is increase its lead and raise the WBL cap high enough that you don't have to rely on training your own mount to save money. And you can afford to be something other than a Human- the Spirited Charger can now be an Orc and remove some of the Strength edge his competition had.

[Blood_Lord]

Then what AC is he trying to hit? At first level you could expect to have an attack bonus of +1 from class, +something from STR ... maybe an AC 15?

Average AC for all CR 1 monsters in SRD is 14.55, so 15 is good.

[sonofzeal]

I believe the DMG version of the potion assumes a 5th level caster (and 5 minute duration)...although why, I have no idea.
Because pricing guidelines are only guidelines, and are deviated from for balance concerns regularly. That's why Rods and Staffs (and a lot of limited-use or skill-boosting items) have prices that wildly deviate from the guidelines.

Think about it this way - in most situations, what's the functional difference between getting Reduced and getting Cat's Graced. In most situations where you'd want Cat's Grace (attack rolls and AC), Reduce Person gets you the same bonuses that last just as long... and boosts melee attack rolls and hide checks, at the cost of strength and grapple. All in all, Reduce/Enlarge Person are phenomenally good bargains as lvl1 spells, and I'm not at all surprised they made the easiest form of access to them less affordable.

[Thurbane]

Because pricing guidelines are only guidelines, and are deviated from for balance concerns regularly. That's why Rods and Staffs (and a lot of limited-use or skill-boosting items) have prices that wildly deviate from the guidelines.

Think about it this way - in most situations, what's the functional difference between getting Reduced and getting Cat's Graced. In most situations where you'd want Cat's Grace (attack rolls and AC), Reduce Person gets you the same bonuses that last just as long... and boosts melee attack rolls and hide checks, at the cost of strength and grapple. All in all, Reduce/Enlarge Person are phenomenally good bargains as lvl1 spells, and I'm not at all surprised they made the easiest form of access to them less affordable.
True, but but the pricing guidelines, you should be able to purchase a 1st-level, 1 minute version of the same potion for 50gp. Not that I ever bother, though...

[sonofzeal]

True, but but the pricing guidelines, you should be able to purchase a 1st-level, 1 minute version of the same potion for 50gp. Not that I ever bother, though...
I'm not disputing your grasp of rudimentary arithmetic, I'm disputing the word "should". No, I don't think you should be able to buy them for that price, because the result is more similar to a 2nd level spell (300 gp in potion form).

As for internal consistency, I'd treat it as a special product of the interaction between the magical-ethereal essence of the spell, with the material potion-making process. Or, more specifically - Reduce Person requires some powdered iron as a material component. One could argue that this means a potion of that spell should be made by Chrysopoeic principals (alchemy with inorganic matter), rather than Spagyric (alchemy with organic matter) as would be normal for potions. Now, in alchemical circles (and I'm totally not making this up), Chrysopoeia is considered a substantially more tempermental and dangerous method than Spagyria, and this is reflected by making any potion of a spell with a powdered iron component (to my knowledge: Reduce Person, Enlarge Person, Flaming Sphere, and Antimagic Field) have a minimum CL of 5 or risk toxic reactions.

[Tar Palantir]

Your view, while...interesting, is completely unsupported by the RAW or, in my opinion, the RAI. The potion brewing rules are as follows:


The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.


Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion.

[Blood_Lord]

To be fair, his point that a potion that grants you a +4 to Str costs 300gp, so why should a potion that grants you +4 to Str, greater reach, Increases size damage, and gives +4 on trip/grapple, at the cost of -2 AC -1 to hit cost only 50gp, is a valid one.

Personally, I don't care either way, but if you feel that [Adjective] of [Animal] is a good basis for balance, then Enlarge Person for 50gp isn't.

[woodenbandman]

Sleep + scythe Coup De Grace. Assuming you gave your wizard an 18 strength, that's 8d4+24.

[monty]

Sleep + scythe Coup De Grace. Assuming you gave your wizard an 18 strength, that's 8d4+24.

Now make it an orc wizard, and it becomes 8d4+36. Totally worth the -2 Int.

[sonofzeal]

Your view, while...interesting, is completely unsupported by the RAW or, in my opinion, the RAI. The potion brewing rules are as follows:
And yet the fact remains that it's that price, and has never been changed in any errata or update or alternate publishing I've ever seen. WotC rarely takes their own pricing guidelines are law, and there are dozens of examples in the SRD alone where prices are raised or lowered based (rightly or wrongly) on balance concerns.

Look, you say RAW and RAI are against me. Let's look at RAW - oh hey, the rules say those potions are expensive! Let's look at RAI - they've had every chance to fix it and haven't, and the decision is rationally justifiable out of balance concerns. I'd say that's a pretty strong argument in favour of RAI that these potions are meant to be an exception. My Chrysopoeic explaination, of course, is mere hogwash, but hogwash intended to offer a rational way to explain it that characters might understand. That, you can take or leave. But the price remains.

[Flickerdart]

And yet the fact remains that it's that price, and has never been changed in any errata or update or alternate publishing I've ever seen. WotC rarely takes their own pricing guidelines are law, and there are dozens of examples in the SRD alone where prices are raised or lowered based (rightly or wrongly) on balance concerns.

Look, you say RAW and RAI are against me. Let's look at RAW - oh hey, the rules say those potions are expensive! Let's look at RAI - they've had every chance to fix it and haven't, and the decision is rationally justifiable out of balance concerns. I'd say that's a pretty strong argument in favour of RAI that these potions are meant to be an exception. My Chrysopoeic explaination, of course, is mere hogwash, but hogwash intended to offer a rational way to explain it that characters might understand. That, you can take or leave. But the price remains.
No, you don't understand! RAW contradicts itself! That means that everything we know about D&D is wrong because RAW lies. Suddenly, Monks are good! CW Samurai are a reasonable class choice! Wizards are balanced! This is the secret of D&D: the rules are all a lie, and the true balance lies within our hearts.

Also, Fax's d20r.

[Llama231]

Sleep + scythe Coup De Grace. Assuming you gave your wizard an 18 strength, that's 8d4+24.

This sounds good too for just core, wizards yousually have sleep prepared anyway...
4 or 5 now.

[Keld Denar]

With regards to potions of EP...I'm pretty sure this is a copy/paste error hold over from 3.0 to 3.5. In 3.0, the relevant spell was Enlarge, and it lasted only rounds/level. Thus, a 1st level potion of Enlarge would last you from the time you drank it (standard action most of the time) until just before the beginning of your next round. So, unless you expect that reach to give you a TON of AoOs before the next round, you've just wasted an action in combat, and 50g. Thus, they leveled potions of Enlarge up to 5th level, to make them have actual combat viability.

Then came along 3.5, with its Enlarge Person to replace Enlarge. EP has a duration of minutes/level, 10 times that of its predicessor. Being the diligent and thorough editors that WotC are, they probably just saw what they had done before and copy/pasted it over into the new 3.5 DMG.

Thus, I don't think its unreasonable to get 1st level potions of EP that cost 50g. I'd chaulk it up to an editing mistake and allow players to buy the potions if they choose.

Then again, I'm not a WotC writer or editor, so this could all just be speculation and/or conspiracy theory, but I don't think its that far fetched...

[Blood_Lord]

This thread is officially over, because we have now determined that Wizards win.

[monty]

This thread is officially over, because we have now determined that Wizards win.

What do you mean "now"? We've known that for years.

[Tacoma]

Sleep + scythe Coup De Grace. Assuming you gave your wizard an 18 strength, that's 8d4+24.

The Sleep spell takes a standard action. I don't see where you get the action for using the scythe. Note how carefully I constructed my Orc Oiler above, and also note that he causes more than 21x the damage your Wizard coup de grace causes.

[Blood_Lord]

The Sleep spell takes a standard action. I don't see where you get the action for using the scythe. Note how carefully I constructed my Orc Oiler above, and also note that he causes more than 21x the damage your Wizard coup de grace causes.

Well, for starters, your oil thing is BS, secondarily, the attack is in one full round action, there is no rule about not getting a set up action, if there was, Clerics couldn't cast their buffs, you couldn't pour oil into a barrel, ect.

[Draz74]

@sonofzeal: There's plenty of other things that are clearly wrong, that WotC has never bothered to errata, either. They're not exactly the most diligent company about correcting their own dumb mistakes. :smalltongue:


Sleep + scythe Coup De Grace. Assuming you gave your wizard an 18 strength, that's 8d4+24.

Uh, that's two full rounds of actions. I'm pretty sure some of the barbarian/TWF-rogue builds in this thread could outdo this if you game them another round to do their thing.

[Iku Rex]

With regards to potions of EP...I'm pretty sure this is a copy/paste error hold over from 3.0 to 3.5. In 3.0, the relevant spell was Enlarge, and it lasted only rounds/level. Thus, a 1st level potion of Enlarge would last you from the time you drank it (standard action most of the time) until just before the beginning of your next round. So, unless you expect that reach to give you a TON of AoOs before the next round, you've just wasted an action in combat, and 50g. Thus, they leveled potions of Enlarge up to 5th level, to make them have actual combat viability.

Then came along 3.5, with its Enlarge Person to replace Enlarge. EP has a duration of minutes/level, 10 times that of its predicessor. Being the diligent and thorough editors that WotC are, they probably just saw what they had done before and copy/pasted it over into the new 3.5 DMG.
No.

3.0 enlarge:
Enlarge

Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature, or one object of up to 10 cu. ft. per level in volume
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell causes instant growth of a creature or object, increasing both size and weight. The subject grows by up to 10% per caster level, increasing by this amount in height, width, and depth (to a maximum of 50%). Weight increases by approximately the cube of the size increase, as follows:
Height Increase Weight Increase
--------------- ---------------
+10% (x 1.1) +30% (x 1.3)
+20% (x 1.2) +70% (x 1.7)
+30% (x 1.3) +120%(x 2.2)
+40% (x 1.4) +170% (x 2.7)
+50% (x 1.5) +240% (x 3.4)

All equipment worn or carried by a creature is enlarged by the spell. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature or object attains the maximum possible size, bursting weak enclosures in the process. However, it is constrained without harm by stronger materials—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by growth.

Magical properties are not increased by this spell. Weight, mass, and strength are affected, though. A creature’s hit points, Armor Class, and base attack bonus do not change, but Strength increases along with size. For every 20% of enlargement, the creature gains a +1 enlargement bonus to Strength.

Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

Enlarge counters and dispels reduce.
As you can see it had a duration of 1 min/level. However, you got a +10% size increase per caster level, to a maximum of +50%. Thus the random magic item potion list had 5th level enlarge potions, for maximum effect. This was copied over into 3.5.

The 3.5 potion is still caster level 5. We know this because potions, as opposed to many other magic items, have fixed pricing rules. There is no reason why you can't buy a caster level 1 potion of enlarge person instead.

[Thurbane]

I'm not disputing your grasp of rudimentary arithmetic, I'm disputing the word "should".
Gee, that's mighty kind of you. You might want to re-read the rest of my post, as I was basically agreeing with you. :smallbiggrin:

On a sidenote, how do you price Wands and Potions of eligible spells not listed in the DMG, or are they not allowed?

[Berserk Monk]

Orc barbarian
use the 18 for strength which with the orcs racial bonus gives it a 22 str (6 modifier), in a rage you'll have a 26 str (8 modifier)
for feats:
exotic weapon proficiency (goliath greathammer) it deals 1d12 damage with a x4 crit modifier
take two weaknesses in unearthed arcana to give you another two feats and take power attack and monkey grip so you can wield a large goliath greathemmer, damage increases to 3d6
take the trait reckless giving you +1 on all damage rolls
If you power attack for full (1 as you're BAB is only 1) in a rage and crit you could deal:
12 from stregth because it's a two handed weapon+1 from reckless+2 from power attack+18 from the dice rolls all landing on 6=33
33x4=132 damage

[Talic]

Orc Barbarian:
22 Str
16 Dex

Feats: Power Attack, Two weapon Fighting. Flaw: Shaky

Greatsword: 2d6+1.5 Str (power attack applies)
Armor Spikes: 1d6 +0.5 Str

Rage, attack with both.

Greatsword will deal 2d6 (7) + 12 (str +8 x 1.5) + 2 (Power attack)
Armor Spikes will deal 1d6 (3.5) + 4 (Str +8 x 0.5)

Greatsword is 21 average damage.
Armor Spikes are 7.5 average damage.

Total is 28.5 average damage in a round, at +5, +5 to hit.
Without power attack, it's 26.5 damage, at +6/+6.
With just the greatsword and power attack, it's 21 damage, at +7 to hit.
With just the greatsword, no power attack, it's 19 damage, at +8 to hit.
The greatsword alone, on a charge with power attack, is 21 damage, at +9 to hit.
The greatsword alone, on a charge, no power attack, is 19 damage, at +10 to hit.

Not Fully optimized, but enough to take down any CR 1-2 challenge, I think. Different attack options apply, based on how hard the target is to hit, but a +10 is pretty solid against any CR 1-2 encounter, and even 19 damage will drop most CR 2 or less creatures.

[ericgrau]

WRONG. This is 3.0 rules, not 3.5 rules which are Core. A Medium creature cannot wield a Large weapon, regardless of how big or small it is, without Monkey Grip. A Large Longsword is mechanically identical to a Medium Greatsword, except a Medium creature cannot wield the former at ALL, unless he has Monkey Grip.

Wrong.



Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

You have the editions reversed; that's how it was in 3.0. I had to check the title to make sure since your confusion confused me, but I see this is a 3.5 thread.


Well I have two ideas which should beat 31.5 damage in a round.

The first one is a bit crazy so I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted any of the rules, but with a human monk with the 18 in str, two weapon fighting, point blank shot, and rapid shot wielding a pair of large sais.

d6 (unarmed strike) + d6 (throw first sai) + d6 (strike with second sai) + d6 (throw second sai) + 16 (4*str)+ 2(point blank shot for the sais) = 32 on average. Granted the -2 to hit on the 4 strikes after modifiers hurts.

Great idea. Now to nit pick. Point blank shot doesn't add damage. Your extra off-hand attack from TWF only gets half strength damage. So you net 30 damage (and a -2+-2+-2=-6 to hit, btw). You could use large nunchakus as improvised thrown weapons for d8 damage (and another -4 to hit). That bumps the average damage back up to 32 34 :smalltongue:.



The third idea is simply an orc druid with a heavy horse as an animal companion and point blank shot and rapid shot as his two feats. The animal companion does a full attack for 2d6 + 2 and the druid throws a pair of clubs with shillelagh cast on them. The total damage should be 2d6 + 2 + 4d6 + 2 + 2 + 12 = 39 damage on average. If shillelagh doesn't work on thrown clubs, the druid can instead wield a quarterstaff and get two weapon fighting and deal 2 less damage.
The druid must train the horse for war for it to attack, via handle animal (as did my charger). But if that's allowed this should work. How about rapid shot + quick draw for a third club/bastard sword? You don't have a 3rd spell slot to up it's damage, but every little bit counts.



2) You only get 1 feat with any of your Orc-Non Fighters
The OP allowed 1 flaw, which yields a 2nd feat. I didn't specify the flaw, but it doesn't really matter. Hmm, I'll say "frail", heh.

If we switch to AC 15, I suspect weapon focus + power attack + greatsword orc would win. Rapid shot thrown weapon might have a chance given 2d8 + twice strength, but -2 AB. I dunno. Or a mounted combatant if that's allowed.

Dual wielding bastard swords isn't horribly crazy, btw. It's basically +4 (maybe +3) damage for -2 AB. Sound familiar? The downside is that it takes a feat and TWF isn't the greatest starting point to improve upon.

[Talic]

Also, at level 1, flurry of blows can net 2 attacks. Rapid shot can debatably increase this to 3.

You won't get a fourth.

[Blood_Lord]

Also, at level 1, flurry of blows can net 2 attacks. Rapid shot can debatably increase this to 3.

You won't get a fourth.

You can TWF Rapid Shot Flurry with thrown weapons.


Dual wielding bastard swords isn't horribly crazy, btw. It's basically +4 (maybe +3) damage for -2 AB. Sound familiar? The downside is that it takes a feat and TWF isn't the greatest starting point to improve upon.

I was specifically referring to the many TWFing builds that don't actually take TWFing, and so are taking -10 penalties.

Such as the above character throwing Bastard Swords with his Quick Draw (assuming human and flaw) at -17/-17/-17/-17.

Oh, and TWFing with Bastard swords is not even as good as TWFing regular, it costs a feat for a non-scaling -2 AB +2 damage.

And of course, it carries all the regular disadvantages of TWFing.

[Draz74]

Now to nit pick. Point blank shot doesn't add damage.

Yes it does.

[Thurbane]

Yes it does.
Correct...

POINT BLANK SHOT [GENERAL]

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.

Special: A fighter may select Point Blank Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Skaven]

Umm.. letsee. Taking dice averages.

1st level rogue, half orc 20 str, dual wield longswords with TWF.

On a hit with both attacks from stealth against a flat footed opponent..

2x 1d8 +5 (9.5 + 9.5 = 19 ) + ( 2x sneak attack 3.5+3.5 = 7) =26? Eh.

[monty]

Umm.. letsee. Taking dice averages.

1st level rogue, half orc 20 str, dual wield longswords with TWF.

On a hit with both attacks from stealth against a flat footed opponent..

2x 1d8 +5 (9.5 + 9.5 = 19 ) + ( 2x sneak attack 3.5+3.5 = 7) =26? Eh.

Been there, done that. This has pretty much been done to death within core.