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TheGlow
2009-01-10, 11:58 PM
Hi, first time poster. Been playing d&d 1st ed since I was 7 or so and a lot of 2nd edition. Barely any 3rd and being brought into a 4th campaign next week.
So Ive been looking at 4th since it came out but playing is something else.
Any ideas for a Human rogue, preferably brutal scoundrel build.
I like to rob and just get up behind people and backstab away.
Usually roleplaying a combination of a clepto, swashbuckler, Capn Jack Sparrow kind of way. Cant resist stealing. I guard the "rear" often. Stealing from teammates is also commonplace, hence many people fear when I pass notes to the DM, always leading to everyone checking their inventory.

For stats I dunno, i figured id cut to the chase and grab 18 dex, and then the 2 modifier for a flat 20. But should I 13/13 Str and Cha? Str and Con? 14 and 11 something. I dunno.

Also it seems I should have access to Martial Powers so Disheartening Strike seems like it may be a great idea..

RTGoodman
2009-01-11, 12:20 AM
First, welcome to the Playground! I'm sure you'll waste your life away spend a lot of awesome time 'round these parts! :smalltongue:

For 4E, one thing to remember is that it's not necessarily IMPERATIVE to start with a 20 in your primary stat. I mean, you'll definitely want a 16+, but you don't have to have the highest number possible. In fact, spending all those points just to buy the 18 REALLY takes away from your other defenses. I'd probably suggest a 16 Dex (+2 race, for a final 18) and then maybe 14-16 Str, and then point your other points in Cha, Con, Int, Wis (in that order, but you can switch Cha and Con).

Either way, Martial Power is pretty good, but so are a lot of the powers from the PHB. Really, in 4E, it's pretty hard to screw up a character. Yeah, there are some obvious good and bad powers, but none that'll make you useless. If you want optimization, just Google "4E Rogue Handbook" or something; if you're not as worried, just pick what sounds cool and go to town.


One final thing I'd suggest is you might want to tone down or avoid entirely the kleptomania and party-robbing. 4E, moreso than any other edition I think, focused on the PARTY rather than the INDIVIDUAL, so making the party mad at you means your leader won't give you boosts or heal you up much, your defender won't stop those big bads from getting to you (the squishy striker), and your controller might just decide it's worth the risk to catch you in that fireball or other AOE. That's not to say you can't be a suave thief guy, because you can, but I'd just say don't be a tool. It's a cooperative game, after all. If the party's okay with it, though, then by all means steal away! :smallbiggrin:

Mando Knight
2009-01-11, 12:34 AM
Probably going to get ninja'd... :smallsigh: (EDIT: knew it!)

18 Dex before race modifiers is quite expensive, really. I'd only purchase that if the race I chose didn't have a racial modifier in the class's primary attack stat (i.e. Dragonborn Rogue, which works well as either an Artful Dodger or a Brutal Scoundrel...). That 20 is only a +1 modifier with the cost of 7 points... points that could be put into Strength. I'd suggest a 16/16/13/11/10/8 stat array (before racial modifiers), placing the 11 in Con, the 16s in Strength and Dexterity, and the 13 in Charisma. Put the other two in Intelligence or Wisdom as you please, and place the +2 racial bonus into Dexterity.

Compared to an Str 13, Dex 20, Con/Int/Wis 10/10/8, Cha 13 build, a Brutal Scoundrel with 16 Str and 18 Dex has -1 to hit, but +2 to damage. If you're wielding a dagger, then your 1st level to-hit will be a +8 with even just 18 Dex, and that's as higher than most classes (Wizard, Cleric, Warlord, Warlock, Paladin, Swordmage, TWF Ranger...) could hope for without pouring points in for a 20 in their primary attack stat and then wielding a +3 proficiency bonus weapon (most light and heavy blades, greatspears).

For at-wills, Disheartening Strike is useful, even if it's just for the Rattling keyword. Piercing Strike is also useful, as it attacks Reflex Defense rather than AC, granting (effectively) a nice extra bonus to hit. Deft Strike is useful for its shifting bonus: you can easily slip into place across from the Defender for easy Combat Advantage. Look for Encounter and Daily powers that prolong Combat Advantage: this will allow you to engage opponents other than the one your Friendly Neighborhood Paladin has locked down.

For Utilities, a 2nd level Encounter Utility will help your thievery (pick-pocketing, lock-picking, and trap-disabling): the PHB's Quick Fingers, which cuts the time down on a Thievery check from a standard action to a minor action.

For weapon choice, a Rapier is the definitive Swashbuckler's Weapon, but costs a feat to use properly, and doesn't give you the dagger's extra +1 bonus. However, if you're certain to get Combat Advantage every round, then the bonus might not matter, and the doubled up die size (compared to a dagger) will become more useful.

cupkeyk
2009-01-11, 12:48 AM
I would also like to discourage you from stealing from party mates, or from anyone, actually.

if you look at the DC for stealing, it's 20+target's level. at level 1 with 20 dex, your modifier could be +11 with a FR region with +2 to thievery. The DC's go up by +1 by level while your skill modifier goes up by +1 every other level. The DC's will scale against your favor as you level up until it borders into impossible. Investing skill focus into thievery is a wasted feat. the race with a racial bonus to thievery does not get +2 to dex(tiefling)

As for paragon path, check out Sword Coast Corsair from Forgotten Realms campaign setting, for that piratey goodness, since you mentioned jack sparrow. Not as optimal as Dagger Master or the assassin PP, but its very solid.

A twenty in DEX is actually a good idea. Putting a fourteen in STR makes you decent as brutal scoundrel, and also improves your basic attack in case you have a nova warlord in the party. You hitpoints and healing surge will suffer, but a human will put toughness and durable as his first two feats and getting backstabber at two. Don't forget to get action surge later.

A more balanced build is a 20 dex, 13 con, 15 cha artful dodger (halfling or drow, also from FRPG). Better hitpoints, better defences, albeit needful in the basic attack department. There are a lot of forums with this build so its a bit passe for me.

KKL
2009-01-11, 12:50 AM
if you look at the DC for stealing, it's 20+target's level.

Errata's knocked it down to 20+half level.

Asbestos
2009-01-11, 12:57 AM
I would also like to discourage you from stealing from party mates, or from anyone, actually.

if you look at the DC for stealing, it's 20+target's level. at level 1 with 20 dex, your modifier could be +11 with a FR region with +2 to thievery. The DC's go up by +1 by level while your skill modifier goes up by +1 every other level. The DC's will scale against your favor as you level up until it borders into impossible. Investing skill focus into thievery is a wasted feat. the race with a racial bonus to thievery does not get +2 to dex(tiefling)

It was changed to 20+ 1/2 target's level, so it should scale with you decently, or better at least.

edit: I is slow.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-11, 05:30 AM
For stats I dunno, i figured id cut to the chase and grab 18 dex, and then the 2 modifier for a flat 20. But should I 13/13 Str and Cha? Str and Con? 14 and 11 something. I dunno.
You're a brutal scoundrel, so you can safely ignore Cha and boost Str. You'll generally want two "important" scores so you can boost them every 4th level.

I'd recommoned Dex 17, Str 16.

Good feats include Warrior of the Wild (damage bonus and +1 skill), Skill focus stealth, and Nimble blade (+1 to hit is awesome, since a well-played rogue should have combat advantage 90% of the time).

Weapon choice: mechanically, the dagger is your best weapon, becuase of its to-hit boost. You're a striker, so your job is to hit things, and a +1 to-hit is huge in 4E. I played a rogue a while ago, who could hit things on a natural 2. Oh, and daggers have the added advantage that you can throw them.



For Utilities, a 2nd level Encounter Utility will help your thievery (pick-pocketing, lock-picking, and trap-disabling):
While that's true, in my experience you'll get more mileage out of Tumble. Shift/3 is likely to be useful pretty much every encounter.

KKL
2009-01-11, 05:40 AM
Don't bother with the level 2 Theivery utility, or at least in battle. Pickpocketing during a fight takes a -10 penalty. There's a level 10 Utility that negates that, however.

TheGlow
2009-01-11, 11:10 AM
Thanks for the replies. And I see a good point that it is more party oriented.
I usually did it for the shenanigans. Steal from one, plant it on another, etc. All in good fun. Id always give the stuff back.
But yea, no drow, otherwise id try the artful dodger.
I just recall the first few weeks 4e came out that on the official forums they had a good debate for the benefits of 20 dex since every skill utilizes it.
But I guess for a first char I should take that down 1 or 2 and pump str and con.
16/16 str/dex and 13 con more practical? what would the benefits of 13 cha be over the 13 con?

Kurald Galain
2009-01-11, 11:16 AM
16/16 str/dex and 13 con more practical? what would the benefits of 13 cha be over the 13 con?
That con doesn't do much for you, whereas cha adds to your will defense and to a few skills.

Getting +2 hit points isn't all that relevant after level 1 (and if it bothers you, take Toughness); and if the defenders are doing their jobs you are unlikely to ever run out of healing surges.

Shadow_Elf
2009-01-11, 11:59 AM
Obviously you can go for whichever build you want, but it looks like your character roleplays like an Artful Dodger rogue (klepto, swashbuckler, etc.) than a Brutal Scoundrel. For pulling off any sort of actual swashbuckling, you'd need a higher Cha then Str. If you want to build it one way, but play it another, that's fine, but you're not going to be a convincing swashbuckler with 13 CHA.

There are some nice advantages to having a good Bluff check, in Roleplay, and in combat. You can actually, as a standard action, roll Bluff for "Look! A Destrachan! Distraction!", then slink away. Or, distract them, action point, stab them rather literally in the back. Combined with Action Surge (PHB Human Racial Feat), it would make your action points much more worthwhile (rogues don't typically like APs much, since they can't get Sneak Attack more than once per round).

Also, go with Daggers for sure. If you want a superior weapon, take a feat for Parrying Dagger (not Rapier), and that will net you a nice AC bonus, and still let you keep your +1 to hit from daggers.

Mando Knight
2009-01-11, 12:16 PM
While that's true, in my experience you'll get more mileage out of Tumble. Shift/3 is likely to be useful pretty much every encounter.

Yeah, I realized that. I was just pointing out Quick Fingers because of his stated penchant for pilfering.

TheGlow
2009-01-11, 02:40 PM
I forgot that cha affects will as well.
I guess Im going to go with str 16, con 12, dex 18, int 8, wis 10, cha 12.
Unless I come across a need for 13cha over an 11 con, ill stick with this.
And note, Jack Sparrow wasnt exactly suave and got smacked often, i would say those were all failed cha checks.
Im similar, I try stuff, knowing full well it will fail, to get into a ruckus and what not.
It seems that ill start at lvl 3, so thats a lvl 4, 3 and 2 magic item. I dont really see anything lvl 4. can you trade down? Im guessin a frost dagger, breaching armor and a cloak of resistance..
And I figure ill skip on disheartening and go deft, piercing and riposte to cover most bases.
And not to skip anything, a rogue just using a dagger and occasional shurikens wont lose out on equipping a shield, right?
Im so used to dual wielding all these years.
Artemis Entreri and Jarlaxle are some of my inspirations as well.

The New Bruceski
2009-01-11, 04:06 PM
Rogues can't use shields base. I'd suggest looking at dual-wielding, they've removed all penalties. Even if you don't spend feats for extra bonuses, it can be handy.

My last rogue was the club/rattling rogue from Martial Power. I still carried four daggers, and always had one in my off hand. I took one dip for +1 damage, and it let me have a ranged attack ready at all times. You can't always make it to melee every turn, and unenchanted daggers are cheap. A minor action to draw a new dagger was fine, because I wasn't using them on anything.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-11, 04:59 PM
I
It seems that ill start at lvl 3, so thats a lvl 4, 3 and 2 magic item. I dont really see anything lvl 4. can you trade down? Im guessin a frost dagger, breaching armor and a cloak of resistance..
Yes, you can trade down.

While a magic weapon is paramount to a striker, I don't think that a +1 magic armor and cloak is going to make all that much of a difference. If there are cool utility items those might be more useful to you (e.g. flaying gloves, casque of tactics).

TheGlow
2009-01-11, 10:18 PM
Yes, you can trade down.

While a magic weapon is paramount to a striker, I don't think that a +1 magic armor and cloak is going to make all that much of a difference. If there are cool utility items those might be more useful to you (e.g. flaying gloves, casque of tactics).

Aye aye, I gave it another look and think I'll be going for the Hedge Wizards gloves, hehe. Sounds right up my alley for causing fun.

Oh what is the stand on a main weapon? I know daggers are great and daggermaster is awesome sounding. but what was the verdict on Rapiers and the new paragon paths?
I may just opt to stick with daggers and dagger master.

Shadow_Elf
2009-01-11, 10:27 PM
Why not opt for daggers and go with Flying Blade Adept (if you have Martial Power available)? They get to run around the battlefield, be a general nuisance, and most importantly, throw daggers all the time. Their utility power involves knocking an incoming projectile out of the air with a dagger. So when the hobgoblin shaman pulls out all the stops to unleash his magnificent bolt of primal might, you show up with the anti-climax and intercept it with a dagger :smallbiggrin:.

Also, a great RP opportunity if you go with daggers, is to keep like 30 of them concealed on your person. If the DM ever takes your party hostage, or has a guard search you for weapons, make him account for all of them :smallbiggrin:.

Cute_Riolu
2009-01-11, 11:15 PM
Also, a great RP opportunity if you go with daggers, is to keep like 30 of them concealed on your person. If the DM ever takes your party hostage, or has a guard search you for weapons, make him account for all of them :smallbiggrin:.

This. I did this. I in fact was taken hostage by my own Chaotic Neutral party (3.5). They found around 35 daggers on me.

Colmarr
2009-01-12, 02:00 AM
This is my brutal scoundrel build:


Race:
Human. Just cause I like them :smallwink:

Abilities:
Str 16 - obvious reasons, really.
Con 12 - a brutal scoundrel will be getting hit, so the extra hp and healing surge are nice.
Dex 18 - incl. human bonus
Int 8 - I stab things, not study them
Wis 10
Chas 12 - Will defence, intimidate, and rogue power

Skills:
Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery, Intimidate + 1 other. You'll need intimidate for rattling powers, even if you go with a low Cha build.

Feats:
Weapon proficiency (double sword): Unless you absolutely have to have a weapon you can shoot/throw, this is the shiznit for brutal scoundrels. You lose the +1 attack bonus for dagger from rogue weapon talent, but you up your [W] die to 1d8 from 1d4. This in turn makes 2[W] and 3[W] powers more attractive. It counts as a light blade for sneak attack, and also has the defensive property, so you get +1 AC as icing on the cake.

Nimble Blade: You'll be looking for combat advantage as often as possible anyway, and this feat makes you even more dangerous when you find it.

Other attractive options include defensive mobility (to help you reach flanking positions in one piece) and action surge.

Powers:

At-will:

Piercing Strike: Targetting reflex is nice to have, especially against those soldier-types with high AC. Remember that each of your missed attacks potentially costs your party 1d8+2d6+7 damage.

Disheartening Strike: The -2 to attacks from Rattling is a nice de-buff and helps limit the incoming damage you risk by being in the front line.

Riposte Strike: Consider this a way of "persuading" a monster not to attack you. 1d8+3 may not sound like much, but if it's coupled with a fighter's combat challenge, a paladin's divine challenge auto-damage, or a swordmage's aegis of assault, monsters will think twice before attacking you, especially if they're already bloodied from your first sneak attack.

Encounter:

Torturous Strike: Hey, you're playing a scoundrel for the high damage right?

Daily:

Handspring assault (from martial power): IMO, without a doubt the best level 1 daily for brutal scoundrels. Must be trained in acrobatics and wielding a light blade. With a double sword it deals 3d8 + 2d6 + 7 damage with sneak attack for an average of 27.5 at first level. 43 on a crit. Can be used on a charge (such as in the surprise round for easy combat advantage) and on top of all that it's Reliable, so if you miss you can try again next round.

He hasn't seen any actual play yet, but he's the product of a few hours research and careful consideration, and our group's minmaxer (not that I'm a bunny, but he's out of this world) can't really fault any of the decisions.

Colmarr
2009-01-12, 02:08 AM
Deft Strike is useful for its shifting bonus: you can easily slip into place across from the Defender for easy Combat Advantage.

Be careful with Deft Strike. The bonus movement is not a shift, so you'll draw OAs if you move around adjacent to enemies with it.

KKL
2009-01-12, 02:45 AM
This is my brutal scoundrel build:


Race:
Human. Just cause I like them :smallwink:

Abilities:
Str 16 - obvious reasons, really.
Con 12 - a brutal scoundrel will be getting hit, so the extra hp and healing surge are nice.
Dex 18 - incl. human bonus
Int 8 - I stab things, not study them
Wis 10
Chas 12 - Will defence, intimidate, and rogue power

Skills:
Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery, Intimidate + 1 other. You'll need intimidate for rattling powers, even if you go with a low Cha build.

Feats:
Weapon proficiency (double sword): Unless you absolutely have to have a weapon you can shoot/throw, this is the shiznit for brutal scoundrels. You lose the +1 attack bonus for dagger from rogue weapon talent, but you up your [W] die to 1d8 from 1d4. This in turn makes 2[W] and 3[W] powers more attractive. It counts as a light blade for sneak attack, and also has the defensive property, so you get +1 AC as icing on the cake.

Nimble Blade: You'll be looking for combat advantage as often as possible anyway, and this feat makes you even more dangerous when you find it.

Other attractive options include defensive mobility (to help you reach flanking positions in one piece) and action surge.

Powers:

At-will:

Piercing Strike: Targetting reflex is nice to have, especially against those soldier-types with high AC. Remember that each of your missed attacks potentially costs your party 1d8+2d6+7 damage.

Disheartening Strike: The -2 to attacks from Rattling is a nice de-buff and helps limit the incoming damage you risk by being in the front line.

Riposte Strike: Consider this a way of "persuading" a monster not to attack you. 1d8+3 may not sound like much, but if it's coupled with a fighter's combat challenge, a paladin's divine challenge auto-damage, or a swordmage's aegis of assault, monsters will think twice before attacking you, especially if they're already bloodied from your first sneak attack.

Encounter:

Torturous Strike: Hey, you're playing a scoundrel for the high damage right?

Daily:

Handspring assault (from martial power): IMO, without a doubt the best level 1 daily for brutal scoundrels. Must be trained in acrobatics and wielding a light blade. With a double sword it deals 3d8 + 2d6 + 7 damage with sneak attack for an average of 27.5 at first level. 43 on a crit. Can be used on a charge (such as in the surprise round for easy combat advantage) and on top of all that it's Reliable, so if you miss you can try again next round.

He hasn't seen any actual play yet, but he's the product of a few hours research and careful consideration, and our group's minmaxer (not that I'm a bunny, but he's out of this world) can't really fault any of the decisions.

Very solid, the only thing you could do better at this point is Bugbear, and 20 Dex/16 Str, imo. Athough that'd make you drop Nimble Blade. :P

I personally loathe Double Swords, but that's just me.

Colmarr
2009-01-12, 04:25 AM
Very solid, the only thing you could do better at this point is Bugbear, and 20 Dex/16 Str, imo. Athough that'd make you drop Nimble Blade. :P

I personally loathe Double Swords, but that's just me.

I personally don't like playing monstrous PCs, so Bugbear is off the menu for this particular character.

And as for double swords, I generally dislike the very idea of such a ridiculous weapon, but there's no denying the stabby goodness that the double sword provides to a brutal scoundrel :smallbiggrin:

I wouldn't be surprised if the double sword got an errata soon.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-12, 06:27 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the double sword got an errata soon.
I would, actually. WOTC hasn't done any errata since last august, and frankly there are several things more in need of errata than this.

TheGlow
2009-01-12, 08:25 AM
This is my brutal scoundrel build:


Race:
Human. Just cause I like them :smallwink:

Abilities:
Str 16 - obvious reasons, really.
Con 12 - a brutal scoundrel will be getting hit, so the extra hp and healing surge are nice.
Dex 18 - incl. human bonus
Int 8 - I stab things, not study them
Wis 10
Chas 12 - Will defence, intimidate, and rogue power

Skills:
Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery, Intimidate + 1 other. You'll need intimidate for rattling powers, even if you go with a low Cha build.

Feats:
Weapon proficiency (double sword): Unless you absolutely have to have a weapon you can shoot/throw, this is the shiznit for brutal scoundrels. You lose the +1 attack bonus for dagger from rogue weapon talent, but you up your [W] die to 1d8 from 1d4. This in turn makes 2[W] and 3[W] powers more attractive. It counts as a light blade for sneak attack, and also has the defensive property, so you get +1 AC as icing on the cake.

Nimble Blade: You'll be looking for combat advantage as often as possible anyway, and this feat makes you even more dangerous when you find it.

Other attractive options include defensive mobility (to help you reach flanking positions in one piece) and action surge.

Powers:

At-will:

Piercing Strike: Targetting reflex is nice to have, especially against those soldier-types with high AC. Remember that each of your missed attacks potentially costs your party 1d8+2d6+7 damage.

Disheartening Strike: The -2 to attacks from Rattling is a nice de-buff and helps limit the incoming damage you risk by being in the front line.

Riposte Strike: Consider this a way of "persuading" a monster not to attack you. 1d8+3 may not sound like much, but if it's coupled with a fighter's combat challenge, a paladin's divine challenge auto-damage, or a swordmage's aegis of assault, monsters will think twice before attacking you, especially if they're already bloodied from your first sneak attack.

Encounter:

Torturous Strike: Hey, you're playing a scoundrel for the high damage right?

Daily:

Handspring assault (from martial power): IMO, without a doubt the best level 1 daily for brutal scoundrels. Must be trained in acrobatics and wielding a light blade. With a double sword it deals 3d8 + 2d6 + 7 damage with sneak attack for an average of 27.5 at first level. 43 on a crit. Can be used on a charge (such as in the surprise round for easy combat advantage) and on top of all that it's Reliable, so if you miss you can try again next round.

He hasn't seen any actual play yet, but he's the product of a few hours research and careful consideration, and our group's minmaxer (not that I'm a bunny, but he's out of this world) can't really fault any of the decisions.

Nod, not bad. Stats similar to mine except I may swap wis/int for roleplay purposes.
Im still debating rattling powers. Figured disheartening would be useful early on, but later *shrug*
Also I read up on that doublesword. Its so good its hard to resist it. But it just doesnt seem to fit my style and it does indeed seem like errata is around the corner for it. How it counts as light, I dont know cuz it doesnt seem like it has finesse for rogue type attacks.
but which Paragon path would you go with? I was thinking daggermaster for the simplicity.
Also Im favoring Kings Castle over torturous. Torturous just adds the str bonus to damage, where kings castle at least hits Reflex which seems to be more useful to me, and then if necessary moving places.

TheGlow
2009-01-13, 02:31 AM
OK, I figured Ill keep it simple and stick to daggers and go daggermaster eventually.
Still debating which 3 at wills. I know Deft and Piercing, but undecided on Riposte or Disheartening..
For Deft, provoking an OA is only when you leave a square, right? Its ok to run up to someone and not provoke?

Also for feats, lvl 3 so I start with 3.
im leaning with nimble blade, backstabber and slaying action. And figure I can take action surge next maybe...I figure if I get in there and get a good sneak stab in, I can action up another.
And is spending a feat on parrying dagger worth it just for 1 ac?

Colmarr
2009-01-13, 04:59 AM
but which Paragon path would you go with? I was thinking daggermaster for the simplicity.

Daggermaster is a solid PP for dagger-wielders. For my particular build it depends on whether you want to accentuate your strengths or minimise your weaknesses. Assuming you want to build on your strengths (raw damage), I'd choose either Shadow Assassin from the PHB or Death Dealer from Martial Power. I haven't really looked at the "minimise your weaknesses angle", but it would probably be a PP that grants shifting powers or AC benefits.


For Deft, provoking an OA is only when you leave a square, right? Its ok to run up to someone and not provoke?

Correct.


And is spending a feat on parrying dagger worth it just for 1 ac?

I would say not. If you really want the +1 AC, take Light Shield Proficiency. It will get you +1 Ref as well.

TheGlow
2009-01-13, 05:35 PM
Decisions, Decisions. I just think if Im going to go with one of the other paragons, I might as well take up rapier as well.
Shadow assassin sounds juicy with action surge. If I had slaying action, that would make it +7 to hit for a SA I believe.
Death dealer seems good, but the skills dont really seem to be that magnificent compared to dagger master or shadow assassin.

Man, I cant make up my mind.
Im thinking either 18dex, 16 str, 12con, 12cha and just stick to daggers...

Or going 20 dex, 14str, and going rapier and maybe shadow assassin...