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imp_fireball
2009-01-11, 04:28 AM
I gave it thought, and it's apparent that DEX isn't all that regarded as a stat. On that note, neither is CON, although it is regarded with some necessity among frontline classes as well as the wizard/sorceror for more of a point dumper. DEX isn't a necessary attribute for any of the core classes to function.

On this note, would it be plausible for anyone to homebrew up some classes that absolutely need DEX? Perhaps a martial class that merges DEX and STR and a caster that merges DEX and some other attribute? For the latter, I might have saw a dancer type somewhere, but it's probably lost.

Ah well, nonetheless... ideas?

Frog Dragon
2009-01-11, 04:31 AM
umm... Dex is very important to rogues for AC almost always hitting things and sneaking. It's important to melee classes for AC and Arcanists want ray accuracy. It's a prime attribute for a rogue nearly always-

imp_fireball
2009-01-11, 04:33 AM
Yes, but it isn't a prime attribute. And rogues aren't the target of attacks. Dex is merely needed for sneaking about, throwing things, saves, touch AC, defensive rolls, and that's it.

OK, that's a lot of things, however it applies to every class all the same unless you consider the rogue's special abilities every 10 levels.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-01-11, 04:36 AM
Yes, but it isn't a prime attribute. And rogues aren't the target of attacks. Dex is merely needed for sneaking about, throwing things, saves, touch AC, defensive rolls, and that's it.

OK, that's a lot of things, however it applies to every class all the same unless you consider the rogue's special abilities every 10 levels.
Dude, weren't you listening. It's nearly always a prime attribute for rogues. It's also a pre-requisite to a few feats and gives a bunch of passive perks: bonuses to initiative, AC and weapon finesse and ranged attacks. Or do you mean it isn't a highly regarded attribute? You need to make this distinction.

Rogues are targets? Uhhh what? Maybe you mean to say they're not high on the priority list as a target? If this is what you're saying, on what basis are you making this claim, especially given any number of given gaming situations or playstyles that could crop up. I know I'd give serious consideration at killing a scout who doesn't belong or killing a flanking rogue.

So what exactly is your point? Dexterity doesn't get enough love? Okay, neither does wisdom or charisma apparently. And both attributes are arguably worse. So what?

Thanatos 51-50
2009-01-11, 04:48 AM
Yes, but it isn't a prime attribute. And rogues aren't the target of attacks. Dex is merely needed for sneaking about, throwing things, saves, touch AC, defensive rolls, and that's it.

OK, that's a lot of things, however it applies to every class all the same unless you consider the rogue's special abilities every 10 levels.

You forgot shooting things.

Sweet, treacherous and treasonous Immortals, you forgot shooting things.
Without ranting on how important I have found the ability to shoot things - I feel obliged to point out that Armour Class is God in a martial encounter. Sneaking about gets you a major drop on the enemy, a surprise round means more sneak attack dice rolled in the encounter.
Dexterity governs Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Ride, Use Rope, Disable Device, Lockpicking, Balance - and I'm pretty sure some other neat skills I can't recall off the top of my head - all of which are VERY useful skills.

With a feat and the right weapon, it also governs stabbing things.

Dexterity is a beautfiul important, all-powerful attribute which I sacrifice small kittens to. My Unholy Altar to Dexterity is caked in kitten blood. (Admittidly, I don't like cats)

Dexterity is a God-Stat.

Alternatly, you could just ignore everything I wrote their Lauding Our Lord and Master, Dexterity, and play 4e, where pretty much all of the Rogue's and the Archer's (Read: Ranged Ranger) attack powers are Dexterity vs X.
That might make you happier.

EDIT:
Also, Rogues come standard with a bull's eye painted on their forehead. The Hide skill odes a little bit to cover it up.

JackMage666
2009-01-11, 07:10 AM
Yeah, it's actually widely considered that Dex is the most needed stat out of all the classes. The only exclusion to this is the Figher/Paladin in Full Plate/other heavy armor, but even then it's still useful (especially when heavy armor becomes obsolete.)

Dex effects -
Reflex saves
Several Skills (a very good number of them)
AC (Base AC and Touch AC)
Initiative
Ranged Attacks (automatically)
Melee Attacks (with the help of Weapon Finesse, and easy achievably feat)

And there are several ways to get Dexterity to effect other things, too. These are just the simplest ones. The only thing more is Spells, and putting a physical stat in charge of spells is... Bad idea, Int is useful, for instant, for skills and Spells, that's it. Cha is useful for a few good skills and spellcasting, nothing else. Wisdom is perception and spells, but nothing else. Mental stat's power is replaced by their limited uses.

In comparison -

Str effects -
Climb, Jump, Swim.
Melee Damage (automatically)
Melee Attacks (automatically)
Ranged Damage (thrown/Composite bows)
Ranged Attacks (With thrown weapons only, and with the right feat from Complete Warrior at that)
Carrying capacity.

So, pretty much just damage (which is second-rate in 3.5e, when spells and sneak attack can do so much more so much quicker.)

Con effects -
Hit Points/level
Concentrate
Fortitude saves

So, not much. Good things, but not much.

Face it, Dex is utterly awesome in comparison to the others.

imp_fireball
2009-01-11, 07:38 PM
I'd think int is probably the best attribute, but that's just an opinion.

CHA and WIS are prime attributes. Why? Because they're both needed in casting spells. WIS the main attribute of the cleric and druid, CHA is the main attribute of the sorceror and bard.

Sneak Attack does not require DEX to perform. It requires being a rogue/assassin/ninja/etc.. Are you saying that rogues are utterly awesome?

Also, I'd say rogues do not wish to be the target of attacks aside from spells and conditions that require reflex saves. However it's impossible to predict, by sending a rogue to the front line that anything besides traps (which a rogue can no doubt handle) would spring up on him. Also, melee is ultimately better, despite AC penalties. There's a variety of melee abilities that can be performed without any feats needed. There's conditions that increase melee attack modifiers. Also, consider campaigns in which very few feats may be selected, so your rogue might only have one feat at first level unless your human. Human fighters might also stand as utterly awesome in these settings, with three feats at first level.

None of that applies to ranged, unless the enemy you target is prone in some way.

Heavy armor will never be obsolete if your character was originally proficient with it, particularly when the superior light armor addition is countered by a superior heavy armor addition. Ie. Chain shirt +5 is better then full plate, but then a few levels later you discover full plate +5. You then find a way to make your chain shirt mithril and adamantium at the same time somehow, but then later on you find a fullplate mithril/adamantium that's superior. Clearly, you haven't played through enough campaigns it looks like.

I'm looking for a class that revolves around DEX.

Maerok
2009-01-11, 07:45 PM
I gave it thought, and it's apparent that DEX isn't all that regarded as a stat. On that note, neither is CON, although it is regarded with some necessity among frontline classes as well as the wizard/sorceror for more of a point dumper. DEX isn't a necessary attribute for any of the core classes to function.

On this note, would it be plausible for anyone to homebrew up some classes that absolutely need DEX? Perhaps a martial class that merges DEX and STR and a caster that merges DEX and some other attribute? For the latter, I might have saw a dancer type somewhere, but it's probably lost.

Ah well, nonetheless... ideas?

This just seems backward.

imp_fireball
2009-01-11, 07:53 PM
... why, how?

What I meant is, DEX isn't a prime attribute for any class I know that's not homebrew, and even then; it's not given very much regard/attention among any of the wotc classes that I've seen.

If I meant that DEX needs more love, which it certainly does not any more then any other attribute, then I'd say "People need to appreciate DEX more."

Lappy9000
2009-01-11, 07:57 PM
Heavy armor will never be obsolete if your character was originally proficient with it, particularly when the superior light armor addition is countered by a superior heavy armor addition.

Touch Attack.


Clearly, you haven't played through enough campaigns it looks like.
Always be careful when using that phrase, because it appears condenscending, no matter how you meant it.

This is becoming more of a discussion, which would belong in the Gaming d20 board.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-11, 08:06 PM
Heavy armor will never be obsolete if your character was originally proficient with it, particularly when the superior light armor addition is countered by a superior heavy armor addition. Ie. Chain shirt +5 is better then full plate, but then a few levels later you discover full plate +5. You then find a way to make your chain shirt mithril and adamantium at the same time somehow, but then later on you find a fullplate mithril/adamantium that's superior. Clearly, you haven't played through enough campaigns it looks like.

Forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but are you suggesting that rogues should be wearing heavy armor rather than light or medium? If that's the case, I'm afraid you shall find some disagreement on that front. If not, my reading skills must be failing me. :smallsmile:

lisiecki
2009-01-11, 08:12 PM
... why, how?

What I meant is, DEX isn't a prime attribute for any class I know that's not homebrew, and even then; it's not given very much regard/attention among any of the wotc classes that I've seen.


Using only happy words
what do you think the prime attribute for rogues is?

The Glyphstone
2009-01-11, 08:40 PM
Rogues like Dexterity because with Weapon finesse, they can take it and completely dump Strength, since their main damage source is Sneak Attack. This improves their overall AC and Initiative (both important to a rogue), helps their Reflex save (higher chance for Evasion to work), and synergizes with far more of their relevant skills than Strength would (Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope are all Dex-dependent skills on the Rogue's class list, versus Climb, Jump, and Swim for Str-dependent.

EDIT: And below makes a good point - it's pretty much a guarantee that rogues don't want to get attacked in combat. That has no bearing whatsoever on if they will get attacked or not, particularly against intelligent enemies. And when they DO get attacked....Dex will help them out there, moreso than it would a beefy fighter in plate.

Mando Knight
2009-01-11, 08:45 PM
Heavy armor will never be obsolete if your character was originally proficient with it, particularly when the superior light armor addition is countered by a superior heavy armor addition. Ie. Chain shirt +5 is better then full plate, but then a few levels later you discover full plate +5. You then find a way to make your chain shirt mithril and adamantium at the same time somehow, but then later on you find a fullplate mithril/adamantium that's superior. Clearly, you haven't played through enough campaigns it looks like.

I'm looking for a class that revolves around DEX.

I don't know who you're playing with, nor how often you play, but your derision of Dexterity's usefulness is... disturbing.

What's a high-Dex character doing in heavy armor? Yes, it's more powerful as a defensive measure, but it has massive check penalties, and Dex-based classes don't start out proficient in it.

You're looking for Rogue: a Rogue has no reason to be in anything heavier than a Chain Shirt, and when she reaches 26 Dex (unlikely without a few magic items, though...), her normal AC will be the same as a Paladin/Fighter in Full Plate when she's in padded armor, and her primary abilities will be maximized: with Weapon Finesse or ranged weapons, her to-hit is high, her Reflex Save is high, her Disable Device, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, etc. checks will be through the roof...

...A ranged-Ranger will be much the same, though with different focuses...

Lert, A.
2009-01-11, 08:57 PM
Sneak Attack does not require DEX to perform. It requires being a rogue/assassin/ninja/etc.. Are you saying that rogues are utterly awesome?

Yes. They are. I'm not biased, really.


Also, I'd say rogues do not wish to be the target of attacks aside from spells and conditions that require reflex saves.

I'm pretty sure that not wanting to get hit applies to everyone. And what is it that helps Reflex saves again?


Heavy armor will never be obsolete if your character was originally proficient with it, particularly when the superior light armor addition is countered by a superior heavy armor addition. Ie. Chain shirt +5 is better then full plate, but then a few levels later you discover full plate +5. You then find a way to make your chain shirt mithril and adamantium at the same time somehow, but then later on you find a fullplate mithril/adamantium that's superior.

So you think Int is the best skill because you need to max out your skill ranks to use Dex based skills in armor? Skills which will works less often because you don't believe that Dex is really a primary stat that needs attention.


Clearly, you haven't played through enough campaigns it looks like.

:yuk:

Okay, coming from someone who has played the game for decades and has GMed dozens of campaigns, I can tell you that a rogue needs Dex. As do archer rangers or ranged fighters, swashbucklers of all sorts....


I'm looking for a class that revolves around DEX.

I'm fairly certain that you are not, because people are giving very good reasons why certain classes have Dex as a primary stat and you are apparently plugging your ears and yelling because you don't want to be wrong. Please, you really do seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. Try to work with people here.

Baron Corm
2009-01-11, 09:30 PM
I'd think int is probably the best attribute, but that's just an opinion.

CHA and WIS are prime attributes. Why? Because they're both needed in casting spells. WIS the main attribute of the cleric and druid, CHA is the main attribute of the sorceror and bard.

Sneak Attack does not require DEX to perform. It requires being a rogue/assassin/ninja/etc.. Are you saying that rogues are utterly awesome?

You're making people misunderstand you. All you're saying is how much specific classes care about the attributes, not how good the attributes themselves are. Intelligence is definitely a lot worse than Dexterity in almost any combat situation, but you think it's the best because you think wizards are the best. I think you need to make that distinction.


Also, I'd say rogues do not wish to be the target of attacks aside from spells and conditions that require reflex saves. However it's impossible to predict, by sending a rogue to the front line that anything besides traps (which a rogue can no doubt handle) would spring up on him. Also, melee is ultimately better, despite AC penalties. There's a variety of melee abilities that can be performed without any feats needed. There's conditions that increase melee attack modifiers. Also, consider campaigns in which very few feats may be selected, so your rogue might only have one feat at first level unless your human. Human fighters might also stand as utterly awesome in these settings, with three feats at first level.

None of that applies to ranged, unless the enemy you target is prone in some way.

It's very hard to understand what you're trying to say here, but I think you're saying that ranged attacks are useless? Being ranged keeps you away from damage, as well as allowing you a greater selection of targets. Both things a rogue wants.

In any case, it is common also for a rogue to use Weapon Finesse with melee weapons. This is because rogues dual-wield for more sneak attack damage, and dual-wielding requires light weapons, which are finesseable. As has been said, the bonus damage from Strength pales in comparison to the bonus AC, Reflex, and initiative (initiative = sneak attacks) from Dexterity. Do most of the rogues you play with really use Strength?


I'm looking for a class that revolves around DEX.

I'm pretty sure you're looking for the rogue. Any melee class could use Dexterity over Strength, also, and you have plenty of reasons for this between all the posts. I would mention the monk, because they don't wear armor anyway, and at 38 Dexterity you officially have higher AC than any armor-wearer could have, but that might just lead to a random monkflame discussion. Hey, in NWN, Dex-based monks were the best class x)

But if you want to make ANOTHER Dexterity-centered class, make it have precision-based save-or-sucks (so you can say that the DC is 10 + 1/2 level + Dex bonus because it's based on accuracy), and make it wield light or ranged weapons (for reasons similar to a rogue's reasons).

Edit: Wow, poor imp_fireball. Didn't mean to hammer it in, I got my long rant ninja'd by more long rants.

BRC
2009-01-11, 09:49 PM
Question, if Dex isn't a Rogue's primary attribute, then what, exactly IS. It's not Str, as rouges get most of their damage from sneak attacks, it's not Int, as Rogues get plenty of skill points (INT isnt' a rogue dump stat, but it's hardly primary).

imp_fireball
2009-01-11, 10:02 PM
Forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but are you suggesting that rogues should be wearing heavy armor rather than light or medium? If that's the case, I'm afraid you shall find some disagreement on that front. If not, my reading skills must be failing me. :smallsmile:

I said, if your character was ORIGINALLY PROFICIENT with it. As in, that was his base proficiency. Bad wording, sorry 'bout that.

Heavy armor is better if you're a martial class. As for touch attacks, deflection bonuses work wonders.

Dex is great when you reach epic levels, but how many campaigns center around that sort of thing? Also, normally you'd want to take up the magic items that boost other stats first off. Also 38 dex = +14 dodge bonus to AC. Mithril fullplate has a max dex of 3, so if you had 16 dex and were wearing +5 enhancement bonus mithril fullplate, your AC modifier would be +16 when prepared, so one would need 16 dex modifier (42 DEX) to overcome this modifier. Also leather would be too heavy in that circumstance.

Even under the strange circumstance that your character obtains mithril padded armor +5, with a max DEX modifier of 10, his AC bonus would be virtually the same as full plate. And if you could wield a +5 heavy steel shield as a martial class, that would skyrocket things higher.

Finally, I'd like to mention that INT is pretty important for the rogue. What better way to maximize a skill monkey class then give them more skills? That's what a rogue is good for. Also leaves plenty of elbow room for all the other classes to invest in other things like augmenting martial prowess and just letting the rogue deal with all the skill based checks.

Night10194
2009-01-11, 10:11 PM
Hmmm...I think I see what he's getting at. It's not a question of what's the most useful stat in the game for all classes, but whether or not there's a class for whom a high dex is required to do all their stuff, similar to how a 19+ Int/Wis/Cha is required for a mage/cleric/sorcerer to get their highest class features (9th level spells). The question then becomes...is there a Con or Str based class like that? Not really. From what I've seen, only the casters really require a high stat to accomplish their full feature set as a class.

The problem is to-hit and not to be hit. A rogue isn't strictly enforced to be really good at dex or be unable to use Sneak Attack past a certain point, but a Rogue who is *excellent* at Dex, has Weapon Finesse and TWF, and thus makes up for their Medium attack bonus? He/she will kick ten times more butt than a Rogue who has 4 Sneak Attacks, but whiffs all of them due to penalties, medium attack bonus, etc. Thus, it's not strictly prohibited, but rather merely a very good idea for a Rogue to have high dex, just as it's possible to build a Fighter who focuses on Int, Wis, Cha...just probably not that wise.

Gorgondantess
2009-01-11, 10:51 PM
Ok, so you want a class that requires good dexterity? I don't see why rogues don't but after that I'd say swashbuckler. To gain any of the good class abilities, they have to be using a finesse weapon. Which requires dexterity. There ya go.

Heliomance
2009-01-12, 02:45 AM
I would note that armour does precisely nothing for your touch AC, whearas high dex does. And with Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, you don't need to worry about your flatfooted AC.

Innis Cabal
2009-01-12, 03:29 AM
You've ignored most of the important posts here Imp, all those pointing out how important Dex is for a rogue.

A few they missed and you mentioned. How do you think a Rogue gets better at disarming traps outside of skill points? Its a dex skill. The lower the Dex, the lower the chance to disarm that trap.

If the rogues in your games, or you yourself, don't max out dex for the rogue, thats alright. But it is vital, yes vital for a rogue. Intitative wins battles, even if you have improved init, thats still a +4 if you only have 10 dex. Betting alot of monsters get to go before your party rogue, and that is a no no.

Bandededed
2009-01-12, 04:26 AM
Heavy armor is better if you're a martial class. As for touch attacks, deflection bonuses work wonders.

If by martial you mean tanks, than yes. And how expensive are deflection bonuses again?


Dex is great when you reach epic levels

Or, you know, way before that for any of the archetypes mentioned by everyone else who is disagreeing with you.


Also, normally you'd want to take up the magic items that boost other stats first off.

Not if you were maximizing dex, and dropping, oh I don't know, the other five ability scores that you don't need to improve with magic items? Honestly, STR is no needed for a rogue, con doesn't need to be boosted (if it was decent to start with), and int, wis, and cha are only as needed as the skills you use. If you hate social encounters, you can dump cha, if you don't mind having only 8 sp / level, you can leave int alone at 10, and wis is important if and only if you want to be a scout. Or to sense motives.


Also 38 dex = +14 dodge bonus to AC. Mithril fullplate has a max dex of 3, so if you had 16 dex and were wearing +5 enhancement bonus mithril fullplate, your AC modifier would be +16 when prepared, so one would need 16 dex modifier (42 DEX) to overcome this modifier.

Yeah, and at this point the naked rogue is looking at the fully suited tank character and saying: "My AC is two less than yours, but I have and extra 35500 GP to spend on other stuff, 'cause I don't wear armor,"


Even under the strange circumstance that your character obtains mithril padded armor +5, with a max DEX modifier of 10, his AC bonus would be virtually the same as full plate.

Ok, you can't make something not metal mithril, though I suspect you know that. And, if you haven't pleaded with your DM for clothes to be enchanted as armor, with your 38 dex, I pity you.


And if you could wield a +5 heavy steel shield as a martial class, that would skyrocket things higher.

And a rogue can add a +5 buckler and still only lose 1 point of shield bonus to AC. Then he can use his extra cash from not wearing armor to by bracers of armor and laugh as his AC caps the fighters.

thubby
2009-01-12, 04:46 AM
go over to wotc's character optimization boards and ask them to make you a lvl 5 version 3.5 rogue with standard starting gold, make it core only if you like.
you'd be amazed.

if you actually consider the skills you take and use as a rogue, dexterity provides comparable if not more of a total effective skill level as intelligence.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 04:53 AM
Hmmm...I think I see what he's getting at. It's not a question of what's the most useful stat in the game for all classes, but whether or not there's a class for whom a high dex is required to do all their stuff, similar to how a 19+ Int/Wis/Cha is required for a mage/cleric/sorcerer to get their highest class features (9th level spells).

I concur; that seems to be what he's driving for.

And there's no correlation between how highly a stat is regarded and whether or not it is essential to have a specified amount of that stat to pull off your best tricks.

The primary reason that they wouldn't do it is that Dexterity is a powerful stat all on its own. Initiative, AC and Reflex bonuses, plus ranged attack bonus and boosts to a cadre of valuable skills, mean that a class permitted to focus on Dexterity to the exclusion of everything else would have far too many advantages compared to a class built around Int, Wis or Cha.

As has been said, Dexterity is essential for rogues to do their job. It's just that their abilities aren't mandated by how much Dexterity you have, but rather boosted based on it.

Requiring a set ability score to accomplish your class features is not good class design. Wizards et. al had it grandfathered in, and had some fair logic behind it. They also achieve pretty decent power levels regardless, and the designers didn't want it to be as easy as dumping every ability bonus into Dex and Con, which is why they required that a fully-trained wizard prop up his Int.

Draz74
2009-01-12, 02:29 PM
The OP has a point that it is *possible* to build a decent Rogue without good Dex. Especially if your Rogue isn't the skulking thief stereotype. (Though, unless you multiclass or spend precious feats on armor proficiency, AC is going to be a problem for any low-Dex Rogue, even if everything else about him is fine.)

But "archer," even if it's not a class, is a pretty strong archetype. Heck, we can even look at the Archery Track Ranger and call it a class, or a sub-class. And archers definitely have Dex as their "key ability score." Even if you ignore the whole accuracy thing (e.g. via Zen Archery), look at these feat prerequisites:

Improved Precise Shot: Dex 19
Rapid Shot: Dex 13
Manyshot: Dex 17

Ok, so technically the aforementioned Ranger gets those all as bonus feats anyway. But he still *needs* Dex for accuracy and AC.

Plus, as others have mentioned, even without being a class's "key ability," Dex is the least-often "dumped" ability score by all classes, except maybe Con.

Also, it may not be core, but whoever said Swashbuckler is pretty impossible to build without good Dex is correct, and that's not a homebrew class.

Hawriel
2009-01-12, 03:20 PM
This thread is making me think about a rogue based on str int and wis. At least two of the three. Yes I can see this. The big guy who seems like a dumb cluts but is the smartest guy in the room. Who can brake your neck just as easily as conning you out of your mony. Hmm Imp graple + sneak attack = broken neck. Out come I have your mony, and no blood on my shirt.

Oh Imp, you can't have armor thats made from more than one special material. Its eather mithril, adamantine, or dark wood. Not all of them. Weapons are different, but only slightly so. You can have a dark wood hafted spear with an admantine tip.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 03:45 PM
Check out the Thug fighter variant. Exchanges fighter bonus feats for full sneak attack, making him close to a Str-based thief.

imp_fireball
2009-01-16, 09:46 PM
However, the thug is sloppy. It offers a few more skills which are miniscule compared to the rogue, and the severe lack of bonus feats is a major turn off.

Anyway, no I didn't miss the points you made about rogues absolutely needing DEX. I'm saying that it isn't a PRIME ATTRIBUTE.

In any case, I'm lead to believe that it was initially due to rogues only being proficient to light armor that caused an elevation towards DEX. DEX doesn't help attacks unless you burn a feat. It's great for staying alive with the fighters and barbarians but not for front line work.

afroakuma
2009-01-16, 09:51 PM
It's pretty prime for ranged attacks.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-16, 09:52 PM
"Gain Weapon Finesse, loose 3rd level feat choice" might as well be a rogue class feature ...

Xyk
2009-01-16, 10:12 PM
Can you please define "PRIME ATTRIBUTE"?

I, like most here, see it as "the most important attribute for a class", which Dex definitely is for rogues.

Lappy9000
2009-01-16, 10:56 PM
In any case, I'm lead to believe that it was initially due to rogues only being proficient to light armor that caused an elevation towards DEX. DEX doesn't help attacks unless you burn a feat. It's great for staying alive with the fighters and barbarians but not for front line work.
Yes, you really should give us your definition of a "Prime Attribute." Avoiding attacks for fighters and barbarians normally is front line work. Besides, most people would consider it worth a feat to get more benefits from a single ability score (ie. Weapon Finness).

Realms of Chaos
2009-01-17, 12:54 AM
As far as I can tell, the desired definition of primary attribute is as follows (this may not be the real definition but this will serve fine as a working definition).

Primary Attribute: an ability score that a base class or prestige class requires in order to utilize one or more class features. Getting less milage out of a class feature due to a low ability score does not count for this purpose unless the feature's power explicitely states that it relies upon an ability score for one or more purposes. Similarly, prerequisite feats for prestige classes that require ability scores do not make that ability score a primary attribute for the prestige class.

To be clear, this is not the normal definition that I have in my head. However, this seems to be what the poster wanted to communicate.

As far as I can tell, no. Strength and Dexterity are the only ability scores that never act as primary attributes. They never increase the Save DC of special abilities, no class in existance (that I know of) gives you additional uses for your Strength or Dexterity score (although several, like the barbarian and rogue, respectively, take advantage of many pre-existing uses of these abilities).
We all know that wisdom, intelligence, and charisma are widely used for such things and that constitution has been used for incarnum but strength and dexterity have simply never come up.

I don't know, maybe there's a prestige class somewhere that let's you add your dexterity modifier to damage in place of your strength score or something. It is safe to say, however, that there is no alternate magic system that explicitely uses dexterity as its main ability score.

Edit: the question posed to us, rather than whether or not such a system existed, was whether or not we considered it to be feasible. As dexterity already has so many functions, giving it another one is a bit of a risk. Mechanically, it would probably be some sort of teleportation-based class if it did exist.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-17, 01:05 AM
A definition for 'prime attribute' is going to be essential. If you mean a class that explicitly has, say, the save DCs of its abilities dependent on DEX, there isn't one.

In the meantime, though, howbout a Dex-dependent build?

A Human Rogue 1/Fighter 2/Swordsage 1/Rogue 2-6 with the following feats:

1st - Point Blank Shot
Human - Rapid Reload
Fighter - Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)
Fighter - Weapon Finesse
3rd - Crossbow Sniper
6th - Shadow Blade
9th - Dead Eye

His only required piece of equipment is a Feycraft Shortsword with appropriate bonuses.

At Level 9, he uses his DEX on both melee and ranged attack rolls, adds his adds twice his DEX to damage with his Feycrafted Shortsword, adds 1.5x his DEX to ranged attacks with Light Crossbows, and can make Sneak Attacks with his Crossbow out to 60ft.

Champion of Corellan Larenthian adds your Dex to damage as well, but only with specific weapons (none of which are Shadow Hand weapons), plus it has ridiculous feat requirements, all of which are useless for this build. If you don't like ToB, however, it is an alternative, it just requires you go straight Fighter for the BAB and feat requirements as soon as possible.

Kroy
2009-01-17, 01:08 AM
However, the thug is sloppy. It offers a few more skills which are miniscule compared to the rogue, and the severe lack of bonus feats is a major turn off.

Anyway, no I didn't miss the points you made about rogues absolutely needing DEX. I'm saying that it isn't a PRIME ATTRIBUTE.

In any case, I'm lead to believe that it was initially due to rogues only being proficient to light armor that caused an elevation towards DEX. DEX doesn't help attacks unless you burn a feat. It's great for staying alive with the fighters and barbarians but not for front line work.

So, what are rogue's prime ability if not Dex?

Mando Knight
2009-01-17, 01:47 AM
Define Prime Attribute. If "Prime Attribute" is the stat that a character wants to focus on and make the highest stat, then Dexterity is a pretty prime attribute for Rogues.

Reasons why a Rogue should consider Dexterity to be the primary attribute:
1. Reflex saves. Evasion isn't going to do you much good if you can't make the save reliably.
2. Ranged and finesse attacks. To-hit is always important, and since most Rogue damage comes from Sneak Attack anyway, taking Finesse and not pumping Strength isn't going to hurt you in the long run. Short-range sniper shots are an easy way to gain a Sneak Attack when you don't have your opponent flanked.
3. Skill checks. Tumble, Balance, Sleight of Hand, Disable Device... all of these require Dexterity to function properly.

Reasons why a Rogue should not consider heavy armor, even if he multiclasses into Fighter:
1. Maximum Dexterity bonus. This applies to not only AC, but also to all Dex-based attack rolls, Reflex saves, and skill checks. Full-plate may offer more AC, but the Lich back there doesn't care about your AC... and red dragons think your armor is a nice little foil wrapping, letting him bake you like a potato.
2. Skill check penalty. You need to be able to avoid AoOs when maneuvering around your opponent, and your Tumble check isn't going to cut it if you are taking a nasty check penalty on top of your limited maximum Dexterity. If your allies need you to sneak into the enemy fortress and steal the MacGuffin and get out quietly... that's three skills right there that take a penalty, four if there's a trap that needs dismantling.
3. Movement penalty. You want to be able to maneuver around such that you're always in a flanking position and have Sneak Attack damage. Not going to happen if the opponent's far enough away that you can't reach him and flank him in the same turn.

Thus, the Rogue is best off in lighter armor, as a Mithral Chain Shirt has no penalties at all, and a +7 Maximum Dexterity bonus... enough to make sure you're never impeded by your armor even with a nice +Dex item. And how does the Rogue maximize his AC in the light armor that he's wearing to allow maximum agility? Dexterity. And hey! It even provides extra bonuses on the Rogue's favorite abilities!

imp_fireball
2009-01-17, 10:40 PM
DEX is absolutely awesome in most situations, sure. But what if the setting involved firearms (based off some rule I discovered from someone else on WoTC; with some added flare, such as reload times, weapon types, and mishap, it works pretty well and logically):

For Firearms:

Only 1/2 dex modifier added to AC (you can duck and cover but you can't dodge bullets).

Dodge does work, but like dex only 1/2.

Rules 1 and 2 should apply at distances of mid and long range to the shooter. At short range the dodger is considered to see the firearm and be prepared to make themselves more difficult to target (rolling and tumbling or simply moving intricately).

Light armor should not add its bonus to AC against bullets (unless made bulletproof, perhaps for 250 gold? Or gold equivalent to the level of technology provided in the setting at GM discretion). Metal armor can also be made bulletproof (or perhaps more bulletproof with 45 degree slants in the plate and crafting), while at the same cost as light armor, is proportionately cheaper to do so.

The rule is excellent because it makes midline classes such as rogues even worse off for wear compared to front liners.

Early guns should be simple weapons, but with slow reloading times and high damage to do slow bullet, shock, and caliber (a blunderbuss = 3d10 short, 2d10 mid, and 1d10 long range).
-----------

So perhaps in this sort of a setting, you might want to brew up some new classes that make better use of DEX in a different way then how other classes might. Heavy armor is still useful in this setting (since it still deflects bullets), but DEX (while still applying the same as always in all its brilliance) is worse off for wear.

Additionally, early firearms are high-caliber and 'slow' compared to more modern versions, ultimately proving to deal more damage. A skilled shooter who dumped plenty of feats into their weapon(s) could pop a rogue in one go, and unless there were some special rule for reflex saves, the rogue (or midline character with a high DEX such as the skinny light-armor wearing finesse fighter that dumped points into DEX rather then the attribute that allowed him to roll with the blows being CON) would be helpless.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-17, 10:49 PM
DEX is absolutely awesome in most situations, sure. But what if the setting involved firearms (based off some rule I discovered from someone else on WoTC; with some added flare, such as reload times, weapon types, and mishap, it works pretty well and logically).

Sorry to intrude in this discussion, but I would like to point out that you were just asked how you define primary attribute. You did not. Also, most D&D settings do not use firearms. Of course you could have them, but hell, then bullets would pierce through all nonmagical armor so being able to dodge them seems all the more important. That aside (I am not here to argue crunch details), I don't think you can argue Dex is unimportant based on an alternative (read: noncore) set of available weapons. Any serious change in technology level, culture, or game rules will affect the importance and use of abilities. Just saying, interesting example to be discussed, but it does not seem to defend your main point here (since you did not until now mention such noncore rules, and core is, I believe, what is usually assumed).

EDIT: OK, so I've been informed that there may in fact be firearms in the 3.5 DM's guide (in my 3.0 one, I know there are laser weapons too) so they are technically core (bad terminology on my part). My point about few people using them so them usually not being an issue at all, however, stands.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-17, 11:06 PM
Agreed. If you want to discuss firearms rules, that's a very interesting topic that needs its own thread. Right now we're still curious as to what you consider a "Prime Attribute', so that we can try to find a class that meets your needs.

Neek
2009-01-17, 11:26 PM
Agreed. If you want to discuss firearms rules, that's a very interesting topic that needs its own thread. Right now we're still curious as to what you consider a "Prime Attribute', so that we can try to find a class that meets your needs.

I'm curious as hell, because Dexterity is a very important statistic.
It affects your Reflex save.
It's a modifier to your armor class.
It's used for ranged attacks.
It effects 9 of 36 skills (Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope)--that's 1/4 of all the skills available! (If you count Speak Language)

On the other hand, what about Strength?
It's used for your melee attack rolls and damage rolls.
It effects two skills (Climb and Swim).
It is used to determine your max weight loads (but whoever keeps up with that?) It's in a far worse position: Few skills rely on it, no saves rely on it.

Constitution?
It affects your Fortitude save.
Its modifier is added to your hit points per level.
It has one skill: Concentration.
It affects various conditions, such as holding your breath or dying of hunger. A figure that's not even recorded on your character sheet! So yeah, Constitution might be worse off... but there's more!

Intelligence:
affects the number of languages you start out with.
Has 9 skills (Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft)--again, another quarter of the skills.
If you're a wizard, it's good for you.

Wisdom:
It affects your Will save.
It has 6 skills (Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival).
If you're a cleric, it tastes like chicken (or imitation chicken, if you're a vegan cleric).

Charisma:
It affects 8 skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magical Device).
If you're a sorcerer, yippee. Your lovable personality really helps casting those fireballs.

Dexterity is more a stat than Constitution, Intelligence, or Charisma, because they contribute to no saving throws. Dexterity is more a stat than Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma because it has combat effectiveness. Dexterity is more a stat because I gave it four bullets.

How now, brown cow?

Ricky S
2009-01-17, 11:40 PM
Ok for the sake of this argument look at this character. Without Dex it would ****e and its attack also be ****e. With Dex 28 it does 1d3 + 9 damage per round (weapon Finesse anyone) which is fairly decent amount of damage for a 5 level rogue without sneak attack, so tell me this isnt a prime attribute for attacking hitting and armour class. If this has already been said forgive me but I am in a hurry.


CG Mousefol Rogue
Movement 20ft

Str 8 -1
Dex 28 +9
Con 10
Int 14 +2
Wis 8 -1
Cha 6 -2

AC 25

Attack
Rapier 1d3 +9

Feats (*denotes rogue feats)
Weapon Finesse
Dodge
*Evasion
*Trap Sense
*uncanny Dodge

Skills (including ability modifier)
Hide 29
Move Silently 17
Open Lock 17
Balance 17
Sleight of Hand 17
Jump 7
Climb 7
Forgery 10
Tumble 17
Use Rope 17

Languages
Common mousefolk halfling elven

Items
Permanencied cats grace
gloves of dex
rapier
Ring of frost
dueling cloak

weight carried 2lbs

Neek
2009-01-17, 11:44 PM
You do realize that Weapon Finesse does not apply to damage rolls, only attack rolls, right?

snoopy13a
2009-01-18, 12:11 AM
I'd define "prime attribute" as the character's highest attribute score. If the character's highest value is dexterity then that would be the prime attribute.

imp_fireball
2009-01-18, 12:14 AM
Unless you include improved weapon finesse, which appears rather high in the level racket.

To me, prime attribute is an attribute that supports the character's prime use. Dodging isn't a rogue's prime use. Nor is it sneaking about or hiding for that matter. It's to do with skills in general, so I'd say it's split even across DEX and INT.

The Neoclassic
2009-01-18, 12:16 AM
Unless you include improved weapon finesse, which appears rather high in the level racket.

Yes, but he listed his feats and that wasn't on there. Hence, I'm going to have to call moot point. After all, that is a separate feat from Weapon Finesse.

Neek
2009-01-18, 12:22 AM
The original poster has in no way reconciled his point by any measure. I for one, call shenanigans. Gentleman, gentle ladies, fetch your brooms.

Mando Knight
2009-01-18, 01:55 AM
To me, prime attribute is an attribute that supports the character's prime use. Dodging isn't a rogue's prime use. Nor is it sneaking about or hiding for that matter. It's to do with skills in general, so I'd say it's split even across DEX and INT.

Wait, what? Skills in general are the Rogue's main purpose? *Looks at skill list* No, sneaking about, theft, and mobility are a good chunk of the skill set. Its class abilities also invoke those three things. Sneaking about? Sneak Attack. Mobility and dodginess? Evasion, Uncanny Dodge. Theft? Trap finding--you can't be an effective thief if you can't see the traps that were placed to defend what you're taking.

...and in the last sentence, you're flat-out contradicting yourself.

Knaight
2009-01-18, 01:59 AM
To me, prime attribute is an attribute that supports the character's prime use. Dodging isn't a rogue's prime use. Nor is it sneaking about or hiding for that matter. It's to do with skills in general, so I'd say it's split even across DEX and INT.

Combat is also the rogues primary use, hence sneak attack as the huge class feature that it is, and stuff like evasion. The expert NPC class is the primary skills in general class. Given that a rogue will almost definitely be using weapon finesse, and need AC to dodge, Dexterity is the most important attribute for combat. As for a characters(not a classes) primary use, for a swashbuckler or archer type Dexterity is most important.

Reluctance
2009-01-18, 02:33 AM
If I'm reading imp_fireball right, he's looking for classes/builds that can go as SAD dex as a fighter-type could go straight out str or a caster could go straight out casting stat.

And while I'm hard pressed to think of builds that can dump everything else to feed dex, my response is "so?" Is your game really lacking for SAD dex- and con- based classes,or is this just an exercise in grid-filling?

Ricky S
2009-01-18, 06:43 PM
But isnt the whole point of a rigue to be a skill monkey and provide secondary combat when your tank and spellcaster fail to kill something. In my experience the rogue in my party was generally just a RPer who coered npc's bluffed or would sneak around stealing stuff and opening locks. sure he attacked but the damage compared to say our tank, or wizard was pretty minimal. But back to the main point isnt your prime attribute the one which you are highest in regardless of whether it provides damage or something else? Ie dwarf barbarian with 20 con would be classified as as having con as his highest attribute.

Lappy9000
2009-01-18, 07:04 PM
I gave it thought, and it's apparent that DEX isn't all that regarded as a stat. On that note, neither is CON, although it is regarded with some necessity among frontline classes as well as the wizard/sorceror for more of a point dumper. DEX isn't a necessary attribute for any of the core classes to function.

On this note, would it be plausible for anyone to homebrew up some classes that absolutely need DEX? Perhaps a martial class that merges DEX and STR and a caster that merges DEX and some other attribute? For the latter, I might have saw a dancer type somewhere, but it's probably lost.

Ah well, nonetheless... ideas?
Ah, I finally see what you're talking about. No, there aren't any classes that I know of that are absolutely crippled without Dexterity. However, many, many classes rely on Dexterity to excel, and even be remotely functional. Keep in mind that Dexterity certainly does get plenty of love.

I am curious, though, why do you want to find/make a class completely dependent on Dexterity?

Heliomance
2009-01-18, 08:46 PM
1. Maximum Dexterity bonus. This applies to not only AC, but also to all Dex-based attack rolls, Reflex saves, and skill checks. Full-plate may offer more AC, but the Lich back there doesn't care about your AC... and red dragons think your armor is a nice little foil wrapping, letting him bake you like a potato.

Incorrect. Max dex explicitly applies only to AC.

Mando Knight
2009-01-18, 10:04 PM
Incorrect. Max dex explicitly applies only to AC.

:smallredface: Ah. Right. I had been remembering what seemed to happen in KOTOR... (blasted Canderous, preferring ranged weapons but lacking any appreciable Dex bonus... :smallannoyed:)