[3.5] Best 1st level spells (any class/source).

[Myou]

Can anyone suggest some of the best 1st level spells? I'm planning a homebrew game with just one or two players and the DM is letting my character cast spells from any lists (and published sources) he wants. While the characters are homebrew, the spells need to be real.


Edit;
I'm allowed 19 1st level spells.

So far my chioces are as follows;

1. Benign Transposition
2. Charm Person
3. Colour Spray
4. Endure Elements
5. Enlarge Person
6. Expeditious Retreat
7. Fist of stone
8. Grease
9. Lesser Orb of Acid
10. Lesser Restoration
11. Mage Armour
12. Magic Missile
13. Nerveskitter
14. Power word Pain
15. Ray of Enfeeblement
16. Remove Scent
17. Shield
18. Silent Image
19. Ventriloquism

[Assassin89]

Magic missile

[Adumbration]

From what spell lists? Sorceror/wizard? Cleric? Druid?

EDIT: Ah, my bad.

[Myou]

Adumbration: Didn't you read my first post? I thought it was relatively clear. ^^;

Assassin 89: Yeah, I'm certainly going to get that one.

[Adumbration]

Color Spray
Aspect of the Wolf (Spell compedium)
Fist of Stone (CArc)
Orb of X, lesser line

[Shikton]

Sleep and grease.

[Kurald Galain]

Thunderwave.

[only1doug]

Powerword Pain (races of the dragon)

[Myou]

Thank you to everyone who's posted so far!


Thunderwave.

Where is that one from? I don't think I've heard of it.

[mostlyharmful]

Glibness (SpC)
Lesser Vigor (likewise)
Charm Person (core)
Grease, Colour spray, sleep, reduce person, enlarge person, Ray of Enfeeblement (really cores got most of the best)


PS. on the whole magic missle is pretty missable, it does direct damage ok but there's almost always better things to do with your action and your spell slot

[Myou]

Glibness (SpC)
Lesser Vigor (likewise)
Charm Person (core)
Grease, Colour spray, sleep, reduce person, enlarge person, Ray of Enfeeblement (really cores got most of the best)


PS. on the whole magic missle is pretty missable, it does direct damage ok but there's almost always better things to do with your action and your spell slot
Thanks for the tips.

Luckly I get plenty of starting spells, so I can afford it. ^^

[WinterSolstice]

Thank you to everyone who's posted so far!



Where is that one from? I don't think I've heard of it.

Thunderwave is a 4E at-will spell

[1of3]

Where is that one from? I don't think I've heard of it.

It's 4th Edition.

Naming it here was probably a friendly reminder that writing something like "[3.x]" in the title would have been polite.

Therefore I'd like to add: Scorching Burst!

[KKL]

Thunderwave.

While we're doing this...

Grasping Shadows. Illusory Ambush.

[Curmudgeon]

Sniper's Shot lets any ranged attacks be capable of sneak attack, regardless of distance.

[WinterSolstice]

Grasping Shadows.

seconded (now for Dailies lol)

[Myou]

It's 4th Edition.

Naming it here was probably a friendly reminder that writing something like "[3.x]" in the title would have been polite.

Therefore I'd like to add: Scorching Burst!

Oops! Ok, I corrected that. ^^;


Sniper's Shot lets any ranged attacks be capable of sneak attack, regardless of distance.

Is that a 4E spell?

[Llama231]

True strike?

[Spiryt]

Oops! Ok, I corrected that. ^^;

Is that a 4E spell?

No, it's a 3.5, assassin and ranger spell, I believe.

[BobVosh]

Web
Grease
Sleep
Glibness

With these spells you win D&D.

[Keld Denar]

Grease (Wiz1, PHB)
Color Spray (Wiz1, PHB)
Benign Transposition (Wiz1, SC)
Bloodwind (Wiz1, SC)
Lesser Vigor (Clr/Drd1, SC)
Protection from Evil (Wiz/Clr/Pal/Brd 1, PHB)
Lesser Acid Orb (Wiz1, SC)
Rhino's Rush (Pal1, SC)
Ectoplasmic Armor (Wiz1, ??) (+9 AC vs Incorp Touch!)
Inspirational Boost (Brd1, SC) (only if you have Bardic Music)
Enlarge Person (Wiz1, PHB)
Lesser Restoration (Pal1, PHB)

NOT
Magic Missile

EDIT:

Web
Glibness


Not 1st level spells. Although they do win, and hard!

[Bayar]

Fist of Stone.
True Strike.
Arrow Mind.
Cure Light Wounds.
Aspect of the Wolf.
Enlarge Person.
Orb of Sonic, lesser.

[Myou]

No, it's a 3.5, assassin and ranger spell, I believe.

Hmmm, does anyone know the source? It's not listed in the SRD.


Grease (Wiz1, PHB)
Color Spray (Wiz1, PHB)
Benign Transposition (Wiz1, SC)
Bloodwind (Wiz1, SC)
Lesser Vigor (Clr/Drd1, SC)
Protection from Evil (Wiz/Clr/Pal/Brd 1, PHB)
Lesser Acid Orb (Wiz1, SC)
Rhino's Rush (Pal1, SC)
Ectoplasmic Armor (Wiz1, ??) (+9 AC vs Incorp Touch!)
Inspirational Boost (Brd1, SC) (only if you have Bardic Music)
Enlarge Person (Wiz1, PHB)
Lesser Restoration (Pal1, PHB)

NOT
Magic Missile

EDIT:


Not 1st level spells. Although they do win, and hard!

Thanks for a comprehensive list!

As I understand it, MM becomes good at higher levels, even if lesser orbs are better at lower levels, is that right?

And thanks for clearing up Glibness, I knew I'd seen it before but couldn't find it in the list of 1st level spells. Now I know why.


Fist of Stone.
True Strike.
Arrow Mind.
Cure Light Wounds.
Aspect of the Wolf.
Enlarge Person.
Orb of Sonic, lesser.

Thanks for the advice. ^^

[Curmudgeon]

No, it's a 3.5, assassin and ranger spell, I believe. Also Sorcerer/Wizard; all of these are 1st level.

[Flickerdart]

No, Magic Missile scales very poorly with anything else you can do with your Standard actions.

[Keld Denar]

Magic Missile is only a little good if you combine Incantrix, Force Missile Mage, and then stack a metric ****-ton of metamagic on it. And then there are really better things you should be doing with your spells and time. The only time MM would be good at all is if you run into a Shadow or other low CR incorporial undead before your party really has the equipement to deal with it. And then, you'd probably not be prepared for it regardless.

[Saph]

The only time MM would be good at all is if you run into a Shadow or other low CR incorporial undead before your party really has the equipement to deal with it.

I wouldn't say that. When an opponent's been knocked down to 10% or 20% of their HP, Magic Missile is a good economical way to finish off the battle. Now, starting combat with a Magic Missile is just silly.

- Saph

[Keld Denar]

I wouldn't say that. When an opponent's been knocked down to 10% or 20% of their HP, Magic Missile is a good economical way to finish off the battle. Now, starting combat with a Magic Missile is just silly.

- Saph

If the enemy is already that low, you've probably already done something right by sufficiently disabling/inconveniencing them, and that 10-20% damage is likely no more than 1 solid whack from your allies. Unless you are the only person standing, you are probably even better off at that point just shooting a crossbow, or setting the tea pot on for some after battle refreshments while your allies mop up. I hear Prestidigitation can create a mean Breelish Breakfast tea.

[Bayar]

Fel Drain Magic Missile ? :cool:

[Myou]

On the subject of the MM debate; I don't know what to think now. :o

My current choices are in my first post now; if anyone has any advice or comment please post. ^^


Also Sorcerer/Wizard; all of these are 1st level.

What's the source for Sniper's Shot?

[Blood_Lord]

Other choices:

Haste/Protection from Energy/Clairvoyance-audiance/arcane sight/gaseous form.

All from the Trapsmith spell list. Dungeonscape.

EDIT: Sniper's Shot is SpC.

[wumpus]

At low levels, wand of magic missiles is the wizard's machine gun.

at 2nd level, WBL=900, cost of wand=750 (don't expect most DMs to hand out enough treasure in gp). Wizard can now use 10 shots per encounter, and begin overshadowing the party (yes Batman, he will do it while being a blaster mage).

at 3rd level, WBL=2700 (minus at least 750), Our wizard has a much easier time coughing up for his wand, but it doesn't have quite the effect on slightly tougher monsters.

Don't expect it to scale, but at lower levels it can be effective than the (justifiably) legendary wand of cure light wounds (or lesser vigor). Much of this also assumes that the DM lets the players munchkin out (standard procedure for web comparisions).

[Eldariel]

Much of this also assumes that the DM lets the players munchkin out (standard procedure for web comparisions).

What does this even mean?

[Adumbration]

Myou, I could be wrong, but what you've listed so far are all Sorcerer/Wizard spells. Are you only looking for those? I also see a notable lack of healing spells.

Non-wizard spell suggestions:
- Lesser Vigor
- Summon Nature's Ally I
- Entangle

[kjones]

In defense of Magic Missile, it can be very effective against enemy spellcasters when used as a readied action to disrupt a spell. Let's say both you and the enemy are 5th level, and you ready an action to hit him with Magic Missile when he casts a spell.
He does, so you let loose, dealing an average of 3d4+3 = 10.5 damage. He then must make a DC 20 Concentration check or lose the spell. Given max ranks and a +1 Con bonus, he needs to roll an 11, so you've got a 55% chance of disrupting his spell.

...ok, not great, but not bad for a 1st level spell, and it's saved my ass plenty of times. Besides, if he's a wizard, at that point he'll probably be down to 8 HP or so - easy pickin's.

There are lots of situations in which having an automatic hit is very, very useful.

[Keld Denar]

In defense of Magic Missile, it can be very effective against enemy spellcasters when used as a readied action to disrupt a spell. Let's say both you and the enemy are 5th level, and you ready an action to hit him with Magic Missile when he casts a spell.
He does, so you let loose, dealing an average of 3d4+3 = 10.5 damage. He then must make a DC 20 Concentration check or lose the spell. Given max ranks and a +1 Con bonus, he needs to roll an 11, so you've got a 55% chance of disrupting his spell.


Compared to a Scorching Ray (2nd level spell) for 4d6, average 14, causing a DC 24 + spell level concentration check, which has a 20% greater chance of failing than your MM. Granted, its a 2nd level spell, compared to MM's 1st, but if you are really trying to mess someone up, why use a 1st level spell? Thats just bad tactics. Even Lesser Acid Orb at 5th level hits for 3d8, average 13.5, just a half point behind Scorching Ray, and does come from the 1st level group. Great for messin up Clerics who are trying to cast spells, because they tend to have a touch AC of about 10-11 at that level.

Sniper Shot is in Spell Compendium

Also, Ray of Clumsiness (Wiz1, SpC) is Ray of Enfeeblements 2nd cousin from a previous marriage. Great spell to preceed a nasty reflex save based spell, like Bands of Steel.

[Myou]

Other choices:

Haste/Protection from Energy/Clairvoyance-audiance/arcane sight/gaseous form.

All from the Trapsmith spell list. Dungeonscape.

EDIT: Sniper's Shot is SpC.

Ooh, high level spells at a low level price! :3


Myou, I could be wrong, but what you've listed so far are all Sorcerer/Wizard spells. Are you only looking for those? I also see a notable lack of healing spells.

Non-wizard spell suggestions:
- Lesser Vigor
- Summon Nature's Ally I
- Entangle

A lot are, but not all. I'm looking for spells of all classes. Thanks for the suggestions!

[kjones]

Compared to a Scorching Ray (2nd level spell) for 4d6, average 14, causing a DC 24 + spell level concentration check, which has a 20% greater chance of failing than your MM. Granted, its a 2nd level spell, compared to MM's 1st, but if you are really trying to mess someone up, why use a 1st level spell? Thats just bad tactics. Even Lesser Acid Orb at 5th level hits for 3d8, average 13.5, just a half point behind Scorching Ray, and does come from the 1st level group. Great for messin up Clerics who are trying to cast spells, because they tend to have a touch AC of about 10-11 at that level.

Sniper Shot is in Spell Compendium

Also, Ray of Clumsiness (Wiz1, SpC) is Ray of Enfeeblements 2nd cousin from a previous marriage. Great spell to preceed a nasty reflex save based spell, like Bands of Steel.

I know you mentioned this, but those both have attack rolls. Since they're touch attacks, this probably won't matter, but sometimes it might... what if they have concealment (very common for wizards)? What if they're in melee? What if they somehow have a high touch AC?

So sometimes, one spell is better, and sometimes another one is. I'm just saying, don't be so quick to write off Magic Missile.

EDIT:


Other choices:

Haste/Protection from Energy/Clairvoyance-audiance/arcane sight/gaseous form.

All from the Trapsmith spell list. Dungeonscape.

EDIT: Sniper's Shot is SpC.


That's seriously cheesy. Obviously, those aren't spells you should have access to at 1st level, since Trapsmith is a PrC (which you couldn't get anywhere near 1st level).

[Blood_Lord]

I know you mentioned this, but those both have attack rolls. Since they're touch attacks, this probably won't matter, but sometimes it might... what if they have concealment (very common for wizards)? What if they're in melee? What if they somehow have a high touch AC?

So sometimes, one spell is better, and sometimes another one is. I'm just saying, don't be so quick to write off Magic Missile.

EDIT:
That's seriously cheesy. Obviously, those aren't spells you should have access to at 1st level, since Trapsmith is a PrC (which you couldn't get anywhere near 1st level).

1) He asked, I answered. I let other people determine the cheese level of their games.

2) MM: What if you have Fireball? That negates pretty much all of the MM advantages. The point is that you shouldn't be using first level spells to disrupt, since you are better off using something better.

Oh, and by the way: what if he has total concealment, and you can't cast MM? What if he has the Shield spell cast? Why not ready an action for Fireball, do more damage, force a higher check, and hit some of his allies?

[Myou]

1) He asked, I answered. I let other people determine the cheese level of their games.

2) MM: What if you have Fireball? That negates pretty much all of the MM advantages. The point is that you shouldn't be using first level spells to disrupt, since you are better off using something better.

Oh, and by the way: what if he has total concealment, and you can't cast MM? What if he has the Shield spell cast? Why not ready an action for Fireball, do more damage, force a higher check, and hit some of his allies?

I appreciate the help. Having looked closely at the spells I'm still considering whether I'll take any of them, but I'll probably wait and just take them later. But I am very tempted to replace MM with Arcane Sight.

[Keld Denar]

But I am very tempted to replace MM with Arcane Sight.

Isn't Arcane Sight a 2nd level spell?

[kjones]

1) He asked, I answered. I let other people determine the cheese level of their games.

2) MM: What if you have Fireball? That negates pretty much all of the MM advantages. The point is that you shouldn't be using first level spells to disrupt, since you are better off using something better.

Oh, and by the way: what if he has total concealment, and you can't cast MM? What if he has the Shield spell cast? Why not ready an action for Fireball, do more damage, force a higher check, and hit some of his allies?

Many things are immune to fire damage - few things are immune to force. There are times when you don't want to blast a 20-foot radius, like if he's right up next to your allies. You usually have more 1st level spells than 3rd level ones.

We could keep going back and forth. All I'm saying is, sometimes Fireball will be the right choice, and sometimes it will be Magic Missile. Don't write it off so quickly.

EDIT: Why use Fireball when you could cast Meteor Swarm? See what I mean?

[Myou]

Isn't Arcane Sight a 2nd level spell?

On the Trapsmith spell list it's just level 1. But it's a bit too cheezy to take it from a PrC I can't even qualify for. xD

[Eldariel]

Divine Favor
Protection from Alignment
Shillelagh
Produce Flame
Entangle
Lesser Vigor [SpC]

Out of those, I'd find a way to include at least Lesser Vigor, and probably Protection from Alignment (provided that you can get all 4 with one slot).

[Myou]

Divine Favor
Protection from Alignment
Shillelagh
Produce Flame
Entangle
Lesser Vigor [SpC]

Out of those, I'd find a way to include at least Lesser Vigor, and probably Protection from Alignment (provided that you can get all 4 with one slot).

Don't you have to take the Protection from X spells individually?

[Eldariel]

Technically, but since the effects are identical, it's clear enough to consider them one spell. Also, in a normal campaign, Protection from Evil is enough (as long as your party is non-evil).

[Myou]

Technically, but since the effects are identical, it's clear enough to consider them one spell. Also, in a normal campaign, Protection from Evil is enough (as long as your party is non-evil).

Gah, it's so hard to choose between all the ueful spells. I want to take PfE, but what to drop?

I might wait until level 2 to get it.

[Eldariel]

Well, I think it's better than Remove Scent. Also, I don't think you need Magic Missile just yet, especially with the array of offensive abilities you already have (most notably Lesser Orb of Acid). Also, level 1 Shield is pretty sad so I'd just skip it and wait a bit to pick it up.

[Blood_Lord]

Many things are immune to fire damage - few things are immune to force. There are times when you don't want to blast a 20-foot radius, like if he's right up next to your allies. You usually have more 1st level spells than 3rd level ones.

If he's not right up close to you, and he has immunity to fire but is not willing to cast the spell shield, then it's not even worth disrupting his spell.

On the other hand, if it's not a mage, you don't cast MM at all, you cast something useful like Stinking Cloud/Slow/Bands of Steel.

MM is only useful for disrupting the casting of spells, it is never worthwhile any other time. It still isn't as good as Fireball for that.

Also, this may possibly be rocket science based on how few people understand it, but you can actually cast a fireball in such a way that it only effects your enemies unless he is standing in the middle of them. And even then, if he's the only enemy, you can still cast it 20ft over your head.


We could keep going back and forth. All I'm saying is, sometimes Fireball will be the right choice, and sometimes it will be Magic Missile. Don't write it off so quickly.

And I'm saying that Fireball is sometimes the right choice to disrupt a caster, and neither is worth it at all ever otherwise.

[Myou]

Well, I think it's better than Remove Scent. Also, I don't think you need Magic Missile just yet, especially with the array of offensive abilities you already have (most notably Lesser Orb of Acid). Also, level 1 Shield is pretty sad so I'd just skip it and wait a bit to pick it up.

Well, remove scent is there primarily because my backup strategy (as a solo adventurer) is to use my class skills, hide and move silently, to sneak past trouble.

But there's no reason not to replace MM, like you say. I'll probably do that. Although I'll wait a bit before I change it on my sheet, I just sent an updated one to my DM.

[Eldariel]

If it's a solo adventure, pick the damn Lesser Vigor. Seriously, paying for healing is for chumps.

[Myou]

If it's a solo adventure, pick the damn Lesser Vigor. Seriously, paying for healing is for chumps.

I can cast cures by spending slots like a cleric though, do I need Lesser Vigour too?

(It might have been a good idea to mention that sooner. ^^; )

[Eldariel]

I can cast cures by spending slots like a cleric though, do I need Lesser Vigour too?

(It might have been a good idea to mention that sooner. ^^; )

That changes a lot. No, I don't think you need Lesser Vigor then; it's better than Cures for out-of-combat healing, but it's not like you'd want to prepare it anyways as you don't know how many and when you'll need them. The one reason to still pick it though is being able to use Wands of Lesser Wands, which are far more effective than Wands of Cure Light Wounds.

[Myou]

That changes a lot. No, I don't think you need Lesser Vigor then; it's better than Cures for out-of-combat healing, but it's not like you'd want to prepare it anyways as you don't know how many and when you'll need them. The one reason to still pick it though is being able to use Wands of Lesser Wands, which are far more effective than Wands of Cure Light Wounds.

Wands of Lesser Wands? You mean wands of Lesser Vigour, right?
Out of combat healing won't really be a problem for me, my race gets a slow regeneration so as long as I can hide for 24 hours and avoid combat or anything too strenuous I can recover my HP. Of course if I can't get somewhere safe and quiet that's another matter....

[Keld Denar]

Consider Pearls of Power 1 as recharges on Lesser Vigor as opposed to the wand. A PoP1 costs 250g more than a single wand, and allows you to prep 1 LV per day, yet get to cast it twice. Since you are casting it, it uses your CL. A Wand of Lesser Vigor only restores 11 hp per casting, while a hand cast one at CL5 restores 15. 4 extra HP per cast, and the ability to use it twice a day forever strike me as worth just a bit more than the 750 for the wand. Plus, if you really don't need to use the Vigor, you can use the Pearl to recall something else.

Oh, and instead of Expeditious Retreat, and option might be Swift Expeditous Retreat. It only lasts 1 round, as opposed to the normal version, but it also only takes a swift action to cast, leaving your standard action open to cast a different spell. In like, 9/10 situations, Swift ER will serve you better than standard ER, well, thats my opinion.

[Myou]

Consider Pearls of Power 1 as recharges on Lesser Vigor as opposed to the wand. A PoP1 costs 250g more than a single wand, and allows you to prep 1 LV per day, yet get to cast it twice. Since you are casting it, it uses your CL. A Wand of Lesser Vigor only restores 11 hp per casting, while a hand cast one at CL5 restores 15. 4 extra HP per cast, and the ability to use it twice a day forever strike me as worth just a bit more than the 750 for the wand. Plus, if you really don't need to use the Vigor, you can use the Pearl to recall something else.

Oh, and instead of Expeditious Retreat, and option might be Swift Expeditous Retreat. It only lasts 1 round, as opposed to the normal version, but it also only takes a swift action to cast, leaving your standard action open to cast a different spell. In like, 9/10 situations, Swift ER will serve you better than standard ER, well, thats my opinion.

I did look as Swift ER, but I thought it might not last long enough to flee. Is one round really enough to get away?

[Keld Denar]

I did look as Swift ER, but I thought it might not last long enough to flee. Is one round really enough to get away?

That depends. Contrary to its name, Swift ER is usually used to get to someone, not away. If cast before a charge, a character who normally gets 30' movement can charge 120'. If cast in a round with a touch spell, you could get around to someone 60' away to deliver that touch.

And, if its really used to get away, you get a burst of 120' (Run action is 4x movement, so you'd move 240' instead of 120' as a human) which should put you far enough ahead to get away. On the other side, ER costs you your standard action, allowing you to only make a single move the round you cast it. That's only 60', so a medium creature could catch you then in a charge. Every round after that, you'd move at 60', or run at 240', but if you got caught and dropped or grappled just after you cast it, you'd be pretty SoL there too. Each is situational, I just think Swift ER is more useful in more situations. YMMV.

[only1doug]

That depends. Contrary to its name, Swift ER is usually used to get to someone, not away. If cast before a charge, a character who normally gets 30' movement can charge 120'. If cast in a round with a touch spell, you could get around to someone 60' away to deliver that touch.

And, if its really used to get away, you get a burst of 120' (Run action is 4x movement, so you'd move 240' instead of 120' as a human) which should put you far enough ahead to get away. On the other side, ER costs you your standard action, allowing you to only make a single move the round you cast it. That's only 60', so a medium creature could catch you then in a charge. Every round after that, you'd move at 60', or run at 240', but if you got caught and dropped or grappled just after you cast it, you'd be pretty SoL there too. Each is situational, I just think Swift ER is more useful in more situations. YMMV.

I have Swift ER as a duskblade spell on my gish, i wish i could have taken normal ER instead. (i could take it with my wizard levels but I don't think i'd ever memorise it).

[Myou]

That depends. Contrary to its name, Swift ER is usually used to get to someone, not away. If cast before a charge, a character who normally gets 30' movement can charge 120'. If cast in a round with a touch spell, you could get around to someone 60' away to deliver that touch.

And, if its really used to get away, you get a burst of 120' (Run action is 4x movement, so you'd move 240' instead of 120' as a human) which should put you far enough ahead to get away. On the other side, ER costs you your standard action, allowing you to only make a single move the round you cast it. That's only 60', so a medium creature could catch you then in a charge. Every round after that, you'd move at 60', or run at 240', but if you got caught and dropped or grappled just after you cast it, you'd be pretty SoL there too. Each is situational, I just think Swift ER is more useful in more situations. YMMV.

Ah, I never really thought of using it that way. :o

What does the 'S' in SoL stand for? And what does YMMV stand for?


I have Swift ER as a duskblade spell on my gish, i wish i could have taken normal ER instead. (i could take it with my wizard levels but I don't think i'd ever memorise it).

Why's that?

[Keld Denar]

What does the 'S' in SoL stand for? And what does YMMV stand for?

SoL = Stuck Outta Luck (stupid profanity filters)
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary (used to be tacked onto car commercials about driving experiences as a disclaimer that things may not be exactly as shown in the commercial. Now uses as a general expression that means "individual experience may or may not be similar to poster, try it yourself to figure it out".

When in doubt, UTFG (Use The Friendly Google)...

[Myou]

SoL = Stuck Outta Luck (stupid profanity filters)
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary (used to be tacked onto car commercials about driving experiences as a disclaimer that things may not be exactly as shown in the commercial. Now uses as a general expression that means "individual experience may or may not be similar to poster, try it yourself to figure it out".

When in doubt, UTFG (Use The Friendly Google)...

Ahhhh, I've heard both of those on American tv shows. :o