Miko vs. Celia - Who do you like better/Dislike more?

[Charles Phipps]

Ah, absence makes the heart grow fonder. I miss Miko. I still hope, somehow, she's going to come back and be changed for her experiences given that she's dead and that certainly hasn't stopped Roy. You have to admire someone who can make even Elan pause and wonder about her sanity.

Miko was her own woman and inspired some wonderful fan art. Sadly, she's dead now after making some rather foolish decisions that might have seriously impacted the world for the worst. Still, there was always the fact that she was determined even if she was incompetent.

I am less fond of Celia. It's not that I possess the rapid hatred that some fans had for Miko. Instead, it's more the fact that I don't enjoy her appearances in the strip. Bluntly, aside from being a woman, I don't really see what Roy sees in the character. Also, I think that she's failed in her central conceit. The idea of being a "normal" person thrust into the world of PG-friendly Sword and Sorcery that is the Order of ths Stick.

I don't mind people who cause problem for the Order of the Stick. While I disliked Shojo, I'm very fond of the villains and always liked Miko. Instead, I think what dislikes me most about Celia is she's just self-righteous enough to be annoying. There's plenty to be self-righteous about with Belkar but Haley is a different story whatsoever. If she was interested in locking up Belkar then that would be different but she doesn't intend to do anything about Belkar, she wants HALEY to do something about it. Haley who she looks at in disgust as a thief and murderer.

Maybe I'm projecting but if there's one person in the world I can't stand, it's people who refuse to do things for themselves. If you're not contributing to something you can reasonably effect then you have no real right to complain about the situation. The fact that she also liberally spends Haley's money is also something that would have had me kick her out of our game group. The fact that these murderers and thieves are getting resurrected is bad enough, but now Celia is doing it on Haley's dime. That's arguably not a good action but evil, despite its nice motivation.

Miko had uncontrollable rage issues but she was obviously presented in the wrong and delusional. Celia, on the other hand, has been presented as perfectly sane but still choosing to be a serious impediment to Haley.

I don't care much for that.

[Llama231]

I have pretty much the exact same opinion as you on this.:smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Miko was more a foil and less an actual member of the party. You could even argue she was an antagonist. And she was a good, solid paladin with an equally good and solid stick up her behind. Celia went from convenient lawyer to ally, but she's not very good at the latter thing, and for an adventuring party, using words and contracts is less handy than killing things until they are dead and then taking their things.

Celia's death wouldn't even be as cool as Miko's was, unless she gets a crowning moment of awesome sometime soon.

[Morty]

As characters, they both have their virtues, though Miko is probably a better-developed character, if only judging by the amount of pointless flaming she caused. As people, I'd prefer Celia by far- she might be too self-confident, big-headed and incompetent, but at least she's not an arrogant, self-righteous and violent loony like Miko was.

[Lissou]

I like Celia. She reminds me of what it was to move to another country and have everybody constantly think I was stupid because I didn't know some stuff and wasn't familiar with traditions, shows and much more.
Miko... Well, I wasn't on the forums until after she was dead, so I missed the flame wars. As a result, I never really bothered to have an opinion about her. I just saw her as a NPC, possibly more important to the story than others, but still not worth liking or disliking, if I'm making sense.

If I have to compare their views, then I prefer Celia's. Not kill anyone rather than kill those you think are "evil", and too bad for the people who loved them. It makes a lot more sense. However, I realise it isn't how the game was made, and therefore it's probably pretty idealistic. But so far, she's done a good job of proving you can find peaceful solutions to you problems rather than shoot and get some more mortal enemies.
Well, I guess Miko killed everybody, so she didn't give anyone the opportunity to become her mortal enemy. (See the Thieves in the forest for instance).

So, all in all, I prefer Celia. But I don't hate Miko, and I don't adore Celia either. I guess I'm neutral leaning towards negative about Miko, and neutral leaning towards positive about Celia.

[hamishspence]

Depends on what sources you include. BoVD + BOED put some heavy limits on when you can kill (not for revenge, not when person is a prisoner, unless they have already been condemned and it's your job, not children) and the D&D novels have peace treaties as well as slaughters.

A fairly recent example is The Orc King- orc horde and human/dwarf/elf nations make peace, after the dwarfs discover that long ago they peacefully co-existed with orcs in some places, and the orcs help them defeat More Dangerous Orcs (half-orc, half-ogre)

Roy in Origin of PCs subverts "Violence Is the Only Solution" with the orcs.

EDIT: As for Miko and Celia "Yes! They were evil, so I killed them" + her spiteful "spill your sin-stained blood over the ground" words in Shojo's throne room cemented my dislike.

Celia's decisions, while dubious, haven't been quite as spectacularly catastrophic. And her mindset, while pompous, isn't as spiteful, as far as I can tell at the moment. While she's getting irritating, she as some way to go to top Miko.

[Black Cat Godess]

I'm not really the kind of person who develops intense attachments towards characters in any medium. It is a strange thing to see me get all up in arms about a fictional person (and it has happened on the odd occasion), but despite this, I usually look at characters from a somewhat pragmatic point of view.

I enjoy both Miko and Celia in the strip, if for different reasons. Miko was a different kind of antagonist and provided a different level of tension to the strip. Still, I never developed an intense like or dislike of her; I just like the effect she had on the comic. If I knew her in real life, I'd probably hate her guts, but as a neutral third party watching events unfold, I just enjoy how she made things interesting for the Order.

Similarly, I enjoy Celia's part in this. Again, perhaps I wouldn't like her in real life (would any of us like anyone in this strip if forced to deal with them in the real world?) but she provides a different flavor to the comic. She's an NPC, yes, but she's not a combat hardened veteran or an antagonist like we've seen. She's different than any other character we've seen in the strip and while some people might find her rather annoying, that's okay. That's how she's supposed to be written, or at least, that's how it seems to me. She's new to this world, and while sometimes she does show an extreme lack of knowledge, she's doing the best with what she has.

So really, I like both equally. They are interesting, changing characters who impact the strip in ways we've probably only barely just seen. I have a feeling that Miko will probably be remembered for a long time, even if she's never seen again, and Celia, well...I doubt we've seen all that up her sleeve. There's always room for growth. So yeah, I like them both, don't really prefer one to the other.

[Kish]

Also, I think that she's failed in her central conceit. The idea of being a "normal" person thrust into the world of PG-friendly Sword and Sorcery that is the Order of ths Stick.

I think you're oversimplifying what her "central conceit" is.


The fact that these murderers and thieves are getting resurrected is bad enough, but now Celia is doing it on Haley's dime.

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that Haley's new contract requires her to pay to resurrect everyone. That's not the case. The guild is paying to resurrect everyone, including Roy.

[Charles Phipps]

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that Haley's new contract requires her to pay to resurrect everyone. That's not the case. The guild is paying to resurrect everyone, including Roy.

That's because the Thieves Guild thinks they'll have Haley's money to draw from. The new Guildmaster says as much.

[David Argall]

Both have been highly beneficial to the story. I don't really understand the hatred both have inspired. [I suppose I will go with the idea that both are members of team good who get in the party's way. It is simple and easy to hate Xykon and so he causes no mental discord. But Miko and Celia do. They are people you can't properly deal with by sword or spell. They are good people who cause problems, and get hated for it.]

Now given I once suggested that Celia was just a brand X substitute thrown into the role of Roy's sex object when the writer found himself unable to make Miko work [and I still think she could have been much better than Celia has been], Miko has to be my first choice, but Celia has been busy making herself useful [for the story, not the party] and may well grow even more [which is likely bad news for the party.]

[Fish]

I'm not a big fan of Celia, primarily because I don't see what possible story function she serves. The only time she's been of any use has been to get Haley out of the ruins of Azure City, and that's something Haley should've done herself. The fact that Haley didn't leave the city just makes her look bad — upstaged by a minor character.

Celia exerts undue influence on the plot, in my opinion, given her stature. It puzzles me why she's still even there.

Now that the Mark of Justice is removed and there's no need to keep Belkar and Roy together, she could just fly away with Roy's body and have him rezzed somewhere else. Wait, she can't, because Roy's been captured. Why has Roy been captured? Because Celia screwed up. And she can't leave Haley and Belkar behind to face the wrath of the Thieves Guild. Why? Because Celia screwed up.

I'm not impressed by incompetence and she has done virtually nothing to prove her worth to the party or, in my opinion, to the plot.

[The Neoclassic]

I liked Celia... when she was still a secondary character. Having her for many, many strips in a row has displayed her annoying qualities to an extent which is no longer enjoyable. I still think she's better than Miko though, for who I never had any fondness.

[WinterSolstice]

Celia is my least favorite character in the strip. Oddly enough, there are at least 3 other threads addressing this issue, which should give some indication as to just HOW big of a hatred tool Celia's becoming.

I initially hated Miko, but in retrospect I reconsidered based on plot points I hadn't noticed previously. Sadly, I just don't see this happening with Celia.

I suspect we haven't seen the last of Miko either, just for the fact that I can do this:miko::miko::miko:
Only plot-critical characters can be smileyed (still waiting on the roach though) !:smallwink:

[Assassin89]

If I think in terms of my D&D group, I would not like Miko.

Miko would first attack the goblin and sorcerer after detecting evil.
Miko would then attack the warforged, the goliath and me for associating with the sorcerer and goblin.

Celia, on the other hand would probably not harm any of us except the warforged if he threatened her, which is unlikely.

[Ganurath]

...but at least she's not an arrogant, self-righteous and violent loony like Miko was.Two out of three is still pretty bad, and I'd prefer someone who's violent to someone who can hide behind the party leader's bedsheet or her upbringing to avoid the consequences of her actions.

[Dorizzit]

Celia is extremely arrogant, considers herself the ultimate authority on everything, assumes that everything has a peaceful solution, and has repeatedly gone against a more knowledgeable and worldly authority figure who actually lives in THIS DIMENSION. She is naive to the point of stupidity and refuses to admit it, despite repeated evidence. And whenever she is getting taken down a notch (at a painfully slow rate), she gets a victory which boosts her ego back into the ionosphere and instantly makes her assume she knows everything.

I liked Miko. She had some obnoxious moments, but I never stopped liking her. Celia is...another story.

[Lupy]

Well...

Celia: Celia wants a peaceful solution to everything. She is an excellent negotiator but also refuses to accept that she could ever be wrong.

Miko: Miko wants a religiously satisfying solution to everything. She is an excellent warrior but refuses to accept that she could ever be wrong.

Celia: Celia refuses to listen to the more worldly Haley in life or death situations.

Miko: Miko refuses to listen to the more worldly Roy in life or death situations.

Celia: Hides behind Haley when things get violent.

Miko: Kicks ass when things get violent.

Celia: Negotiates things out.

Miko: Does not negotiate.

Celia: Is nice to the order but incompetent. She has now real excuse other than screwed up opinions about a violent world for her incompetence.

Miko: Does as much as she can based on what she knows, or thinks she knows. She has a lifetime of isolation to explain her incompetence.

I like Miko alot more.

[LuisDantas]

No contest at all. I like Celia just fine and I am in fact puzzled by all this ill will towards her.

Miko, on the other hand, was just a self-serving arrogant proud mary.

[WinterSolstice]

No contest at all. I like Celia just fine and I am in fact puzzled by all this ill will towards her.

Miko, on the other hand, was just a self-serving arrogant proud mary.

2 questions

First, how exactly was Miko self-serving? She spent her entire life in the service of Shojo, the Sapphire Guard, and Azure City, traveling throughout the world at great personal risk asking (as far as we know) nothing in return.
Also, :vaarsuvius: and at times even:roy: display moments of EXTREME arrogance on several occasions throughout the story. I don't know your feelings towards them, but I find a characters arrogance to be an unfair reason to dislike them.

Second, what the heck is a proud mary? are you referring to the song? the band? or did you mean Mary Sue?

If you meant Sue, I also disagree on the basis that there is no way Miko was designed as a vehicle for the Giant's wish-fulfillment in the story.

[Kroy]

No contest at all. I like Celia just fine and I am in fact puzzled by all this ill will towards her.

Miko, on the other hand, was just a self-serving arrogant proud mary.

Seconded. I hate how since the fall of AC Celia has become incompetent. Celia was kind of annoying in the most recent comic.

[Captain Six]

I like them both actually.

[Charles Phipps]

I think that Celia dying for good has pretty well broadcasted by the comic. I think that would actually be pretty bad as it implies that any girl that Roy likes will die.

[Kish]

I think that Celia dying for good has pretty well broadcasted by the comic.
As I remember, you were saying that as soon as she showed up in Azure City.

[Puppeteer]

Miko, by far.
The point is that we were supposed to dislike Miko to some extent, her self-righteousness and that holier-than-thou attitude was all part of the stereotyped paladin trying to follow the alignment to the letter.
Rich made a great job with her, remarkable all the way, from her inception to her demise, to which I felt sorry for her, and that's saying a lot considering how much she tried to put down our heroes. Personally I never found Miko annoying anyway.

I have no idea what Rich decided to do with Celia on the other hand. I doubt he meant for a second-in-a-row nuisance for Roy (and the order), she seemed to have just slipped away, out of control. She is arrogant, self-centered, shallow, coward, ditzy. She seems like a catalyst of bad attitudes and she has nothing to back them up a little.
She doesn't look like a competent lawyer as well, nor she is strong, or bright in ANY regard, or funny.
Have you ever had one of those friends who got no qualities whatsoever but always thought to be so mighty, smart and constantly tried to show off with disastrous outcomes? That's Celia.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I like them both actually.

I agree, too. They just get the hate because the Order doesn't like them.

[Zevox]

I'm fine with Celia. Her most recent actions with giving away Haley's money and the apparent return of her mild preachiness annoy me a bit, but I really don't understand how she inspires more than mild annoyance.

Miko, on the other hand, I hated, and still hate. She is a character I utterly cannot sympathize with, and aside from causing some good jokes (which were mostly at her expense), she did nothing I liked. Her fall and death were two of the happiest moments of this comic for me.

Zevox

[Beans]

I hated Miko, but that's a good thing---she's meant to be hated. She's kinda a poke at the Paladin DnDer, expecting others to conform to her morals and all. She was a good person who was so wrapped up in her honor and morals that she failed do good. Thus, an antagonist that is't a villain.

[LuisDantas]

2 questions

First, how exactly was Miko self-serving?

In a nutshell: by decreeing herself the last bastion of virtue so that her pride wouldn't suffer, despite overwhelming evidence that it would be a huge mistake to follow that tempting path.


She spent her entire life in the service of Shojo, the Sapphire Guard, and Azure City, traveling throughout the world at great personal risk asking (as far as we know) nothing in return.

Except, apparently, for justifications and support to feeding her gargantuan ego.

I actually blame Shojo and to a lesser degree Hinjo for that. They knew full well how insufferable Miko had become and pretty much ignored the dangers involved.


Also, :vaarsuvius: and at times even:roy: display moments of EXTREME arrogance on several occasions throughout the story.

And the one time one of them acted on it in a way comparable to Miko's (when Vaarsuvius blasted Kubota out of existence) it was quite shocking.

I half doubt it happened still.


I don't know your feelings towards them, but I find a characters arrogance to be an unfair reason to dislike them.

Not when they let the fate of a whole city hang in the balance, no I don't think so. Miko is as guilty and despicable as they come. Much unlike Celia.


Second, what the heck is a proud mary? are you referring to the song? the band? or did you mean Mary Sue?

Jargon for someone who acts out of his/her pride, even when the consequences are clearly and consistently destructive.

No, a Mary Sue is something else entirely. For one thing, a Mary Sue is supposed to be competent, even if unconvincingly so. Elan might be a Mary Sue, perhaps. Belkar probably qualifies.

But not Miko, who is simply a victim of her own hubris. A criminally irresponsible victim, but still a victim.


If you meant Sue, I also disagree on the basis that there is no way Miko was designed as a vehicle for the Giant's wish-fulfillment in the story.

Heck, I certainly hope not. What a weird thought! :)

[Rotipher]

I hated Miko, but that's a good thing---she's meant to be hated. She's kinda a poke at the Paladin DnDer, expecting others to conform to her morals and all.

More like a poke at the lousy paladin D&Der, namely the kind who thinks paladins are supposed to act like intolerant, ultra-judgemental, trigger-happy fanatics, even at the cost of the campaign's goals and the other players' fun.

[Berserk Monk]

Miko

I like Miko more. Both characters are extremely lawful and twist the rules to their liking. Miko believed strictly in order and convinced herself, no matter what the situation, the gods favored her and everyone else was evil. Celia, well, Celia is a lawyer. 'Nough said. The difference is Miko had a revaluation. Upon her death, she was told by Soon how much of a bitch see was. Celia, although she is devout not to harm another soul, she was willing to let Haley die in the last battle with the guild. Plus, she's a complete air head.

[Ghastly Epigram]

I'm not a big fan of Celia, primarily because I don't see what possible story function she serves. The only time she's been of any use has been to get Haley out of the ruins of Azure City, and that's something Haley should've done herself. The fact that Haley didn't leave the city just makes her look bad — upstaged by a minor character.

Celia exerts undue influence on the plot, in my opinion, given her stature. It puzzles me why she's still even there.

Wait, at points you say is of no use to the story or the plot, and then you say she has undue influence on it? :smallconfused: Which is it? If it is the former, I very much disagree, as I say below. And if it is the latter, that puzzles me as a view point. Only people who have been designated as Main Characters are allowed to do anything of worth? Haley was wearing +5 Boots of Inaction, and Celia managed to convince her they were a poor fashion choice. I see nothing wrong with this. Haley should have done it herself, yes (Not because she is a main character, but because it is the sensible thing to do), but she didn't, and Celia helped her along.

EDIT: Having said that, at this point I am not sure one could call her a minor character anyway. Looking at the Character Appearances (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90191) thread she has 62 appearances, not far behind Miko. She had a large role during the trial, and well, with all the stuff she has been doing recently (Plus being Roy's girlfriend), calling her a minor character at this point does not seem feasible.


Now that the Mark of Justice is removed and there's no need to keep Belkar and Roy together, she could just fly away with Roy's body and have him rezzed somewhere else. Wait, she can't, because Roy's been captured. Why has Roy been captured? Because Celia screwed up. And she can't leave Haley and Belkar behind to face the wrath of the Thieves Guild. Why? Because Celia screwed up.

Erm, Belkar would not have had the Mark of Justice removed in the first place if Celia had not "screwed up." Not to mention this looks like it is leading to resurrecting Roy faster than would have happened otherwise.


I'm not impressed by incompetence and she has done virtually nothing to prove her worth to the party or, in my opinion, to the plot.

How about not only leaving Azure City, but everything that has happened in Greysky so far? Not only have these events lead to Belkar losing the Mark of Justice and getting "fake character development," it also looks like it is going to lead to resurrecting Roy. It does not get much more plot critical than that! Plus Haley is having some of her loose ends tied up, not to mention possibly learning more about her father's imprisonment if what Bozzok says is true. PLUS there is a good chance the Sending spell got sent which will hasten the reuniting of the party a fair bit.

It seems to me Celia is responsible for getting towards the goal so many people have been crying for for so long. Now, it is true that not much of this has been intentional, but right now Celia is one of the only things that has been moving the plot forwards.

Now, her incompetence, personality, and whether you like her character (And indeed, her as a person) is an entirely different matter. :smallwink:

[Prak]

Miko was a self righteous bitch who believed evil should die. Celia is a self righteous bitch who believes the world has to bend to her distaste for killing and inept aptitude for the law.

That said, Miko was an interesting character who really amounted to little more than a serious pain in the ass. Celia is a bitch, no less, who wants everything her way. Gods forbid she kill someone who has it coming and get blood on her ivory tower.

If I had a choice, I'd much rather Miko show up again than Celia stay with the group any longer. Hopefully Roy will see past his anatomy again and realize that Celia needs to leave.

[Quorothorn]

Similarly, I enjoy Celia's part in this. Again, perhaps I wouldn't like her in real life (would any of us like anyone in this strip if forced to deal with them in the real world?) but she provides a different flavor to the comic. She's an NPC, yes, but she's not a combat hardened veteran or an antagonist like we've seen. She's different than any other character we've seen in the strip and while some people might find her rather annoying, that's okay. That's how she's supposed to be written, or at least, that's how it seems to me. She's new to this world, and while sometimes she does show an extreme lack of knowledge, she's doing the best with what she has.

Actually, I think I'd like most of the Order if I personally knew them. Particularly Elan and Durkon. I'm not saying I wouldn't occasionally be annoyed with them--I have moments of annoyance with pretty much all my friends, after all--but overall I think we'd get on. On the darker side of things, if I was fairly powerful I'd likely do quite well as a minion of Xykon and Redcloak. OotS-land overall seems like a world in which I'd actually function fairly well, in fact (a bit of a rarity: I wouldn't do too well in most fantasy worlds, I think).

[Captain Six]

Miko was a self righteous bitch who believed evil should die. Celia is a self righteous bitch who believes the world has to bend to her distaste for killing and inept aptitude for the law.

...Wait, you're saying you don't? If an evil person came and killed my family I'd be pretty pissed. Sorry if that offends you.

[Prak]

...Wait, you're saying you don't? If an evil person came and killed my family I'd be pretty pissed. Sorry if that offends you.

No, evil has as much right to exist as anyone else, now when they kill my family, I'll kill them, but just being evil is not an offense worthy of death. you also missed the part where that means half the OOTS should die...

[Charles Phipps]

I've got to admit that the only Order of the Stick members I'd truly have trouble with are Elan, Haley, and Belkar. Haley because I don't truck with people robbing me, Belkar because, and Elan because he'd give my stuff away to evil rogue shopkeepers. I can just say no to Elan though.

Vaarsivus, I know in real life. (I work in Academia)
Durkon is pretty much like my Dad, except he drinks less. (Just kidding pop)
Roy is an okay dude.


No, evil has as much right to exist as anyone else, now when they kill my family, I'll kill them, but just being evil is not an offense worthy of death. you also missed the part where that means half the OOTS should die...

I think everyone pretty much agrees that Belkar should die, actually. That includes members of the OOTS, it's just that Belkar is a weapon they can't afford to discard right now.

[Kish]

No, evil has as much right to exist as anyone else, now when they kill my family, I'll kill them, but just being evil is not an offense worthy of death. you also missed the part where that means half the OOTS should die...
...the hell? Either your math says "Belkar=half the OotS," or it says, "Two of the nonevil members of the OotS are actually evil."

[Zevox]

(would any of us like anyone in this strip if forced to deal with them in the real world?)
Sure. I wouldn't want to be within a 10 mile radius of Belkar, and Elan would be annoying as hell, but I don't see myself having any problems with the rest of group (assuming V was normal rather than trance-deprived irritable and Haley didn't steal anything from me). I'll not go into lists of everyone else, but generally speaking I don't think I'd mind any of the non-evil characters save Miko and Eugene.

Zevox

[Prak]

I've got to admit that the only Order of the Stick members I'd truly have trouble with are Elan, Haley, and Belkar. Haley because I don't truck with people robbing me, Belkar because, and Elan because he'd give my stuff away to evil rogue shopkeepers. I can just say no to Elan though.

Vaarsivus, I know in real life. (I work in Academia)
Durkon is pretty much like my Dad, except he drinks less. (Just kidding pop)
Roy is an okay dude.



I think everyone pretty much agrees that Belkar should die, actually. That includes members of the OOTS, it's just that Belkar is a weapon they can't afford to discard right now.

I think I'd get along with the order fairly well actually... hell, I know Elan (my friend just isn't genre savvy), I know V (just about, my friend's getting better)... I think I might be taking a break from our relationship with Haley... My problem would be Celia... Miko I'd just plot against with Belkar, Celia would be doomed.


...the hell? Either your math says "Belkar=half the OotS," or it says, "Two of the nonevil members of the OotS are actually evil."
My math says that Miko thought two of the other members were evil and avoiding her detection like Belkar.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I get a vision of Celia running exuberantly into a room:

Celia: I did it! I did it!
:miko: Did what?
Celia: Look! (Drags her to the forums) My first major flamewar!
:miko: I...I'm so proud of you. I've trained you well.

[The Extinguisher]

The night is like an ordinary night. You're studying for your interior decorating exam, and have called it a night. The next morning, you wake up in the middle of the desert, surrounded by people who have no care or want for interior decorating, but that's all you know.

Now. Try and save the world and save your significant other from certain death. Go!

[LuisDantas]

She's kinda a poke at the Paladin DnDer, expecting others to conform to her morals and all. She was a good person who was so wrapped up in her honor and morals that she failed do good. Thus, an antagonist that is't a villain.

Uh? Most anyone expects others to conform to their morals. It's just that most people don't much count on it.

As for Miko being a good person, I must strongly disagree. Self-deluded does not good make.

As for her being wrapped up in honor and morals, make that a strong disagreement emphasized twice. She very clearly lost even the capability for moral discernment by the time she refused to surrender to Hinjo.

Unless you refer to very early on, I suppose, although we really don't have evidence in that favor.

[Zeful]

The night is like an ordinary night. You're studying for your interior decorating exam, and have called it a night. The next morning, you wake up in the middle of the desert, surrounded by people who have no care or want for interior decorating, but that's all you know.

Now. Try and save the world and save your significant other from certain death. Go!

I would like to add that your last job got you knocked out by thugs from behind. This has been your only experience with violence.

[Grail]

Miko > Celia.

Miko added drama to the plot and was important in moving many story arcs along. Celia adds no drama to the plot and is unimportant in all story arcs, they could exist just as well, if not better without her around.

The writing for Miko was superior to that of Celia for both the tension/dramatic bits and the comedic. I've never once laughed at Celia's antics. Not even cracked a smile.

[Raging Gene Ray]

As for Miko being a good person, I must strongly disagree. Self-deluded does not good make.

As for her being wrapped up in honor and morals, make that a strong disagreement emphasized twice. She very clearly lost even the capability for moral discernment by the time she refused to surrender to Hinjo.


Miko didn't want to surrender to Hinjo because that would involve putting herself in prision, unable to defend her city. It would also mean Roy and Belkar would run free, which would violate her moral obligation to protect her city.

You can call Miko a slash happy, self-righteous bitch all you want, that doesn't change the fact that the Order CHOSE to present themselves as nothing more than a bunch of selfish, petty adventurers when they made it clear they wanted her dead and had no problem with the murder of an Azurite guard or the destruction of the gate.

Her "deluded" theory that the Order was working with Xykon made a lot of sense given how they behaved around her. Which is more reasonable:

The lich they said was killed had a magical McGuffin that meant he wasn't REALLY killed, or that the party that tried to kill you for not putting out for the leader on the first date and saying "Elf, Fireball!" one time are not the noble lich-slaying heroes they initially presented themselves as?

I'd rather have Miko on my side than Hinjo, to tell you the truth. She soldiered through a long battle with Belkar to avenge that guard he killed while Hinjo practically awarded the Order with medals and cake because they laughed at his anus-based jokes.

For the record, I like Celia, too. She wants to raise these bandits because she believes that even NPC mooks enjoy life just as much as she does and refuses to let even a single one stay dead. That's why she hammered out the contract.

So yeah...I like them both.

[Ganurath]

Miko did not have a proper understanding of how the world works because she was isolated in a monastery. Celia does not have a proper understanding of how the world works despite having received a solid education and having worked for Dorukan on the Material Plane for... decades? Point Miko.

Miko answers to a higher power, be it Shogo's authority (until her fall) or trying to serve the 12 gods. Celia answers to her love of the blade attached to Greenhilt. Point Miko.

Miko wants to make the world a better place by destroying that which would do harm to others, although admittedly she has missed the mark (she was probably more accurate before Belkar entered her life, considering she hadn't fallen yet.) Celia wants to make people around her stop being violent by tying them up with red tape. Point Miko.

Miko resisted Roy's advances long enough for Roy to know her faults. Roy's lack of knowledge of Celia's faults cost him his life (among other things (costing him his life.)) Point Miko.

Miko helped the party fight ogres, evacuate a hotel, and hooked them up with Shogo. Celia won a rigged court case for them and polished Roy's sword. Point Miko.

I find Miko favorable to Celia.

[David Argall]

Miko did not have a proper understanding of how the world works because she was isolated in a monastery. Celia does not have a proper understanding of how the world works despite having received a solid education and having worked for Dorukan on the Material Plane for... decades? Point Miko.
Miko spent about a decade interacting with that world, while Celia continued to not have contact with the real world. So Celia would seem to get this point.


Miko wants to make the world a better place by destroying that which would do harm to others, although admittedly she has missed the mark (she was probably more accurate before Belkar entered her life, considering she hadn't fallen yet.) Celia wants to make people around her stop being violent by tying them up with red tape. Point Miko.
I prefer people who do not go around killing people. If red tape keeps them harmless, that is superior. Point Celia


Miko resisted Roy's advances long enough for Roy to know her faults. Roy's lack of knowledge of Celia's faults cost him his life (among other things (costing him his life.)) Point Miko.
No, negative point for Roy for not investigating closer before jumping into bed.


Miko helped the party fight ogres, evacuate a hotel, and hooked them up with Shogo. Celia won a rigged court case for them and polished Roy's sword. Point Miko.

I find Miko favorable to Celia.
It very much depends on how close the nearest evil monster is and how eager it is to dice you.

[Ganurath]

Miko spent about a decade interacting with that world, while Celia continued to not have contact with the real world. So Celia would seem to get this point.I'm fairly certain she was part of more than just one mission to SerfWay, and none of that decade included Miko's developmental years.
I prefer people who do not go around killing people. If red tape keeps them harmless, that is superior. Point CeliaYou misunderstand, Celia's tying up the people close to her. She's much more flexible about their enemies being violent, because she doesn't associate with them.
No, negative point for Roy for not investigating closer before jumping into bed.Celia gets at least partial blame, because it's strongly implied that she was consenting. Or that there wasn't a lack of consent on her- You get the idea, it was a joint effort.
It very much depends on how close the nearest evil monster is and how eager it is to dice you.You're right. If there aren't any evil monsters nearby I can enjoy a passionate philosophical conversation after some friendly sparring rather than put up with a bubbly and mildly sexist ditz, emphasis mildly since her commentary was an isolated incident. If there are, but they aren't interested in attacking me, it's because they haven't noticed me (keyword monsters) and I'll be able to engage in an ambush with a fellow tactician rather than lose the element of surprise as a needless debate with a sylph gets heated. If they're there and are interested in attacking me, I'd rather have a frontliner with healing magic at my side than a subpar arcanist that would expect me to frontline. So, the margin by which I favor Miko increases exponentially as the risk of a violent encounter increases.

[Quorothorn]

I'd rather have Miko on my side than Hinjo, to tell you the truth. She soldiered through a long battle with Belkar to avenge that guard he killed while Hinjo practically awarded the Order with medals and cake because they laughed at his anus-based jokes.

You're just grossly mis-representing Hinjo there. Defend Miko as you like, but please do not needlessly (and falsely) insult another character in the process.


For the record, I like Celia, too. She wants to raise these bandits because she believes that even NPC mooks enjoy life just as much as she does and refuses to let even a single one stay dead. That's why she hammered out the contract.

I realize this is rather a cheap shot, but...NPC mooks who enjoy life by savoring the suffering of helpless animals and their spouses, you mean?

Also, Pete's still going to stay dead, if you'll remember.

[Captain Six]

Well, I'm starting to get the opinion that Celia and Miko are intentionally opposite, disruptive table-behaviors. To put it simply, and I have yet to hide that I like both these characters so take no offense, Miko runs around with an attitude of "It's evil kill it!" while Celia believes, "Even if it's evil why is it our right to decide if it dies?" Celia's character might be a backlash against Miko's; whom, to my endless amusement, seems to be growing incredibly popular compared to the newest 'dmpc' tag-along character.

I would personally not enjoy being in a party with either of these two play styles, but I'm not so I can enjoy their character easier. On that note I'd hate having Haley in a party even more, Celia and Miko wouldn't con me out of my share of the treasure. Actually out of the main group Elan and Durkon would be the only two I'd personally get along with, maybe that's why I don't get fed up with these "annoying" characters so much. Playstyle vs. Playstyle I don't care for the main characters either, I just like them all as people.

[Kioran]

Well, I'm starting to get the opinion that Celia and Miko are intentionally opposite, disruptive table-behaviors. To put it simply, and I have yet to hide that I like both these characters so take no offense, Miko runs around with an attitude of "It's evil kill it!" while Celia believes, "Even if it's evil why is it our right to decide if it dies?" Celia's character might be a backlash against Miko's; whom, to my endless amusement, seems to be growing incredibly popular compared to the newest 'dmpc' tag-along character.

I would personally not enjoy being in a party with either of these two play styles, but I'm not so I can enjoy their character easier. On that note I'd hate having Haley in a party even more, Celia and Miko wouldn't con me out of my share of the treasure. Actually out of the main group Elan and Durkon would be the only two I'd personally get along with, maybe that's why I don't get fed up with these "annoying" characters so much. Playstyle vs. Playstyle I don't care for the main characters either, I just like them all as people.

I couldn't agree stronger on that bit about not wanting to adventure with Haley, or Belkar and V for that matter. Because I wouldn't be able to trust them with my equipment, much less my life. I probably would also fail to measure up to Miko's expectations or whatever, but then, someone openly quarreling with me is better than someone who makes a happy face at the minor stuff and screws me over everywhere it counts, but not to my face.

Celia is annoying, a bit, but I don't dislike her as such. Rather, it's the lack of direction this Comic has shown for more than 150 strips (a quarter of it's entire run, and more than that, time-wise), what with Roy dead since quite a while, and no really good characters with the spine or the motivation to take the helm.
Rather, we're forced to endure the rule of all the petty characters in the comic, those who are, at best, replacable, including our ever-so overrated CN Rogue. To be honest, if I were travelling with her, I'd also be pissed with her lack of principles, so I don't hold that against Celia.

[LuisDantas]

Miko didn't want to surrender to Hinjo because that would involve putting herself in prision, unable to defend her city.

That's all in your head, I fear; she didn't even try to claim that. In fact, her posture was pure, utter self-righteousness.

Were she that interested in defending Azure City, she wouldn't have put it in such a great risk by slaying Shojo.

Not to mention the little huge matter of having just lost her palatinhood as a direct result of said slaying.

"Won't surrender so that she can defend her city?" Bullocks, I say. She was a proud mary, incapable of accepting her own falibility. A pitiful (if dangerous) fool. And that is all.


It would also mean Roy and Belkar would run free, which would violate her moral obligation to protect her city.

Even if one granted that arguable point, it pales in comparison to the civil unrest and uncertainty that she directly caused by her actions - which, btw, she never repented, you'll notice.


You can call Miko a slash happy, self-righteous bitch all you want,

And I do. I like things simple. Calling a dog a dog and all that.


that doesn't change the fact that the Order CHOSE to present themselves as nothing more than a bunch of selfish, petty adventurers when they made it clear they wanted her dead

Uh? Belkar, sure. But the Order as a whole? You're imagining things. Not even Miko herself, delusional as she tended to be, would think so.


and had no problem with the murder of an Azurite guard or the destruction of the gate.

Ditto. Which webcomic are you talking about?


Her "deluded" theory that the Order was working with Xykon made a lot of sense given how they behaved around her.

You're kidding, right? :)


Which is more reasonable:

The lich they said was killed had a magical McGuffin that meant he wasn't REALLY killed, or that the party that tried to kill you for not putting out for the leader on the first date and saying "Elf, Fireball!" one time are not the noble lich-slaying heroes they initially presented themselves as?

Tell you what, come back to me when you want to talk about OOtS.


I'd rather have Miko on my side than Hinjo, to tell you the truth. She soldiered through a long battle with Belkar to avenge that guard he killed while Hinjo practically awarded the Order with medals and cake because they laughed at his anus-based jokes.

That's an olympic amount of spin, you know.


For the record, I like Celia, too. She wants to raise these bandits because she believes that even NPC mooks enjoy life just as much as she does and refuses to let even a single one stay dead. That's why she hammered out the contract.

So yeah...I like them both.

[Zevox]

That's all in your head, I fear; she didn't even try to claim that. In fact, her posture was pure, utter self-righteousness.

Were she that interested in defending Azure City, she wouldn't have put it in such a great risk by slaying Shojo.

Not to mention the little huge matter of having just lost her palatinhood as a direct result of said slaying.

"Won't surrender so that she can defend her city?" Bullocks, I say. She was a proud mary, incapable of accepting her own falibility. A pitiful (if dangerous) fool. And that is all.
Not to mention that you can tell she wasn't thinking about defending Azure City in the least simply from her comments at the time. When she rejected Hinjo's offer of surrender and a chance at redemption, she wasn't protesting that she wouldn't be able to help save the city, she was shouting:

:miko: "The gods have a plan for me, I know it! I am special, the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard! They wouldn't do this to ME without a reason, I just need to figure out what it is!"

Self-centered and arrogantly assured that she was inherently special and her actions therefor had to be right and guided by her gods to the last.

Zevox

[Dacia Brabant]

The more I think about it, the more I realize I dislike Celia for the same reason I dislike Miko: they're both horrible examples of concepts I am quite fond of.

I like Paladins...when they're intelligent, wise and charismatic champions of virtue and defenders of the weak. I like Paladins that are not only courageous and just but also moderate, prudent and above all magnanimous--that is, not condescending to their inferiors, not being petty or vindictive, but also not doing what they do out of desire for receiving praise and honor. Miko was, well, she was brave and charismatic but that's about it: she was petty, she was foolish, she was thoroughly immoderate and not particularly just, so she was a bad Paladin.

I like pacifism...when it's pragmatically motivated and intelligently applied, not when it's treated as dogma. Ideological pacifism historically has a bad tendency to get into some very dangerous waters--I don't want to go into territory that's verboten on this board though so I will leave it at that, but I do not think that Celia's brand of pacifism is pragmatic or intelligent at all. I think she just tries to shoehorn everything into her ideology regardless of whether the consequences are any more or less damaging than the alternative she so desperately wants to avoid.

That said, Celia is a better person than Miko, but a less interesting character.

[Ganurath]

Uh? Belkar, sure. But the Order as a whole? You're imagining things. Not even Miko herself, delusional as she tended to be, would think so. :roy: I want to bump uglies with the Paladin, until I don't, in which case I insult everything she is with much hooting and hollering from my subordinates.
:durkon: I try ta be reasonable, even helpful as me conflicting interests allow, but aye cannae make up for all the wrongdoings of me comrades.
:haley: It's not filthy lucere, I polish it! This play on words perfectly justifies my life of crime and territorial hostility toward someone in the group that actually respects the law.
:elan: Roy could eat live babies right in front of me and I'd be none the wiser because I'm on an adventure!
:vaarsuvius: I won't stop complaining about this Paladin. Perhaps putting forward a written complain signed with Explosive Runes will address ths issue...
:belkar: I want to kill Windstriker!

And that's just with the pre-trial material.

[Captain Six]

I was pretty startled myself when I went back, just for the heck of it, and tried to read everything from Miko's perspective. It actually produces an interesting story when you look at it as if Miko was the PC:

Miko met an annoying group of NPCs on an escort mission (If there's anything more annoying than a railroad plot...) being insulted, charged money for prisoner's desires, and generally slowed down with their incompetent shenanigans. (Well, that's what I'd call letting a group of people into a building only to have it explode a few hours later at least). And that's when Miko got fed up with the NPC party, beat them down, tied them up and dragged them the rest of the way. After everyone her rank and above falls in love with the NPC mary sue brigade Miko somehow strives through with mild frustration, until the halfling goes on a rampage. Hunting him down she finally is able to land the death blow until the DM-fiat, I mean the other NPC that JUST happened to be there, saves him. Although the NPC is put in jail the one that blasted you is home free, despite the fight being no different than killing a thug in an alleyway, leaving Miko with the harsh lesson that the DM's pets aren't to be harmed.

Then finally, it happens. She overhears herr king talking about how wonderful these NPCs are and how he had lied to you to escort them there because he needs them and their oh-so-perfectness. And that's it, the final straw that broke the camels back. F*** this campaign. Miko draws her sword, not really caring about the game any more and just tries to wreck the story. Rocks fall everyone dies.

Thus ends the tale of Miko and the bad DM and ushers in a time of people arguing with a story I wrote because I was bored and thought it was amusing.

[Raging Gene Ray]

You're just grossly mis-representing Hinjo there. Defend Miko as you like, but please do not needlessly (and falsely) insult another character in the process.


Well...he saw that Belkar slaughtered the guard, saw V Scorching Ray Miko and the rest of the order pull out weapons while insulting Miko, defending Belkar and not once expressing disapproval of the slaughter of one of Hinjo's countrymen. Later, Hinjo is escorting them around the city, making sure they know all is forgiven and telling them how to get free food.



I realize this is rather a cheap shot, but...NPC mooks who enjoy life by savoring the suffering of helpless animals and their spouses, you mean?

Also, Pete's still going to stay dead, if you'll remember.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I would just leave those wifebeating, animal abusing wastes of human life dead. I'm just trying to emphasize WHY Celia would make such a stupid move. And I actually like her for making it. Sticking to her principles and all that.



Ditto. Which webcomic are you talking about?


The one where Roy admitted to the destruction of the gate, but decided to resist arrest because he didn't personally like the arresting officer and defended Belkar with the excuse "Hey, he hasn't done anything to us, so we're helping him with killing you." Remember, I'm only going by Miko's experience, not the entire comic.



:elan: Roy could eat live babies right in front of me and I'd be none the wiser because I'm on an adventure!
:vaarsuvius: I won't stop complaining about this Paladin. Perhaps putting forward a written complain signed with Explosive Runes will address ths issue...


Um...even though we seem to be taking the same sides here, I'm going to have to say I never noticed that from Elan. I did notice Elan holding grudges against Miko's insults despite the fact they weren't much worse than Buddy Roy's.

Also you forgot
:vaarsuvius: It's not that I don't sympathize with these peasants, it's that I merely don't wish to expend my considerable arcane power, despite the fact it literally involves little more on my part than lifting a finger.



:miko: "The gods have a plan for me, I know it! I am special, the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard! They wouldn't do this to ME without a reason, I just need to figure out what it is!"

Self-centered and arrogantly assured that she was inherently special and her actions therefor had to be right and guided by her gods to the last.


Something had broke in her brain. Remember, the Order gave every indication they wanted her dead, so admitting she was wrong would imply the Gods did as well. And after being isolated and rejected by all her peers, her only friends were Shojo and the Gods (Father Figures), and Windstriker. Admitting that she truly fell would give her nothing at all to fall back on. That's why her mind snapped. She wanted to defend her city because her ideals (represented in her rant by her Gods) were all she had left.

[Optimystik]

And that's it, the final straw that broke the camels back. F*** this campaign. Miko draws her sword, not really caring about the game any more and just tries to wreck the story. Rocks fall everyone dies.

More like rocks fall, everyone was already dead but me; but I see your point regardless. :smallwink:

[Viddaric]

ok, I don't know if any of this has been said yet, cuz i didn't bother to read the entire forum, so I appoligise in advance.

Miko is a stuborn, shortsighted, self-ritous bitch.

Celia is just naive, and somewhat unaware of the limitations and emotions of the main mortal plane races (humans, orcs, halflings, etc)

I don't think there is much comparisin there of which one is worse.

I personaly think it would be an entertaining scene if they met up, though, or, even better, roy and miko met up in the afterlife. cue sarcastic rant from roy, self-ritous speech from miko, and a big, fat swordfight.

also, miko refused to beleive that the order of the stick and shojo were not evil, even after the god's judgement to remove her palidin powers. if that's not stuborn, I don't know what is.

and, I don't know if it's just me, but I've always liked magical races, so, Celia does get a boost with me. I don't know why you guys seem to loathe her so much. oh well. let's not burn up this portion of the internets with the flame wars over somthing so insignificant, eh?

[LuisDantas]

:roy: I want to bump uglies with the Paladin, until I don't, in which case I insult everything she is with much hooting and hollering from my subordinates.

That's just answering Miko's outspoken behavior at the level that she will understand and recognize, though.


:durkon: I try ta be reasonable, even helpful as me conflicting interests allow, but aye cannae make up for all the wrongdoings of me comrades.
:haley: It's not filthy lucere, I polish it! This play on words perfectly justifies my life of crime and territorial hostility toward someone in the group that actually respects the law.

Durkon, of course, can't be blamed of anything more serious than a lack of decision. Haley didn't even steal anything in Azure City, and she was involved in a quest for saving the frigging world. I'd say that entitles her for some mild (at worst) hostility for Miko, when her ways are taken into account.


:elan: Roy could eat live babies right in front of me and I'd be none the wiser because I'm on an adventure!

Even leaving the exaggeration aside, that is simply not hostility to Miko.


:vaarsuvius: I won't stop complaining about this Paladin. Perhaps putting forward a written complain signed with Explosive Runes will address ths issue...

Vaarsuvius arguably had good reason to complain. But even conceding the point to you, it's still a far cry from "wanting her to be dead".


:belkar: I want to kill Windstriker!

And that's just with the pre-trial material.

Except for Belkar, that's quite a far cry from "making it clear that they want (Miko) dead)".

What boggles the mind is to see Belkar having such high popularity when he hasn't changed his ways in any constructive way (unless you count his fake personality change as constructive, I guess) and Celia being scolded so mercilessly for what amounts to buying the right to stop the killings at Pete's house. And yet at the same time Miko the proud messiah-to-be butcher is seem as a borderline hero?

Sorry, I don't see any sense in that.

[Kish]

That's just answering Miko's outspoken behavior at the level that she will understand and recognize, though.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Maybe Roy could have gotten through to her and convinced her to change if he'd ever treated her as anything other than "sex object" or "enemy to be humiliated as well as defeated." Maybe not. But the approach he took was perfectly chosen to ensure Miko's enmity.


Vaarsuvius arguably had good reason to complain. But even conceding the point to you, it's still a far cry from "wanting her to be dead".

So you think Vaarsuvius was lying when s/he expressed glee at the thought of Miko being dead here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0246.html)?

Even if that was the case, Miko certainly had every reason to believe Vaarsuvius wanted her dead.

[hamishspence]

remember, despite all the complaints, till now, Celia hasn't stopped the Order doing anything. And even now, she did not use force.

the "see the world from Miko's point of view" has merit. How about applying it to Celia? What has she seen? Belkar killing things left right and centre, regardless of whether it was right, and Haley making no effort to stop him. i'd say by the time Belkar stabbed the Oracle, Celia had lost confidence in Haley's view of the world.

[Kish]

i'd say by the time Belkar stabbed the Oracle, Celia had lost confidence in Haley's view of the world.
Oh, I think you're being optimistic. I'd say she lost confidence in Haley's view of the world around the time she realized, "Wait, her plan to resurrect Roy is to cool her heels under Xykon's nose until someone--probably Xykon--forces her to move?"

[hamishspence]

that had the justification of not knowing about the cloister.

still, the point to be made is some of the Order's actions don't necessarily look all that rational either. Celia at least has her eye on the goal, but is very very impatient.

[Terraxos]

No question for me - I like Celia a lot more than I liked Miko. Both characters had their flaws (which, lest we forget, is what makes them interesting - flawless characters are boring), but Celia's flaws are much more tolerable (and understandable) to me than Miko's were.

Celia: just wants to preserve life at all costs, which is an admirable belief, if somewhat impractical one in a place like Greysky City.

Miko, on the other hand: convinced herself that the Order were responsible for all the evil in the world, and became obsessed with defeating their 'plans', up to the point of killing her lord and destroying her city. She started out as a plausible character, but became irrational to the point of utter stupidity.

So, Celia definitely wins for me; she's somewhat more reasonable and sensible than Miko was, and considerably more pleasant as a person.

[Charles Phipps]

This latest arc is starting to show more and more Miko traits for Celia. Her insistence that Haley is in the wrong and she has a right to STEAL from Haley on the ASSUMPTION that all of the loot that she owns is stolen (from individuals who did not steal it in the first place---since the Dragon undoubtedly got his horde in the traditional fashion of murdering people for it), is born from an arrogance that she is better than Haley.

Really, where does Celia even got the PRIDE to look down on Haley? At least Miko was a paladin.

[SPoD]

This latest arc is starting to show more and more Miko traits for Celia. Her insistence that Haley is in the wrong and she has a right to STEAL from Haley on the ASSUMPTION that all of the loot that she owns is stolen (from individuals who did not steal it in the first place---since the Dragon undoubtedly got his horde in the traditional fashion of murdering people for it), is born from an arrogance that she is better than Haley.

Um, yeah, unless the contract specifically refers to money that Haley actually DID steal, rather than simply all money that she earned.

Which is what Celia says in #621—"50% of the money you stole since you first left the Guild." Nowhere does Celia ever say, "50% of all the money that has ever passed through your hands". This is a specific tax on theft, not on income. If Haley has not stolen a dime since leaving the Guild—instead earning her money from the highly respected career of Adventurer—then she does not owe the Guild anything. That is highly unlikely, however, as she was on her own for months before joining the Order.

In other words, it's not arrogant to assume that Haley stole the money in question if they are having a conversation that specifically refers to the amount of money Haley stole.

[Charles Phipps]

In other words, it's not arrogant to assume that Haley stole the money in question if they are having a conversation that specifically refers to the amount of money Haley stole.

I'm not sure that's really a point since Celia's definition of stealing includes adventuring, which is not stealing by any stretch of the imagination.

[Ganurath]

Really, where does Celia even got the PRIDE to look down on Haley? At least Miko was a paladin.As a lawyer, Celia is an agent of the legal system. As a thief, Haley is an enemy of the legal system. It's only natural that Celia would take issue with her profession.

[hamishspence]

Given she actually tells Haley- go out and kill monsters to get the money to raise Roy- I think she's not counting plain adventuring.

[Raging Gene Ray]

That's just answering Miko's outspoken behavior at the level that she will understand and recognize, though.

I agree with Kish that that's just wrong. I know from bitter experience that no matter how good your advice is or how sound your theories are, if you insult someone as you talk to them, they won't listen.

The only people who think smug insults help get the point across are the people who already agree with you. The one's you try to convince are naturally going to lash out at you and might consciously act against your advice, even if it's self-destructive to them.



What boggles the mind is to see Belkar having such high popularity when he hasn't changed his ways in any constructive way (unless you count his fake personality change as constructive, I guess) and Celia being scolded so mercilessly for what amounts to buying the right to stop the killings at Pete's house. And yet at the same time Miko the proud messiah-to-be butcher is seem as a borderline hero?

For what it's worth, I like (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101992&page=3) Celia. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101947)

And I don't think Belkar's popularity is due to fact he's changed, it's more of the general Badassery he's exhibited as of late. And also the cat. "HE'S KILLIN' TH' DOODZ!!! HE'S SEXING TH' LADY!!! HE'S EATIN' TH' SAMMICH!!! MISTER SCRUFFY FTW!!!"

[Qubanz]

I like Miko alot more. Because Miko was an antagonist. So she is expected to be detrimental and she was interesting in this capacity. She considered herself Lawful Good, but since she filtered everything that happened through her own twisted perception, in which she was always right, she ended up acting Chaotic Evil (Chaotic because her behaviour made sense only in her mind, and was thus unpredictable to others. And Evil because well... killing Shojo and all.) Which thus resulted in her fall from Paladin status.

Miko never annoyed me much as such. Even though she wasn't nearly as funny as Xykon or Nale's little gang, she was a good enemy. And an interesting one because she saw herself as good.


Celia on the other hand... I think Celia needs to be seriously chewed out. But fact is, Haley doesn't have the goods to keep Celia in line. Celia quite obviously doesn't consider Haley the leader of the party. And thus feels free to pursue her blatantly boneheaded ideas again and again. Even though Haley actually has half a clue what she's doing and Celia very much doesn't.

I dislike Celia, certainly. But I blame Haley more for letting her run loose like that, then I blame Celia herself. Stupid is as stupid does after all. And Celia might be pretty annoying. (Would anyone seriously hold on to her beliefs in that situation? I mean Haley told Celia what bastards these guys are. They are wifebeaters and dogfight organizers, and ruthless criminals for that matter. And they tried to kill her. But Celia would rather let Haley die then fight them, even though Haley actually might try to safe her.)

Celia is definitly a highly unlikeable character. (And to be blunt as hell, I suspect those who claim to like her, primarily do so out of fan-loyalty to Rich, rather then sincere like of the character. Because sheesh... Could she be any more the Scrappy?) But the damage she successfully does, I blame more on Starshine for being unable to control the Sylph at all.

[Fish]

Wait, at points you say is of no use to the story or the plot, and then you say she has undue influence on it? :smallconfused: Which is it?
Since Celia has joined up with Haley they seem to be farther away to resurrecting Roy than they were before. Before, it was a case of finding enough money to pay a cleric; now, they have to find enough money to pay a cleric and find enough money to pay the Thieves' Guild and get Roy's body back. As far as obstacles go, Celia has solved two and introduced two. I see no progress.

Haley was wearing +5 Boots of Inaction, and Celia managed to convince her they were a poor fashion choice. I see nothing wrong with this. Haley should have done it herself, yes...
This is precisely the problem that I have with it. Yes, it should've been Haley. I'm trying to see where Rich is going with this, because so far, it seems to make no narrative sense.

Erm, Belkar would not have had the Mark of Justice removed in the first place if Celia had not "screwed up."
I don't see this as a direct result of anything Celia decided to do.

How about not only leaving Azure City, but everything that has happened in Greysky so far?
Nearly everything that has happened in Greysky so far has been a fiasco and Celia is to blame. Roy's body is missing, Haley is in debt up to her eyeballs, the only cleric they ever had access to is gone, nobody (seems to have) contacted Durkon, and the only positive thing you can say is that Belkar isn't ill — which is where we started when Celia came in.

And getting Roy back is just an interminable secondary quest along the road to the real plot: getting to the gate and stopping Xykon. Nobody seems to give a hoot about that any more. The longer they dawdle over Roy, the less important this whole "we have to save the world" quest looks. Seriously. Would you see Superman stopping to pay his bills before saving the multiverse from an evil genius? No, he'd stop the evil genius first. Yet this story seems to be descending to increasingly trivial minutiae.

Not only have these events lead to Belkar losing the Mark of Justice and getting "fake character development," it also looks like it is going to lead to resurrecting Roy.
I disagree that they are any closer. It certainly doesn't seem to be so to me. The Thieves' Guild is going to want the money for the diamonds before anybody gets resurrected. This is a greater obstacle than they had before. One step forward, two steps back.

[Assassin89]

Aside from my D&D perspective, I am relatively neutral towards disliking Miko or Celia.

[Darkmage]

Both have had their upsides and their downsides.

Miko was a antagonist and the only person besides Team Evil that could single handedly defeat the Order of the Stick, her fighting abilities where the best thing about her, as well as the ability for jokes/remarks at her expense being so easy.

I did get sick of her self centredness very quickly however, I've never liked how she shoves what she believes on the OOTS, granted Belkar may be Chaotic Evil and he may have killed that guard, but she never had any right to kill him, just capture him.

Nor did I like her narrow minded belief that she was good and they were evil because the party sided with their party member, as evil as he is.

Celia winning the case, even if it was rigged was quite interesting, and her reaction to the light was amusing.

But her pacifism was tolerable until the battle in Greysky City and began to irritate me, I can accept that she knows next to nothing about humans but I think ANY creature with a shred of common sense would know that in battle you have to fight to defend yourself and your friends, even the stupidest of creatures would know that, I'm just not sure what it is.

And her actions of using Haley's money to help pay for the diamonds is just.....no, just no, real friends should not do that to each other.

[LuisDantas]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Maybe Roy could have gotten through to her and convinced her to change if he'd ever treated her as anything other than "sex object" or "enemy to be humiliated as well as defeated." Maybe not. But the approach he took was perfectly chosen to ensure Miko's enmity.

You'll notice that it was Miko who came down with the weapons in hand over the Order when she first met them, though. After being told by Shojo in no unclear terms that they were not to be harmed.

Complaining that Roy and the Order were not very civil to her afterwards, when she basically demanded to railroad them into her City while lacking no true authority over them (they were not Azurites, hadn't even been there before) is very much like complaining about the harsh language of one who is being pointed a weapon at.

I would bring Roy's apology in #250 to the table as well, but I recognize that, while valid and needed, it did not come at a very effective moment.


So you think Vaarsuvius was lying when s/he expressed glee at the thought of Miko being dead here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0246.html)?

Even if that was the case, Miko certainly had every reason to believe Vaarsuvius wanted her dead.

Woah!

Slow down, please; you're jumping to conclusions over the slightest of hints.

That strip had Vaarsuvius thinking that Miko had died and being happy to have her story be over and done with. That is a very far cry from wanting her to be dead. To claim that as evidence that Vaarsuvius "wanted her dead" is putting quite an ammount of spin into the situation.

Call V rude in that strip and I'll fully agree, as V hirself did. Which is in fact evidence that he was not actively wanting Miko's death, come to think of it.

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure that's really a point since Celia's definition of stealing includes adventuring, which is not stealing by any stretch of the imagination.

How do we know that? Out of the top of my head, I don't think we've never seen her comment of the matter.

I can't help but notice that Miko, however, did pretty much claim that adventure-earned money is stealing and only relented because the Order assured her that the money came from an evil dragon treasure.

[Maxdibe]

I like Miko alot more. Because Miko was an antagonist...
Exactly, plus consider that at some point she turned in a "maybe friend" character, and then again antagonist.
Antagonist - Neutral - Crazy- Antagonist

Celia?
She started like a quasi-antagonist in Dungeon of Dorukan, then she made out with our blue-boss-Roy, but even if she is on the good side she is resolving things in a bit difficult way (see: "this talisman can summon me Roy... as long as you have electrical charges in yuor fingers" and "It's ok Haley, they will ressurect Roy for us... you just have to pay them half your money")

So we had an antagonist doing well her job (as antagonis, not as paladin of course), and a co-protagonist doing her job in her own way...
I prefer the hard workers.

[LuisDantas]

I agree with Kish that that's just wrong. I know from bitter experience that no matter how good your advice is or how sound your theories are, if you insult someone as you talk to them, they won't listen.

That is sortta my point, really. Miko's pride made her oblivious to her own behavior and needed to be taken down a peg. In a way, she demanded to be insulted and Roy and Vaarsuvius decided to oblige.


The only people who think smug insults help get the point across are the people who already agree with you.

I need context to undestand what you're trying to say here. If you're speaking generally, I must then disagree and stand by my point that there are people who need to be insulted in order to consider a message, because they're too self-certain to listen otherwise.

Not that it often works, mind you; but it is still more likely to than when one reinforces the façade of self-importance that would otherwise lead to plain discarding of the point.


The one's you try to convince are naturally going to lash out at you and might consciously act against your advice, even if it's self-destructive to them.

So true.

But talking at the same level still the best possible course of action when meeting that specific sort of fool.

By doing so, one denies that person the opportunity to reinforce his/her confortable self-delusions and brings home the point that self-image is not the be-all-end-all of the situation. More specifically, that self-importance is not a reliable protection from criticism - as, in fact, it shouldn't ever be.

A fool who has a reason to consider criticism, even if that reason is only to avoid further insult, is still better than a fool that simply disregards what he/she is told.

A sad state of affairs in any case, that I will freely grant you. But one that definitely does exist and must be challenged in some way.


(...) And I don't think Belkar's popularity is due to fact he's changed, it's more of the general Badassery he's exhibited as of late. And also the cat. "HE'S KILLIN' TH' DOODZ!!! HE'S SEXING TH' LADY!!! HE'S EATIN' TH' SAMMICH!!! MISTER SCRUFFY FTW!!!"

Belkar didn't change; he's still a violent buffon, he only hides it better.

Which is why I despise him even more than before.

[I iz dapimp]

Dude, as of the present, i definitely like Celia more, i like a woman, who is like, i dunno, ALIVE!!?!!!

[kingworks]

Celia, hands down.

Extra appendages be hot, yo.







*realizes he may be too new to the site to spoof urban slang* :smallredface:

[Kish]

Woah!

Slow down, please; you're jumping to conclusions over the slightest of hints.

Vaarsuvius says clearly and unambiguously that the thought of Miko being dead causes him/her no sorrow and mild amusement, and goes on to express glee at his/her belief that Miko is dead. I concede, based on the empirical evidence, that it's apparently possible to look at that and say, "Vaarsuvius doesn't want Miko dead," but I have no interest in joining you in attempting to bend myself into that uncomfortable-looking position. Vaarsuvius said what s/he said.

[Wanton Soup]

Depends on what sources you include. BoVD + BOED .

Sheesh.

Do you get royalties from that book?:smallconfused:

Just as well OOtS wasn't around in the 2ndEd days, especially with all the Dragon Supplements....

[Wanton Soup]

:miko: "The gods have a plan for me, I know it! I am special, the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard! They wouldn't do this to ME without a reason, I just need to figure out what it is!"

Self-centered and arrogantly assured that she was inherently special and her actions therefor had to be right and guided by her gods to the last.

Zevox

B5. Sebastian.

I don't hate either character.

Miko was there to display a point. Compare her to either Hinjo or O'Chul. The "how NOT to play a paladin" is pretty darn obvious.

Celia I don't know.

What she *has* done good:

Getting the party out of AC.

Trying to get past the Goblins without fighting (fighting straight off the bat would NOT work, since there's an evilgasm number of hobgoblins nearby).

Agreements with the TG to get Roy back from Grubwiggler rather than having to kill all protagonists and then single-handedly get Roy back.

What she has done bad:

Getting prissy with Belkar killing one. Her plot was good but not good enough. Violence was the only answer possible and had to be done in a way that gelled with the scheme so far. Belkar won this one. Celia gets panties in a bunch

Getting prissy with the chocolate bar.

Getting prissy with Haley for not doing something (why not do it yourself, girl?) about Belkar going off the deep end.

Spending Haley's money and putting Haley into obligations because of Celia's personal wants.

Celia is as self centred as Miko was. Where Miko would slash slash slash, Celia gets all whiney with panties bunched. One gets you killed, the other one makes you want to be a killer.

Darkmage >
And her actions of using Haley's money to help pay for the diamonds is just.....no, just no, real friends should not do that to each other.

Worse, there was no need to pay for Roy's resurrection. Grubwigger would have given Roy over to Haley to walk to the next big temple to be killed and rezzed. All that was needed was for Celia to hand herself over to Grubwigger.

Why is it that Celia wants Haley to pay for it, but not her?

[Wanton Soup]

remember, despite all the complaints, till now, Celia hasn't stopped the Order doing anything. And even now, she did not use force.

Only because Belkar couldn't give a rats behind and Haley is a good guy.

How long do you think Celia would last in Team Evil? Or in Linear Guild. Heck, without Haley and Belkar, Celia would now be a slave to toadface.

Despite Celia getting herself into deadly trouble, they helped her.

[Kaytara]

Vaarsuvius says clearly and unambiguously that the thought of Miko being dead causes him/her no sorrow and mild amusement, and goes on to express glee at his/her belief that Miko is dead. I concede, based on the empirical evidence, that it's apparently possible to look at that and say, "Vaarsuvius doesn't want Miko dead," but I have no interest in joining you in attempting to bend myself into that uncomfortable-looking position. Vaarsuvius said what s/he said.

I believe what LuisDanta meant was more that there is a difference between feeling amusement and glee at the thought of someone's death and actually actively willing to cause that death. For example, in real life, the friend or relative of a murder victim may be gleeful at the idea that the murderer will be executed for it, but it doesn't mean the relative would actually be willing to kill the criminal themselves.

[Kish]

I believe what LuisDanta meant was more that there is a difference between feeling amusement and glee at the thought of someone's death and actually actively willing to cause that death. For example, in real life, the friend or relative of a murder victim may be gleeful at the idea that the murderer will be executed for it, but it doesn't mean the relative would actually be willing to kill the criminal themselves.
We're not arguing over whether Vaarsuvius would kill Miko. We're arguing over whether Vaarsuvius wanted Miko dead.

[Aeon221]

Seeing as the vast majority of posters live in societies where the set of available solutions to most conflicts does not include violence, it seems odd that so many are opposed to Celia's attempted peaceful resolution of otherwise violent situations.

The thieves of Greysky City are indeed sleazy people. Last I checked, wifebeating is grounds for divorce, not beheading. Theft is a felony, not a capital offense. Extortion is punished through incarceration, not execution. Even in magical mystery wonderland, these aren't crimes that merit immediate sentence and sendoff by Judge Dredd -- also known as Haley Starshine.

Haley is a murderer, a crook, and a con artist. At the very least, she should be spending life in prison. Instead, she'll be working off her debt to society by paying for the resurrection of npcs who, unlike Haley, commit crimes because of poverty, not avarice.


Miko had her heart in the right place, but her use of violence as the solution of first resort doomed the people of her beloved city. I'm of the opinion that one could defensibly consider her a tragic hero in the model of Oedipus.

[MReav]

Um, Aeon, the people Haley killed were coming to kill her. She just used those despicable behavior traits to not feel bad about it.

Granted, that's still kinda low, but not as low as you make it.

[David Argall]

Haley is a murderer, a crook, and a con artist.

Crook, thief, and con artist looks easy enough to prove, unless Haley gets a good lawyer. But murderer is another story. Those killed recently all fall under self defense. Even if she had finished off Bozzak, she would have a valid claim, at least until Celia produced the cease fire.
Most of the earlier killings also fall under self defense, at least under the adventurer definitions. And that is before we consider that many such killings are properly deemed manslaughter, not murder.

[Flame of Anor]

Well, Celia is smarter and is saner; Miko is less ditzy and more capable; they both are wonderful examples of Good characters who act as infuriating hindrances to other--wiser--Good characters. So I don't know whom I dislike more. At the moment I might say Celia, but that could just be a "familiarity breeds contempt/absence makes the heart grow fonder" effect.

[Optimystik]

I strongly dislike both. They are self-righteous to a fault; Roy and Hinjo provide much better examples of how to be Lawful Good, simply by not assuming their way is the best way all the time.

I can't think of either one being "better" than the other. They are detestable in completely different ways. At least Celia has a chance to redeem herself in my eyes still, so she may win out on that one.


Sheesh.

Do you get royalties from that book?:smallconfused:

That's why I like having hamish around; I usually agree with him so I never actually have to get the books myself. :smallbiggrin:

[Wanton Soup]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Maybe Roy could have gotten through to her and convinced her to change if he'd ever treated her as anything other than "sex object" or "enemy to be humiliated as well as defeated." Maybe not. But the approach he took was perfectly chosen to ensure Miko's enmity.

And maybe if Miko didn't try to kill them from the off and then be a righteous PITA until eventually they had enough and then chain them up, MAYBE they wouldn't have mistreated the poor victimised Miko.

Remember, Miko has no right to arrest them.

[whitelaughter]

If she was interested in locking up Belkar then that would be different but she doesn't intend to do anything about Belkar, she wants HALEY to do something about it. Haley who she looks at in disgust as a thief and murderer.

Maybe I'm projecting but if there's one person in the world I can't stand, it's people who refuse to do things for themselves.

I see where you are coming from, put two points:
1) If Celia tries to tangle with Belkar, she will die. Period. Her spell-like abilites are simply no match for Belkar's dozen extra levels in combat classes.
2) Haley has (with a great deal of justification) claimed to know a lot more about the world than Celia does. She has also known Belkar longer than Celia has, and is interim leader of the Oots. From a Lawful perspective, dealing with Belkar is her responsibility.

Celia and Miko are annoying in exactly opposite ways - I wonder what would happen if they were forced to flat together? Might do them both the world of good.

I also wonder if Roy will meet Miko again before being rezzed? It's only the other side of the mountain, after all.

[whitelaughter]

Remember, Miko has no right to arrest them.
? How did you come to that conclusion?
Miko was ordered to arrest them by Shinjo, and they were in unclaimed territory at the time, so local laws were irrelevant. Besides, in a medieval society, legal powers are often given by rank not location, and arresting someone falls under the category of Low Justice; available to any knight.
Of course a fantasy world =/= our medieval world, but if Miko hadn't had the right to arrest them, Haley would have pointed this out to Durkon during their argument.

[Avilan the Grey]

What boggles the mind is to see Belkar having such high popularity when he hasn't changed his ways in any constructive way (unless you count his fake personality change as constructive, I guess) and Celia being scolded so mercilessly for what amounts to buying the right to stop the killings at Pete's house. And yet at the same time Miko the proud messiah-to-be butcher is seem as a borderline hero?

Sorry, I don't see any sense in that.


They are two different kind of popularity.

Belkar is popular because he is Chaotic Evil played smart. And funny. He is, in fact, a comic relief character a lot of the time. People enjoy seeing his exploits.
Celia is a moron and a hindrance. There is a huge difference.

[Avilan the Grey]

? How did you come to that conclusion?
Miko was ordered to arrest them by Shinjo, and they were in unclaimed territory at the time, so local laws were irrelevant. Besides, in a medieval society, legal powers are often given by rank not location, and arresting someone falls under the category of Low Justice; available to any knight.
Of course a fantasy world =/= our medieval world, but if Miko hadn't had the right to arrest them, Haley would have pointed this out to Durkon during their argument.

In "unclaimed territory" (meaning no direct ruler, I assume?)? I don't remember, but if that is the key then I guess she could. Besides, it is a two-edged sword. The Order would have the right to defend themselves (which they tried to, stupid Plot Rails!) and would have done no legal wrongdoing by killing Miko in the process.

[Raging Gene Ray]

That strip had Vaarsuvius thinking that Miko had died and being happy to have her story be over and done with. That is a very far cry from wanting her to be dead.

No it isn't. Shi thought she was dead, shi said shi felt happy about it. At any rate, I was referring to the trial, where upon seeing that Miko had taken copious amounts of damage from Belkar, V blasts her in the back with lethal force while offering no reason other than "I hate your guts."



Call V rude in that strip and I'll fully agree, as V hirself did. Which is in fact evidence that he was not actively wanting Miko's death, come to think of it.

Okay, now that's an epic amount of spin. "I'm sorry I got caught" does not equate to guilt.


You'll notice that it was Miko who came down with the weapons in hand over the Order when she first met them, though. After being told by Shojo in no unclear terms that they were not to be harmed.

Complaining that Roy and the Order were not very civil to her afterwards, when she basically demanded to railroad them into her City while lacking no true authority over them (they were not Azurites, hadn't even been there before) is very much like complaining about the harsh language of one who is being pointed a weapon at.

Miko offered a chance to surrender, they refused. Granted, she should have read them the charges first, but after Durkon tried Diplomacy, she apologized and accepted their alibi that "most of those crimes were committed by my Evil Twin" She then went on to treat them extremely well.

I was once arrested for a DUI despite being completely sober. I was handcuffed and had to pay to have my car towed and I asked if I could give a blood sample to prove my sobriety, and was taken to a hospital. After that was taken care of, I was transported to a prison cell, but not before having my shoes and belt confiscated on the off-chance I could fashion a weapon out of them. Even when the results of the test came back a few months later, I still had to pay court fees.

The Order, on the other hand, despite admitting being guilty of the destruction of the gate, got to keep their horses, weapons, gold, and remain unrestrained. Instead of sharing a prison cell with a fat guy in a Nascar shirt who had severe diarrhea, they each got separate rooms in a Inn. In the end, their complaints against Miko were "she's annoying and self-righteous, so we're resisting arrest"

So having been "treated like crap" moreso than the Order, they get no sympathy from me about having to deal with a big meanie like Miko. Lucky bastards. I also think it's strange that assaulting an officer is apparently not a crime in Azure City, as they didn't have to defend themselves for resisting arrest and the Scorching Ray to the back.



I need context to undestand what you're trying to say here. If you're speaking generally,
I am.

I must then disagree and stand by my point that there are people who need to be insulted in order to consider a message, because they're too self-certain to listen otherwise.

Not that it often works, mind you; but it is still more likely to than when one reinforces the façade of self-importance that would otherwise lead to plain discarding of the point...talking at the same level still the best possible course of action when meeting that specific sort of fool.

...More specifically, that self-importance is not a reliable protection from criticism - as, in fact, it shouldn't ever be.

A fool who has a reason to consider criticism, even if that reason is only to avoid further insult, is still better than a fool that simply disregards what he/she is told.


Miko had been open to criticism. She agreed she had made a mistake when she discovered it was Xykon's crown that was producing the Evil Aura. If Haley was willing to display the part of her personality to Miko that wanted to selflessly rescue her father from a corrupt government or that would have been willing to lead an Azurite Resistance movement, Miko would have likely treated her just as well as she did Durkon.

It is possible to find some common ground with these fools and offer them reasons besides self-image to behave a certain way, like when Hinjo offered an Atonement spell to Miko...she did say she was confused. Of course, by then a lifetime of being ostracized left her no kind of friendship or simple pleasures of life to fall back on, and the fact that her twice-escaped attempted murderer was laughing at her while hiding behind Hinjo's back couldn't have helped.



Belkar didn't change; he's still a violent buffon, he only hides it better.

Which is why I despise him even more than before.

I didn't mean for it to sound like he did, I was just saying that his character development, real or not, is not why people are cheering his name. It's because he has sammiches and Jenny and they want sammiches and Jenny too (Mmmmmm....sammiches and Jenny).

[Ronan]

Whoa, I guess this is going a little too far... come on!

They can be both self righteous in their own way, but at least Celia is trying to help. Miko was trying to *destroy* the Order, as she said sometimes. Sure, Celia is annoying for being so naïve, doing wrong choices and having wrong conclusions about even obvious things, but I just don't see them on the same page.

[Selene]

Celia is definitly a highly unlikeable character. (And to be blunt as hell, I suspect those who claim to like her, primarily do so out of fan-loyalty to Rich, rather then sincere like of the character.

Well, let me kill your suspicion, then. I actually do like the character. I like the tender side of Roy she brings out. I like that she got us all moving along with the plot. I even kind of like that she seems to bumble her way into getting things done. She annoys me sometimes, but everyone can be annoying sometimes.

Miko, OTOH... She murdered the defenseless old guy. The Twelve Gods and I frown upon that.

And regarding who in the strip I would like in real life, probably almost everyone non-evil (obviously not Miko). V would probably irritate me the most out of all the non-evils, although I appreciate him offing Kubota.


Worse, there was no need to pay for Roy's resurrection. Grubwigger would have given Roy over to Haley to walk to the next big temple to be killed and rezzed. All that was needed was for Celia to hand herself over to Grubwigger.

Why is it that Celia wants Haley to pay for it, but not her?

You actually think handing Celia over to Grubwiggler is an acceptable solution?? I think you've mistaken Haley for Xykon. Hint: Haley is the one with the skin. :smallconfused:

[Ave]

I'm happy with Miko in 2 pieces and i still like Celia.
Though, she was much better when she was just a romantic interest.
So, i guess, she will be more tolerable once Roy is revived.

[hamishspence]

main reason I cite the books mentioned is the PHB is a bit lacking in details, compared to later published books with more info (PHB 3.5 alignment is reprint of 3.0 with no changes)

Plus, I'm not all that fond of "evil = terminate on sight" or "evil = Complete Monster" and I like to mention every book that contradicts it.

[Wanton Soup]

Raging Gene Ray, please show me where V said "I hate your guts" to Miko.

Your meds are either wearing off or too strong, kid.

[Deepkicker]

My two cents:
Miko is a more interesting character who went through a far more unique and unpredictable arc. She was unlikable, but more in that "love to hate her" kind of way. Personally I'd rank her as one of Rich's more finely crafted and enjoyable characters throughout OoTs.

Celia seems to become more irritating with the more screen time she's given. I liked her better when she played more of a bit part. At times Rich doesn't seem to know what kind of character he wants her to be, making some of her actions a tad contradictory. I'd rank her as one of his least interesting characters (amongst the main cast), but I think she'd function all right if he let her take a step back for a while, perhaps after this plot arc.

[David Argall]

Belkar is popular because he is Chaotic Evil played smart. And funny. He is, in fact, a comic relief character a lot of the time. People enjoy seeing his exploits.
Celia is a moron and a hindrance. There is a huge difference.

Not in the sense of being hugely popular. See Gilligan of Gilligan's Island for one case.


In "unclaimed territory" (meaning no direct ruler, I assume?)? I don't remember, but if that is the key then I guess she could. Besides, it is a two-edged sword. The Order would have the right to defend themselves (which they tried to, stupid Plot Rails!) and would have done no legal wrongdoing by killing Miko in the process.

That would be true only for as long as they stayed out of the clutches of Azure City. Legal systems decide for themselves whether you are out of their jurisdiction, and are entirely willing to prosecute people who have never been near the country if they can catch them. So if they ever got caught by Azure City, they could have been punished for killing Miko.

[LuisDantas]

We're not arguing over whether Vaarsuvius would kill Miko. We're arguing over whether Vaarsuvius wanted Miko dead.

No, we are not, because there it makes no sense to argue that.

Kaytara understood my point perfectly. I just don't think it is at all fair to describe Vaarsuvius attitude to Miko as "wanting her dead". It is only true under the most literalist and biased of readings. One might also notice that by such criteria it is at least as adequate to say that Miko wanted the whole Order dead, or even that O-Chul wanted Shojo dead.

[Kish]

No, we are not, because there it makes no sense to argue that.

Then why did you express an opinion on it? We're talking English here. "Vaarsuvius wanted Miko dead" is a phrase with a meaning that could be expressed as, "Vaarsuvius desired Miko to be dead" or "Vaarsuvius would have preferred if Miko had been dead rather than alive, at some point in their acquaintanceship"...but not "Vaarsuvius would kill Miko." That's a different phrase and a different meaning.


Kaytara understood my point perfectly. I just don't think it is at all fair to describe Vaarsuvius attitude to Miko as "wanting her dead". It is only true under the most literalist and biased of readings.

I gather that you believe that. However, as far as I can see, it's true under any reading except one which puts other words in place of "want" or "dead."

One might also notice that by such criteria it is at least as adequate to say that Miko wanted the whole Order dead,

Yes, of course she did. She said so herself.

or even that O-Chul wanted Shojo dead.
...huh?

[Raging Gene Ray]

Raging Gene Ray, please show me where V said "I hate your guts" to Miko.

Your meds are either wearing off or too strong, kid.

In the Throne Room, after the Scorching Ray. I'm paraphrasing, of course, talking more of the essence of the image shi was presenting to Miko. The exact words were along the lines of "Belkar is a....yet I still prefer him to you!" Plus, all those d6's of Fire damage probably drove the point home...and the fact shi was siding with someone who was just trying to kill her.

Also, I've been off meds for some time now, and may or may not be older than you.

[Selene]

Raging Gene Ray, please show me where V said "I hate your guts" to Miko.

Your meds are either wearing off or too strong, kid.

Well that was... rude.


@Luis: Am I understanding you correctly that you believe V did not *actively* want Miko dead? I agree with that. And I don't see it as a contradiction with "but since she's dead, I'm definitely not sad." I can think of at least one semi-recently deceased ruler whom I did not actively want dead. And yet I don't miss him and have not lost any sleep over his execution. I feel like V's attitude at that point was "oh, well. At least she's gone. No loss there."

@David: LOL. I liked Gilligan, too.

[Kish]

Well that was... rude.


@Luis: Am I understanding you correctly that you believe V did not *actively* want Miko dead? I agree with that. And I don't see it as a contradiction with "but since she's dead, I'm definitely not sad." I can think of at least one semi-recently deceased ruler whom I did not actively want dead. And yet I don't miss him and have not lost any sleep over his execution. I feel like V's attitude at that point was "oh, well. At least she's gone. No loss there."
If Luis wouldn't debate "Given the choice, Vaarsuvius would prefer that Miko be dead rather than alive," I wouldn't debate "Vaarsuvius likely put little energy into wanting Miko dead once s/he was no longer her prisoner." (Actually, I wouldn't debate that in any case.)

[Underground]

Miko of course.

Celia is very annoying, but Miko is even more annoying - AND murderous.

They are both very ignorant, but at least Celia is still clearly a goodhearted person.

If you are delusional about it, one question: given you had to sleep, whom would you rather have to guard over you ? Tip: Celia is NOT the one who kills people whenever she somehow got the idea they are evil.

[TerrickTerran]

I always liked Miko. Sure she could be a real pain, but somehow it simply worked for the character. I always felt a bit sorry for her and was quite sad when she died but she at least got a good death.

I've never particularly liked Celia. She's always managed to irritate me for some reason. I don't like her relationship with Roy and wouldn't mind at all if she ended up being killed if it would move the story along.

[David Argall]

given you had to sleep, whom would you rather have to guard over you ? Tip: Celia is NOT the one who kills people whenever she somehow got the idea they are evil.
Miko is quite clearly the one you want guarding you.

Celia has an Elan-like quality to her that suggests she would not recognize the attackers as a threat until after your throat is cut. So as a guard, she is worthless.
The idea that Miko would kill you in your sleep falls apart the closer you look. Her prime characteristic is lawful, and the duty of a guard is to keep you alive, even if to deliver you to execution. So she would not hurt you while she was guarding you. Note in this respect that Belkar made it to Azure City.
Note too that while Miko is quite willing to kill, we don't see her killing without reason [or maybe excuse]. Even in her killing of Shojo, she evolves an elaborate idea of why killing is necessary now. So the idea she is dangerous to the average person is paranoia. One might well find her unbearably annoying when one is awake, but the chance she would kill you in your sleep is trivial.

[LuisDantas]

Then why did you express an opinion on it?

To emphasize that it did not happen in the strip where it was claimed that it did, of course. :smallwink:


We're talking English here. "Vaarsuvius wanted Miko dead" is a phrase with a meaning that could be expressed as, "Vaarsuvius desired Miko to be dead" or "Vaarsuvius would have preferred if Miko had been dead rather than alive, at some point in their acquaintanceship"...but not "Vaarsuvius would kill Miko." That's a different phrase and a different meaning.

Indeed. And that is why it was important to both emphasize the difference in meaning, which the original argument failed to recognize, and to show that Vaarsuvius glee with Miko's death does not quite imply wanting her dead.

Sure, it is a subtle difference. But Vaarsuvius' attitude in that very strip that supposedly proved hir desire to see Miko dead instead made it clear that he will not go so far as to even claim to want Miko dead, much less actively desire it.


I gather that you believe that. However, as far as I can see, it's true under any reading except one which puts other words in place of "want" or "dead."

That means that you are wrong, I guess... :smallwink:


...huh?

O-Chul was in a very similar situation to Vaarsuvius' at that moment; he too felt unduly hampered and humiliated by Shojo (as in fact he was). He must have felt some relief in no longer having to deal with Shojo.

Vaarsuvius' relationship to Miko was not much different.

[LuisDantas]

Miko is quite clearly the one you want guarding you.

Not at all.

No way I would want Miko guarding me. Miko has a nasty habit of being assuming that she is above mistakes no matter what price others have to pay to conform to her views. And she is a proven and unrepenting murderer, too.

In fact, she was so even early on, killing fairly run-of-the-mill thieves basically because they bothered her. Sure, the OOtS never knew about that, but I do, and it hints of her eventual complete breakdown.

I specifically do not want such a person sleeping under the same ceiling as me, much less on guard duty.


Celia has an Elan-like quality to her that suggests she would not recognize the attackers as a threat until after your throat is cut. So as a guard, she is worthless.

That is an exaggeration, even considering her grave blunder at the golem shop. Celia has proven quite useful in battle, as well as a strategical asset. Her only real mistakes were daring to enter Greysky City against Haley's advice (and that was mainly Haley's fault, really) and failing to recognize the Golem Shop for what it was.

That last one was serious, I'll readily grant, but pales in comparison to Miko's failings.


The idea that Miko would kill you in your sleep falls apart the closer you look. Her prime characteristic is lawful, and the duty of a guard is to keep you alive, even if to deliver you to execution. So she would not hurt you while she was guarding you. Note in this respect that Belkar made it to Azure City.

Miko is barely Lawful at all, IF she was at all lawful. Self-righteous in guise of lawful is much more accurate, really. She was not even lawful enough to recognize that she had been arrested by fair reason.

You're forgetting, among other things, that Belkar is neither a true match for Miko in battle (even Belkar recognized that) nor did Miko ever have permission from Shojo to kill Belkar or any other member of the Order.


Note too that while Miko is quite willing to kill, we don't see her killing without reason [or maybe excuse].

Shojo and those thieves might well feel otherwise. As, incidentally, do I.


Even in her killing of Shojo, she evolves an elaborate idea of why killing is necessary now.

"Elaborate idea" means "cheap excuse"? If so, then you are completely right.


So the idea she is dangerous to the average person is paranoia.

I am indeed paranoid of self-righteous murderers. I am funny like that.


One might well find her unbearably annoying when one is awake, but the chance she would kill you in your sleep is trivial.

Says you.

[LuisDantas]

Let's briefly resume Miko's trajectory as seen in the webcomics, shall we?

(Incidentally, do Miko's lines in #174 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0174.html) and #200 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) really fit with Shojo's orders (described in #203 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html) and seen in #290 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html))? It seems to be either plot inconsistency or a degree of self-delusion on Miko's part.)

Her first appearance (#120 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html)) was ambiguous enough, but by #189 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html) she was already clearly far more motivated by pride than by any "lawful" or "good" ideals (she had no good reason to kill the thief leader, yet she did quite casually and even remarks that it is so).

In #214 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html) and #215 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) it becomes quite clear that Miko is barely lawful at all, and that much only because it is convenient for her amusement and pride. The one trait that she consistently shows is a desire to humiliate others.

#220 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0220.html) gives her opportunity to show just how lawful she is - and it turns out to be just enough to demand others to follow her expectations, but not to try and respect others'.

See also how poorly she deals with being questioned in #285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html); Durkon offers a very reasonable chance to think before acting and she flat out dismisses it, despite Durkon favoring her POV over Roy's twice before. In the last few panels she is quite simply a thug trying to scare her opponents.

As an aside: I refered earlier to O-Chul's humiliation under Shojo. It happens in #404 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html).

And finally, as of #406 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) Miko is pretty much insane already; her dialog with Hinjo shows her in deep delusion of grandeur, just before showing how little she actually respects the law. By this point she is very much nuts. And in #409 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) we see that her homicidal rage is not a spur of the moment thing, but a well-settled trait, which grows into full Messiah Complex by #460 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html).

[Kish]

To emphasize that it did not happen in the strip where it was claimed that it did, of course. :smallwink:

Why do I feel like I'm arguing (er, excuse me, I mean not-arguing) with Humpty Dumpty? First you say the fact that Vaarsuvius would prefer Miko dead rather than alive doesn't mean Vaarsuvius wants Miko dead. Then you deny that you're arguing over the matter even as you continue to argue over the matter.




Indeed. And that is why it was important to both emphasize the difference in meaning, which the original argument failed to recognize,

...that would be because no one had said "Vaarsuvius would kill Miko..."

and to show that Vaarsuvius glee with Miko's death does not quite imply wanting her dead.

Having done that, you should then show that cold is just as good for cooking food as heat is.



Sure, it is a subtle difference. But Vaarsuvius' attitude in that very strip that supposedly proved hir desire to see Miko dead instead made it clear that he will not go so far as to even claim to want Miko dead, much less actively desire it.

Wow. Just wow. As Raging Gene Ray pointed out, "I'm sorry I got caught" does not equate to guilt. You're claiming both that expressing glee at Miko's supposed death doesn't indicate Vaarsuvius wanted Miko dead, and that expressing embarrassment that Miko heard him/her say it indicates Vaarsuvius didn't want Miko dead? If I ever get put on trial for murder, and a dozen witnesses testify that a week before the victim was killed, I screamed at the top of my lungs, "I HOPE YOU DIE AND BURN IN HELL!" I hope you're on my jury.


That means that you are wrong, I guess... :smallwink:

Well, if you assert it it must be true. Regardless, I would not advise telling an employer who is currently causing you inconvenience that the thought of him dying causes you glee. That employer might not be interested in watching you spin how that actually meant you didn't want him dead.


O-Chul was in a very similar situation to Vaarsuvius' at that moment; he too felt unduly hampered and humiliated by Shojo (as in fact he was). He must have felt some relief in no longer having to deal with Shojo.

Vaarsuvius' relationship to Miko was not much different.
I'm glad I don't think you actually believe that in any context other than twisting Vaarsuvius' attitude toward Miko. What people say matters. We're not looking at a comic with no word balloons and making up our own equally-valid dialogue for them. Vaarsuvius said something that could be accurately paraphrased as, "I want Miko dead." O-Chul never indicated he felt anything negative toward his master. You can speculate about what he "must have" felt all you want, but that's nowhere near on the same level as something Vaarsuvius actually said.

[LuisDantas]

Well, if you concur that the original claim was a Strawman Fallacy, then I don't see anything else to discuss.

[Kish]

Well, if you concur that the original claim was a Strawman Fallacy, then I don't see anything else to discuss.
You're still spinning. There was certainly a strawman fallacy* early in this debate; it happened when you responded to "Vaarsuvius wanted Miko dead" as though it was "Vaarsuvius would kill Miko." Although, somewhat ironically, I agree with neither you nor Raging Gene Ray in the original, brief debate--him because he said the whole Order wanted Miko dead (Vaarsuvius and Belkar are the only two members of the Order that's established as true of, and I doubt very much it's true of Elan) and you because you said only Belkar did (no, Vaarsuvius did, too).

*strawman

noun
2. a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted [syn: straw man]

[David Argall]

killing fairly run-of-the-mill thieves basically because they bothered her.
Attempted murder is not generally classified as "bothered".


Her only real mistakes were daring to enter Greysky City against Haley's advice and failing to recognize the Golem Shop for what it was.
And completely misunderstanding a killer she meets on the street, and getting Haley into a lousy deal, and....

The main reason the list is not longer is that we have yet to see that much of Celia. No, Celia is the type to open the door in the middle of the night to a "candygram".



Miko is barely Lawful at all, IF she was at all lawful.
Now given she was a paladin up until 406, she was obviously lawful. And we have WoG that she was extremely lawful. Of course I have said often enough that what the writer intended to write does not mean he actually wrote that, but it is still a good indication. For an obvious case from the comic, we have the mattress tag joke. Miko's prime characteristic is Lawful.



She was not even lawful enough to recognize that she had been arrested by fair reason.
Since you are also calling her insane at that point, you rather contradict yourself.


You're forgetting, among other things, that Belkar is neither a true match for Miko in battle (even Belkar recognized that)
Irrelevant. Miko had Belkar as prisoner for some substantial number of nights. It didn't matter how much battle power Belkar had. He dies any time Miko felt like it.


nor did Miko ever have permission from Shojo to kill Belkar or any other member of the Order.
But this is a Lawful reason, which you are trying to deny Miko is. We have the same basic case you are wanting to judge. Miko had to have stood guard over Belkar on many nights, and Belkar survived it. The presumption you would survive her standing guard over you is extremely high.



"Elaborate idea" means "cheap excuse"?
While the idea of excuse can be supported, the text shows us rather clearly that Miko thinks she is reasoning clearly, and Roy accuses her of leaping to a wild conclusion, not of inventing a reason.
When we look at Miko's "reasoning", we find her leaping to a number of conclusions, but there is no twisting of the facts to produce the desired conclusion. Roy had "lied" about killing Xykon. Xykon had "associated" with Roy. Shojo and Roy were engaged in a conspiracy. The conclusion that Shojo and Xykon were in a conspiracy makes a kind of sense.
Then we have the fall. Miko is stunned by it. This was not supposed to happen to her. That attitude makes sense if she really believed what she said. She was removing an evil in the only effective way. When we talk of excuse, we talk of knowing one is guilty and thus a lack of surprise at being punished. Granted, one can be shocked at being caught, but we still have her acting like she was sure she was right.



Says you.
And says you, and the comic.
"The one trait that she consistently shows is a desire to humiliate others." means she is not going to kill you in your sleep when you will die without any humiliation. Clearly she would kick you awake at the least by your reasoning.
The comic also gives us the example of the sleeping ogres. Miko wants them awake before she attacks.
So the chance of her killing you in your sleep seems pretty zeroish by any of our reasonings.


(Incidentally, do Miko's lines in #174 and #200 really fit with Shojo's orders (described in #203 and seen in #290)? It seems to be either plot inconsistency or a degree of self-delusion on Miko's part.)
If you have to ask, it is writer flaw either way.
However, there seems no great difference here, and we might best say "neither". Any difference in wordage can be ascribed to different speakers and the casual use of words.
We also have the point that from all appearances, Miko was used to dealing with criminals where there was no need to bring them back for trial. Ordering her to bring the party in for trial should sound a lot like a crazy commander just making it hard on the actual worker who has to put up with such nonsense, but who is not going to make the situation harder than it has to be by over-obeying these insane orders.


(she had no good reason to kill the thief leader, yet she did quite casually and even remarks that it is so).
A fighter able to give Roy a tussle, and who is trying to kill you rather obviously qualifies as a good reason to kill.


In #214 and #215 it becomes quite clear that Miko is barely lawful at all, and that much only because it is convenient for her amusement and pride. The one trait that she consistently shows is a desire to humiliate others.
This can be described as a determination to twist the facts to find the very worst view one can. Miko acts in an extremely Lawful manner here. [Possibly you are thinking she ignores Roy's plan here, but Roy is still her prisoner, and thus subordinate. She issues the orders, and his plan is no more than a suggestion from her view.]
She comes up with a plan that is highly superior from both a LG and practical point of view. Morally, it allowed the ogres to demonstrate any reason they should not be killed, which was assumed to be unlikely, but still was at least worth checking. Practically, it turned a possibly difficult battle into a walk.


#220 gives her opportunity to show just how lawful she is - and it turns out to be just enough to demand others to follow her expectations, but not to try and respect others'.
V presents an absurd list of expenses and it is rejected. This is supposed to a crucial fault by Miko?



See also how poorly she deals with being questioned in #285; Durkon offers a very reasonable chance to think before acting and she flat out dismisses it, despite Durkon favoring her POV over Roy's twice before.
Durkon offers no reason that Miko respects. Indeed, this is a problem of the whole party. Roy directly denies appeals to values she holds and instead talks about things she doesn't. She is showing no problems with being questioned at all. One thug is getting his just desserts, and his pals want to stop the cop from carrying out her duty. We don't want the cop to pay much attention to their claims, and if they try force, we expect the cop to answer with force.


And finally, as of #406 Miko is pretty much insane already; her dialog with Hinjo shows her in deep delusion of grandeur, just before showing how little she actually respects the law. By this point she is very much nuts. And in #409 we see that her homicidal rage is not a spur of the moment thing, but a well-settled trait, which grows into full Messiah Complex by #460.
Insanity is effectively alignment free. It can affect any alignment. It is an excuse for Miko, not an accusation.

[LuisDantas]

Insanity is effectively alignment free. It can affect any alignment. It is an excuse for Miko, not an accusation.

That's an interesting understanding of insanity.

I'm afraid that it is not one that I can accept, however.

Many forms of insanity are very much the ultimate expression of one's personality and alignment. They sacrifice mental coherence in order to protect and express one's deeper traits.

That is quite clearly what happened with Miko - who, you'll notice, is usually very quick to claim her own judgement and perception as deeper and more reliable than anyone elses.

Her insanity wasn't even sudden, really. On the contrary, it is hinted at from very early on, arguably since she twisted Shojo's orders into "kill the OOtS".


Clearly she would kick you awake at the least by your reasoning.
The comic also gives us the example of the sleeping ogres. Miko wants them awake before she attacks.
So the chance of her killing you in your sleep seems pretty zeroish by any of our reasonings.

Uh? Am I supposed to find Miko a more reliable companion because she would rather kick me awake before slaying me than do the deed quietly? Really?

Also, you did notice that Miko only awoke the Ogres after having the whole OOtS ready at hand to back her up, Durkon and Vaarsuvius with their spells ready, and actually admits that her talk was at least in part a way of getting the ogres in place for a fireball and a lightning bolt, right?

That is not very honorable, to say the least. In fact, it is of very questionable ethics - as Roy rightfully pointed out at the occasion. Miko wanted to blurb out that she was honorable, but took good care to avoid the associated risks.

That is the classic behavior of a failed knight - one who knows about honorable warriors and attempts to be one of them... but just doesn't have what it takes when the chips fall down. She knows that she is supposed to be honorable and learned to perform some (actually, a lot of) stereotypical surface "honorable-like" behavior to back her own claims up... but her heart simply isn't in it: she's bloodthirsty and makes only the most token attempts at avoiding conflict. Too bad that she deluded herself to the point that she actually expects Hinjo and other paladins to follow her mistaken example.

[Assassin89]

Her insanity wasn't even sudden, really. On the contrary, it is hinted at from very early on, arguably since she twisted Shojo's orders into "kill the OOtS".

True, since Shojo had to give the order that the OotS had to be brought back alive in 290 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html).

I would not like to be near Miko if she ever get angry. The same applies for Celia. In short, never get a female angry.

[Kish]

Also, you did notice that Miko only awoke the Ogres after having the whole OOtS ready at hand to back her up, Durkon and Vaarsuvius with their spells ready, and actually admits that her talk was at least in part a way of getting the ogres in place for a fireball and a lightning bolt, right?

That is not very honorable, to say the least. In fact, it is of very questionable ethics - as Roy rightfully pointed out at the occasion.
Roy's plan was to ambush the ogres in their sleep. Are you seriously suggesting he judged the ethics of Miko's plan negatively?

[brilliantlight]

The thing about Miko is that Belkar went out of his way to push all her buttons and he is good at that. As RagingGene pointed out they were ACCUSED CRIMINALS so I don't have much problem with her treating them the way she did. She would have had every right to take away all their equipment and handcuff the lot the minute they surrendered. Killing her liege lord was unforgivable though. She should have at least tried to detect evil before attacking him. She should have arrested him and then handed him over to the authorities. To be fair to her :belkar: antics could have driven her insane.

Celia on the other hand is a complete ditz who does't have the common sense of a typical five year old. The whole Greysky fiasco was entirely her fault. If she wouldn't have been stupid enough not to listen to someone who spent years there and has also survived years of combat they would have been all right.

[MReav]

Celia on the other hand is a complete ditz who does't have the common sense of a typical five year old. The whole Greysky fiasco was entirely her fault. If she wouldn't have been stupid enough not to listen to someone who spent years there and has also survived years of combat they would have been all right.

It's mostly her fault. If Haley just said "I grew up there, it's a really bad place, plus I pissed off some powerful people who now want to kill me and anyone I might associate with.", she might have had Celia not go in, or exercise better judgment. She could have bluffed and claimed that there were no clerics powerful enough to raise Roy, because the ones that had any sense left the city.

[Selene]

If Luis wouldn't debate "Given the choice, Vaarsuvius would prefer that Miko be dead rather than alive," I wouldn't debate "Vaarsuvius likely put little energy into wanting Miko dead once s/he was no longer her prisoner." (Actually, I wouldn't debate that in any case.)

I don't remember asking what you would debate, or even asking you to stop debating. In fact, I kind of think maybe you *should* keep debating, as his later posts make me realize I have no clue what he's arguing. And I'm pretty sure he doesn't, either. Thanks, though.

FTR, I wished Miko dead the whole time she wasn't. :smallcool:


O-Chul was in a very similar situation to Vaarsuvius' at that moment; he too felt unduly hampered and humiliated by Shojo (as in fact he was). He must have felt some relief in no longer having to deal with Shojo.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/O-Chul.png Whew! Thank the Twelve Gods I don't have to clean that cat box any more!

[David Argall]

Uh? Am I supposed to find Miko a more reliable companion because she would rather kick me awake before slaying me than do the deed quietly? Really?
Killing you in your sleep is the crime you accuse her of. So the simple act of waking you means she is not guilty of that crime. And once wakened, you have various ways of possibly saving yourself, so its superiority is obvious.


Also, you did notice that Miko only awoke the Ogres after having the whole OOtS ready at hand to back her up, Durkon and Vaarsuvius with their spells ready,
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. The party was traveling as a group, and so of course they were there to back her up. It was not a matter of waiting for their arrival before she acted.


and actually admits that her talk was at least in part a way of getting the ogres in place for a fireball and a lightning bolt, right?

That is not very honorable, to say the least.
How so?
Miko put herself, not anyone else, at the point of maximum danger.
Her trap could be foiled by the ogres refusing to "take advantage of her".


In fact, it is of very questionable ethics - as Roy rightfully pointed out at the occasion.
Roy suggests a plan of clear moral inferiority. Possibly morally acceptable, but definitely morally inferior.
Roy asks if she was bluffing about honor and she says she meant every word she said.



Too bad that she deluded herself to the point that she actually expects Hinjo and other paladins to follow her mistaken example.
She not just expects. She knows, because they do do as she orders. It's no delusion. "Teacher is going to keep us after school...Yes ma'am...yes ma'am." Whatever her formal position, she treats the other paladins, and is treated by them as if she were in charge.

[Tmabbbb]

I like Miko far more. In real life, I would not like to have either Miko or Celia near me, but as a character, Miko was a very significant character. I felt sorry for her in that everything she believed in failed. She always tried to serve the greater good, even if her methods were inefficient. And she ultimately died in support of her cause. Meanwhile, Celia is the foil who just causes trouble. After helping the Order back in Dorukan's dungeon, Celia has done a total of one positive thing. Defending the Order made no difference as the trial was rigged (and though a fair case was made, Haley was right; they should have normally been found guilty). The only positive thing she did was convince Haley to leave Azure City, as she made a decent case. Further, the entire Greysky incident was her fault, as was wasting Haley's money on the truce. In conclusion, I strongly prefer Miko over Celia, especially since Miko was a profound character.

[brilliantlight]

It's mostly her fault. If Haley just said "I grew up there, it's a really bad place, plus I pissed off some powerful people who now want to kill me and anyone I might associate with.", she might have had Celia not go in, or exercise better judgment. She could have bluffed and claimed that there were no clerics powerful enough to raise Roy, because the ones that had any sense left the city.

If I went to a foreign country and a friend of mine who grew up there says the city I want to go to is unsafe you can be damn sure I won't go there even if he doesn't explain why. I would assume he knows wha he is talking about and isn't telling me it is a bad idea just for kicks.

[Blue Ghost]

In other threads, I have previously stated my disdain for Miko, even going as far as calling her a "blackguard." But in fact, Miko is one of my favorite characters in OOTS. She was one of the few who inspired me, though it was to anger and indignation. Miko is representative of the "Lawful Stupid" type of people, common both in D&D paladins and in real life: those people who, while devoted to the cause of good, are too self-righteous to judge themselves and find their own faults, and are so blindly devoted to Good that they forget what being good means: showing love and mercy. I applaud the Giant for including Miko in the strip, and placing her in the role that such people should be: antagonists.

As for Celia, she fails to move me or inspire me at all. I am rather confused by her naivete and inconsistent behavior. It appears that she is supposed to represent the people who are so concerned about their moral code that they hinder the greater good? If that is so, I believe that Celia fails in that role. Her stupidity has nothing to do with her being Lawful Good.

[dps]

If the question is, "Which of the 2 do you like better as a character?" then I'd say Miko--she was more consistantly written. On the other hand, if the question is "Which of the 2 would you like better if you had to deal with them in real life?" then I'd prefer Celia--she might be a ditz and could definately be annoying, but she at least shows some concern and respect for the people around her.

[hamishspence]

whilw Celia's "will not kill, even when her life or a friends is at risk" approach is atypical for D&D (to say the least) its a common trope in other fantasy.

Powerful alien races in the more fantasy-ish Sci-fi sometimes take this approach, with the most extreme example being in Star Trek: Destiny series- the aliens won't kill, or allow other sentients to die by ommission, even when the other sentients (humans in this case) are the aggressor.

[Janmorel]

I like Miko better as a character. She was a "love to hate" character that was fun to root against. Celia is, theoretically at least, one of the good guys. She's just an incredibly inept good guy who never gets any of the good jokes and tends to stall the plot out of "moral obligation." She doesn't seem like a bad person, but she's not that much fun to watch either.

Obviously, others' mileage may vary.

[Eldariel]

The two are among my favourite characters thus far, but I'd say Celia edges ahead since she lacks the "destroy the world due to stupidity/lack of Wis"-résumé thus far. Definitely very well-developed, interesting characters bursting hilarity though.

[hamishspence]

Having read SoD intro by Miko- my conclusion is, even if it exaggerates her personality slightly, she is not a safe person to be around for almost anyone, not just the Evil. (was her at end of Paladin Blues)

[Lord Seth]

Celia seems to have little personality, honestly, other than being a plot device. The only time I can remember she wasn't being used for that was when she was dating Roy, and during that time I can't remember any personality whatsoever from her.

It doesn't help that the story has been horribly lagging after Azure City. I might have put up with her more if it didn't feel like the story was deliberately being dragged out just so the next book ends with Roy coming back.

[derfenrirwolv]

Something that occured to me is what if miko's "player" decided to go to the other extreme of the awfull good, kill all evil types and instead went to the pacifistic "its wrong and unlawfull to kill" extreme.

[Kish]

Something that occured to me is what if miko's "player" decided to go to the other extreme of the awfull good, kill all evil types and instead went to the pacifistic "its wrong and unlawfull to kill" extreme.
Aside from the fact that no one in the comic actually has players...I think such explanations for the characters' actions sell them hugely short by effectively short-circuiting any analysis of why the character (in this case, Celia or Miko) thinks in a given way.

[hamishspence]

yes, this isn't Darths and Droids (which I also like, for different reasons) There are no Players in that sense, and no OOC dialogue.

[brilliantlight]

If the question is, "Which of the 2 do you like better as a character?" then I'd say Miko--she was more consistantly written. On the other hand, if the question is "Which of the 2 would you like better if you had to deal with them in real life?" then I'd prefer Celia--she might be a ditz and could definately be annoying, but she at least shows some concern and respect for the people around her.

In real life? Celia all the way, she won't kill me under any circumstances. You certainly can't say that about Miko.

[jeffh]

Aside from the fact that no one in the comic actually has players...I've heard that said before, but doesn't that render the assorted anachronisms/pop culture references pretty inexplicable? For example, how would Roy know about Japan when he first met Miko?

[Zevox]

I've heard that said before, but doesn't that render the assorted anachronisms/pop culture references pretty inexplicable? For example, how would Roy know about Japan when he first met Miko?
The 4th wall does not exist in this comic. That's pretty much all you need to know for those to make sense. The characters - or at bare minimum all the PCs - are all aware they exist within a webcomic, and are aware of whatever information about our world the Giant wants them to be aware of. They're simply that genre-savvy.

Zevox

[Ninjamuffin]

The problem with Miko is that everyone tries to apply logic to her actions.
She was insane. Blindingly so. She believed she was a conduit for her Gods in such a way that her will was actually their will through her. Obviously, not so.
Even her feelings of rage and bloodlust were thought to be good things because of where they were directed, at those who were evil.
People who thought differently from her were classed in two ways: Those who knew the Gods' plan better than she did (Shojo, other higher up paladins,) and those who were evil. Until the Order showed up, this worked out great.
The problem arose when her bloodlust got the best of her. Obviously, if she felt the need to kill these people, the Gods must want her to. These people resisted her, a messenger from the Gods! Surely no good being would do that. She only manages to resist killing them because Shojo, who knows the Gods' plan better than her, said not to.
Skip ahead, and she finds that Shojo has lied to her. This upsets her and bloodlust rears its head. Bloodlust, of course, being a divine mandate from the Gods to kill someone. Of course, Shojo still knows the Gods better. Unless, of course, he lied about that too. He's a liar. He's in league with the evil Order! Her bloodlust had been correct since the beginning! The Gods want her to smite the evildoers and this new feeling of bloodlust means Shojo is included.
Then, she falls and hits a snag in her thinking. She was wrong. But, the Gods told her to do it. The Gods can't be wrong, so she must be right. But she fell. So she's wrong. But the Gods told her to do it. So she's right, but she fell anyway? This must be part of the Gods' plan! It's the only explanation!
Then, she sees the throne room. All the other paladins have failed, and the last one left alive is trying, but unable, to destroy the gate. The Gods did have a plan. Had she not fallen, she would have been with the rest and unable to sneak up on the enemy. She fell so she could stop the evil.
So, she stops it.
Perfect logic, provided you are insane. By sane people's reasoning, not so much.
So, yeah, I have no problem with Miko. She did what she was supposed to do and she was even a little sympathetic in her insanity. At least, I think so.
Celia, I'm not so sure about. She just sorta........ spoiled. She's got a Can't argue with Slyphs (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleukqnnj0yvqci?from=Main.CantArgueWithElves) thing going on, which is a bit annoying. And she has a weird sort of 'I place myself above my 'friends' (I use the term lightly) but I place my enemies above myself.' attitude.
Basically, she thinks she's the party leader with all the logical things that entails, if one didn't have any experience or knowledge of how parties work beyond 'listen to the leader'.
This is probably because of Haley's lack of leading. Power vacuum and all that. Haley isn't going to stand this much longer, methinks, and will reassert her dominance as leader.
Actually, that's probably Celia's main purpose at this point, to make Haley step up to the leading plate.
We will see how that works out. When it does, I imagine most people will still be divided on her character, but all will realize that you don't nee to like a character for them to be a good thing, story wise.

[Selene]

Ninjamuffin, that was probably the best walk-though of Miko's thought processes ever. And I agree that she was an important, well-written character. Also, I hate her. LOL.

Excuse me now, while I go sit on a lawn somewhere with Celia and sing Give Peace a Chance. :smalltongue: