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Crow
2009-01-11, 02:34 PM
So one of my players is a monk who comes from a historically very influential family (Though the family has declined drastically since) in one of my world's cities. Recently, this character, let's call him Rick, returned home to find that while away for so many years, his father (the head of the family) died, and his mother had re-married. This time to the head of a rival family within the city. Needless to say, the new husband was a little bummed when Rick returned to town, in perfect position to take over as head of the family. After some underhanded dealings designed to remove Rick from the picture, the two men decided to have a sit-down to resolve the situation. After much wrangling, Rick had agreed to renounce his claim to be the family patriarch, and any control of his family's assets, in exchange for about 1000 platinum to "travel on".

So the player wasn't interested in being in charge of the family. No big deal, problem solved. Or so I thought.

Apparently, Rick decided that this 1000 platinum would be a perfect cushion to fund a sojourn to a far-off kingdom in search for a wife. The plan being, that he will marry into an influential family and secure for himself a position of nobility within this foreign kingdom. I *think* he plans to use his position as a blooded member of the nobility in his home kingdom as bait to get himself a good wife and a fat dowry (or the other way around). The problem is that he has publicly renounced any claim he has to his family's assets.

I had bounced around the notion that he didn't fully understand what he was doing when he took the 1000 platinum bribe, but he seemed very coherant and aware when doing it. As I said before, I thought that he wasn't interested in being nobility, but now he seems hell-bent on doing so again, just in a different kingdom. I have a feeling that there is some plan that I am not quite aware of going on here. As DM, I am trying to figure out what exactly is going on, so as to be ready for it, and to be able to provide a fun gaming experience. He is lawful-evil, so maybe he is just trying to snag a fat dowry and run? No idea here.

When we left off, he was just arriving in the new kingdom. What the hell is Rick up to???

I plan on asking to player myself, but I thought it would be interesting to see what others thought about what was going on.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-01-11, 02:44 PM
Maybe Rick will claim that he was magically coerced into renouncing his position after he returns with his new family ties. That'd be my first thought. Or maybe he'll try to assassinate mommy's new sugar daddy, in typical LE fashion. Btw, what does mommy say about all this?

TS

Dixieboy
2009-01-11, 02:49 PM
1000 platinium?!

What kind of noble family can afford to just give that away?

What level is this dewd??

And what about the other characters, is he just dragging them around as cohorts while he goes to start out a new line of aristocracy? That takes time, time that could be spend murdering dragons

Adumbration
2009-01-11, 02:52 PM
Renouncing his claim to be the clan patriarch and giving up the family assets does not mean that he is no longer the heir of the family - and everything it pertains. Assuming the new patriarch has no children of his own, the player remains to be the eldest son, and thus will eventually inherit not only the assets of his own clan, but also those of the new patriarch.

This is the way I see it from what you've described; it's possible that I'm missing on some information or that I've misunderstood something.

Keld Denar
2009-01-11, 03:18 PM
How far is new kingdom from old kingdom? A sufficently talented Bluff check could con everyone into believing that he still has all he had. I mean, hes got all the upbringing and manerisms plus all of his *snicker* monkly abilities. He could easily present himself as quite the catch for some future daddy-in-law to hook up his daughter with. 5000g would allow him to set himself up nicely as a visiting noble, and go a long way to convince others that his coffers are really deeper than 5k.

Just my observation. That or Rick is just out to convince a new gal that he's never gonna give her up, and never gonna say goodbye. He'll tell her that he will never run around, or desert her.

monty
2009-01-11, 03:20 PM
Just my observation. That or Rick is just out to convince a new gal that he's never gonna give her up, and never gonna say goodbye. He'll tell her that he will never run around, or desert her.

I see what you did there.

RTGoodman
2009-01-11, 03:33 PM
I don't know the character or the player, but to me it sounds like perhaps Rick is hoping to get in good with his "new family" and then maybe use his position as "rightful heir" to his original kingdom to instigate a war to consolidate BOTH under his power. I mean, if he plays it off well enough he could probably convince folks that he was FORCED to give up his original rights, and by invading and taking over the old place he's just doing what's right to get what was so wrongly taken from him.

valadil
2009-01-11, 04:51 PM
I think he could pretty easily claim that the renouncement was false. Maybe it was a lie or maybe it was coerced. But he renounced nothing and wants to get back the power that was taken. And he just needs some other noble family's backing to do so.

Stephen_E
2009-01-11, 05:13 PM
I'd point out that even if he isn't trying to pull a fast one and build a posistion to go back and take his inheritance, agreeing to give up claim to the families assets doesn't automatically remove him from the inheritance line, and even if it included a clause of abdication him from the inheritance line it doesn't change his bloodline.

For example King Edward the 8th of Britain specifically had to abdicate the throne, removed himself and his descendants from the inheritance line and even then retained considerable prestige. In past (less legalistic) times even such an action would not've removed him, or his descendants from the possibility of making an end run for the throne.

Stephen E

holywhippet
2009-01-11, 05:18 PM
I think he could pretty easily claim that the renouncement was false. Maybe it was a lie or maybe it was coerced. But he renounced nothing and wants to get back the power that was taken. And he just needs some other noble family's backing to do so.

But he's lawful evil. Telling a big lie like that would be a gross breach of his alignment. It would prevent him from continuing to level up as a monk.

At a wild guess, he wants to be part of a rich and powerful family, but doesn't want his step father to be looking for a chance to knife him in the back. Of course, there's nothing saying he won't run into such a problem in the new kingdom - rival suitors and all that.

Dervag
2009-01-11, 05:25 PM
1000 platinium?!

What kind of noble family can afford to just give that away?One that is very rich, or one that is very nervous.

If this guy poses a major threat to the current "head of the family," by undermining his control, it might be worth 1000 platinum just to make the guy go away. Offering someone a large fraction of the family fortune to make sure they don't hang around and try to take all of it can be a good investment.


But he's lawful evil. Telling a big lie like that would be a gross breach of his alignment. It would prevent him from continuing to level up as a monk.Debatable. A lot depends on circumstances. There are plenty of cases of Lawful Evil characters swearing to something and then springing through a loophole.


At a wild guess, he wants to be part of a rich and powerful family, but doesn't want his step father to be looking for a chance to knife him in the back. Of course, there's nothing saying he won't run into such a problem in the new kingdom - rival suitors and all that.That's quite possible; it occured to me too.

Doomsy
2009-01-11, 05:39 PM
Technically, Rick is still nobility. In times of revolution or just bad luck it was not unheard of for even royal families to end up 'lords without a land'. Traditionally they could get shelter in other kingdoms and continue to marry or plot, but usually it ended up nowhere. Other nobles just kept up the tradition because, well, they might need the same hospitality or their descendants might someday.

Even if they negotiated away his rights to be the clan head and all of that other stuff, he is still the highest true born noble in the area. He could easily get a minor marriage to another noble house in another area just from that alone, depending on how highly regarded his family was.

RS14
2009-01-11, 05:45 PM
But he's lawful evil. Telling a big lie like that would be a gross breach of his alignment. It would prevent him from continuing to level up as a monk.

I disagree completely. That's like arguing that keeping oaths should cause a chaotic character to become lawful.

To dissect this particular case, Rick may believe in keeping oaths, but only with his countrymen. As soon as he sets up elsewhere, he becomes free to break oaths, because he's now just fine with breaking oaths with those people, and that's within the scope of lawfulness.

Of course, I also recall a thread in which someone argues, in sequence, that one particular action is each possible alignment. Alignment has issues.

Rei_Jin
2009-01-11, 05:59 PM
Hmmm...

You said that his family WAS highly influential, but have declined somewhat. What if he believes that there wasn't enough worth keeping with his family, once you include what would be expected of him as head of the house?

That 1,000 platinum pieces was probably a hefty chunk of their wealth. Now that he's taken it, they'll have lands, and taxes, and the costs of upkeep.

Of which he has no part in.

So he takes that 1,000 platinum, and goes to a foreign land. He's still the head of the house, and will inherit, regardless of what deals he made, unless he renounces him rights as firstborn, which he didn't do. He very specifically renounced his claim to be the family patriarch, and any control of his family's assets. No change to inheritance there.

When his mother dies of old age, and his step-father dies in a nasty accident, he inherits everything.

Of course, he may not even care about that if he marries into a wealthy estate and takes control of that instead.

That PC has pulled a swift one on his step-father, and he loses nothing except responsibility. Gee, such a hardship.

Crow
2009-01-12, 07:06 PM
The man who mommy married comes from one of the top families in the city. 10,000 gold (1,000 platinum) is a lot, but well within his means. While Rick's family has declined, their assets are still worth far more than 10,000 gold (The price of a single sailing ship).

Rick signed over his right to become family patriarch and any claim he had to the family's assets, so yes, he did sign over his hereditary rights. Not that this prevents him from trying to pull one over on a far-away kingdom. Now if he has plans to take down his step-father, it doesn't matter. But right now, his step-father is in control of his family's assets, and has the legal wherewithal to enforce it.

Basically, any action on his part would seem to require the removal of his step-father in some capacity or another. A lot of interesting theories have been put forth, and I thank you all for your input.

Tacoma
2009-01-12, 07:11 PM
At least one of those platinum coins had to be handled by the patriarch. He's going to make a clone of the patriarch, or simulacrum or whatever, and replace the patriarch with it. All he needs is a smudge of DNA ...

Altima
2009-01-12, 07:21 PM
An alibi. Being in a new kingdom, hopefully with a (minor) noble (if not wealthy) house gives him plenty of opportunity. For example, many merchant families (wealthy, but not nobility) would jump at an opportunity to be acknowledged into the upper class. If they have enough money, their peers won't truly care that it's a foreign nobility.

Also, foreign assassins have less qualms about taking out nobles (and possibly destabilizing the area) than the natives.

Of course, with that much gold, he could get a teleport, a polymorph spell (or alter self or disguise or whatever), head back home, 'suicide' the new head of the family with a new will stating that Rick is the new 'heir'.

Crow
2009-01-12, 08:59 PM
Good ones! Luckily our hero doesn't have very easy access to spellcasters (in my world). =)

Canadian
2009-01-12, 09:05 PM
I'd wager the new daddy would be wanting to take back that 1000 platinum and have junior vanish during his travels.