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Heliomance
2009-01-11, 05:20 PM
If one were to try and build a (non magical) mobility and acrobatics focused build, how would they go about it?

I'm thinking of a character that could be anywhere on the battlefield at a moment's notice, ducking and weaving around skirmishes to get where they're needed, and being useful when they get there.

Scout seems like something of a no-brainer, if you're going to be focused on mobility, as it's what they were designed for. Something that lets you change direction on a charge would also be good. Naturally, you'd need tumble, jump, climb and balance out the wazoo.

This is a purely theoretical build at the moment, just wanted to see what the Playground could come up with. If I ever did play it, though, I'd probably do it with some sort of Fey, as that way in the (homebrew) world I'd do it in, the character would get access to racial feats that would let it do things like run along cobwebs and run across people's heads.

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Frog Dragon
2009-01-11, 05:40 PM
Twisted charge skill trick from CSCO would fill the change direction in charge thing

Eldariel
2009-01-11, 05:45 PM
I'd use a ToB class focused around strikes. That allows you to use a single move action already each turn. Then I'd focus on any and all swift/immediate move providing actions (everything from Sudden Leap to Quicksilver Motion) with a quick dip in Barbarian and maybe Druidic Avenger or Fist of the Forests to pump the base speed up. I'd overload on skill tricks (basically everything you're looking for is there) such as Twisted Charge, Acrobatic Backstab and so on, and combine that with all your maneuvers to basically be anywhere you need to be at any time. Really, this is probably the best realization of the concept as you have a wide array of acrobatic maneuvers that you can use once per fight making you use a huge amount of versatility and theatrics as you go about doing a different thing each turn but all related to being everywhere at once and doing something awesome.

The non-ToB option is Scout+Ranger > Dervish (a very solid character build to be honest; 6 levels of Scout+Ranger gets you two bonus feats and with Swift Hunter, +2d6/+1 Skirmish which qualifies you for Improved Skirmish which Dervish can always activate) or Scout+Ranger with Cleric-dip for Travel Devotion (or both). Both basically take move actions while full attacking or even more than move actions when doing single attacks. Acrobatic Strike from PHBII is a nice addition requiring 12 ranks in Tumble; allows you to Tumble past an opponent and do attacks with +4. Combine that with Dervish and all your attacks are done at +4.


Really, the problem with the latter is that every cool thing it wants to do requires a feat (which are already in short supply). The former build can get all that from maneuvers and skill tricks (although the latter can use skill tricks too of course) allowing you to focus your actual feats on whatever the hell you want. It's really too bad skill tricks and maneuvers weren't in core; they really expand character build options in a way that just plain makes the game friggin' awesome.

Keld Denar
2009-01-11, 05:48 PM
I've been suggesting it a lot lately...but swordsage? Desert Wind has a lot of mobility manevuers, Shadow Hand has teleports, and Tiger Claw has the whole leaping thing. Nothing says you can't tumble as part of a jump, and leaping into a twirling sommersault threw the blades of a foe to come down behind him to utilize you momentum to deliver devestating blows, before turning into a flame and racing around someone, burning them up with the heat you generate, before teleporting above them, diving down again with a slashing blow. Battle Jump from Unapproachable East would be killer here.

Does anyone have a Sublime Scout homebrew? I know there is a Sublime Ranger floating around some where. Otherwise, if you could make up some feat like Sublime Skirmisher, which allows your Scout and Swordsage levels to stack to determine your Skirmish damage. Then you could do like, Scout4/Swordsage16 with the Improved Skirmish feat, and maybe like, Staggering Strike while shredding things with like, a Falcheon or something. Hmmm, I like this. Possible?

Curmudgeon
2009-01-11, 05:50 PM
You'll want the maximum base speed you can get before enhancements. A Varag (Monster Manual IV) starts with 60' speed, plus racial Run and Spring Attack feats; but of course there are other options for race.

The Quick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) trait is obvious; it gives you +10'. One level of Barbarian gives another +10' (and precludes the cheesy Lion Spirit Totem option in Complete Champion). One level of Cleric gives two domains: Celerity grants another +10' and the Expeditious Retreat spell for a temporary speed enhancement; and Travel gives the Longstrider spell for long-term speed enhancement, plus an on-demand subset of what Freedom of Movement offers. This latter power is Supernatural, so it and the spells don't fit your non-magical requirement; think of them as free bonuses with the Celerity boost. But you can trade the Travel domain to get the Travel Devotion feat for free; plus burn undead turning attempts to use the ability more times per day (though those extras are inherently Supernatural, hence magical). The three of these together give +30' to your racial base speed, and work even in an Antimagic Field. The Dash feat is relatively wimpy, but does give another +5'. A Varag plus all of the above moves at 95' without magic, and can run 475' in a round.

A Monk (or a character with lots of Use Magic Device) can train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide) to forever after enable the option of a 10' step in place of a 5' adjustment. Or you can make a DC 40 10' Tumble adjustment in place of a 5' step. That expands your "not an action" movement options from 8 other squares to 20, and also enables full attacks with skirmish for a Scout. The Dummy is magical, but the benefits are just Extraordinary.

I won't go into other maneuverability options except to mention the Thief-Acrobat PrC (Complete Adventurer). This ought to get you started.

Harperfan7
2009-01-11, 06:00 PM
Um, Monk?

I know people on these forums think monks are the worst things ever, but if you want an acrobatic mobility based skirmisher type who isn't a scout, monk is the way to go.

Really, if you can get around the alignment, monks with the right build are the perfect bandits.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-11, 06:17 PM
Um, Monk?

I know people on these forums think monks are the worst things ever, but if you want an acrobatic mobility based skirmisher type who isn't a scout, monk is the way to go. This depends on how stringently the OP means "non magical". Abundant Step is a nifty ability, but it's Supernatural and thus won't function in an Antimagic Field.

Plus Monks have a hard time achieving the stated "being useful when they get there" criterion. :smallfrown:

But hey, a 1-level Monk dip will let the character train with the Sparring Dummy of the Master, so the class doesn't have to be completely neglected.

shadowfox
2009-01-11, 06:21 PM
Scout is a definite; Swashbuckler and Monk also have their advantages, since Swashbucklers gain Acrobatic Charge eventually (allowing them to charge through terrain, or lack thereof, that they normally wouldn't be allowed to do), and Monks are... well, you know. They get fast.

Honestly, I'd suggest a Scout that focuses on ranged combat. Give it a longbow (or, if you really want, Greatbow (Complete Warrior/Races of the Wild). Then, as soon as possible, start taking levels in the Order of the Bow Initiate; it's Ranged Precision ability applies to a single attack (it's a Standard Action to use), so it stacks with the Skirmish bonuses. If you were to do this, these feats would also be in your interest:

Point Blank Shot (just take it!)
Weapon Focus (short, long, or greatbow; either normal or composite)
Precise Shot (required for Order of the Bow Initiate; plus, it's useful)
Rapid Shot (required for Order of the Bow Initiate)
Swift Tumbler (Cityscape; Tumble speed increases to (1/2 speed + 10 feet), Prerequisite: 7 ranks in Tumble)
Shot on the Run (and its needed prerequisites)
Improved Initiative (can't hurt)
Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel; Prerequisite: Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC; if you move at least 20 feet away from where you started your turn, your Skirmish damage increased by 2d6 and the AC bonus increases by 2 (can count as one of a Scout's bonus feats))


I've actually done a Scout character just like it. The campaign didn't run for too long (none of the ones at school did, not when you had an hour a week to run campaign), but even though he was low level, he could dish out a good deal of damage. Since he was mobile, he didn't get bogged down anywhere, and he always supported the team. The only downside is that, although such a build can deal a lot of damage, it's limited to one target.

Now, if a ranged Scout/Order of the Bow Initiate isn't what you're looking for, then you might want to look into either a Monk with two-weapon fighting feats, plus the Spring Attack feats (I recall looking through the PHBII and seeing feats that further improve upon how many attacks you can make). Or you can do it as a Scout, or, even better, a Fighter.

To go along with the Fighter build, and give him a half-decent Dexterity. Go into the Two-Weapon Fighting feats (as far as you can go in), and also take Oversized Weapon Fighting (Complete Warrior; a one-handed weapon wielded in your off-hand counts as a light weapon for determining two-weapon fighting penalties). Wears light armor (or any metal Medium Armor made of Mithral), has Boots of Striding and Springing, and maybe even take Dash once or twice. If Traist (Unearthed Arcana) are allowed, the the "Quick" Trait would help with speed (+10 feet to base land speed, -1 HP per level). At any rate, good HD, lots of feats, and can also expand elsewhere. I also recall a feat that allowed fighter-scout multiclassing to go along a lot smoother (both Scout and Fighter levels stack when trying to determine certain bonuses (a Fighter 2/Scout 2 player with this feat could take Weapon Specialization, for instance), but I'm not sure if it also counts towards Skirmish bonuses...

I mean, that's just a couple right there. You could also fiddle with Duelists if you're not into Swashbucklers, since they also (eventually) gain Acrobatic Charge.

That's really all I can think of right now...

Big Edit:
Fleet of Foot- allows you to make a single turn during a run or charge (up to a 90 degree turn); can't be used in Medium or Heavy armor; during a charge, you must move at least 10 feet after the turn to "maintain the charge."
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Run
-Complete Warrior, page 99 on in the left column-

(Sorry, citing source due to paranoia of legal action)
I believe you mentioned wanting a feat that would allow a turn during a charge. This would be it.

Edit 2: taking out the recommendation of taking the Dash feat.

dspeyer
2009-01-11, 06:27 PM
A good race can be handy here. Personally, I'm fond of wyrmling brass dragons: walk=60, burrow=30 and fly=150 for only 2 LA (and 4 RHD, but they're pretty good RHD). They're also tiny, which allows them to share a square with a medium creature or fit through a 1' tunnel without penalty. Plus they're just fun. Sprites are also good.

If you're looking to go through battlefields, skill mastery(tumble) is your friend. I think the cheapest way to get this with a 1-level dip into exemplar, but there might be better ones.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-11, 06:31 PM
and maybe even take Dash once or twice. Not a useful suggestion.
If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once.

shadowfox
2009-01-11, 06:35 PM
Not a useful suggestion.

Ah, thank you, good catch there. For some reason, I thought you could take it multiple times. I shall make yet another edit...

Heliomance
2009-01-11, 06:40 PM
By non-magical, I basically meant no Nightcrawler impressions, and can still function in an AMF. Otherwise, i'm sure a Focused Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt does it better. I want the kind of character that you try and hit only to find they've just rolled between your legs or vaulted over your head, or whatever.

It occurs to me that decreasing size could be useful, and taking some of the giant-fighting feats.

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Berserk Monk
2009-01-11, 06:50 PM
Yeah, monk. Crazy base land speed bonus, plus they get the skills that help. Either that or maybe a dervish (see complete warrior). You could also try and figure out a way to give your character flight that way he could just fire arrows from above and soar anywhere with ease. Of course, figuring out how to fly without magic is kind of hard.

Keld Denar
2009-01-11, 06:52 PM
By non-magical, I basically meant no Nightcrawler impressions, and can still function in an AMF. Otherwise, i'm sure a Focused Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt does it better. I want the kind of character that you try and hit only to find they've just rolled between your legs or vaulted over your head, or whatever.


Ok, well, that takes the Shadow Hand teleports out of my idea, but you still have the Tiger Claw leaps and the Desert Wind speed. Also, there is the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick (CSc) which allows you to make somone flatfooted when you tumble through their square. Thats exactly what you want with the tumble betwix the legs and stabbing for the groin. Doesn't too too much if you don't have some form of SA or Skirmish damage though...Maybe Assassin's Stance + Shadow Blade?

Yukitsu
2009-01-11, 07:08 PM
I made a rather bizzare character once that did this. It was 2 levels monk, 3 levels scout, 1 level cleric, 14 levels ranger. Took the feats dodge, mobility, combat reflexes, improved trip, stunning fist, elusive target, swift hunter, robilar's gambit, snap kick, defensive throw, travel devotion and some other stuff that I can't recall. Monk should use the decisive strike variant, and the ranger should take the variant that gets feats instead of casting.

If the fight is easy, activate a belt of battle to gain an extra move action. Use a full round action to hit something random, and move past as many enemies as possible. For every attack of opportunity they take, you get one attack of opportunity, a trip attempt, and on a succesful trip attempt, another attack. All of these deal twice the normal damage of a standard attack+ skirmish damage. Due to the nature of snap kick, you get another attack with your unarmed strike afterwards. For more serious fights, you can activate travel devotion instead of your belt of battle, which lasts 10 rounds. End your move next to someone every round. On his turn when he attacks you, you can do the exact same sequence that you did on your turn to him, though this sacrafices AoOs that you would normally use on your next turn. When your turn next comes up, decisive strike him while he's down, and provoke from all of his buddies.

Your money should almost all go into increasing your AC and your dexterity. Since you are trying to soak up shots, this is important to a degree. Your DM will try to shaft this character by not attempting attacks of opportunity any more, but you can get around this to some degree by being decent in combat anyway, as far as damage goes. If you feel he is avoiding taking attacks of opportunities enough, take stand still, and try and force the choice. Either they attack you, or they don't attack anybody.

Heliomance
2009-01-11, 08:25 PM
That sounds really quite fun, and leaves quite the swathe of destruction behind you. You'd need to invest in tumble so you can get close to characters with reach and not provoke the AoO until you can actually reach them to attack them.

Thurbane
2009-01-11, 08:35 PM
Catfolk Barbarian/Scout with Catfolk Pounce?

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-12, 01:08 AM
Monk or Scout into the Thief Acrobat prestiege class (complete adventurer). Thief Acrobat is the most movement-related class I know of that doesn't use magic. You get to take 10 on basically all movement skills, stand from prone as a free action, move at full speed while balancing and a bunch of other goodies. Check it out. All it requires is Evasion and some skill ranks.

Eldariel
2009-01-12, 01:18 AM
Catfolk Barbarian/Scout with Catfolk Pounce?

Oooh, this made me think:

Barbarian 4/Fist of the Forests 3/Bear Warrior 10/whatever 3 (say, Warshaper) with Snow Tiger Berserker (Fist of the Forests in Complete Champion, Bear Warrior in Complete Warrior, Snow Tiger Berserker in Unapproachable East)! Because Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attacks are considered Light Weapons, Snow Tiger Berserker gets you full pounce and Barbarian + Fist of the Forests both give you +10' (not enhancement!) bonus to your speed, making you a 60'-moving pouncing BEAR (Bear's base movement is 40') starting from level 8 (and you get to finish all your Prestige Classes too!). Oh yeah, and you can stack enhancement bonuses on top of that. Say, dip Scout.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-12, 10:36 AM
Catfolk is a good choice for race, as it's got 40' base speed with only LA +1, but that limits you to Ranger builds as that's the Catfolk favored class.

Varags (60' base speed) have Scout as their favored class, but have LA +2 and also 3 racial hit dice, for a total of 5 class levels lost. Monster Manual IV has a racial class progression that ostensibly could fix this problem, but they screwed up and Varags going that route start at 40' land speed and never get faster. :smallfrown: Maybe a friendly DM would correct that and make it 60'.

Because Swift Ambusher gives more benefit to a mostly Rogue build, I think the best race would be one that has Rogue as the favored class. You could then avoid multiclassing XP penalties with 1 level each of Barbarian, Monk, Cleric (Celerity domain + Travel Devotion), and Scout. That gives you +20' to your base speed, Travel Devotion with extra uses/day from undead turn attempts, rage 1/day, sneak attack for your Rogue levels, and skirmish for the sum of your Rogue and Scout levels. Train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master for 10' steps.

So what are some fast, low LA races with Rogue as the favored class? I know Monster Manual II has the Jermlaine, which has 40' speed, DEX +6, and Rogue as their favored class for LA +0. But they're also tiny (0' reach) and have -6 STR, so this would pretty much have to be a crossbow archer, which requires feats and expensive weapon enhancements; plus it means being visually undetectable is the only option to enable consistent sneak attack.

Person_Man
2009-01-12, 11:13 AM
Sam the Shuffling Shield Soldier

Max out Dex. A small race is a good idea, as it raises your AC and Dex. I suggest Whisper Gnome or variant Kobold.

Go strait Fighter. Trust me, you'll need the bonus feats. The basic combo needs 7 feats (Human or Strongheart Halfling Fighter 4). To fully optimize it, you'll need 3-8 more.

Take Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes. This gives you some battlefield control. An animated shield, reach weapon, and armor spikes also help.

Take Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target. Elusive Target is very useful for a variety of reasons. But the key ability is Cause Overreach. Now whenever you move out of an enemy's threatened area and they miss on the AoO, you get a free Trip attack (and free follow up attack from Improved Trip).

Take Formation Expert (Complete Warrior). This gives you the Step into the Breech maneuver. Whenever you have a line of allies and one ally falls, you may Move into that position as if you had a Readied Action. Also, buy Boots of Speed. This gives you Haste (extra movement and attack) when you need it.

Have a team member cast Empowered Summon Monster/Natures Ally I once or twice, or Animate Objects. This creates a line of weak allies for you. As each one dies, you'll get a free Move. This means you'll probably get a Full Attack most rounds (because they Move for you, die, and you Move into their space), and you'll get plenty of free attacks on your enemies whenever they try to take an AoO on you (and miss, because your AC is so ridiculously high).


Optional:

Take the Ancestral Weapon feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) at first level. This feat lets you sacrifice magic items (bypassing the need to sell them at a 50% mark down) or gold in order to improve a single weapon. Designate your shield as this weapon. If you're playing in a long term campaign, it will save you a lot of money, and give you an uber shield/weapon.

Take TWF, Improved TWF, and then Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Now you have 2 more attacks when you make a normal full attack. And when you make an AoO, you may attack with both weapons (your shield and whatever).

Take Robilar's Gambit (PHBII). This will give you an extra attack whenever an enemy swings at you and misses.

Take Shield Specialization and Shield Ward (PHBII). This adds your Shield bonus to your Touch AC and your ability to resist special attacks. Since your Shield bonus will be ridiculously high (base + enhancement +1 from specialization) this should be quite high. This will go a long way towards protecting you from casters (and their dreaded touch attack spells) and very big enemies (like dragons and whatnot, which are fond of Grapple).

Take Item Familiar (Unearthed Arcana). This feat (which everyone qualifies for) gives a chosen item intelligence and special abilities. Lots of them are quite potent at high levels.

Take Power Attack for extra damage.

The end result: High AC, high touch AC, tons of attacks, plenty of mobility. Not the best build in the world, but it's playable in a normal group.

Kaiyanwang
2009-01-12, 11:24 AM
Sam the Shuffling Shield Soldier


Max out Dex. A small race is a good idea, as it raises your AC and Dex. I suggest Whisper Gnome or variant Kobold.

Go strait Fighter. Trust me, you'll need the bonus feats. The basic combo needs 7 feats (Human or Strongheart Halfling Fighter 4). To fully optimize it, you'll need 3-8 more.

Take Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes. This gives you some battlefield control. An animated shield, reach weapon, and armor spikes also help.

Take Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target. Elusive Target is very useful for a variety of reasons. But the key ability is Cause Overreach. Now whenever you move out of an enemy's threatened area and they miss on the AoO, you get a free Trip attack (and free follow up attack from Improved Trip).

Take Formation Expert (Complete Warrior). This gives you the Step into the Breech maneuver. Whenever you have a line of allies and one ally falls, you may Move into that position as if you had a Readied Action. Also, buy Boots of Speed. This gives you Haste (extra movement and attack) when you need it.

Have a team member cast Empowered Summon Monster/Natures Ally I once or twice, or Animate Objects. This creates a line of weak allies for you. As each one dies, you'll get a free Move. This means you'll probably get a Full Attack most rounds (because they Move for you, die, and you Move into their space), and you'll get plenty of free attacks on your enemies whenever they try to take an AoO on you (and miss, because your AC is so ridiculously high).


Optional:

Take the Ancestral Weapon feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) at first level. This feat lets you sacrifice magic items (bypassing the need to sell them at a 50% mark down) or gold in order to improve a single weapon. Designate your shield as this weapon. If you're playing in a long term campaign, it will save you a lot of money, and give you an uber shield/weapon.

Take TWF, Improved TWF, and then Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Now you have 2 more attacks when you make a normal full attack. And when you make an AoO, you may attack with both weapons (your shield and whatever).

Take Robilar's Gambit (PHBII). This will give you an extra attack whenever an enemy swings at you and misses.

Take Shield Specialization and Shield Ward (PHBII). This adds your Shield bonus to your Touch AC and your ability to resist special attacks. Since your Shield bonus will be ridiculously high (base + enhancement +1 from specialization) this should be quite high. This will go a long way towards protecting you from casters (and their dreaded touch attack spells) and very big enemies (like dragons and whatnot, which are fond of Grapple).

Take Item Familiar (Unearthed Arcana). This feat (which everyone qualifies for) gives a chosen item intelligence and special abilities. Lots of them are quite potent at high levels.

Take Power Attack for extra damage.

The end result: High AC, high touch AC, tons of attacks, plenty of mobility. Not the best build in the world, but it's playable in a normal group.




I love full fighter builds :smallsmile:

In dragon magazine there are feats to grant more AOOs, nice combos with double hit (if you have enough dex).

Remember that if you start a combat reflexes combo, you couldn't stop.. it's like a drug :smallbiggrin:

About combat reflexes feats, maybe could be useul have AOOs if nearby enemies cast spells or spell-like (mage slayer from CArcane) or use a supernatural ability (Supernatural instincts from Fiendish Codex II).

Just my 2c.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-12, 11:59 AM
Rogue 5/Thief-Acrobat 5/Exemplar 10.

It's simple and straighforwardly skill-based, but it'll function.

Also, remember that the Dive for Cover feat coupled with the Thief-Acrobat's Kip Up ability basically lets you save against any Reflex save twice with no penalty: Dive for Cover lets you make a second save, but leaves you prone, while Kip Up lets you get up from prone as a free action. Use with evasion for best results.

Heliomance
2009-01-12, 12:06 PM
Where's snap kick from? Can't find it on crystal keep.

Keld Denar
2009-01-12, 12:11 PM
Where's snap kick from? Can't find it on crystal keep.

Tome of Battle, page 32

Great feat for an unarmed swordsage!

Fax Celestis
2009-01-12, 12:25 PM
Tome of Battle, page 32

Great feat for an unarmed swordsage!

Great for anybody. It doesn't say your kick has to follow an unarmed attack, or even a melee one.

Person_Man
2009-01-12, 12:29 PM
Rogue 5/Thief-Acrobat 5/Exemplar 10.

It's simple and straighforwardly skill-based, but it'll function.

Also, remember that the Dive for Cover feat coupled with the Thief-Acrobat's Kip Up ability basically lets you save against any Reflex save twice with no penalty: Dive for Cover lets you make a second save, but leaves you prone, while Kip Up lets you get up from prone as a free action. Use with evasion for best results.

Thief-Acrobat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=3) gets Improved Evasion, and Dive for Cover also gives you a re-roll on your Defensive Roll ability (which is a Reflex Save). So Whatever 5/Thief Acrobat 5 with Dive for Cover is even better then you propose Fax. The only thing it lacks is offense. But with Craven and Staggering Strike you should be fine.