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View Full Version : [3.5] Move and Rapid Shot



dspeyer
2009-01-12, 02:01 AM
I imagine every archer scout has wanted a way to move and use rapid shot in one turn. Since charge specifies a melee attack, pounce is out. What are the ways to do it? I can think of these:

Travel Devotion -- feat -- move your speed as a free action once a day, more if you can burn turn undeads.

Hustle -- psionic power -- move your speed as a free action so long as you have the power points.

Sudden Leap -- ToB manuever -- jump as a free action (unlimited, but just jumping, and must be recovered)

Suedars
2009-01-12, 02:06 AM
I forget the name, but there's a pair of boots that 3/day allows you to take a 10ft. rather than a 5ft. adjust, which is enough for a scout to qualify for skirmish damage.

Keld Denar
2009-01-12, 02:18 AM
Um, Anklets of Translocation allow for a 10' teleport as a swift action twice a day per pair. Dirt cheap at like, 1400g a pair, you could easily buy 3-4 sets and just swap em out in between combats.

A&EG has the Combat Dummy thing, that allows monks to take a 10' shift. You'd just have to spike your UMD up high for a moment (have a cleric Imbue with Spell Ability a Divine Insight on you) once to convince it that you are a monk, and blamo, 10' shifts all day long for the cost of the dummy, which I believe is 10,000g.

The skates, Cyran Glide Boots, are detailed on a web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a), allow you to take 10' shifts as well, but only work 3 times a day.

Eldariel
2009-01-12, 02:22 AM
Many items. Sparring Dummy of the Master (10' steps), Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker (move half to your speed as a swift action once per day; only 750gp), Belt of Battle (take multiple full-round actions) some Anklets and so on.

Anyways, to add:

More ToB maneuvers: Quicksilver Motion, Shadow Blink and probably another one I'm not thinking of right now.

Spells: The whole Celerity-line, any movement-related spell Quickened (same with Powers), personal favourite being Quickened Benign Transposition and using Familiar to move. Only a level 5 slot. There're probably also some Swift Movement-spells, but can't think of any off the top of my head. Greater Slide may qualify if I recall correctly.

Powers: Similarly, any movement power Quickened (or Linked from the last turn) in addition to the natively Swift Action ones.

Extra Actions: Perhaps a bit obvious, but listing for completeness's sake. Factotum's Cunning Surge, Eternal Blade's Island in Time, etc.

DC 40 Tumble-check to take a 10' adjustment (Oriental Adventures).

Be a Mongol: Get a mount.

Grynning
2009-01-12, 02:24 AM
Be a Mongol: Get a mount.

Skirmish no worky on mounts unless you're using a variant (can't remember where from).

Eldariel
2009-01-12, 02:36 AM
Skirmish no worky on mounts unless you're using a variant (can't remember where from).

Skirmish doesn't work on many of those, and most of them are unavailable to an Archer Scout, but I was trying to answer the question of "how to move and rapid shot?" in general. You actually need that movement (instead of teleportation or whatever) for Skirmish to activate according to errata.

Keld Denar
2009-01-12, 02:54 AM
Skirmish doesn't work on many of those, and most of them are unavailable to an Archer Scout, but I was trying to answer the question of "how to move and rapid shot?" in general. You actually need that movement (instead of teleportation or whatever) for Skirmish to activate according to errata.

Why? Why does it have to actually have to physically move? I mean, I can understand the horse thing, probably for a balance reason, but why would a short range teleport not work? If I understand right, skirmish is fluffed out as a combination of a change in persective that allows you to identify weak points and strafing around a foe to catch them off balance, thus opening them up to percision based goodness. By teleporting swiftly, you are doing both. How does the difference between here and there matter, so long as you aren't using something elses actions to get there? Do you have a citation to prove that you can't teleport, that you physically have to move yourself in one of the 3 dimensions until you are 10' away from your starting spot?

Eldariel
2009-01-12, 03:13 AM
Why? Why does it have to actually have to physically move? I mean, I can understand the horse thing, probably for a balance reason, but why would a short range teleport not work? If I understand right, skirmish is fluffed out as a combination of a change in persective that allows you to identify weak points and strafing around a foe to catch them off balance, thus opening them up to percision based goodness. By teleporting swiftly, you are doing both. How does the difference between here and there matter, so long as you aren't using something elses actions to get there? Do you have a citation to prove that you can't teleport, that you physically have to move yourself in one of the 3 dimensions until you are 10' away from your starting spot?

By RAW, you have to move rather than teleport, get pushed or anything else (move is an action defined in PHB as an option of what to do with a "move action"; on the contrary, teleportation abilities state "instantly appear" or some such). The skirmish errata states:

"She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she
makes during any round in which she moves at least 10
feet away from where she was at the start of her turn.
The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the
scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability
cannot be used while mounted."

KKL
2009-01-12, 06:48 AM
Chronocharms of the Horizon Walker are awesome for skirmishes. They're dirt cheap, and allow you to move half your speed as a swift action.

Just grab like ten of them and switch after battles.

KevLar
2009-01-12, 07:32 AM
Yes, there has been some debate about that. Personally, I'm with the "move not teleport" interpretation, but whatever. For what it's worth, in MIC there's the Ring of Entropic Deflection, which gives you a miss chance if "at the end of any turn, you are at least 10 feet from the point where you started your turn". This one obviously allows teleportation and other means of going poof! and re-materializing somewhere else. The wording of Skirmish isn't so obvious, at least in comparison.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-12, 10:00 AM
Why? Why does it have to actually have to physically move? I mean, I can understand the horse thing, probably for a balance reason, but why would a short range teleport not work? Skirmish requires moving, and teleporting is getting somewhere else without moving. There are two answers here as to why this limitation makes sense. The obvious one is game balance again, so that magic doesn't end up being the answer to everything. The fluff answer is that while you can get a better angle for your precision damage by picking the right spot from which to attack, you're also slower to line up those shots if your perspective changes suddenly rather than incrementally; this gives the enemy time to react and spoil that precise shot.

Keld Denar
2009-01-12, 11:17 AM
Skirmish requires moving, and teleporting is getting somewhere else without moving. There are two answers here as to why this limitation makes sense. The obvious one is game balance again, so that magic doesn't end up being the answer to everything.
I don't see game balance as being an issue here. You are the one doing the teleporting, so there is an investment of resources (cash and body slots, class features, racial abilities, actions) which should trigger a reward of some sort (skirmish damage). Its the same way with Travel Devotion, or Sparring Dummy of the Master, or Sudden Leap, except that you are actually walking/flying/swimming/jumping. Similar expenditure of resources, similar end result. Don't discriminate just due to magic. Thats hardly fair. So long as someone isn't teleporting you along (same as a horse would carry you along), you should be able to get skirmish damage. Better yet, the rules don't specify that you have to make a continuous movement from point A to B, just that you have to start from A, end up at B, and A and B can't be less than 10' apart. Move is a relative term.


The fluff answer is that while you can get a better angle for your precision damage by picking the right spot from which to attack, you're also slower to line up those shots if your perspective changes suddenly rather than incrementally; this gives the enemy time to react and spoil that precise shot.
OR, you already know where you want to shoot (armor chink, fleshy part, vital organ, etc) but at the angle you would be shooting from, you won't inflict maximal damage. You line up the shot, blink, and then release, trusting in your practice, instinct, and precision of gear to guide the shot home. After all, that is what the combination of BAB, stats, feats, and enhancement bonuses amount to, practice with doing things a certain way. Teleporting would at least probably be less of a jarring landing than Sudden Leap would be, and you don't have a problem with Sudden Leaping and full attacking. As far as reacting, the time between teleport and release need not be long. A round is only 6 seconds after all, and part of that time is spent drawing ammo and drawing a bowstring.

I'm a hunter. I hunt white-tailed deer. The best shot to take down a white tail is a double lung shot. Its the largest target with the highest killing potential. You can't get a double lung shot if the animal is facing you, only if you are looking at its broad side. Now, granted, I can't teleport, but I can't tell you the number of times I would have gotten a kill if I could only maneuver around to that broad side. Instead, I'm sitting with my rifle trained, hoping the animal will turn. If I could teleport, and had practice teleporting and shooting, as surely a character with the ability would have, I could have probably shot and killed many more deer than I have in my life, and certainly bigger ones. Regardless, none of it makes sense using realism as a fulcrum, because I don't know a single archery hunter in real life who can draw 5 arrows in 6 seconds, draw the bow back, and fire with any degree of accuracy, the way a high level Ranger with Rapid Shot can. Hell, I don't even know anyone who can draw and fire 2 arrows in 6 seconds the way a 1st level Ranger with Rapid Shot can, and I grew up around hunters.

You debate with rules, I debate with rules. You debate with anecdote, I debate with anecdote. Either way, it still makes sense from both a balance/rules PoV and a realism PoV, or at least as realistic as anything is in D&D.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-12, 11:36 AM
My Hunter class has a good Skirmish substitute that gives you a Rapid-Shot-esque method of attack.

Grynning
2009-01-12, 03:09 PM
My Hunter class has a good Skirmish substitute that gives you a Rapid-Shot-esque method of attack.

Fax, as usual your homebrew is top-notch. If I ever play 3.5 again I totally want to play one of those.

I sit on the tree limb, watching the orcs pass beneath me. I breath deeply, and close my eyes, and when I open them again their movements seem slow, ponderous...their vitals are illuminated to me like targets on the practice range. I leap from the branch, and as my feet hit the ground I am already running. I feel one arrow fly from my bow, then another, and it takes me a moment to remember that I am the one firing them...