I like Celia

[dogmac]

Now, I know there is a strong possibility that I will be thrown off the forums for this, but the fact remains. I like her.

I like the fact she is a humanist, despite not being human.
I like that she is completely out of her water in the current situation, but still TRIES to do her best.
I even like that she stuffs up. I would stuff up, so it makes me feel like these things are feasible. Plus it removes all Mary Sue claims.
I like that she tries to intellectualise her way out of situations.

Oh, and yeah, I like she's a vegetarian.

I like her.

You may now abuse me wholeheartedly.

[Ganurath]

Now, I know there is a strong possibility that I will be thrown off the forums for this, but the fact remains. I like her.

I like the fact she fights for law, despite being a criminal by Azure City law.
I like that she is misconstruing the current situation, but still TRIES to do her best.
I even like that she stuffs up. I would stuff up, so it makes me feel like these things are feasible. Plus it removes all Mary Sue claims.
I like that she tries to intellectualise her way out of situations.

Oh, and yeah, I like she's a equestrian.

I like her.

You may now abuse me wholeheartedly.Are you a fan of Miko as well, perchance?

[dogmac]

No, I never liked Miko :smallyuk:

She was far too arrogant.

In the current situation, I can see Celia realising that she has ruined Haley and then trying to make things right, by, for example, offering to help pay. Miko would have just gone "It was ill gotten gains, you evil doer" or something like that.

[kpenguin]

Are you a fan of Miko as well, perchance?

Low blow!

I too happen to like Celia. Well, not like. More tolerate than like.

[banjo1985]

Hi, my name is banjo1985, and I'm a Celia Sympathiser...

I don't find it particularly weird that someone likes Celia, I like the sassy little sylph too. She messes up while being intellectually superior to most of the people around her, but her knowledge is in areas that aren't really relevant to other people, which causes problems. Plus she's funny and is a good foil for Haley's confidence and bravado.

[Ganurath]

In the current situation, I can see Celia realising that she has ruined Haley and then trying to make things right, by, for example, offering to help pay. Miko would have just gone "It was ill gotten gains, you evil doer" or something like that.Miko would have been helping Haley smite evil left and right. "He beats his wife? Save these wretches for me, you pursue that vile assassin that has lain upon you personal injustice!"

I predict your hypothesis regarding an apiphany on the part of the sylvan party will be undisputably disproven in comic 622, partly because it is consistent with her character to argue with Haley and stick with her beliefs, and partly because those sharing your belief on the matter are speaking as though it is already fact, and comedic irony demands a letdown.

[Eldariel]

Celia's cool. For real. Just goes to show the drag of being a pacifist adventurer. Also, I personally really enjoyed Miko. The whole "I know better than those stupid gods!"-attitude just plain rocked. Also, anyone who wipes out an epic level Paladin deserves props, even if she does so unwittingly and for the wrong team.

[Guran]

I like Celia too, and I like Miko and..... oh.
/me runs

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm just thinking about her supposed pacifism; why is it that she doesn't seem to care about other people killing on her behalf, and why is she happy to hurt people (including someone who hadn't said anything) over a joke like she did when she got unpetrified?

[The Minx]

Are you a fan of Miko as well, perchance?

Low blow indeed, and flamebait too. :smalltongue:

I like them both, though they are different as night and day. They're funny. I wouldn't want either of them in my adventuring party, but that's different. :smallsmile:


I'm just thinking about her supposed pacifism; why is it that she doesn't seem to care about other people killing on her behalf, and why is she happy to hurt people (including someone who hadn't said anything) over a joke like she did when she got unpetrified?

Seeing as pacifists still want police protection, that's probably par for the course as far as pacifists are concerned. :smallwink:

As for the lightning bolt against Nale and Thog, that was only to make it sting a bit (like a slap in the face, perhaps). Also maybe her character hadn't been fully defined that early in the story.

[Optimystik]

I like the fact she is a humanist, despite not being human.

I like that side of her as well. What I don't like is her forcing her beliefs on the party.


I like that she is completely out of her water in the current situation, but still TRIES to do her best.

If she was really trying she wouldn't ignore the experienced member of the party.


I even like that she stuffs up. I would stuff up, so it makes me feel like these things are feasible. Plus it removes all Mary Sue claims.

She's not a Mary Sue, she's a Damsel Scrappy.


I like that she tries to intellectualise her way out of situations.

I'd like it if she was better at it.


Oh, and yeah, I like she's a vegetarian.

I like her.

No comment. (Where do you even get vegetables in the Plane of Air anyway?)


You may now abuse me wholeheartedly.

No abuse here... just consternation.

[Tempest Fennac]

You could be right about that, Minx. I ust tend to think that her principals are "whatever she wants" looking at her actions during the comic.

[Tirian]

In the current situation, I can see Celia realising that she has ruined Haley and then trying to make things right, by, for example, offering to help pay. Miko would have just gone "It was ill gotten gains, you evil doer" or something like that.

What I don't accept from Celia is that she seems oblivious to the fact that Roy would have been resurrected by now if she hadn't taken the reins and had him turned into a golem. Entering into a business relationship while being grossly and comically unfamiliar with the adventurer's lifestyle and the workings of the Prime Material Plane in direct defiance of Haley's experience was pretty unforgivable the first time she did it. Being so unrepentant as to do it AGAIN a week later makes her an antagonist.

I wasn't in love with Miko, but at least I understood her motivations. She had such a single-minded focus on fighting evil that she lost her perspective. At the moment, Celia seems to be just a dumb blonde who causes problems to lengthen the arc to the size of a book. As I've said elsewhere, I secretly hope that Celia is actually Sabine in disguise, because at least that would explain why her actions are so laser-guided at screwing up Haley's life. Whatever her motivation is, I hope that it gets clarified at some point.

[dogmac]

I actually blame Haley more than Celia for them being in the current situation. Logically, Celia was right. They need a city ASAP. They are carting around a corpse and an extremely sick, for an unknown reason, halfling. There is a city. And Haley's only explanation of why not to go there is "It's not nice there!" or words to that effect.

Given that Haley had already shown that she was more concerned about Elan's possible death than Roy's actual one, I can see why Celia would think that if there was any resurrecting to be organised, she would have to be the one to do it.

[Tempest Fennac]

Haley made it clear that Greysky was more then just not nice, though. While mentioning the TG problems would have been wise, Celia still didn't seem bothered about how dangerous the place obviously was to the point where she didn;t even realise what the guy with the corpse wanted to do.

[WinterSolstice]

Where Miko was arrogant, Celia appears to be petty and spiteful.
She brokered a deal that left her enemies contented and her team-mates disadvantaged and angry (which is probably a good sign she fouled things up) , and what does she have to say about it? An angry glare and a snide remark.

She freely spent her own teammates money without consulting her first (For a so-called "lawyer" and "real person", she really doesn't seem opposed to outright ignoring "real world" laws when they're inconvenient.)

With that said, I still don't hate her. I'm open to a possibility of her enacting some sort of grand scheme.

[Sereg]

I like them both, though they are different as night and day. They're funny. I wouldn't want either of them in my adventuring party, but that's different. :smallsmile:

This is similar to my opinion. Of course with Miko, I wouldn't have even wanted her near my party. Sometimes I found her anoying, but it was still interesting to see her reactions and I never disliked her.

As for Celia I don't have a problem with her except for the fact she's incredibly naive and would make a terrible adventurer (which she never planned to be anyway).

[tcrudisi]

Given that Haley had already shown that she was more concerned about Elan's possible death than Roy's actual one, I can see why Celia would think that if there was any resurrecting to be organised, she would have to be the one to do it.

I am sure I am not alone here, but I would do the same thing as Haley: I would focus on worrying about the group member that could still be alive as opposed to the one that has no chance at still being alive. Does that make me a bad person? No, if anything, it makes me a better person for wanting to save lives.

And I'm the guy who argues in favor of genocide for real-world application.

I was neutral about Miko. Her character made sense, if nothing else. There were times when she annoyed me, but I never once thought, "This character MUST die!" Celia, on the other hand...

[whatchamacallit]

I think Celia is a fine character, a nice change from the usual.

As for Miko, I never really cared for her but was still choked up over her ending.

[DigoDragon]

Celia is pretty cool. If anything she can certainly negotiate with nearly anyone. That's a pretty useful skill set.

[Kurald Galain]

I like the fact she is a humanist, despite not being human.
:vaarsuvius: The proper term is sylphist.

[B.I.T.T.]

I'm pretty neutral about Celia.

I actually see her as someone who's going to alter the way Haley deals with people around her. Haley has secrets, quiet a few of them. In the past there has been no ill effects of Haley keeping those secrets. Now, though, she's associated with Celia who will take the initiative on actions she feels will effect the best solution. Thus it may be prudent to spill some of those secrets to keep Celia from doing something that will make matters worse (like going into Greysky City).

[omgpeachsnapple]

Thus it may be prudent to spill some of those secrets to keep Celia from doing something that will make matters worse (like going into Greysky City).

"Hey, I know we are focused on getting my leader/your boyfriend resurrected and finding the other half of the team but just in case you should ever negotiate away the gold I've been saving, my father is currently being held ransom by an evil dictator."

I just don't see how that could have come up in conversation.

[Counterpower]

I'm pretty neutral about Celia.

I actually see her as someone who's going to alter the way Haley deals with people around her. Haley has secrets, quiet a few of them. In the past there has been no ill effects of Haley keeping those secrets. Now, though, she's associated with Celia who will take the initiative on actions she feels will effect the best solution. Thus it may be prudent to spill some of those secrets to keep Celia from doing something that will make matters worse (like going into Greysky City).

This.

If Haley wants Celia to take her experience and knowledge as more important than Celia's own judgment, Haley needs to make it abundantly clear why she does what she does. Before Celia took Roy to Greysky City, Haley said very little on the city beyond "not everywhere on this plane is Happy Fun Sunshine Land, you know." Celia felt that it was still worth the try, because Haley didn't provide her with enough of a reason not to.

Had Haley said, "Look, I've been there before. The city's controlled by the thieves' guild, and no one's going to be willing to risk their displeasure to help someone they don't know. It's more likely that you'll just be killed or robbed than that you'll find any help there." Celia might well have acted differently. For that reason, I don't think it's very fair to lay all the blame for that on Celia.

As for the events a week later, well, remember Celia had two goals here: resurrect Roy, and stop the violence. Her solution brought the first closer to completion, with the securing of the Guild's assistance in recovering Roy's body, and achieved the second. Had Haley continued on her course, she would have gone right back to the Guild pissed at her, making the recovery of Roy's corpse that much more difficult. It would have been harder to contact Durkon for assistance, as well. Finally, with Pete's house raided, they would have lost their place to stay in the city, as well.

Frankly, I'm looking forward to seeing Celia get Haley to realize that her money or her need for revenge aren't more important than getting Roy back and the party back together. Celia should have mentioned the entire deal before Haley agreed to anything, yes. But really, if she had brought that part of the deal up about owing the Guild money, Haley should have agreed to the deal anyway.

[Roderick_BR]

I like her too. People seem to dislike her just cause she's not an adventurer, that solves everything by violence ("disintegrate, gust of wind") :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

No, I never liked Miko :smallyuk:

She was far too arrogant.
If that's your reason, then you're being grossly inconsistent. Celia is as arrogant as arrogant comes, and unlike Miko she doesn't even have extreme competence in her field to justify it.

[King of Nowhere]

I also like her to a certain level. I like everyone who tries to do his best, no matter how much they unwillingly screw up, so I liked on a certain level Miko too. I also like that she tries to negotiate.
What I don't like is that she is fanatically devoted to her principles, refuse to see reality and tries to force people to adhere (at least on the surface) to them, feeling better than them and entitled to judge.
To cut short, she's a fantic, and I dislike fanatics. But I like all her other traits.

[T-O-E]

I'm in neutral ground. I do not like her, nor am I annoyed by her.

[Innis Cabal]

I actually blame Haley more than Celia for them being in the current situation. Logically, Celia was right. They need a city ASAP. They are carting around a corpse and an extremely sick, for an unknown reason, halfling. There is a city. And Haley's only explanation of why not to go there is "It's not nice there!" or words to that effect.

Given that Haley had already shown that she was more concerned about Elan's possible death than Roy's actual one, I can see why Celia would think that if there was any resurrecting to be organised, she would have to be the one to do it.

No offense, but if the zombie apocolypse happens, your not allowed in my bunker.

That being said, when in unfamiliar territory, and with people who know it better then you, its a good idea not to rush ahead and do as you please while ignoring sage advice. One could actually use the words "foolish" and blatently immature (in this case as its more of a NU UH! Its my boyfriend"). Celia is not a good character, probably CN, and if I was in her party i'd have found a way to get rid of her in a serious way.

[B.I.T.T.]

Actually after re-reading the comic strip I have to admit Haley gave Celia more then enough reason to suspect that going to Greysky City was a bad idea. I mean she specifically said "People get killed for having gold in their pocket..."

So it looks like if there's Celia's got some definite room for improvement as an adventurer, i.e. she needs to learn to trust Haley's judgment. But then again she also managed to broker a deal that will get Roy re-captured from Grub and also get him rezzed, which sort of balances out the fact that she caused that whole mess in the first place...almost...sorta almost.

Now the question will become, how many of those secrets of Haley's will be revealed at Celia now that this new developement has occurred, at what volume and how many words that you can't say on network television will accomany said description?

[omgpeachsnapple]

Now the question will become, how many of those secrets of Haley's will be revealed at Celia now that this new developement has occurred, at what volume and how many words that you can't say on network television will accomany said description?

Somehow, I don't think "I have a tattoo you've never seen" and "I've kissed a girl more than once" are going to make it ... :smallwink:

[Nerdanel]

Celia really gets on my nerves.

Here's what I think should happen to her: (spoilered as speculation to preserve the chance of it actually happening)

It turns out that the cleric of Loki got the Sending sent to Durkon and Durkon happened to have Sending (or a scroll of Sending) prepared. So Durkon cast Sending about Haley's location to Vaarsuvius who had gone back to Azure City, gotten the message Haley left with the Resistance, and was on his way to Cliffport when Durkon's Sending revealed him Haley was in danger in Greysky City.

So at the time of 621 V is very close and heading towards the Greysky City Thieves Guild headquarters, since he reasons that the Thieves Guild is the most likely cause of danger for Haley.

V lands in, unnoticed, during a heated exchange between Hank, Haley, and Celia and acts on hilariously incomplete information.

:haley: "Celia, you sold me out to the Thieves Guild! I thought you were my friend!"

:vaarsuvius: "Disintegrate."

Being an outsider (air), Celia handles the "gust of wind" part by herself by dissolving into her element upon death. Thus a tedious character and a tedious courtroom arch is disposed with, and V's character arch is advanced. Yay! :smallbiggrin:

[MorhgorRB]

Frankly, I'm looking forward to seeing Celia get Haley to realize that her money or her need for revenge aren't more important than getting Roy back and the party back together. Celia should have mentioned the entire deal before Haley agreed to anything, yes. But really, if she had brought that part of the deal up about owing the Guild money, Haley should have agreed to the deal anyway.

This :

It's half of the gold Haley made since leaving the thieves guild. Let's see now... (This is not a complete list, just a 'recent' one)

- Loot from X's cave : spent/horded
- Loot from Dragon's cave : hoarded
- All loot blown up. Aside from one bag. (Hotel)
- Little bit of gold here and there.
- Spends it all on the resistance. (Except maybe a touch of savings)
- Now owes Thieves Guild half of what she's made.

A Dragon's loot is going to be worth somewhere between 25,000-60,000 (Juvenille, and the way they had bags and bags of it in the cart)
X's loot is questionable, though one scene shows Haley with a sack bigger than her.

Total : Somewhere between 50,000-100,000 gold pieces.
Amount Haley has : Somewhere between 0 - 100.

[Shadowcaller]

Celia really gets on my nerves.

Here's what I think should happen to her: (spoilered as speculation to preserve the chance of it actually happening)

It turns out that the cleric of Loki got the Sending sent to Durkon and Durkon happened to have Sending (or a scroll of Sending) prepared. So Durkon cast Sending about Haley's location to Vaarsuvius who had gone back to Azure City, gotten the message Haley left with the Resistance, and was on his way to Cliffport when Durkon's Sending revealed him Haley was in danger in Greysky City.

So at the time of 621 V is very close and heading towards the Greysky City Thieves Guild headquarters, since he reasons that the Thieves Guild is the most likely cause of danger for Haley.

V lands in, unnoticed, during a heated exchange between Hank, Haley, and Celia and acts on hilariously incomplete information.

:haley: "Celia, you sold me out to the Thieves Guild! I thought you were my friend!"

:vaarsuvius: "Disintegrate."

Being an outsider (air), Celia handles the "gust of wind" part by herself by dissolving into her element upon death. Thus a tedious character and a tedious courtroom arch is disposed with, and V's character arch is advanced. Yay! :smallbiggrin:


Thankfully, such things only happens in bad fan-fiction.

[hamishspence]

50000 gp pinched from Grubwiggler which is now considered "official guild theft"

with the lower limit for total amount ever thieved (remember Haley didn't get round to paying CoL for the Sending or the fixing of Belkar (done on his own initiative) she might not finish in debt at all. Unless Old Blind Pete has been charging her lots for staying.

the conning of Roy and company out of money (without actually lying) comes more under fraud than theft.

[Liwen]

This :

It's half of the gold Haley made since leaving the thieves guild. Let's see now... (This is not a complete list, just a 'recent' one)

- Loot from X's cave : spent/horded
- Loot from Dragon's cave : hoarded
- All loot blown up. Aside from one bag. (Hotel)
- Little bit of gold here and there.
- Spends it all on the resistance. (Except maybe a touch of savings)
- Now owes Thieves Guild half of what she's made.

A Dragon's loot is going to be worth somewhere between 25,000-60,000 (Juvenille, and the way they had bags and bags of it in the cart)
X's loot is questionable, though one scene shows Haley with a sack bigger than her.

Total : Somewhere between 50,000-100,000 gold pieces.
Amount Haley has : Somewhere between 0 - 100.

A loophole you might not have notice : Haley owns the guild half of what she stole since she left. Xykon's loot and The dragon's loot as well as every small loot she gained while adventuring with the Order doesn't count has stolen wealth.

Yet, seeing has how a single roberry of Grub's castle is enough to gain over 50000 gp, I ecpect the bill will be pretty high anyway. Of course, there is always the possibility of lying with her maximised bluff check to make Hank believe she hasn't stolen that much money since she started adventuring, being way to occupied saving the world.

On the thread's main and original topic. I feel mostly neutral about Celia. Even when she was usefull to the party by openning the secret employee stairway, or defending them on the trial, I never gave her much thoughs.

Pervert has I am, the only sensible memory I keep of Celia is her +3 dressing of hotness. Roy you lucky bas&?$&$?!

[Järnblomma]

I think Celias OK. I think she should be a tad bit more effective in DIPLOMACY, not fighting, and that she would've made a better deal. I was seriously expecting a really awsome moment there when she glew and wanted to discuss.

I am not annoyed at her, but I want her to be more effective in what she's supposed to do best.

And yes, I like Miko. Very much even, mostly because she, for the largest part, is a lawful good antagonist. That's a first I think.

[Shpadoinkle]

I too like Celia. As others have pointed out, SHE IS NOT AN ADVENTURER, and has lived a VERY sheltered life. She's acting a lot like a normal person would if they were suddenly thrown into circumstances like that.

And yes, if Haley had been honest about WHY it was such a horrible idea to go to Greysky at all (namely that the Thieves' Guild would attack her on sight, and do thier damnedest to make sure she was permanently dead), Celia may well have considered that a reasonable explanation and agreed to avoid the city. Or not. She could also have thought she could handle everything inside the city herself despite knowing Haley wouldn't be available for any kind of backup.

Yes, there are some similarities between Celia and Miko, in that they beleive the others should do everything thier way, but the difference between them is that Miko would say "You'll do things my way, because I'm a paladin and I said so!" While Celia would say "We should do things this way, and the reasons for it are..." There IS a difference.

[Assassin89]

I also like Celia because she actually shows how someone unaccustomed to a certain area would react. Most of this anger towards Celia stems from a quickly drawn conclusion in a side story that has not been completed yet.

[King of Nowhere]

Celia really gets on my nerves.

Here's what I think should happen to her: (spoilered as speculation to preserve the chance of it actually happening)

It turns out that the cleric of Loki got the Sending sent to Durkon and Durkon happened to have Sending (or a scroll of Sending) prepared. So Durkon cast Sending about Haley's location to Vaarsuvius who had gone back to Azure City, gotten the message Haley left with the Resistance, and was on his way to Cliffport when Durkon's Sending revealed him Haley was in danger in Greysky City.

So at the time of 621 V is very close and heading towards the Greysky City Thieves Guild headquarters, since he reasons that the Thieves Guild is the most likely cause of danger for Haley.

V lands in, unnoticed, during a heated exchange between Hank, Haley, and Celia and acts on hilariously incomplete information.

:haley: "Celia, you sold me out to the Thieves Guild! I thought you were my friend!"

:vaarsuvius: "Disintegrate."

Being an outsider (air), Celia handles the "gust of wind" part by herself by dissolving into her element upon death. Thus a tedious character and a tedious courtroom arch is disposed with, and V's character arch is advanced. Yay! :smallbiggrin:


I would not want to see it happen, but it cracked me up.

[David Argall]

A loophole you might not have notice : Haley owns the guild half of what she stole since she left. Xykon's loot and The dragon's loot as well as every small loot she gained while adventuring with the Order doesn't count has stolen wealth.

Hank, and apparently Celia, expects the sum to be high enough to pay for dozens of Raise Deads. So we can expect it's a real big sum.
Now the loophole may come into play, but the plot idea makes much more sense if Haley is faced with a bill she can't begin to pay. So we should assume Haley is facing potential bankruptcy.

[Quorothorn]

Hank, and apparently Celia, expects the sum to be high enough to pay for dozens of Raise Deads. So we can expect it's a real big sum.
Now the loophole may come into play, but the plot idea makes much more sense if Haley is faced with a bill she can't begin to pay. So we should assume Haley is facing potential bankruptcy.

Indeed.

And let's see, 5,000 per Raise Dead, 31 of them to be cast...155,000 gp of diamonds, plus the cost of whatever spell is needed to raise Roy (Resurrection, 10,000 gp?). :smalleek:

[Vemynal]

Are you a fan of Miko as well, perchance?

actually i was a big fan of Miko- not character wise necessarily but her affect of the comic- she worked wonders as an antagonist


I was really sad when she didnt come back as a zombie blackguard =/

[japandy42]

I have been reading about all this abuse Celia has been getting, and eventually it annoyed me enough that I had to register to get it off my chest. Don't you guys understand that there is much more going on in this world than Haley and her loot?

In the battle with the thieves guild, a bunch of people died. The only way to rez them, which for Celia is the most important thing (and you can disagree with her about that, but it's certainly not a selfish or stupid objective). It takes money to rez them. Now where is there money?

Oh right! Haley has a ton of loot that she has been hoarding. So Celia decided to use that to raise all the "victims" of the violence. Why does that not make sense?? Yes, she's also using it as an excuse to assert her morals onto Haley, but that is in no way why she did it.

I think if you think about it from this perspective, it's hard to hold a lot against Celia, and I certainly don't understand the rampant hate just because of this.

[mockingbyrd7]

I like Celia as a person, and I tolerate her as a character. I hate Miko as a person, and love her as a character. I don't let my own moral code/personality get in the way of my enjoyment of good writing. Belkar and Eric Cartman from South Park are two Chaotic Evil, psychopathic wackjobs but I love them as characters and find them to be hilarious.

[Lorde]

I like both Celia and Miko.

Somehow, I think both will share the same fate, if anything, to make things personal to Roy.

[The Extinguisher]

So it looks like if there's Celia's got some definite room for improvement as an adventurer

I agree. It's almost as if she... now I know this will sound strange, bare with me... isn't an adventurer!

I know. Shocking. How dare Rich make a character who isn't a Big Damn Hero who walks into a room guns a-blazing killing the mooks and henchmen. I mean, if he keeps this up, soon he'll be telling us that real people occupy the world too, and not just PC's and the NPC's that serve them.

[Assassin89]

I mean, if he keeps this up, soon he'll be telling us that real people occupy the world too, and not just PC's and the NPC's that serve them.

Sarcasm detected!
I think you forget that sometimes the PCs serve the NPCs especially if that NPC is at least 10 levels above you.

[Reverent-One]

I like Celia as well for the most part. Despite what those who dislike her say, the contract negotiated with the thief's guild was the best option for the moment, despite the trouble it causes in the long term with Haley's father. They have to survive the short term in under to accomplish that goal anyway.

[Liwen]

Indeed.

And let's see, 5,000 per Raise Dead, 31 of them to be cast...155,000 gp of diamonds, plus the cost of whatever spell is needed to raise Roy (Resurrection, 10,000 gp?). :smalleek:

Soooo were talking about 4-5 days of honest castle rubbery? given the 50% cut off factor?

[Llama231]

I am neutral on both Celia and Miko.
I only dislike characters that hinder the story, whether annoying, or contradictory.
There are not really any of these in this comic, but for some reason, I really disliked Samantha and Pompey.

[Finwe]

I have been reading about all this abuse Celia has been getting, and eventually it annoyed me enough that I had to register to get it off my chest. Don't you guys understand that there is much more going on in this world than Haley and her loot?

In the battle with the thieves guild, a bunch of people died. The only way to rez them, which for Celia is the most important thing (and you can disagree with her about that, but it's certainly not a selfish or stupid objective). It takes money to rez them. Now where is there money?

I disagree. Resurrecting your enemies, who all happen to be terrible people that will most likely continue to do evil for the rest of their lives, is not just stupid, but arguably immoral.


(Note: I'm not arguing that the members of the thieves' guild deserved to die for their crimes, but that they don't deserve to be resurrected, wife-beaters and dog-fighting ring runners that they are).

[chiasaur11]

Sarcasm detected!
I think you forget that sometimes the PCs serve the NPCs especially if that NPC is at least 10 levels above you.

Or, more often in this comic, the PCs dance around for the amusement of NPCs with two levels in expert.

[Bluelantern]

No, I never liked Miko :smallyuk:

She was far too arrogant.

In the current situation, I can see Celia realising that she has ruined Haley and then trying to make things right, by, for example, offering to help pay. Miko would have just gone "It was ill gotten gains, you evil doer" or something like that.

Yep. I like Celia as well, can't see why she is a "mary sue" in anyway. She is a nice outsider who is just trying to do what she thinks is the right thing without shoving it down anyone throats.

[Zeful]

Miko would have been helping Haley smite evil left and right. "He beats his wife? Save these wretches for me, you pursue that vile assassin that has lain upon you personal injustice!"So violence is the only acceptable solution?


I'm just thinking about her supposed pacifism; why is it that she doesn't seem to care about other people killing on her behalf, and why is she happy to hurt people (including someone who hadn't said anything) over a joke like she did when she got unpetrified?She wasn't happy when she attacked Thog and Nale. She was angry. Anger is a normal reaction to stress. Violence is a normal reaction to anger.

[Sereg]

I like Celia as a person, and I tolerate her as a character. I hate Miko as a person, and love her as a character. I don't let my own moral code/personality get in the way of my enjoyment of good writing. Belkar and Eric Cartman from South Park are two Chaotic Evil, psychopathic wackjobs but I love them as characters and find them to be hilarious.

This is actually the closest to my veiws. Though I only dislike Miko (a lot) as a person rather than actually hate her.

[japandy42]

I disagree. Resurrecting your enemies, who all happen to be terrible people that will most likely continue to do evil for the rest of their lives, is not just stupid, but arguably immoral.


(Note: I'm not arguing that the members of the thieves' guild deserved to die for their crimes, but that they don't deserve to be resurrected, wife-beaters and dog-fighting ring runners that they are).

Fine, you are right, we can argue that raising your enemies is stupid. But put yourself in Celia's shoes. She's a pacifist! Of COURSE she's the type who would raise her enemies from the dead. And the reality? They aren't enemies any more, even if they are bad people. If people just thought Celia was dumb for being a pacifist, then I have no problem with that.

But that's not what people are arguing. They aren't even trying to understand which values she holds highest. And given that life itself IS the highest to her, her actions are neither surprising, out-of-character, or anything like poorly planned. It's a brilliant coup for HER. Just because it isn't in everybody's favorite rouge's best interest, people are jumping all over her.

[Finwe]

Fine, you are right, we can argue that raising your enemies is stupid. But put yourself in Celia's shoes. She's a pacifist! Of COURSE she's the type who would raise her enemies from the dead. And the reality? They aren't enemies any more, even if they are bad people. If people just thought Celia was dumb for being a pacifist, then I have no problem with that.

But that's not what people are arguing. They aren't even trying to understand which values she holds highest. And given that life itself IS the highest to her, her actions are neither surprising, out-of-character, or anything like poorly planned. It's a brilliant coup for HER. Just because it isn't in everybody's favorite rouge's best interest, people are jumping all over her.

Yes, it was a coup for her. That doesn't make it right, or excuse the fact that she's stabbed her friend in the back in order to forcibly impose her morals.

[Xenrik]

Top rule of adventuring groups.

NPC members never spend,commit, or offer PC money without asking.

Celia is ,unfortunately, lawful good = my principles are all that matter and you all have to agree with me and abide by them. She is just lucky that she offered the money, if she actually gave it away I would be saying a few prayers for her.

[Ganurath]

So violence is the only acceptable solution?To defend one's self against lethal force? Yes!

[Querzis]

Tempest fennac, Ganurath, Finwe, Nerdanel since this thread is called: «I like Celia» could I please know what you are doing here? You obviously hate Celia (or at least you dont like her) so what are you doing in a thread thats obviously meant to the people who like her? The fact that some people like Celia doesnt change the fact that you can hate her if you want so go in a thread about hating Celia (there is more then enough of them) and leave these guys alone because those kind of debates can only get ugly. Hell, it actually got ugly on the very second comment. Come on Ganurath that was just a low blow.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Yep. I like Celia as well, can't see why she is a "mary sue" in anyway. She is a nice outsider who is just trying to do what she thinks is the right thing without shoving it down anyone throats.

...even though that seems to be what she's doing right now in this new strip by spending Haley's money.

:haley: You had no right to spend my money!
Celia: That you stole from people who actually earned it? Hell, yes I did!

That said, I like how she sticks to her respect for life. I've said it before, I would have left those bastards dead, but Celia is a lawyer, which means she is intimately familiar with the fact that even violent criminals don't get killed right off the bat in a Lawful society.

I liked how she used diplomacy (convincing Haley it was in the interests of the Resistance) to get her to sneak past the hobgoblins instead of killing them. If Haley had did the same when defending Belkar's actions (if he didn't kill one, we would have had to kill them all once our cover was blown), there probably wouldn't be as much tension between them.

I liked how she had what seemed like the most realistic reaction to Belkar's love of slicin' and dicin'

I liked how she tried to get the party reunited as quickly as possible by leaving Azure City and trying to find a cleric in Greysky instead of Cliffport. Although that last one shows a huge lapse in judgment.

I espeically like how she blames herself for the Thieves' deaths and apologizes to Haley after the Escape from Grubwiggler.

The only thing I don't like is spending Haley's money on the basis it was "ill-gotten gains" on an organization whose entire business model relies on such ill-gotten gains when she knew very well it could have gone to funding a struggling Resistance movement back in Azure City. Plus, her agreement served to further screw over Grubwiggler, who was running a completely legitimate golem business.

Well, now that I've listed all of her Pros and Cons, let me just say this: I hope the tension between her and Haley explodes in a great huge plot-advancing, character-developing ball of fire. Hopefully, Roy will be there for it.

[Theodoric]

I like the Celia character and her interaction with the rest of the party, especially Haley. She adds some inner-party conflict (with good display of Alignment), which would be missing due to Belkar and V being seperated.

You know, conflict, the most natural thing in the universe, as again demonstrated here, except in a less civil manner.

[kamikasei]

I really don't get the Celia hate. Then again, I don't usually read the comics section of the forums at all so maybe this is pretty standard.

I like Celia as a character. She has many annoying traits as a person and, like anyone in Rich's work, makes bad decisions because of dramatic irony or necessity.

On the other hand, she's come back to see her boyfriend only to discover he's dead and his friends are at a loss to raise him - or accomplish any of their objectives. In trying to accomplish what she sees and Haley agrees are the top priorities - a) raising Roy, and b) reuniting with the rest of the Order - she's continually being blocked in what she suggests or attempts.

Celia and Haley have different principles. They consider different things acceptable in the pursuit of their goals. They have different sets of problems constraining them. So when Haley tells Celia that no, they can't do what Celia suggests, for good reasons that Haley is not going to tell her, so shut up and trust me - why should Celia accept that? Why should she trust that Haley's unknown motives and unknown reasoning jibe with what Celia is willing to do, be party to, or be bound by?

Celia should be less naive and overconfident. Haley should be more forthright and honest about her motives with her allies who have no reason to blindly trust her. I can't get particuarly worked up about the flaws of one given the mistakes of the other. And I wouldn't want to read a strip where neither were screwing up, because that wouldn't be as interesting.

[Kish]

Plus, her agreement served to further screw over Grubwiggler, who was running a completely legitimate golem business.
It is worth noting that even though there's probably no law against making bone and flesh golems, Grubwiggler also acts as a kind of murder fence, buying corpses of people he knows were murdered and using "I'll get rid of the evidence of your crime" as an incentive to sell to him. He was also willing to buy Belkar and Mr. Scruffy for parts, which would have involved killing them.

[hamishspence]

And he's willing to kill to get debt repaid. after the "void debt in return for your body as raw materials" is turned down, its "squeeze her until she has made good on her debt, one way or another"

[Raging Gene Ray]

Kish, hamish...you're both right. I guess I just got back from reading the start of the Celia is a Hypocrite thread.

So that's only one glaring flaw in Celia's behavior.

[hamishspence]

while I'm not fond of "rob the rich to help others = good" theory, "rob the thief to help others" is, to some, rather more moral than that.

Rob the thief to return it to the robbed is the most moral reason of all for taking stuff, but in the absence of knowing precisely who Haley's taken stuff from, or in the absence of being able to return it anyway

(Grubwiggler has been set up by the guild as the fall guy), using the money to permanently ensure no more Guild trouble is a reasonable use.

[Bluelantern]

About what Celia "did" with Harley money: Well... I don't think she had much of a option, at least not one that din't forced her to kill.

[Finwe]

Tempest fennac, Ganurath, Finwe, Nerdanel since this thread is called: «I like Celia» could I please know what you are doing here? You obviously hate Celia (or at least you dont like her) so what are you doing in a thread thats obviously meant to the people who like her? The fact that some people like Celia doesnt change the fact that you can hate her if you want so go in a thread about hating Celia (there is more then enough of them) and leave these guys alone because those kind of debates can only get ugly. Hell, it actually got ugly on the very second comment. Come on Ganurath that was just a low blow.

I do not hate Celia. I find her annoying. If I hated everything that annoyed me, I'd probably have a heart attack by the time I was 25. You can't arbitrarily declare that threads 'belong' to a certain group of people - they're open to anyone in the community with something relevant to say. I'm in this thread to discuss Celia's likability with people of opposing viewpoints. Do you really want a sycophantic thread where everyone goes 'Celia's teh awsum, lol?" Maybe someone will bring up a point I hadn't thought of, or give a perspective I hadn't considered yet. Nothing I read is very likely to make me do a hell-face turn and start liking Celia, but my annoyance will at least become more 'refined' :smalltongue:. Threads where everyone agrees with you are boring.

[hamishspence]

While I would probably find her personality annoying if I met her, I do think that the claims that celia is a massive hindrance are missing something.

Celia's actions have furthered the plot, and the overall goals of the Order.

Lets say Celia had listened to Haley. We would have a trek through the wilds with an increasingly useless Belkar, for 4 weeks, and minimal chance of treasure-hunting, and not enough money to raise Roy when they get there.

Now in 1 week of time, thanks to her choosing to go to Greysky, Roy will be resurrected, a message has possibly gone out to Durkon and Belkar is cured. All in much less time (important considering Redcloak's comment about "pushing forward the doomsday clock") And the only thing lost is money that was stolen from Grubwiggler on the way out, in the first place.

(and a big debt to pay off over time- not the problem in a Save The World plot)

[Trebuchet]

I don't let my own moral code/personality get in the way of my enjoyment of good writing.

This is my view, too. The story matters much more than if the characters are likable, to me, and I am fascinated by the current story. Besides, sometimes people are just not able to function in their current situation, and I like watching a character who is in that position.

I actually find Celia's behavior convincing. I once played a character who was a lot like Celia. He was a pacifist, and when the game became a war campaign, he behaved a lot like Celia, too. It is interesting to me to see how someone else treats the situation. (Eventually, my character went insane and had to be replaced with someone who could pull a trigger. Maybe Celia will fare better.)

[wellington]

I disagree. Resurrecting your enemies, who all happen to be terrible people that will most likely continue to do evil for the rest of their lives, is not just stupid, but arguably immoral.

(Note: I'm not arguing that the members of the thieves' guild deserved to die for their crimes, but that they don't deserve to be resurrected, wife-beaters and dog-fighting ring runners that they are).

Four counter-arguments.

1) They may be evil, but will they do more evil by living than by staying dead? It seems to me that the Guild Enforcers, are, in a horrible way, the closest thing the city has to police.

2) Given that the people raised are no longer a threat to Haley, and are now, by contract, on her side, I don't see the stupidity here.

3) Any doctor could tell you that if Cruella de Vil staggers into the emergency room with a gunshot wound, you treat her. Given the revolving-door afterlife, rezzing is just a more expensive form of medicine. Not resurrecting someone when you can is dubious, at best.

4) More than that, rezzing is the professional thing to do. As a lawyer, Celia is trained in a much-neglected concept: criminals have rights. Even ones who try to kill the good guys, beat their wives, and torture dogs.

The only things Celia did wrong were to go in behind Haley's back, rather than confront her openly and try to figure out why she took her stance, and to not delay the negotiations to convince Haley to play along. And the second was arguably a good pragmatic move.

Celia's principles, unlike Miko's, prevent her from ever becoming completely unglued from her humanity. Miko was a fanatic in pursuit of her personal conception of Justice, and that's usually a bad thing. But a world like OOtS's could use more people like Celia, the Mercy fanatic. Hell, our world could use a few more of them.

I like Celia as a plot device, I'd like her as a person, and I'd certainly retain her as my lawyer.

[hamishspence]

3.5 ed in particular has tended to lean a bit more toward this and away from Evil = Smite, with BoED and Champions of Valor both playing up Mercy and other virtues.

[Zeful]

4) More than that, rezzing is the professional thing to do. As a lawyer, Celia is trained in a much-neglected concept: criminals have rights. Even ones who try to kill the good guys, beat their wives, and torture dogs.

If they were not committing a crime at the time, I will agree with you. However a criminal committing a crime should be stripped of all but the most basic human rights (Ie. rights to shelter, food and health etc.), so a criminal who broke into your house and cut himself on a knife carelessly left in a kitchen cannot sue the owner for negligent assault. A homeless starving man breaking into a house or store to get warm and/or food would not be a criminal in this sense, as long as he does nothing else against the law (stealing money, kidnapping etc.).

[hamishspence]

But in this case, its Haley thats committed a crime- to whit, unauthorized thievery of 50000 gp from Grubwiggler.

as Terry Pratchett put it: Unauthorized thieves face the full force of Injustice, which is generally a stick with nails in it.

[Ravenred]

I'm actually quite a fan of Celia. She is the roleplayers diplomat PC. And she's come up with the goods, with herself Belkar and Haley safe (probably in the safest place in Greysky) Roy to be retrieved / rezzed and the order about to be reunited (one hopes). And if it cost Haley a bit of money... well...

(don't forget Haley was prepared for all of them to be killed, asking Durkon to be ready to raise ALL of them)

I've never quite understood the intensity of people's Celia-hate.

[teratorn]

I've never quite understood the intensity of people's Celia-hate.

There are 12 Celia threads in the first page of this forum. Apparently anyone who preaches on other people attracts this kind of attention.

Heck this even brought a few Miko threads. Incredible...

[Adderfield]

Celia is Haley's Greater Mark of Justice.

Because she, like Belkar, needs to make a change in her course of action.

She's the party leader, now. Just like Hinjo needs to learn how to Azure City's Lord rather than just another paladin, the Order of The Stick needs Haley to be the party Leader, not the party Rogue. She still does a little too much of the latter and not enough of the former.

In the meantime, Celia is going to keep busting Haley's chops.

[Optimystik]

Four counter-arguments.

1) They may be evil, but will they do more evil by living than by staying dead? It seems to me that the Guild Enforcers, are, in a horrible way, the closest thing the city has to police.

Yes, actually. Yes they will. They certainly can't try to kill anyone while they're dead.


2) Given that the people raised are no longer a threat to Haley, and are now, by contract, on her side, I don't see the stupidity here.

They're still the same horrible people they were before Haley turned them into pincushions. Thanks to Celia, they'll even have the same horrible leader as they did before. Reviving them all is simply a mistake, with the sole bonus that they'll all come back a level weaker.

Not killing any more of them once they ceased to be a threat is the extent of Haley's moral obligation. Even then, she should have finished Bozzok off, and to hell with Hank's objections.


3) Any doctor could tell you that if Cruella de Vil staggers into the emergency room with a gunshot wound, you treat her. Given the revolving-door afterlife, rezzing is just a more expensive form of medicine. Not resurrecting someone when you can is dubious, at best.

That's a moral quandary for the Lokians to worry about; last time I checked, Haley can't treat or resurrect anyone. As for the Guild, they're thieves that just came across a large stash of ranged magical weapons. If they really want to return their lowlife organization to its former glory, they don't need Haley's money to do it. Especially since the REASON they're having a membership deficiency is because they tried to KILL her.


4) More than that, rezzing is the professional thing to do. As a lawyer, Celia is trained in a much-neglected concept: criminals have rights. Even ones who try to kill the good guys, beat their wives, and torture dogs.

Such as the right to life? A right they tried their hardest to take from Haley? Does the phrase "self-defense" mean anything to you?


The only things Celia did wrong were to go in behind Haley's back, rather than confront her openly and try to figure out why she took her stance, and to not delay the negotiations to convince Haley to play along. And the second was arguably a good pragmatic move.

You forgot getting them into this mess in the first place.


Celia's principles, unlike Miko's, prevent her from ever becoming completely unglued from her humanity. Miko was a fanatic in pursuit of her personal conception of Justice, and that's usually a bad thing. But a world like OOtS's could use more people like Celia, the Mercy fanatic. Hell, our world could use a few more of them.

I'd have no problem with what she did if she'd done it with her own resources. The best justification she could come up with was "well, you stole that wealth, so you've got as little right to it as I do." That still doesn't give her any right to spend it.


I like Celia as a plot device, I'd like her as a person, and I'd certainly retain her as my lawyer.

Yeah, good luck with that.

[Finwe]

3) Any doctor could tell you that if Cruella de Vil staggers into the emergency room with a gunshot wound, you treat her. Given the revolving-door afterlife, rezzing is just a more expensive form of medicine. Not resurrecting someone when you can is dubious, at best.

And murder is just a stronger version of assault, then? Please, let's not get into the morality of death/killing in a world where resurrections exist and the afterlife is physical and tangible.




The only things Celia did wrong were to go in behind Haley's back, rather than confront her openly and try to figure out why she took her stance, and to not delay the negotiations to convince Haley to play along. And the second was arguably a good pragmatic move.

Don't forget, she didn't renegotiate the contract once she found Haley had gained the upper hand. That was a pretty big mistake, if you ask me.




Celia's principles, unlike Miko's, prevent her from ever becoming completely unglued from her humanity. Miko was a fanatic in pursuit of her personal conception of Justice, and that's usually a bad thing. But a world like OOtS's could use more people like Celia, the Mercy fanatic. Hell, our world could use a few more of them.

Morally, I agree with you. I just wish she wasn't so darned annoying :smalltongue:




I like Celia as a plot device, I'd like her as a person, and I'd certainly retain her as my lawyer.

The first two, I can understand as a difference of opinion.

But really, would you actually want a lawyer who:

1. Utterly failed to take advantage of the situation when you suddenly managed to gain the upper hand.

2. Negotiated an employment contract without consulting you about it,

3. Completely screwed you over in order to satisfy her moral principles*,

4. Deliberately withheld important facets of the contract she wrote, in order to get you to sign it.

I'd have her disbarred faster than you can say "Jack Thompson"




(* Note I didn't say ethical principles. It's not fair to expect a lawyer to commit malpractice on your behalf, but it's unethical for the lawyer to impose their morals on a client. Ex: a Lawyer, representing a client charged with DUI, deliberately sabotages his defense because he believes alcohol consumption is immoral, and therefore his client should be punished)

[japandy42]

Yes, actually. Yes they will. They certainly can't try to kill anyone while they're dead.



They're still the same horrible people they were before Haley turned them into pincushions. Thanks to Celia, they'll even have the same horrible leader as they did before. Reviving them all is simply a mistake, with the sole bonus that they'll all come back a level weaker.



Come now, the comic itself and Haley explicitly disagree with you. What are the "MOBS" that were definitively mentioned during negotiations? Haley clearly seemed to think that preventing them from being in control was worth keeping the guild around for. So if Haley disagrees with you, where's your argument?

[wellington]

Yes, actually. Yes they will. They certainly can't try to kill anyone while they're dead.

Including the MOBS, who seem even more dangerous.


They're still the same horrible people they were before Haley turned them into pincushions. Thanks to Celia, they'll even have the same horrible leader as they did before. Reviving them all is simply a mistake, with the sole bonus that they'll all come back a level weaker.

Not killing any more of them once they ceased to be a threat is the extent of Haley's moral obligation. Even then, she should have finished Bozzok off, and to hell with Hank's objections.

Killing a power in a city has consequences. I know it's the adventurer standard to leave every hostile city and faction as a pile of corpses and XP, but if there's a way to prevent an all out gang-war, it should be taken. Even if it means letting horrible people live.

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety."


That's a moral quandary for the Lokians to worry about; last time I checked, Haley can't treat or resurrect anyone. As for the Guild, they're thieves that just came across a large stash of ranged magical weapons. If they really want to return their lowlife organization to its former glory, they don't need Haley's money to do it. Especially since the REASON they're having a membership deficiency is because they tried to KILL her.

As far as Celia knew, Haley was sitting on a large pile of stolen money, which could be used to resurrect the people she killed. So it's more than an academic point, it's the justification for her actions.

And the REASON the Guild tried to kill Haley was that she traipsed into town when she'd broken their rules, then compounded the insult by committing an unauthorized theft. Like it or not, the Guild is the law there. If they let Haley go, the appearance of weakness could do them real harm.


Such as the right to life? A right they tried their hardest to take from Haley? Does the phrase "self-defense" mean anything to you?

Sure. And it ends when your opponent can no longer hurt you. After that point, they are a casualty, and are to be treated as a casualty, with all the rights that entails.


You forgot getting them into this mess in the first place.

That's covered by "go in behind Haley's back."


I'd have no problem with what she did if she'd done it with her own resources. The best justification she could come up with was "well, you stole that wealth, so you've got as little right to it as I do." That still doesn't give her any right to spend it.

It doesn't give her a right to spend it, but, on the other hand, it doesn't give Haley a right to stop her. Property rights just don't apply here - and possession is only nine-tenths of the law in that it's illegal.


And murder is just a stronger version of assault, then? Please, let's not get into the morality of death/killing in a world where resurrections exist and the afterlife is physical and tangible.

In a sense, yes, it is. If somebody's definitely going to be raised, murder is just very severe assault!

Understanding Celia's move requires us to get into the morality of killing and rezzing. If we just treat it the cavalier way adventurers do, of course we're going to take the adventurer's side.


Don't forget, she didn't renegotiate the contract once she found Haley had gained the upper hand. That was a pretty big mistake, if you ask me.

The line between "renegotiate" and "renege" is sort of thin in these circumstances. In any case, what part would she drop, and why?


1. Utterly failed to take advantage of the situation when you suddenly managed to gain the upper hand.

She took advantage of it, all right. That seems to be what people are complaining about!


2. Negotiated an employment contract without consulting you about it,

Given that Haley was otherwise occupied when the iron was hot, better to move quickly.


3. Completely screwed you over in order to satisfy her moral principles*,

Why, yes! I'd very much like a lawyer who'd be willing to screw me over to save several lives, to the best of her knowledge. It's not a situation that comes up often, but if it did, I'd want her to do the decent thing.


4. Deliberately withheld important facets of the contract she wrote, in order to get you to sign it.

See the above bit about saving lives. If I were in a position where I could bring back some people I killed by paying money, I'd want my lawyer to put it to me honestly. But if I'd say no to that, I wouldn't be me.

In other words, I wouldn't want Celia for my lawyer if I were Haley, but I'm not Haley. My values and Celia's line up pretty darn well.

[Optimystik]

Come now, the comic itself and Haley explicitly disagree with you. What are the "MOBS" that were definitively mentioned during negotiations? Haley clearly seemed to think that preventing them from being in control was worth keeping the guild around for. So if Haley disagrees with you, where's your argument?

Are we reading the same comic? Where'd you get that from? Her exact words were: "Please. Someone says that every time there's a change around here. I just don't see it." And in THE VERY NEXT STRIP, she tells Hank that he "failed to make his case." So in what way does Haley think the Guild is necessary? In what was is she disagreeing with me?

Making things up really won't help your argument, you know.
Response to wellington forthcoming.

[Optimystik]

Including the MOBS, who seem even more dangerous.

What are you basing that on? You know the blue dragon was just there for humor, right? I bet you think Cyclops (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0560.html) and the Final Fantasy crew (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html) are really part of the comic too.


Killing a power in a city has consequences. I know it's the adventurer standard to leave every hostile city and faction as a pile of corpses and XP, but if there's a way to prevent an all out gang-war, it should be taken. Even if it means letting horrible people live.

How do you know what action should and shouldn't be taken? You can't impose your values on Haley. (Well, unless you're an annoying pixie at any rate.) If she sees no problem with ousting Bozzok, then there probably isn't. She understands the situation better than you do.


"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety."

Thanks, Gandalf. But resurrection doesn't exist in LotR, so nice try. Losing a level is the least that Bozz deserves, and if the Guild really wants him back they can scrimp for a while to get the necessary diamond. The setback would do them good.


As far as Celia knew, Haley was sitting on a large pile of stolen money, which could be used to resurrect the people she killed. So it's more than an academic point, it's the justification for her actions.

And the REASON the Guild tried to kill Haley was that she traipsed into town when she'd broken their rules, then compounded the insult by committing an unauthorized theft. Like it or not, the Guild is the law there. If they let Haley go, the appearance of weakness could do them real harm.

So murdering her en masse was the only way they could save face? Is that what you're really suggesting?


Sure. And it ends when your opponent can no longer hurt you. After that point, they are a casualty, and are to be treated as a casualty, with all the rights that entails.

I never said finishing Bozzok off would be self-defense. All Haley's kills BEFORE that, were. Killing Bozzok would be a richly deserved execution.


That's covered by "go in behind Haley's back."

Which makes it less stupid in what way?

[Reverent-One]

How do you know what action should and shouldn't be taken? You can't impose your values on Haley. (Well, unless you're an annoying pixie at any rate.) If she sees no problem with ousting Bozzok, then there probably isn't. She understands the situation better than you do.

Right, because Haley is totally unbiased, and she's perfect as well, I'm sure.

[/sarcasm]

[Optimystik]

Right, because Haley is totally unbiased, and she's perfect as well, I'm sure.

[/sarcasm]

She doesn't have to be perfect or unbiased to understand Greysky politics. She grew up there, remember?

[Reverent-One]

She doesn't have to be perfect or unbiased to understand Greysky politics. She grew up there, remember?

So did Hank. And any bias she has affects her judgement. Bias like having people assigned to kill you.

[Optimystik]

So did Hank. And any bias she has affects her judgement. Bias like having people assigned to kill you.

Yet clearly his argument is something he has tried before. Her retort is that it never turns out that way.

It reminds me of Animal Farm; every time the pigs did something the animals felt uneasy about, Squealer would say "Surely you don't want Jones to come back?" and that would keep them in line with the status quo. That's what Hank is doing now.

[Reverent-One]

Yet clearly his argument is something he has tried before. Her retort is that it never turns out that way.

It reminds me of Animal Farm; every time the pigs did something the animals felt uneasy about, Squealer would say "Surely you don't want Jones to come back?" and that would keep them in line with the status quo. That's what Hank is doing now.

First off is that she says "someone", not necessarily Hank, says something like that. Second is that she is referring to things turning video-gamey, not that a power struggle will occur and lower their chance of success, which can happen independently of things turning video-gamey. And notice that once she finds out that Durkon may not be on his way, she becomes less sure of their chances, meaning that Celia's deal does in fact leave them in a better position.

[Optimystik]

First off is that she says "someone", not necessarily Hank, says something like that. Second is that she is referring to things turning video-gamey, not that a power struggle will occur and lower their chance of success, which can happen independently of things turning video-gamey.

Whether its Hank or not is irrelevant, because he's every bit as biased as Haley is. He wants the Guild to stay in power, so naturally he predicts all kinds of doom if they're ousted. Shocking.


And notice that once she finds out that Durkon may not be on his way, she becomes less sure of their chances, meaning that Celia's deal does in fact leave them in a better position.

No, it MIGHT leave them in a better position. Again, you don't know that for sure. In fact, chances are high that Cole finished the sending as planned - he wasn't interrupted, he has a sense of honor, and Haley gave him everything he needed to successfully contact Durkon - so for all you know, waiting and keeping her money might be even better for Haley than being reinstated into the Guild.

[Reverent-One]

Whether its Hank or not is irrelevant, because he's every bit as biased as Haley is. He wants the Guild to stay in power, so naturally he predicts all kinds of doom if they're ousted. Shocking.

True, but I'm not just relying on Hank for my opinion, because a power struggle ensuing in a criminal organization in the aftermath of the loss of their leader makes sense. It would be what I would expect.


No, it MIGHT leave them in a better position. Again, you don't know that for sure. In fact, chances are high that Cole finished the sending as planned - he wasn't interrupted, he has a sense of honor, and Haley gave him everything he needed to successfully contact Durkon - so for all you know, waiting and keeping her money might be even better for Haley than being reinstated into the Guild.

And if you were a character in this story, without fourth wall breaking knowledge, which sounds better, 100% chance of getting all of your primary goals accomplished in total safety, or somewhat less in a town of people hostile to you? It's really not a hard choice, at least for me, especially when the world is depending on you to prevent something like the snarl from destroying the world.

[Optimystik]

True, but I'm not just relying on Hank for my opinion, because a power struggle ensuing in a criminal organization in the aftermath of the loss of their leader makes sense. It would be what I would expect.

Neither am I just relying on Haley's assessment. The ensuing chaos of a power struggle, even assuming it would happen immediately after Bozzok's death (highly unlikely) would provide the perfect cover for them to infiltrate Grub's castle and recover Roy's body. Doubly so if he's forced to deploy his golems to protect him from rioting mobs.


And if you were a character in this story, without fourth wall breaking knowledge, which sounds better, 100% chance of getting all of your primary goals accomplished in total safety, or somewhat less in a town of people hostile to you? It's really not a hard choice, at least for me, especially when the world is depending on you to prevent something like the snarl from destroying the world.

You're making the fatal assumption that working with the Thieves' Guild is "total safety." Bozzok Wants. Haley. Dead. No amount of contracts will change that. Even if you want the Guild to stay on top to keep the city under control, Bozzok doesn't need to be alive to accomplish that. Hank has proven to be a very capable and non-sadistic leader.

The Snarl's presence is also irrelevant. Even if the TG knew of it, their reaction would be very close to Nale's (i.e. "I don't really understand this, but there's got to be a way I can benefit.")

[Kish]

She doesn't have to be perfect or unbiased to understand Greysky politics. She grew up there, remember?
And she never saw anything wrong with a contract which cost her nearly all of the value of a diamond she stole for the Thieves' Guild until she needed to ransom her father. I sure wouldn't trust her judgment, least of all where the Guild is concerned.

[Reverent-One]

Neither am I just relying on Haley's assessment. The ensuing chaos of a power struggle, even assuming it would happen immediately after Bozzok's death (highly unlikely) would provide the perfect cover for them to infiltrate Grub's castle and recover Roy's body. Doubly so if he's forced to deploy his golems to protect him from rioting mobs.

If this was the case, why did Haley agree to the deal in the first place? Without being certain Durkon is on the way, she doesn't seem to like the idea of risking it.


You're making the fatal assumption that working with the Thieves' Guild is "total safety." Bozzok Wants. Haley. Dead. No amount of contracts will change that. Even if you want the Guild to stay on top to keep the city under control, Bozzok doesn't need to be alive to accomplish that. Hank has proven to be a very capable and non-sadistic leader.

Why would he, given the way this benefits the thieves' guild? He wants her dead because you can't leave the guild except by death. With this deal, she effectively never left, plus the other benefits they recieve. So yeah, it does look like they'll have the party together and be on their merry way by the weekend, even Haley thinks so. And yes, Bozzok does need to be alive, whether or not Hank is a capable leader, he still isn't in charge now. It took Bozzok a year to consolidate power, no reason to think it would be any different now.


The Snarl's presence is also irrelevant. Even if the TG knew of it, their reaction would be very close to Nale's (i.e. "I don't really understand this, but there's got to be a way I can benefit.")

It's relevant for the purpose of motivation to the members of the order. Like I said, if you knew the very existence of the world was in your hands, would you risk it just for the chance to engage in more violence when a safer, more certain way existed?

[Optimystik]

If this was the case, why did Haley agree to the deal in the first place? Without being certain Durkon is on the way, she doesn't seem to like the idea of risking it.

Because she thought it was a good deal, on account of Celia withholding the part that would have soured her on it. Which brings me back to my Celia-hate.


Why would he, given the way this benefits the thieves' guild? He wants her dead because you can't leave the guild except by death. With this deal, she effectively never left, plus the other benefits they recieve. So yeah, it does look like they'll have the party together and be on their merry way by the weekend, even Haley thinks so. And yes, Bozzok does need to be alive, whether or not Hank is a capable leader, he still isn't in charge now. It took Bozzok a year to consolidate power, no reason to think it would be any different now.

So Bozzok will have absolutely no hard feelings when they thaw him out? You're being fairly naive. Oh yeah, and Crystal still wants her dead too.


It's relevant for the purpose of motivation to the members of the order. Like I said, if you knew the very existence of the world was in your hands, would you risk it just for the chance to engage in more violence when a safer, more certain way existed?

Having B-villains linger to trip them up later is going to waste every bit as much time as going to Cliffport instead of Greysky. See also V's Index Finger Dissertation.

[Finwe]

The line between "renegotiate" and "renege" is sort of thin in these circumstances. In any case, what part would she drop, and why?

Do the specifics really matter? She could have gotten a much better deal regardless.




She took advantage of it, all right. That seems to be what people are complaining about!

Uh, yes, that is.




Given that Haley was otherwise occupied when the iron was hot, better to move quickly.

Yeah, don't do anything like, say, go over the contract with her once the action's over.




Why, yes! I'd very much like a lawyer who'd be willing to screw me over to save several lives, to the best of her knowledge. It's not a situation that comes up often, but if it did, I'd want her to do the decent thing.

She's not saving lives. All she's doing is returning horrible people to their corporeal bodies. People who, I might add, all died in the process of attempting to murder. Keep in mind, death does not have nearly the same ramifications in this universe as it does RL. Resurrection isn't medical care so much as an inter-planar ride.



See the above bit about saving lives. If I were in a position where I could bring back some people I killed by paying money, I'd want my lawyer to put it to me honestly. But if I'd say no to that, I wouldn't be me.

In other words, I wouldn't want Celia for my lawyer if I were Haley, but I'm not Haley. My values and Celia's line up pretty darn well.

Sure, in this one particular case, you might agree with Celia. What happens when Celia has an opportunity to screw you in order to further values you two don't share? If you think your values are currently aligned, do you really think they'd stay that way forever?

[Reverent-One]

Because she thought it was a good deal, on account of Celia withholding the part that would have soured her on it. Which brings me back to my Celia-hate.

Because she knew Haley's emotional feelings towards gold would overwhelm her common-sense. Now, she doesn't know that there is a perfectly reasonable reason for said emotional feelings, but the end result is that Haley's judgment becomes suspect when money loss is involved. It's similar to taking the keys from a drunk friend before they go off driving and being a danger to themselves and others.


So Bozzok will have absolutely no hard feelings when they thaw him out? You're being fairly naive. Oh yeah, and Crystal still wants her dead too.

Do I think Bozzok would break a deal that gives several concrete benefits to the guild and saved his life in order to pick a fight with someone who already could have killed him once? No, I don't. He may be an orc, but I think he's smarter than that. Of course crystal still wants her dead, but to keep the contract, the guild needs to prevent her from trying anything in the immediate future.


Having B-villains linger to trip them up later is going to waste every bit as much time as going to Cliffport instead of Greysky. See also V's Index Finger Dissertation.

The guild didn't hunt Haley outside of greysky before, why would they now? Especially since she is now a member and benefiting them again? Crystal might, and I stress the might there, but the order would have no problems dealing with her.

My question still stands, if you knew the very existence of the world was in your hands, would you risk it just for the chance to engage in more violence when a safer, more certain way existed?

[Finwe]

My question still stands, if you knew the very existence of the world was in your hands, would you risk it just for the chance to engage in more violence when a safer, more certain way existed?

Keep in mind, we still have no idea how this will play out. When the guild realizes she has no way to pay, they may refuse resurrection. There's no reason to assume they won't, unless they're silly enough to wait until after ressurecting Roy to demand the money.

[Renegade Paladin]

I have been reading about all this abuse Celia has been getting, and eventually it annoyed me enough that I had to register to get it off my chest. Don't you guys understand that there is much more going on in this world than Haley and her loot?

In the battle with the thieves guild, a bunch of people died. The only way to rez them, which for Celia is the most important thing (and you can disagree with her about that, but it's certainly not a selfish or stupid objective). It takes money to rez them. Now where is there money?

Oh right! Haley has a ton of loot that she has been hoarding. So Celia decided to use that to raise all the "victims" of the violence. Why does that not make sense?? Yes, she's also using it as an excuse to assert her morals onto Haley, but that is in no way why she did it.

I think if you think about it from this perspective, it's hard to hold a lot against Celia, and I certainly don't understand the rampant hate just because of this.
The thieves were trying to assassinate them. What part of that is hard to grasp? Why she feels any obligation to resurrect people who happily tried to kill her (and who she played cheerleader for the killing of in the first place, I might add) is simply beyond me.

Yep. I like Celia as well, can't see why she is a "mary sue" in anyway. She is a nice outsider who is just trying to do what she thinks is the right thing without shoving it down anyone throats.
Without shoving it down anyone's throats? That's all she does!

[Reverent-One]

Keep in mind, we still have no idea how this will play out. When the guild realizes she has no way to pay, they may refuse resurrection. There's no reason to assume they won't, unless they're silly enough to wait until after ressurecting Roy to demand the money.

Well, like I said before, in some thread, my feelings about the contract are somewhat dependent on the what loot exactly she owes the 50% of. That's something that we can't discuss here though, as we do not know the exact terms of the contract until they are revealed in story. But the fundamental basis of the contract seems to be sound.

[Optimystik]

Because she knew Haley's emotional feelings towards gold would overwhelm her common-sense. Now, she doesn't know that there is a perfectly reasonable reason for said emotional feelings, but the end result is that Haley's judgment becomes suspect when money loss is involved. It's similar to taking the keys from a drunk friend before they go off driving and being a danger to themselves and others.

So you're saying... CELIA... is worried about HALEY'S common sense? Are you trying to entertain me?

Refresh my memory. When exactly did money loss impair Haley's judgment? As I recall, even when she lost her speech she was still firmly in command of her mental faculties (e.g. being the only member of the party to see through Shojo's ruse.)


Do I think Bozzok would break a deal that gives several concrete benefits to the guild and saved his life in order to pick a fight with someone who already could have killed him once? No, I don't. He may be an orc, but I think he's smarter than that. Of course crystal still wants her dead, but to keep the contract, the guild needs to prevent her from trying anything in the immediate future.

How can you define needing to keep your two highest-level members in check to uphold a contract as "total safety?" And keep in mind that Bozzok can obtain all of those "concrete benefits" you mention by killing Haley. So in what way is the contract protecting her?

The ONLY thing protecting her right now is her combat ability. As Haley put it, "your peaceful solution only worked because Belkar and I ladled on the violence first."


The guild didn't hunt Haley outside of greysky before, why would they now? Especially since she is now a member and benefiting them again? Crystal might, and I stress the might there, but the order would have no problems dealing with her.

They didn't know where she was. Bozzok himself says (#609) that they hunt down thieves that have left the Guild. He even says he isn't satisfied with them just leaving town. He doesn't just wait for them all to return to Greysky.

With him alive, Haley is going to have to look over her shoulder for the rest of her life, OR forfeit a large chunk of whatever she earns in the future to an organization she hates that tried to kill her. Take your pick.


My question still stands, if you knew the very existence of the world was in your hands, would you risk it just for the chance to engage in more violence when a safer, more certain way existed?

In what way is killing Bozzok risking the world's safety? Be specific. Did he become a Gate when I wasn't looking?

[Finwe]

They didn't know where she was. Bozzok himself says (#609) that they hunt down thieves that have left the Guild. He even says he isn't satisfied with them just leaving town. He doesn't just wait for them all to return to Greysky.

OOTPC's spoiler:

The only reason Bozzok didn't send assassins after Haley the first time she left was that she had made so much money for the guild, and she was leaving Greysky forever (so she said). He's definitely not going to give her the same courtesy



With him alive, Haley is going to have to look over her shoulder for the rest of her life, OR forfeit a large chunk of whatever she earns in the future to an organization she hates that tried to kill her. Take your pick.

Once the "Haley's dad" plot arc is over, Bozzok will not be in control of the thieves' guild, one way or another. She'll have a chance at revenge/freedom soon enough.

[Optimystik]

OtOoPC's spoiler:

The only reason Bozzok didn't send assassins after Haley the first time she left was that she had made so much money for the guild, and she was leaving Greysky forever (so she said). He's definitely not going to give her the same courtesy

Precisely. Thanks Fin.


Once the "Haley's dad" plot arc is over, Bozzok will not be in control of the thieves' guild, one way or another. She'll have a chance at revenge/freedom soon enough.

Or he will. Either way, this contract is just delaying the inevitable.

[Reverent-One]

So you're saying... CELIA... is worried about HALEY'S common sense? Are you trying to entertain me?

Refresh my memory. When exactly did money loss impair Haley's judgment? As I recall, even when she lost her speech she was still firmly in command of her mental faculties (e.g. being the only member of the party to see through Shojo's ruse.)

Despite all of Haley's secrets, her love of money isn't one of them. It would be a very easy assumption that she would veto any plan that involves her losing money for the simple fact that it loses her money.


How can you define needing to keep your two highest-level members in check to uphold a contract as "total safety?" And keep in mind that Bozzok can obtain all of those "concrete benefits" you mention by killing Haley. So in what way is the contract protecting her?

The ONLY thing protecting her right now is her combat ability. As Haley put it, "your peaceful solution only worked because Belkar and I ladled on the violence first."

When did crystal become their two highest level members? And no, he can't get every benefit if he kills her, for example, the fact that all adventuring parties will now have to wonder if their freelancer is an assassin for using a "scab". As Hank said, they have no reason to kill her. Don't you think that if there was a chance that the guild would betray the deal, Haley would be worried about it? Given her experience with them, she should be the most paranoid person about it happening. Yet she isn't worried, so your argument that they'll just turn on her doesn't hold water, with no support in-comic.


They didn't know where she was. Bozzok himself says (#609) that they hunt down thieves that have left the Guild. He even says he isn't satisfied with them just leaving town. He doesn't just wait for them all to return to Greysky.

With him alive, Haley is going to have to look over her shoulder for the rest of her life, OR forfeit a large chunk of whatever she earns in the future to an organization she hates that tried to kill her. Take your pick.

She hasn't had to do so far, so why would this change? Even if she quits the guild once more after the immediate problems have been dealt with, she's been fine so far. Why is that worth the risk to their primary goals that happens by skipping the deal?

EDIT: to include a response to Fin's post, even if assassins were now sent out, given what Haley and Belkar have been able to do to the guild, to be able to overwhelm the entire order would seem to require the guild to put forth an immense effort, and even then, could very well fail. A relatively minor issue for the future in comparison to the risk of Xykon's plan to the world. The wisest course of action would be to get the order together as quickly as possible, worrying about a very maybe-threat when the time comes.


In what way is killing Bozzok risking the world's safety? Be specific. Did he become a Gate when I wasn't looking?

The Oots's ability to save the world is directly dependent on their survival. Through the deal, their odds of survival go up. Why risk failing by killing Bozzok and losing the easy way to get the order back together and stop Xykon?

[Optimystik]

Despite all of Haley's secrets, her love of money isn't one of them. It would be a very easy assumption that she would veto any plan that involves her losing money for the simple fact that it loses her money.

And you're basing this on... what, exactly? In fact, you're talking about a woman who spent every coin of her own money supplying the resistance. Celia knew about THAT much, even if she didn't know about Haley's dad. Your "assumption," as you so accurately labelled it, is utterly baseless.


When did crystal become their two highest level members?

She's the same level as Haley, or higher (#581). Hank may be higher, but I doubt it, and it's irrelevant to my point in any case.


And no, he can't get every benefit if he kills her, for example, the fact that all adventuring parties will now have to wonder if their freelancer is an assassin for using a "scab". As Hank said, they have no reason to kill her. Don't you think that if there was a chance that the guild would betray the deal, Haley would be worried about it? Given her experience with them, she should be the most paranoid person about it happening. Yet she isn't worried, so your argument that they'll just turn on her doesn't hold water, with no support in-comic.

She IS paranoid; she feels uneasy (#621). And we haven't heard Bozzok's opinion of the contract yet, or if Haley plans to go through with everything stipulated after Roy is brought back. Personally, I'm in favor of tossing Roy some clothes, perforating any thieves before they can react, and skipping town with the rest of Grub's treasure in tow.


She hasn't had to do so far, so why would this change? Even if she quits the guild once more after the immediate problems have been dealt with, she's been fine so far. Why is that worth the risk to their primary goals that happens by skipping the deal?

Before, Bozzok had a business interest in killing her; now it's personal as well.


The Oots's ability to save the world is directly dependent on their survival. Through the deal, their odds of survival go up. Why risk failing by killing Bozzok and losing the easy way to get the order back together and stop Xykon?

Haley's chances of survival are much higher with Bozzok dead. Even Crystal wanted to keep her alive until Bozzok told her otherwise.


EDIT: to include a response to Fin's post, even if assassins were now sent out, given what Haley and Belkar have been able to do to the guild, to be able to overwhelm the entire order would seem to require the guild to put forth an immense effort, and even then, could very well fail. A relatively minor issue for the future in comparison to the risk of Xykon's plan to the world. The wisest course of action would be to get the order together as quickly as possible, worrying about a very maybe-threat when the time comes.

False dichotomy. The choices are not "accept the contract" or "risk dooming the world", whatever you seem to think.

[Fri]

I'm not interested in joining the debate, but yes, I'm here to announce my liking to Celia. Yay, hoo! Go Celia. I like her as I like Miko.

But the difference between my liking to them is, I like miko as a character, but maybe I won't like her as real person. But Celia, she's kinda cool as both, though not perfect (as every real character do).

[Reverent-One]

And you're basing this on... what, exactly? In fact, you're talking about a woman who spent every coin of her own money supplying the resistance. Celia knew about THAT much, even if she didn't know about Haley's dad. Your "assumption," as you so accurately labelled it, is utterly baseless.

She's also cheated her party in loot several times, and while they might not be aware of all the times she did this, it is common knowledge within the party that she would do so, and Celia seems to have been around her long enough to be able to pick up on this. Supplying the resistence was something immediately necessary to her survival.


She's the same level as Haley, or higher (#581). Hank may be higher, but I doubt it, and it's irrelevant to my point in any case.

Irrelavent? Your point was that since the guild had to restrain their two highest members, this deal was still very risky for Haley and crew. That makes it rather relevant.


She IS paranoid; she feels uneasy (#621). And we haven't heard Bozzok's opinion of the contract yet, or if Haley plans to go through with everything stipulated after Roy is brought back. Personally, I'm in favor of tossing Roy some clothes, perforating any thieves before they can react, and skipping town with the rest of Grub's treasure in tow.

In 621, where is she uneasy about the guild betraying her? She thinks it's wierd to be back in the guild hall after she was just fighting them, but that's not the same thing. She's uneasy about the windfall and Hank and Celia's veiled references to it, but there's no worry about the guild betraying her.


Before, Bozzok had a business interest in killing her; now it's personal as well.

Haley's chances of survival are much higher with Bozzok dead. Even Crystal wanted to keep her alive until Bozzok told her otherwise.

With the full order with her? Given the damage she and belkar did on their own, the chance of the guild hurting the order seems quite low, and if the order can't handle the guild, they stand no chance against xykon, who leads whole armies. Long term, the guild is a minor threat at best.


False dichotomy. The choices are not "accept the contract" or "risk dooming the world", whatever you seem to think.

They pretty much are. By not accepting the contract, they are refusing an effective guarentee to get the order back together, and Haley and crew end up in a more dangerous situation. At the cost of what? Some money? Is that worth increasing the risks to their primary goals?

[Optimystik]

She's also cheated her party in loot several times, and while they might not be aware of all the times she did this, it is common knowledge within the party that she would do so, and Celia seems to have been around her long enough to be able to pick up on this. Supplying the resistence was something immediately necessary to her survival.

Your point was that she might become irrational if she knew she was going to lose money. What does cheating the Order have to do with that? And how would Celia have known about that? I'm still waiting for justification of that claim.


Irrelavent? Your point was that since the guild had to restrain their two highest members, this deal was still very risky for Haley and crew. That makes it rather relevant.

Bozzok is still the highest member of the Guild (and indeed, one of the highest levels in the comic.) Since Hank doesn't outrank him and Crystal is at most 4 levels behind, the levels of the others are indeed irrelevant. They won't countermand his wishes.


In 621, where is she uneasy about the guild betraying her? She thinks it's wierd to be back in the guild hall after she was just fighting them, but that's not the same thing. She's uneasy about the windfall and Hank and Celia's veiled references to it, but there's no worry about the guild betraying her.

Uh, she didn't know about the windfall until 5 panels later. And I didn't specify what she was feeling uneasy about, because she doesn't say. But clearly she is not 100% comfortable with the situation or she wouldn't feel weird.

Even if she was totally fine with the deal, it's still invalid because Celia deliberately hid details from her.


With the full order with her? Given the damage she and belkar did on their own, the chance of the guild hurting the order seems quite low, and if the order can't handle the guild, they stand no chance against xykon, who leads whole armies. Long term, the guild is a minor threat at best.

Oh, because I'm sure any assassins that come after Haley will announce their identities, draw a line in the sand, and challenge her to an honorable duel, right? Keep in mind that no matter how high their levels are, they all have horrible spot checks too.


They pretty much are. By not accepting the contract, they are refusing an effective guarentee to get the order back together, and Haley and crew end up in a more dangerous situation. At the cost of what? Some money? Is that worth increasing the risks to their primary goals?

Again, you have no way of knowing it will be more dangerous. You also have no way of knowing if this was the best way to get Roy back. And finally, you have no way of knowing if Haley will stick with this contract after Roy is revived.

[Reverent-One]

Your point was that she might become irrational if she knew she was going to lose money. What does cheating the Order have to do with that? And how would Celia have known about that? I'm still waiting for justification of that claim.

Well, if she's willing to cheat the very people who she fights alongside for a little more cash, that does indicate at least a slight obsession with money. It's common knowledge to the party as far back the early story arc, like the trick with the rocks that Roy calls her out on? None of the party disagree that she would do such a thing. At about the same time, Durkon also mentions to her her extreme love of money. In short, it's no secret, and Celia been around her long enough at this point to pick up on that.


Bozzok is still the highest member of the Guild (and indeed, one of the highest levels in the comic.) Since Hank doesn't outrank him and Crystal is at most 4 levels behind, the levels of the others are indeed irrelevant. They won't countermand his wishes.

About Bozzok, so? I still contend that he most likely won't turn on the deal, which is supported by the actions of the characters in the comic.


Uh, she didn't know about the windfall until 5 panels later.

Of course, but I merely mentioning everything she was uneasy about in that comic in order to show that she is displaying no worry about the guild betraying her.


And I didn't specify what she was feeling uneasy about, because she doesn't say. But clearly she is not 100% comfortable with the situation or she wouldn't feel weird.

Yes, she does say, it's because she was just fighting them and now she is back on good terms with them. That's quite a change in a short amount of time. Still no worry about betrayal.


Even if she was totally fine with the deal, it's still invalid because Celia deliberately hid details from her.

Except that Haley's feelings toward money cloud her judgment in this regard, making not telling her imeadiately a wise choice.


Oh, because I'm sure any assassins that come after Haley will announce their identities, draw a line in the sand, and challenge her to an honorable duel, right? Keep in mind that no matter how high their levels are, they all have horrible spot checks too.

Between having to find the order in the world, and then kill them all quickly enough for them not to be able to fight back, it seems like the guild would have to invest a major portion of their force in order to do even stand a chance, which is extermely cost ineffective. As such I don't see the guild being any more than a minor threat in the future.


Again, you have no way of knowing it will be more dangerous. You also have no way of knowing if this was the best way to get Roy back. And finally, you have no way of knowing if Haley will stick with this contract after Roy is revived.

Well, the contract, short of a short-term betrayal, looks to be certain to let them accomplish their goals, while if they do not accept the contract, there is not even that much certainty, so yeah, it is more dangerous. And it doesn't matter if Haley keeps to the contract in the long term, she sticks around till the order is together, and off they go to take care of Xykon. Once that is dealt with, they can even simply come back and crush the guild if need be.

[Finwe]

Well, the contract, short of a short-term betrayal, looks to be certain to let them accomplish their goals,

Why exactly will the guild help Haley when they learn she's unable to pay up?

[Reverent-One]

Why exactly will the guild help Haley when they learn she's unable to pay up?

If, in fact, she is, to an extent large enough to affect the deal. Like I said before, there's too many if's, maybe's, and could be's in the specifics of the money part of the deal for me to say anything, I'll be happy to debate that once we actually learn more about the terms in-comic. While Belkar's awesome as always, I was hoping that we'd get some more specifics in the latest comic for percisely this reason.

[Optimystik]

Well, if she's willing to cheat the very people who she fights alongside for a little more cash, that does indicate at least a slight obsession with money. It's common knowledge to the party as far back the early story arc, like the trick with the rocks that Roy calls her out on? None of the party disagree that she would do such a thing. At about the same time, Durkon also mentions to her her extreme love of money. In short, it's no secret, and Celia been around her long enough at this point to pick up on that.

Making sure she gets the largest cut of the treasure doesn't mean she would lose her head over having to spend some of it. She is a kleptomaniac, but not a miser - Azure City proved that. She spent every coin she had saved for her father on the welfare of strangers.


About Bozzok, so? I still contend that he most likely won't turn on the deal, which is supported by the actions of the characters in the comic.

Hank says *he* will honor the deal. He didn't say a thing about Bozzok. We still don't know how he'll react to this.

We know how Crystal reacts though: murderously. And she's his partner in crime.


Of course, but I merely mentioning everything she was uneasy about in that comic in order to show that she is displaying no worry about the guild betraying her.

Yes, she does say, it's because she was just fighting them and now she is back on good terms with them. That's quite a change in a short amount of time. Still no worry about betrayal.

She isn't worried because her capacity for violence is still present to quell them should the need arise, not because she's being wide-eyed and trusting of their benevolent intentions.


Except that Haley's feelings toward money cloud her judgment in this regard, making not telling her imeadiately a wise choice.

It wasn't wise at all; Celia didn't have all the information she would need to make a truly wise choice.


Between having to find the order in the world, and then kill them all quickly enough for them not to be able to fight back, it seems like the guild would have to invest a major portion of their force in order to do even stand a chance, which is extermely cost ineffective. As such I don't see the guild being any more than a minor threat in the future.

Again, you're assuming they'd have to assault the Order head-on to get at Haley. You're not thinking like a thief.

I don't see them as being more than a minor threat in the future either, but we'll see why that is when we see what becomes of Celia's contract after Roy is alive again.


Well, the contract, short of a short-term betrayal, looks to be certain to let them accomplish their goals, while if they do not accept the contract, there is not even that much certainty, so yeah, it is more dangerous. And it doesn't matter if Haley keeps to the contract in the long term, she sticks around till the order is together, and off they go to take care of Xykon. Once that is dealt with, they can even simply come back and crush the guild if need be.

Or, she can crush the guild now and not worry about them ever again. I know which one I'd prefer.

[Reverent-One]

Making sure she gets the largest cut of the treasure doesn't mean she would lose her head over having to spend some of it. She is a kleptomaniac, but not a miser - Azure City proved that. She spent every coin she had saved for her father on the welfare of strangers.

And herself, since she herself was also in Azure city. And I'm not saying that would effectively commit suicide rather than lose money, but it so far has more influence on her then many people.


Hank says *he* will honor the deal. He didn't say a thing about Bozzok. We still don't know how he'll react to this.

We know how Crystal reacts though: murderously. And she's his partner in crime.

Crystal's also Haley's nemesis. Like I've said before, Haley has yet to show worry about the guild betraying her, and I do agree that she should know best in this case.


She isn't worried because her capacity for violence is still present to quell them should the need arise, not because she's being wide-eyed and trusting of their benevolent intentions.

So in the end, the deal still lets them accomplish their goals in relative safety.


It wasn't wise at all; Celia didn't have all the information she would need to make a truly wise choice.

She made the wisest choice with the information available to her at the time, and that's the most she can do. And it still looks like a good choice overall, only time will tell if it stays that way.


Again, you're assuming they'd have to assault the Order head-on to get at Haley. You're not thinking like a thief.

I don't see them as being more than a minor threat in the future either, but we'll see why that is when we see what becomes of Celia's contract after Roy is alive again.

We will have to see that, for now though, the contract seems to be the right choice.


Or, she can crush the guild now and not worry about them ever again. I know which one I'd prefer.

Except by doing so, she increases their risk in the short term, since they don't know if Durkon's on his way or not.

[Finwe]

If, in fact, she is, to an extent large enough to affect the deal. Like I said before, there's too many if's, maybe's, and could be's in the specifics of the money part of the deal for me to say anything, I'll be happy to debate that once we actually learn more about the terms in-comic. While Belkar's awesome as always, I was hoping that we'd get some more specifics in the latest comic for percisely this reason.

Indeed. I'm still quasi-hoping that she actually pulled off a brilliant negotiating coup where-bye the guild is the party being screwed over, but even then, why should the guild honor the deal if they're not profiting from it? Haley and Belkar's threats? If we assume that they're capable of wiping out the guild, doesn't that just put everyone back to square one?

Anyways, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. It's too early to tell whether the contract helped or not.

[Optimystik]

And herself, since she herself was also in Azure city. And I'm not saying that would effectively commit suicide rather than lose money, but it so far has more influence on her then many people.

On her speech, yes, but not her judgment. She was still one of the smarter party members after the trauma occurred, rendering your concerns moot.


Crystal's also Haley's nemesis. Like I've said before, Haley has yet to show worry about the guild betraying her, and I do agree that she should know best in this case.

And Bozzok isn't? And again, she isn't worried about the guild betraying her because she can pile on the whoop-ass to stop them. She tells Celia as much in 621.


So in the end, the deal still lets them accomplish their goals in relative safety.

As would Bozzok's death. Do you really think Hank would still be telling the Lokians not to help her after she finished off his boss?


She made the wisest choice with the information available to her at the time, and that's the most she can do. And it still looks like a good choice overall, only time will tell if it stays that way.

So good a choice that Haley is ready to strangle her and Hank is smiling ear to ear. Yep, she really dealed that one down.


We will have to see that, for now though, the contract seems to be the right choice.

If things work out (and they will), it will be in spite of Celia, not because of her.


Except by doing so, she increases their risk in the short term, since they don't know if Durkon's on his way or not.

Okay, rez Roy and then crush them, breaking the contract in the process. Problem solved.

[Reverent-One]

On her speech, yes, but not her judgment. She was still one of the smarter party members after the trauma occurred, rendering your concerns moot.


So good a choice that Haley is ready to strangle her and Hank is smiling ear to ear. Yep, she really dealed that one down.

I'll deal with both of these points together. You know why she's ready to strangle Celia? ....Because of that emotional attachment to the money! Like I said, it's an understandable attachment, but still, it influences her judgment. If it were Roy, Durkon, V, or elan, they wouldn't turn on an increased chance of survival simply due to an addition cash fee. It's like asking Roy to make a deal that hurts his chance of ending the blood fued, or V to give up knowledge, or Durkon the chance to return home, or pre-shoju belkar to not kill anything.


And Bozzok isn't? And again, she isn't worried about the guild betraying her because she can pile on the whoop-ass to stop them. She tells Celia as much in 621.

Does Bozzok gain levels everytime Haley does? No? Then he isn't. He wants Haley dead for business reasons, and after this may very well harbor a grudge since she beat him, but I don't see him ignoring a viable deal for the guild and risk more death for simple vengence.


As would Bozzok's death. Do you really think Hank would still be telling the Lokians not to help her after she finished off his boss?

Comic 620, the clerics won't deal with her if she kills bozzok. She accepts this as fact.


If things work out (and they will), it will be in spite of Celia, not because of her.

If things work out as a result of the deal, then it will also be because of Celia.


Okay, rez Roy and then crush them, breaking the contract in the process. Problem solved.

Throw in making sure that they cast sending to Durkon first, and I'm up for that. I have no love for the guild. The point is that up to when the get Roy back and the message sent to Durkon, the contract is a benefit.

[Optimystik]

I'll deal with both of these points together. You know why she's ready to strangle Celia? ....Because of that emotional attachment to the money! Like I said, it's an understandable attachment, but still, it influences her judgment. If it were Roy, Durkon, V, or elan, they wouldn't turn on an increased chance of survival simply due to an addition cash fee. It's like asking Roy to make a deal that hurts his chance of ending the blood fued, or V to give up knowledge, or Durkon the chance to return home, or pre-shoju belkar to not kill anything.

You're being completely unfair to Haley. Every other time she's lost money she's kept her head, and when she gets mad this time it's because she has an irrational attachment to money. Never mind the fact that the reason she lost it here is because of a holier-than-thou pixie making deals behind her back with her enemies.

And you keep saying "increased chance of survival," but I fail to see how they were in more danger with Bozzok removed from the picture. It makes no sense whatsoever.


Does Bozzok gain levels everytime Haley does? No? Then he isn't. He wants Haley dead for business reasons, and after this may very well harbor a grudge since she beat him, but I don't see him ignoring a viable deal for the guild and risk more death for simple vengence.

Bozzok is Haley's father's nemesis. Why you think that should make him any more sympathetic to his daughter is beyond me. And if he was so willing to make a "viable deal" for the Guild's sake, why didn't he work one out to reinstate her in the first place instead of trying to murder her?


Comic 620, the clerics won't deal with her if she kills bozzok. She accepts this as fact.

She also has every intention of killing him anyway if she doesn't like what she hears. Which she would have done had Celia not lied by omission.


If things work out as a result of the deal, then it will also be because of Celia.

This opinion is why I'm fervently hoping Haley breaks it.


Throw in making sure that they cast sending to Durkon first, and I'm up for that. I have no love for the guild. The point is that up to when the get Roy back and the message sent to Durkon, the contract is a benefit.

There's nothing in that contract Haley couldn't have gotten by force.

[Finwe]

Okay, rez Roy and then crush them, breaking the contract in the process. Problem solved.

Why's the guild going to rez Roy before receiving payment?

[Optimystik]

Why's the guild going to rez Roy before receiving payment?

Hey, don't look at me, I think the whole situation is ridiculous. I just want the revenge killing to start up again, personally.

[lord_khaine]

Optimystik, i think you are missing a important point, first you argue that the guild will still be a threat for Haley, because any potential assasins they might send would not take them on in a straight up fight.

but then you ignore that not making peace with the guild would only increase the odds of random assasins in the night, or some nasty Con poison in the dinner.
yes they have killed a part of the guild, but im sure most of it is still at large out in greysky city, and it seems they are working close together with the temple of Loki, so they cant even be sure that anyone they kill will stay dead.

[Optimystik]

Optimystik, i think you are missing a important point, first you argue that the guild will still be a threat for Haley, because any potential assasins they might send would not take them on in a straight up fight.

but then you ignore that not making peace with the guild would only increase the odds of random assasins in the night, or some nasty Con poison in the dinner.
yes they have killed a part of the guild, but im sure most of it is still at large out in greysky city, and it seems they are working close together with the temple of Loki, so they cant even be sure that anyone they kill will stay dead.

I did not ignore it. Killing Bozzok would leave behind Hank, who has no personal and very little business desire to see Haley dead, and Crystal, whose idea of planning an assassination revolves around pickles. The situation would become inherently safer.

I'm not saying she should go back to massacring thieves, just that she should put their evil leader on ice - permanently - and use the large amount of exp that results to give her a nice boost toward Xykon. Or have you all forgotten that he is at least 4 levels her senior?

[Kish]

I'm not saying she should go back to massacring thieves, just that she should put their evil leader on ice - permanently - and use the large amount of exp that results to give her a nice boost toward Xykon.
As she pointed out to Belkar a long time ago, you get XP for defeating enemies, not killing them. Bozzok was defeated.

[Optimystik]

As she pointed out to Belkar a long time ago, you get XP for defeating enemies, not killing them. Bozzok was defeated.

If you mean right after beating Xykon, that was a story quest. You're incorrect in any case; Clearly Bozzok and Crystal had "defeated" Haley in #610, but Bozzok notes that they won't get the exp until they finish her. Why should the rules be any different for Haley?

[hamishspence]

I think they mean when Belkar went after Elan "Stand still! I just need to "defeat" you!"

[Optimystik]

I think they mean when Belkar went after Elan "Stand still! I just need to "defeat" you!"

That was in response to Elan saying Belkar needed to "defeat" something more challenging than a rat. He meant it as a synonym for "kill."

[hamishspence]

Nale and Thog are defeated, the bandits are defeated- not awarding XP at these points would be a bit atypical. As for Crystal and Bozzok, it might depend on the nature of the situation.

if the goal was "do what Grubwiggler asked" it wouldn't be solved till Haley was dead.

By contrast, in the above cases, even a non-lethal defeat allows the Order to progress onward, so they get XPs for those.

[Optimystik]

Nale and Thog are defeated, the bandits are defeated- not awarding XP at these points would be a bit atypical. As for Crystal and Bozzok, it might depend on the nature of the situation.

Haley might or might not get exp for leaving Bozzok alive, but we know she'll get it for killing him. I'd go with the safer bet.


if the goal was "do what Grubwiggler asked" it wouldn't be solved till Haley was dead.

Grubwiggler asked for his money (and pixie) back. Killing Haley was all Bozzok's idea.


By contrast, in the above cases, even a non-lethal defeat allows the Order to progress onward, so they get XPs for those.

Again, we don't know for sure if non-lethal defeats grant exp, only that lethal ones do.

[Occasional Sage]

That was in response to Elan saying Belkar needed to "defeat" something more challenging than a rat. He meant it as a synonym for "kill."

I think he meant it literally: he needed to take Elan's feet off.

[Kish]

If you mean right after beating Xykon, that was a story quest.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html

[Optimystik]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html

Even assuming the earliest strips have reliable (i.e. non-humor based) physics, that still doesn't negate Bozzok's observation in #610, that XP is only gotten from killing. Which one is right depends on the Giant; as I said before however, killing is guaranteed to give XP, while defeat depends purely on the situation. It's the safer bet.

[Senex]

Even assuming the earliest strips have reliable (i.e. non-humor based) physics, that still doesn't negate Bozzok's observation in #610, that XP is only gotten from killing. Which one is right depends on the Giant; as I said before however, killing is guaranteed to give XP, while defeat depends purely on the situation. It's the safer bet.
"It's totally cool for us to go around killing people. As long as it makes it more convenient for us, why worry?" - Elan, strip 596.

[magic9mushroom]

Miko was Lawful Stupid, Celia is Stupid Good. It's highly ironic that it ends up Miko being the one to destroy the gate and (partially) release the essence of Chaos into the world.

It'd be funny if something similar happened with Celia, like her sacrificing herself for Belkar or Xykon.

[Optimystik]

"It's totally cool for us to go around killing people. As long as it makes it more convenient for us, why worry?" - Elan, strip 596.

If you recall from that very strip you quoted, the only reason Elan had a problem with what V did was that V acted without knowing who Kubota was or what he had done. Neither Celia nor Haley has that problem.

"I was just saying that I guess Kubota got what was coming to him after all." -Elan, strip 596.

[hamishspence]

"I guess its for the greater good, it just feels so weird, even for a jerkhead like him"

Sounds like he still has a bit of a problem with it, even before he finds out how little V knew.

[Optimystik]

"I guess its for the greater good, it just feels so weird, even for a jerkhead like him"

Sounds like he still has a bit of a problem with it, even before he finds out how little V knew.

But he DID deem it necessary, something Celia would never do. Before he figured out how little motivation V had, anyway.

[Lerky]

Now, I know there is a strong possibility that I will be thrown off the forums for this, but the fact remains. I like her.

I like the fact she is a humanist, despite not being human.
I like that she is completely out of her water in the current situation, but still TRIES to do her best.
I even like that she stuffs up. I would stuff up, so it makes me feel like these things are feasible. Plus it removes all Mary Sue claims.
I like that she tries to intellectualise her way out of situations.

Oh, and yeah, I like she's a vegetarian.

I like her.

You may now abuse me wholeheartedly.

we've never met before, and yet I feel an odd spiritual kinship:smalltongue:


No, I never liked Miko :smallyuk:

She was far too arrogant.

In the current situation, I can see Celia realising that she has ruined Haley and then trying to make things right, by, for example, offering to help pay. Miko would have just gone "It was ill gotten gains, you evil doer" or something like that.

you forgot the most important part! SLASH SLASH SLASH!

[Ronan]

I admit I haven't read all until my post, but I just dont want her to die. (she can "die" like Roy, which would be more of a plane shift. Return later)

But not like Miko. Come on! She is important. I almost threw the computer of the window (of a 3rd floor window :smalltongue:) when she gave Haleys 50% of the loot, but her pen vs. sword method is very nice.

Sure... then again there *are* over-talkative bards with very high charisma who stops *all* battles. Since it's not taking the fun side of the battles and perhaps she will be needed again... like at the time there wasn't a way to kill the whole sapphire guard and/or the being of pure Law and Good... Stayyy please :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

I almost threw the computer of the window (of a 3rd floor window :smalltongue:) when she gave Haleys 50% of the loot, but her pen vs. sword method is very nice.

You seem more emotional about Haley's money than Haley is! :smalleek:

[Lord Seth]

Celia is pretty cool. If anything she can certainly negotiate with nearly anyone. That's a pretty useful skill set.A bit late to the game, but I have to point out Celia's skill in "negotating".

"Well, my team is winning and your team is pretty much doomed, so let's make a treaty. It is considerably in your favor."

That's not negotiating. That's...stupidity.

[Gloverboy]

I like her too! I mean, she kinda throws a wrench into some of the best laid plans, but that happens. She has her principles, and she stands by them. Being clueless about some things is pretty authentic, she's a friggin law student.

I think she's a good intro for an apostle of peace type character. It's pretty much like being a vegan in real life. Not only do you have to abstain from some of the fun parts of the game (killing and acquisition respectively) but you have to do that while your friends gleefully indulge.

if not for these types, we would all be shades of Belkar.

[The Extinguisher]

A bit late to the game, but I have to point out Celia's skill in "negotating".

"Well, my team is winning and your team is pretty much doomed, so let's make a treaty. It is considerably in your favor."

That's not negotiating. That's...stupidity.

I'd agree, if Celia had been watching the battle.
But again, she was kidnapped, probably going to be killed, and she had left Haley alone with the guy who nearly killed Haley right before Celia saved her.
From her view, it was a good deal for the situation.

But as is, it's still a good deal.

Haley gets Roy back, they can get him raised, she no longer has to deal with being wanted by the ENTIRE thieves guild and all it cost her was some of her ill-gotten money that was really just sitting there, in Celia's eyes.

If Haley wasn't a main character, and we didn't know that her dad was imprisoned and she needed the money for ransom, no one would be complaining.

[Lord Seth]

Except Celia steadfastly refuses to admit that the whole mess was her fault. When Haley complains about the agreement Celia worked out, Celia just makes a sarcastic comment. Not any kind of apologetic explanation like "well I didn't know you had stolen that much" or "I thought this was the fastest way to fix things", just a sarcastic comment aimed at Haley, seemingly oblivious to the fact that THIS WHOLE SITUATION WAS CELIA'S FAULT BECAUSE SHE WAS TOO STUPID TO LISTEN TO HALEY'S WARNINGS.

[Optimystik]

I'd agree, if Celia had been watching the battle.
But again, she was kidnapped, probably going to be killed, and she had left Haley alone with the guy who nearly killed Haley right before Celia saved her.
From her view, it was a good deal for the situation.

Ugh. How can you possibly use Celia's assessment of the last situation to justify this one? The guy who nearly killed her (a) had help from a high-level accomplice, and (b) Haley was unarmed at the time. Compare that to a fully-healed Haley busting out the door with a +5 icy bow in hand and a freshly-opened can of whoop-ass, and said accomplice occupied with an equally rejuvenated Belkar somewhere out of sight. Even Blind Pete could see those odds are completely different.


But as is, it's still a good deal.

Haley gets Roy back, they can get him raised, she no longer has to deal with being wanted by the ENTIRE thieves guild and all it cost her was some of her ill-gotten money that was really just sitting there, in Celia's eyes.

Not some. All. Even after she gives them every cent she took from Grub, it won't make a dent in the balance of what she knows, and Celia damn well knew it when she made the deal. She may not have known exactly how lucrative Haley's adventures were since leaving, but she knew that Haley wouldn't be able to foot the bill with just what she'd taken in Greysky. Her expression when she explains this part of the contract is very telling.


If Haley wasn't a main character, and we didn't know that her dad was imprisoned and she needed the money for ransom, no one would be complaining.

We don't even need to know all those details to know Celia fouled up. Her teammate is angry and the enemy is pleased at the deal. That's all you need to know about any negotiation to know that your agent screwed the pooch.

[Wikimaster]

I'm joining the pro-Celia bandwagon. I've been afraid to speak my mind for weeks, and I feel it's time to speak up. I don't like what has happened to Celia. I liked it when she shot Nale and Thog with a thunderbolt. I liked it when she tried to do her best at the trial (even though it was rigged for the OotS already). I liked it when she persuaded Haley to move out of Azure City and even managed to get her through a goblin checkpoint. And I'm going to keep remembering those moments whatever happens to her or whatever she does. That's my speech for the day, and it's final.

PS: I also like Miko too. She may have been a fanatic, but my anger against her faded in the end. May she see Windstriker again. The End!

[SPoD]

We don't even need to know all those details to know Celia fouled up. Her teammate is angry and the enemy is pleased at the deal. That's all you need to know about any negotiation to know that your agent screwed the pooch.

You keep calling Haley her "teammate", but she isn't. Haley is a criminal who is friends with Celia's boyfriend, period. Celia doesn't owe Haley any loyalty at all, she is here strictly to get Roy back. Haley isn't physically harmed by the deal, so screw her. Why should Celia care if Haley is mad? Haley is nobody to her. If Celia thought she could have gotten Roy back faster by snitching on Haley to the legal authorities of Greysky, she would have done so, because Haley is a murdering criminal and what she thinks about the situation doesn't matter at all.

Celia created a deal that got what she wanted and fell within the bounds of her alignment, and to hell with who liked it or didn't like it.