[4e]Battlerager fighter help

[Arros Winhadren]

So I made a 1st level Battlerager vigor fighter yesterday. Human, 16 STR, 18 CON, 13 DEX for Quick Draw and everything else was dumped. Naturally I picked up Improved Vigor. Currently I'm using a great axe and chain mail and loving it. However, I'm greatly disturbed by the bias I'm seeing towards being a Dwarf when making a Battlerager Fighter. More specifically, the feat that adds 1/2 your Con score to your Battlerager Vigor bonus . . . if you're a dwarf. So what's the big deal with that? Is there any way to make my human equally effective at tanking, or are they always going to take the silver (or bronze)?

[KKL]

Well if I were you I'd have gotten 18 Str and 16 con. You pretty much dropped the one thing you would've had over dwarves, which was 18 str. The problem dwarves have, you see, is that they hit less frequently and deal less damage, but are far too tough to kill, so monsters regularily just...avoid them. Or get their ranged friends to focus fire them to death.

[Asbestos]

Well if I were you I'd have gotten 18 Str and 16 con. You pretty much dropped the one thing you would've had over dwarves, which was 18 str. The problem dwarves have, you see, is that they hit less frequently and deal less damage, but are far too tough to kill, so monsters regularily just...avoid them. Or get their ranged friends to focus fire them to death.

And don't forget that Dragonborn are great because they get a feat that lets them get more hp from invigorating powers and another that let's them get a bonus to attack with invigorating attacks 1/encounter, making up for a potentially lower CON score. Dwarves also end up with that nifty +2 damage with axes/hammers though... which helps out the Battlerager even more.

Man, I'm not sure that Humans even get the bronze here. Of the PHB races, I think I might put Half-elf in for the bronze. Of the races statted out in Dragon, Warforged gets bronze, possibly even silver.

[Arros Winhadren]

Darn, sadly my DM ruled that Potions of Racial Transformation were not allowed. Seriously. I don't see why I should take an 18 in STR when my only purpose is to take damage so that other people don't. I'm not a Striker. I don't mind missing so long as the monsters concentrate on me, and if my DM determines that ranged is my weakness and focuses ranged attacks on me, then that's even better for my party.

[Hal]

Humans don't work out as well with increasing the HP you'll get from the invigorating powers, but if you're playing a tank then humans do have other benefits. In particular, humans have more ways of getting a bonus to saves than any other race, so you'll be able to stop any conditions or on-going damage more easily.

[SadisticFishing]

Missing IS a big deal. As a fighter, you almost definitely have the second highest DPS output in the group - and considering the fact that you don't have a +1 to hit from Weapon Talent, you're going to be lagging way behind.

Plus if you miss on your OAs and Combat Challenge hits, you're not even being sticky. You're just this guy that gives the group +2 to all defenses against a monster or two. Not a big deal.

On TOP of that, some of your attacks severely cripple the target. Even attacks as low level as Steel Serpent Strike or Villain's Menace are a big deal - once you get to Immobilizing, Dazing, and Stunning attacks, missing can cause you to lose a fight.

So, yeah, The best thing about being a Human is 18 strength, and the +1 to defenses. The bonus at will is pretty awesome too. But Dwarf would make Uncanny Dodge easier to pick up (and you do want Uncanny Dodge), give you Giant Fighting, minor action second wind, and that feat for half con to battlerage vigor, not to mention Dwarven Durability in Paragon...

Dwarf > Warforged > Dragonborn > Minotaur > Human > Half-Elf IMHO.

[Yakk]

Defender's job is to get monsters to attack them, and to make that choice by the monsters ... a very marginal one.

Fighters convince monsters to attack them through three means:
1> By marking targets, they penalize monsters who don't attack them,
2> Their ability to stop moving monsters with an attack that hits,
3> Their in-built threat -- ie, "ouch, that fighter hurts, let's kill him before he kills me".

Note that _all_ of the above methods are a function of your ability to hit a monster.

A fighter that is nearly impossible to kill, but cannot hit targets, is not effective. A fighter must balance their offense with their defense.

In your case, by using a 2 handed weapon, you are dumping your defense ability (no shield makes you suck defensively). Battlerager temporary HP boosts your defense. So these two choices work well together.

Getting 1 extra temporary HP per invigorating power, vs hitting about 10% more often for +1 damage per hit (50% chance to hit, vs 45% chance to hit, is 1.1x as many hits -- or a 10% increase), is the question of 16 str 18 con vs 18/16 str/con.

You also get an extra healing surge, more HP, and a half-point more healing surge value.

Keep that balance in mind. A smart DM should ignore a too-defensively built fighter.

[Asbestos]

Dwarf > Warforged > Dragonborn > Minotaur > Human > Half-Elf IMHO.

I think on this we will have to agree to disagree. I'd definitely put half-elf > human. You get an out of class at-will as an encounter, wolfpack tactics and the two str cleric at-wills are great for this. As well, you still have access to all the human feats. I'd say that at worst, half-elves and humans are equal here.

[KKL]

Darn, sadly my DM ruled that Potions of Racial Transformation were not allowed. Seriously. I don't see why I should take an 18 in STR when my only purpose is to take damage so that other people don't. I'm not a Striker. I don't mind missing so long as the monsters concentrate on me, and if my DM determines that ranged is my weakness and focuses ranged attacks on me, then that's even better for my party.

Think like a monster.

There's this guy in armor. He's really angry and has a big hammer.

Problem: It hurts and he can so much damage without actually looking hurt.

Thought Process: He misses and when he does hit, it's not quite as painful as that other guy with the smaller weapons. Maybe the big guy's overcompensating?

Logical Solution: Ignore angry man with hammer. Run after the other squishier ones. Chompy chompy.

[Arros Winhadren]

Alright, so far all the advice I've gotten is to either change my ability scores, my race, or both. This is why I love GitP. It's as if there's no such thing as roleplaying.

[KKL]

Alright, so far all the advice I've gotten is to either change my ability scores, my race, or both. This is why I love GitP. It's as if there's no such thing as roleplaying.

I don't understand. You're coming to us with mechanical problems and expect roleplaying help?

[Asbestos]

I don't understand. You're coming to us with mechanical problems and expect roleplaying help?

Maybe they're saying that they... like that all we're offering is mechanical help?

Hm... how would RP make a human more effective at tanking... maybe all the baddies have some sort of particular racism towards humans and want to attack them first?
:smalltongue:

[Izmir Stinger]

Keep that balance in mind. A smart DM should ignore a too-defensively built fighter.

Shouldn't the DM only do that when playing monsters that are smart enough to evaluate the tactical situation. I'm not a big fan of fighting a pack of direwolves that somehow instinctively know that they should focus on the wizard.

[KKL]

Shouldn't the DM only do that when playing monsters that are smart enough to evaluate the tactical situation. I'm not a big fan of fighting a pack of direwolves that somehow instinctively know that they should focus on the wizard.

Dire Wolves, or heck, normal Wovles aren't idiots. If they're going after something that hits back hard but never goes down, not even when they play the game of "Lets knock him down then do stuff to his throat!" They know that he's a lost cause.

So they spot something else and swarm it. Really, wolves are pretty knowledgeable.

[Yakk]

Dire Wolves should skirmish. They should attack opponents who are on "the edge" of the group, and cut them away. Targets that they cannot get a bite on (high AC, high HP) should be avoided.

Their goal should be to take out a single member of the enemy pack, then drag them off to eat, while not being that hurt themselves.

Remember: even unintelligent opponents know about marks. In the case of the fighter, it means that you cannot move away from the fighter or attack anyone else without leaving yourself open to the fighter.

[Izmir Stinger]

Remember: even unintelligent opponents know about marks. In the case of the fighter, it means that you cannot move away from the fighter or attack anyone else without leaving yourself open to the fighter.

Yeah, so what I'm saying is only intelligent creatures should be able to evaluate the tactical situation and decide if ignoring the mark for some strategic advantage is worth the risk. Unintelligent monsters should just attack the one marking them.

[Mando Knight]

Unintelligent monsters should just attack the one marking them.

No, like the wolf example, even an animal should be able to figure out that the guy who's too hard to hurt should just be avoided when there's a squishy guy who's hurting you a lot, especially when the tough guy isn't hurting you much at all.

[Yakk]

Yeah, so what I'm saying is only intelligent creatures should be able to evaluate the tactical situation and decide if ignoring the mark for some strategic advantage is worth the risk. Unintelligent monsters should just attack the one marking them.
Wolves are wise, if not intelligent. And they should be skilled hunters.

As pack skirmishers, they should seek to disengage and swarm a single target that looks weak and easy to take out. Engaging a tough and threatening seeming target is not what they want to do.

Sometimes they should engage the marker, sometimes they should ignore it. Their understanding of how much threat the marker does should come from experience, and grow as the marker attacks the wolf or other wolves nearby.

[Asbestos]

So, basically only some oozes, constructs, and undead should be stupid enough to not try and unstick themselves from the defender.

[Scorched Jawa]

If you're looking to use an axe still, look in the Adventurer's Vault for the Executioner's Axe. 1d12 with Brutal 2 and High Crit. Brutal allows the player to reroll any damage die that come up as the number or lower until the die is higher than said number. So, if you have an encounter power that does 3[W] and your rolls come up as 1,2,1, you'd be able to reroll each of the dice until they were each 3 or higher. The battlerager in our group loves it; seen some nasty numbers from him (dragonborn).