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Jan Mattys
2009-01-12, 06:05 AM
Ok, I'll just spit this out and see what happens:

Fact 1: the big bad guy of the story is an Epic sorcerer.
As far as we know, he's one of the very few Epic forces in the World. Other Epic powers include: Lirian (killed), Dorukan (killed), Kraagor (killed), Soon (dead), Girard (possibly alive, quite old anyway), Serini (possibly alive, quite old anyway).

Fact 2: it's extremely unlikely that the characters will get to face Xykon on equal terms. Xykon is intended to be the ultimate boss (excluding the Snarl, maybe) and the order is not likely to get to the same level as him.

Now,the question:
The Order is around lvl 14. Some might even be a little higher than this by now. Now, I am no D&D expert, but I think it can be assumed that a party of lvl 14 / 15 guys is pretty damn strong for all purposes. Right? If so, how many levels will the Order need to go up in order to be a force able to deal with Xykon? I'm asking from a purely D&D-esque point of view. The main villains can count on an Epic sorcerer, a 17/18th level Cleric, a 13/14 lvl sorcerer (?) (Tsukiko) and a bajillion minions.

Let's say just the named characters count: to take out the Xykon-Redcloak-Tsukiko lot, what's the expected level of a Bard/Rogue/Cleric/Ranger/Wizard/Warrior gang ?

Do they need to hit Epic to stand a chance? And if so, wouldn't it be a bit overkilling in terms of plot? I mean, "reaching Epic" has quite, you know... an "epic" ring in itself... which I don't think would be ok for our set of characters, who are supposed (as usual) to be the underdog against the baddies.

So what do you think?

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-12, 06:14 AM
I think WotC designed skills so that level 5 is equivalent to what the best people in real life can do, so the Order are really strong. Together, they may just about be able to beat him now. Also, Redcloak may only be level 15 or 16 (we know he has access to level 8 spells from the Extended Summon Monster 7 because it needs a level 8 spell slot).

Tsukiko is a Mystic Theurge, which progresses spellcasting from both an Arcane and Divine spellcasting class. Judging by her comments about turning Paladins in the 1st Edition and her ability to research new spells to deal with Haley, she appears to be a Cleric/Wizard. She may also have been as low as level 12 when she fought Haley due to only using up to level 5 spells: she needed 3 Cleric and Wizard levels to qualify for the Prestige Class, then she could get spells as if she was levelling in both classes).

I think the Order will be arounf level 19 or 20 by the time the comic ends due to their current growth rate.

factotum
2009-01-12, 07:32 AM
It's not that likely that they'll get Epic levels--they'd have to kill a LOT of reasonably-levelled enemies to do that, and it would slow the story down. Don't forget that story outweighs rules (as we saw in the very first battle with Xykon, where Roy defeated him by doing things that you simply can't do according to the D&D rules).

Nerdanel
2009-01-12, 07:45 AM
It's not that likely that they'll get Epic levels--they'd have to kill a LOT of reasonably-levelled enemies to do that, and it would slow the story down. Don't forget that story outweighs rules (as we saw in the very first battle with Xykon, where Roy defeated him by doing things that you simply can't do according to the D&D rules).

I think the OOTS world is using the optional instant kill rule where if you roll a natural 20 to hit, confirm the critical with another 20, and then confirm the instant kill with yet another 20, the target dies immediately, no matter what because it was just that good a hit.

Roy just got inordinately lucky and rolled a 1/8000 chance just when he needed it.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-12, 08:05 AM
I assumed that was done solely to set up for the "repair Roy's sword" sub-quest in addition to allowing the game to be destroyed after Xykon withdrew rather then being based on the rules.

Kish
2009-01-12, 08:15 AM
It's not that likely that they'll get Epic levels--they'd have to kill a LOT of reasonably-levelled enemies to do that, and it would slow the story down. Don't forget that story outweighs rules (as we saw in the very first battle with Xykon, where Roy defeated him by doing things that you simply can't do according to the D&D rules).
Rich said in the commentary on War and XPs that, having effectively given the victory to Roy in their first encounter, he felt obligated to play it straight when Roy went up against Xykon again--which meant there was no way Roy could not get smashed.

Roderick_BR
2009-01-12, 08:27 AM
It's not that likely that they'll get Epic levels--they'd have to kill a LOT of reasonably-levelled enemies to do that, and it would slow the story down. Don't forget that story outweighs rules (as we saw in the very first battle with Xykon, where Roy defeated him by doing things that you simply can't do according to the D&D rules).
He grappled Xyxon (that was too dumb to simply fight back), and threw him(1 square would be enough) on a "magic trap" that blows baddies up. All within rules, only plot-powered.
But then again, Rich ignores some D&D rules, like, if you are lifting someone over your head, you can throw him more than one panel, or when hitting someone VERY hard with a two-handed great sword, or some damage-dealing magic, this person can be knocked back, without need of a feat.

Jan Mattys
2009-01-12, 08:59 AM
What I was asking was just:

According to the supposed levels they are now, are the members of the Order as a group be able to take on the three main baddies n combat?
Or do they need to get Epic themselves in order to be able to defeat Xykon?

(of course I know the plot will provide twists and turns before it's all over and this question means nothing, but I wanted to have an idea... how strong must a group like the Order be in order to take on an Epic Level Sorcerer, a strong Evil Cleric and a Mystic Theurge?

Cizak
2009-01-12, 09:11 AM
The main villains can count on an Epic sorcerer, a 17/18th level Cleric, a 13/14 lvl sorcerer (?) (Tsukiko) and a bajillion minions.

Do not forget MiTD. A creature that was tickled by Mikos attacks, couldn't feel Belkar's attacks, did some wierd screaming effect on Haley and Belkar and can cause a earthquake by stomping the ground.

Optimystik
2009-01-12, 09:22 AM
I think the OOTS world is using the optional instant kill rule where if you roll a natural 20 to hit, confirm the critical with another 20, and then confirm the instant kill with yet another 20, the target dies immediately, no matter what because it was just that good a hit.

Roy just got inordinately lucky and rolled a 1/8000 chance just when he needed it.

Roy didn't destroy Xykon, Dorukan's Sigil did (which was epic-level magic, I might add.) Roy just made him come into contact with it.

Besides, Xykon is immune to critical hits anyway. The blast of energy was just very, very powerful.

tcrudisi
2009-01-12, 09:30 AM
If I was a player running one of the members of the OotS, I certainly would not want to try the battle right now. Could it be done? Sure, if they could find a way to isolate their baddies. They'd need to get MitD alone as well as Xykon alone. The other named bad-guys can be taken at once. That's not likely to happen, so they would probably need a few more levels. Consider Elan's flare, it would not surprise me if they were all (or at least Roy) level 20 and dinged 21 after defeating Xykon.

Zordrath
2009-01-12, 10:53 AM
Actually, I'm not sure whether I'd want the Order to go epic. I think it would take a lot of tension out of the strip if the main characters were literally the most powerful group of people in the world. As strong as Xykon is, he is only one person (though the MitD is probably epic-level as well, given how far superior it was to Miko).

We don't even know if the Order of the Scribble were all epic level while they were still adventuring together. All we know is that they were several decades later, and even then, only one of them yet was above Xykon in strength.

Kish
2009-01-12, 10:57 AM
We don't even know if the Order of the Scribble were all epic level while they were still adventuring together. All we know is that they were several decades later, and even then, only one of them yet was above Xykon in strength.
Which one are you thinking of? Soon? I would guess the Order of the Scribble were/are all the same level, and pretty close to Xykon's level, whether under or over (or exactly the same).
Lirian defeated him handily until he came back immune to everything she had prepared that day. Dorukan lost the duel, straight up, but not in a way that calls for Xykon to be higher level.

Myou
2009-01-12, 11:07 AM
He grappled Xyxon (that was too dumb to simply fight back), and threw him(1 square would be enough) on a "magic trap" that blows baddies up. All within rules, only plot-powered.
But then again, Rich ignores some D&D rules, like, if you are lifting someone over your head, you can throw him more than one panel, or when hitting someone VERY hard with a two-handed great sword, or some damage-dealing magic, this person can be knocked back, without need of a feat.

You can't grapple a lich though. At least as I understand it.

Rotipher
2009-01-12, 11:11 AM
You can grapple a lich, you just can't inflict nonlethal damage upon them that way. Roy is far too high-level to be impeded by Xykon's fear aura.

Zordrath
2009-01-12, 11:31 AM
Which one are you thinking of? Soon? I would guess the Order of the Scribble were/are all the same level, and pretty close to Xykon's level, whether under or over (or exactly the same).
Lirian defeated him handily until he came back immune to everything she had prepared that day. Dorukan lost the duel, straight up, but not in a way that calls for Xykon to be higher level.

Lirian only won due to the Virus, which doesn't necessarily imply anything about her level. You don't need to have fighting prowess to know the ways of nature.
Similiarly, Soon also defeated Xykon in a rather unfair fight. He had the aid of several dozen minions, and was in a homebrewed state making him immune to many of Xykon's spells. This makes him more powerful than Xykon, but not strictly in the 'higher level' sort of way, just the 'different' sort.

(Plus, he never actually destroyed Xykon. He attacked Redcloak, making use of the strain this put on Xykon)

factotum
2009-01-12, 12:05 PM
What I was asking was just:

According to the supposed levels they are now, are the members of the Order as a group be able to take on the three main baddies n combat?
Or do they need to get Epic themselves in order to be able to defeat Xykon?


If we just go by D&D rules, then no, the Order at its current level wouldn't even really have much of a chance against Xykon alone--as a minimum 21st level Lich he has a CR of 23 or more. That means he's supposed to be a moderate challenge for a party consisting of level 23 characters! Level 13? He wipes the floor with them every time unless they somehow roll nothing but 20s and he only ever rolls 1s.

Jan Mattys
2009-01-12, 12:36 PM
If we just go by D&D rules, then no, the Order at its current level wouldn't even really have much of a chance against Xykon alone--as a minimum 21st level Lich he has a CR of 23 or more. That means he's supposed to be a moderate challenge for a party consisting of level 23 characters! Level 13? He wipes the floor with them every time unless they somehow roll nothing but 20s and he only ever rolls 1s.

Ok, next question: How is a lvl 21 character a moderate challenge for a lvl 23 PARTY???

Zordrath
2009-01-12, 12:39 PM
I'm no DnD expert, but my guess is that a lvl 21 lich or dragon is far more powerful than a lvl 21 fighter.

Still, I think six characters above his own level would be far too much for Xykon to handle. Otherwise, he wouldn't have had that much problems against Soon alone.

Samurai Jill
2009-01-12, 01:01 PM
Will the Order go Epic?
They are scheduled to by about strip 1000, which is also more or less when the strip is scheduled to wind up, so I would say yes.

Rakim Avishot
2009-01-12, 03:30 PM
Lirian only won due to the Virus, which doesn't necessarily imply anything about her level. You don't need to have fighting prowess to know the ways of nature.
Similiarly, Soon also defeated Xykon in a rather unfair fight. He had the aid of several dozen minions, and was in a homebrewed state making him immune to many of Xykon's spells. This makes him more powerful than Xykon, but not strictly in the 'higher level' sort of way, just the 'different' sort.

(Plus, he never actually destroyed Xykon. He attacked Redcloak, making use of the strain this put on Xykon)

Actually, Redcloak managed to "turn" all the "ghosts" before they did much damage to Xykon. The only one who did anything substantial was Soon himself. Also, he did damage Xykon a lot, which is why killing Redcloak would have been very bad for Xykon. He also would have killed them both by himself if Miko hadn't shown up.:smallmad:

P.S.- This is my very first post.:smallbiggrin: Please excuse my lack of experience, I only recently started AD&D, and my Dad only owns the books up to 2nd edition, so that's all I know regarding rules besides for what I've gleaned from other places. (such as Oots)

David Argall
2009-01-12, 04:08 PM
By the rules [which can be treated rather casually at times around here], if we consider Xykon and friends a CR24 challenge, the party should be about level 20 before they take it on, and even then should be looking for ways to avoid the fight. However, this same standard applies to a CR5 monster and level 1 PCs. So the party can push it a bit.
Still, the party needs to gain a few levels before they take on Xykon. But they have plenty of time to do so. Also recall story needs, which says Xykon has to be the favorite in the final fight. So the party is under no desperate need to gain levels. Given the fact we don't get to see the character sheets, which are subject to change at plot convenience anyway, we can expect the party to be at the proper level at the proper time.

Zevox
2009-01-12, 04:49 PM
Now,the question:
The Order is around lvl 14. Some might even be a little higher than this by now. Now, I am no D&D expert, but I think it can be assumed that a party of lvl 14 / 15 guys is pretty damn strong for all purposes. Right? If so, how many levels will the Order need to go up in order to be a force able to deal with Xykon? I'm asking from a purely D&D-esque point of view. The main villains can count on an Epic sorcerer, a 17/18th level Cleric, a 13/14 lvl sorcerer (?) (Tsukiko) and a bajillion minions.
Some minor corrections:

The Order is actually around level 13 right now, possibly with some up to 14. See the Class Levels and Geekery thread.

Someone pegged Xykon's level at 22-23 due to Durkon's ability to dispel something of his earlier, so he's not too far into the epic levels yet. Redcloak's level is uncertain, but may be as low as 15. We've never seen him cast a 9th level spell, so we can't say for sure he's 17+, but we do know he's at least 15 due to his Blade Barrier doing 15d6 damage (its maximum) by his own statement to Tsukiko. Tsukiko herself is a Mystic Theurge, likely Wizard/Cleric in origin, level 12+ (highest level spell she has been seen casting is 5th).


Let's say just the named characters count: to take out the Xykon-Redcloak-Tsukiko lot, what's the expected level of a Bard/Rogue/Cleric/Ranger/Wizard/Warrior gang ?
To have a prayer against Xykon, they need to hit level 17-18 minimum. The closer they get to epic, the better. For a reasonable shot, I'd say 19-20 would be adivesable. If they have to take on Redcloak at the same time, higher is better. Tsukiko is a negligible threat by the time they can take on Xykon unless she levels up significantly.

We also have a fourth Team Evil factor you've forgotten, though. The Monster in the Darkness. Since we have no idea what he is, he's a total unknown we can't really account for. Given Miko, who was almost surely higher level than the Order, was so utterly ineffective vs him though, I'd say they'll need to get to close to epic, if not into epic, to take on him. Although I suppose, given his personality, there's the off chance that they'll never actually have to fight him.

So basically, epic is not required, but it is possible. By strict D&D it would be fairly advisable, really, but we all know that in the OotS plot trumps rules, big time.


I think the OOTS world is using the optional instant kill rule where if you roll a natural 20 to hit, confirm the critical with another 20, and then confirm the instant kill with yet another 20, the target dies immediately, no matter what because it was just that good a hit.

Roy just got inordinately lucky and rolled a 1/8000 chance just when he needed it.
Doesn't work. Roy's "hit" only knocked Xykon's head off. It was picking him up and tossing him into the Gate, which would be a grapple manuever in D&D, that destroyed him. And besides, Xykon's undead, he can't be affected by critical hits, certainly not from an unarmed foe like Roy was.


Lirian defeated him handily until he came back immune to everything she had prepared that day. Dorukan lost the duel, straight up, but not in a way that calls for Xykon to be higher level.
Lirian didn't defeat Xykon before his Lichification - her glade's anti-magic disease did. Before that kicked in, they only had time to exchange a couple of blows, during which Xykon had the upper hand, if only minorly, since Lirian's one shot missed him, while his didn't.

You are correct though that none of his victories over the Order of the Scribble occurred in ways that require him to be above their level.


You can't grapple a lich though. At least as I understand it.
Of course you can. What would prevent it? The only things you're not allowed to grapple (by the core rules, anyway) are those too many size categories different from you and those under the effect of a Freedom of Movement spell.

Zevox

Finwe
2009-01-12, 08:11 PM
I'm no DnD expert, but my guess is that a lvl 21 lich or dragon is far more powerful than a lvl 21 fighter.

Still, I think six characters above his own level would be far too much for Xykon to handle. Otherwise, he wouldn't have had that much problems against Soon alone.

On the other hand, the party's level 23 wizard and cleric will both be significantly more powerful than a level 21 lich.

Assassin89
2009-01-12, 08:21 PM
On the other hand, the party's level 23 wizard and cleric will both be significantly more powerful than a level 21 lich.

How do we know that the lich won't level up as the group also levels up albeit slower?

We can assume that before Elan goes epic, he might be 10 bard/10 dashing swordsman because prestige classes do not become epic until a character reaches 21st level.

GSFB
2009-01-12, 08:24 PM
Yes, the party WILL go "epic."

At some point, :vaarsuvius: will achieve "ultimate arcane power."

That sound like "epic level spell caster" to me.

The Extinguisher
2009-01-12, 09:39 PM
Lirian only won due to the Virus, which doesn't necessarily imply anything about her level. You don't need to have fighting prowess to know the ways of nature.


I'd imagine you'd have to be a pretty powerful druid to make something like that. Also, wasn't the epic level hippy joke in there as well?

Kaytara
2009-01-12, 10:01 PM
Lirian wildshaped into a dragon. I thought you needed to be Epic-level to do something like that? Though I might be mistaken...

And I agree with Flame Master Axel. Any virus that can render a high-level spellcaster completely and permanently unable to cast spells for the rest of his life sounds like it needs an Epic feat or two to get brewed.

Liwen
2009-01-12, 10:02 PM
SoD
Lirian was an epic character when she faced Xykon. Druids cannot shape change into silver dragons before reaching at least level 21.

Ninja'ed!

Finwe
2009-01-12, 10:12 PM
How do we know that the lich won't level up as the group also levels up albeit slower?

We can assume that before Elan goes epic, he might be 10 bard/10 dashing swordsman because prestige classes do not become epic until a character reaches 21st level.

Uh, I was referring to the question about whether a level 21 lich was really a CR 23 encounter. I wasn't making any predictions about the final showdown (TM).

Rotipher
2009-01-12, 10:27 PM
Yes, the party WILL go "epic."

At some point, :vaarsuvius: will achieve "ultimate arcane power."

That sound like "epic level spell caster" to me.


Unless "ultimate arcane power" translates as "the realization that magic can't solve everything", or some comparable moral lesson. The Oracle clearly gets a kick out of rubbing peoples' noses in their mistakes and/or mis-readings of his prophecies, so having UAP turn out to be other than what V expects it is would be right up that scaly little smart-arse's alley.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-13, 02:52 AM
It's not that likely that they'll get Epic levels--they'd have to kill a LOT of reasonably-levelled enemies to do that, and it would slow the story down. Don't forget that story outweighs rules (as we saw in the very first battle with Xykon, where Roy defeated him by doing things that you simply can't do according to the D&D rules).

Yes but we know from the comments that were made on the boat that they had been having fights off screen and the same probably applies to Haley and company while Elan's group was being focused on.


If we just go by D&D rules, then no, the Order at its current level wouldn't even really have much of a chance against Xykon alone--as a minimum 21st level Lich he has a CR of 23 or more. That means he's supposed to be a moderate challenge for a party consisting of level 23 characters! Level 13? He wipes the floor with them every time unless they somehow roll nothing but 20s and he only ever rolls 1s.

Rich has stated quite often that Xykon is a lazy bugger which is why he got his ass kicked by the party the first time and why he didn't immediately turn Roy or indeed the entire OotS into paste during the battle for Azure city.

All of that said I don't expect him to be a pushover in the final fight.

I also don't expect all of his minions to LIVE to see the final fight either. Tsukiko is to stupid and trigger happy to live past her next encounter with the party and TMITD will probably be a mini-boss before the main fight. Besides he's one plate of cookies away from being taken out of the fight anyways.

At the moment I'm sort of leaning towards story elements taking Red Cloak out of the picture. He's basically already achieved his goal of establishing a Goblin nation in the remains of Azure city and if it's shown that his plans for the gates won't work and/or are impractical then he'd turn on Xykon so fast his resignation letter would violate the laws of physics. That basically leaves a very pissed off (read a very easy to tweak and manipulate into stupid tactical decisions) Xykon alone for the final battle and when you get right down to it, an Epic Level Sorcerer that doesn't have any big damage Epic Level Spells isn't that much worse than a 20th level sorcerer with nice gear since your spell slots cap out at 20th level (or maybe 21st) and spell slots from stats start getting harder and harder to get.

Rotipher
2009-01-13, 10:28 AM
At the moment I'm sort of leaning towards story elements taking Red Cloak out of the picture. He's basically already achieved his goal of establishing a Goblin nation in the remains of Azure city and if it's shown that his plans for the gates won't work and/or are impractical then he'd turn on Xykon so fast his resignation letter would violate the laws of physics.


That would be true, if only his practical motives for helping Xykon are taken into consideration. But SoD makes it clear that Redcloak's continued service to the Plan is the only way he can live with himself, because if he gives up on his cause, he'll have done something unforgivable -- i.e. killed his own little brother, One-Eye -- for nothing.

hamishspence
2009-01-13, 10:38 AM
Xykon coming between him and The Plan, or sabotaging it in some way, is a more likely catalyst for major conflict.

how that would happen is a trickier question.

(and it also depends on how chesed out you allow Epic to get. its not damage, but game-breaking effects and combinations, that get Epic magic its poor reputation)

Given Xykon's fairly low int, he won't have as much Spellcraft to work with as a wizard would.

Aristeidis
2009-01-13, 08:41 PM
Firstly, to answer the original poster's question, this is a s t o r y which means victories and defeats mostly don't happen by pure dnd math and chances. Oots has too much plot and most certainly the final battle would be plotwise and not treated like a random encounter where only character level matters.They could find a weakness of team evil or anything like that.

Secondly, the circumstances play the biggest role so it's not easy to say who will win in a fight oots or xykon and team evil. An exaggerated example clarifies this: if for some reason xykon has expended all his spells per day the oots would definitely win even though they might be far lower level.

And
thirdly, the first epic level is not something you attain like from 19 to 20.
The epic rules state that only an extraordinary happening can make that true and this is why most characters never reach epic. That could be the favor of a god or something like that.

GSFB
2009-01-13, 09:06 PM
I don't think the Oracle's words to V should be construed in any way other than "actual ultimate arcane power." The Oracle's jollies will come not from the power turning out to be something else, but rather from what the "four words" part will end up meaning.

Compare to Belkar and the killing of Miko, etc. All the people Belkar named did, in fact, die. The joke wasn't their not really dying, but how they died and what the consequences of their deaths (especially the Oracle's) were.

Thus, V will achieve epic spells.

Thus, the party will go epic.

But the oracle will have his joke because when V does say the right four words to the right being for all the wrong reasons, it will be really funny and will probably result in that ultimate arcane power being used in a way that results in tragedy... such as Belkar's death...

Finwe
2009-01-13, 09:55 PM
I don't think the Oracle's words to V should be construed in any way other than "actual ultimate arcane power." The Oracle's jollies will come not from the power turning out to be something else, but rather from what the "four words" part will end up meaning.

Compare to Belkar and the killing of Miko, etc. All the people Belkar named did, in fact, die. The joke wasn't their not really dying, but how they died and what the consequences of their deaths (especially the Oracle's) were.

Thus, V will achieve epic spells.

Thus, the party will go epic.

But the oracle will have his joke because when V does say the right four words to the right being for all the wrong reasons, it will be really funny and will probably result in that ultimate arcane power being used in a way that results in tragedy... such as Belkar's death...

"Ultimate Arcane Power" doesn't necessarily mean epic spells, or even any kind of spells, for that matter. V might gain the ability to manifest any effect that could be caused by arcane means, at will.

kenb215
2009-01-13, 09:57 PM
I don't actually play D&D, but I'll give it my best try.

According to the SRD, a lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) is treated as if the character is two levels higher than it is because of all of the extra powers it has. That gives Xykon a challenge rating of at least 23, if he is level 21. The minimum level for Redcloak is 15 and Tsukiko is 12, according to the Class and level Geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95005). They are both normal, so their challenge rating is the same.

That thread also gives levels for the Order of the Stick. Plugging the values into this calculator (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm) gives a difficulty of "Unbeatable". Redcloak and Tsukiko are too far below Xykon to have much of an effect. Bumping all of the Order to level 15 makes facing just Xykon overpowering. Level 18 makes him very difficult. So they can't beat him now, but after about 3 to 5 more levels they could, but it would be a significant challenge. It might be feasible for them to win by the end of the story.

GSFB
2009-01-13, 10:51 PM
"Ultimate Arcane Power" doesn't necessarily mean epic spells, or even any kind of spells, for that matter. V might gain the ability to manifest any effect that could be caused by arcane means, at will.

Ummm... are suggesting be able to effectively cast any arcane spell, as a spell-like ability, at will?

That would essentially be equivalent to becoming a greater deity, such as Mystra.

I believe that would count as "epic."

ericgrau
2009-01-13, 11:44 PM
According to this encounter calculator (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm), Xykon has to be at least CR 24 for the encounter to be unbeatable by 6 level 15 characters. CR 25 w/o Redcloak and Tsukitikatiko (ya I gave up on sp.) to help. Being a lich adds 2 to his CR, which means he needs a minimum level of 22 to be "unbeatable". 21 makes the fight possible right now. So it's technically possible that Xykon is an epic caster and that the OotS can go against him right now. Unlikely, but possible. Point is they don't need to get all the way up to epic levels for the final fight. They'll probably gain at least a couple levels or more, maybe say get to level 20 to finish off the campaign nicely. But there's no need at all to go epic when there's 6 of them.

As for will they go epic, hmm. The last group of adventurers did, and they merely sealed evil in a can (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SealedEvilInACan) (my first trope, noooo!), while the OotS is might actually remove it for good so we can get a good resolution. Remember when Shojo said (paraphrased) "The snarl was born from the god's strife. It's been theorized that the Snarl would be more effective against a god than a non-diety of equal level."? That may be foreshadowing. But I think the Snarl's chaotic nature makes it hard to give him enough character to be a good "true final boss" while leaving Xykon as the fake. So I dunno.

Finwe
2009-01-14, 12:20 AM
Ummm... are suggesting be able to effectively cast any arcane spell, as a spell-like ability, at will?

That would essentially be equivalent to becoming a greater deity, such as Mystra.

I believe that would count as "epic."

Let me rephrase that.

V will gain Ultimate Arcane power. It doesn't necessarily come in the form of Epic spells, so he doesn't necessarily have be level 21+. I guess it's just arguing semantics, though.

More importantly, when V obtains UAP, the rest of the party isn't likely to be getting an equivalent power boost. So even though we can be pretty certain one member of the order will obtain powers that can be classified as "Epic," it doesn't mean the order will become an epic-level group.

factotum
2009-01-14, 03:10 AM
On the other hand, the party's level 23 wizard and cleric will both be significantly more powerful than a level 21 lich.

I'm not convinced of that. A Lich has a whole raft of immunities that make many of the wizard's spells useless, and they get a +4 bonus to their turn resistance which means the cleric is having to turn a creature that is effectively level 25--it wouldn't be as much of a one-sided battle as you think.

Finwe
2009-01-14, 03:24 AM
I'm not convinced of that. A Lich has a whole raft of immunities that make many of the wizard's spells useless, and they get a +4 bonus to their turn resistance which means the cleric is having to turn a creature that is effectively level 25--it wouldn't be as much of a one-sided battle as you think.

Two higher level epic spellcasters VS 1? In addition to two more epic characters? Most epic characters have at least a subset of the lich's immunities, too, so even that's not much of a help. Maybe the lich will get a few good shots off before he goes down, but he's really got no chance at all.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-14, 04:15 AM
If one is able to sufficiently set up the encounter then CR goes right out the window since you can use what abilities you have (and this is especially true once your around 15-20th level since you have so many abilities to use) to a level of effectiveness far above what is normally feasible or even plausible. Just for example:

Gate going to the plane of Air (it's empty) --- relatively short space containing Xykon --- gate FROM the plane of Air that happens to be right next to the gate going to the said plane.

You then fire a Lightning Bolt through the gate (since gates are clearly stated to have a back and a front and objects can pass through the back) and it then loops probably half a dozen times before ending. You just did 90d6 damage.

Yes I know this is questionable by RAW at best but it's still pretty damn cool and a good example of what can happen if you can set up the situation to your liking.

magic9mushroom
2009-01-14, 04:40 AM
My own theory, based on Xykon's Moderately-Escapable Forcecage, is that Xykon is around 36th level. That means he's going to be seriously hard to kill even by a party of near-epic characters.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-14, 04:41 AM
My own theory, based on Xykon's Moderately-Escapable Forcecage, is that Xykon is around 36th level. That means he's going to be seriously hard to kill even by a party of near-epic characters.

Since I suspect you're going off of the duration here I wish to point out that it's a made up spell and doesn't have to have a duration in days/level. Besides he was lying about expecting her to be there when he got back anyways so why wouldn't he lie about the duration?

magic9mushroom
2009-01-14, 04:55 AM
Sure, it's a made-up spell, but it would make sense that it would scale with level. And Xykon's Chaotic.

1 hour/level is a fairly common duration for spells, after all, and it's not an epic spell.

Finwe
2009-01-14, 07:37 AM
Sure, it's a made-up spell, but it would make sense that it would scale with level. And Xykon's Chaotic.

1 hour/level is a fairly common duration for spells, after all, and it's not an epic spell.

It could easily be 90 minutes/level, which would put him at a "mere" level 24, or a flat duration of 36 hours regardless of level, which could put him at anywhere.

factotum
2009-01-14, 07:48 AM
Actually, the *standard* Forcecage spell has a duration of 2 hours per level. At level 21 it would last 42 hours, which perfectly fits Xykon's description of "a day and a half, give or take a few hours".

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-14, 12:04 PM
Besides using Xykon's level as an indication of how high a level the party needs to be to beat him is silly. There are a dozen and a half ways to make a caster easier to beat. The most obvious in this case is to engage him after he's depleted at least some of his spells for the day and the party is fully rested. Plus with how well they know Xykon they can prepare for just about anything he can dish out ahead of time which also cuts down on his effectiveness.

Lets also not forget how inherently lazy he is. He's more than likely to start off with regular Fireballs than he is Meteor Swarms.

And the last point is simply Xykon's attention span and it's implications. AKA: His Concentration skill is probably lower than those demonic Roaches which means that they should be able to screw him up pretty bad just by surrounding him and taking an Attack of Opportunity each every round. He'd still get spells off but less frequently which would make him SOOOO much easier to deal with.

magic9mushroom
2009-01-16, 06:09 AM
Actually, the *standard* Forcecage spell has a duration of 2 hours per level. At level 21 it would last 42 hours, which perfectly fits Xykon's description of "a day and a half, give or take a few hours".

Nope. 42 hours is just as close to two days as it is to a day and a half. If it's 2 hours, he couldn't be epic, if it's 90 minutes, he's around 24, and if it's 1 hour, he's around 36.

And although levels become less useful after 20th, 36d12 is a LOT of HP for Xykon. And remember that we haven't actually seen any of his epic spells besides Cloister, but we know that he has the ability. Also, he's been spending 8 hours a day crafting magic items for 3 months+, that's a lot of hurt.

Hence I think there's going to be something either weakening Xykon immensely or strengthening the OotS immensely to allow one of them to kill him. Highly likely that Vaarsuvius's Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power might have something to do with that.

Lokasenna
2009-01-16, 06:37 AM
Nope. 42 hours is just as close to two days as it is to a day and a half. If it's 2 hours, he couldn't be epic, if it's 90 minutes, he's around 24, and if it's 1 hour, he's around 36.

And although levels become less useful after 20th, 36d12 is a LOT of HP for Xykon. And remember that we haven't actually seen any of his epic spells besides Cloister, but we know that he has the ability. Also, he's been spending 8 hours a day crafting magic items for 3 months+, that's a lot of hurt.

Hence I think there's going to be something either weakening Xykon immensely or strengthening the OotS immensely to allow one of them to kill him. Highly likely that Vaarsuvius's Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power might have something to do with that.

Why are you arguing this?
Xykon figures he's 7-8 levels above Roy, and does anyone think he's lying about that? If he was level 36, Roy would already be epic.

36 hours means 1.5 days, which does mean 1.5 hours, give or take a couple. He isn't really the type to be perfectly spot on about calculations, so he gives a reasonable estimate, which happens to be correct.

And how would one get to level 36? Once you hit epic, it's harder to get levels, and he hasn't been undead for centuries. We haven't heard of him killing any gods, and if he was level 36, he wouldn't need the Snarl to rule the world.

lord_khaine
2009-01-16, 06:45 AM
Gate going to the plane of Air (it's empty) --- relatively short space containing Xykon --- gate FROM the plane of Air that happens to be right next to the gate going to the said plane.

You then fire a Lightning Bolt through the gate (since gates are clearly stated to have a back and a front and objects can pass through the back) and it then loops probably half a dozen times before ending. You just did 90d6 damage.

there are 2 funny things here, the biggest of them is that a lich is immune to electricity.
the second is that its not possible to do what you want with a lightning bolt, because its travel time is instantaneous.


Why are you arguing this?
Xykon figures he's 7-8 levels above Roy, and does anyone think he's lying about that? If he was level 36, Roy would already be epic.

agree, so far the best estimates place Xykon at the 21-22 range.

factotum
2009-01-16, 07:51 AM
Nope. 42 hours is just as close to two days as it is to a day and a half. If it's 2 hours, he couldn't be epic, if it's 90 minutes, he's around 24, and if it's 1 hour, he's around 36.


He said, "A day and a half, give or take a few hours." You know what that means, right? It doesn't mean "exactly 36 hours". It means "36 hours plus or minus some random amount of hours I can't be bothered to work out". If the estimated duration of Forcecage at level 21 was CLOSER to 2 days than a day and a half I'd grant your point, but it isn't; therefore saying it lasts "a day and a half" (bearing in mind the cage had already been in place for at least a few minutes at that point) fits perfectly with Xykon being level 21.

The fact is, there are many separate pieces of evidence in the strip to suggest Xykon is around level 21. There is no evidence whatsoever that he's level 36 apart from your very creative interpretation of a single spell duration.

Optimystik
2009-01-16, 08:15 AM
there are 2 funny things here, the biggest of them is that a lich is immune to electricity.
the second is that its not possible to do what you want with a lightning bolt, because its travel time is instantaneous.

Ouch! You'd think an Epic Wizard would have done the research. :smallwink:


Besides using Xykon's level as an indication of how high a level the party needs to be to beat him is silly. There are a dozen and a half ways to make a caster easier to beat. The most obvious in this case is to engage him after he's depleted at least some of his spells for the day and the party is fully rested. Plus with how well they know Xykon they can prepare for just about anything he can dish out ahead of time which also cuts down on his effectiveness.

Using his level as an indication of how hard the fight will be is silly? That's the whole point of the system!

Preparing for a Xykon fight isn't hard - he has a love affair with evocations - but as he says in SoD, "there's a level of force against which tactics are meaningless." (Or words to that effect.)


Lets also not forget how inherently lazy he is. He's more than likely to start off with regular Fireballs than he is Meteor Swarms.

Quite the opposite, actually. Being lazy means you're more likely to start off with the big spells to end things faster. Notice how he uses his magic versus the Ghost-Martyr Sapphire Guard - starting high, and then going to lower spells as the fight drags on. ("I'm running out of spells above 5th level!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html))


And the last point is simply Xykon's attention span and it's implications. AKA: His Concentration skill is probably lower than those demonic Roaches which means that they should be able to screw him up pretty bad just by surrounding him and taking an Attack of Opportunity each every round. He'd still get spells off but less frequently which would make him SOOOO much easier to deal with.

Being undead, he uses Charisma, not Constitution, for Concentration checks. Even assuming his concentration is untrained, he can likely cast defensively without trouble due to his high modifier, if he remembers to that is.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-16, 05:17 PM
there are 2 funny things here, the biggest of them is that a lich is immune to electricity.
the second is that its not possible to do what you want with a lightning bolt, because its travel time is instantaneous.

Yes, yes he's immune to electricity. There are also a dozen ways to get around this (and that's just using the Lightning Bolt spell). I still don't see why you can't do it though. Since you would have to put the gate loop up ahead of time anyways and then it just loops over the same area of space 4+ times.

My point wasn't even that "this is how they could kill Xykon" my point was more "this is how superior planning, trickery, and being prepared for you opponent can give you a major advantage even if that opponent is several levels higher than you.


Ouch! You'd think an Epic Wizard would have done the research. :smallwink:

Hush you >.>


Using his level as an indication of how hard the fight will be is silly? That's the whole point of the system!

Preparing for a Xykon fight isn't hard - he has a love affair with evocations - but as he says in SoD, "there's a level of force against which tactics are meaningless." (Or words to that effect.)

Yes infact it is. CR has to take into account other things when it's calculated. Just look at the culmination of The Age of Worms or Savage Tide (adventure paths from Dragon Magazine). In both of these there was a long and complicated run of things the PC's had to do in order to weaken the enemy down to their CR and I can definitely see something similar happening with Xykon.


Quite the opposite, actually. Being lazy means you're more likely to start off with the big spells to end things faster. Notice how he uses his magic versus the Ghost-Martyr Sapphire Guard - starting high, and then going to lower spells as the fight drags on. ("I'm running out of spells above 5th level!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html))

Rich specifically stated that Xykon only expends the minimum amount of effort needed to deal with a situation. In the case of Roy on the Dragon he started off by trying to talk him down (why get his hands dirty) and he did the same thing the first time in the Throne Room (remember he was only spraying Magic Missiles and basically allowed Roy to grab him). While I don't hold any delusions about Xykon's spell choices when he's actually in danger of his life (like in the final battle) I do think that his propensity for laziness is his greatest weakness (that and his Int of like 12) and that it will be his undoing.


Being undead, he uses Charisma, not Constitution, for Concentration checks. Even assuming his concentration is untrained, he can likely cast defensively without trouble due to his high modifier, if he remembers to that is.

My point was mostly that Xykon is unable to concentrate on anything for more than about 5 minutes and so probably has next to no ranks in Concentration. Even if he has a +12 Charisma bonus he will have a hard time against Roy's Attacks of Opportunity. Basically if the Order can get him by himself and V stops him from flying away then he will just get shredded a little bit at a time.

hamishspence
2009-01-16, 05:22 PM
Concentration skill is not necessarily connected to sticking to an interest- its main purpose is- Can you maintain a spell when enemies are whacking you?

If Xykon's spellcasting is seen to fizzle every time someone hits him, thats evidence of a poor Concentration Skill.

Kish
2009-01-16, 05:49 PM
Concentration skill is not necessarily connected to sticking to an interest- its main purpose is- Can you maintain a spell when enemies are whacking you?

If Xykon's spellcasting is seen to fizzle every time someone hits him, thats evidence of a poor Concentration Skill.
Yet skill ranks are not independent of shown personality traits in OotS (as they certainly shouldn't be in D&D). Xykon manifestly has very little ability to concentrate.

On the other hand, in his throne room Xykon didn't bring out the big guns against Roy for maximum drama when he unveiled the creature in the dark, not for minimum effort. He doesn't expend the minimum amount of effort when expending more effort is more fun for him.

Gametime
2009-01-16, 05:54 PM
I'm going with the people who think the Order will end up on the low side of Epic. Just enough to really be world-savers, not quite enough to be effectively unstoppable.

I also think, however, that the final confrontation will involve last-minute contrivances on both sides. E.g., the Order will finally be powerful enough to normally defeat Xykon, except uh-oh! Xykon's somehow used the power of the Snarl to become even STRONGER, rendering him normally unbeatable, but now wait! V's got some REAL ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER to dish out! and so on.

Call me crazy, but I can't imagine the big showdown being a normal fight. I think it's going to be riddled with plot twists and lucky shots. It is, after all, the climax.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Order is somehow taken out of commission by the end of things, though. Maybe not dead, but badly wounded. I don't think this Order is intended to end up like the last one, split up but still very powerful. I think this adventure is going to be the last one for most of them.

Fredthefighter
2009-01-16, 05:56 PM
I'm going with the people who think the Order will end up on the low side of Epic. Just enough to really be world-savers, not quite enough to be effectively unstoppable.

I also think, however, that the final confrontation will involve last-minute contrivances on both sides. E.g., the Order will finally be powerful enough to normally defeat Xykon, except uh-oh! Xykon's somehow used the power of the Snarl to become even STRONGER, rendering him normally unbeatable, but now wait! V's got some REAL ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER to dish out! and so on.

Call me crazy, but I can't imagine the big showdown being a normal fight. I think it's going to be riddled with plot twists and lucky shots. It is, after all, the climax.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Order is somehow taken out of commission by the end of things, though. Maybe not dead, but badly wounded. I don't think this Order is intended to end up like the last one, split up but still very powerful. I think this adventure is going to be the last one for most of them.

I agree with you there, the last battle is always riddled with plot-twists no matter who has written/drawn it.

Optimystik
2009-01-16, 06:30 PM
Concentration skill is not necessarily connected to sticking to an interest- its main purpose is- Can you maintain a spell when enemies are whacking you?

If Xykon's spellcasting is seen to fizzle every time someone hits him, thats evidence of a poor Concentration Skill.

He fizzled Meteor Swarm, a 9th level spell. The Concentration DC was 19 + O-Chul's smite evil damage, which was likely to be huge. If you'll notice, his other spells (like the lightning bolt in #459 when he was taking damage on all sides, and the unnamed fire spell) didn't fizzle, so chances are he just got unlucky on the Swarm.


Yes infact it is. CR has to take into account other things when it's calculated. Just look at the culmination of The Age of Worms or Savage Tide (adventure paths from Dragon Magazine). In both of these there was a long and complicated run of things the PC's had to do in order to weaken the enemy down to their CR and I can definitely see something similar happening with Xykon.

You're correct, CR takes many things into account; the first of those things however is the opponent's level.


Rich specifically stated that Xykon only expends the minimum amount of effort needed to deal with a situation. In the case of Roy on the Dragon he started off by trying to talk him down (why get his hands dirty) and he did the same thing the first time in the Throne Room (remember he was only spraying Magic Missiles and basically allowed Roy to grab him). While I don't hold any delusions about Xykon's spell choices when he's actually in danger of his life (like in the final battle) I do think that his propensity for laziness is his greatest weakness (that and his Int of like 12) and that it will be his undoing.

It seems that I define "minimum effort" differently than you do. Roy and the Dragon is a perfect example - he didn't have to use Meteor Swarm, a 9th-level evocation to send our hero plummeting to earth. Xykon is the kind of guy that would swat a fly with a bazooka; it might be overkill but it saves him having to worry about the fly later, which means he doesn't have to pay attention to it thereafter.


My point was mostly that Xykon is unable to concentrate on anything for more than about 5 minutes and so probably has next to no ranks in Concentration. Even if he has a +12 Charisma bonus he will have a hard time against Roy's Attacks of Opportunity. Basically if the Order can get him by himself and V stops him from flying away then he will just get shredded a little bit at a time.

With a +12 bonus and zero ranks in Concentration, to fizzle a 9th level spell while casting defensively he would have to roll less than 13 (60% chance of failure). Every point he DOES have in concentration reduces that number by one, improving his chances by 5%. That's also before buffs like Eagle's Splendor.

Finwe
2009-01-16, 08:38 PM
He fizzled Meteor Swarm, a 9th level spell. The Concentration DC was 19 + O-Chul's smite evil damage, which was likely to be huge. If you'll notice, his other spells (like the lightning bolt in #459 when he was taking damage on all sides, and the unnamed fire spell) didn't fizzle, so chances are he just got unlucky on the Swarm.

Given Xykon's DR and that O-Chul's dump stat is charisma, the DC probably wasn't much higher than the mid-high 20's.



It seems that I define "minimum effort" differently than you do. Roy and the Dragon is a perfect example - he didn't have to use Meteor Swarm, a 9th-level evocation to send our hero plummeting to earth. Xykon is the kind of guy that would swat a fly with a bazooka; it might be overkill but it saves him having to worry about the fly later, which means he doesn't have to pay attention to it thereafter.

While Xykon definitely is the type to swat a fly with a bazooka, I'd say he's more likely to use the bazooka because it's more entertaining, not because he's worried about the fly surviving.

magic9mushroom
2009-01-18, 03:25 AM
Given Xykon's DR and that O-Chul's dump stat is charisma, the DC probably wasn't much higher than the mid-high 20's.




While Xykon definitely is the type to swat a fly with a bazooka, I'd say he's more likely to use the bazooka because it's more entertaining, not because he's worried about the fly surviving.

Smite evil damage is based on paladin level, not Cha modifier. O-Chul's Paladin level is probably around 12, and he'd probably have a Strength of at least 14 given he started as a fighter. So assuming he rolled high, which is likely given Xykon's reaction, he'd have been doing 25-odd damage. Xykon's DR is a big factor though. Depends on the specifics.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-18, 12:11 PM
I would also like to point out that "Ultimate Arcane Power" in D&D is basically the ability to screw around with the Epic spell creation rules. I mean I was screwing around with a crazy idea and accidentally made something that levels Cities. I can't imagine what V could come up with if he/she/it actually TRIED to END someone.

Besides I bet Rich can't resist the ability to makes jokes about the Epic level spell system. That's the best reason for the order to go Epic, so Rich can joke about it XD.

David Argall
2009-01-18, 01:09 PM
O-Chul's Paladin level is probably around 12,

O-Chul's total level may not be 12. 10 may be the best guess. [He is no more than the 3rd highest level Paladin, and Hinjo, #2, is assumed to be lower level than the 13th level party.] Add in that 12 years as a fighter and the reason we have not seen him summons his mount may be that he does not have 5 paladin levels.
However, he presumably has Power Attack, and uses his sword two-handed. Add in his sword is likely pretty magical, and there should be a number of buffs and magic items and he may well be able to hit for 35-40 damage per swing [=20-25 after DR] and leaving Xykon with a con check in the 30's or 40's.

Optimystik
2009-01-18, 01:40 PM
Given Xykon's DR and that O-Chul's dump stat is charisma, the DC probably wasn't much higher than the mid-high 20's.

Charisma is added to the attack roll, not the damage. You're probably thinking of Neverwinter Nights.


While Xykon definitely is the type to swat a fly with a bazooka, I'd say he's more likely to use the bazooka because it's more entertaining, not because he's worried about the fly surviving.

Even assuming this is true, using high level spells because they're more fun is also a reason for him to burn through his upper spell slots first in a confrontation with the Order, which was my point. Once he decides to get involved, he's more likely to use his flashier, higher-level spells first even if it's strategically inadvisable.

Keinnicht
2009-01-18, 06:57 PM
I
Besides I bet Rich can't resist the ability to makes jokes about the Epic level spell system. That's the best reason for the order to go Epic, so Rich can joke about it XD.

Making fun of the Epic level spell system is like making fun of the disabled. It's almost too easy to be funny.

Optimystik
2009-01-18, 06:59 PM
Making fun of the Epic level spell system is like making fun of the disabled. It's almost too easy to be funny.

Yet unlike the disabled, it deserves it, meaning it would be. :smallbiggrin:

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-21, 03:38 AM
Charisma is added to the attack roll, not the damage. You're probably thinking of Neverwinter Nights.

He may have been assuming that he offsets the Power Attack exchange with the attack bonus.


Even assuming this is true, using high level spells because they're more fun is also a reason for him to burn through his upper spell slots first in a confrontation with the Order, which was my point. Once he decides to get involved, he's more likely to use his flashier, higher-level spells first even if it's strategically inadvisable.

Nah, it's been stated that Xykon tends to want to use the least amount of effort to deal with a situation (in the latest OotS compilation) and so far this seems to mean lower level spells. This makes sense if you assume that higher level spells take more effort to cast.

Plus, as we've seen with O'Chul, he enjoys tormenting someone a lot more than he enjoys turning them into a pile of ash. This is a major difference between him and V.


Yet unlike the disabled, it deserves it, meaning it would be. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah. :smallbiggrin:

Besides Rich has, so far, never made a joke about the Epic rules (unless you count Roy not understanding why Dorukan would leave the "gaping hole" in his uber spell) and I can't see him leaving such a wide open corner of the rules unpunned. Hell he could probably get a month's worth of strips off of the weirdness of the epic rules compared to the normal ones after the characters level up.

Jan Mattys
2009-01-21, 03:52 AM
Ok, new question for everybody:

What's so fun about epic rules that Rich has to joke about?
I mean, so far "Epic" has been considered a cool thing, with no backslashes. Dorukan was a kick-arse mage, and he was quite cool in Start of Darkness. Same goes for Lirian. And same goes for Soon.

So, why is it epic status so fun and so badly-ruled? Why is it so likely that Rich makes fun of that system?

I ask because I didn't play AD&D since 2nd edition, so I'm quite a n00b about recent edition systems...

Anteros
2009-01-21, 03:58 AM
I'm not sure epic levelled people are as rare in ootsworld as we've always believed.

For example, we're currently assuming Haley to be somewhere around 14th level, and Bozzok was apparently at least 4 levels higher than her. He's pretty close to breaking the epic range if he isn't there already...and in the grand scheme of things in OOTSworld he's a pretty minor player.

My point is, if the leader of a thieves guild in some backwater city is approaching epic levels, it's likely that there are quite a few other powerful individuals in the world that we simply have not met.

Underground
2009-01-21, 04:52 AM
It's not that likely that they'll get Epic levels--they'd have to kill a LOT of reasonably-levelled enemies to do that, and it would slow the story down. [...] ...

What gives you the idea that the story uses progression like a CRPG ?

Not even in Pen & Paper it works like that. If the DM decides you gained a level - you gained a level. No need for killing anything at all.

magic9mushroom
2009-01-21, 05:53 AM
Ok, new question for everybody:

What's so fun about epic rules that Rich has to joke about?
I mean, so far "Epic" has been considered a cool thing, with no backslashes. Dorukan was a kick-arse mage, and he was quite cool in Start of Darkness. Same goes for Lirian. And same goes for Soon.

So, why is it epic status so fun and so badly-ruled? Why is it so likely that Rich makes fun of that system?

I ask because I didn't play AD&D since 2nd edition, so I'm quite a n00b about recent edition systems...

Because epic stuff gets ridiculous under a lot of circumstances. An often-quoted one is the Diplomacy check whereby a character converts a group of hostiles into fanatic followers in 6 seconds flat. Epic Bluff checks often function as suggestion. There's Epic feats that give more life span, instakill crits with no save, ignoring materials for spells, all sorts of insane ****. Epic Spells... yeah. OW.

Underground
2009-01-21, 06:26 AM
I fail to see the issue, to be honest.


[...] An often-quoted one is the Diplomacy check whereby a character converts a group of hostiles into fanatic followers in 6 seconds flat. [...] Yeah, and even more riddiculous would be a spell who could kill all these people immediately. Which is doable by a level 5 wizard with a Fireball (as your example suggests these are lowbies).

So what else do you expect from an epic Bard ?

Its ok if you dont like it, but that doesnt make it invalid.

Lavidor
2009-01-21, 06:47 AM
Under the RAW of Diplomacy, there's no difference between an group of dragons and those goblins you were fighting 16+ levels ago (except magic stuff). So yeah, I think it's problematic.