Diamonds

[King of Nowhere]

So, it seems that in this world a lot of diamonds are used to resurrect people. Some dozen thieves, the guard Belkar killed in azure city, Eugene was resurrected six times... and every time a big diamond is consumed in the process.
We know how rare diamonds are. Even in the real world, where we have advanced mining tecniques, diamonds are one of the rarest goods.
Shouldn't all the resurrections in a DnD world bring to a generalized lack of dimaonds? There can't be all that diamonds in the world. In the best case, their price should have risen consistently, so the "5000 gp worrth of diamonds" should become "x grams of diamonds, that once were worth 5000 gp, but with the price growth caused by the rising demand from adventurers now are worth 11254 gp" (I think the spell is sensitive to the mass of the diamonds, not their market price).
A miracle or wish spell can be used to create diamonds in the extreme (up to 15000 gp value under 3.0 rules, under 3.5 I don't know), but I don't see a 17th level character sacrifice 5000 XP to get a few thousands gp (considering the whealt per level tables, they don't need it).
So, where does all that diamonds come from???

[BRC]

Actually, I think I learned somewhere that Diamond's arn't as rare as their market price would indicate, but the big diamond selling corporations have alot of diamonds in stockpiles off-the market to keep the supply low.

[hamishspence]

Actually they are by far the commonest of the precious stones.
(ruby, emerald, sapphire being among other precious ones)

and the spell doesn't mention mass. and it doesn't say "diamond" but "Diamonds"- meaning its a whole bunch of stones. Much commoner at small sizes.

[BRC]

Also, it requires the Price of diamond, not the amount. So if you need X grams of Diamond to raise somebody from the dead, if the price of diamonds doubles, you would only need half as much Diamond.

[hamishspence]

yes "Diamonds worth a total of X"

now there are things that require single stones, but the Raise/Res/True Res group doesn't.

[Egmorn]

And in fact, diamond are "so common", that we know how to produce cheap artificial diamonds.
They are used almost everywhere in HiTech industry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_diamond/

[King of Nowhere]

Graphite can be turned to diamonds only at really high temperature and pressure, and one must know that they're both made of carbon before, a knowledge a middle-age like culture don't have.
I don't think they have spells like "create oblivious temperatur and pressure" or "rearrange crystal structure". That should put artificial diamonds off the table. Also, they're not the same as natural diamonds; for industry they're fine, for jewelry they sucks, for magic I don't think anyone ever tried to rule it.
Now that I think of it, a wish or miracle should be able to rearrange atoms in graphite, thus creating diamonds natural-like for a value much greater than 15000 gp (in my campaign world I use that to justify the presence of diamonds in a society that uses a lot of them).
I was just curious about what happens in oots, though.

[pendell]

a knowledge a middle-age like culture don't have.


This isn't a middle-aged culture. This is a sophisticated, highly technical society whose 'technical means' rely on an entirely different frame of reference than what we consider 'science'.

They have instantaneous communication over distance, knowledge of the periodic table of the elements, Quest Buy stores that sell scrying devices as hardware, and every two-bit town can sell mid-level spells. Temples in major cities are capable of medical feats unknown to real-world science.



I don't think they have spells like "create oblivious temperatur and pressure" or "rearrange crystal structure".


They have spells that change elves into lizards, animate dead flesh into zombies or liches, summon meteor swarms. Normal mortals, with the right knowledge, can literally make the laws of physics sit down and shut up. They even have the ability to bring back the dead after they are decayed to skeletons. Consider the knowledge and plausibility of that in the real world. Now compare that to the knowledge and plausibility of converting graphite to artificial diamond.

Stacked that way, I don't see it as inherently unlikely that it could be done. I'm reasonably sure 'polymorph any object' could.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[tcrudisi]

Diamonds are borderline common in the "real world." The only reason they are as expensive as the market suggests has to do with supply and demand.

The diamond companies have a choice whenever they mine diamonds. They can farm them like crazy and put them all into the market or they can hold back and release them slowly. They choose the latter. The result is that diamonds are slow to enter into the market. This makes them "low supply." Any time there is a low supply the price will rise. Therefore diamonds are expensive because the companies artificially inflate the price.

I remember learning in one of my history courses about Russia going through a recession. Russia was trying to find a new industry to help build themselves from when a huge diamond discovery was made. They started to sell diamonds, at which point the other diamond companies went to Russia and said, "Hey, look at all these diamonds we have. Yeah, we've got a hell of a lot more. You've got 2 options - drop out of the industry or stay in it. If you stay in it, so many diamonds will flood the market that they will all be worthless anyway." So Russia withdrew.

I'm very fortunate to have a fiance that knows how common diamonds are. Because of this, she specifically asked not to receive a diamond ring. She doesn't like the fact that anyone can walk on a beach and pick one up (in Brazil, I believe), so she did not want me to throw away lots of money on a common stone. Instead, I purchased her a moissanite ring, which is another "artificial diamond." I'd say more about moissanite, but I don't want to come across as a spammer.

The point, though, is that diamonds are common. You can go to Arkansas and mine for them. Diamonds are very common for being a precious stone. If we let normal market flows take effect, the prices would be cut drastically. Therefore, whenever I run a game, diamonds are common. It takes a handful of diamonds to ressurrect someone. In OotS, however, I don't think there is any evidence what stance Rich has taken with his fantasy world.

[raphfrk]

Maybe they are bought from an infinite supply NPC :) ?

How are the actually obtained in the official rules. Do you just enter a town and there is an automatic price list ?

[hamishspence]

all towns have an upper limit of total cash that can be spent there. Beyond that, you've flooded the economy (or rather,they are out of coins to give you)

They also have GP limits for individual items. Whether "pile of diamonds" counts as one item (if there's only one gem merchant, it should) or separate (shopping around town and pooling the gems) is up to DM.

Note that even with GP limit, some items might be highly implausible to find. Cold-weather gear in a hot desert town, for example, unless you come up with some contrived explanation (adventurer low on cash sold the gear after coming from the cold north, to a second-hand clothes merchant., for example.) Though this sort of thing, limiting availability, is generally DM discretion.

[Theodoriph]

I remember learning in one of my history courses about Russia going through a recession. Russia was trying to find a new industry to help build themselves from when a huge diamond discovery was made. They started to sell diamonds, at which point the other diamond companies went to Russia and said, "Hey, look at all these diamonds we have. Yeah, we've got a hell of a lot more. You've got 2 options - drop out of the industry or stay in it. If you stay in it, so many diamonds will flood the market that they will all be worthless anyway." So Russia withdrew.


As an amusing aside, the Soviets were at the forefront of diamond creation technology, so during the cold war, when De Beers was buying Soviet diamonds...they were often buying zirconia. De Beers didn't figure it out for years (and they still won't admit that some of the Soviet diamonds are zirconia). They kept wondering how a Soviet mine that should have had its production of gem quality diamonds decline, instead was having it grow. Bwhaha. Those crafty Soviets.

[hamishspence]

that would be diamond-faking, not diamond creation.

Creation is carbon plus pressure & heat = sythetic diamond.

Faking is zirconia + heat = transparent zironia.

There are several easy tests for zirconia. Different specific gravity, slightly different refraction, hardness and others.

[Radar]

Hmm... but wasn't there a spell, that allowed producing matter other then Wish?

Anyway, in D&D it's always possible to just loot Earth Element Plane or some other. Maybe there is even a Diamond Plane if you look deep enough.

Also Polymorph Any Object can fix any problem.

[hamishspence]

in 2nd ed, every elemental plane had a border zone (positive energy) and a border zone (negative energy) called the Quasi-Elemental Planes.

Earth + Positive was the Plane of Minerals or Plane of Gems. Lotsa loot. Warning, stay out there without protection, you crystallize.

[Theodoriph]

that would be diamond-faking, not diamond creation.

Creation is carbon plus pressure & heat = sythetic diamond.

Faking is zirconia + heat = transparent zironia.

There are several easy tests for zirconia. Different specific gravity, slightly different refraction, hardness and others.

The technical term is a "simulant", not "faking", but I won't hold it against you. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

if they are telling people its real diamond,and they believe it, its a fake, a counterfeit, etc etc.

if they are saying "lookswise,its as good as diamond", and being honest, selling it to movies for props, or similar, its "diamond substitute"

on the Plane of Minerals bit- the list of Princes of Elemental evil & good, in Dragon magazine, include Crystalle, Prince of Minerals.

[Theodoriph]

if they are telling people its real diamond,and they believe it, its a fake, a counterfeit, etc etc.

if they are saying "lookswise,its as good as diamond", and being honest, selling it to movies for props, or similar, its "diamond substitute"


Nope. It's a simulant no matter what they claim. A person's claim about an object does not change what that object objectively is. "Man-made" diamonds come in two forms: synthetics and simulants.

If I tell someone a Volkswagen is a Grade AAA sirloin steak, that doesn't make the VW a fake Grade AAA sirloin steak. It's a Volkwagen. The term "fake grade AAA sirloin steak" means absolutely nothing. It doesn't tell you what the object actually is. In the same vein, if I commit fraud and tell you a simulated diamond is real diamond, it's a simulated diamond, not a fake diamond. The term "fake whatever" means absolutely nothing. It could be a anything. It's not an identifier of what the object actually is. That's why the terms simulant and synthetic are used. They identify the object.

[hamishspence]

the process of faking is- making something enough like the original to pass.

a simulant is always a simulant. But a simulated-anything actively being passed off as real is usually called, in colloquial terms, a fake. People might speak of fake pearls, or a faked artifact.

Depending on how you define diamond, synthetic diamond is still diamond.

now if someone sold them as "Genuine natural diamonds" we'd be justified in calling them "fake natural diamond"

terms like "fake" and "counterfeit" would only come into play in the context of fraud.

(Note that Simulant is not present on Wikipedia, closest is simulation. Fake and Counterfeit, however, are)

[Theodoriph]

the process of faking is- making something enough like the original to pass.

a simulant is always a simulant. But a simulated-anything actively being passed off as real is usually called, in colloquial terms, a fake. People might speak of fake pearls, or a faked artifact.

Depending on how you define diamond, synthetic diamond is still diamond.

now if someone sold them as "Genuine natural diamonds" we'd be justified in calling them "fake natural diamond"

terms like "fake" and "counterfeit" would only come into play in the context of fraud.

(Note that Simulant is not present on Wikipedia, closest is simulation. Fake and Counterfeit, however, are)



Your wiki-fu is poor, young one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_simulant

Your post basically explains why you're wrong. You were attempting to be precise in correcting my imprecise wording, and were imprecise yourself. You're now reverting to generalities, which of course, destroys the purpose of your original post.

A fake diamond can be a car, a steak, a moose, a bone, a piece of glass, a simulant, a synthetic, anything really. The term means nothing, which is why it's not used as a technical term.

[Liwen]

being one of many who doesn't care how you should call a &?$-?&($ diamond, allow me to steal a running gag from one of our forumers

"stabs the 3 comments above mine"
edit : "stabs the 10 comments above mine"
By the way, you are both right and both wrong, for the proper terminology of just about anything that exist is based on the subjective perception of a couple of humans that believe they are smart enough to decide how we should use a language. Given how extremely painfull and needlessly complicated some of those terminology rules are, I admit that these guys are smart, but that doesn't make them right.

[hamishspence]

good point-I went straight to simulant.

I was puzzled at the linking of "diamond creation" which implies synthetic only, and zirconia.

also, "counterfeit" is the more precise version of fake in this context. Only if something is being claimed to be real and isn't, does it become a counterfeit rather than just a simulant.

(meaning, if they are selling zirconias to De Beers as diamonds, then its not just a simulant,but a counterfeit as well)

[David Argall]

Getting back to the basic question, D&D does not simulate reality that perfectly. There are assumed to be an infinite supply of any good you might want, and the party will not run into shortages, except where the DM finds them useful.
This is normally a reasonable assumption. The party is a tiny party of the total economy, and their influence on prices is generally going to be too small to bother with. Now here, we are talking about what may amount to quite a few spells, possibly as many as are cast in a year. That could easily exhaust the local diamond supply and cause a price hike. But presumably Cliffport has a good supply too, and so the gems will be supplied without a really huge jump.

It doesn't matter that much if Haley is indirectly having to pay 150,000 gold she doesn't have, or 200,000 she doesn't have.

[SSGW Priest]

Another method of diamond manufacture in an OOTS world; spell research.

- variant of wall of stone
- summon diamond
- constructs tasked to gather diamonds

Heck, Polymorph Any Object is perfect for this if you get past the silly conceit they used prohibiting objects on intrinsic value. How the heck does the spell know whether something has intrinsic value?

Now the GM may disallow spell research for its unbalancing of the economic system, but the theory is valid that a wizard could research ways to manufacture diamonds.

I was going to suggest major creation as a method, but it is temporary in duration. Major creation's duration is amusing given wall of stone is permanent.

This entire thread does raise an interesting question on the viability of a gold based economy in a world of magic.

[MickJay]

I've read an opinion on this, among some weird assumptions the author convincingly argued that anything worth more than 15000 gold would not be sold for gold, but rather traded for items of equal value (valuable gems, rare crafting materials, other magic items and such). Maybe someone knows the site and original text?

[King of Nowhere]

Quote:
a knowledge a middle-age like culture don't have.
This isn't a middle-aged culture. This is a sophisticated, highly technical society whose 'technical means' rely on an entirely different frame of reference than what we consider 'science'.

They have instantaneous communication over distance, knowledge of the periodic table of the elements, Quest Buy stores that sell scrying devices as hardware, and every two-bit town can sell mid-level spells. Temples in major cities are capable of medical feats unknown to real-world science.

Quote:
I don't think they have spells like "create oblivious temperatur and pressure" or "rearrange crystal structure".
They have spells that change elves into lizards, animate dead flesh into zombies or liches, summon meteor swarms. Normal mortals, with the right knowledge, can literally make the laws of physics sit down and shut up. They even have the ability to bring back the dead after they are decayed to skeletons. Consider the knowledge and plausibility of that in the real world. Now compare that to the knowledge and plausibility of converting graphite to artificial diamond.

Stacked that way, I don't see it as inherently unlikely that it could be done. I'm reasonably sure 'polymorph any object' could.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That... is a very valid perspective I missed to consider. But now I have another question tormenting me...
HOW IN SUCH A WORLD A BIG DIAMOND CAN STILL COST A LOT OF MONEY???

[BRC]

That... is a very valid perspective I missed to consider. But now I have another question tormenting me...
HOW IN SUCH A WORLD A BIG DIAMOND CAN STILL COST A LOT OF MONEY???
Market politics. As it has been explained, most diamonds are put in stockpiles somewhere and slowly released into the market, this keeps the price high.

[MickJay]

WotC tries to convince people that the social arrangements of D&D is similar to that of Iron Age or mediaeval times; it would be difficult to have an organization that could control at least majority of world's trade (even for a single commodity, like diamonds) in a world that doesn't even have international organizations yet (what with lack of actual nations and such). I mean, you could do it with teleporting wizards and such, but why bother? Wizards have better ways of making money than hiding huge stockpiles of diamonds and slowly releasing them...

My guess would be that large amounts of gems are being used up constantly, and the new ones that are mined/summoned/wished for/whatever more or less balance out those used up.

All in all any explanation is good, it's a fictional world with cube-shaped live chunks of gelatine and trying to make it look as if it had sense is a lost cause from the beginning. I try not to think too much about D&D fluff, it makes things even worse. :smalltongue:

[MadScientistMat]

An even stranger question: Does it have to be gem grade diamonds? It could be that black diamonds will do - which are a lot more common, and usually get made into industrial tooling as they aren't suitable for jewlery. But if raising the dead takes diamonds, it's possible their entire value in a fantasy world could stem from their utility in this spell, and they are drawing from a much larger supply than the small fraction of diamonds suitable for jewlery.

[Theodoriph]

An even stranger question: Does it have to be gem grade diamonds? It could be that black diamonds will do - which are a lot more common, and usually get made into industrial tooling as they aren't suitable for jewlery. But if raising the dead takes diamonds, it's possible their entire value in a fantasy world could stem from their utility in this spell, and they are drawing from a much larger supply than the small fraction of diamonds suitable for jewlery.


Nope just diamonds. 10 000 gp worth of diamonds. They can be the ugliest diamonds in the world, as long as there are 10 000 gps worth.

[Optimystik]

Hmm... but wasn't there a spell, that allowed producing matter other then Wish?

True Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/trueCreation.htm), but not many clerics can cast it. You'll end up expending at least as much exp as Wish or Miracle anyway.