The terms of the contract with the guild are irrelevant...

[Robert Paulson]

and so is the amount, if any, stolen by Haley since leaving the guild.

A contract for illegal services is void/unenforceable at law, and so no amount of logic, or legal wrangling, or parsing of language should figure into this scenario. The only arbiter of the meaning of the agreement will be the two parties, and if relations break down, Haley's options will be fight, lie or comply.

The main fact that matters at the moment is that Haley and Co. are now within the thieves guild, where they can easily be killed if they disagree with the terms of the "contract" they have signed.

They appear to have committed a big tactical error, and they will either have to agree with whatever nonsense the thieves have to say, pretend to agree and slip away from the guild under some deceit, or fight for their lives.

That's it.

[hamishspence]

the "contract" is an agreement. Sure, the thieves guild would be laughed at if they took haley to court for breach of contract. But its a thieves & Assassins guild. Haley has a very pressing reason not to default on the agreement- they'd put assassins on her trail.

Same applies to why make the agreement in the first place. Because, they can't outfight the whole guild, and running isn't necessarily safe either. As we saw either, Belkar needed heals from CoL to keep him up to scratch after the fight with the thieves. And Haley is no better protected than him.

Having a knife to enemy leader is no help if, on cutting his throat, the whole group comes straight at you.

[BRC]

First of all, the Thieves guild appears to pretty much be The Law in cliffport. Secondly, even if this isn't an officially legally binding contract, it can still be enforced in plenty of ways. Even if they don't actually make Haley pay up, they can impede her goals in some pretty substantial ways.

[Robert Paulson]

You two seem to have missed the point. There are lots of people on this forum arguing over what constitutes "stealing". The point is that the definition of "stealing" and other contract-based arguments are irrelevant, because no court will interpret a contact for illegal services. Thus, the only parties left to interpret the agreement are Haley, on the one hand, and the thieves guild, on the other hand. If Haley fails to perform under the "contract", the Thieves Guild will eventually try to kill her. This puts everyone back to square one. Thus, if there is going to be a disagreement between the parties, the terms of the "contract" are irrelevant.

[BRC]

Yes they are highly relevant. Going back to square one is bad if your currently on square five, which is where they are, very close to achieving their goals. Haley simply didn't know the full cost when she agreed to Celia's deal. The point is, if Celia can convince the guild to take a very strict defenition on what constitutes Theft, then Haley may go along with it anyway. If the guild wants more than Haley is willing to pay, then things go bad.
Also, whether a contract is enforced by a court or by a group of thugs and assasins, it's still being enforced, and the contractee's are still motivated to stick to it.

[Haven]

Because, they can't outfight the whole guild...
Having a knife to enemy leader is no help if, on cutting his throat, the whole group comes straight at you.

Except we've just proven that they can, and DID, and that the rest of the guild won't.

If Celia had straight-up told Haley about the fifty-percent thing, Bozzok and Crystal would be dead and Hank would have to find a very compelling reason not to join them.

Really, the Thieves' Guild is not a credible threat at all; its power is ultimately founded in violence, and its violence doesn't match the PCs. I think this story is aware of it to some degree, and the throw-away line about a power vacuum to be filled by MMO monsters doesn't really cut it. It just feels like an artificial complication. I guess that I feel about this the way V felt about Kubota, is what I'm saying.

[hamishspence]

said fighting was helped by resources- CoL's heals, celia's potions. They are out of those.

violence can only take characters so far,there are times when quantity has a quality of its own.

[Haven]

said fighting was helped by resources- CoL's heals, celia's potions. They are out of those.

violence can only take characters so far,there are times when quantity has a quality of its own.

But the quantity was supplied only by the fact that they were all willing to charge to their doom for Bozzok. I really doubt they're going to be so willing to do so a second time.

And that's assuming they don't start round 2 until the CoL resurrects all the dead and heals up Crystal and Bozzok, and for some reason don't replenish their supplies while he does that, and even in that scenario I really can't see the thieves being willing to charge straight to their deaths AGAIN.

[High King Iggy]

To put it another way, Hank has agreed to break the protection contract he has with Grubwiggler for the convenience, appearance, and profit of the thieves' guild.

... does he have any real reason to keep the one with Haley and OotS more than that one ???

[MickJay]

The reason for all these discussions is that we don't really know what exactly wass Giant's intent when he put his protagonists in this situation. In the next strip or two we may learn that Haley suddenly owes Guild from over 100 thousand to, whatever, say 2 million gp (depending on what's "stealing", how much dragon's gold was worth, how much Haley's aid to Azure City's resistance was worth and so on). We may learn that she owes extremly little or nothing at all (there are quite a few possibilities for that as well).

Guild's contracts mean nothing when Guild itself is unable to enforce them, and that's standard for all illegal agreements, deals, contracts and so on made with any and every criminal organization. This does in no way mean they are "irrelevant", at least as long as Guild has any means to force someone to pay. If Haley decided simply to skip the town, the Guild probably wouldn't send it's own members after her (the strongest ones got defeated, and their absence in the city could undermine Guild's position), but it would almost certainly hire assassin(s) to make example of Haley.

[BRC]

Actually, Haley does have reason to not break the contract, even though she can trounce the entire guild in combat. Remember, she was convinced to agree to it while she had her bow pointed at the frozen head of the guild leader. In terms of a bargaining position, hank was in a pretty bad one. So if the only reason she is agreeing to it is because she fears attack, then enforcement would be very difficult, but its obviously not.

[Robert Paulson]

To put it another way, Hank has agreed to break the protection contract he has with Grubwiggler for the convenience, appearance, and profit of the thieves' guild.

... does he have any real reason to keep the one with Haley and OotS more than that one ???

That's the thing. There is no "contract". It is a complete nullity and a fiction, and it will be cast aside as soon as the Thieves Guild finds it more convenient to disregard the "terms".

Celia's strategy seems really short sighted at the moment.

[BRC]

That's the thing. There is no "contract". It is a complete nullity and a fiction, and it will be cast aside as soon as the Thieves Guild finds it more convenient to disregard the "terms".

Celia's strategy seems really short sighted at the moment.
Except that it's not a "Contract" so much as a Mutually beneficial deal, for the reasons Hank described. The Guild keeps and improves its reputation, dosn't have Haley kill it's leadership and break it's power, and get's money. Meanwhile, Haley get's roy's corpse revived and dosn't get the theieves guild trying to kill her, which even if they wouldn't succeed, is still an upside. Therefore, the deal will only be broken if it benefits the thieves guild more than keeping it, which in this case, it does not.

[Robert Paulson]

Except that it's not a "Contract" so much as a Mutually beneficial deal, for the reasons Hank described. The Guild keeps and improves its reputation, dosn't have Haley kill it's leadership and break it's power, and get's money. Meanwhile, Haley get's roy's corpse revived and dosn't get the theieves guild trying to kill her, which even if they wouldn't succeed, is still an upside. Therefore, the deal will only be broken if it benefits the thieves guild more than keeping it, which in this case, it does not.

You're only looking at it from one side. What if Haley wants to break it?

[BRC]

You're only looking at it from one side. What if Haley wants to break it?
Once again, she won't break it until the costs (Pretty much only the money, though perhaps not getting a chance to kill Bozzok and Crystal) outweigh the benefits. Hence the question of how much money she stole and therefore owes to the guild.

[Robert Paulson]

Once again, she won't break it until the costs (Pretty much only the money, though perhaps not getting a chance to kill Bozzok and Crystal) outweigh the benefits. Hence the question of how much money she stole and therefore owes to the guild.

Which brings us right back to my original point. If there is any disagreement about what Haley actually owes to the guild, any contract-based argument is worthless.

Your cost-benefit analysis is irrelevant to the discussion.

[hamishspence]

it helps to know what the original terms are, so that who know how large the discrepancy between what Haley wants to pay is, and what the guild want her to pay.

if the gap is huge, we expect violence.
if the gap isn't, we might expect more negotiation.

Note that when Grubwiggler informed the Guild of the breach, they had an obligation to fulfil their contract with him- if, they didn't wish to start losing customers.

Get a reputation for breaking deals, and it hurts future business.

[BRC]

Which brings us right back to my original point. If there is any disagreement about what Haley actually owes to the guild, any contract-based argument is worthless.

Your cost-benefit analysis is irrelevant to the discussion.
Not quite as irrelevant as you think. It is simply somthing else for them to haggle and debate over. Imagine the following situation, because it has a parallel
A marketplace, the merchant is selling a scarf to a customer. The customer is willing to pay Ten dollars for the scarf, the merchant wants twenty dollars for it. Does this mean that one side must accept the merchants offer or refuse the deal entierly? no, Haggling of this sort was very common, and is still common in some parts of the world. Now, if an agreement cannot be reached, if neither side is willing to give enough for the other to accept, then the deal is off, in the meantime, there are countless possibilities.

In this case, the subject of the debate is how much gold Haley needs to hand over to the guild.

[Wanton Soup]

I would point out that the REASON why Haley left was because her father was ransomed. An act of the head of the Thieves' Guild, so the Thieves' Guild must pay or help to get her father back (else she will just leave again).

Additionally, since Crystal's level went up because of Haley's work, she has effectively been working two jobs for the guild (if they make the fiction she was always working for them, hence the backdated levies). Haley is therefore entitled to the majority of Crystal's receipts and the value of internal contracts made out and completed by her for the Thieves' Guild.

Haley doesn't have the money, so she can just leave and ignore the monies owed. And since the contract is decidedly one-sided ("stop killing us and give us lots of money and we'll get your friend back and raise him. Oh, and you have to raise the people who died trying to kill you") there's no reason for Haley to go along with it. A more even contract would be "Stop killing us and we'll get your friend back". Both sides get something: left alive and in charge and the other side get their friend back.

Haley will have to explain WHY she left to Celia, though.

This poor contract can be voided fairly morally.

[Kish]

Haley doesn't have the money, so she can just leave and ignore the monies owed. And since the contract is decidedly one-sided ("stop killing us and give us lots of money and we'll get your friend back and raise him. Oh, and you have to raise the people who died trying to kill you")
Why do people keep thinking this?

The contract is, rather, "Stop killing us and give us lots of money, and we'll get your friend back, raise him, and raise the people who died trying to kill you." (Other details, such as those relating to power vacuums in Greysky City, are irrelevant to the issue of who is supposed to pay to resurrect the dead guild members.)

[Robert Paulson]

You people are crazy.

The idea of any further "negotiation" is a joke. At the time of the original negotiation, Haley's bargaining power was increased by the fact that she had several high level Guild members in a position to be killed, a state from which their successors in power would not want them returned. Further, the likelihood of Haley's escape was significant if she had killed Bozzok and Crystal and then turned on Hank. Now that Haley is in the Thieves Guild building, surrounded by thieves, her bargaining capacity is significantly diminished. The high-level Thieves can be quickly revived, and you are crazy if you think that every single thief in the Guild took part in the assault on Pete's house. There are reserves in that building. Lots of reserves.

The fact that the Guild wanted to spin the situation with Grubwiggler is not evidence that these kinds of contracts must be upheld. To the contrary, it is evidence that the Guild believes they may be broken fairly easily.

Haley had her chance, and now she is surrounded by Guild members and party to a sham "contract" that she hasn't even read. It was a tactical blunder of epic proportions, and Celia has committed malpractice to boot.

The analogy to haggling over a scarf is certifiably crazy. If Haley were to walk away from a blown "scarf deal", the result is no transaction. If Haley tries to walk away from this deal with the Guild, the Guild will try to kill her. Nice thinkin'.

:smallannoyed:

[BRC]

Her position is stronger than you think. Okay, so she's no longer in a position to destroy the guild leadership, but all those theives she and belkar killed are still dead, Bozzok and Crystal are still wounded. And if it comes to blows, Haley dosn't need to kill the entire guild, she just needs to escape. Remember, this whole incident is because the guild is worried about it's reputation. If haley escapes from the guild's clutches and tells the truth about what happened, then everybody knows a single former guildmember returned to the city, stole from somebody with a platinum plus protection contract with the guild, then killed a good portion of them and had their leader at her mercy. Now, it's possible that people won't believe her, or that she can't escape, so the strength of her position is the likelyhood that the guild will be able to stop her, and the guild's willingness to risk that.
And though they may not have brought all the guild thieves to Pete's house, from the looks of things they certainly brought some of their strongest, and in DnD masses of low-levels are useless against higher-levels.

[GSFB]

The terms are absolutely irrelevant.

Haley and Belkar totally took down the guild. The only remaining "power" guild members we even know of, Bozzok and Crystal, have been defeated once by Haley and Belkar, and would easily be defeated again if necessary.

When it becomes necessary, Haley and Belkar will be the ones going on offense with a plan, instead of having to completely improvise (with Belkar incapacitated to begin the encounter). They will have every tactical advantage and can gang up on their opponents one at a time when it is most convenient.

Furthermore, Durkon and Elan will, one way or another, reunite with Haley and Belkar soon. With two more decent combatants plus strong healing power, the foursome can annihilate the guild if necessary.

And let's not overlook the return of Roy, who could singlehandedly defeat Bozzok and Crystal together - he is too tactically brilliant to get caught in a flank and can cut the two of them to ribbons with his great sword.

Finally, we can certainly hope that Vaarsuvius comes back into play soon. After all, s/he will soon be able to scry Haley again as the Cloister effect will have ended.

The only real card the guild has is Haley's father, and if the guild is wiped out fast and clean there is little that could be done before Haley springs him.

All Haley needs to do is act like everything is kosher, go along with Hank and Celia, get Roy back, join up with Durkon, Elan and Vaarsuvius, then they can quickly eliminate the remaining guild threat, rescue Haley's father, and - if necessary - renegotiate with Hank to leave him in charge of Greysky as they depart to continue their quest.

The entire guild deal is irrelevant and nothing more than a device to draw out this story line until the author is ready to move on... and possibly a device to add new character-driven conflict (such as making Celia more of an antagonist, in the spirit of Miko, or giving Belkar some "player" time).

[Optimystik]

I'm with RP here, but we're probably all underestimating Haley. I doubt she'll play the good little soldier for the Guild that she hates so much. She is (or will be) using them to get Roy raised every bit as much as they think they are using her to recover their rep and finances.

Bozzok and Hank will be the ones grinding their teeth at the end of this arc, I am thinking.

[GSFB]

Bozzok, Crystal, and maybe Hank will end up like Kubota. No loose ends. No one to keep the Order of the Stick from getting back on track with their main mission of saving the world.

Remember, once Haley has been out of the Cloister effect for a week, Vaarsuvius will be able to find and contact Haley. Even without a teleport, it won't be too hard for a 14th level or so wizard to make his/her way to Greysky.

[NikkTheTrick]

Haley should follow the contract until Roy is resurrected.

That way, walking bags of XP known as Thieves' Guild members will be there for Roy once he is resurrected. Good way for him to get that level back.
Also, it will be a good way to explain to Celia that in places like Greysky City contracts can be re-negotiated through violence. Welcome to reality, baby :smallamused:

[Trixie]

@GSFB

Haley and Belkar totally took down the guild. The only remaining "power" guild members we even know of, Bozzok and Crystal, have been defeated once by Haley and Belkar, and would easily be defeated again if necessary.

Um, they not. They took only the expeditionary force, now they are in the main fortress.

When it becomes necessary, Haley and Belkar will be the ones going on offense with a plan, instead of having to completely improvise (with Belkar incapacitated to begin the encounter). They will have every tactical advantage and can gang up on their opponents one at a time when it is most convenient.

New Belkar on offense? Excuse me? :smallamused:

Furthermore, Durkon and Elan will, one way or another, reunite with Haley and Belkar soon. With two more decent combatants plus strong healing power, the foursome can annihilate the guild if necessary.

First, the addition of Elan to any fighting force will diminish it, not make it stronger, and the second point - I fail to see how they will know about their position, much less how they will travel to it. That cleric aborted sending to revive Belkar.

And let's not overlook the return of Roy, who could singlehandedly defeat Bozzok and Crystal together - he is too tactically brilliant to get caught in a flank and can cut the two of them to ribbons with his great sword.

Yeah, he will simply multiply himself to not make himself the flankee. Or use magic. Or teleport. Um, sorry, not.

Oh, and he is at least two levels behind Belkar now, so if anyone will be cut to ribbons, its him.

Finally, we can certainly hope that Vaarsuvius comes back into play soon. After all, s/he will soon be able to scry Haley again as the Cloister effect will have ended.

Yeah, they will certainly win if anyone will pile so much DeusExMachinas in their favor. Except, that is not going to happen.

The only real card the guild has is Haley's father, and if the guild is wiped out fast and clean there is little that could be done before Haley springs him.

Yeah, it was so simple that Haley soomehow never bothered to do it and collected all this gold out of greed... I mean, why spring someone beloved from the prison if you can count shiny gold? :smallsigh:

All Haley needs to do is act like everything is kosher, go along with Hank and Celia, get Roy back, join up with Durkon, Elan and Vaarsuvius, then they can quickly eliminate the remaining guild threat, rescue Haley's father, and - if necessary - renegotiate with Hank to leave him in charge of Greysky as they depart to continue their quest.

1. Pile up as much DeusExMachinas and cheat codes as you can
2. ...
3. Profit!

Um, except a good story doesn't work like that.

The entire guild deal is irrelevant and nothing more than a device to draw out this story line until the author is ready to move on... and possibly a device to add new character-driven conflict (such as making Celia more of an antagonist, in the spirit of Miko, or giving Belkar some "player" time).

You're offending Giant now, you know. :smallannoyed:

[zyphyr]

You people are crazy.

Not at all crazy. Your analysis of the situation differs from the other peoples because of one fundamental diference in viewpoint.

You believe that the guild is a credible threat to Haley and Belkar. The others don't.

I am in the 2nd camp. The success that the TG had in the initial encounter was dependent on two factors that you can be certain will not be the case in a repeat engagement.

1)The Belkster was incapacitated by the MoJ. No more MoJ...
2)It was a sneak attack. No advance prep on the side of Team Slightly Less Evil, which almost certainly won't be the case in a repeat engagement.

[Grail]

the problem that the OP has however, is that he is basing his argument on laws as stand in any reasonable Earth (Western Culture) legal system. Who is to say that a contract with a Thieves Guild isn't going to be upheld in this world/city?

Also, if there are Inevitables then there is that to take into consideration. They don't care who the contract is with if it is broken.

So, there just isn't any way to accurately make this statement because not all the knowledge is freely available and at hand.

[Scarlet Knight]

I believe the problem is with the word "contract" which implies some enforcement ability. I think of this contract as more of a "treaty". It will be kept as long as it serves both parties to do so. Boz & Crystal still want to kill Haley, and will wait to recover their strength and for an opportunity. Haley still doesn't want to hand over her cash, and will look for an "out".

The wording is only important for moral high ground,& in explaining to any third party that it was the OTHER person who broke the contract and therefore the injured party had to act.

Hank: "You killed Crystal & Boz!"
Haley: "No! They attacked me first! See the poison on Crystal's dagger? Now our contract is void, and I'm leaving, so don't anyone try to hunt me down in the night. Here's my final payment up to this point."
Hank: "Oh, well then...thanks; I never liked them anyway."

[Robert Paulson]

I believe the problem is with the word "contract" which implies some enforcement ability. I think of this contract as more of a "treaty". It will be kept as long as it serves both parties to do so. Boz & Crystal still want to kill Haley, and will wait to recover their strength and for an opportunity. Haley still doesn't want to hand over her cash, and will look for an "out".

The wording is only important for moral high ground,& in explaining to any third party that it was the OTHER person who broke the contract and therefore the injured party had to act.

This person understands. :smallsmile:

[Robert Paulson]

Not at all crazy. Your analysis of the situation differs from the other peoples because of one fundamental diference in viewpoint.

You believe that the guild is a credible threat to Haley and Belkar. The others don't.

No. There are two separate question which you are conflating. First, are the "contract" terms relevant? Second, was it a tactical error to enter the Thieves Guild? The question of who beats who in a fight is different from the question of whether a fight is the only way to enforce the "terms" of the "contract".

[GSFB]

Never try to fisk an experienced fisker...


Haley and Belkar totally took down the guild. The only remaining "power" guild members we even know of, Bozzok and Crystal, have been defeated once by Haley and Belkar, and would easily be defeated again if necessary.

Um, they not. They took only the expeditionary force, now they are in the main fortress.

They took down the guild leader and his top assassin, the only truly credible fighting force the guild has. Everyone else is cannon fodder, including Hank and whatever the fighter's name is (else they would have already seized power themselves). Haley and Belkar together would slaughter Bozzok and Crystal. Crystal couldn't even hit Belkar, and Haley held her own against Bozzok all by herself. The rest of the guild has already established they are not willing to die in a fight with Haley and are essentially useless to Bozzok at this point.


When it becomes necessary, Haley and Belkar will be the ones going on offense with a plan, instead of having to completely improvise (with Belkar incapacitated to begin the encounter). They will have every tactical advantage and can gang up on their opponents one at a time when it is most convenient.

New Belkar on offense? Excuse me?

Did you see 622?


Furthermore, Durkon and Elan will, one way or another, reunite with Haley and Belkar soon. With two more decent combatants plus strong healing power, the foursome can annihilate the guild if necessary.

First, the addition of Elan to any fighting force will diminish it, not make it stronger, and the second point - I fail to see how they will know about their position, much less how they will travel to it. That cleric aborted sending to revive Belkar.

Elan is quite tough in combat, especially with his prestige class and new magic rapier. He is as asset, even if he is also comedy relief. It is not clear if the cleric completed the sending or not. But the sending is irrelevant. As I said elsewhere, the Cloister effect is ending soon. Durkon will be able to divine the location of Haley. As for how to travel? Durkon is in good standing with a noble who has wizards who can teleport. Even if that service is not readily available, the fleet has made many contacts. Surely a high-level adventurer can obtain high-speed transportation.


And let's not overlook the return of Roy, who could singlehandedly defeat Bozzok and Crystal together - he is too tactically brilliant to get caught in a flank and can cut the two of them to ribbons with his great sword.

Yeah, he will simply multiply himself to not make himself the flankee. Or use magic. Or teleport. Um, sorry, not.

Oh, and he is at least two levels behind Belkar now, so if anyone will be cut to ribbons, its him.

Do you even understand how flanking works? In order for two rogues to flank, they need to get into a flanking position. Roy is tactically brilliant. He knows how to move himself in and out of melee in order to avoid getting caught within a flank. He is also good at positioning himself in such a way as to lead his opponents into tactical disadvantage. Consider the ogre with the spiked chain, for instance.

We also do not know how Roy's level will be affected by the afterlife. It has been hinted that he can gain XP while dead. He may also be returned to life without level loss. This is all up to the writer, who may prefer something akin to "Gandalf coming back more powerful" to straight D&D rules.


Finally, we can certainly hope that Vaarsuvius comes back into play soon. After all, s/he will soon be able to scry Haley again as the Cloister effect will have ended.

Yeah, they will certainly win if anyone will pile so much DeusExMachinas in their favor. Except, that is not going to happen.

You mean exactly the way Vaarsuvias already destroyed Kubota? And do you know what a Deus ex Machina really is? It is not one if Vaarsuvias, who has already established the power of flight, the power of long distance sight/communications, and the intention to find Miss Starshine, does exactly that.


The only real card the guild has is Haley's father, and if the guild is wiped out fast and clean there is little that could be done before Haley springs him.

Yeah, it was so simple that Haley soomehow never bothered to do it and collected all this gold out of greed... I mean, why spring someone beloved from the prison if you can count shiny gold?

Did you read the last few comics? Haley did not fully understand her father's situation... and, granted, neither do we. But it is strongly implied that Bozzok's influence landed the father in prison. With Bozzok killed, that situation changes. It is hardly inconceivable that Haley, especially with the backing of the full OotS, could then move quickly and rescue dad.

Also, let's not forget that the rest of the OotS is unaware of the father's imprisonment. Haley's motives are unknown to them. When she joined the party and started to amass the ransom, she may have assumed she would be unable to enlist aid. Now she is much more powerful and has a group that will risk themselves to aid her. She is not in the same situation as when started to count the shiny gold.


All Haley needs to do is act like everything is kosher, go along with Hank and Celia, get Roy back, join up with Durkon, Elan and Vaarsuvius, then they can quickly eliminate the remaining guild threat, rescue Haley's father, and - if necessary - renegotiate with Hank to leave him in charge of Greysky as they depart to continue their quest.

1. Pile up as much DeusExMachinas and cheat codes as you can
2. ...
3. Profit!

Um, except a good story doesn't work like that.

Yeah, good stories never include plot developments like characters working together to help each other in times of crisis. What was I thinking?


The entire guild deal is irrelevant and nothing more than a device to draw out this story line until the author is ready to move on... and possibly a device to add new character-driven conflict (such as making Celia more of an antagonist, in the spirit of Miko, or giving Belkar some "player" time).

You're offending Giant now, you know.

Well, I'll let the Giant chime in on that if he wants to.

[arkwei]

Guys, please note that Haley was able to leave the guild building ("ran out into the rain") to get a haircut.

So, obviously that the guild can't even confine Haley and Belker now. Plus, it's still the same day, Crystal and Bozz are still wounded, and quite a lot of thieves are still dead.

If they want to do it, H & B can totally massacre everyone in the guild.