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DiscipleofBob
2009-01-12, 04:13 PM
I'm trying to put together a table for classes and which races get racial stat boosts for those classes. Unfortunately, I don't have an Insider account so I can't get access to classes like the Druid, Bard, etc. to know what primary attributes these classes have.

Here's what I have so far:


{table=head]Classes|Primary Stats|Primary and Secondary Stat Boosts|Double Secondary Stat Boosts|Primary Stat Boost|Secondary Stat Boost
Artificer|Intelligence, Constitution|Githyanki|-|Doppelganger, Eladrin, Genasi, Gnome, Shadar-Kai, Tiefling|Dwarf, Gnoll, Half-Elf, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged
Barbarian|?|-|-|-|-
Bard|?|-|-|-|-
Cleric|Wisdom, Strength, Charisma|Longtooth Shifter|Dragonborn|Bladeling, Dwarf, Elf, Githzerai, Razorclaw Shifter|Bugbear, Doppelganger, Drow, Genasi, Gnome, Goblin, Half-Elf, Halfling, Hobgoblin, Minotaur, Orc, Tiefling, Warforged
Druid|?|-|-|-|-
Fighter|Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Wisdom|Bugbear, Longtooth Shifter, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged|Bladeling, Dwarf, Elf, Githzerai, Gnoll, Kobold, Razorclaw Shifter|Dragonborn, Genasi|Eladrin, Drow, Githyanki, Goblin, Halfling, Half-Elf, Hobgoblin, Shadar-Kai
Invoker|Wisdom, Constitution, Intelligence|Dwarf|Githyanki|Bladeling, Elf, Githzerai, Longtooth Shifter, Razorclaw Shifter|Doppelganger, Genasi, Gnoll, Gnome, Half-Elf, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Minotaur, Orc, Tiefling, Warforged
Paladin|Strength, Charisma, Wisdom|Dragonborn, Longtooth Shifter|-|Bugbear, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged, Genasi|Doppelganger, Drow, Dwarf, Gnome, Goblin, Half-Elf, Halfling, Hobgoblin, Tiefling
Ranger|Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom|Bugbear, Longtooth Shifter|Bladeling, Elf, Githzerai, Razorclaw Shifter|Drow, Dwarf, Eladrin, Gnoll, Goblin, Halfling, Kobold, Shadar-Kai
Rogue|Dexterity, Strength, Wisdom|Elf, Bladeling, Bugbear, Githzerai, Razorclaw Shifter|Longtooth Shifter|Eladrin, Gnoll, Kobold, Shadar-Kai|Bugbear, Dragonborn, Dwarf, Genasi, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged
Shaman|?|-|-|-|-
Swordmage|Intelligence, Strength, Constitution|Genasi, Githyanki|Minotaur, Orc, Warforged|Doppelganger, Eladrin, Gnome, Shadar-Kai, Tiefling|Bugbear, Dragonborn, Longtooth Shifter|Dwarf, Gnoll, Half-Elf, Halfling, Kobold
Warden|Strength, Constitution, Wisdom|Longtooth Shifter, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged|Dwarf|Bugbear, Genasi, Dragonborn|Bladeling, Elf, Githyanki, Githzerai, Gnoll, Half-Elf, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Razorclaw Shifter
Warlock|Charisma, Constitution, Intelligence|Doppelganger, Gnome, Half-Elf, Halfling, Tiefling|Githyanki|Dragonborn, Drow, Goblin, Halfling|Dwarf, Eladrin, Genasi, Gnoll, Kobold, Shadar-Kai, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged
Warlord|Strength, Intelligence, Charisma|Dragonborn, Genasi|Doppelganger, Gnome, Tiefling|Gnoll, Kobold, Longtooth Shifter, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged|Drow, Eladrin, Githyanki, Goblin, Half-Elf, Halfling, Hobgoblin, Shadar-Kai
Wizard|Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution|Eladrin, Githyanki, Shadar-Kai|Bladeling, Dwarf, Elf, Githzerai, Gnoll, Kobold, Razorclaw Shifter|Doppelganger, Genasi, Gnoll, Kobold, Tiefling|Bugbear, Drow, Goblin, Half-Elf, Halfling, Hobgoblin, Longtooth Shifter, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged[/table]

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-12, 04:39 PM
Wow, speak of the devil. I was just doing this exact thing with the DDI classes.

The druid is Wisdom primary, and Con/Dex secondary; I hadn't gotten to the barbarian or bard yet.

mrmaxmrmax
2009-01-12, 04:40 PM
There is a minor flaw with your chart. You have Wisdom listed as the Cleric's primary ability. In a lot of cases, you can focus on Wisdom or Strength for a Cleric.

The same problem applies to the Ranger. Strength or Dexterity is important. Some builds can benefit from both, but it is an either-or for primary there.

Maxwell.

Mando Knight
2009-01-12, 04:40 PM
This seems to be full of errors... especially the Rogue:



{table=head]Classes|Primary Stats|Primary and Secondary Stat Boosts|Double Secondary Stat Boosts|Primary Stat Boost|Secondary Stat Boost
Rogue|Dexterity, Strength, Wisdom|Elf, Bladeling, Bugbear, Githzerai, Razorclaw Shifter|Longtooth Shifter|Eladrin, Gnoll, Kobold, Shadar-Kai|Bugbear, Dragonborn, Dwarf, Genasi, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged[/table]

Rogues have no use for Wisdom outside of skills and multiclassing. They're Strength (Brutal Scoundrel) or Charisma (Artful Dodger), as stated in the PHB.

Thus, the Dragonborn get bumped to the Double Secondary Stat Boosts column, the Elves, Bladelings, Githzerai, and Razorclaw Shifters get moved out of the Primary and Secondary columns...

It should be like this:
{table=head]Classes|Primary Stats|Primary and Secondary Stat Boosts|Double Secondary Stat Boosts|Primary Stat Boost|Secondary Stat Boost
Rogue|Dexterity, Strength, Charisma|Bugbear, Drow, Githzerai, Goblin, Halfling|Dragonborn|Bladeling, Eladrin, Elf, Gnoll, Kobold, Razorclaw Shifter, Shadar-Kai|Bugbear, Doppelganger, Genasi, Hobgoblin, Longtooth Shifter, Minotaur, Orc, Tiefling, Warforged[/table]

Also, if the bold represents the primary attack stat of the class, Paladin should be Strength, Charisma, Wisdom; Rangers Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom; Warlocks Constitution, Charisma, Intelligence; and Clerics Strength, Wisdom, Charisma. You may need to add a column for "Double Primary Stat Boosts," with N/A in either that column or in the "Double Secondary Stat Boosts" column depending on the class, for example Paladins would have Dragonborn in the Double Primary column, and an N/A in the Double Secondary column.

DiscipleofBob
2009-01-12, 04:52 PM
Lots of typos I admit. Mostly because typing all the races over and over in a table format can get pretty confusing. I'll be sure to fix these in the final draft.

I'm also aware that many, many builds will have different priorities as far as stats go, I just used what the book listed as the most important stat.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-12, 04:57 PM
I'm also aware that many, many builds will have different priorities as far as stats go, I just used what the book listed as the most important stat.

What, like "You do not deal as much damage as the avenging paladin, but you are better at dealing with a wider array of situations. Your best ability score should be Charisma", or "You’re tougher than the deceptive warlock, and you’ve got powers to help you attack and defend in melee, as well as excellent ranged attacks. Your best attack powers depend on Constitution—make that your best ability score"?

Those classes don't have a "most important stat"; they have two, and your infernal pact warlock isn't going to be a damn bit of good if you don't acknowledge that.

Asbestos
2009-01-12, 05:05 PM
Lots of typos I admit. Mostly because typing all the races over and over in a table format can get pretty confusing. I'll be sure to fix these in the final draft.

I'm also aware that many, many builds will have different priorities as far as stats go, I just used what the book listed as the most important stat.

The book is weird then. Especially for paladins where you can't even make a straight up Str based paladin at every level.

Barbarians are Str/Con or Str/Cha (the 2nd one is according to the playtest, but no powers needing cha were shown)

Bards are Cha/Con or Cha/Int I believe.

Colmarr
2009-01-12, 05:06 PM
I don't see any mention of 'human' in the table.

It should probably be in every cell in the "Primary stat boost" column.

DiscipleofBob
2009-01-12, 05:16 PM
I don't see any mention of 'human' in the table.

It should probably be in every cell in the "Primary stat boost" column.

Humans weren't included because of precisely this reason. The purpose of the table is to give a good outlook at how good a particular race would be at any particular class just based off of the racial stat boosts. Humans can pretty much be anything as far as class is concerned.

RTGoodman
2009-01-12, 05:18 PM
Barbarians have Strength as their primary ability, and then Constitution or Charisma as secondary abilities, depending on what type of Barbarian you are (Constitution for Rageblood, Charisma for Thaneborn). Goliaths, supposedly, are the ideal Rageblood Barbarians, so I guess we can extrapolate from that they have +2 Str, +2 Con, putting them in your "Primary and Secondary Stat Boosts" column. Dragonborn fit in there, too, and there are at least a couple of races that get Con and Cha or one of the two.

I'll go look up Bard now (I have to find what Dragon issue it was in), and then edit this post. I'm pretty sure it's Charisma primary, and then Dexterity and Intelligence secondary, but don't hold me to that just yet. Alright, found it - Bards are Charisma primary, and Intelligence or CONSTITUTION secondary. Half-Elves are listed as the best Valorous Bards (Cha/Con), while Gnomes and Tieflings are listed as the best Cunning Bards (Cha/Int).

Artanis
2009-01-12, 05:27 PM
The Ranger isn't quite right, because as far as stats go, it's practically two different classes. A TWF Ranger is going to use STR and WIS, while a shooty Ranger is going to use DEX and WIS. So the chart should have "Strength OR Dexterity" (or something to that effect) as the bolded part, and then Wisdom exactly how it is.

That also makes Elves have a Primary + Secondary stat boost IF it's a shooty Ranger, but only Secondaries (perhaps even only one Secondary) for a TWF Ranger.

A couple other classes are sorta like that as well, but the Ranger is the one I'm most familiar with.


I have no clue what pet-using Rangers go for.



Edit: Oh great, NOW I notice that this has already been said :smallredface:

TheEmerged
2009-01-12, 07:27 PM
This seems to be full of errors... especially the Rogue: Rogues have no use for Wisdom outside of skills and multiclassing.

That's one heck of a qualifier :smallcool: Keep in mind that Perception is a Wisdom skill, as are Dungeoneering & Insight. If you take Artful Dodger, the importance of Wisdom takes a hit (since you'll be getting your Will bonus from Charisma).

Mando Knight
2009-01-12, 08:03 PM
That's one heck of a qualifier

Nowhere near the qualifier for Charisma: power bonuses. Many of the Artful Dodger-based powers play off of your Charisma.

Also, your Wisdom modifier will not make that much of a difference at lower levels, where the skill training is more important. At high levels, it does matter, but the skill training is still a dominant factor. A Rogue is more likely to focus on disabling the trap after he saw it activate than he is to deactivate it before it triggers. A brutal scoundrel doesn't want to diminish his power by pouring extra stat boosts into Wisdom rather than Strength and Dexterity, either. Thus, a Wisdom-focused Rogue is made of phail.

Colmarr
2009-01-12, 09:33 PM
Humans weren't included because of precisely this reason. The purpose of the table is to give a good outlook at how good a particular race would be at any particular class just based off of the racial stat boosts. Humans can pretty much be anything as far as class is concerned.

I don't think your logic follows.

If the chart is meant to show suitability of races for each class on the basis of attribute modifiers alone, then it needs to include humans. IMO it's silly to prepare the table on the basis that "oh, people already know about humans so I won't include them."

If you don't want to include them in the column I suggested, you should at least put a footnote at the bottom of the table referring to them.

TheEmerged
2009-01-12, 10:15 PM
Thus, a Wisdom-focused Rogue is made of phail.

I think we're talking passed each other. I'm not saying Rogues should focus on Wisdom, I'm just saying there is in fact a reason to have some.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-12, 10:20 PM
I think we're talking passed each other. I'm not saying Rogues whould focus on Wisdom, I'm just saying there is in fact a reason to have some.

Yeah, sure. But wisdom is certainly not one of their primary stats, which they should focus on. A rogue with 18 Dex and 18 Cha is going to be better than a rogue with 18 Dex and 18 Wis.

Tengu_temp
2009-01-12, 10:34 PM
There are some classes for whom the primary, not the secondary, stat depends on the build you have:
Paladins have either strength or charisma.
Warlocks have either constitution or charisma.
Priests have either strength or wisdom.
Rangers have either strength or dexterity.

DiscipleofBob
2009-01-13, 12:08 AM
I don't think your logic follows.

If the chart is meant to show suitability of races for each class on the basis of attribute modifiers alone, then it needs to include humans. IMO it's silly to prepare the table on the basis that "oh, people already know about humans so I won't include them."

If you don't want to include them in the column I suggested, you should at least put a footnote at the bottom of the table referring to them.

Duly noted, when the table is completed, outside of personal use I will give appropriate footnotes such as the lack of mention of humans and the fact that many class builds have completely different priorities regarding stats. In fact, I had originally intended to do just that, I just wanted the stat information regarding the other classes.

Asbestos
2009-01-26, 07:43 PM
*dig dig dig dig dig THUNK!... *
Found it! Man, this thread was deep.

Barbarian: Primary STR; Secondary CON or CHA
Sorcerer: Primary CHA; Secondary STR or DEX
Bard: Primary CHA; Secondary CON or INT
Druid: Primary WIS; Secondary CON or DEX

Kurald Galain
2009-01-27, 04:44 AM
This thread shows some pretty funny results.

Okay, so the best wizard is a moon elf; the best warlord is a huge friggin' lizardman, and the best warlock is a tiefling. No surprises there.

Then we get to the fun stuff. The best priest is... a weird shapeshifting thing. The best artificer (from Eberron) is an evil astral psionic silver-sworded freak who afaik doesn't even exist on Eberron. And the best nature warden is a mechanical construct. :smallbiggrin:

Totally Guy
2009-01-27, 06:20 AM
Is it just me or do halflings have sub-par racial abilities and poor suitability to multiple classes.

Tell me why they are awesome please.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-27, 06:26 AM
Is it just me or do halflings have sub-par racial abilities and poor suitability to multiple classes.

Depends. Most races from the PHB have a highly visual racial ability:

Dragonborn -> breath weapon
Dwarf -> self-healing
Eladrin -> teleport
Elf -> reroll
Human / half-elf -> extra power

And then there's halflings with a purely reactive ability, and tieflings with a few static bonuses. Decidedly less flashy, if you ask me, and neither strikes me as the best choice for any class (not even warlock, since human/half-elf synergize better imho).

Oracle_Hunter
2009-01-27, 06:31 AM
Is it just me or do halflings have sub-par racial abilities and poor suitability to multiple classes.

Tell me why they are awesome please.

Halflings. Man, they're pretty sweet.

(1) Artful Dodger Rogues get +CHA to their OA AC. Halflings get a +2 bonus to their OA AC. A Halfing Artful Dodger has obvious synergies (plus DEX & CHA are both Rogue stats)

(2) TWF Halfling Rangers have the OA Bonus too, and can easily qualify for Scimitar Dancing. Plus, they're pretty sneaky.

(3) Feylocks. Your powers are built around being sneaky and manipulating folks. You are a small creature with a CHA and Stealth bonus. And screw the INT, I have money DEX! :smallbiggrin:

(4) You're Small. This can be advantageous for sneaking around, getting through tight spaces, and so on.

(5) Make an enemy re-roll a hit against you, once per Encounter? Yes, please!

So they're no Dragonborn (*hates Dragonborn*) but they're hardly gimped. It's not like they're Eladrin or something :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2009-01-27, 06:53 AM
Halflings. Man, they're pretty sweet.
Especially with a good wine sauce. Nom nom nom.

Charity
2009-01-27, 08:20 AM
Arn't they a bit gamey for your tastes?

Halflings make pretty reasonable Cha paladins, some of their feats are very handy for defenders... heck they are not terrible Two weapon fighters as it goes.

Hal
2009-01-27, 11:30 AM
Barbarians have Strength as their primary ability, and then Constitution or Charisma as secondary abilities, depending on what type of Barbarian you are (Constitution for Rageblood, Charisma for Thaneborn). Goliaths, supposedly, are the ideal Rageblood Barbarians, so I guess we can extrapolate from that they have +2 Str, +2 Con, putting them in your "Primary and Secondary Stat Boosts" column. Dragonborn fit in there, too, and there are at least a couple of races that get Con and Cha or one of the two.


Orcs make awesome Rageblood Barbarians (+2 Str & Con).

Asbestos
2009-01-27, 01:28 PM
Arn't they a bit gamey for your tastes?

Halflings make pretty reasonable Cha paladins, some of their feats are very handy for defenders... heck they are not terrible Two weapon fighters as it goes.

I've seen some decent Halfling Warlord builds as well. Got more survivability than a lot of front line Warlords.

Awesomologist
2009-01-27, 02:17 PM
I've seen some decent Halfling Warlord builds as well. Got more survivability than a lot of front line Warlords.

The Halfling Rogue/Warlord multi-class can be fun. Makes a great "bandit leader".

Grynning
2009-01-27, 03:52 PM
Halflings will also make pretty good Wild Sorcerers (Cha/Dex).

By the way, does anyone else think it's odd how difficult it is to get a strength AND mental stat boost? If you want to play a Strength/Mental Stat class (which there are a LOT of) you're very heavily shoehorned to Dragonborn (yuck) or Genesai (kinda cool but don't work in every setting), or Shifter (same). I'm just annoyed that the races that appeal to me the least are the ones that are the best at the classes I want to play.

I'm sure Goliaths will get a Strength boost, and hopefully Half-Orc's as well. One of them will almost certainly be Str/Wis, since we really need an option for that besides the Shifter.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-01-27, 03:56 PM
Arn't they a bit gamey for your tastes?

Halflings make pretty reasonable Cha paladins, some of their feats are very handy for defenders... heck they are not terrible Two weapon fighters as it goes.

Oh the Tin Canadin. He is hilariously effective :smallbiggrin:

Artanis
2009-01-27, 04:50 PM
Halflings will also make pretty good Wild Sorcerers (Cha/Dex).

By the way, does anyone else think it's odd how difficult it is to get a strength AND mental stat boost? If you want to play a Strength/Mental Stat class (which there are a LOT of) you're very heavily shoehorned to Dragonborn (yuck) or Genesai (kinda cool but don't work in every setting), or Shifter (same). I'm just annoyed that the races that appeal to me the least are the ones that are the best at the classes I want to play.

I'm sure Goliaths will get a Strength boost, and hopefully Half-Orc's as well. One of them will almost certainly be Str/Wis, since we really need an option for that besides the Shifter.
Stat boosts aren't the end-all be-all of a race. There's also the racial powers, racial skill and defense boosts, and racial feats. Hell, this very fact is the entire point of Humans.