PDA

View Full Version : The Testing Party (3.X)



afroakuma
2009-01-12, 08:09 PM
I've been trying to independently evaluate the proper CRs for some of my homebrew monsters, but being ubiquitous on the dark side of the DM screen means I'm a bit out of touch with optimal character setup.

So, here's what I ask:

Give me an optimized four-member party consisting of one primary attacker, one primary supporter, one skillmonkey and one caster, at the level of your choice between 5th & 15th.

The rules:

• Commonly-accepted "ridiculous" PrCs (Incantatrix, Initiate of the Seven Veils etc.) should not be used.

• Pun-Pun and similar exploit characters need not apply. If DM fiat would reasonably have intervened, it shouldn't be tried.

• Character race must be LA +0.

• Select inventory based at DMG wealth per level guidelines, including magic item selection.

• Spell Compendium, PHB II, Complete Series and Magic Item Compendium are all viable.

• Basic strategy would be welcome but not required.

Parties will be run against series of CR-appropriate encounters and scored based on how well they do.

Tacoma
2009-01-12, 08:12 PM
I suggest you use the DMG NPC tables for each of the Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk, and Paladin to see who does best in a series of fights against the same monster, 1 on 1. Use the second-place finisher as your fighter.

Druid for the caster.

Rogue for the skillmonkey.

Bard for support.

Although you're going to get things a little off because the Druid's animal companion will muddy things up as a second frontline fighter. If that worries you, replace with Cleric.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 08:19 PM
I've already done that; as I said, I'm not excellent at optimization, and I want to see how these fare against real players.

TheStranger
2009-01-12, 08:28 PM
Keep in mind that the CR system is supposedly calibrated against poorly optimized characters (blaster wizard, anybody?) using the elite array. Just fill the major party roles with something halfway decent and go to town.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 08:32 PM
I'm not looking to try against "halfway decent," because I don't expect the players to go for half measures. I'm looking to test the viability of these monsters against powerful characters, even at levels approaching their CR.

TheStranger
2009-01-12, 08:49 PM
I understand that, my point was that CRs have been assigned based on an unoptimized party, and that a fully optimized party would most likely have an easier time against existing monsters than the CR would indicate. To assign a CR to your creature that is in line with the CRs assigned by WotC, you should test against a similarly unoptimized party.

Or not, if you're just trying to determine how your characters would fare against it, rather than assign an exact CR. But to get a CR in line with those assigned by WotC, you should use a test group similar to that used by WotC.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 08:54 PM
I'm not trying to assess a CR at even level; if I were, I would go with that route (and have).

I'm trying to assess a CR based on a lower-level party having to deal with the threat in question. If a fairly-optimized party three or four levels lower can plaster a monster to the walls, then either it has a glaring weakness that can be exploited that early or its CR needs to be adjusted down.

ericgrau
2009-01-12, 09:19 PM
Here, have my core fighter builds:
SAB (http://www.geocities.com/ericjgrau/tweaker6-SWF.gif)
THF (http://www.geocities.com/ericjgrau/tweaker6-THF.gif)
TWF (http://www.geocities.com/ericjgrau/tweaker6-TWF.gif)

The stats you need are to the far right: AB (of first attack), HP, AC, avg. damage and number of attacks.

Holy cow, TWF rated well above THF. How come I never noticed that before? Alright, someone post a core THF build and I'll post one that trounces yours in one of two different ways :smallbiggrin:. THF is so overrated. Found the bug thanks to BL. THF is better than TWF, like I originally remembered.

Draz74
2009-01-12, 09:22 PM
You wanting this in a PM, or what?

Cuz I have a party that I'm working on 20-level builds for, which meets your specifications. (Well, they're not super-optimized, but they're pretty decent. What Fax and other people around here "Tier 2" classes.) Unfortunately the Equipment process is a beast, which has taken me months to quibble over ... but I could do a sort of rough draft of the equipment part and send you this party at any or all of the requested level range.

(One of the reasons I'm doing the whole project is likewise in order to test out monster CRs.)

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 09:24 PM
Any level is fine. Here or in PM, either way.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-12, 09:33 PM
Here, have my core fighter builds:
SAB (http://www.geocities.com/ericjgrau/tweaker6-SWF.gif)
THF (http://www.geocities.com/ericjgrau/tweaker6-THF.gif)
TWF (http://www.geocities.com/ericjgrau/tweaker6-TWF.gif)

The stats you need are to the far right: AB (of first attack), HP, AC, avg. damage and number of attacks.

Holy cow, TWF rated well above THF. How come I never noticed that before? Alright, someone post a core THF build and I'll post one that trounces yours in one of two different ways :smallbiggrin:. THF is so overrated.

Well off the top of my head with a cursory glance, your "ratings" are just random evaluations of numbers that don't mean anything. And probably because you don't factor in any penalties for TWFing at all.

For example, both builds at level 1 have the same Str, the same BAB, and the same to hit, but one of them should be taking a minus 2 to his attacks. Of course if you don't factor that in, it looks better.

Also, I find it comical that they both have AC 34 at level 20, because it means that they actually wasted money on AC without doing anything, since even primarily caster CR 20s have hit that on a 2.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 09:34 PM
*sigh* I'll make this easy.

Any characters that you already have made, to a fairly reasonable level of optimization, give me the links if you'd like to contribute. I'll assemble parties of like-leveled characters myself.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-12, 09:46 PM
Well, I can't because apparently your version of Reasonable level of optimization is not taking a pretty basic and in no way even remotely overpowered PrC like IotSFV, so all my Clerics that take actual good PrCs are out, all my Wizards that take PrCs on that level (MS/IotSFV/anything full castering with some decent benefits) are out.

I'm sure you'd object to a level 10 Rogue that has 6 attacks a round and always gets SA, and I don't think I've ever played with a fighter who wasn't capable of doing 300+ damage if you set him up.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 09:55 PM
Any discussion of unbalanced arcane PrCs has always brought up IotSV, to my remembering. Incantatrix likewise.

What "good" PrCs are you referring to?

I wouldn't object to such a rogue; I'm curious as to how he can do all of that at 10th level, and what guarantees him SA.

ericgrau
2009-01-12, 09:57 PM
Well off the top of my head with a cursory glance, your "ratings" are just random evaluations of numbers that don't mean anything. And probably because you don't factor in any penalties for TWFing at all.

For example, both builds at level 1 have the same Str, the same BAB, and the same to hit, but one of them should be taking a minus 2 to his attacks. Of course if you don't factor that in, it looks better.

Also, I find it comical that they both have AC 34 at level 20, because it means that they actually wasted money on AC without doing anything, since even primarily caster CR 20s have hit that on a 2.
Ah, I thought I remembered THF being better than TWF. I checked back with the original program and THF did come out ahead. That image I uploaded 3 years ago has an error that I must not have caught. As for the rest, you made it up. You're free to post a core build w/o a shield if you want a duel and show something, otherwise I call nitpicking.

OP: Subtract 2 from the AB in the TWF build for full attacks. You can try to figure out the gear from the stuff to the left to double check for mistakes. At higher levels the extra attack comes from boots of speed. Otherwise the builds should be ready to use. The uploaded images are a couple versions behind my latest program. I'll upload more up to date ones when I get around to it / feel like it.

Keld Denar
2009-01-12, 10:01 PM
So, wait...what source material are we allowed? I have an idea coming together for about 10th level, if you are interested. I'll put some work on it tonight. Already have the melee and wizard slots pretty well together. I'm thinking a Daring Outlaw or Bard + Cleric for the last 2. We'll see.

Oh, is Tome of Battle allowed?

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 10:03 PM
It says in the rules - Complete series, PHB II, core rules, XPH.

I'd prefer no ToB, because I'm not familiar enough with it to run playtesting using it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-12, 10:12 PM
Level 5 Party

Primary Attacker: Human Ranger1/PsiWar4
Feats: EWP: Spiked Chain, Track (Ranger Bonus), Combat Expertise (Human Bonus), Improved Trip (PsiWar bonus), Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
Powers of note: Expansion, Force Screen, Psionic Lion's Charge

Tactics: He's a battlefield control damage dealer. Against humanoids, he's a serious threat. Against anything else, he's a moderate threat. Odds are he can smack something before it can get past him. He's not too powerful now, but he's gearing up for some of his more impressive combos later on

Primary Support Character: Human Cleric 5 (PhB II variant: Spontanious Domain: Healing)
Feats: Reach Spell, Chain Spell
Yes, he's a standard healbot for now. Nothing too powerful, and he can't use his metamagic feats right now anyways. For now.

Skillmonkey: Strongheart Halfling Rogue1/Swordsage1/Rogue3
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse
Tactics: He uses Island of Blades stance to generate more flanking opportunities with the tank, and to qualify for Shadow Blade, which lets him use his short swords with his dex to damage rather than his strength, and Weapon Finesse, which lets him use his dex to attack, making Str a complete dump stat.

Primary Arcane Conjurer (PhP II variant, dump familiar for minor teleporting; banning Evocation and Enchantment) 5
Feats: Empower Spell, Eschew Materials
Other than Empowered Magic Missile, his feats aren't too impressive... yet.

Same party at level 10

Primary Attacker: Ranger1/PsiWar4/Slayer5
Feats: EWP: Spiked Chain, Track (Ranger Bonus), Combat Expertise (Human Bonus), Improved Trip (PsiWar bonus), Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper
Powers of note: Expansion, Force Screen, Psionic Lion's Charge

Tactics: Now he's getting a lot nastier, and has Pounce (and the PP to actually use it). Shock Trooper + Pounce is going to be his first-round attack, to tie up opponents so they can't go after the squishy guys.

Primary Support: Human Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 4
Feats: Reach Spell, Chain Spell, DMM Chain Spell, Extra Turning
Uses DMM Chain Spell to be able to multi-buff, with lots of extra turn attempts to fuel it. Can also be used to quickly and effectively drop things like Death Ward or Freedom of Movement on the whole party if opponent is likely to use tactics these are necessary to counter. Standard is DMM Chain GMW (3rd level slot) to buff the tank's weapon, the rogue's two weapons, and his own.

Skillmonkey: Strongheart Halfling Rogue1/Swordsage1/Rogue5/Nightsong Enforcer2/Swordsage1
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Tactics: Now he's getting dangerous. If he can flank with the Tank, he can switch to Assassin's Stance now. Continuing with Nightsong Enforcer gives him some very useful party abilities, full attack, and more sneak attack. He also gets Pouncing Strike, which means he can make a full attack on the surprise round in Assassin's Stance, for lots of damage.

Arcanist: Primary Arcane Conjurer (PhP II variant, dump familiar for minor teleporting; banning Evocation and Enchantment) 5/whatever full spellcasting PrC5
Feats: Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Quicken Spell, silent spell

Tactics: Empowered Enervation is within his reach next level. Silent DimDoor is already within his grasp. Lots of battlefield control with Cloudkill, Solid Fog, and Stinking Cloud all being within his specialization. Sonic Orb is also in his repitoire, just in case something really does need more damage.

Same party at level 15

Primary Attacker: Ranger1/PsiWar4/Slayer 10
Chains Fall, Everyone Dies. He's got Leap Attack, in addition to the above. He can manifest Expansion as a swift action, or he can do it two size categories. He could easily be hitting for over 100 damage at this point. Even more important, he can trip just about anything he wants to, stable or not, which means free attacks from him and free sneak attacks from the rogue.

Primary Support: Cleric6/RSoP9
Now has DMM Reach spell as well. Everyone gets, at the beginning of the day, DMM Chain GMW and DMM Reach DMM Chain Magic Vestments, which will last all day long. He's got spontanious Heal spells, which he can DMM Chain if he wants to. This makes the party almost unkillable, because unless you One Hit KO someone, he's going to be back to full the next round, even against AE damage.

Skillmonkey: Strongheart Halfling Rogue1/Swordsage1/Rogue5/Nightsong Enforcer2/Swordsage1/Nightsong Enforcer5
Now he picked up Craven, and Superior TWF, as well as Wands of Golembane/Gravebane. Unless it's an ooze, has Improved Uncanny Dodge, or something really wierd, it's in for a world of pain. He can get the Tank to flank for him, using Island of Blades if necessary, or Assassin's Stance if not. If the Tank is not available to flank it, odds are he can probably generate methods to sneak attack anyways, although he may need to get more creative (begging an Improved Invisibility from the Wizard, for example)

Arcanist: Wiz5/MotAO5/War Weaver5
What buffs the Cleric hasn't dropped on the party, he can. Plus Haste. Plus any given battlefield control spell of choice. Let's face it, he's all but Batman without the Gouda.

afroakuma
2009-01-12, 10:18 PM
Very useful. Of course, I'll have to go assemble these myself... :smallfrown: but quite a diverse selection.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-12, 10:51 PM
Use a party of 2 or 3 Druids and 1 or 2 Beguilers to fill all the necessary roles:

Skillmonkey/Support/Caster: Grey Elf, Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler+, Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 (32 points, level-up Int), Versatile Spellcaster (RotD), Arcane Disciple: Travel, Mindsight (LoM), nothing after that really matters but maybe (Greater) Spell Focus for Illusion or Enchantment, (Greater) Spell Penetration, and/or item creation or metamagic feats. Take (Greater) Shadow Evocation/Conjuration for Advanced Learning. Metamagic Rods could be useful, wands/scrolls of unavailable spells with UMD is preferred. Mithril Breastplate, Mithril Buckler, Ring of Protection, Cloak of Resistance, Headband of Int, Gloves of Dex, and a masterwork longbow with a stack of +1 Spell Storing arrows. The Raiment of the Four set is good for any character to have.

Support/Caster/Attacker: Gnome (ideally a Race of Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Dragonborn of Bahamut), single-classed Druid. Str 6, Dex 12 (10), Con 18 (22), Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 8 (32 points, level-up Wis), Companion Spellbond (PH2), Natural Bond (CV), Natural Spell, nothing else matters but maybe Quicken Spell, Magic of the Land (RotW), and/or Augment Healing. Get a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3), Natural Bond negates the "Level -3" penalty, give it Virulent Poison (SS), Ability Focus: Poison, and maybe Power Attack and Leap Attack.

Get Lesser Rods of Extend, a Monk's Belt, Periapt of Wis, Armbands of Might (animal companion), a few Lesser Strands of Prayer Beads, and eventually a standard Rod of Extend and two 6th level Pearls of Power, and a Standard Rod of Empower and two more 6th level Pearls of Power. Prepare Enrage Animal, Longstrider, Entangle, Creeping Cold, Barkskin, Splinterbolt, Greater Magic Fang, etc. Daily buffs would include (Extended) Longstrider, (E) Greater Magic Fang (+1 All), and once you have a few 6th level spells/day and some Pearls of Power put (E) Superior Resistance and (E) Energy Immunity x5 on yourself (shared), casting only three of those six each day since each lasts 48 hrs extended. Creeping Cold is best cast Extended via a Lesser Metamagic Rod, for 21d6 cold damage over 6 rounds at level 3.

Once you get the Rod of Empower and Pearls of Power you can cast Empowered Fire Seeds three times, creating 24 berry bombs which deals a total of (24d8+(24*CL))*1.5, averaging 162+(36*CL) damage, with twenty-four separate saves, each successful save taking off 1/48th the damage. At level 11 that deals an average of 558 damage in a 5' radius, just designate the command word as an eagle screech and drop the pouch full of berries from above in (Dire) Eagle form, or summon a small fire elemental to carry them into a group of opponents.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 12:27 AM
Ah, I thought I remembered THF being better than TWF. I checked back with the original program and THF did come out ahead. That image I uploaded 3 years ago has an error that I must not have caught. As for the rest, you made it up.

So for "the rest" that I made up, you mean the fact that they 34 AC? The fact that that can easily be hit? The fact that your "ratings" don't mean anything to anyone but you because we seriously have no idea what that is?

As for your duel obsession: I notice Barbarian levels, does that mean any Class? Only full BAB ones? What?

Cause if it's straight fighter only, I've got a build, depending on level, and if any full BAB, well then I'll have to compare that build to a Straight Barbarian. And of course, for added fun, my Core Rogues can be pretty ridic. Could probably beat any core +0 LA fighter type without a heavy shield of I picked fortification for this duel just to be a ****.

Adumbration
2009-01-13, 12:39 AM
My submission for this - this was created specifically for a one-man party test, but it never came to be, so feel free to use it.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=16664

sonofzeal
2009-01-13, 01:48 AM
My vote for Support: Kale

At ECL 10 (nice and average), Kale is a multiclassed Marshal/Bard/Divine.Mind who has achieved Sainthood (LA+2 acquired template, but not a race so it's okay by the rules), and is optimized for support. See, the problem I have with most support characters is that, by the time their buff routine is finished, the fight is practically over. Kale takes a different approach - rather than getting powerful standard-action buffs, he goes for swift, immediate, or passive buffs that apply to the whole team in the first round. On top of that, he's also got a beefed up Bardic Music routine for a seriously dangerous Inspire Courage. And he's also a respectable Diplomancer, though not really optimized for this roll.


Human Marshal 2 / Bard 1 / Divine Mind 5 / Saint 2
Important Feats: Word of Creation, Song of the Heart, Gift of Grace

Gear
Admiral's Bicorn
Regalia of the Hero
Extra Music

Buffs
Motivate Dexterity (+7 to dex-based skill checks and initiative; Swift, permanent, 60')

Resilient Troops (+1 saving throws; swift, permanent, 60')

Protective Aura (+4 AC vs evil, +4 saves vs evil, blocks any lvl3 or lower spell cast inward but not outward; free, permanent, 20')

Psychic Aura (+2 AC, DR 2/-; free, permanent, 15')

Admiral's Bicorn (+2 to all skills, saves and attack roll; no action, permanent, 100')

Bardic Music via Masterwork Trumpet (+2 atk / +3 damage, 3/day boosted to +3/+4 by Regalia, 1/day doubled to +4/+6 or +6/+8 by Word of Creation [damage quickly healed by Fast Healing from Saint]; standard, playing duration + 1 round, 100')

Regalia of the Hero
Badge (+2 on saves vs charm/fear OR +1 bardic music; immediate, 1 round, 60', 3/day)
Helm (+2 damage vs flanked enemies OR +1 Motivate Dexterity; swift, 10 rounds, 60', 3/day)
Horn (DR 5/-; standard, 5 rounds, 30', 2/day)
Set bonuses
- (+5 on a single attack, skill, or save; immediate, 100', 1/day)
- (grant immediate move action; standard, 100', 1/day)

Draz74
2009-01-13, 03:11 AM
Here you go, ECL 12. Mine, you don't have to assemble. But I am using Tome of Battle -- apologies, I didn't know you didn't want it. At least it's just a Warblade, so the rules are free online. :smallsmile: And feel free to ask any questions.

We have:

Kkekhif, Raptoran Warblade ("primary attacker")
Grivvle, Whisper Gnome Factotum ("skillmonkey")
Op-Tuun, Azurin Ardent ("primary supporter")
Zar-Lan, Human Dragonfire Adept ("caster")

This party is designed to work together, though, and they share roles around a lot. (For example, in some situations Grivvle is a better healer than Op-Tuun.)

Stat block for Kkekhif:

Kkekhif
NG Medium Humanoid (raptoran)
Raptoran Warblade 12
- - - - - -
Str 21 (+5); Dex 18 (+4); Con 14 (+2); Int 12 (+1); Wis 10 (+0); Cha 10 (+0)
Init +6; Fort +12; Ref +11; Will +6 (+8 with Bolstering Voice stance)
HP 102 (12d12+24); AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 19; BAB +12/+7/+2; Speed 30, Fly 40 (good maneuverability)
Languages: Raptoran, Common, Auran
- - - - - -
Features: flight (including glide, dive); low-light vision; wing-aided movement (+10 Jump); +1 Climb, Spot; unerring direction.
Weapon aptitude; improved uncanny dodge; proficient with simple and martial melee weapons, shields, and light and medium armor.
Battle clarity (Int to Ref saves); Battle Ardor (Int to confirm crits); Battle Cunning (Int to damage vs. flat-footed or flanked); Battle Skill (Int to oppose trip, bull rush, etc.).
- - - - - -
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Flight, Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior, Robilar's Gambit
- - - - - -
Skills
9 Tumble (+17); 15 Jump (+32); 5 Balance (+11); 15 Diplomacy (+17); 15 Intimidate (+15); 3 Martial Lore (+4); 5 Knowledge (nobility and royalty)(+6); 3 Knowledge (history)(+4); 0 Climb (+6); 0 Spot (+3); 0 Listen (+2)
Skill Tricks: Never Outnumbered, Extreme Leap
Armor Check Penalty: 0
- - - - - -
Combat
Melee Quarterstaff +18/+13/+8 (1d6+8)
TWF Quarterstaff +16/+11/+6 (1d6+6), Quarterstaff +16 (1d6+2)
Thrown Shortspear +16/+11/+6 (1d6+5), range increment 20 feet
- - - - - -
Equipment: Healing Belt of Giant Strength +4, Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind, Ring of Communication with Deflection +1, Novice Crown of White Ravens, Amulet of Health +2, +1 Transmuting/+1 Defending Quarterstaff, Mithral Shirt +3, Heward's Handy Haversack, Steadfast Boots/Acrobat Boots, Piercer Cloak with Resistance +2, Vest of Natural Armor +1, Lesser Crystal of Aquatic Action, Lesser Rubicund Frenzy, shortspear [x5], Bracers of Dexterity +2, Lesser Revelation Crystal, Talisman of the Disk, general mundane equipment (45 gp)
- - - - - -
Initiator Level 12; Maneuvers Readied: 5
Stances Known: Bolstering Voice (WR 1), Punishing Stance (IH 1), Dancing Blade Form (IH 5)
Maneuvers Known:
Diamond Mind: Emerald Razor (L2), Rapid Counter (L4), Moment of Alacrity (L6)
Iron Heart: Wall of Blades (L2), Iron Heart Surge (L3)
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap (L1), Death from Above (L4), Dancing Mongoose (L5), Pouncing Charge (L5)
White Raven: White Raven Tactics (L3)

Streamlining Tome of Battle Stuff:

Stances are abilities that are constantly active, but only one at a time. A swift action is required to switch between them. Bolstering Voice gives +2 [morale] Will saves (+4 vs. fear effects); unlike the others, it affects the whole party. Punishing stance gives +1d6 melee damage, -2 AC. Dancing Blade Form gives +5-ft reach, but only on Kkekhif's turn (no AoOs).

For simplicity, you can assume that Kkekhif always readies the same combination of maneuvers:
Emerald Razor, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Dancing Mongoose, Pouncing Charge.

Emerald Razor makes one attack a touch attack as a standard action. I recommend full Power Attack when using it. :smallwink:

Wall of Blades lets Kkekhif oppose any attack roll that hits her (including rays) with an attack roll of her own as an immediate action. If she succeeds, the attack misses.

Iron Heart Surge lets her end pretty much any debuff or battlefield control effect on her, as a standard action.

Dancing Mongoose gives her one extra attack with each end of her quarterstaff. It is a swift action to activate and only lasts for the one round when it is used (and only works if she full attacks).

Pouncing Charge is a full-round action that lets Kkekhif pounce. Big surprise.

Each of these five maneuvers is 1/encounter, but they can also be recharged. Recharging is a swift action, which must be followed by either a non-ToB-maneuver attack, or by taking a standard action to do nothing. (The former is, of course, drastically preferable, especially if it's part of a good old-fashioned full attack, no ToB required.)

The only other ToB thing you need to worry about is Stormguard Warrior. Here's the important highlights:

Any attack you don't think you'll hit (e.g. the final iterative of every full attack, in general), you can make a touch attack instead. If it succeeds, it deals no damage, but you do +5 damage to that target with every attack in the next round.

Any time you can make an AoO (including AoO's due to Robilar's Gambit), you can give up the opportunity. If you do, you gain +4 attack/damage against that target on the next round. If you give up multiple AoO's, this bonus stacks.

Oh yeah, one more tricky little thing. Whenever Kkekhif is in a stance other than Bolstering Voice, adjacent allies gain +2 [morale] to all saves. This would make Bolstering Voice pretty worthless, if the party stayed in a packed little group. Which they won't. (This bonus is the effect of the Ironheart Aura feat.)

If you want to know what the other maneuvers do, so you have more to keep track of :smallwink:, I'll explain them too.

Strategy:

This build is all about being good at switching between full attacks and single attacks. That's ... the whole point of using a quarterstaff. (Besides style.) So if you can get a full attack, including by using Pouncing Charge, go for it. Turn on as many damage-boosting effects as you can first, like Punishing Stance.

If, however, you can't manage a full attack, just do some Power Attacking instead. Preferably with Emerald Razor.

Fly a lot. It's fun, and it's something the warrior types don't usually get to enjoy. :smallcool: And it makes it really easy to use the Piercer Cloak (MIC).

This build is a lot better at offense than defense. Don't worry if you're taking damage -- that just makes your Rubicund Frenzy kick in sooner. And Op-Tuun can heal you up after the battle. Fight a bit recklessly.

If you're fighting lots of weak enemies, Intimidate is great crowd control. One standard action to attempt to Demoralize them all. Make sure to combine this with Zar-Lan's Terrifying Roar invocation, so that foes will run away if they fail to either make their Will save or to resist the Intimidate.


Stat block for Grivvle:

Grivvle
LG Small Humanoid (gnome)
Whisper Gnome Factotum 12
Deity: Ehlonna
- - - - - -
Str 12 (+1); Dex 20 (+5); Con 10 (+0); Int 23 (+6); Wis 12 (+1); Cha 10 (+0)
Init +13; Fort +5; Ref +14; Will +6
HP 57 (12d8); AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 18; BAB +9/+4; Speed 30
Languages: Gnome, Common, Draconic, Dwarf, Goblin
- - - - - -
Features: small size; low-light vision; darkvision 60 ft; weapon familiarity (gnome hooked hammer); attack +1 vs. kobolds, goblinoids; AC +4 [dodge] vs. giants; +4 Hide, Move Silently; +2 Listen, Spot; spell-like abilities (CL 1, 1/day: silence centered on self, ghost sound, mage hand, message).
Inspiration; trapfinding; arcane dilettante; brains over brawn; opportunistic piety (5/day, heal 30 hp); proficient with simple and martial weapons, shields, and light armor.
Cunning insight; cunning knowledge; cunning defense; cunning strike; cunning surge; cunning breach.
- - - - - -
Feats: Track, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Darkstalker, Woodland Archer
- - - - - -
Skills
15 Listen (+20); 15 Spot (+20); 12 Disable Device (+20); 12 Search (+18); 8 Hide (+27); 8 Move Silently (+28); 8 Tumble (+19); 7 Survival (+8)(+10 follow tracks); 5 Heal (+8); 5 Balance (+18); 2 Concentration (+2); 2 Knowledge (nature)(+10); 1 Appraise (+7); 1 Autohypnosis (+2); 1 Bluff (+1); 1 Climb (+10); 1 Craft (bowmaking)(+7); 1 Craft (poisonmaking)(+7); 1 Craft (trapmaking)(+7); 1 Craft (weaponsmithing)(+7); 1 Decipher Script (+7); 1 Disguise (+1); 1 Escape Artist (+11); 1 Forgery (+7); 1 Gather Information (+1); 1 Handle Animal (+1); 1 Intimidtate (+1); 1 Jump (+14); 1 Knowledge (geography)(+7); 1 Knowledge (local)(+7); 1 Knowledge (religion)(+7); 1 Open Lock (+12); 1 Perform (oratory)(+1); 1 Perform (wind instruments)(+3); 1 Profession (clerk)(+2); 1 Profession (sailor)(+2); 1 Ride (+12); 1 Sense Motive (+2); 1 Sleight of Hand (+12); 1 Use Rope (+12)
Skill Tricks: Healing Hands, Listen to This, Clarity of Vision, Spot the Weak Point, Point it Out
Armor Check Penalty: 0
- - - - - -
Combat
Ranged Longbow +16/+11 (1d6+2+1d6 acid / x3), range increment 110 feet
Rapid Shot Longbow +14/+14/+9 (1d6+2+1d6 acid / x3), range increment 110 feet
Melee Kukri +11/+6 (1d3+1 / 18-20)
Melee Pick +11/+6 (1d4+1 / x4)
- - - - - -
Equipment: +1 Precise Bow of the Wintermoon, Ehlonna's Quiver, Darkwood Buckler +1, masterwork kukri, masterwork heavy war pick, Dwarvencraft Mithralmist Shirt, Gloves of Dexterity +4, Third Eye of Intelligence +4, Silkslick Belt/Belt of Healing with Strength +2, Vest of Resistance +1, Jumping Caltrops, Heward's Handy Haversack, Caduceus Bracers, Ring of the Darkhidden, Boots of Elvenkind/Boots of Agile Leaping, elvencraft darkwood composite longbow, Dark Lantern, Ring of Communication, Thorn Pouch, Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection, Lesser Crystal of Lifekeeping, Lesser Crystal of Aquatic Action, Least Crystal of Return, Lesser Crystal of Acid Assault, Rod of Viscid Globs, Rope of Stone, masterwork thieves' tools, climber's kit, healer's kit, 60 arrows (1 adamantine, 4 blunt, 20 cold iron, 5 silver, 10 swiftwing, 20 serpentstongue, 10 normal), Quaal's Anchor Token, antitoxin, wooden holy symbol [x2], dagger [x2], spell component pouch [x2], 100-ft silk rope, tindertwig [x2], lots more mundane equipment (about 100 gp)
- - - - - -
Inspiration Points: 6/encounter
Arcane Dilettante Spells/Day: 1 of up to 4th level, 4 of up to 3rd level; Arcane Caster Level 12
Typical SLAs prepared: Mass Resist Energy, Heroics, Haste, Fly, Bite of the Wererat

Strategy:

Roleplaying-wise, this guy is a Ranger, not a Factotum. He gives Ehlonna the credit for anything cool he does, and has a typical Ranger grim-and-down-to-earth attitude.

You might think this guy's defense is crap. His Fort/Will saves and his HP sure aren't impressive. His AC is ok, especially against ranged attacks (+3 from Crystal of Arrow Deflection), which are the only kind he wants targeting him, being an archer and all. He can burn precious Inspiration to boost his saves or AC if he gets surprised by a nasty attack -- but his real defense is his Hide and Move Silently skills. If he's drawing too much attention from the baddies, it's time to Hide and let the baddies get distracted by the rest of the party instead. Mithralmist Shirt is a great way to suddenly have concealment, 7/day. Next level he'll be able to afford a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis and hide even while being observed.

That's all assuming you even need to fight anything. This guy prefers to sneak past baddies without them ever knowing he was there to fight. The best defense is oblivion. Walk around with a Dark Lantern lit, especially around races with Darkvision who will switch to using that, not bothering to get annoyed with the darkness, who won't be able to see you with your Ring of the Darkhidden. Leave the rest of the party behind if necessary, while you scout things out -- that's why you all have Rings of Communication.

Whenever he's not getting targeted, his strategy in battle is simple. Use battlefield control effects (from Thorn Pouch or Rod of Viscid Globs or Jumping Caltrops), or shoot things and do lots of damage (don't forget the cool Woodland Archer bonuses). Or cast Haste.

Heroics lasts for two hours. That's two hours per day that Grivvle can have Manyshot, or Improved Critical (longbow), or whatever other Fighter feat you feel like being creative with. Manyshot makes it a lot more worthwhile to use Cunning Surge for an extra standard action (uses 3 inspiration). Improved Critical makes it more worthwhile to use Cunning Insight to add INT to damage (or triple INT, on a critical!). Hopefully you can use most of your Inspiration in major battles for these effects, rather than spellcasting or defenses.

Oh yeah, that latter strategy is also the basis for some good assassination. Sneak up on a target when (s)he's helpless (they all have to sleep sometime!). Then, coup-de-grace with that Pick, and add quadruple INT to the damage using Cunning Insight.

Bite of the Wererat is in case you get cornered into melee. Mass Resist Energy is a whole-party saver. As far as spellcasting goes, don't forget about the racial Silence SLA, especially when facing enemy spellcasters.

In typical Factotum form, Grivvle has a 1 rank in a zillion skills. So he can be quite effective (or extremely effective, on Dex-based skills) at each of them, 1/day. That's plenty, in many cases.

Between the Heal skill (with Cunning Knowledge 1/day!), the Healing Hands skill trick, a Healing Belt, 150 hp/day total of Opportunistic Piety, and the ability to cure fatigue/sickened/ability damage/dazed via Caduceus Bracers, Grivvle is a pretty great secondary party healer.


Stat block for Op-Tuun:

Op-Tuun Wyrrkur
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Azurin Ardent 12
- - - - - -
Str 18 (+4); Dex 10 (+0); Con 16 (+3); Int 10 (+0); Wis 23 (+6); Cha 10 (+0)
Init +2; Fort +13 (+14 vs. death/negative energy); Ref +6; Will +16
HP 80 (12d6+36); AC 26, touch 11, flat-footed 26; BAB +9/+4; Speed 20 (30 if psionically focused)
Languages: Common
- - - - - -
Features: 1 essentia (racial bonus); proficient with simple weapons, shields, and all armor.
Primary Mantle: Freedom (+10 speed while focused; expend focus to add +ML to resist or escape grapple).
Primary Mantle: Physical Power (free action, expend focus to add +2 to Str, Dex, or Con for 1 round).
Fate Mantle (1/day expend focus to add level to any d20 roll)
Magic Mantle (treat magic and psionics as identical; UMD/UPD is a class skill)
Mental Power Mantle (determine bonus PP as if Wisdom were 2 higher)
- - - - - -
Feats: Shape Soulmeld (lifebond vestment), Hidden Talent, Linked Power, Psionic Meditation, Psycarnum Infusion, Tap Mantle (life)
- - - - - -
Skills
15 Concentration (+18); 13 Use Psionic Device (+13); 1 Autohypnosis (+7); 1 Profession (philosopher)(+7); 0 Listen (+8); 0 Spot (+8)
Armor Check Penalty: -6
- - - - - -
Combat
Melee Sickle +14/+9 (1d6+5)
Ranged Crossbow +9/+4 (1d8 / 19-20), range increment 80 feet
- - - - - -
Equipment: (Lifebond Vestments soulmeld), Helm of Wisdom +4, Reach Gauntlets of Strength +4, Dispelling Cord with Constitution +2, Deep Crystal +1 Whirling Sickle with wand chamber, Darkwood Heavy Shield +2 with wand chamber, Full Plate +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Heward's Handy Haversack, Ring of Communication, Healing Belt, Novice Devoted Spirit Amulet/Amulet of Retributive Healing with Natural Armor +1, Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind with Deflection +1, Greatreach Bracers, Restful Crystal, Lesser Crystal of Aquatic Action, Least Crystal of Lifekeeping, Hammersphere, Wand of Guidance, Wand of Lesser Vigor, Eternal Wand of Benign Transposition, Scroll of Neutralize Poison [x2], Scroll of Status, Scroll of Remove Paralysis, Power Stone of Psionic Divination, light crossbow, crossbow bolts [x20], explorer's outfit, dagger, general mundane equipment (about 150 gp).
- - - - - -
Manifester Level 12; PP/Day: 170 (126 base +42 Wis +2 feat)
Powers Known:
Level 1: Adrenaline Boost, Defensive Precognition, Dimension Hop, Metaphysical Weapon, Prevenom Weapon, Vigor
Level 2: Animal Affinity, Clairvoyant Sense, Hustle
Level 3: Dispel Psionics
Level 4: Psionic Fly
Level 5: Psionic Freedom of Movement, Psionic Teleport
Level 6: Psionic Restoration

Strategy:

Try to start off each battle with Prevenom Weapon and Vigor already manifested. They both last 12 minutes, and will help you start things off much more effectively. Plus, Prevenom Weapon is only 1 PP. 140 HP is a lot more impressive than 80, and if you don't end up using all of your Temporary HP to soak damage, you can use them to heal your allies instead.

Basically, you're playing Op-Tuun right if you're using all of your swift/immediate actions, and wishing you had a lot more. Use them for:

- the Shield Block maneuver, courtesy of your Amulet (1/encounter, immediate action, add +8 to adjacent ally's AC vs. one attack)
- activating Reach Gauntlets or Greatreach Bracers
- Hustle, so you can move and still full attack
- Hustle, to regain psionic focus
- Adrenaline Boost, giving yourself +2 Str/Dex for one round
- KEY: Linked Power. Expend psionic focus and do any of the previous three options, and spend some extra PP, and a self-buff will appear on you one round later without spending any actions manifesting it.

Running out of Temporary HP? Get 55 more with Linked Vigor and 11 PP.
Stuck in a nasty battlefield control effect? Link FoM with 9 PP.
Defenses not good enough? Gain +4 AC/saves with a Linked Defensive Precognition and 10 PP.

In this way, you should almost never have to actually sacrifice standard or full-attack actions to buff yourself in-combat.

With the Ardent's PP progression, Op-Tuun doesn't have to be stingy with his psionic powers like a Psychic Warrior.

His round-to-round offense isn't impressive, though. You need to spice it up:
- Prevenom, as discussed earlier, is great against most living opponents
- Ring of the Diamond Mind lets you, 1/encounter as a standard action, replace normal melee damage with a Concentration check result
- 1/day, activate the Hammersphere as a standard action and let it act as a 5th party member for 7 rounds
- 3/day, hit up to 48 squares of monsters with Op-Tuun's attack! Use Greatreach Bracers and then the Whirling ability of his sickle.

Still, Op-Tuun is probably the least impressive of these characters in a fight. Hopefully he makes up for it outside of combat:

- Teleporting!
- Making everyone's weapons +3 for the day every morning (9 PP each; not included in stat blocks)
- spamming Clairvoyant Sense for great information gathering
- slow but incredibly efficient healing

The latter is a very specific combo: Vigor (2 or 2.2 PP) to soak up the self-damage; expend psionic focus to activate Psycarnum Infusion; heal ally (20 HP and deal 10 damage to self, or 21 HP and deal 11 damage to self); concentrate to regain psionic focus. Wash, rinse, and repeat -- though it only works once on each ally each hour. Instead of the 15-minute work day, this group might take a lot of 1-hour breaks in between battles. (Or I guess they could use their Wands of Lesser Vigor like everyone else.)


Stat block for Zar-Lan:

Zar-Lan Wyrrkur
CG Medium Humanoid (human, dragonblood)
Human Dragonfire Adept 12
- - - - - -
Str 10 (+0); Dex 12 (+1); Con 23 (+6); Int 12 (+1); Wis 10 (+0); Cha 18 (+4)
Init +3; Fort +16; Ref +7; Will +10
HP 130 (12d8+73); AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 21; BAB +6/+1; Speed 30, Fly 30 (good maneuverability)
Languages: Common, Draconic
- - - - - -
Features: invocations; breath weapon at will; scales +3; dragonkin (+4 Diplomacy vs. dragons, resist frightful presence); DR 2/magic; proficient with simple weapons.
- - - - - -
Feats: Dragontouched, Entangling Exhalation, Ability Focus (breath weapon), Draconic Aura (senses)(gives whole party +2 Spot/Listen/initiative), Extra Invocation [x3]
- - - - - -
Skills
15 Concentration (+21); 15 Bluff (+28); 15 Sense Motive (+15); 15 Spellcraft (+18); 6 Knowledge (arcana)(+13); 5 Knowledge (the planes)(+12); 10 Use Magic Device (+17); 5 Diplomacy (+22); 0 Intimidate (+15); 0 Listen (+3); 0 Spot (+3)
Skill Tricks: Social Recovery, Collector of Stories
Armor Check Penalty: 0
- - - - - -
Combat
Melee Longspear +7/+2 (1d8+1+1d4 sonic+1 fire / x3), 10-ft reach
- - - - - -
Equipment: Healing Belt/Dragon Spirit Cincture with +4 Constitution, +1 Screaming Longspear with wand chamber, Least Crystal of Fire Assault, Cloak of Elemental Protection with Charisma +4, Shiftweave with Resistance +2, Twilight +1 Mithral Shirt, Dwarvencraft Mithral Buckler +2, Circlet of Persuasion/Hat of Disguise, Steadfast Boots, Heward's Handy Haversack, Ring of Communication, wand bracer, Tome of Worldly Memory, Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection, Eternal Wand of Heroics, Eternal Wand of Silent Image, Eternal Wand of Enlarge Person, Wand of Comprehend Languages, Eternal Wand of Mending, Wand of Protection from Evil, Wand of Lesser Vigor, everburning torch, courtier's outfit with jewelry, disguise kit, mundane equipment (120 gp)
- - - - - -
Breath Weapon: 60-foot line or 30-foot cone; 7d6 fire damage (Ref DC 25 half).
Breath Effects:
Lightning Breath: 60-foot line; 7d6 electricity damage (Ref DC 24 half).
Slow Breath: 30-foot cone; targets slowed (as spell) for 2 rounds (Fort DC 24 for half duration).
Thunder Breath: 30-foot cone; 7d6 sonic damage (Fort DC 25 half).
Enduring Breath: 60-foot line or 30-foot cone; 7d6 fire damage (Ref DC 25 half); half of damage repeats 1 round later.
- - - - - -
Arcane Spell Failure 0%; Invocation Caster Level 12
Invocations Known:
Least: Aquatic Adaptation, Beguiling Influence, Draconic Knowledge, Endure Exposure, Magic Insight
Lesser: Draconic Flight, Voracious Dispelling
Greater: Terrifying Roar (Will DC 19 partial)

Strategy:

Um, probably the simplest and most effective of the four.

Blast stuff with Enduring Breath every odd-numbered round, and Slow Breath every even-numbered round.

Mix in Thunder Breath if some foes might be fire-resistant (or, Bahamut forbit, have Evasion!). Mix in Terrifying Roar if you think Will is your foes' weakest save, or if you're trying to combo with Kkekhif's Intimidate, or if you are in danger of personally getting attacked.

Mix in Entangling Exhalation with the first Enduring/Thunder breath of the combat, plus anytime you feel like too many opponents have gotten un-entangled. Don't worry about doing reduced damage -- damage is the warblade's and archer's job.

Zar-Lan protects her allies from all her breath weapons every morning, of course, using Endure Exposure. No worries about friendly fire.

24-hour flight. Awesomely low-stress. AC improves by +3 vs. ranged attacks. Stay away from melee attacks -- but don't be afraid to attract attention; you've got more HP than anyone else in the party. :smallconfused:

Spice up the Warblade or Ardent 2/day for half an hour with a Heroics wand. Be creative -- but not TOO creative -- about what feat to give them.

Out of combat, make yourself terribly useful with illusion wands, great Knowledges (you have +7 to all unlisted Knowledge checks), and ridiculously good social skills, especially Bluff. Lie all the time, just because you can get away with it.

The whole party has items to make them functional if they have to venture underwater a bit, but Zar-Lan thrives there. She'll go swimming as often as she can get away with -- maybe breathe on enemies from underwater to drive them bonkers.

Use her spear only for AoO's, of course -- or with Steadfast Boots for a free double-damage attack anytime someone charges her. Voracious Dispelling isn't so useful at this level, with a caster level of only 10; it'll get traded out next level in favor of Voidsense.

... And since I've now explained all of the other Invocations, I'll also brag about constant Detect Magic-with-Identify-built-in. w00t.


At this point, I suppose comments from anyone about these builds are welcome.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-13, 03:39 AM
I just wish to point out that the further one diverges from the core monsters the more powerful monsters become for their CR. Therefore what is being suggested here is perfectly reasonable. Whether a fighter can deal 300 damage in a round or not is fairly irrelevant since that's more than a little over optimized.


To the uber-optimizers: If all else fails take a build that is meant for flavor that you tweaked a bit but not into the realm of "**** I broke a mountain"

Keld Denar
2009-01-13, 03:51 AM
To the uber-optimizers: If all else fails take a build that is meant for flavor that you tweaked a bit but not into the realm of "**** I broke a mountain"

All builds are built for flavor. No reason not to be effective though. Granted, "breaking the mountain" would be bad, but no point in intentionally gimping yourself in the name of flavor. Don't fall for Stormwind's Fallacy, it is, as they say on the internet, a trap.

ericgrau
2009-01-13, 07:05 AM
So for "the rest" that I made up, you mean the fact that they 34 AC? The fact that that can easily be hit? The fact that your "ratings" don't mean anything to anyone but you because we seriously have no idea what that is?

As for your duel obsession: I notice Barbarian levels, does that mean any Class? Only full BAB ones? What?

Cause if it's straight fighter only, I've got a build, depending on level, and if any full BAB, well then I'll have to compare that build to a Straight Barbarian. And of course, for added fun, my Core Rogues can be pretty ridic. Could probably beat any core +0 LA fighter type without a heavy shield of I picked fortification for this duel just to be a ****.

Just pick a martial one and post; a barbarian or fighter it seems. We can do a single class if you prefer, though it shouldn't matter. FWIW I'll probably have an adamantine weapon and blind fight, though I'd prefer if we avoided silly ways of winning altogether and had a straight fight. Other than that no shield for you. PHB races, core only, standard WBL. No buffing round. Pick a level. There's too much crazy stuff that can come up at level 20, so how about 5, 10 or 15? Preferably start a new thread and PM me a link to it. Unless the OP wants to use these builds?

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 10:13 AM
Draz: How you stuck me with four classes I don't know, not to mention two systems I don't know, is flatly beyond me.

Well, your notes will help.

First combat: Draz's party vs. 2 Orange Slaadi

Draz74
2009-01-13, 12:08 PM
Heh. Good, I'm making you learn more about the game. :smallwink:

I assume Incarnum is the other system you don't know? (It better not be psionics!) Yeah, I had to learn about it just to make this character.

I thought learning about the Factotum was required on this Forum, though. :smallamused: The Giant having helped write Dungeonscape, and all.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 12:23 PM
I don't own a copy. :smallfrown:

And yes, incarnum was the other one. Took a moment to register that you'd used Complete Psionic, though. Now I have to go find it.

*sigh* this is gonna be a messy playtest.

I'll post the results when the battle ends.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 12:27 PM
It's your inventory blocks that really make me want to kill you, though. :smallannoyed:

Draz74
2009-01-13, 12:28 PM
I don't own a copy. :smallfrown:

Me neither. :smallfrown: But if your Google-fu is strong enough, you can learn everything important about the Factotum. Actually, that's what I did for Factotum, and Ardent, and my Incarnum "dip." (I've since gotten to look at some copies of these books to check that everything works, though I still don't own them.)

Feel free to shoot off questions about how anything works.


It's your inventory blocks that really make me want to kill you, though. :smallannoyed:

Didn't I already mention that was the part that made me want to kill myself, too? I hate the "Christmas Tree Effect." But I don't think it's possible to make optimized characters without loading them up with inventories like this, sadly.

I could try to categorize the equipment, if you want. Tell me what categories you'd like (e.g., "major in-combat uses," "static bonuses only," "major out-of-combat uses," "only once-in-a-while-stuff").

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 12:33 PM
I'd rather shoot off this question: the Factotum is in an open, fairly lit area, 75 ft. from two Large opponents. Your strategy suggests that he would prefer a battlefield control tactic. There is nowhere to hide and they have already seen the party.

Choice of action?

Draz74
2009-01-13, 12:45 PM
Nail them with Rod of Viscid Globs. Also, use a swift action to Mithralmist. Both so that other members of the party are more tempting targets than the Factotum (concealment), and so there will be a place to hide on the battlefield for the next one minute.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 12:47 PM
Will do. Other than that, I think I can figure out how this will play out. I'll drop additional questions as needed.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 01:12 PM
Any discussion of unbalanced arcane PrCs has always brought up IotSV, to my remembering. Incantatrix likewise.

What "good" PrCs are you referring to?

I wouldn't object to such a rogue; I'm curious as to how he can do all of that at 10th level, and what guarantees him SA.

And in every discussion IotSFV is shot down as not being unbalanced. It requires two largely useless feats, and it grants some defensive abilities that are pretty meh until you get reactive warding and double warding, and then, at level 18, you are almost as good as Core Wizard that casts Shapechange.

It's not particularly amazing, it's called unbalanced by the same people who call ToB unbalanced.

Oh, and the Core way for a Rogue to manage that is using tenth level special to grab Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, since he doesn't have to meet the pre-reqs, and then with a Ring of Blinking, and Rapid shot, he can throw acid flasks for 6d6 damage each as a flat-footed touch attack.

Depending on the interpretation of PTWFing, he either has 6 normally, and haste for 7, or 5 normally, and haste for 6.

He can manage something similar by using four feats, to get Rapid Shot and the regular TWFing tree, but it becomes harder (not impossible) to fit in the Pierce Magical Concealment feat that I love so much.

EDIT: Will work up a party, but you'll probably decide they are too optimized, since they use totally broken PrCs like something with full casting and minor benefits.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 01:30 PM
I'd prefer that you not prejudge my restrictiveness.

I've never seen an IotSV in play; I go by what I've been warned of. Every source warns me that an Incantatrix can exploit metamagic to throw spells of such ridiculous damage that she should be in a Final Fantasy game.

I don't see how you got an epic feat at 10th level, but otherwise it sounds interesting.

I don't mind full casting with benefits; indeed, I expect that for caster types. What I'm leery on are multi-hundred or thousand damage rounds, which definetely fall into over-optimized.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 01:35 PM
Combat ended.

Results:

2 Orange Slaadi dead

Kkekhif dead

Zar-Lan dead

Op-Tuun injured

Grivvle uninjured

Three lousy initiative rolls and some mind-affecting abilities brought down the warblade and dragonfire adept too quickly. Hideous laughter allowed the first slaad to pull off a few nasty full attacks. Op-Tuun gets credit for holding off the two of them while Grivvle closed. The factotum won this for you, hands down. The remaining slaad couldn't get to him in time and caught too many arrows to the face.

Eldariel
2009-01-13, 01:55 PM
That would mean an individual Orange Slaad would be CR 13-14. However, I suggest running it a few times; poor initiative rolls means that it could actually have been totally different with just bit better luck on PCs' part (4 characters means they've got a very good chance of having two go before Slaadi).

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 02:08 PM
I in fact did run it a second time.

Results:

2 Orange Slaadi dead.

Kkekhif dead.

Op-Tuun injured.

Zar-Lan injured.

Grivvle uninjured.

Kkekhif's Will save undid him again. Grivvle providing hidden support allowed Zar-Lan to pull off some brutal breath damage (she's a pest when flying. Neither slaad had the time to go chase her.) Op-Tuun chewed on a fairly strong lightning bolt; otherwise, he'd have been only slightly hurt.

Adumbration
2009-01-13, 02:18 PM
If you have the time, you could do future matches right here on the forums, in the roleplaying section. It would be a fun read, and would help us analyze stuff as well. The only downside is the 60 second limit between posts.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 02:24 PM
True. I actually like that idea better.

Any volunteers to join on the player side?

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 02:47 PM
Bob, Halfling Swordsage/Rogue/Barbarian/Shadowlord ("primary attacker" also, "skill monkey")
Jim, Lesser Air Gensai Beguiler ("skillmonkey" also, "caster")
Harold, Aisimar with bought off LA Cleric ("primary supporter" also "caster" also "primary attacker")
Bill, Gray Elf Wizard ("caster")

This party is a collection of powerful characters who could totally go it alone or join any other party. They don't really have a themed strategy.

These sheets take a long time to right up, so I'll be doing them a bit at a time.

Stat block for BoB:

Bob
NE Small Humanoid (Strongheart Halfling)
Halfling Rogue 1/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Rogue 2/Swordsage 3/Teflammer Shadowlord 4/Swordsage 1
- - - - - -
Str 10 (+0); Dex 24 (+7); Con 16 (+3); Int 14 (+2); Wis 16 (+3); Cha 8 (-1)
Init +9; Fort +18; Ref +23; Will +18
HP 88 (7d6+4d8+1d12+36); AC 26, touch 18, flat-footed 19; BAB +9/+4; Speed 30,
Languages: Common, Halfling, Infernal, Abyssal
- - - - - -
Features: Shadowsight, Shadow Jump, Shadow Blur, Shadow Pounce, Shadow Walk 1/day, Whirling Frenzy, +5d6 SA, Evasion, Wis AC,
- - - - - -
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Desert Wind Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade, Extra Rage, Extend Rage.
- - - - - -
Skills
15 Tumble (+22); 15 Spot (+18); 15 Listen (+18); 15 MS (+22); 15 Hide (+22); 15 Open Lock (+22); Bunch of other stuff.
Armor Check Penalty: 0
- - - - - -
Combat
Shadow Pounce: Not raging: +25/+25/+20/+20 for 1d2+14+5d6 damage each.
Shadow Pounce: Raging: +27/+27/+27/+22/+22 for 1d2+5d6+18 or 17 damage (Depending on hand).

Shadow Pounces can occur between 1-3 times per round. 3 times the first round. Then either twice, or once after a full round action to refresh maneuvers. Then twice again, or 3 times if maneuvers refreshed.

So an average of 7 full attacks ever 3 rounds.

That's not counting Belt of Battle, since that can only be used for one fight a day.
- - - - - -
Equipment: Belt of Battle, Amulet of Health +2, Wis +2, 2 Feycraft Daggers, Mithral Shirt, Heward's Handy Haversack, Several Anklets of Translocation, Bracers of Dexterity +4, Gloves of Balanced Hand, A bunch of money not spent.
- - - - - -
Initiator Level 10; Maneuvers Readied: 5
Stances Known: Assassin's Stance and something that doesn't matter.
Maneuvers Known: Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, some boosts that don't really matter.

Minor spells from Shadowlord.
Haste himself twice a day, Invisibility himself 3 times.

Strategy:

This build is about full attacking as many times as possible, with as many attacks as possible, with damage added to his attacks.

Shadow Pounce is the key to the build, allowing a full attack at the end of any teleport. Ways to teleport that this build has:

1) Shadow Jaunt/Shadow Stride Maneuvers: Standard and Move action respectively. Refreshed with a full round action, usable as many times a day as needed.

2) Anklet's of Translocation: Swift action teleports of 10ft. 2 uses per Anklet, so he has several.

3) Shadow Jump: Gained by Shadow Lord class levels. Up to 8 10ft jumps a day as a standard action. Must be used last, since unlike all other teleports, based on DD which has no more actions that round stipulation (assumed that said clause still allows Shadow Pounce, since Shadow pounce isn't an action, and the abilities actual point is to give the Shadowlord his Shadow pounce).

Optimization tricks to save feats:
Feycraft allows weapons to be used as if with Weapon Finesse, saves a feat.
Balanced Hand gloves give GTWing, saves another feat.

Stat block for Harold:

He's DMM Persist Cleric, so most of his spells go into permanent buffs on everyone else and himself, and then he rips people apart with his full attack.

This is his sheet, but Myth Weavers recently deleted all the information in the feats section and lower. That once happened to my level 20 Wizard build before. I hated it.

Relevant Information:
Cloistered Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 4/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Contemplative 1/Paragnistic Apostle 1.

87 HP
AC 32
Saves +27/+18/+32
Full attack: +27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22/+22/+22/+22/+17/+17/+17/+17 for 3d6+21 damage each.

Can haste himself for more.

Spontaneous casting from the following domains:
Spell/Planning/Undeath/Knowledge.

Strategy:
Among Persisted Spells is Vigorous Circle, and Recitation/Other one, so everyone in the party gets +10 to saves from this guy, +6 to attack roles and damage, +5 or 10 to AC, and fast healing whatever.

He could actually sit out and still be a badass, but the full attack from his two splitting composite longbows also help out considerably. By which I mean easily rival or surpass the damage of the shadow pouncer.

Other two are under work.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 02:56 PM
I'd prefer that you not prejudge my restrictiveness.

I've never seen an IotSV in play; I go by what I've been warned of. Every source warns me that an Incantatrix can exploit metamagic to throw spells of such ridiculous damage that she should be in a Final Fantasy game.

I don't see how you got an epic feat at 10th level, but otherwise it sounds interesting.

1) IotSFV is not remotely overpowered.

2) Did you ever see me claim that Incantatrix isn't broken? No, because it is. However, the ridic damage isn't actually that bad. What is bad is that a level 8 Incantatrix can Persist 4th level spells. Like say, Greater Invisibility. That's the problem. Only gets worse as he gets higher level, since he can Persist things like Shapechange/Ironguard, ect.

3) The Epic feat is simply because per the rules for bonus feats, they do not need to meet any pre reqs unless they say they do. This doesn't come up a lot, since Fighter/Wizard both say they must meet pre-reqs, and Monk and Cleric have only specific choices. Rogue special abilities are the only ones that let you take any feat in the game and ignore pre-reqs. I tend to be nice, and instead of trying for something crazy, just take PTWFing, since it's basically what the regular TWFing feat should have been anyway.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 02:56 PM
1) Take that up with those who have seen it and still say it is. I'm only going by what I was told. I don't even know which sourcebook it's from.

Draz74
2009-01-13, 02:58 PM
I'd love to, of course, but I really don't have time. :smallfrown:

Even without running them myself, it's terribly amusing/informative to see these characters in action. I guess so far they seem to be doing well except for that Will save. I assume Kkekhif has been using Bolstering Voice constantly? Even then, it's understandable that she'd be failing it sometimes.

Hmm. Probably means I need to re-prioritize some item choices. Squeeze in Mindarmor armor? Or just a Least Crystal of Mind Cloaking? Or choke out 4k gp for a Lesser Crystal of Mind Cloaking? At Level 13, she'll get Iron Will as a bonus feat anyway.

EDIT: IMHO, people do indeed overestimate the IotSFV's power. For a full-casting PrC, it's not that bad -- it's just that full casting is overpowered anyway! But IotSFV is nowhere near the madness that (e.g.) Tippy can make out of an Incantrix.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 03:00 PM
She went with the added damage the first time around. Bolstering Voice the second time saved Zar-Lan from confusion but couldn't help Kkekhif.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-13, 03:10 PM
If you'll let me throw a couple of my d20r classes at this, then I believe we can have an accord. PBP on fora would work just fine for me.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 03:11 PM
Since I know Harold buffed himself, could you give me a shortlist of buffs in case he gets hit with greater dispelling?

Buff/CL/bonus is all I need.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 03:16 PM
Fax: I don't see why not.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 03:31 PM
Since I know Harold buffed himself, could you give me a shortlist of buffs in case he gets hit with greater dispelling?

Buff/CL/bonus is all I need.

Well, he casts 4 GMWs two for Bob, two for himself. He casts four to six MVs, one on each persons armor/shirt, one on the Masterwork Bucklers of Jim and Bill. He also has Superior Resistance cast on each person.

He also has Recitation and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. He has Heroics on himself twice, Freedom of Movement on himself, Polymorph into an Arrow Demon, Divine Power, Righteous Might, True Seeing, Blur, Air Walk.

That's mostly it. He also uses his third level slots to cast Mirror Image if he has spares.

All of those spells with the possible exception of Mirror Image, depending on time of time are cast at CL 16, but 20 against dispels. So at level 12, he is completely immune to Dispel Magic, only Greater can effect him.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 03:39 PM
23 spells... bit excessive for one encounter. :smallwink:

Draz74
2009-01-13, 03:44 PM
23 spells... bit excessive for one encounter. :smallwink:

Not if they're all 1 hour/level or Persisted.

On the other hand, there are some questionable rules interpretations going on here. Particularly, I was pretty sure the CO Boards had concluded that you can only benefit from one Heroics spell at a time.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 03:51 PM
I'm still wondering how his rogue could have an epic feat at 10th level.

Dyllan
2009-01-13, 04:26 PM
I'm still wondering how his rogue could have an epic feat at 10th level.

The rogue's "choose a feat" class ability does not say he has to meet prerequisites for that feat, while the ones for Fighter and Wizard do. Therefore, some interpret that to mean they can take any feat, regardless of whether they qualify for it. That would include epic feats.

Personally, I think any DM worth his salt would throw that out immediately. But if you guys play that way, it's your game, not mine.

-Dyllan

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 04:37 PM
I concur, in a big way. RAI was "you get a feat, as though you had obtained one through levelling."

RAW still leaves that interpretation on shaky legs, though, since also unlike fighters and wizards, there's no list. So fine, you don't need prerequisites, and you can choose from the following:

What? No feats for you? Oh... so sad...

Draz74
2009-01-13, 04:43 PM
Heh, yeah. You could also rule that his halfling shouldn't be 13th level, since he takes a 20% XP penalty with his Barbarian/Swordsage multiclassing.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 04:48 PM
I just hope he wasn't planning on using nightsticks to fuel his DMM. That is cheese and would be considered overpowered.

Draz74
2009-01-13, 04:56 PM
*shrug* It doesn't matter. I'm planning on running them up against a beastie that's currently able to kill the two he's posted will very little effort. It will all depend on the balance of power on the other two.

And that's why we like being DM. :smallbiggrin:

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 05:12 PM
1) As mentioned, all spells durations last hours usually either 16 hours or 24, except Mirror Image.

2) Actually, Dylan, you are missing a large part of the argument.

1: Rogue bonus feats have this wording: "A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability." This is quite clearly not a feat from a list, it's any feat, at all.

Now some people argue over whether or not a Rogue may gain a feat he does not meet pre-reqs for (no one quibbles that Fighters or Wizards can, because it says they can't. Similarly, no one quibbles over Monks, because they clearly can.)

2: On the subject of bonus feats needing to meet pre-reqs, I refer you to here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm) where you will find such lines as: "Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat." or "A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites. "

Making it very clear that the default stance for bonus feats is that you need not meet pre-reqs.

The most common argument against this is the statement that "creature" only applies to monsters, and not to NPCs or PCs (which as feats go, are functionally identical.) They say it's only for the weapon finesse given out to small animals.

Of course, that brings us to:

3: pg 148 of the MM, a Half-Fiend NPC Cleric has the following feats: "Combat Casting, Extra Turning, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (morningstar) [superscript b]"

So clearly bonus feats granted by Cleric domains are in fact bonus feats that you need not meet the pre-reqs for. Look at that, PC characters that don't have to meet pre-reqs.

Now most people get hung up here and say that even though the only non-Rogue instance in the PHB of it not explicitly stating if they need to meet pre-reqs in fact proves that PC bonus feats don't need to meet pre-reqs unless they say they do.

But assuming for a minute that we follow actual logic instead of what we think the rules should be:

The final argument is that one must be an Epic character to take Epic feats, and this is different from the pre-req rule.

4: Fortunately, the Mind Flayer Paragon class has Bonus feats that are Epic feats, even though we are talking about a Standard Mind Flayer with 8 HD and one level of the Paragon class.

So pretty much, yeah, Rogues can take any Epic feat they want, but just to be nice about it I only take the feat that does what TWFing should do anyways.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 05:14 PM
Heh, yeah. You could also rule that his halfling shouldn't be 13th level, since he takes a 20% XP penalty with his Barbarian/Swordsage multiclassing.

He's only level 12. Just like my other character, and just like my other two would be.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 05:25 PM
*shrug* so they missed it on errata.

"Bonus" is also just a word. "Bonus feat" is not given a definition in the PHB or in the MM; rather, they always use it to mean "additional," which is why it receives different definitions.

For monsters, it is an additional feat beyond that which their HD or Intelligence would allow. This addition is meant to serve as an additional quality for the monster, and rather than indicate that the monster should not qualify for the feat, they do so by calling it a bonus feat.

For fighters, it is an additional feat offered from a list. Same for wizards.

For monks, it is an additional feat offered from a selection so narrow that it would constrict all monk players to use the same starting builds to take advantage of it, which is why there is a specific waiver for qualification.

For rogues, it is an additional feat offered at a time when they would not qualify to take one. Without an indication in the PHB that these can be taken without prerequisite, they must be taken with prerequisite.

Darth Stabber
2009-01-13, 05:29 PM
This is the 5th lvl testing party I run
Beatstick
Human Barb1/fighter2/barb2
Feats: Power attack, Cleave, WF/WS(greatsword), Blind Fight, and combat expertise

Human Sorc5
Feats: Still spell, eschew material components, improved familiar(psuedo dragon)
Spells: Mostly damage and control

Human cleric5
Feats: craft wonderous item, augment summoning, extend spell

Human Rogue5
Feats: improved initiative, blind fight, two weapon fighting
Skills: Hide, Move silently, open lock, disable device, escape artist, listen, bluff, appraise, climb, UMD, search.

Basic Tactics: Casters buff, Rogue scout the area and deliver the first blow, Fighter charge, Casters try to contribute after that.

This group seems to do very well as far as CR goes, I have variants for every lvl, but this is when the team @ its most average.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 05:40 PM
*shrug* so they missed it on errata.

"Bonus" is also just a word. "Bonus feat" is not given a definition in the PHB or in the MM; rather, they always use it to mean "additional," which is why it receives different definitions.

For rogues, it is an additional feat offered at a time when they would not qualify to take one. Without an indication in the PHB that these can be taken without prerequisite, they must be taken with prerequisite.

No, this is just wrong. Bonus feat does have a definition. It's a feat that you don't have to meet the pre-reqs for. It is defined in the MM. It's only contradicted with Fighter and Wizard by the specific trumps general rule, in which description of "Fighter Bonus Feats" that contradict "Bonus feats" are used instead.

It's not something missed on errata, it's intentional, as demonstrated by the MM. Level 1 Clerics with the War Domain totally do get to use Weapon Focus at level 1. And Rogues totally do get to grab cool feats that are actually worth something to replace the ability to do Str damage with all their attacks, or the ability to take 10 when no one else can.

Draz74
2009-01-13, 05:47 PM
No, this is just wrong. Bonus feat does have a definition. It's a feat that you don't have to meet the pre-reqs for. you get in addition to your normal feats at Level 1 and every 3rd level.

Fixed that for you.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-13, 05:52 PM
No, this is just wrong. Bonus feat does have a definition. It's a feat that you don't have to meet the pre-reqs for. It is defined in the MM. It's only contradicted with Fighter and Wizard by the specific trumps general rule, in which description of "Fighter Bonus Feats" that contradict "Bonus feats" are used instead.

It's not something missed on errata, it's intentional, as demonstrated by the MM. Level 1 Clerics with the War Domain totally do get to use Weapon Focus at level 1. And Rogues totally do get to grab cool feats that are actually worth something to replace the ability to do Str damage with all their attacks, or the ability to take 10 when no one else can.

The MM is for monsters, not players. Further, since bonus feats are not actually defined anywhere except where you indicate (which is a short description on how to read a monster entry, not how to use bonus feats as a player), the Prerequisites section for Feats still qualifies. As such, a class feature that does not specifically state that you may ignore the prerequisites (such as a monk's 2nd level bonus feat) or that does not give you the benefits of the feat without actually taking it (such as the War domain power {Granted Power: Free Martial Weapon Proficiency with deity’s favored weapon (if necessary) and Weapon Focus with the deity’s favored weapon.}) still follows those rules.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 05:53 PM
So I could take five levels of druid, ten levels of rogue and be able to Colossal wild shape once per day?

That's ridiculous. You're basing this off of an assistive instruction in How To Read A Monster Entry. Bonus feat, per the glossaries of all three core rulebooks, has no definition and is a subjective trait based on the source of allocation of said feat.

Edit: ninja'd by Fax.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 05:59 PM
Yes, I am making the crazy off the wall statement that words describing certain types of feats, describe certain types of feats. And that absolute proof that those words apply to feats of that type in the PHB as well as the MM means that those words apply to feats in the PHB as well as the MM.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 06:02 PM
You have no "absolute proof." That section does not state how to use or take bonus feats; it states that if a monster has feats which it is not qualified to take, they are marked as bonus feats.

As Fax said, the contention of that paragraph is to apply to monsters only. The superscript B is used to demarcate any feat available in a statblock without necessary validity - such as Weapon Focus, which that cleric hasn't actually taken.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 07:08 PM
You have no "absolute proof." That section does not state how to use or take bonus feats; it states that if a monster has feats which it is not qualified to take, they are marked as bonus feats.

As Fax said, the contention of that paragraph is to apply to monsters only. The superscript B is used to demarcate any feat available in a statblock without necessary validity - such as Weapon Focus, which that cleric hasn't actually taken.

I'm sorry, that last part makes no sense to me. Are you saying that the PC Cleric with Weapon Focus as a bonus feat who doesn't meet pre-Reqs can or can't benefit from the feat?

As I explained in the initial post. The superscript clearly applies to non-Monster PC feats, as evidenced by the Cleric. And if there where a Rogue who took the feat option, he would get the same bonus feat Superscript.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 07:34 PM
The superscript B is used to demarcate any feat available in a statblock without necessary validity

In other words, any feat that, by level progression alone, should not be available to the statted creature.


As I explained in the initial post. The superscript clearly applies to non-Monster PC feats, as evidenced by the Cleric. And if there where a Rogue who took the feat option, he would get the same bonus feat Superscript.

I concur. Because of the reason explained above.

A rogue must take a feat he has the prerequisites for, because there is no definition that explicitly outlines what a bonus feat is. Rather, there is an informational guide that explains what is or is not a bonus feat as pertains to monsters.


If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats.

Under your contention, if I were presented with a monster that had five levels of fighter, I would be expected by RAW to leave his three fighter bonus feats in place despite being permitted to replace those it obtained at level 1 and 3, which would open the possibility of selecting new feats for the monster such that it held bonus feats that it could not have chosen due to lacking the prerequisites.

They are separate concepts, as Fax said.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-13, 07:43 PM
1) So, you just won't answer my question about a level 1 Cleric?

2) Fighter bonus feats do not get the Superscript (B) tag, because they are not bonus feats for which a pre-req need not be met. Only feats which do not require pre-reqs get the Superscript (B) tag.

This is evidenced by the fact that Clerics do get it, and Fighters do not. See, the Half Fiend Cleric with the War Domain, and the Half Dragon Fighter with no Superscript (B).

The Superscript denotes feats that you need not meet the pre-reqs to use.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 07:58 PM
1) So, you just won't answer my question about a level 1 Cleric?

Right, that's it, I'm evading. Couldn't be that I overlooked it.

According to the rules for feats, no: the cleric cannot benefit from the Weapon Focus feat until he meets the prerequisite; however, he has the feat when that becomes true.

The SRD does give me this line, however:


The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.

Which would lead me to conclude, per RAI if not RAW, that the cleric should receive the benefits of Weapon Focus. As a DM, I follow this latter interpretation.


2) Fighter bonus feats do not get the Superscript (B) tag

That is incorrect. May I call your attention to the Ogre Tempest, MM IV page 109, who has all three fighter bonus feats with the superscript. Similarly the Kuo-Toa Harpooner, MM V page 96, with the addition of a racial weapon proficiency as a bonus feat.

Current formatting includes the B superscript for anything denoted as a bonus feat.

Even in the original MM they still couldn't sort this out. Look at the 5th level vampire in the MM p. 251. The vampire template's feats don't state that they are bonus feats, and the creature meets the prerequisites for all of them. Yet they all are marked with the superscript B. To its right, we have the 13th level vampire, who doesn't have any of those feats marked.

In any event, this whole line of argument is pointless. The B superscript only applies to monster-format statblocks. Character-format statblocks do not recognize them.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-13, 08:22 PM
As I stated prior, there is no definition of "bonus feat" in any part of the SRD except as a class feature or as a method of describing how to read a monster stat block. As such, we are forced to stick with the rules that are delineated specifically for feats.


Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

But what about the monk, who is capable of taking feats he doesn't qualify for?


Bonus Feat: At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Sure, the monk can take feats without meeting their prerequisites in this one instance. That's because they're part of a class feature that allows it.

Meanwhile, the rogue:


Feat

A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.
Note how a rogue doesn't qualify that they don't need to meet prerequisites. As such, we default to the regular rules on feats and prerequisites: that is, that you have to meet them.

In the case of the War Domain power, where it does not specifically delineate that Weapon Focus' prerequisites do not need to be met (or even that it is a bonus feat), frankly, a first-level cleric would not be able to utilize the bonus Weapon Focus feat provided by the domain. He would have to wait until second-level.

However, if one really wants that extra +1 at 1st level, you could make a case with the text within domain powers:


Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells

A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.

With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.From this, you could gather that the implication is that the cleric does not need to meet prerequisites. That's still an interpretation of the rules, and therefore RAI. RAW, a first-level cleric with the War domain cannot use his domain's granted power.

Draz74
2009-01-13, 08:51 PM
So, to get this thread back on topic, I actually ran that same battle again ...

Dang, Afro, you must know how to run my party better than I do. TPK. Slaughter.

I thought it was a pretty close battle, but that was before I realized that I'd been forgetting the Slaadi Fast Healing all along (and it was a LONG battle of attrition). Then again, I guess I forgot to make them do Concentration checks to use SLAs while entangled, too, so it sort of balances out ... but still.

Were you using the same stats for Orange Slaad that are linked to in your sig? Because that DR 10/lawful is KILLER. In particular, you said Grivvle did a lot of damage ... how? He seemed downright useless as soon as he ran out of Inspiration, which happened very near the beginning of the battle, since he had no way to pierce the DR.

Kkekhif got nailed straight off by a Confusion that sent her running off the battlefield. Op-Tuun bravely took the front line, and was doing great at shrugging off their damage and resisting all their spells until he got crippled by an Otto's Irresistible Dance and quickly died to AoO's. (I should have had Zar-Lan using Voracious Dispelling a LOT more, but still ...) Zar-Lan was the only one of the group whose offense was effective, but she couldn't outlive the Slaadi in a battle of attrition where they stayed out of her range (which was easy after Terrifying Roar made them run away for a round) and peppered her with a zillion Lightning Bolts. Kkekhif eventually arrived at the scene again, Confusion worn off, and joined in again before Zar-Lan was dead (Zar-Lan even saved her from a Tasha's Hideous Laughter via Dispel), and shrugged off another THL with a natural 20 save, and managed to take down one of the Slaadi with her dying throes (sans Fast Healing).

So yeah ... what was I missing that made Grivvle, in particular, effective? Or were you using newer, updated stats for the Slaadi? Because the combination of

Fast Healing
DR
energy resistance
infinite high-DC Hideous Laughter
infinite long-range Lightning Bolt
Irresistible Dance as a "nova"

just seemed very unbeatable to me.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 09:03 PM
I used those given stats.

I bent yours.

After running an initial battle in which your folks all got pasted, I aligned all their weapons.

I figured it would make up for some of the magic items I didn't recognize to have a wand of align weapon pre-buff them all.

Still a mashup, but some lucky rolls on your side and poor ones on mine sank my slaadi. Not to mention that one of them dropped a confusion on the other the second time around, for expediency.

Was the 5 energy resistance really that debilitating? I didn't mind it all that much.

A lot of similar things happened; Voracious Dispelling and the viscous glob distraction kept spell-like abilities low; lightning bolts were a pain, confusion separated the party and gave the slaadi a violent advantage and THL was very near a death sentence.

I suppose it's just the wrong party to be fighting slaadi with. I expected a cleric or other character with access to some alignment-based hosing. Your party wouldn't have stood against a single death slaad either, in all likelihood.

Did you consider that maybe I'm not all that good at running the party, but rather I just suck at running slaadi? :smallbiggrin:

Draz74
2009-01-13, 09:16 PM
Aha. Well ... that certainly would have helped. Especially if they came pre-buffed with it.

Well, now I feel like my party's terribly unoptimized. :smallredface: I thought DR 10/alignment wasn't supposed to show up until several levels later ... Do I need to add in some boosts in that direction? Or was this really just an unusual circumstance? I guess I need to finish designing them and test them against other monsters to find out.


Was the 5 energy resistance really that debilitating? I didn't mind it all that much.

No, not terribly. It's just a good combo with their other defensive abilities, and at least Grivvle could have done *some* damage (acid crystal) without it. Also significant when Zar-Lan used an Enduring Entangling Breath and the Slaad made its save, so it got to use its resistance twice against an already-1/4 breath weapon.

It also occurs to me that the battle might have been pretty different if the arena had boundaries. No long-distance lightning bolt attrition would have made Zar-Lan a lot more dangerous, and kept confused characters from running away, too.


Did you consider that maybe I'm not all that good at running the party, but rather I just suck at running slaadi? :smallbiggrin:

I thought of it, but you've said most of your experience is as a DM. Besides, I made some mistakes with the Slaadi, too.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 09:24 PM
Yeah, Grivvle's acid damage was useless. It was the fact that they couldn't find him nor afford to waste actions blasting at him/looking for him that let him run down their hp while they dealt with Zar-Lan and her flying breath bombardment.

Grey slaadi (CR 10) have DR 10/lawful; so no. You do need to cover that base.

Boundaries would also have made TLH go into warp. Only Grivvle would have avoided it, and then they would have caught up with him anyway.

Look, maybe it was just a bad combat.

Tell you what: try them against one of these. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5160324&postcount=32)

Still has DR 10/lawful, but it's less mobile and has fewer nasty SLAs.

Also: watch out for the extra traits; again, acid will not avail you, but they have few other energy resistances.

See in Darkness (Su): Lamenti can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that produced by a deeper darkness spell.
Sonic resistance 20
Acid resistance 10
Immunity to diseases
Immunity to mind-affecting effects and spells
Summon (Sp): Lamenti share the ability to summon others of their - kind (the success chance and type of lamente summoned are noted in each monster description).

Eldariel
2009-01-13, 09:35 PM
Inevitables (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) also have DR/Chaotic and the lowest is CR 9. It's around levels 9-10 when the aligned weapons really become an issue.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 09:45 PM
Oh, don't even start me on Inevitables (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91492).

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-14, 03:08 AM
I'm going to suggest that the at-will THL be dropped to 1-2 per day. At Will abilities can screw over a party very quickly, especially against intelligent foes like Slaadi that are smart enough to see what works. Either that or make it not affect anything inside a "Magic Circle against Chaos" spell. This gives the PC's a respectable means of dealing with that ability.
Actually after reading over the stat block I would say that it simply doesn't function while the Slaad is in it's normal form. This removes their natural weapons (which are a bitch and a half) but gives them the ability to basically take the party Fighter out of the equation (and possibly the Rogue).

It also seems like giving them 8d6 Lightning Bolts at will is a bit much. That's something that you need a Reserve Feat and 8th level spells to do as a player and even then only at a 20 ft range. Shatter also has the potential to be a party wrecker. I would get rid of both personally. Maybe give them Scorching Ray in place of the Lightning Bolts so that they have at least one ranged damage spell like ability.

These also seem less like direct combatants than they do manipulators and schemers that would rather run when they are uncovered. A lot of monsters would rape a party's face in except for small notes in the behavior entry like "they don't use this massive rape AoE for fear of damaging the party's treasure unless they are about to die". Just something to keep in mind.

xanaphia
2009-01-14, 03:15 AM
Here you go, ECL 12. Mine, you don't have to assemble. But I am using Tome of Battle -- apologies, I didn't know you didn't want it. At least it's just a Warblade, so the rules are free online. :smallsmile: And feel free to ask any questions.


Where are the Warblade rules?

Eldariel
2009-01-14, 06:55 AM
You can find Warblade along with half of one school of maneuvers here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2). Great preview for those interested in fun melee, that haven't tried ToB yet (do it!).

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 08:50 AM
I'm going to suggest that the at-will THL be dropped to 1-2 per day. At Will abilities can screw over a party very quickly, especially against intelligent foes like Slaadi that are smart enough to see what works.

Compare it to the death slaad, CR 13, which can fire off finger of death at will. Is it really that dangerous by comparison?


Either that or make it not affect anything inside a "Magic Circle against Chaos" spell. This gives the PC's a respectable means of dealing with that ability.


I like that idea.


Actually after reading over the stat block I would say that it simply doesn't function while the Slaad is in it's normal form. This removes their natural weapons (which are a bitch and a half) but gives them the ability to basically take the party Fighter out of the equation (and possibly the Rogue).


It's supposed to... I should reword that.


It also seems like giving them 8d6 Lightning Bolts at will is a bit much.

Grey slaadi, CR 10, can crack off 10d6 lightning bolts at will.


Shatter also has the potential to be a party wrecker.

Same answer.


These also seem less like direct combatants than they do manipulators and schemers that would rather run when they are uncovered. A lot of monsters would rape a party's face in except for small notes in the behavior entry like "they don't use this massive rape AoE for fear of damaging the party's treasure unless they are about to die". Just something to keep in mind.

Evidently I just need to polish the behavior block, which currently reads:


Orange slaadi will rush headfirst into combat. Capricious and gleeful, they will often employ nothing more than their perverse cheer to defeat their foes. If they’re feeling more savage, however, they will bring on their claws and bite, making full attacks.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-14, 10:59 AM
I agree with afro that at will Lightningbolt/shatter aren't a big deal (Shatter doesn't work on magic items, like anything that PCs are carrying at that level).

The reason Hideous Laughter is as bad or worse then Finger of Death is because it's effectively a kill spell, but will saves tend to be weaker then Fortitude saves.

However, a point of note, as per the rule of Magic Circle/Protection, ect, being inside a circle already suppresses the effect. Since, "Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)"

Since Hideous Laughter is an Enchantment Compulsion effect. Magic Circle suppresses it.

Draz74
2009-01-14, 11:36 AM
I'm going to suggest that the at-will THL be dropped to 1-2 per day. [snip]
Actually after reading over the stat block I would say that it simply doesn't function while the Slaad is in it's normal form. This removes their natural weapons (which are a bitch and a half) but gives them the ability to basically take the party Fighter out of the equation (and possibly the Rogue).

Another idea along these lines: THL could be Concentration duration, instead of 1 round/level?


I agree with afro that at will Lightningbolt/shatter aren't a big deal (Shatter doesn't work on magic items, like anything that PCs are carrying at that level).

Yeah, up close, the Lightning Bolt certainly isn't unbalanced. I think I only had a problem with it because I was assuming an infinite, flat, featureless arena space that allowed for ridiculous long-range sniping. Realistic terrain would mean there are places to take cover from long-range lightning attrition.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 11:42 AM
They'd probably exploit real terrain in a more sinister fashion, though. Turning invisible and bombing foes with confusion would amuse them too much.

I just realized that they may be more dangerous than I'd anticipated; I'm going to have to run the combat again. The reason: Perverse Cheer is supernatural, not spell-like, and so it can't be dispelled. :smalleek:

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-14, 11:45 AM
Compare it to the death slaad, CR 13, which can fire off finger of death at will. Is it really that dangerous by comparison?

Yes for the reasons mentioned above.

EDIT: Oh and the whole not dispellable thing. That's a party wrecker. Though making it a full round action that provokes AoO's or making it "As long as the Slaad is dancing +1 round" would both help to balance it out.


It's supposed to... I should reword that.

No I understood what you meant I was just offering a suggestion.


Grey slaadi, CR 10, can crack off 10d6 lightning bolts at will.

I may be simply over thinking the effectiveness of the spell (and I supposed casting it would provoke an AoO) but still...


Same answer.

Wasn't really thinking about the whole "doesn't work on magical stuff" bit. I would be more than a little worried about it dropping that ability on someone's potions but honestly with an int of 7 they probably aren't that smart...




Evidently I just need to polish the behavior block, which currently reads:

Orange slaadi will rush headfirst into combat. Capricious and gleeful, they will often employ nothing more than their perverse cheer to defeat their foes. If they’re feeling more savage, however, they will bring on their claws and bite, making full attacks.

I was more saying that this was how I saw them based on their abilities and how you described their nature. As for actual changes that I think need to be made to the combat/behavior description: Emphasize that 7 Int more. Things with an Int of 7 are the ones that take three or four of those Lightning Bolts and the enemy Rogue mooning you in the middle of one to realize they aren't doing squat.

Also some note about them relishing Melee combat and therefore attacking the toughest opponent first would put them on more of an even footing since that would give the party Wizard at least 1 round of uninterrupted merry hell making

Blood_Lord
2009-01-14, 11:45 AM
Lightning can't be used to snipe though. It's only a 120ft line. With no range.

It's fireball that snipes.

Not to mention spot checks to determine encounter distance.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-14, 11:52 AM
Lightning can't be used to snipe though. It's only a 120ft line. With no range.

It's fireball that snipes.

Not to mention spot checks to determine encounter distance.

Yeah given a flat featureless plane the advantage goes to the party 9 times out of 10.

Just a couple of points here:

Again, int of 7 here... they won't be using their abilities for maximum devastation they would be using them in a way that's more in line with their whims. (So while they would confusion the Fighter out of amusement they might take a couple of round trying to make the "funny man in the robes" dance around before giving up and Lightning Bolting him.

An unprepared party walking into this has a VERY good chance of being shredded. Magic Circle against Chaos brings the fight down to an even level IMO but if these guys just jumped the party in the street with the intent of killing them then there isn't much they could do to prevent at least one death.

Draz74
2009-01-14, 12:03 PM
Lightning can't be used to snipe though. It's only a 120ft line. With no range.

It's fireball that snipes.

Huh, whoops.


Not to mention spot checks to determine encounter distance.

Well, the issue is that they spent a full round (due to a fear effect) running away, putting them at a distance of 160 ft, even though they started the encounter much closer.


I just realized that they may be more dangerous than I'd anticipated; I'm going to have to run the combat again. The reason: Perverse Cheer is supernatural, not spell-like, and so it can't be dispelled. :smalleek:

Yeah -- can't be dispelled, doesn't provoke an AoO, can't be stopped by SR, requires no Concentration check if the critters are entangled ... :smalleek:

Plus, a nasty thing about using dispel to save your own party members from save-or-lose effects: you have no way to make sure you won't dispel their buffs, such as Greater Magic Weapon. (In my party's case, Metaphysical Weapon and Endure Exposure.)

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 12:31 PM
According to the current behavior block, their most likely opening tactic is to take a move action to get next to a foe, then use Perverse Cheer. Puts them right into attack range.

I assumed that most parties would have access to at minimum protection from evil, which prevents THL from taking effect. I don't know if it stops confusion, but there are workarounds.

Knowing what we now know, I'd like to try this combat again before I make any extreme adjustments. Draz, do you have time to run it?

metagaia
2009-01-14, 01:58 PM
3: pg 148 of the MM, a Half-Fiend NPC Cleric has the following feats: "Combat Casting, Extra Turning, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (morningstar) [superscript b]"

So clearly bonus feats granted by Cleric domains are in fact bonus feats that you need not meet the pre-reqs for. Look at that, PC characters that don't have to meet pre-reqs.

I am not debating the arguement one way or the other but that is a horrendous example. Half-fiends are classed as Outsiders, not humans, and from the SRD:

SRD
(an Outsider is) Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Therefore it has meet the prerequirse of weapon focus (morningstar). You are going to have to find another example if that point is going to hold.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-14, 02:02 PM
I am not debating the arguement one way or the other but that is a horrendous example. Half-fiends are classed as Outsiders, not humans, and from the SRD:

Therefore it has met the prerequirse of weapon focus (morningstar). You are going to have to find another example if that point is going to hold.

1) The point is to prove that PC bonus feats get the superscript (B) tag when they need not meet pre-reqs.

2) Clerics are also proficient with Morning stars.

The pre-req for Weapon Focus is BAB +1, something no level 1 Cleric ever has.

Which leads us back through the previous argument, in which Fax says that Clerics can use the feat at level 1, Afro, who agrees with him 100% says they can't. Any everyone pretends that all bonus feats must meet pre-reqs even though they are specifically spelled out as not needing to.

But just pick a side and don't say anything about it, because this thread is way more productive when dealing with CR of monsters then Rogue bonus feats.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-14, 02:28 PM
Which leads us back through the previous argument, in which Fax says that Clerics can use the feat at level 1, Afro, who agrees with him 100% says they can't.

Not quite. I said that they should, but they technically can't. Anyway, yeah, you're right: this is really an argument for a different thread.

afroakuma
2009-01-14, 02:37 PM
Which is also what I said, except that I was a bit more emphatic about the technical side.

Come to think of it, now that we've started hashing these monsters, it might in fact be time for a different thread. I direct your attention to Test Your Might in the Gaming forum.

Draz74
2009-01-14, 03:01 PM
Knowing what we now know, I'd like to try this combat again before I make any extreme adjustments. Draz, do you have time to run it?

Not today, sorry. Besides, before you use my party as a CR diagnostic, I'd like to do some more thorough tests on it to see if there's any other gaping holes it has, like the DR thing, as a result of spurning standard Vancian casting in general.

And "no wand of Protection from Evil" is an excellent example of a problem that I meant to fix, but didn't because I haven't gotten the equipment of the party optimized at all levels yet. Embarrassing, but not as embarrassing as overlooking the DR thing. :smallwink:

Eldariel
2009-01-14, 05:22 PM
According to the current behavior block, their most likely opening tactic is to take a move action to get next to a foe, then use Perverse Cheer. Puts them right into attack range.

I assumed that most parties would have access to at minimum protection from evil, which prevents THL from taking effect. I don't know if it stops confusion, but there are workarounds.

Knowing what we now know, I'd like to try this combat again before I make any extreme adjustments. Draz, do you have time to run it?

Another thing to remember is that generally Su-abilities have save DC defined by HD rather than effect level.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-14, 08:15 PM
The Orange Slaad is Chaotic Neutral which (I believe) means Protection from Evil doesn't work on it. You would need Protection from Chaos.

Draz74
2009-01-14, 08:21 PM
The Orange Slaad is Chaotic Neutral which (I believe) means Protection from Evil doesn't work on it. You would need Protection from Chaos.

Read the spell again. Protection from Evil won't get you +2 AC/saves, nor complete immunity to melee attacks if the Slaad is summoned, but it will still make you immune to his Enchantment (compulsion) effects. The former two effects would require Protection from Chaos.