Plagiarism

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Does anyone here worry about plagarism? I certainly do. I've signed anti-plagarism statement after anti-plagarism statement in college, and it's probably my number one fear. Since accidental plagarism is plagarism too, I'm always paranoid about writing stuff, because I'm worried I'll accidentally rip off someone else's work. It's why I fear cliches, since if I can't come up with something original, I'm ripping off someone else's intellectual property. I'm beginning to wonder if I can ever write a novel or something, because no matter what I come up with, I'll rip someone off. The writing world is a minefield of plagarism and I'm worried it's gonna get me.

Why do people like cliches so, when they plagarize other people's work? People murder over plagarism!

[Rutskarn]

Does anyone here worry about plagarism? I certainly do. I've signed anti-plagarism statement after anti-plagarism statement in college, and it's probably my number one fear. Since accidental plagarism is plagarism too, I'm always paranoid about writing stuff, because I'm worried I'll accidentally rip off someone else's work. It's why I fear cliches, since if I can't come up with something original, I'm ripping off someone else's intellectual property. I'm beginning to wonder if I can ever write a novel or something, because no matter what I come up with, I'll rip someone off. The writing world is a minefield of plagarism and I'm worried it's gonna get me.

Why do people like cliches so, when they plagarize other people's work? People murder over plagarism!

...what?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Haven't you seen CSI: New York? In one episode, a guy murdered some other guy for having an affair with his wife and plagarizing his work that he'd written all over the walls.

[Rutskarn]

(The joke was that I had completely copy-pasted your OP.)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I don't get the joke. Plagarism is a serious matter.

[BizzaroStormy]

I know I haven't. Theres too much drama on TV and not enough comedy since they stopped making new episodes of Jackass but thats another thread.

As for plagirism, I really don't see why it would be a problem unless you're the type who tries to make a living by writing. If it were just some dude copying, I would kinda feel flattered that someone felt my work was good enough, then again, I've never really been a writer. Plus as humanity goes on, the odds of "plagirism" will continue to rise as people continue to scrape the bottom of the literary barrel for ideas that dont simply copy another.

But then again, since its illegal to smoke [Censored because I dont want a mod up my ass] or use [Censored because I dont want a mod up my ass] people's creativity is limited and in countries where that stuff IS legal, there isnt a decent market for literature so it doesn't get out.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm pretty sure Tolkien, Shakespeare, Milton, Caroll, and Spenser never did stuff like that!

[Joran]

Since accidental plagarism is plagarism too, I'm always paranoid about writing stuff, because I'm worried I'll accidentally rip off someone else's work. It's why I fear cliches, since if I can't come up with something original, I'm ripping off someone else's intellectual property. I'm beginning to wonder if I can ever write a novel or something, because no matter what I come up with, I'll rip someone off. The writing world is a minefield of plagarism and I'm worried it's gonna get me.

For me, plagiarism is a very serious charge and with it has a very narrow definition. It has to be obviously, substantially similar. For instance, if I wrote Larry Gardener the Wizard and just basically copied Harry Potter and just changed the names, it'd be plagiarism. If I wrote a story on my own about a student in a wizard academy, it wouldn't be plagiarism if I came up with the story on my own and it's substantially different.

If you accidentally steal something, odds are it'll be substantially different enough not to be plagiarism. Almost every story is based off of another story and there are many notable pieces of fiction that use other people's characters. If you're worried that you might be copying someone else, be sure to have your stories read by people you trust to give you honest and good feedback; it'll make you a much better writer.

For non-fiction, avoiding plagiarism is just a matter of doing enough research to make sure no one else has done what you're doing. I was reading a book and it seems like most early scientific discoveries were credited to the second person who discovered them ;)

[BizzaroStormy]

Yeah, thats pretty much the point I was making. Once something has been written, somebody will base something off of it and publish that. Then someone else will do the same thing, and the cycle will continue to repeat itself. Have you seen how many remakes of A Christmas Carol are out there? Enough to make Dickens spin in his grave so fast it would slow reverse the rotation of the earth.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

But what if I write something and someone calls me on it? Any fantasy thing I write probably rips off Tolkien. I've tried writing non-fantasy fiction, but it's always sucked. My writing sucks!:smallfrown:

[BizzaroStormy]

Its that kind of paranoia that will keep you from writing anything at all.

you pretty much got two options:

1. Write what you want, ignoring outside influences.

2. Don't write anything and find an alternate use of time.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

How does one get over such paranoia? I just get so scared that people will hate what I've written. I had to ask to write a fantasy short story in my Creative Writing Fiction class (the syllabus stipulated that we had to write realistic fiction stories), and I think I got a C or D in that class. I have no idea how I'm going to fare in a Creative Writing Poetry class. I'm so scared!:smallfrown:

[valadil]

Worrying about it is a waste of time. You can't possibly have read everything out there. Your ideas may coincide with someone else's but that doesn't make it plagiarism. Don't worry about things beyond your control.

Besides, anti plagiarism software can't check for ideas. It only looks at the structure of writing. While you may have the same idea as someone you're unlikely to present it in the same manner using the same terms (or using almost the same terms). People who plagiarize do it badly. They copy and paste. They paraphrase. They use a thesaurus. That's what your college is worried about. They have no problem with you stumbling upon an idea someone else got to first.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Even if it happens to look exactly like the story in Book I of Spencer's The Faerie Queene? Or bears an eerie resemblance to Tolkien's Mordor? Or if the king character is a blatant copy of King Arthur?!

[Serpentine]

I don't get the joke. Plagarism is a serious matter.If we can't joke about serious matters, what can we joke about?

[TheCountAlucard]

Yeah, my roomie almost got expelled for plagiarism on his English paper, just because he wrote down the wrong page number for one of his sources. Yeah, wasn't fun... even after he went back and wrote down the correct page number, the teacher still lowered his grade by a full letter.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What I mean is you shouldn't joke about something that could get you expelled from school. My parents are depending on me to finish college so they haven't wasted their money in sending me there!

[Deathslayer7]

plagarism. haha. that's funny. You would be stupid to plagarize and get caught possibly.

As for accidental. If you haven't heard of it before, I doubt it would be much of a problem. :smalltongue:

[averagejoe]

But then again, since its illegal to smoke [Censored because I dont want a mod up my ass] or use [Censored because I dont want a mod up my ass] people's creativity is limited and in countries where that stuff IS legal, there isnt a decent market for literature so it doesn't get out.

Haha, seriously? I mean, you seem serious, but the claim makes me doubt this. Doped up dudes tend to think up things that are somewhat stranger, granted, but not really more creative. If your creativity is limited then you're the one doing the limiting.

What's to stop one from writing it in one country and marketing it in another, anyways?


What I mean is you shouldn't joke about something that could get you expelled from school. My parents are depending on me to finish college so they haven't wasted their money in sending me there!

You mean like jokes about theft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0618.html) or violence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html)? Those can get you expelled too.

[Haruki-kun]

Does anyone here worry about plagarism? I certainly do. I've signed anti-plagarism statement after anti-plagarism statement in college, and it's probably my number one fear. Since accidental plagarism is plagarism too, I'm always paranoid about writing stuff, because I'm worried I'll accidentally rip off someone else's work. It's why I fear cliches, since if I can't come up with something original, I'm ripping off someone else's intellectual property. I'm beginning to wonder if I can ever write a novel or something, because no matter what I come up with, I'll rip someone off. The writing world is a minefield of plagarism and I'm worried it's gonna get me.

Why do people like cliches so, when they plagarize other people's work? People murder over plagarism!

...what?

Oh, GAWD. I was litersally JUST ABOUT TO DO THAT. As soon as I looked at the title I thought of it...... :smallbiggrin: Sucks to be me right about now.

[Quorothorn]

I'm pretty sure Tolkien, Shakespeare, Milton, Caroll, and Spenser never did stuff like that!

Actually, they did. A lot. They simply infused their borrowed themes with their own unique life, and made new themes of their own to boot. The difference between "plagiarism" and "borrowing themes" is that in the latter you use them in your own way and don't just parrot previously-used themes with a few slapped-on bits. As long as you honestly do that, you're not plagiarising in my opinion. Just honestly try to write the classic themes in your own way, and that's all anyone can ask of you.

Tolkien is IMO the single greatest author in history, but what he did was not 100% original. A dragon going on a rampage over a stolen goblet? That happened in Beowulf. A magic ring that makes you invisible and leads to inevitable corruption? That's from Plato (The Republic IIRC). And there is no doubt he knew of both: he was a revolutionary scholar of Beowulf, and as a classically educated Englishman, he knew the Greek classics. Nothing can be 100% original, period. Well, maybe if it's about two pages long... :smallamused: It's about how original you are, and, perhaps even more importantly, how good your execution is. Not about being 100% unique and not owing anything to the past: try for that, and you will fail. Just do your best.


Even if it happens to look exactly like the story in Book I of Spencer's The Faerie Queene? Or bears an eerie resemblance to Tolkien's Mordor? Or if the king character is a blatant copy of King Arthur?!

Mordor and King Arthur are both what are known as archetypes: the Wasteland and the Hero/Good Lord. If something you make resembles either, that's why: because they are recurring symbols in the human imagination. Not because you are a hack.

[Grail]

I have no idea how I'm going to fare in a Creative Writing Poetry class. I'm so scared!:smallfrown:

Man, poetry is so freakin' easy. Seriously - you should never think about what you are writing when writing poetry. Just pick an emotion that you want to emphasize, start writing and don't look back.

Love
Depression
Hate

are some of the easiest things to write about, because at the end of the day it's just usually just a load of bollocks anyway.

I used to write poetry all the time, and if I can do it, anyone can.

[snoopy13a]

But what if I write something and someone calls me on it? Any fantasy thing I write probably rips off Tolkien.

Half of all fantasy rips off Tolkien :smalltongue:

Plagarism and cheating could have theorectically get one expelled at my oldv college but I think that most people who got caught usually escaped with suspension or probation for the first time. A third violation of the "honor code" (or whatever it was called) was using the same paper for two different classes. I always thought that was unfair. If someone had the luck of having two different classes assign similar assignment then they should benefit from it :smallbiggrin:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

But GOOD poetry?

Should I provide a sample of my writing to show just how much of a hack I am?!

[Grail]

Sure,

here's another tip.

Poetry is IMO, not romantic, it is passion. Think of the chick/guy, whatever that you lust after most in the world.

And if you're willing to post here, sure. Let's have a squiz.

[averagejoe]

But GOOD poetry?

Should I provide a sample of my writing to show just how much of a hack I am?!

I have written only a handful (something like twenty) lines of poetry that I'm proud of. Ever. Granted, I don't write a lot of poetry, but the point is that everything you do doesn't need to be super-good. Your professor won't expect it of you. Don't worry about it so much.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Does anyone here worry about plagarism? I certainly do. I've signed anti-plagarism statement after anti-plagarism statement in college, and it's probably my number one fear. Since accidental plagarism is plagarism too, I'm always paranoid about writing stuff, because I'm worried I'll accidentally rip off someone else's work. It's why I fear cliches, since if I can't come up with something original, I'm ripping off someone else's intellectual property. I'm beginning to wonder if I can ever write a novel or something, because no matter what I come up with, I'll rip someone off. The writing world is a minefield of plagarism and I'm worried it's gonna get me.

Why do people like cliches so, when they plagarize other people's work? People murder over plagarism!
Originality is dead.
You're always, always ripping of somebody, even if you don't know it, even if nobody knows and only the author has read his writings.

:smalltongue::smallannoyed:

[RS14]

I'm honestly not sure if this is an elaborate joke or not. I guess I'll bite.

Embrace cliches; they're cliches because they've been used by many authors. Besides, no work is simply one huge cliche. They're conglomerations of bits and pieces inspired by other works. There is a vast difference between plagiarism and inspiration. Seriously, I've got a book around here that's literally word for word copied from an encyclopedia I've got. That's plagiarism. Inspiration is a tool of nearly every author. Unless you take the majority of your cliches and plot point from a single work, you should be fine.

[Taliesan]

Some words on plagarism:

It isn't when you use an idea that is already in print. Nor is it using common turns of phrase. The latter is just common English and the former? Nothing is ever entirely original. Even derivative characters aren't actually plagarism - most of the time they are just bad writing.

It is when you start ripping things off wholesale. For example, borrowing whole paragraphs from other works without attributing them, or stealing an idea and adding nothing to it while claiming it as your own.

Most of the great writers in history used ideas that were already all around them, Tolkien borrowed heavily from European myth and lightly from African (Gollum is essentially a tokolosjie) but his work is considered original because of how he brought together the various ideas of the various myths and made his own story, and his own setting.

Even most published modern high fantasy, which is very derivative of Tolkien, may take a lot of inspiration from Tolkien, but isn't acually plagarised. Eragon is uncreative, derivative, Jerkass Stu driven dreck that amounts to an unholy threesome between Star Wars, Dragon Riders of Pern and the Lord of the Rings, but it isn't actually plagarism.

So don't stress about it too much if you plan on writing fiction. Write in your own words, with your own ideas on how things work. If you aren't trying to steal someone else's work, generally you won't do it accidentally.

[dish]

Plag-I-A-rism. Plagiarism. Please. I know it's a hard word to spell, but TheCountAlucard got it right, and so can you.

If it's academic writing, just make sure you write the footnotes or references for any quotations into your paper at the same time as you write the quotation. Then you won't forget them. If you're not quoting, make sure you completely re-write anything in your own words (and give credit for ideas that are not your own, eg, "As Dr Skinner asserts....,". If you're worried, run a few chunks of your paper through google before you hand it in, that should pick up on any similarities between your work and something that's been published (use google scholar if you're worried about academic papers).

In creative writing - just write it in your own words. If you're totally worried that you've actually written something that you remembered hearing / reading years ago (it happened to Helen Keller, it could happen to you), again, use google, and if it seems too similar to something, then change it.

As many have noted, you can use the same ideas or themes as others before you, just as long as it's your own approach to the topic, and your own words.

[Taliesan]

Some words on plagiarism:

It isn't when you use an idea that is already in print. Nor is it using common turns of phrase. The latter is just common English and the former? Nothing is ever entirely original. Even derivative characters aren't actually plagiarism - most of the time they are just bad writing.

It is when you start ripping things off wholesale. For example, borrowing whole paragraphs from other works without attributing them, or stealing an idea and adding nothing to it while claiming it as your own.

Most of the great writers in history used ideas that were already all around them, Tolkien borrowed heavily from European myth and lightly from African (Gollum is essentially a tokolosjie) but his work is considered original because of how he brought together the various ideas of the various myths and made his own story, and his own setting.

Even most published modern high fantasy, which is very derivative of Tolkien, may take a lot of inspiration from Tolkien, but isn't acually plagiarised. Eragon is uncreative, derivative, Jerkass Stu driven dreck that amounts to an unholy threesome between Star Wars, Dragon Riders of Pern and the Lord of the Rings, but it isn't actually plagiarism.

So don't stress about it too much if you plan on writing fiction. Write in your own words, with your own ideas on how things work. If you aren't trying to steal someone else's work, generally you won't do it accidentally.

[dish]

I'm just going to repeat one thing, cos it's now down at the bottom of page one: P-L-A-G-I-A-R-I-S-M. I know it's a hard word to spell, but, come on, make your English teacher proud.

[Taliesan]

Zousha Omenohu

As to your examples: Copying the Faerie queen? Well that is why you need a proof-reader.

Mordor is a geographic archtype that actually predates Mordor. It is the evil industrial area - essentially the end result of some "Satanic mills." It is a touch of a cliche, but then just about every possible geographic setting you are going to find. It is almost a trope that with great evil, comes great deforestation.

King Arthur is not just an archtype, he is actually a convention verging on being a genre in and of himself. If one writes a story where the king is essentially King Arthur, one could actually take it that you are writing another take on the myth.

Also, recognise that there are several different King Arthurs. There is the king who came to power as a child, who did the best he could even as his youthful indescretions led to his downfall, the redneck who schtupped his sister, the older, wiser man who knew his kingdom was doomed, the last remnant of Rome (Who I still see as being Uther), the Christian, the Pagan, the atheist who sought to keep the religious sweet, the theocrat or the secularist?

The beauty of myth is that you really can take stories which have existed for millenia and present them the way you want to. Rosemary Suthcliff made her writing career on adapting myths - my favourite one of hers being Tristan and Iseult (She leaves out the love potion and makes it a better story for it), and other writers have done precisely the same.

Don't be afraid of myth and the characters in it, they are almost always the archtypes to later characters, frequently lasting precisely because the archtype works.

[Quorothorn]

...Durn it, Taliesan, here was me thinking I'd put it well, then you come along and trump me! :smalleek:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm just going to repeat one thing, cos it's now down at the bottom of page one: P-L-A-G-I-A-R-I-S-M. I know it's a hard word to spell, but, come on, make your English teacher proud.

Good God I can't even spell it right?! I really am a failure as an English major!

[averagejoe]

Good God I can't even spell it right?! I really am a failure as an English major!

Please. Some of the worst spellers I've known have been English majors. I'm mostly kept afloat by the spellcheckiness of Firefox and the polite chastisements of fellow forumers on the occasion when something slips through.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Since you don't seem to believe me, here's a sample of my prose from last year.

Half Elf, Half Dwarf

By Jacob Behnke (aka Zousha Omenohu, aka Me)

From the edge of the woods, Arctus looked across the large grassy meadow at the light flickering from the cabin window. He could see all between where he stood and home. The herdsmen had taken the sheep home by now. He had one rabbit with him and a whole lot of empty snares. There was no denying it. He just wasn’t meant to be a trapper. The locals said anyone with elven blood was a good hunter. But then the mostly human locals assumed that elves were better at everything, from hunting to singing to walking. What was that they always said? “Anything a man can do, an elf can do while balancing on a tightrope made with a single hair, and make it look sleeker and prettier at the same time!” But apparently trapping wasn’t one of those things. He couldn’t remember what he’d gotten mad about this time, but whenever he got angry, he’d go and check the snares. They were normally empty, but today there was at least one rabbit kind enough to walk into his snare.

He rubbed his chin. It felt scruffy. Would that beard ever grow? Then maybe people would stop comparing him with his father. That was one thing elves didn’t do better. They couldn’t grow beards. That’s what dwarves did best. Sure dwarves were superior craftsmen, and their armies were second to none, but that meant nothing to some rural village on the edge of the woods. Arctus often wondered how his mother’s people lived in their hand-carved caves. What could drive them out of the sun’s light? And why had Mother left that life to be with Father? The townsfolk used to scratch their heads when they saw Arctus’s mother. Didn’t dwarf women have beards too? Then as he stepped from the grass to the muddy path leading to town his mind returned to a familiar question. One that had stuck in his mind since he’d first learned what a half-breed was. Why did Mother and Father get married? Elves didn’t breed outside their own kind except with humans. Elves considered humans the closest thing they had to equals, and humans as a whole seemed to be able to breed with anything! Why’d his father pick a dwarf when there were many eligible human girls in town? It was a question Father had never deigned to answer.

He realized he’d been standing there in the middle of the path longer than he thought. His cheeks immediately flushed. Standing around like an idiot when he had to get home. The sun was starting to set. It’d be dark by the time he got home. Arctus started to cross the meadow, trying his hardest not to think. He’d been doing a lot of that lately, trying to keep himself from thinking about his life. It seemed like everyone in town looked at him funny. It’s not like half-elves themselves were uncommon. By every god and his grandmother, there were a few in town! But even they viewed him as some kind of freak, always comparing Arctus’s mother with their human mothers or fathers. No elf sired children with a dwarf. It just wasn’t done. Humans were acceptable. Elves were tall, slim and “achingly beautiful,” as some milkmaid had once said about his father. Dwarves were short, tough and hairy. You didn’t see any of them around in the village. People said it was because there weren’t enough rocks in the area. As if it was his fault his parents had fallen in love. They’d been adventurers for years before they’d settled down and had him. They watched each other’s backs in fights against goblin raiding parties and mighty giants. He’d heard almost every epic poem and heroic ballad that the bards who passed through town each spring would tell. Two adventurers falling in love was something that happened all the time. So why didn’t Mother and Father’s marriage make sense? He looked down at the rabbit, hanging by the ears where he’d tied it to his belt. It was big and fat, with a very soft light brown coat. Not a bad catch, actually. Another pelt to go on the pile for market later that season.

He started walking again, his boots leaving deep prints in the muddy trail. His mind wandered to the first time Father had taken him hunting. The first time when he felt his ambitions were never going to be recognized. It was summer, and he was still young, even by human standards. The day was hot, but comfortably dry. Father was teaching him how to set a snare. It had taken a few tries, but he’d finally gotten it right. Then Father told him all he had to do was wait. Arctus sat in the bushes for hours staring at the snare. Every so often some small animal would come and sniff at the bait, but then would leave. He finally got tired of waiting and smashed the snare in frustration. Father had laughed. He’d said he’d forgotten that Arctus wasn’t as patient as he was. “Patience for an elf,” his mother’d often said, “is a day longer than anyone else’s.” He asked when he’d be able to use a bow, or even a sword, like he’d seen over the mantle. Father said he didn’t use his bow for this kind of hunting. “That’s only for bigger game, like deer. There aren’t any deer in this part of the woods. You don’t need a bow to hunt rabbits and squirrels.”

Of course, Arctus had seen deer in the woods before. Some of the other huntsmen in the village would come back with large deer, and then they’d sell the venison at the market. Father just didn’t try hard enough, he figured. The sword was not something to get excited over, Father had told him. “It belonged to your mother’s grandfather, Gardus Citadelsmasher. He was the leader of your mother’s clan. She was granted it by Gardus himself when she left to join our little band of adventurers. It’s all she has to remind her of home.” Arctus wondered what good a sword was if it wasn’t used? The sword wasn’t some kind of decoration. He’d seen the nicks on the blade, the faded stains of some beast’s blood. This sword had seen battle. Neither Mother nor Father had said whether it was magical or not. Mother commented that if it were magic, it’d have been sold long ago. But Arctus wasn’t convinced. There was a sense of wonder he felt every time he looked at it. That kind of wonder didn’t come from any ordinary blade. None of the stories were like that.

Arctus didn’t understand why Mother and Father weren’t comfortable telling him about adventuring when he was a boy, but he figured he understood why now. Before it had been so he wouldn’t wander off on some “adventure” and get hurt. But now he was fully grown. Or at least he thought so. It was hard to tell with elves and dwarves, who consider puberty to be over at fifty. He was only in his twenties. He’d heard tales of half-breeds like him struggling to find acceptance and showing the world what they could do by becoming famous heroes. Of Dessan Urtagen, the son of an orcish warchief and a human peasant, who led an orc army and carved a kingdom that still stood today. Of Peralynn, the half-elf who overcame blindness and the close-minded elven community she lived in to become a famous mage. Of Jergan Stone-Eyes, a rare half-dwarf who became one of the greatest smiths of his time, creating swords that according to legend could cut through the very stone! The sun flared in his eyes. He was almost home. Why couldn’t he be some kind of hero? When Mother first told him not to touch the sword, he thought it was because he’d break it. Now he understood better. They didn’t want him to leave and become an adventurer. He’d told Mother about it the day he figured it out, and she told him it was true. “There are better ways to make a living than getting cut up and burned everyday for a few coins and an old helm or two.” He’d run out of the house after she said that. When she asked where he was going, he yelled back that he was going to check the snares. They were empty, as usual. What did they expect him to be? A trapper? Some trapper he was. Or maybe they’d give him the farm. But he’d never liked farm work. It moved too slowly for him, with the barley sprouting up and then getting hacked down and sprouting up again. He figured a few coins and an old helm or two would have been preferable to an empty snare or staring at a field waiting for it to grow. Why did they think he couldn’t handle the adventuring life?

He was halfway home, the barn well within view and the house starting to come into view. and he still hadn’t stopped thinking. He wanted to get out. Explore this vast world. Meet with wizards and kings and such. That’s how it’d always happened in the stories he’d heard. Every wandering performer seemed to know a different one, and Arctus had listened to each one passing through town. Adventurers wandering from place to place, fighting evil in caves and ruins and coming away rich with plunder, like Keldus Korran, the mercenary who’d fought for twenty three kings; Thomas Hannovershire, the thief who stole the crown of an emperor right off his head; or Saint Aravar Taerûn, the holy warrior who supposedly became an angel. He’d often daydreamed about being one of those heroes. A knight in polished armor one day, a mage with a powerful staff the next. He remembered how he used to go and watch the other children in the town pretend to be adventurers in the square. They never let him join. They told him all manner of excuses, usually involving what Mummy or Papa said to them. “My mum told me not to play with you. She said half-breeds had curses that you can catch.” Contagious curses. Who believed in those anymore? It was a good enough reason back then, but these same children were now grown men and women, like him, and they still avoided him. It seemed to him that being an adventurer was the only way he’d be able to get people to stop looking away when he went to help sell Father’s pelts. People bought them all the same, but they never stopped to talk. The ladies never gossiped with Mother. And yet life still went on as if nothing was wrong.

By now Arctus was at the fence gate. He was home. The lamps inside were lit. Sometimes when he was upset and he’d go to check the snares, and he wouldn’t be back until very late at night. More often than not, the lamps were already out when he got home, and the door would be locked, so he’d sleep in the loft of the barn. They were waiting for him tonight. What would he say to them when he came in with one rabbit? He stood still for what seemed like hours. Still, he had one rabbit. Most of the time he came home empty-handed. By every god and his grandmother! Maybe they’d be proud of him this time. Maybe this was just the start. Maybe next week there’d be two rabbits. Maybe he’d make it as a trapper. Feeling more proud of himself than he had for a while, he strode up to the door.

Sure enough, the door opened easily and there they were, sitting at the table. Mother, a short, plump woman with dark hair like Arctus’s, with strong hands that spoke of a lot of work with the men from the village she’d hired to help on the farm. Father, tall and lean, with an angular face and hair that was starting to go white. Arctus opened his mouth to apologize for being out so late, but Father raised a finger to his lips with a wry smile.

“I see you managed to make a catch!”

“Um, yes. It’s not much, but I think I’m starting to get the hang of it.”

“Ah, you had the hang of setting snares long ago. But now you’ve got some more patience to go with it.” He looked over at Mother. “I think he’s ready.”

“We have a present for you.” Mother said

“It’s not my birthday.”

“That doesn’t matter.” She handed him a long, thin object, wrapped in leather. Arctus slowly undid the binding; half-assuming what was in the parcel was some sort of farm tool or something. His eyes grew wide at the glint of polished metal beneath the leather. He looked over at the mantle, now bare, and then at what he was unwrapping.

“Your mother and I spent some time talking after you left. We know you’ve had your eye on this for a long time.”

“I. . .I guess so.”

“I think you understand why.” Mother said.

“I’ve never really liked the quiet around here. I wanted something more. And I thought this thing was it.”

“One sword doesn’t make you a hero, Arctus.” Mother told him, her face serious. “Your father and I went through many hardships before we settled down. We lost a lot of friends throughout our lives, and we took countless more lives.” She looked over at the half-unwrapped package. “The life of an adventurer is hard, gritty and sad when compared with the easy life we have here.”

“But we can’t hold you back forever,” Father continued. “There comes a time when you should be making your own decisions. And this day, I think you’ve proven that you have a little less recklessness than you had when you started setting snares. And you’re learning more and more not to take heed of what simple folk think when they see you as strange.

“I know you must not think much of us for what we are, but you’ve got the best of both of us.”

“You have always wished for a chance to prove you are something more than the sum of your parts.” Father said. “Now, with this, you have that chance.” An ecstatic grin spread across Arctus’s face, and he grabbed his parents and hugged them more strongly than he’d ever done before in his life. He’d leave and go hunting tomorrow. But this time, it’d be goblins instead of rabbits.

My prof said I'm very comfortable in this genre and that I have a strong knowledge of the conventions of the genre, but I feel like it's just a crappy Tolkien, Weis and Hickman, Lewis and Anthony ripoff. Everyone's played the half-breed struggling for acceptance card!

I even ripped off Irving Berlin's song "Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better!"

What's wrong with me?!

[Kaihaku]

Everyone, no matter how talented, draws on other sources to stimulate and frame their creative energies. The most ancient of artists drew directly on nature. It is something to be aware of. The key is that there is a difference between emulation and inspiration. If you blatantly copy someone else then that's something to be ashamed of... If you are inspired by someone else then that's something differently altogether. Stereotypes, cliches, are stereotypes, cliches, for a reason. Don't be afraid to use them but when you use them inject something of yourself into them, reshape them as only you personally can, then I suspect that you'll find that even the most cliche plot suddenly has a new and vibrant feel to it. The half-breed, the bastard, the cursed are powerful cliches because they connect with something in most people, there's nothing wrong with using that, just make it your own.

Anyway, that's my two-cents.

[Innis Cabal]

If we can't joke about serious matters, what can we joke about?

Puffins :smallannoyed:

[Quorothorn]

Puffins :smallannoyed:

I love puffins. Puffins are awesome.

[TheBST]

What's wrong with me?!

...you're just starting out at writing, that's what. Since you're not a prodigy at this (sorry), it's going to take more time to sharpen your skills and develop your own style.

Plus, sci-fi and fantasy are supposed to be the genres where you can let your imagination out it's cage completely- if you don't want to be like the writer's you mentioned, then avoid the kind of creatures, cultures and settings they use.

[Lord Herman]

Puffins :smallannoyed:

No. Puffins are serious business.

[averagejoe]

Since you don't seem to believe me, here's a sample of my prose from last year.

I've seen far, far, worse. It wasn't great, but it wasn't actually bad either, and hope is definitely in sight. You seem to have a fair grasp of writing, though you do tend to drift a bit into cliche (which isn't as bad as plagiarism, to be fair.) As for the matter itself-well, this is something I've struggled with myself. I sort-of solved it by sitting and thinking long and hard about it, but I suspect that you want a more immediate solution. I can only really offer two pieces of advice.

1) Try to broaden your horizons a bit. Try to write some non-fantasy. Don't worry too much about it sucking, just try to do things you haven't done before. Experiment. Leave your comfort zone (talk about cliche.) Again, don't worry too much about the quality. That's why it's experimenting, it doesn't have to be super-good.

2) Write something that you want to read. My best stories come from me thinking to myself, "This should happen. That would be a good story to read. Unfortunately it doesn't exist, so I can't read it. I should remedy this." If you want to write something good then don't be satisfied until it's a story you genuinely enjoy reading. Keep rewriting until you get to this point. Be forewarned, this can be a tedious and painful process.

Writing is a craft like any other. You don't start with masterpieces.

[kpenguin]

I'm pretty sure Tolkien, Shakespeare, Milton, Caroll, and Spenser never did stuff like that!

Tolkein? Most of his work is influenced by a great many things, from Norse Mythology to Beowulf. His elves and dwarves are obviously adapted from mythology, for instance.

Shakespeare too borrowed. Almost all of his plays are adaptations of other works. Othello, for instance, was based on "Un Capitano Moro", a short story by the Italian writer Cinthio.

Milton? One of his most famous works, Paradise Lost, is essentially a Biblical fanfic.

Caroll and Spenser I'm not very familiar with, but I'm sure a closer examination would yield similar results. Nearly everything is derivative of each other. The parts of each story are the same. It is how the parts interact and are organized is what makes each story unique.

[turkishproverb]

Heck, Shakespeare stole most of his plots from Marlowe.

[Lord Herman]

Uh, guys kpenguin? I think Zousha was being sarcastic.

...unless you're being sarcastic too. But in that case, this post is ironic, which is nice too.


v, better? :smalltongue:

[turkishproverb]

I was only responding to kpenguin.

[kpenguin]

If he was being sarcastic, I don't know what point he was trying to make.

He does seem to be a bit hysterical, though.

[toasty]

Text and comments on it in spoilers:

From the edge of the woods, Arctus looked across the large grassy meadow at the light flickering from the cabin window. He could see all between where he stood and home. The herdsmen had taken the sheep home by now. He had one rabbit with him and a whole lot of empty snares. There was no denying it. He just wasn’t meant to be a trapper. The locals said anyone with elven blood was a good hunter. But then the mostly human locals assumed that elves were better at everything, from hunting to singing to walking. What was that they always said? “Anything a man can do, an elf can do while balancing on a tightrope made with a single hair, and make it look sleeker and prettier at the same time!” But apparently trapping wasn’t one of those things. He couldn’t remember what he’d gotten mad about this time, but whenever he got angry, he’d go and check the snares. They were normally empty, but today there was at least one rabbit kind enough to walk into his snare.

Okay… this is an interesting intro. First off, there is a fragment. I hate unnecessary fragments. You do a good job of remaining in the active voice, something I have yet to master.

He rubbed his chin. It felt scruffy. Would that beard ever grow? Then maybe people would stop comparing him with his father. That was one thing elves didn’t do better. They couldn’t grow beards. That’s what dwarves did best. Sure dwarves were superior craftsmen, and their armies were second to none, but that meant nothing to some rural village on the edge of the woods. Arctus often wondered how his mother’s people lived in their hand-carved caves. What could drive them out of the sun’s light? And why had Mother left that life to be with Father? The townsfolk used to scratch their heads when they saw Arctus’s mother. Didn’t dwarf women have beards too? Then as he stepped from the grass to the muddy path leading to town his mind returned to a familiar question. One that had stuck in his mind since he’d first learned what a half-breed was. Why did Mother and Father get married? Elves didn’t breed outside their own kind except with humans. Elves considered humans the closest thing they had to equals, and humans as a whole seemed to be able to breed with anything! Why’d his father pick a dwarf when there were many eligible human girls in town? It was a question Father had never deigned to answer.

This is… well… kinda bad, IMO. Weak content that is. It does the job of giving our character some background, but its well… I think the best thing to say is that I don’t like it. I don’t like the intro in particular… those first three sentences probably should be one. Do that and I’d be happy. The rest is content vs. grammar, so I think its up to you to fix that.[/red]

He realized he’d been standing there in the middle of the path longer than he thought. His cheeks immediately flushed. Standing around like an idiot when he had to get home. The sun was starting to set. It’d be dark by the time he got home. Arctus started to cross the meadow, trying his hardest not to think. He’d been doing a lot of that lately, trying to keep himself from thinking about his life. It seemed like everyone in town looked at him funny. It’s not like half-elves themselves were uncommon. By every god and his grandmother, there were a few in town! But even they viewed him as some kind of freak, always comparing Arctus’s mother with their human mothers or fathers. No elf sired children with a dwarf. It just wasn’t done. Humans were acceptable. Elves were tall, slim and “achingly beautiful,” as some milkmaid had once said about his father. Dwarves were short, tough and hairy. You didn’t see any of them around in the village. People said it was because there weren’t enough rocks in the area. As if it was his fault his parents had fallen in love. They’d been adventurers for years before they’d settled down and had him. They watched each other’s backs in fights against goblin raiding parties and mighty giants. He’d heard almost every epic poem and heroic ballad that the bards who passed through town each spring would tell. Two adventurers falling in love was something that happened all the time. So why didn’t Mother and Father’s marriage make sense? He looked down at the rabbit, hanging by the ears where he’d tied it to his belt. It was big and fat, with a very soft light brown coat. Not a bad catch, actually. Another pelt to go on the pile for market later that season.

He started walking again, his boots leaving deep prints in the muddy trail. His mind wandered to the first time Father had taken him hunting. The first time when he felt his ambitions were never going to be recognized. It was summer, and he was still young, even by human standards. The day was hot, but comfortably dry. Father was teaching him how to set a snare. It had taken a few tries, but he’d finally gotten it right. Then Father told him all he had to do was wait. Arctus sat in the bushes for hours staring at the snare. Every so often some small animal would come and sniff at the bait, but then would leave. He finally got tired of waiting and smashed the snare in frustration. Father had laughed. He’d said he’d forgotten that Arctus wasn’t as patient as he was. “Patience for an elf,” his mother’d often said, “is a day longer than anyone else’s.” He asked when he’d be able to use a bow, or even a sword, like he’d seen over the mantle. Father said he didn’t use his bow for this kind of hunting. “That’s only for bigger game, like deer. There aren’t any deer in this part of the woods. You don’t need a bow to hunt rabbits and squirrels.”

Of course, Arctus had seen deer in the woods before. Some of the other huntsmen in the village would come back with large deer, and then they’d sell the venison at the market. Father just didn’t try hard enough, he figured. The sword was not something to get excited over, Father had told him. “It belonged to your mother’s grandfather, Gardus Citadelsmasher. He was the leader of your mother’s clan. She was granted it by Gardus himself when she left to join our little band of adventurers. It’s all she has to remind her of home.” Arctus wondered what good a sword was if it wasn’t used? The sword wasn’t some kind of decoration. He’d seen the nicks on the blade, the faded stains of some beast’s blood. This sword had seen battle. Neither Mother nor Father had said whether it was magical or not. Mother commented that if it were magic, it’d have been sold long ago. But Arctus wasn’t convinced. There was a sense of wonder he felt every time he looked at it. That kind of wonder didn’t come from any ordinary blade. None of the stories were like that.

[color=RED]THIS. This is good. This is good stuff man. I like the sword stuff… unbelief that mundane objects are special. The father/mother stuff is good too. I like it.

Arctus didn’t understand why Mother and Father weren’t comfortable telling him about adventuring when he was a boy, but he figured he understood why now. Before it had been so he wouldn’t wander off on some “adventure” and get hurt. But now he was fully grown. Or at least he thought so. It was hard to tell with elves and dwarves, who consider puberty to be over at fifty. He was only in his twenties. He’d heard tales of half-breeds like him struggling to find acceptance and showing the world what they could do by becoming famous heroes. Of Dessan Urtagen, the son of an orcish warchief and a human peasant, who led an orc army and carved a kingdom that still stood today. Of Peralynn, the half-elf who overcame blindness and the close-minded elven community she lived in to become a famous mage. Of Jergan Stone-Eyes, a rare half-dwarf who became one of the greatest smiths of his time, creating swords that according to legend could cut through the very stone! The sun flared in his eyes. He was almost home. Why couldn’t he be some kind of hero? When Mother first told him not to touch the sword, he thought it was because he’d break it. Now he understood better. They didn’t want him to leave and become an adventurer. He’d told Mother about it the day he figured it out, and she told him it was true. “There are better ways to make a living than getting cut up and burned everyday for a few coins and an old helm or two.” He’d run out of the house after she said that. When she asked where he was going, he yelled back that he was going to check the snares. They were empty, as usual. What did they expect him to be? A trapper? Some trapper he was. Or maybe they’d give him the farm. But he’d never liked farm work. It moved too slowly for him, with the barley sprouting up and then getting hacked down and sprouting up again. He figured a few coins and an old helm or two would have been preferable to an empty snare or staring at a field waiting for it to grow. Why did they think he couldn’t handle the adventuring life?

He was halfway home, the barn well within view and the house starting to come into view. and he still hadn’t stopped thinking. He wanted to get out. Explore this vast world. Meet with wizards and kings and such. That’s how it’d always happened in the stories he’d heard. Every wandering performer seemed to know a different one, and Arctus had listened to each one passing through town. Adventurers wandering from place to place, fighting evil in caves and ruins and coming away rich with plunder, like Keldus Korran, the mercenary who’d fought for twenty three kings; Thomas Hannovershire, the thief who stole the crown of an emperor right off his head; or Saint Aravar Taerûn, the holy warrior who supposedly became an angel. He’d often daydreamed about being one of those heroes. A knight in polished armor one day, a mage with a powerful staff the next. He remembered how he used to go and watch the other children in the town pretend to be adventurers in the square. They never let him join. They told him all manner of excuses, usually involving what Mummy or Papa said to them. “My mum told me not to play with you. She said half-breeds had curses that you can catch.” Contagious curses. Who believed in those anymore? It was a good enough reason back then, but these same children were now grown men and women, like him, and they still avoided him. It seemed to him that being an adventurer was the only way he’d be able to get people to stop looking away when he went to help sell Father’s pelts. People bought them all the same, but they never stopped to talk. The ladies never gossiped with Mother. And yet life still went on as if nothing was wrong.

By now Arctus was at the fence gate. He was home. The lamps inside were lit. Sometimes when he was upset and he’d go to check the snares, and he wouldn’t be back until very late at night. More often than not, the lamps were already out when he got home, and the door would be locked, so he’d sleep in the loft of the barn. They were waiting for him tonight. What would he say to them when he came in with one rabbit? He stood still for what seemed like hours. Still, he had one rabbit. Most of the time he came home empty-handed. By every god and his grandmother! Maybe they’d be proud of him this time. Maybe this was just the start. Maybe next week there’d be two rabbits. Maybe he’d make it as a trapper. Feeling more proud of himself than he had for a while, he strode up to the door.

Sure enough, the door opened easily and there they were, sitting at the table. Mother, a short, plump woman with dark hair like Arctus’s, with strong hands that spoke of a lot of work with the men from the village she’d hired to help on the farm. Father, tall and lean, with an angular face and hair that was starting to go white. Arctus opened his mouth to apologize for being out so late, but Father raised a finger to his lips with a wry smile.

“I see you managed to make a catch!”

“Um, yes. It’s not much, but I think I’m starting to get the hang of it.”

“Ah, you had the hang of setting snares long ago. But now you’ve got some more patience to go with it.” He looked over at Mother. “I think he’s ready.”

“We have a present for you.” Mother said

“It’s not my birthday.”

“That doesn’t matter.” She handed him a long, thin object, wrapped in leather. Arctus slowly undid the binding; half-assuming what was in the parcel was some sort of farm tool or something. His eyes grew wide at the glint of polished metal beneath the leather. He looked over at the mantle, now bare, and then at what he was unwrapping.

“Your mother and I spent some time talking after you left. We know you’ve had your eye on this for a long time.”

“I. . .I guess so.”

“I think you understand why.” Mother said.

“I’ve never really liked the quiet around here. I wanted something more. And I thought this thing was it.”

“One sword doesn’t make you a hero, Arctus.” Mother told him, her face serious. “Your father and I went through many hardships before we settled down. We lost a lot of friends throughout our lives, and we took countless more lives.” She looked over at the half-unwrapped package. “The life of an adventurer is hard, gritty and sad when compared with the easy life we have here.”

“But we can’t hold you back forever,” Father continued. “There comes a time when you should be making your own decisions. And this day, I think you’ve proven that you have a little less recklessness than you had when you started setting snares. And you’re learning more and more not to take heed of what simple folk think when they see you as strange.

“I know you must not think much of us for what we are, but you’ve got the best of both of us.”

“You have always wished for a chance to prove you are something more than the sum of your parts.” Father said. “Now, with this, you have that chance.” An ecstatic grin spread across Arctus’s face, and he grabbed his parents and hugged them more strongly than he’d ever done before in his life. He’d leave and go hunting tomorrow. But this time, it’d be goblins instead of rabbits.

[color=RED]I liked it. It wasn’t really to special, it but was NICE. It was good. You’re a college student, and you may never make it as a writer, but that doesn’t mean you should feel like you’re a piece of crap writer. Work hard you’ll get published. It may never be LOTR or anything like that, but it’ll be writing that you should be proud of. I’ve written some pretty bad stories myself, most of it fanfic, but I’m proud of it. This is the level you’re at, accept that and decide that you need to improve, then, improve. That’s about all I can say.




My prof said I'm very comfortable in this genre and that I have a strong knowledge of the conventions of the genre, but I feel like it's just a crappy Tolkien, Weis and Hickman, Lewis and Anthony ripoff. Everyone's played the half-breed struggling for acceptance card!

Yep, they have. BUT… guess what? This is the first time I’ve heard of a half dwarf. I actually hated it at first, but by the end of the story, I’ve come to think it might work. It could be interesting, IMO.

I think the key to any cliché (and I garuntee you, you’ll use them.) is to make them your own. Reinvent them. This guy is looking for acceptance… so what if its cliche? Its cliche because EVERYONE looks for acceptance. Its just that we can easily see half-elves and the like wanting to be accepted, they being so different than us. I encourage it, especially if this is some of your first “good” writing (and yes, its good if its your best… if its not you’re best… then fine, whatever, but it’s still better than some people, I’m sure).

I don’t understand why you seem to have such a low opinion of yourself. I’m not the smartest guy on the block, above average intelligence, maybe, but I have my own issues keeping my from hitting the grade level needed to be considered “really” smart. At this point in my life I’m a horrid writer, possibly at the same level as you (though I will admit I still have 1 and ½ years of high school left… so that does give me a slight advantage). I think I have a chance of getting a few novels (or RPG books) out there. They’ll probably never make it big and I’m not trying to be the next Tolkien or any of the others big guys in the fantasy/sci-fi genre, but that’s not what I want. If that’s what you think you want, then go for it, but the chances of achieving such a high mark is slim at best.

[Jimorian]

You're worrying FAR too much about this. If you aren't going around downloading your papers from the internet and turning them in as your own, the issue just isn't going to come up.

For fiction, use whatever inspires you, just make sure you put your own spin on it somehow. A healthy dialog within a genre always has writers riffing and expanding on the work of their peers. Sometimes that's to build on what others have done, sometimes it's to present a counterpoint. When a new trend like cyberpunk or steampunk comes along, look how many people end up trying out their own versions and seeing what can be done within the sub-genre.

Ditto for cliches and tropes. Sometimes, you can use one as a shortcut to get your point across, other times, you want to set up what looks like a cliche just so you can subvert it later. Rich is very good at doing both in OOTS.

As for your own writing sample, it's pretty darn good. I edited a fantasy webzine for a while, so I've seen the full range of quality in my submission pile from dreck to professional, and I'd put your sample comfortably in the middle of the upper half. What makes me feel you have some nice potential beyond that, is that you're dealing with some of the deeper character issues in a realistic way that points to some good possibilities for growth and exploration.

So I repeat, don't worry about this so much. Cite your sources for your non-fiction papers, and write what YOU want to write for fiction (within the constraints of the assignment of course), and your natural creativity will bring enough newness to the material to avoid any problems.

[Grail]

Since you don't seem to believe me, here's a sample of my prose from last year.

Half Elf, Half Dwarf

<snip story>

My prof said I'm very comfortable in this genre and that I have a strong knowledge of the conventions of the genre, but I feel like it's just a crappy Tolkien, Weis and Hickman, Lewis and Anthony ripoff. Everyone's played the half-breed struggling for acceptance card!

I even ripped off Irving Berlin's song "Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better!"

What's wrong with me?!

I used to mod a GW fanfiction group on yahoo groups, long gone now - but the improvement i saw in people's writing on that was amazing. My suggestion is for you to join some writing groups. Post stuff up and take all the criticism that they can hand out on the chin and watch your skill improve.

Writing is like anything, you improve through practice.

Saying this, it seems that your problem isn't really the writing (and that's kind of your view as well), but having unique ideas. Well, being unique just isn't really going to be possible. I'd suggest trying to steer clear of the traditional concepts though.

Don't use Elves.
Don't use Dwarves.
Don't use Halflings.
Don't use Orcs or Goblins.
Don't use Dragons.

These are all staples and thus can be cliched. Even if you do put a unique twist on it, people will just see it as more of the same. So if you can stay away from them, you'll go well even if your plots aren't particularly original.

[Quincunx]

Plagiarism codes extend across universities. Maybe the lax ethos is confined to one department, but the law must be laid out to all.

[Taliesan]

I used to mod a GW fanfiction group on yahoo groups, long gone now - but the improvement i saw in people's writing on that was amazing. My suggestion is for you to join some writing groups. Post stuff up and take all the criticism that they can hand out on the chin and watch your skill improve.

Writing is like anything, you improve through practice.

Saying this, it seems that your problem isn't really the writing (and that's kind of your view as well), but having unique ideas. Well, being unique just isn't really going to be possible. I'd suggest trying to steer clear of the traditional concepts though.

Don't use Elves.
Don't use Dwarves.
Don't use Halflings.
Don't use Orcs or Goblins.
Don't use Dragons.

These are all staples and thus can be cliched. Even if you do put a unique twist on it, people will just see it as more of the same. So if you can stay away from them, you'll go well even if your plots aren't particularly original.

I think the classic races are cycling towards being useable again.

It is the "Dark" side that is getting hackneyed, the werewolves, the half-demons, the half-aliens, the vampires etc...

[kamikasei]

How does one get over such paranoia?

I suggest a bracing dose of dictionary.

Plagiarism is not unoriginality, it is theft: it is taking the work of another and passing it off as your own. I'm not sure I've ever heard the claim seriously leveled at a work of fiction that wasn't literally copying text verbatim or with minimal search-and replace. If you're writing a paper and you copy-paste something from another source without attribution, that's plagiarism. If you take the argument made in another paper and reword it so that someone else's work and thoughts are being presented as your own, that's plagiarism, though obviously harder to prove and/or precisely define.

If you write a story about a bunch of hubbits led by Frudu taking the Ming to Fount Gloom to cast it in to the Mire, you're plagiarising (or parodying). At that point, though, it gets real hard to say whether something is plagiarism or a derivative work. You may have copyright issues before you have academic honesty issues.

If you feel like a hack who can't come up with an original idea to save his life, well, sucks to be you and there are remedies for that which are outside the scope of this thread. But you're not going to get expelled for plagiarism for that reason. At worst you'll get flunked for being a crappy writer.

Feel better now?

(My point being: you probably think your writing is worse than it is. That aside, bad writing is something you can work on and improve. It's not an offense for which you will be punished, like plagiarism.)

[Canadian]

Don't worry about plagiarism. It will only be a problem if you write something that is incredibly successful. If you write something successful you'll make lots of money. Then you can fight the charge in court.

If you write something that nobody cares about or bothers to read the world won't care if it's copied word for word.

Just write what you want. The chances anyone will notice or care are the same as being struck by lightning.

[averagejoe]

Saying this, it seems that your problem isn't really the writing (and that's kind of your view as well), but having unique ideas. Well, being unique just isn't really going to be possible. I'd suggest trying to steer clear of the traditional concepts though.

Don't use Elves.
Don't use Dwarves.
Don't use Halflings.
Don't use Orcs or Goblins.
Don't use Dragons.

These are all staples and thus can be cliched. Even if you do put a unique twist on it, people will just see it as more of the same. So if you can stay away from them, you'll go well even if your plots aren't particularly original.

This does risk that the things that make your story "unique" are merely cosmetic. I've seen plenty of cliche, hackneyed stories that the writer thought was original because he/she invented a "new fantasy race," or monster or something. And even the race or monster wasn't very original.

Which isn't to say you should or shouldn't include the standard fantasy fare, just don't let your story rest on it.

[kamikasei]

Actually read the story.


My prof said I'm very comfortable in this genre and that I have a strong knowledge of the conventions of the genre, but I feel like it's just a crappy Tolkien, Weis and Hickman, Lewis and Anthony ripoff. Everyone's played the half-breed struggling for acceptance card!

The writing was fine. If it feels like a ripoff it's mostly because it was set in what seems like a standard D&D 3.5 kind of setting and therefore has a whole raft of racial and cultural cliches carried along from the outset.

Novelty is overrated - especially when you're learning. Writing is a craft as well as an art, and you should write a lot of "familiar" stories that follow themes or plots that are used and reused over and over all throughout the history of literature. If everything else is familiar, it's easier to tell if the specific thing you're trying to improve is getting better or not. Write hugely cliched noir mystery stories, and focus on getting the pacing right. When you're happy with the pacing, focus on characterization... and so on.

In this case my fear, were I in your shoes, would be that I was doing things a particular way not out of any necessity within the story itself but because that's simply how things were done in the sources I was drawing from. Of course it will seem unoriginal to you to have a world full of races straight out of the PHB with all their mannerisms present and correct.

Try writing more material either set in more familiar surroundings or with a narrower focus - or both. Write about a man's first morning in his hotel after being kicked out by his wife - totally mundane activities in a modern and normal setting, but focus on the significance and emotional impact for him. Write about an adventurer returning home to discover her father has died - don't even bother to address whether there are non-human races in the setting. Practice your fundamentals. Hone your craft. Build your more ambitious works on a solid foundation when you've found your voice.


I even ripped off Irving Berlin's song "Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better!"

It's called a "pop culture reference". Don't rely on them, don't use them inappropriately, but don't be afraid of them where a touch of humour is okay.

[Fiery Diamond]

But what if I write something and someone calls me on it? Any fantasy thing I write probably rips off Tolkien. I've tried writing non-fantasy fiction, but it's always sucked. My writing sucks!:smallfrown:

In addition to what many others have said, stop worrying about it. Also, while I wouldn't say "rips off Tolkien," I would say that the vast majority (not just over half) of modern fantasy is indebted to Tolkien's works. He practically redefined the fantasy genre.

And your prose, there, let me see...
-Gah! There are too many short sentences in the beginning!
-It's sort of "meh," I suppose, as far as language usage goes.
-The concept, however, is rather interesting.




Writing is like anything, you improve through practice.

Saying this, it seems that your problem isn't really the writing (and that's kind of your view as well), but having unique ideas. Well, being unique just isn't really going to be possible. I'd suggest trying to steer clear of the traditional concepts though.

Don't use Elves.
Don't use Dwarves.
Don't use Halflings.
Don't use Orcs or Goblins.
Don't use Dragons.

These are all staples and thus can be cliched. Even if you do put a unique twist on it, people will just see it as more of the same. So if you can stay away from them, you'll go well even if your plots aren't particularly original.

While following this advice may alleviate your phobia of plagiarism, by no means should you believe that it isn't possible to come up with really great stuff using any or all of these. He is incorrect that "people will see it as more of the same." Well, he is correct, but the "people" will not be "the majority of people," they'll be the people whose opinions you should ignore anyway. Especially when it comes to dragons, which have been a staple of fantasy since long before Tolkien. This advice-giver seems to misunderstand the concept of staples (hint - they aren't a bad thing). I think he also misunderstands the concept of a cliche.


This does risk that the things that make your story "unique" are merely cosmetic. I've seen plenty of cliche, hackneyed stories that the writer thought was original because he/she invented a "new fantasy race," or monster or something. And even the race or monster wasn't very original.

Which isn't to say you should or shouldn't include the standard fantasy fare, just don't let your story rest on it.

This is true. However, don't let this limit you and prevent you from making up your own fantasy races. I mean, just remember that almost nothing is completely original without influence from something else. I'm co-writing a story with a friend of mine that doesn't have the traditional fantasy races (but have written stories with them before) and instead has some I made up. However, I think if I describe them you can see how I was strongly influenced by other things in literature and culture.
Don't read this if you think that you will steal it. We're hoping to get the story published someday.

-Raptors: A flighted race with dragon-like wings and sharp, harsh, angled facial features. Their society is very strict, and their warriors, who are mainly female, are very strong and proud. They specialize in using triple-headed flails and a special kind of sword (which takes a while to describe, so I won't).
- Avians: A flighted race with bird-like wings and sharp, angled facial features; however, this race is much more exotically attractive. While their society is also rather strict, there is an emphasis on crusading for justice and on benevolence. They specialize with bows and certain kinds of swords.
- Tigren: A cat-like race with great agility and speed. They have retractable claws from their human hands and feet, as well as angled, pointed ears, fur-like hair on their faces and backs of their hands, and tails with fur-like hair. Their society is much more laid-back, with a more communal nature than a hierarchical one.
- Canian: Like the Tigren, but wolf-like instead of cat-like. They have heightened senses in exchange for not being as agile as the Tigren. Their society is hierarchical, but not rigid as the Raptors or Avians.
(PS. Please don't steal my stuff, we're hoping to get this story published someday.)

[Mauve Shirt]

Bah, plagiarism. In high school we had to use a website that detected plagiarism in our research papers. I got 5% off my final grade because the clause in one sentence was similar to a sentence from a website that I'd never visited.

[alchemyprime]

Dude it all depends on the tone of your work if you want to make something Tolkien-esque or not.

Want to mess with folks who thinks it's all identical to Tolkien? Toss in some obscure race or something.

I mean, most people who read my fantasy notice that it's Tolkien inspired by proxy: I read Drizzt and Cadderly before I read LOTR. When I read the novels set in Dark Sun, I watered at the mouth. "Hey you got your Dune in my LOTR!" It was fun. Mieville, Moorcock and Lovecraft I draw off of, as well as Eberron. Some people notice I draw off of old Hannah Barbara cartoons (mostly Thundarr the Barbarian and Johnny Quest) as well as comics (I reference the Green Lanterns with a knightly order that all weild magic hammers, the Order of the Bright Day). Hell, my formatting, depending on the story, is how Fritz Leiber or Terry Pratchett format. I look up to them for making a dark genre and making light stories set in it, albeit dry and sarcastic most of the time.

Yes, my worlds still have elves and dwarves and halflings and gnomes. But I also have hyper-evolved hamsters, wizards that are obsessed with numbers and money, steam powered tanks, sorcerers with their own individual kryptonites, maenads, Russian goblins, a god with MDPD (Multiple Disassociative Personality DIsorder), and a trio of albino brothers that all followed different paths: a philandering bard, a cynical assassin and a power mad sorcerer, all cliched but I make fun of the cliches.

That's not to look at my super-hero or science fiction works. My sci-fi worlds are dystopian and utopian at the same time due to the constructs of individual characters (I like psychobabble!) and the technology I'm featuring (and technobabble!). My super-hero worlds... one of my main heroes is a Silver Age and a deconstruction at the same time. The hero who does not have the physique for it, in his own nerdy growing up story. Geez, I even have him aware of the scenarios he goes through and having him name the tropes behind them.

Sample dialogue:

Marty, Ozzy, Cain and David all sat down and looked to Steve.

"Okay," David started off. "You figured out all our identities and told us you were Photostorm. I can accept that. You built a tank out of a riding mower. I can kind of accept that. But why are you fighting crime instead of... I dunno... solving cancer? Eliminating global warming? Solving the energy crisis? SOMETHING?"

Steve smirked. "You're the guy who can make machines do anything. I just tinker. From the sound of it we both suffer from a horrible case of Reed-Richards-Is-Useless Disorder, or RRIUD for short."

"Wait... what?" Ozzy asked, trying desperately to slow down.

"Not important. Just something I'm trying to figure out myself. Now, about the rags you all have been calling costumes..."



Okay that was me paraphrasing it. I don't have the real draft in front of me. Still it is plagarism (i think) only if you blatantly rip something off whole cloth. Like just because I have elves does not mean I rip off TOlkien. But I do know that he is the grandaddy of them all for most writers.

Wow... that was a tangent. I'ma go to the mall now.

[PhantomFox]

Not sure if this has been covered yet, but inspiration is different than plagiarism. Things have to be VERY similar to be plagiarism. Besides, to quote Solomon "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Anything anyone does is always INSPIRED by something else. It's almost literally impossible to think up an idea that no one else has thought of before: a new idea is often made up of old ideas put together in new ways.

So don't worry if sub-point F-36 is similar to Writer X. It's plagiarism is if every plot point, setting, and character is a blatant rip-off of someone else. Borrowing themes is okay, those are general enough and can be executed in a variety of ways. Borrowing ideas is fine.

Or to put it another way, if Eragon didn't get shut down for plagiarizing Star Wars, you should be fine.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Tolkein? Most of his work is influenced by a great many things, from Norse Mythology to Beowulf. His elves and dwarves are obviously adapted from mythology, for instance.

Shakespeare too borrowed. Almost all of his plays are adaptations of other works. Othello, for instance, was based on "Un Capitano Moro", a short story by the Italian writer Cinthio.

Milton? One of his most famous works, Paradise Lost, is essentially a Biblical fanfic.

Caroll and Spenser I'm not very familiar with, but I'm sure a closer examination would yield similar results. Nearly everything is derivative of each other. The parts of each story are the same. It is how the parts interact and are organized is what makes each story unique.

I wasn't saying they borrowed. That statement was in response to PirateJesus's statement about various drugs or other such things that supposedly stimulate creativity.

Caroll is Lewis Caroll. You know, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland? And Spenser's most famous work is The Faerie Queene, a seven book epic poem discussing the virtues of knighthood and other moral fables. Book I contains a version of the St. George and the Dragon story. It found favor with Queen Elizabeth.

[Grail]

While following this advice may alleviate your phobia of plagiarism, by no means should you believe that it isn't possible to come up with really great stuff using any or all of these. He is incorrect that "people will see it as more of the same." Well, he is correct, but the "people" will not be "the majority of people," they'll be the people whose opinions you should ignore anyway. Especially when it comes to dragons, which have been a staple of fantasy since long before Tolkien. This advice-giver seems to misunderstand the concept of staples (hint - they aren't a bad thing). I think he also misunderstands the concept of a cliche.


100% incorrect.
Let me explain a couple things to you because I think you misunderstand quite a bit yourself.

He is not trying to write fiction for internet fanboyz who are merely concerned with a mutual love-fest. He is trying to write this stuff for his professor. That is the person who is likely to see it as more of the same, and therefore it is the sole person whose opinion he should be concerned with.

I've never mentioned Tolkien in this thread, don't know where you got that from....?

If I were to give you a Tennis ball, you'd think Tennis. Sure, you can play soccer with it, cricket, baseball, volleyball, handball, peg, but by default you think Tennis. The same is true with the staple races of fantasy literature. Now, like the Tennis ball, you can have the staple races doing something "unique" and "original", but one of the problems lots of people face when they use these species is getting caught up in the commonly accepted mythos or conventions. Ignore these races and you're more likely to move away from the standard archetypes.

This is not to say that once the writing improves that you cannot switch back to them. You have to remember that the OP was concerned about plagiarism, almost to the point of paranoia. This is going to effect his writing unless he does something about it. Moving away from conventions may not improve his writing, but it will help alleviate his concerns, and if he can get that under control the rest is likely to follow.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I already wrote this for my professor. I'm debating whether to show it to the general, fantasy-reading public, or try to get it published or something.

[Grail]

I already wrote this for my professor. I'm debating whether to show it to the general, fantasy-reading public, or try to get it published or something.

ARen't you writing more literature in your creative writing class?

As for getting it published, publish it yourself on a website. Easy as pie to do.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've already passed the Creative Writing Fiction class. I'm in a Creative Writing Poetry class now.

And I don't know the first thing about making my own website. I already put it up on DeviantArt though, and no one's ever noticed it.

[Grail]

It's really easy to write a website, and there are plenty of places to go to get free ones. try www.geocities.com for one.

If you are completely html-incapable, then you can simply write up a page in a Word document and save that as html. You'll not have all the fancy formating, and it'll look very basic, but at the end of the day what is important is the content, not the look.

[RPGuru1331]

Even if it happens to look exactly like the story in Book I of Spencer's The Faerie Queene? Or bears an eerie resemblance to Tolkien's Mordor? Or if the king character is a blatant copy of King Arthur?!

Okay. I'm going to make this easy for you.

Plagiarism requires word for word, or light paraphrasing. As an academic charge, it is different from IP theft.

IP theft can be pretty hard to stick in literature, in any real sense. It will be very difficult to commit a crime unknowingly. Just write.

[Quincunx]

. . .Ok, I finally flicked my eyes over the story in question. When your reviewer pre-GitP said it was "unoriginal", they probably meant "uninspired". The construction is solid in all respects, but it lacks a hook; I only flicked my eyes over it because nothing interested me enough to read it further. Now, my usual recommendation is to chop off the beginning and move it elsewhere, starting the story in medias res and making the reader want to read to figure out what's going on, but your opening is polished enough to remain right where it is. I suspect that whatever you have to learn isn't taught in fantasy writing, though. Sample writing in a different genre--not sci-fi--and use that genre's techniques to season your workmanlike words.

[Phaedra]

I wasn't saying they borrowed. That statement was in response to PirateJesus's statement about various drugs or other such things that supposedly stimulate creativity.

Oh, I don't know. If ever there was a book that made me think it was written by someone on LSD, it's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.

[Serpentine]

From my university website:


Academic Skills Office Fact Sheets
Avoiding plagiarism
What is plagiarism?
Plagiarism is using the work of other people without acknowledgement. Rules
about plagiarism apply to using text, tables and figures from all sources, e.g.,
books, journal articles, the Internet and magazines. Plagiarism can also apply
to spoken words; for instance, a radio broadcast or a lecture.
Plagiarism is a serious violation of academic values, with potentially serious
consequences, which are outlined in the UNE Policy Avoiding Plagiarism:
Information for Students.
1. Citing your source
Regardless of whether you have used direct or indirect quotations, you need
to acknowledge the source of the ideas you are using in your writing. This
is called in-text referencing. There are two main methods used for in-text
referencing used at UNE: the author-date system and the footnoting system.
See the ASO referencing handouts, and the UNE Referencing Guide.
2. Paraphrasing or using direct quotes
Paraphrasing means putting ideas and information from other sources into
your own words when writing an assignment. Clearly there may often be
technical or discipline-specific words that you cannot replace; however, the
sentence and paragraph structure must be your own. This is called
paraphrasing, and the resulting piece of text is an indirect quote.
Paraphrasing is easiest if you refer to a number of sources and try to draw out
the main concepts or information. These then may be compressed,
reorganised and words/word order changed so that the resulting text is in
YOUR voice. Try to avoid reliance on word-for-word paraphrasing involving
frequent resort to a Thesaurus; the resulting writing will probably sound stilted
and will not flow easily. See the “Paraphrasing and Summarising” ASO fact
sheet.
Paraphrasing is essential in academic writing, but may be supplemented by
occasional use of the exact words from a source such as a book, journal
article, web-site and so forth. This is called a direct quote, and you need to
indicate that these are not your words. You do this by enclosing the quote (if
short) in single inverted commas, or by indenting it and reducing line spacing
if it is longer than about 30 words. See the “Using Quotes” ASO handout.
To avoid inadvertently plagiarising you must always:
1: Cite your source, and
2: Either paraphrase or use a direct quote
Academic Skills Office Fact Sheets
Check your understanding of plagiarism
The following sentence is taken directly from Newble & Cannon (1989: 2).
‘Motivation is such a key factor that it appears to be more important in learning than
intelligence’.
Six possible ways to present this idea are given below. Try to work out which
are plagiarised, and which are acceptable. The answers are on the bottom of
this page.
1. Motivation is such a key factor that it appears to be more important in
learning than intelligence.
2. ‘Motivation is such a key factor that it appears to be more important in
learning than intelligence.’
3. ‘Motivation is such a key factor that it appears to be more important in
learning than intelligence’ (Newble & Cannon 1989:2).
4. According to Newble and Cannon (1989:2), ‘motivation is such a key
factor that it appears to be more important in learning than intelligence’.
5. A key factor in learning is motivation, which appears to be more
important than intelligence (Newble & Cannon 1989:2).
6. Motivation may be more critical than intelligence in learning (Newble &
Cannon 1989:2).
7. Newble and Cannon (1989:2) suggest that motivation may be more
critical than intelligence in learning.
References
Newble, D. & Cannon, R. 1989, A Handbook for Teachers in Universities and
Colleges, Kogan Page, London.
University of New England, Office of the Secretariat 2002, ‘Avoiding
Plagiarism: Information for Students’. Retrieved 18 Nov. 2002 from
http://www.une.edu.au/offsect/plagiarism_avoidance.htm
Answers
1. Not acceptable: Needs inverted commas to indicate direct quote, and source needs to
be cited
2. Not acceptable: Although direct quote is indicated, the source needs to be cited
3. Acceptable: Direct quote indicated and source cited.
4. Acceptable: Direct quote indicated and source cited.
5. Not acceptable: An attempt has been made to alter the words of the original, but it is
still too close to the source text.
6. Acceptable: Indirect quote with source cited
7. Acceptable: Indirect quote with source cited
For more information and practice in avoiding plagiarism, see
http://tlc.une.edu.au/interactive/workshops/writing/index.php

Academic Skills Office Fact Sheets
Avoiding plagiarism
What is plagiarism?
Plagiarism is using the work of other people without acknowledgement. Rules
about plagiarism apply to using text, tables and figures from all sources, e.g.,
books, journal articles, the Internet and magazines. Plagiarism can also apply
to spoken words; for instance, a radio broadcast or a lecture.
Plagiarism is a serious violation of academic values, with potentially serious
consequences, which are outlined in the UNE Policy Avoiding Plagiarism:
Information for Students.
1. Citing your source
Regardless of whether you have used direct or indirect quotations, you need
to acknowledge the source of the ideas you are using in your writing. This
is called in-text referencing. There are two main methods used for in-text
referencing used at UNE: the author-date system and the footnoting system.
See the ASO referencing handouts, and the UNE Referencing Guide.
2. Paraphrasing or using direct quotes
Paraphrasing means putting ideas and information from other sources into
your own words when writing an assignment. Clearly there may often be
technical or discipline-specific words that you cannot replace; however, the
sentence and paragraph structure must be your own. This is called
paraphrasing, and the resulting piece of text is an indirect quote.
Paraphrasing is easiest if you refer to a number of sources and try to draw out
the main concepts or information. These then may be compressed,
reorganised and words/word order changed so that the resulting text is in
YOUR voice. Try to avoid reliance on word-for-word paraphrasing involving
frequent resort to a Thesaurus; the resulting writing will probably sound stilted
and will not flow easily. See the “Paraphrasing and Summarising” ASO fact
sheet.
Paraphrasing is essential in academic writing, but may be supplemented by
occasional use of the exact words from a source such as a book, journal
article, web-site and so forth. This is called a direct quote, and you need to
indicate that these are not your words. You do this by enclosing the quote (if
short) in single inverted commas, or by indenting it and reducing line spacing
if it is longer than about 30 words. See the “Using Quotes” ASO handout.
To avoid inadvertently plagiarising you must always:
1: Cite your source, and
2: Either paraphrase or use a direct quote
Academic Skills Office Fact Sheets
Check your understanding of plagiarism
The following sentence is taken directly from Newble & Cannon (1989: 2).
‘Motivation is such a key factor that it appears to be more important in learning than
intelligence’.
Six possible ways to present this idea are given below. Try to work out which
are plagiarised, and which are acceptable. The answers are on the bottom of
this page.
1. Motivation is such a key factor that it appears to be more important in
learning than intelligence.
2. ‘Motivation is such a key factor that it appears to be more important in
learning than intelligence.’
3. ‘Motivation is such a key factor that it appears to be more important in
learning than intelligence’ (Newble & Cannon 1989:2).
4. According to Newble and Cannon (1989:2), ‘motivation is such a key
factor that it appears to be more important in learning than intelligence’.
5. A key factor in learning is motivation, which appears to be more
important than intelligence (Newble & Cannon 1989:2).
6. Motivation may be more critical than intelligence in learning (Newble &
Cannon 1989:2).
7. Newble and Cannon (1989:2) suggest that motivation may be more
critical than intelligence in learning.
References
Newble, D. & Cannon, R. 1989, A Handbook for Teachers in Universities and
Colleges, Kogan Page, London.
University of New England, Office of the Secretariat 2002, ‘Avoiding
Plagiarism: Information for Students’. Retrieved 18 Nov. 2002 from
http://www.une.edu.au/offsect/plagiarism_avoidance.htm
Answers
1. Not acceptable: Needs inverted commas to indicate direct quote, and source needs to
be cited
2. Not acceptable: Although direct quote is indicated, the source needs to be cited
3. Acceptable: Direct quote indicated and source cited.
4. Acceptable: Direct quote indicated and source cited.
5. Not acceptable: An attempt has been made to alter the words of the original, but it is
still too close to the source text.
6. Acceptable: Indirect quote with source cited
7. Acceptable: Indirect quote with source cited
For more information and practice in avoiding plagiarism, see
http://tlc.une.edu.au/interactive/workshops/writing/index.php
Summary: In academic writing, if you use something, reference it. If you quote something, reference it. If you don't use a direct quote, then reword it as completely as you can.
In fictional writing, it's a bit tougher. However, if you really are making something up yourself, you should be fine. Obtaining inspiration from other sources are fine.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

. . .Ok, I finally flicked my eyes over the story in question. When your reviewer pre-GitP said it was "unoriginal", they probably meant "uninspired". The construction is solid in all respects, but it lacks a hook; I only flicked my eyes over it because nothing interested me enough to read it further. Now, my usual recommendation is to chop off the beginning and move it elsewhere, starting the story in medias res and making the reader want to read to figure out what's going on, but your opening is polished enough to remain right where it is. I suspect that whatever you have to learn isn't taught in fantasy writing, though. Sample writing in a different genre--not sci-fi--and use that genre's techniques to season your workmanlike words.

So what you're saying is that it's okay, but bland? That it needs some more spice?:smallconfused:

[Jimorian]

So what you're saying is that it's okay, but bland? That it needs some more spice?:smallconfused:

What a story needs to go from "good writing" to something that's professionally publishable is always the million dollar question. Sometimes it's "spice", sometimes it's style, sometimes it's building a theme beneath the plot.

What a story needs to be beyond anything else is compelling. Grab the reader and never let go, never give them an excuse to stop reading. Because of this, a lot of people put too much emphasis on a "hook", and never develop anything about the story beyond that.

The closest I have to an answer I guess is a bit of the following. Writing a story is a constant balancing act between asking questions and answering them, between setting up reader expectations to either support or undermine. When you have the reader curious about what's beyond the next paragraph, page, chapter, then you're doing your job right.

To do this, you have to know what you want to accomplish with the story, and you have to have the tools necessary for the task. This is what Quincunx is talking about in trying out other genres. When you don't have familiar tropes and backgrounds to lean on, you start to figure out how to do the job in other ways, and hence add tools to your box.

Sometimes a story can't be "fixed" -- it just is what it is. Most of the time, it's just better to go write a new different story and pick up a few tricks and lessons from that. It's a lesson that a lot of writers never learn, and is a point of stubbornness in myself that I have to work to overcome.

A common meme is that a writer needs to write about a million words of "garbage" before they're ready for their good stuff to come out. While not completely true, you'll hear a lot of pros talking about how their first published novel was their 5th written or even more. This is also a very good way of "burning away" all of the derivative material from our brains.

BTW, how are you now on the whole plagiarism issue? Since you're not addressing that point anymore, I assume you're not as scared about it now?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I realize now I was overreacting...again.:smallsigh:

[Vella_Malachite]

AlchemyPrime: Hugs, man! You are officially my idol for the day. That synopsis was the best world concept I've heard for months!

Zousha: Yes. You are overreacting. It's been said time and time again that if you put a new spin on it, it's not plagiarism. Half-breed acceptance story is very common; half-elf, half-dwarf, however, is not.
After reading the story, I want to say that it isn't half bad. Not half bad at all. I love the concept; and I want to know where the character is going, what happens to him, and whether he still believes in the romance of adventure at the end.
It's mainly the language that needs polishing. The first few paragraphs, while good, were a bit guffy. Backstory can always be added later, you don't need to put it all in the first page.
As for the end of it, with the dialogue, think about the characters. One of the main issues I have with some writing is underdeveloped characters. Really think. What would they be doing? How would they say things? Are they making any gestures or body movements? Concentrate on what sort of language they would use. I find personality-profiling characters is a really good way of getting to know them. I, personally, have made myself a 30-40 question questionnaire that I fill in for all my characters. After that, I can refer back to it, and I know exactly what they would do in any given situation.

Hope that helps:smallsmile:. I'm not an expert or anything, and I'm not out of high school yet, but I''ve been obsessed with reading since I was three and with writing since I was six, so I kind of know my way around a page.
That's the only authority this is coming off...

[FdL]

To the OP:

Please correct the misspelling of the thread title. It's a single word and you wrote it wrong. I'm saying this for your benefit. It's hard to take the thread seriously otherwise.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I changed it. Is it correct now?

[FdL]

I changed it. Is it correct now?

Yes. Thanks a lot.

[Vaynor]

I think you're misinterpreting plagiarism. If you write a story with similar elements to say, Tolkien, it's not plagiarism. If you write down the same story but, again, change the names, it is. Just because someone has used it doesn't mean using it as well is plagiarism (if that makes sense).

A good rule of thumb is if you wrote it, it's most likely not plagiarism.

Edit: Another example is Eragon. That story is almost identical to Star Wars, but it's not plagiarism, because the writing is completely his own, the characters are new, etc. In short, some people may not respect your work as much if they don't believe it to be original (even if it is) but it's still not plagiarism.

[Mx.Silver]

In regard to Zousha:

I second what most others have said: you're probably worrying too much about this. I doubt you're going to get hit with accusations of plagiarism. Few people are. However the fact that you are concerned about whether your writing has too much similarity to that of others can actually be a positive. If you keep that factor in mind when you're writing you are less likely to accidentally borrow too much from your influences (there is absolutely nothing you can do about creating similarities with works you haven't encountered or aren't familiar with so it's not worth worrying about).

However, in regards to what I've read of your story: yes some aspects of it are derivative. It is set in what might as well be named 'Generic D&D World'. The fact that you have done so does suggest that world-building may not be an area that interests you much. I'd second suggestions that you read different genres as well but I would at the same time be interested in hearing about what kind of authors you personally consider influences or your favourites (because the latter are frequently going to be the former, even if you aren't always aware of it). Specifically how much falls outside the Swords and Sorcery subgenre. It may also help to cut back on the D&D.


Oh, I don't know. If ever there was a book that made me think it was written by someone on LSD, it's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
Carroll did actually take ideas for the book from experiences he'd had while on opium, irrc. There's also the whole peadophilia thing but the less said about that the better.