OOTS #622 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Assassin89]

Looks like we are seeing what Belkar was doing during that time. More conflicts between Celia and Haley arise.

[bue52]

Cool, great comic! I think the Celia hate is gonna intensify. And Belkar is....... yeah, kinda typical, though I didn't expect it.

[UncleWolf]

And Belkar still tops the list as my favorite.

[Brett Wong]

Haha, good ol' Belkar. I've really been feeling alot of celia hate lately

[Quorothorn]

Wow, I don't think I've ever been so early in reading a new strip. Sweet.

*Begins signing "A Mighty Halfling is Our Belkar".*

Edit: Also, was Mr. Burlew reading the forums, or did he just call the reaction?

[Lunaya]

Wow. Hours of screaming and they got nowhere? Sounds like the U.S. Senate. :smallamused:

Seriously, Haley. Just tell her about your father already.

[Theodoriph]

*giggles* A solo adventure and joining the quest....I'm going to have to use that line some time.

[BigFatLion]

Oh, you don't let the lady go Solo Belkar. It's bad form...

[PhantomFox]

Hmm, this one seemed like a lull in the story. A transition comic if you will. But a transition to what I wonder?

[Rutskarn]

I fear that certain entities now have grounds to sue or incarcerate Mr. Burlew for the crime of innuendo abuse.

I think it might be 25-Life in some states.

[Blanth]

Neat! I got a RSS notice the new strip was posted before it was linked in the navigation sidebar.

Also, now I want a pastrami on rye with pickles. :smallannoyed:

[Lamech]

Belkar for the win!

[Quorothorn]

Hmm, this one seemed like a lull in the story. A transition comic if you will. But a transition to what I wonder?

Good question, that. I'm going to jump on Argall's train and say that the next comic will shift the scene. I say we're going back to the fleet.

[Shadic]

It's nice to get a new strip, but ugh, with all the hope of things happening I'm getting impatient for Roy to come back.

[bibliophile20]

Okay, the Belkster cranks it up another notch... and carves another notch.

And even though I have some liking for Celia, I think she went way over the line. But it doesn't look like Hayley told her why she needs the money yet, so perhaps she'll change her tune when she finds out about Hayley's father (if she doesn't, perhaps citing "he's still alive. these people you killed aren't, and they'll stay that way if they aren't raised soon," then I'll start petitioning for another love interest for Roy, because that's too cold).

[NeonRonin]

Heh. Belkar, livin' large and in charge at the Guildhouse.

And while I've tried to give the benefit of the doubt, I must confess. Celia is really starting to annoy me now. Could SOMEBODY bean that girl with a +2 Clue-by-Four?

(Of course, Haley not mentioning her dad is just exacerbating it...)

Wonder what Roy might have to say once he's up and active again.

[Teatime]

Good question, that. I'm going to jump on Argall's train and say that the next comic will shift the scene. I say we're going back to the fleet.

Or another rendezvous with Team Evil who we haven't seen in almost 100 strips. With the resurrection of Roy now so close at hand, Team Evil's gonna have to get a move in lest the Order actually gain a significant advantage by heading for the next gate first.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Oh, you don't let the lady go Solo Belkar. It's bad form...

Are you trying to tell Belkar how to treat his woman? That's...doubleplusunwise, I tells ya.

[DragoonKain]

Belkar: Two for me. None for you.

Twix!

[xyzzy]

Ah, the good old mysteriously clingy bed sheet. Given how Belkar's apparently been spending his time, why exactly does Jenny feel the sheet necessary? (Yes, I know, it's the whole "the readers are watching her", but that doesn't explain her motives.)

Jenny's comment reminds me of a wonderful experience with a group I was in --- I was playing a bartender with high perform (comedy), and as the rest of the party is returning to the bar to celebrate the death of a troll (which no one knew really existed until this event). A man in the bar turns to one of the girls in our group and asks her if she'd be interested in "slaying another troll" with him. I turn to the back room, a streetcat-slaughterhouse/food-prep room where a short but enormous man named Demetri is killing whatever meat he can get his hands on. "Hey, Demetri," I say, and after he enters the room, covered in blood and things possibly originating from something that was alive minutes before, I finish: "there's someone here who wants help slaying a troll!"

That was longer than I intended, especially since the entire thing was "ha ha D&D innuendo funny story scary axe guy". Oh well.

Nice comic, by the way :smallbiggrin:

[Ganurath]

That's...doubleplusunwise, I tells ya.Doubleplusunsmart, Ray. Doubleplusunwise is ungood newspeak.

As for the comic itself, I think Haley would explain all the details of what Celia has done during those hours of screaming, and since nothing was resolves, we can assume Celia was unapologetic. Point for the Celia Unfanclub!

[Deathslayer7]

Belkar is the best. :smallbiggrin:

[lothos]

Rich has a great talent for surprising me (and I think most of his other readers). I just get the feeling the Roy's resurrection isn't perhaps as close to hand as we expect. There is SURE to be some kind of complication, probably with great humorous impact.

Perhaps a cutaway... team evil (and Maybe O'Chul (yay !)) or Maybe the Linear Guild.... or who knows what else. I just have the feeling that whatever I expect it won't be that simple and it will be a lot funnier than anything predicted so far.

I wonder about how the guild knows what they are entitled to 50% of..... for example all that dragon treasure that was destroyed in the INN explosion leading to all the cryptograms. First off, it's gone so there's a problem giving them 50%. More importantly who would tell them about it.

I can see Haley having a conversation with Hank like this:

Hank - so how much have you earned since you left the guild ?
Haley - errr, what's the lowest figure you would believe ?

Great series of recent strips recently in general.

[Gloverboy]

Ah, its good to be Belkar.

[Red XIV]

Good question, that. I'm going to jump on Argall's train and say that the next comic will shift the scene. I say we're going back to the fleet.
Possible. But since Unnamed Cleric of Loki finished the Sending to Durkon, he and Elan probably wouldn't be on the Azurite fleet for much longer.

Though whether they can get to Greysky quickly, of course, depends on whether there are any wizards still alive there who can cast Teleport.

[SinsI]

Ah, the good old mysteriously clingy bed sheet. Given how Belkar's apparently been spending his time, why exactly does Jenny feel the sheet necessary? (Yes, I know, it's the whole "the readers are watching her", but that doesn't explain her motives.)
She is trying to seduce him - half naked is sexier than nude.
Bonus for more WOW references.

[Doug Lampert]

Wow. Hours of screaming and they got nowhere? Sounds like the U.S. Senate. :smallamused:

Seriously, Haley. Just tell her about your father already.

Logically that shouldn't really matter. Most of the dead had nothing to do with Haley's father except very indirectly, some may have supported him. She's not stealing gold from anyone responsible for what happened to her father either. You needing money to pay blackmail doesn't justify you robbing me.

The Good response if she's all that worried about her father would be to go where he is and at least try to break him out. At one point she was even a member of a high level adventuring party willing and able to teleport to rescue member's family members, and didn't bother to mention her father to any of them. That's the same father she's planning to charge 10% of his lifetime earnings in exchange for ransoming him.

If Durkon manages to arrange to Teleport in then diverting to rescue her father directly again becomes practical. I'd guess that rescue is better than paying ransom to a presumably evil ruler.

So she's making no effort to kill the men holding her father or find out if they are justified, instead she steals from and kills others to get the money for a ransom while concealing her reasons from all her friends.

Somehow I don't see Celia being all that supportive of her course of action. She might be more sympathetic if she knew, people can do the wrong thing under stress and a threat to your family is as bad as stress gets. But if it's wrong for Haley to kill and rob without knowing about her father it's still wrong if you do. There's an exception in law for minor violations under major need (speeding to the hospital, breaking and entering to use a phone in a real emergency), but that doesn't apply to killing someone so I really don't see how knowing changes the ethics of anything other than finishing Bozak off (He admitted to Haley to being responsible at least in part for what happened to her father).

[xyzzy]

She is trying to seduce him - half naked is sexier than nude,.

But he's already been seduced --- notice "another encounter", emphasis on "another".

[Quorothorn]

Possible. But since Unnamed Cleric of Loki finished the Sending to Durkon, he and Elan probably wouldn't be on the Azurite fleet for much longer.

Though whether they can get to Greysky quickly, of course, depends on whether there are any wizards still alive there who can cast Teleport.

The wizard Shojo lent to the Order who could 'Port got munched. I don't think we have any idea if there's another of if that one ever got rezzed. Maybe we'll find out real soon now, eh?

[charl]

That was so awesome. Really loved the double entendre.

[dish]

I love the fact that Belkar did get back in touch with Jenny, but, I do agree that treating her that way is not wise. At least Mr Scruffy got a mackerel.

[CyberRebirth]

I have to say, this is getting better and better. It shouldn't be too long before we see Roy back in the land of the living. :smallbiggrin:

[Weiser_Cain]

Well that was disgusting, 'kids read this' huh?

[ShadowPenguin]

Yay for Belkar and Mr Scruffy! :smallbiggrin:

[reignofevil]

But he's already been seduced --- notice "another encounter", emphasis on "another".

Then she wants the sandwitch too.
Clearly.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I love the fact that Belkar did get back in touch with Jenny, but, I do agree that treating her that way is not wise.

Neither is the way she's letting him treat her.

[Red XIV]

The Good response if she's all that worried about her father would be to go where he is and at least try to break him out. At one point she was even a member of a high level adventuring party willing and able to teleport to rescue member's family members, and didn't bother to mention her father to any of them.
This. Especially given that all the huge piles of gold would only get the warlord to consider releasing her father.

I've seeing a lot of accusations of Celia having a Stupid Good alignment, but that would apply to Haley's "plan" for springing her father as well.

[Flame of Anor]

Newspeak! Doublepluscool!

[Tobimaro]

Nice to see that Belkar is getting a bit smarter about his actions. And here's to hoping that Haley explains just why she needs all of that loose cash. Maybe Celia (if she is told) can put her legal mind to helping? (I can always hope.)

[Occasional Sage]

Ah, the good old mysteriously clingy bed sheet. Given how Belkar's apparently been spending his time, why exactly does Jenny feel the sheet necessary? (Yes, I know, it's the whole "the readers are watching her", but that doesn't explain her motives.)

"The readers are watching" means a great deal in OotS. Everybody in the comic knows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) how reliable the 4th wall is, after all.

[Quorothorn]

Well that was disgusting, 'kids read this' huh?

Ah, it's good for them!

[JaxGaret]

But he's already been seduced --- notice "another encounter", emphasis on "another".

Seduction doesn't end once you've slept with someone.

It very darn well shouldn't, anyway, but perhaps too often does.

[JaxGaret]

As to Jenny "being treated poorly" by Belkar - she's being treated exactly the way she wants to be, obviously.

Think about it objectively: what did Belkar do to her that was in any way bad? He didn't give her a sandwich that she probably didn't even want anyway?

[TheSummoner]

Meh, kids are going to learn about sex sooner or later... better they learn it now from a fictional character in a webcomic than from their parents when they're ready.

[Lizard Lord]

Doubleplusunsmart, Ray. Doubleplusunwise is ungood newspeak.

As for the comic itself, I think Haley would explain all the details of what Celia has done during those hours of screaming, and since nothing was resolves, we can assume Celia was unapologetic. Point for the Celia Unfanclub!

Haley has made a point in being secretive about her real goal through out the whole comic. She had multiple opportunities to tell Durkon, but preferred that he just thought she want gold for gold's sake. Since telling Celia what she did wrong would not undo it, I don't think Haley said anything about her father.

[Pip]

Belkar for the win!


Belker shoots! He scores!

:smallbiggrin:

[Lunaya]

No, the last panel was actually disgusting, but that's the point. Belkar's not exactly a pillar of virtue.

[FMArthur]

Boo! Belkar deserves death, not women and glory!

[kreszantas]

Now :belkar: can stop the... your making me hungry jokes in both senses :smallwink:

[Mystral]

Treating Jenny badly? Come on, she's part of an evil thiefs guild and get's turned on by smooching someone who killed half a dozen people between their corpses. Belkar is obviously treating her just like she likes it, if he wasn't, I'm pretty sure he would be sleeping alone that night in the first place or would wake up with a knife in his throat.

[Quorothorn]

No, the last panel was actually disgusting, but that's the point. Belkar's not exactly a pillar of virtue.

Eh, not really disgusting. One of his weaker quips, though, quite frankly.

[Argot]

i'm the only one paranoid enough to note that jenny looks quite similar to :sabine:??

great comic, btw

[Angband]

Belker shoots! He scores!

:smallbiggrin:

Actually, I'm fairly sure that Belkar scored, and then he shot.

And while I'm posting, here's my guess how this will unfold:

Durkon was told to bring diamonds for resurrection. He will bring them, but wasn't expecting to be asked to resurrect the thieves' guild members with them. Wackiness ensues.

Another possibility is if Durkon comes with the Azure City fleet. Since the Azurites need some land, and Greysky City could really use some law and order, then the Paladins will take over Greysky City as their capitol-in-exile. Whether they allow the TG to continue existing is another matter, but having an army of paladins disband the Guild does provide a nice three-rail bank shot -- OotS members get reunited, Azurites get a city, and Haley gets out of the deal that Celia negotiated.

One other point on this, since we heard way back in Comic #548 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) that the Goblins were looking to trade for supplies with some of the more mercenary nations out there; maybe Greysky has been shipping stuff to Azure City? Aiding and abetting the enemy would be grounds for taking over the city...

[Lizard Lord]

i'm the only one paranoid enough to note that jenny looks quite similar to :sabine:??

great comic, btw

Sabine is a shape shifter. Jenny wouldn't have to look anything like her in order for it to be disguise. That plus Jenny was in Origin of the PCs.

In short, what are paranoid about?

[Optimystik]

Well that was disgusting, 'kids read this' huh?

Ironic how nobody worried about the kids when Belkar was littering Pete's house with corpses. It's Nipplegate all over again.

[tenguro]

Great Comic! it saddens me that Belkar is gonna die.:smallfrown: But here is to replacig him with another Halfing that is as much of a SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR he is!

[Niley]

:smallfurious:DEATH TO LAWFUL GOODS!:smallfurious:
...
Oh, and now I love Belkar even more. If that's even possible.

[Quorothorn]

Actually, I'm fairly sure that Belkar scored, and then he shot.

...Okay, THAT was disgusting. :biggrin: High-grade quip, though. :smallamused:


Ironic how nobody worried about the kids when Belkar was littering Pete's house with corpses. It's Nipplegate all over again.

What'd you expect?


Edit:

:smallfurious:DEATH TO LAWFUL GOODS!:smallfurious:
...
Oh, and now I love Belkar even more. If that's even possible.

What about LGs? :smallconfused: You mean Celia?


Great Comic! it saddens me that Belkar is gonna die.:smallfrown: But here is to replacig him with another Halfing that is as much of a SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR he is!

Belkar isn't going die. Never going to happen.

[Bitzeralisis]

...

Of course. >.>

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Good time to have a bit of insomnia... Can't sleep, check to see of there is a new OotS, woot!

Yeah, I'm thinking we might be heading off to see a different part of the story now. Belkar set up for a bit of "planning and preparation" for the next raid on Grubwiggler's, so where are we going next?

Elan and Durkon, who may or may not have just received a message...

Vaarsuvius, who may have made a deal with a devil... (Just a little one, but hey...)

Team Evil, who have had time to research the locations of the next two gates, or may have figured out what to do with the one they have already...

Or Roy, waiting ever so patiently to get back into the fight?

[turkishproverb]

That...was disturbing. Good, but disturbing.

[dogmac]

Awww.. Belkie!

[SPoD]

Jenny certainly does not mind being treated roughly, or else she would not be inviting him to bed after he told her no, he didn't get her a sandwich. Lots of women like "bad boys".

I agree that a scene change is almost guaranteed; that was a clear "sum-up" strip.

[sum1won]

So, if I understand the reactions correctly:

Celia wants to rez the dead people- save lives, essentially.

Haley wants the money, and prefers that to saving lives.

There are two arguments I've seen

First is that the lives are thieves, and therefore evil, so they don't need to be brought back.

The response is: How do you think Haley got the money in the first place? Besides, from her backstory it isn't that hard to infer that the Thieves guild is not in fact an evil organization- they are plenty of alignments- Haley and her dad were both members.

Second is that Haley needs the money for her dad.

Response: She hasn't told anyone, and she has been arguing for hours. If she wanted to actually convince Celia, that is something that she probably should have told her. In any case, those deaths can still be fixed.

So, I still don't see why Celia is in the wrong, besides being an NPC.

[TheBST]

It's good to see a subplot finally resolved.

By which I mean Belkar finally getting his sammich.

[David Argall]

As others have noted, this has really got the look of the final page of the chapter. My guess is that we go back to V, who has a tempting offer from the imp to consider. Durkon doesn't have much of interest to do except pass the message along and then get to Greysky. One possibility here is that V sells out, just before the message from Durkon reaches him.


Are you trying to tell Belkar how to treat his woman? That's...doubleplusunwise, I tells ya.

True, especially since other abused lasses has been known to attack their rescuer. And it is a little hard to argue with success. Still, I would think Jenny should get at least a little better from her boy.
Of course, it does help to remind us that Belkar has not in any real sense reformed.

As to the sheet, I'l vote that Belkar likes taking it off her.

Oh yes, what is the proper term for a three-quarterling?

[Quorothorn]

So, if I understand the reactions correctly:

Celia wants to rez the dead people- save lives, essentially.

Haley wants the money, and prefers that to saving lives.

There are two arguments I've seen

First is that the lives are thieves, and therefore evil, so they don't need to be brought back.

The response is: How do you think Haley got the money in the first place? Besides, from her backstory it isn't that hard to infer that the Thieves guild is not in fact an evil organization- they are plenty of alignments- Haley and her dad were both members.

Does Haley beat Elan? No? Then she's better than George (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html). Most of the members of the Thieves' Guild aren't evil because they're thieves: they have other things that classify them as such. Give me a response as to why a wife-beater should get a free rez.

[Starscream]

"Solo adventure". That's the best thing I've heard all day. Belker just gets more and more awesome.

[Elfey]

Belkar has found being more than just a killer is rewarding. It reminds me of my favorite childhood story, The Puss in Boots.

For those who forget, the more of the story is it's alright to lie, cheat, steal, and kill. So long as you do it with flair.

If nothing else it makes Belkar more than just a joke of killing folks. It gives him goals, ambition, plots and his impact on the story is more than just killing those nubs in the way.

Bland characters, be they heroes or villains get old quick. Stories like the OotS need both interesting villains and heroes, and interesting Anti-Heroes and Anti-Villains help too.

Belkar is in my own opinion at least the Anti-Hero that matches Red Cloak's Anti-Villain. People will disagree, but I think Belkar is going to do all the right things for the wrong reasons because it will allow him to lie, cheat, steal and kill and look good doing it. Him being the flipside of Red Cloak is Red Cloak has a sincerely noble idea, uplifting the Goblins from being just a monster class, but doing it through horrific means that threaten existence.

As for the catfight. I'm still reserving judgment because both ladies have been a bit daft and we still don't know enough details about what Celia actually negotiated.

As for the Sex jokes, if the youngling is old enough for the graphic violence inherit in this work (all be it in stick figure art) they should be able to hear such jokes. If you have an issue with them being mature enough for this, I'm really going to have to say You Suck as a parent and should have more issues with the Violence earlier and stomped on the comic then.

The internet is not rated and parents need to make decisions rather than let junior roam all over the net. This is by far not the first sex joke I can think of in this comic, nor is it the first post coitus conversation. That happened all in book one. With the first joke about 'equipment' being strip 001.

[sum1won]

Does Haley beat Elan? No? Then she's better than George (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html). Most of the members of the Thieves' Guild aren't evil because they're thieves: they have other things that classify them as such. Give me a response as to why a wife-beater should get a free rez.

My response: Not all of the theives guild are evil. Yes, george beats his wife and the other guy has dog fights. Both are not nice. However, there may be any number of neutral and even a few good characters who bit it, as I mentioned earlier. Especially considering Belkar's slaughter. And I doubt that Hank would let her choose who gets rezzed, so either she lets some relative innocents remain dead, or not. Still comes down to lives vs. money.

The strongest argument with the fewest assumptions in favor of this approach remains, though. Celia just found a way to rez Roy. Roy is a powerful force for good, and rezzing him should be a priority of the team. Haley should not have a problem with spending her money to get this done, as she has no way to be sure that she will be able to get him on his feet any other way.

To answer your direct question, since I hate leaving a question unsatisfied, even if I can answer it better another way: Why a wife beater might deserve a free rez: Perhaps his family will die if he does. Yes, wife beating is horrible, but haley seems unwilling to devote her personal wealth towards helping others, and the rest of the guild probably wouldn't help either.

I have another question, though
Proposal: George's wife is a chaotic evil lady. Absurd, yes. From what I understand of your argument, the evil people deserve to be dead. Therefore, George is doing nothing wrong by beating his wife. Yes, this is an absurd argument, but it is only possible because of the deadhorse of the alignment system. Whack, whack, whack.

[RosesOnConcrete]

And again, Belkar proves why he is, indeed, worthy of the title of "Sexy Shoeless God Of War". And gets himself a stupid-cute nickname in the process!

Celia...go play in traffic. *sigh*

[Raging Gene Ray]

Oh yes, what is the proper term for a three-quarterling?

In Belkar's case? Child Support Receiving Accident.

[The Antigamer]

This? This right here?
Awesomesauce.

[[sWc]Konman]

yay, belklar, sexy as usual. hmm. i do agree with some though, i think a change of scenery is in order

[Porthos]

Well that was disgusting, 'kids read this' huh?

<slashdot>
Hi! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) You (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html) must (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html) be (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) new (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html) here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) :smallsmile:
</slashdot>

Amongst many many many "blue" comics. :smallwink:

[charles]

Well that was disgusting, 'kids read this' huh?

??? They're stick figures!

But just to check, what is the rating for this comic? I'd have thought around PG-13. To hell with the sexual themes here and there, the violence alone would almost warrant it. Besides, I doubt there would be many under the age of 13 who'd get half the jokes in this comic with all the gamer references.

Kids: "I wanna be just like Belkstar when I grow up"

It's either him or the cookie monster and that guy makes a real mess when he eats.

[Phexar]

Looks like Haley finally got her hair cleaned up too. :smallsmile:

[Lex-Kat]

I just wanna say that in my opinion, this comic was the worse, ever.

I absolutely hate that line: Don't hate the player, hate the game. Well, newsflash, I hate both. Without the player, there is no "game". So to get rid of the game, you get rid of the player.
I can't stand Belkar. So anytime something works out in his favor, it ruins the comic for me.

Yes, I'll keep reading the comic, because fortunately, Rich hasn't decided to rename it the Belkar Power Hour. So there is lots of other good strips that I can read and enjoy. This just happens to be the low spot.

[tgva8889]

...You know, I only just realized now that Mr. Scruffy has become Belkar's Animal Companion.

It was a good comic, Rich. Nice way to wrap up some parts of the arch, at least. There might be some more, but at this point I think it will be more interesting to make a move back to what's going on with V, Durkon, and Elan.

[Jeivar]

You know . . . I could forgive Celia for being stupidly idealistic. But the SHEER, BLIND ARROGANCE!!! GOD!

[Limos]

Yeah Belkar!

Git 'er done!

[B. Dandelion]

Well sheesh, you know I hadn't really felt much for Celia who wasn't the most likable character in the world but not really as bad as some people made her out to be. This, now, this makes me think of her as a total bitch. She was the one who went to Greysky against Haley's advice, got Roy turned into a golem and required rescue -- you know, the one that made the Thieves' Guild aware of Haley's presence in the first place? She can just take anything she wants from Haley in order to absolve her OWN complicity in the deaths of dozens of thieves that needed to be killed in pure self defense? What a colossal self-righteous hypocrite.

[Bendal]

It's official; Belkar is actually a cat in halfing form. He's completely interested in his own interests and only marginally considers others before acting on them, and luxuriates in hedonism when he gets the chance.

Yep, sounds like a cat to me. No wonder he and Mr. Scruffy get along so well!

[Hamilkar]

Belkar is getting better and better. (And I thought that was impossible!)

As well as Celia is getting more and more annoying. :smallbiggrin:
She simply not made to be an adventurer.

[Tyrael]

Wow, fanservice galore. Am I the only one who finds a half-naked stick figure amazingly sexy? :smallbiggrin: Edit: I wonder if high charisma translates into a high cup size ifyouknowwhatImean. :smallwink:

And Mr. Scruffy is so cute! That's the first time we've seen him purr!

[Spiryt]

Since Belkar is supposed to be without any Charisma, I guess he just has Perform (Sexual Activities) maxed out.

[shylocxs]

*giggles* A solo adventure and joining the quest....I'm going to have to use that line some time.

Seems like Jenny is a high enough level for it, however! Go Belkie!

[small pumpkin m]

Sabine is a shape shifter. Jenny wouldn't have to look anything like her in order for it to be disguise. That plus Jenny was in Origin of the PCs.

What, really? Hey! She's the crazy multiclass chick (with teh huge charismas). Learn something new every day.

[Draz74]

why exactly does Jenny feel the sheet necessary? (Yes, I know, it's the whole "the readers are watching her", but that doesn't explain her motives.)

... Wait, are you saying this comic has a fourth wall? :smallconfused:

Meh. The sex joke episodes are never my favorites. :smallsigh::smallannoyed: But I'm glad Belkar finally got his sandwich, and I'm intrigued to see where this "transition scene" is leading us next.

[Jan Mattys]

What I think this comic does is definitely make it official that Mr Scruffy is an animal companion.

Belkar refers to Scruffy as "it's you and me now" something you would NEVER expect from Belkar.

They are pals now, they officially work together.
ps: I am pretty sure Belkar will die trying to defend Mr Scruffy.

[Myou]

My first reaction to the stip was a big 'Ewwww!' at how nasty the last panel was. xD

It was great to get to see some more of Belkar. I actually considered him one of the worst characters, but he's now quite interesting and a lot less annoying.

I've lost interest in the Celia thing though. Hopefully she'll go back to her home plane soon, because this subplot where she messes everything up getting very stale, but with luck it may be nearly over.

As Haley might say; I liked this comic better when she wasn't in it.

[Albion]

Up, ride with the Belkie!
(Obscure Jethro Tull reference)

[EvilJames]

You know . . . I could forgive Celia for being stupidly idealistic. But the SHEER, BLIND ARROGANCE!!! GOD!
Idealistic? yes. Stupidly so? Not really maybe just a little more persistent about keeping her ideals than most. Which really isn't a bad thing. Most people have ideals and most people abandon them the moment they become inconvenient. Celia sticks to her guns and I admire that.
As for SHEER, BLIND ARROGANCE!!!? No she's only blind of the things she's not been informed of and there's nothing really arrogant about it. She does have every right to try and undo the damage she was a part of and none of Haley's money belonged to her on technicality. The only thing Celia is really wrong about is that even though Haley has no right to that money, neither does Celia have any right to giver it to the guild.

[RMS Oceanic]

Wow. Celia isn't doing herself any favours.

She really has a narrow view of the world, doesn't she? Because her views are "right", this gives her Carte Blanche to act on those beliefs. Naivity and lack of knowledge about the material plane is one thing, but this borders on willful ignorance, an Academic Crime. A lawyer has to have an open mind about things, or they risk hampering their skills in the courtroom be pre-judging whether someone is innocent or guilty.

Some would say this is inconsistent writing, but I don't think so. I think as Celia has been thrown deeper and deeper into the moral ambiguities that exist in most campaigns, this tendency to condem "grey" actions has flared up, possibly as a defence mechanism to cope with how different being outside her own plane or a courtroom is. Either way, she doesn't have the PC mindframe*, and she'll need to develop it or go back to the sidelines. She could certainly take a leaf out of Roy's page when it comes to dealing with different alignments. Still, a character that provokes such debate is a sign of interesting writing, and I salute the Giant for that.

And of course, Belkar tones down what some may call the "Lawful Stupid Good" with his blend of wit and badassery, possibly suggesting an abrupt change in scene is imminent.

*Unless you count Book of Exalted Deeds, of course.

[Senex]

The last panel left me with a feeling that Celia and Haley would be far less antagonistic if they received Treasure Type O regularly.

Bring back Roy, reunite Haley with Elan, and harmony will reign again.

[DanishPastry]

Belkar and Michael Jackson... Who would have thought?

[kravlegaard]

I wonder if Haley is sick of all this emo crap and wants to go back to comedy? (she's new):smallwink:

"...so are we getting a punchline or what?"

[honkuimushi]

It's been a while since I saw it, but aren't the barber's lines a Batman reference? I believe those were the underground surgeon's lines when he finished working on Jack Napier after he his first meeting with Batman. (The Jack Nicholson version.)

[Nevrmore]

Haley: By using MY money?!

Celia: You mean money you stole from hard-working people, meaning that me spending it for whatever I want is just as morally bankrupt as you, especially to resurrect a bunch of people I actually had NO hand in killing because I didn't fight any of them and they wanted to kill you so self-defense is about as good a reason to kill a person as you can get?! HELL YEAH!

Oh Celia, you're such an overzealous goalie guarding your little net of idiocy.

P.S. lackluster Belkar-romance subplot DEPLOY!

[TheNovak]

I understand more of where Celia's coming from after her little spiel, and I see how she self-justifies what she did. Doesn't make her right, though, just extremely willful and naive.

But what's up with all the hate for the Belkar/bard chick anger and discomfort? Seems straightforward enough to me. She likes the bad boys, they banged (and will do so again), and that's that. The previous poster's comment about a "lackluster Belkar-romance subplot" doesn't seem very likely...I mean, what makes you think Belkar's interested in romance?

[Taekwondodo]

:eek::amused: solo adventure, lol...

[Nevrmore]

I understand more of where Celia's coming from after her little spiel, and I see how she self-justifies what she did. Doesn't make her right, though, just extremely willful and naive.

But what's up with all the hate for the Belkar/bard chick anger and discomfort? Seems straightforward enough to me. She likes the bad boys, they banged (and will do so again), and that's that. The previous poster's comment about a "lackluster Belkar-romance subplot" doesn't seem very likely...I mean, what makes you think Belkar's interested in romance?
I useed "romance" very tenuously there. Doesn't make it any less lackluster.

[Trixie]

Don't Hate the Player Character... for what, exactly? :smallconfused:

[Manoftyr]

you're such an overzealous goalie guarding your little net of idiocy.

A little off topic, but that's the greatest expression I've heard for anything in a long time, I'll be sure to remember it.


As for the comic itself, not really much to say other than the visual of Belkar on top of a mountain pissing on people's heads is hilarious and I have a feeling that I'm really going to like this new 'fake character development' Belkster.

[RMS Oceanic]

It's a play on words: After a no-strings-attached make-out session, in which our Swinging hero has dumped his latest fling, he will say something like "Hate the game, not the player."

[Pronounceable]

It's not lackluster, it's shallow. A one night (or likely several nights [and maybe some days as well]) stand. I, for one, find whole Roy-Celia setup lackluster whereas THIS is Belkster goodness.

I like Celia in these recent events. It establishes her as a character. Not a very smart or sympathetic character, but a strong one.

And of course:
:belkar: IS A SEXY, SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!!!

[SteveMB]

Oh, you don't let the lady go Solo Belkar. It's bad form...

Well, it's not exactly surprising that Belkar is a bit lazy....

[Selene]

I'm glad he got his sandwich(es). And if we switch, I hope it's to O'Chul.

[Myou]

P.S. lackluster Belkar-romance subplot DEPLOY!

No, please Gods no! Anything but that!


Well, anything but Celia.


P.S. I love reading your posts in these threads, they're very cleverly worded.

[pjackson]

I understand more of where Celia's coming from after her little spiel, and I see how she self-justifies what she did. Doesn't make her right, though, just extremely willful and naive.


Why willful or naive?
So she does defer to Haley. Why should she? Haley has no authority over Celia, and Haley can not be trusted to do what is Right (i.e. Lawful Good). So Celia is not going to go to Haley for moral advice.
Celia found a peaceful, non-violent solution to the conflict that saved lives. She did Good in a Lawful fashion. She used money that did not rightfully belong to Haley to do so. She was aware that Haley would be unhappy about that, but believes that is due to Haley's greed. Since Haley had told Celia she expected to die Celia probably believed at the time of making the agreement that she was saving Haley's life.
What Celia did was right from a LG non-adventurer point of view.
Haley from her Chaotic Good adventurer viewpoint disagrees.
Neither is wrong, but nor do either of them have the wisdom to understand each other.



I like Celia in these recent events. It establishes her as a character. Not a very smart or sympathetic character, but a strong one.


She was smart enough to see the opportunity for a peaceful solution to the conflict and smart enough to achieve it. She is neither stupid nor foolish.

She was nice enough to want to find a peaceful solution. I find that pretty sympathetic.

[HOLEkevin]

You know, it never occurred to me before to wonder what one of these characters looks like without any clothes.

I really wish I could take that back.

[SSGW Priest]

:belkar: is the man, err halfling! The conversation with Mr Scruffy was purfect. You go Belkie.

[MickJay]

Don't Hate the Player Character... for what, exactly? :smallconfused:

Answer to that would depend on whether the title was a reference to Belkar, to how Celia is "popular" among readers, or both ;)

[Nevitan]

That was awesome!
Belkar has it all planned out..
Actually now I'm expecting him to betray the team... ah well, It'll be fun until then!

[TheFallenOne]

Since Belkar is supposed to be without any Charisma, I guess he just has Perform (Sexual Activities) maxed out.

Does he get a size penalty to that check?

[Homunculus]

:smallcool: So awesome

[Roderick_BR]

The Belkster is just rocketing up the cool ladder.

"Screaming at each other for hours, but I'll spare you the details". This strip's best line :smallbiggrin:

And what's scarier than a psycho halfling that kills everything in his path? A psycho halfling that kills everything in his path, with a plan. He's learning how to better use people (in more than one ways). He's starting to develop more character than he intended :smallwink:

[Kish]

Don't Hate the Player Character... for what, exactly? :smallconfused:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=don%27t%20hate%20the%20player%20ha te%20the%20game

[RebelRogue]

One other point on this, since we heard way back in Comic #548 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) that the Goblins were looking to trade for supplies with some of the more mercenary nations out there; maybe Greysky has been shipping stuff to Azure City? Aiding and abetting the enemy would be grounds for taking over the city...
Look no further than here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0517.html) to see that this is indeed the case!

[moxproxy]

I think Celia just broke the comic for me...

There's no way Haley (or any slightly intelligent sentient being) would spend as much as one second with her after this. She's become too much of a liability. I'm pretty sure V would have simply disintegrated her by now.

This has caused me to lose my suspension of disbelief, and in a stick figure comic based on a role playing game in a fantasy setting, that's saying something.

[epollo79]

What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding?

nothing! But Belkar just keeps rocking!

[Terraxos]

There's no way Haley (or any slightly intelligent sentient being) would spend as much as one second with her after this. She's become too much of a liability. I'm pretty sure V would have simply disintegrated her by now.

Undoubtedly... but then, that's why V isn't Good! Haley might not be either, but she's wise enough to realise that another death wouldn't really help here (and probably wouldn't make Roy too happy once he gets resurrected...).

Celia, on the other hand, is most definitely Lawful Good, and that's what's interesting about her, because of the conflicts that creates with the other characters. I'm not exactly a fan of her decision here, but I understand her reasons for making it. If it's any consolation, she probably won't be sticking with Haley and Belkar all that much longer anyway.

Oh, and: here's to another Belkar-focused strip! Glad to see the return of Jenny (and Mr Scruffy), and that he finally got his sandwich. And a few other things as well. :)

[Mauve Shirt]

Belkar finally got a sandwich. :smalltongue:
Celia remains incredibly frustrating, and STILL doesn't understand adventuring at ALL.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I may not be the first to say this but:

Squick

[shakes019]

I think this was a well-written strip. A bit of fanservice, continuation of the Haley/Celia Chaos/Law disagreement, and a nice kick the dog moment for Belkar.

I think it's intended to be clear that Belkar is not a good person. He's apparently grateful to his cat, but he doesn't care about anyone else, including the girl who's sleeping with him.

His only motivation is to satisfy his wants and needs. He's hungry, so he gets a sandwich. He obviously wanted to have sex once all the killing was over, but now he's not enthusiastic about it. He'll still have sex, because, you know, it's sex, but not until he finishes eating.

[BRC]

I don't think we need to be reminded that Belkar is a shallow creature who simply lives to fulfill base desires (Kill, Eat, "Smite Evil" with the hot thieves guild bard).

[Morchaint]

I liked the comic. primarily becasue of Belkar, Mr. Scruffy and a scantily clad
Jenny. ( Treasure type O :D )

as much as I like Celia, or liked her more.
she is doing what she sees as right. however
Just because she thinks its right does not mean its correct. ( see miko. )if you are going to at least PRETEND to be good, then you must make an attempt to consider the feelings, ideas, ways of life, of other ppl you are interacting with, and affecting with your actions. which clearly Celia did NOT do. it doesnt matter that she thought that Haleys money was ill gotten gold. it wasnt up to her, to bargin it away just to appease her OWN willy nilly feelings about the ppl who were gettting killed.

Who incidentally were not killed by her, and didnt have that much to do with her in the first place.
if you are going to be a lamo pansy then I have nothing to do with you
Ghost roy was right. it was time to bring out the Lighting beat stick.
sadly you chose the path of the lamo pansy.

This is why I prefer, and think that if I HAD an alignment it would be thus:
Chaotic Neutral. I dont run around doing good deeds, but neither do I run around doing evil deeds. I do as I see fit, unless it affects someone who is bigger or stronger than me. or has a better reason for it.

long post sorry.

[Kish]

I don't think we need to be reminded that Belkar is a shallow creature who simply lives to fulfill base desires (Kill, Eat, "Smite Evil" with the hot thieves guild bard).
Yes, we did. Lots of people responded to the last few comics with, "Ooh, Belkar is changing!" no matter how clearly he telegraphed exactly what he was going to do. The question is not whether spotlighting, "He's still a vile little monster" is necessary, the question is whether it will work.

I'm thinking no, at least not for the long term. The next time we see him displaying his fake character development without contradicting it in the same strip, there will be the same chorus of "Belkar is now Chaotic Neutral!"

[hamishspence]

thats not long. when you're used to the Walls of text common on these forums, a post that is all visible on screen, not quite filling it, is just the right size.

that said, I see myself as LN for almost the same reason- do what I like, aside from paying very careful attention to the laws and rules around me.

on care for other people's feelings, neither Roy nor Miko (and definitely not the would-be LG Eugene) show this.

Hinjo, Lien, and O-chul (admittedly all paladins) are much better exemplars of concern for others.

Given the number of times "rob from the rich to help others" has been characterised as Good, why not "rob from the thief to help others"?

[Dacia Brabant]

Since Belkar is supposed to be without any Charisma, I guess he just has Perform (Sexual Activities) maxed out.

He doesn't need Charisma, he has the Kavorka (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KavorkaMan)! :smallbiggrin:


Sigh, I can't say I'm too happy with glossing over the unresolved argument though, especially with Celia making such a pollyanna statement in this strip that's just begging to be challenged.

[llapgochmaster]

I've been following the strip, and often the forum, for something like two years now. I had to register to say:

AHAHhahhahahahhahhahahahahaha! Who knew that Belkar could get any better?

[Vercon]

Ah Belkie.

[Vectner]

Very PG-13.

Scruffy is the star of this one I think. Belkar even gives him kudos!

I just want to make a note about Celia and what she represents in this comic, at least in this story arc. Celia represents how a normal person would react to the adventuring lifestyle. Even a Lawful Good adventurer thinks nothing of hording treasure and killing sentient beings to take their stuff. In normal society those actions would be considered wrong and evil.
Don't hate on Celia, she is the voice of reason and moderation to a crazy frenetic adventuring lifestyle that the Order lives.

[BRC]

Concerning Belkar's "Character Development" Halluci-Shojo didn't turn belkar lawful, what he did was teach Belkar how to be Chaotic effectively. Pre Shojonic (NEW WORD) hallucination, Belkar was likely to haul off and stab somebody in an alleyway simply because he felt like it. His time under the mark of Justice, when he couldn't fight even when he should have (The resistance, fighting the Linear guild in cliffport) made him feel the other extreme. What Halluci-Shojo and the mark has taught him is to wait for the right stabee to appear, beceause if you kill some random guy minding his own buisness now, you may be unable to kill somebody who is trying to mess up YOUR buisness later.

[brilliantlight]

I think Celia just broke the comic for me...

There's no way Haley (or any slightly intelligent sentient being) would spend as much as one second with her after this. She's become too much of a liability. I'm pretty sure V would have simply disintegrated her by now.

This has caused me to lose my suspension of disbelief, and in a stick figure comic based on a role playing game in a fantasy setting, that's saying something.

Agreed, if I were Haley I would tell her to get lost and stay lost unless she thought "Today was a good day to die". After all, I have max bluff and Celia is clueless enough to believe it.

[puddingpie]

I dislike Celia (and hated Miko), but I'm surprised by the amount of "KILL HER" posts we're getting.

I think she was stupid for going into Greysky in the first place and getting Roy golem'd in the first place, and stupid for antagonizing the person that just saved her life.... but from a strictly moral perspective, she's not wrong.

Anyone talking about how it's somehow an absolute RULE of adventuring that evil people deserve to die:

"It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance."

"Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."

For all we know, George the wife-abuser could have an epiphany during his time in his (probably unpleasant) afterlife, and go on an Atonement quest after being rezzed. I'd think that being dead for the first time would make even the most evil person re-think their priorities. Heroes have come out of worse.

/Christian

[waffletaco]

Very PG-13.

Scruffy is the star of this one I think. Belkar even gives him kudos!

I just want to make a note about Celia and what she represents in this comic, at least in this story arc. Celia represents how a normal person would react to the adventuring lifestyle. Even a Lawful Good adventurer thinks nothing of hording treasure and killing sentient beings to take their stuff. In normal society those actions would be considered wrong and evil.
Don't hate on Celia, she is the voice of reason and moderation to a crazy frenetic adventuring lifestyle that the Order lives.

I hate on Celia because "reason and moderation" have no place in the "crazy frenetic adventuring lifestyle". Especially when this "voice" shoves their ideas down other people's throats. She's just plain inconsiderate and ignorant.

[otakuryoga]

It's good to see a subplot finally resolved.

By which I mean Belkar finally getting his sammich.

yes yes...quite true.....BUT, and i cant believe on page 5 i am the first to say this
.
.
.
.
.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE XTRA ONIONS HE ASKED FOR??!!?!!?!?

[EphU437]

Why did Jenny fall for Belkar in the first place?

[Silencer]

So, anyone with more time to put to waste than me care to dig back through the archive and tell me when exactly was Whore's Might cast on the sexual innuendo in this comic?

[moxproxy]

Why did Jenny fall for Belkar in the first place?

He, quite literally, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) swept her off her feet.

[Rotipher]

Give me a response as to why a wife-beater should get a free rez.

Well, if there's a "Till death do us part..." clause in Stickworld wedding vows, the fact he was killed (even temporarily) ought to mean his marriage is no longer valid. So he can't beat his wife anymore, because she's his widow rather than his wife, free to A) tell every other woman in Greysky to give him the brush-off, and B) run off with somebody else.

Plus, he's down a level. That may be enough for his widow (or her new love interest) to kick his ass. :smallwink:

[Rotipher]

Given how Belkar's apparently been spending his time, why exactly does Jenny feel the sheet necessary? (Yes, I know, it's the whole "the readers are watching her", but that doesn't explain her motives.)

Er, because the Guild probably doesn't have central heating?

[oxybe]

Why did Jenny fall for Belkar in the first place?

5 words: sexy shoeless god of war.

[Ethdred]

But he's already been seduced --- notice "another encounter", emphasis on "another".
No, she's trying to seduce him away from the sandwich. This requires much greater powers of persuasion than when there's nothing else to distract him

[The Hop Goblin]

Why did Jenny fall for Belkar in the first place?

Because Belkar is a Bad Mother <Shut yo mouth!>, I was only talking about Belkar! <We can Dig It!>

[Dilvish]

:smallfurious:DEATH TO LAWFUL GOODS!:smallfurious:
...
Oh, and now I love Belkar even more. If that's even possible.

Does that death to lawful goods include Roy? Or not bring Roy back? Or does Roy not count since he is already dead?

dilvish

[hamishspence]

Given the number of times Eugene died and came back (3 or 4 on his tombstone) I doubt "till death do us part" applies while both are alive (even if they have had short breaks from life), it only applies to afterlife in this context.

[Shadowcaller]

Does that death to lawful goods include Roy? Or not bring Roy back? Or does Roy not count since he is already dead?

dilvish

Well it seems that he think lawful good people are worse then lets say chaotic evil people, I say we just should just ignore that.

[Dilvish]

Answer to that would depend on whether the title was a reference to Belkar, to how Celia is "popular" among readers, or both ;)

Some other people have noticed this strip's title. :) My guess is that the title refers to Celia's popularity, and possibly in response to Belkar's actions.

Regarding the last panel, the dialogue isn't any worse than what you find on tv, even US network tv on the over the air channels.

Jenny in a bedsheet is Hubba Hubba. Without going into details, even after seeing the lady naked, she is still sexy when half-covered. Imagination and anticipation come into play for the guy. :) :) :)

dilvish

[Morgan Wick]

I'm a little surprised *everyone* on the first two pages is seeing the problem as Haley's father (who I think she isn't that worried about anymore), not that she might not have enough money to pay the Guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)...


Another possibility is if Durkon comes with the Azure City fleet. Since the Azurites need some land, and Greysky City could really use some law and order, then the Paladins will take over Greysky City as their capitol-in-exile. Whether they allow the TG to continue existing is another matter, but having an army of paladins disband the Guild does provide a nice three-rail bank shot -- OotS members get reunited, Azurites get a city, and Haley gets out of the deal that Celia negotiated. Which is why it's not going to happen, tempting though it sounds. Plausible before #621, maybe, but Rich included the deal for a reason.


One other point on this, since we heard way back in Comic #548 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) that the Goblins were looking to trade for supplies with some of the more mercenary nations out there; maybe Greysky has been shipping stuff to Azure City? Aiding and abetting the enemy would be grounds for taking over the city...Isn't this old news (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html)?

[Jeivar]

Very PG-13.

Scruffy is the star of this one I think. Belkar even gives him kudos!

I just want to make a note about Celia and what she represents in this comic, at least in this story arc. Celia represents how a normal person would react to the adventuring lifestyle. Even a Lawful Good adventurer thinks nothing of hording treasure and killing sentient beings to take their stuff. In normal society those actions would be considered wrong and evil.
Don't hate on Celia, she is the voice of reason and moderation to a crazy frenetic adventuring lifestyle that the Order lives.

Well, real-world people are willing to kill in self-defense. Celia isn't.

[hamishspence]

Remember, the guild are paying for all the rezzing, but they are "not worried" because they expect the windfalls from Haley (and to a lesser extent Pete) to make up for it.

Now if Haley can hold out on paying them until after Roy is up, she can present them with the 50000 "and some magic items" taken from Grubwiggler and say- This covers cost of half of everything I've stolen since leaving. Take it or leave it- and have Roy to back her up.

The guild will probably be slightly out of pocket, but they will have avoided losing face.

on self-defense- not always- some are willing to die rather than kill.
Celia has done her best to avoid having to kill in self-defense- running rather than attacking. Which is in fact what people are encouraged to do. As she pointed out- she has no combat training.

[BillyJimBoBob]

You know, it never occurred to me before to wonder what one of these characters looks like without any clothes.

I really wish I could take that back.The entire problem with a mental image is that it's already too late to put your eyes out.


Yes, we did. Lots of people responded to the last few comics with, "Ooh, Belkar is changing!" no matter how clearly he telegraphed exactly what he was going to do. The question is not whether spotlighting, "He's still a vile little monster" is necessary, the question is whether it will work.

I'm thinking no, at least not for the long term. The next time we see him displaying his fake character development without contradicting it in the same strip, there will be the same chorus of "Belkar is now Chaotic Neutral!"You're right, of course. Even though it was quite carefully explained that Belkar was just faking his 'character development', a huge host of people like to read way too far into a single comic or even a single panel and decide that all the history leading up to that point has zero relevance.


[deliberately misquoted based on Bored of the Rings]
Anyone talking about how it's somehow an absolute RULE of adventuring that evil people deserve to die:

Frito Bugger "It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance."

Goodgulf Greyteeth "Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand."

Dildo Bugger "It's a pity I'm out of bullets."I'll point out that Goddam (Gollum) did indeed die, just not at the first opportunity. And had Bilbo killed him Gollum would have never been captured and tortured for information on the Shire and the name Baggins. Which would have made Frodo's trip to Mordor a heck of a lot easier. So yes, it's an absolute rule of adventuring that evil people need to die. Unless it's somehow important to the script, in which case they can die later rather than sooner.

[hamishspence]

Or, if killing said evil person will cause more problems than it solves- like- bounty hunters and arrests.

Thog is a good example of Evil person who when asked, was a big help. Had Elan not decided to make use of Thog it's entirely possible he could be on trial for his life right now.

Or Therkla, who helped Elan save the Katos, and died in the process.

[LordSintax]

wow.... and the Belkster wins again. and as a COMPLETE pimp, too.

:belkar: "Well, there are exactly two sandwiches here, aren't there? so, no. I didn't bring you a sandwich. they're both for me."

AWESOME, I tells ya.
and I may have to find a way to use that solo adventure line..... find a way that still ensures I AM able to join the quest later, as it were.

[Rakim Avishot]

Possible. But since Unnamed Cleric of Loki finished the Sending to Durkon, he and Elan probably wouldn't be on the Azurite fleet for much longer.

Actually, we never saw him finish the sending. He could have just chickened out when he heard the rouges breaking in and stopped the sending to revive :belkar: to save his hide. :smallmad: Look closely : http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html

[Adeptus]

Some other people have noticed this strip's title. :) My guess is that the title refers to Celia's popularity, and possibly in response to Belkar's actions.


Belkar's a playah yo! :belkar:

Must be that level of barbarian.

[Rakim Avishot]

The Good response if she's all that worried about her father would be to go where he is and at least try to break him out. At one point she was even a member of a high level adventuring party willing and able to teleport to rescue member's family members, and didn't bother to mention her father to any of them. That's the same father she's planning to charge 10% of his lifetime earnings in exchange for ransoming him.


Whoa, whoa, back up. 10%?!?! I never heard about this! That's a lot for your father! If it was even someone like a party member, I'd probably let them go for free!!! She's insane!!:smallannoyed:

[David Argall]

Does Haley beat Elan? No? Then she's better than George (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html). Most of the members of the Thieves' Guild aren't evil because they're thieves: they have other things that classify them as such. Give me a response as to why a wife-beater should get a free rez.
Because his wife wants him back.
One can question the sanity of such lasses, but Jenny reminds us they are quite real, and even common. It is usually not our place to rescue them from what they don't want to be rescued from.

Origin

Given the number of times Eugene died and came back (3 or 4 on his tombstone)
6 times according to Origin




WHAT HAPPENED TO THE XTRA ONIONS HE ASKED FOR??!!?!!?!?

Jenny was not entirely a doormat and insisted it was onions or her, and since the onions didn't look fresh...

[AceofDeath]

Omg what a great short little comic

[Rakim Avishot]

Ah, it's good for them!

I technically am a "kid" in that I am fourteen, but I already know all this stuff anyway. besides, Oots has gotten a lot dirtier since then (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html). :smalltongue:

[Hatu]

I'll point out that Goddam (Gollum) did indeed die, just not at the first opportunity. And had Bilbo killed him Gollum would have never been captured and tortured for information on the Shire and the name Baggins. Which would have made Frodo's trip to Mordor a heck of a lot easier. So yes, it's an absolute rule of adventuring that evil people need to die. Unless it's somehow important to the script, in which case they can die later rather than sooner.

I think you're overlooking the point of Gandalf's original quote: had Bilbo been willing to simply kill Gollum, he would never have been able to withstand the corruption of the Ring, and thus never passed the Ring to Frodo. More importantly, had Gollum been killed, he would not have been there to guide Frodo into Mordor, nor would he have been there to destroy the Ring at Mt. Doom. Frodo's quest would have failed and the Ring have been captured by Sauron.

Having said that, the difference between Bilbo's pity and Celia's principles can hardly be overstated. Gollum had not lead a team of goblins to kill Bilbo, nor did Gandalf demand Bilbo pay to bury all the goblins he fried when he rescued Bilbo and the dwarves. Gandalf was saying that Gollum's evil nature was not enough, in and of itself, was not cause to kill him. Contrast that to the many times Gandalf was willing to kill in battle.

Basically, Gandalf is discussing the nature of mercy while Celia's defense of her deal a matter of pacifism (and an underhanded one at that). Celia didn't just want to stop Haley from killing the defenseless Bozzok, she wanted to prevent Haley from killing any of the thieves who attacked them.

-H

[Reverent-One]

I'll point out that Goddam (Gollum) did indeed die, just not at the first opportunity. And had Bilbo killed him Gollum would have never been captured and tortured for information on the Shire and the name Baggins. Which would have made Frodo's trip to Mordor a heck of a lot easier. So yes, it's an absolute rule of adventuring that evil people need to die. Unless it's somehow important to the script, in which case they can die later rather than sooner.

Except that if Bilbo had killed Gollum, the ring wouldn't have been destroyed, as Frodo would not have the willpower to do so, so Sauron would have gotten the ring eventually and taken over the world. So it's not an absolute rule.

EDIT: Ninja'd....

[Adeptus]

Because his wife wants him back.
One can question the sanity of such lasses, but Jenny reminds us they are quite real, and even common. It is usually not our place to rescue them from what they don't want to be rescued from.

Moral relativism be damned to hades, that dog won't hunt. Read up on things like battered spouse syndrome.

People quite often need protection from themselves.

[Ridureyu]

THe title of the strip is a pun on "Don't be a player hater," by saying "Don't hate the player character, hate the player." I'd assume it's about Belkar.

[Rakim Avishot]

First is that the lives are thieves, and therefore evil, so they don't need to be brought back.

The response is: How do you think Haley got the money in the first place? Besides, from her backstory it isn't that hard to infer that the Thieves guild is not in fact an evil organization- they are plenty of alignments- Haley and her dad were both members.


Who says Haley and her father are Good? She says in one of the cryptograms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) (third comic block, first panel, third sentence) : "I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!". Thus, she could, in fact, be Chaotic Neutral, or even (,unlikely,) Evil. :haley:

[Scarlet Knight]

Well, real-world people are willing to kill in self-defense. Celia isn't.

Maybe she's a Quaker?

[hamishspence]

there is the "evil people who die evil boost the powers of Evil in the multiverse" idea. Hence the heavy emphasis on redeeming bad guys in BoED.

that said, secondary reason could be- Guild needs everyone it has to keep the balance from shifting and Greysky becoming much worse.

third reason- most of the thieves could be CN, jerky but not actively malevolent, tending to follow orders, partly out of fear of their leader.

[Kish]

Whoa, whoa, back up. 10%?!?! I never heard about this! That's a lot for your father! If it was even someone like a party member, I'd probably let them go for free!!! She's insane!!:smallannoyed:
Yes. Haley is greedy. Really greedy. She's not a monster like Belkar--she wants to rescue her father--but greedy enough to charge him for it, to regard the idea of tipping a waitress as a scam, to steal from her companions as a matter of course and habit, to care nothing for the people--innocent and guilty alike--she steals from.

Well, real-world people are willing to kill in self-defense. Celia isn't.
:smallannoyed: Really, now. You're seriously under the impression that all real-world people are willing to kill in self-defense?

[Kilarny]

Once again, Mr. Burlew delivers Comedy Gold. "Solo adventure." ROFL! :smalltongue:

[BillyJimBoBob]

I think you're overlooking the point of Gandalf's original quote: had Bilbo been willing to simply kill Gollum, he would never have been able to withstand the corruption of the Ring, and thus never passed the Ring to Frodo. More importantly, had Gollum been killed, he would not have been there to guide Frodo into Mordor, nor would he have been there to destroy the Ring at Mt. Doom. Frodo's quest would have failed and the Ring have been captured by Sauron.

Except that if Bilbo had killed Gollum, the ring wouldn't have been destroyed, as Frodo would not have the willpower to do so, so Sauron would have gotten the ring eventually and taken over the world. So it's not an absolute rule.
Meh, you can speculate all day long about who would have been able to do what, but it's just that: Idle speculation. Bilbo didn't give in to the ring, so it's impossible to say that had he killed Gollum that he would have necessarily have succumbed to its influence. Frodo didn't, after all, and Frodo thought Bilbo should have offed the sod. So a lack of pity doesn't mean the ring controls you. Frodo hesitated to throw the ring in, but we can't be sure he wouldn't have summoned up the willpower to pitch the ring in, or that Sam might have pushed Frodo in along with the ring, or that Frodo might have collapsed due to the toxic gasses in the air and his weakened state due to the privations of the journey and fallen in along with the ring. And without the interference of Gollum which would have been eliminated by his earlier death it's not a given that he would have been needed to lead anyone anywhere, since the forces looking specifically for the Hobbits only knew to do so because of information which came, wait for it, from Gollum.

But if you want to stick to the facts: Gollum was evil, and he died. So yes, it is an absolute rule. In LotR at least, and in most D&D games as well. Sheleb lived, but only to sleep for a few hundred years to heal up. By which time the age was over and she probably either died of boredom or sailed off to the elven lands like anyone else with any angst at how things had turned out did. Every other evil character died, mostly horrible deaths.

I've seen the occasional supposed moral dilemma posed such as: GM "Ok, all that's left are the unarmed and non-threatening kobold women and children. But they will no doubt grow up to do what kobolds do: raid towns and kill adventurers who come to slaughter them. But, but, right now they are helpless women and children!!!1! What do you do?", but I've never seen it done well.

[Achsah]

Every other evil character died, mostly horrible deaths.

What about Saruman? He didn't die.

Btw, awesome comic!

[Dacia Brabant]

Because his wife wants him back.
One can question the sanity of such lasses, but Jenny reminds us they are quite real, and even common. It is usually not our place to rescue them from what they don't want to be rescued from.

Tell that to every single abused family shelter and hotline worker ever, and every person who's ever benefited from these services. :smallannoyed:


Why did Jenny fall for Belkar in the first place?

Like I said, he has the Kavorka!


Maybe she's a Quaker?

I don't want to tread into banned topics but that's not absolute among the Religious Society of Friends, and the concept of refraining from self-defense in life-threatening situations is controversial among many peace churches and movements. The fact is, Celia's ideology is extreme even in the real-world.


What about Saruman? He didn't die.

Sigh. I blame Peter Jackson for removing one of the best death scenes in the whole darn book. (Yeah he did film a different version of it that got into the Extended Edition RotK, but it didn't compare at all with his properly pathetic death at the end of the Scouring of the Shire.)

[Enlong]

Maybe she's a Quaker?

Naw, she's got the Air subtype. The Earth guardian was killed way back when.

[Rakim Avishot]

Wow, fanservice galore. Am I the only one who finds a half-naked stick figure amazingly sexy? :smallbiggrin: Edit: I wonder if high charisma translates into a high cup size ifyouknowwhatImean. :smallwink:

And Mr. Scruffy is so cute! That's the first time we've seen him purr!

Yes I do, and yes it does. Remember this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html)? One of the my favorites! :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[Rakim Avishot]

... Wait, are you saying this comic has a fourth wall? :smallconfused:


Duh! Elan shows off his meta knowledge all the time! The best jokes have to do with the fourth wall.

[Lokasenna]

Wow.

I think it's good that Haley had her hair trimmed and that we haven't seen Haley's Self-Loathing. If anything worse comes her way, at least she won't be suffering under the stress of her mind shattering.

This is a good place to cut away to V, Team Evil, or the Linear Guild, but with the way things are going at the moment, Roy will be resurrected, and that can't happen off screen. So either a few more comics, or something else is going to happen.

[Jeivar]

:smallannoyed: Really, now. You're seriously under the impression that all real-world people are willing to kill in self-defense?

Yes. Absolutely yes. If a person is about to be MURDERED, they are of course going to defend themselves, with whatever amount of force is necessary. To just lie down and die because you aren't willing to harm the one trying to MURDER you, would be just flat-out insane. Survival-instinct is built into every creature on earth.

[hamishspence]

Non-violent resistance makes a big point of not fighting back. But then it is going against survival instinct- for a belief, or to show the world just how bad the bad guys are for killing the (intentionally) helpless.

Lots of creatures act against their own survival instincts when there is something at stake. In animals, its usually their offspring. in humans, their belief or their group.

[Hatu]

Meh, you can speculate all day long about who would have been able to do what, but it's just that: Idle speculation. Bilbo didn't give in to the ring, so it's impossible to say that had he killed Gollum that he would have necessarily have succumbed to its influence. Frodo didn't, after all, and Frodo thought Bilbo should have offed the sod. So a lack of pity doesn't mean the ring controls you.


What are you talking about? The first thing Frodo does when he meets Gollum is to take pity on him and spare his life. Gandalf says explicitly that lack of pity does help the Ring to control you, and everything we see in the book validates that statement.

Besides, you're the one speculating. We saw that leaving Gollum alive lead to the destruction of the Ring.



But if you want to stick to the facts: Gollum was evil, and he died. So yes, it is an absolute rule. In LotR at least, and in most D&D games as well. Sheleb lived, but only to sleep for a few hundred years to heal up. By which time the age was over and she probably either died of boredom or sailed off to the elven lands like anyone else with any angst at how things had turned out did. Every other evil character died, mostly horrible deaths.


I don't recall Bill Ferny dying. And Frodo specifically forbid the killing of hobbits in the Scourging of the Shire, even if they had sided with Sharkey.

I think this has little to do with Celia, though. She isn't arguing for mercy in the latest comic.

-H

[dps]

Awesome, even if it doesn't advance the plot much.

[JT Jag]

I smell a scene change. Back to Roy, probably, which segues to... V, maybe.

[imp_fireball]

Belkar clearly means for the black chick he met earlier to start a solo adventure of D20 through reading one of those wotc choose-your-own-adventure-style books, and then he'll join in later on for a co-op quest as GM/player two.

She's naked because it's comfortable. No double entendre/innuendo whatsoever.



Jenny in a bedsheet is Hubba Hubba. Without going into details, even after seeing the lady naked, she is still sexy when half-covered. Imagination and anticipation come into play for the guy. :) :) :)


WTF does this mean, it makes absolutely no sense. It is without reason, please start behaving in a way so that other humans may understand what by mankind you mean. Because there isn't supposed to be any innuendo, y'know. Rich would never do that to us.


My first reaction to the stip was a big 'Ewwww!' at how nasty the last panel was. xD


But that clearly wasn't the intention of Rich, so your repulsions are allayed. And my clearing statement makes perfect sense too!

[Kish]

Yes. Absolutely yes.
Wow. That would be a statement of truly astounding presumption even if it wasn't so easily disproven.

[imp_fireball]

I think Celia just broke the comic for me...

There's no way Haley (or any slightly intelligent sentient being) would spend as much as one second with her after this. She's become too much of a liability. I'm pretty sure V would have simply disintegrated her by now.

This has caused me to lose my suspension of disbelief, and in a stick figure comic based on a role playing game in a fantasy setting, that's saying something.

Except Celia is Roy's boyfriend, so it'd be a little awkward the morning after.

:roy: Oh boy, how long was I dead for?

:haley: Hehe, uh... long time was it?

:belkar: Yah Roy, buddy, pretty long time I'd say.

:roy: So...

:haley: So!

:roy: Where's Celia?

:haley: Celia?

:roy: Celia, my girlfriend?

:haley: Oh that Celia?!

:belkar: Oh, she left you Roy... y'know she couldn't stand you being dead that long. Just couldn't take it, I'm sorry...

:roy: 'Kay, now I know Belkar's lying because you haven't really put any ranks in bluff and perhaps maybe you should've waited for Haley to jump in.

:belkar: Ah. Okay then. Crap.

:roy: Haley?

:haley: NO WE DIDN'T USE A SCROLL OF DISINTEGRATE ON YOUR GIRLFRIEND!

:roy: WTF?!

:belkar: Yah, sorry Roy, but y'know... she's a bitch. So we had to off her.

:roy: *suddenly cheerful* Hehe... That's Belkar for you ladies and gentlemen!

:haley: Actually... it was me. She legally took half my assets. I couldn't take it...

:roy: Whaaaaat! ROY SMASH!

[SSGW Priest]

Does he get a size penalty to that check?

That is disturbing, but remember all the way back when OOTS changed editions and the reduction in size of :belkar:'s other weapons. Maybe that is why he was so mad.

[Mc. Lovin']

Does he get a size penalty to that check?

Ha ha ha ha, brilliant :smallbiggrin:

[Bilbo27]

Now thats-Living the High Life!

[Ganurath]

Wow. That would be a statement of truly astounding presumption even if it wasn't so easily disproven.I'll agree as far as I can understand that a truly commited pacifist would rather die than kill if it came down to it, but let me ask you this: Is it reasonable to impose one's belief's on others in such a case, to prevent them from defending themselves to prevent what violence can be prevented?

[SirEdward]

Wow. Hours of screaming and they got nowhere? Sounds like the U.S. Senate. :smallamused:

Seriously, Haley. Just tell her about your father already.
Ahem, U.S. Senators spends hours screaming at one another because each wants to be the one who screws the citizenry over the hardest. In the end, none of them win, so they all try harder.


Oh, you don't let the lady go Solo Belkar. It's bad form...
As strange as it seems, some women like to be treated like garbage. Such women as often as not end up with jerks like Belkar and star on shows like Jerry Springer and COPS. Poor Jenny likes her bad boys.

Now some people out there don't understand the Celia hate. Let me help clear things up. It has little to do with the money, so please no more father excuses or unearned money excuses, as they are immaterial. In the end, Celia is a Millstone who is Too Dumb to Live, and add a side of Jerkass.

In her recent portrayals, she comes off as self-absorbed, self-righteous, pushy, and spiteful. I would not have have the slightest reaction if she started preaching about something stupid like Global Warming in the next strip, as I already expect that kind of thing from her vegan-friendly soapbox.

I hope this is intentional, as while I hated Miko, I enjoyed her as an antagonist.

[Morchaint]

I used to like celia. I really did. but when she goes and gives someone elses property away just to "possibly" save lives that have nothing to do with her.

she gets old. quick. so now shes just a whiny outsider whos shaky logic and even more questionable morals.

yes belkar has changed but hasnt changed he may have learned a few things but I truly doubt that he has ACTUALLY evolved.

its like taking a different road to work. you may like the scenery better but
alas you are still going to the same workplace.

actually I think that we should go back to v., becuase in my opinion that is the longest running cliffhanger we have going on.

[lordofthe_wog]

Rawr.

Score one for the Belkster.

[puddingpie]

What are you talking about? The first thing Frodo does when he meets Gollum is to take pity on him and spare his life. Gandalf says explicitly that lack of pity does help the Ring to control you, and everything we see in the book validates that statement.

Besides, you're the one speculating. We saw that leaving Gollum alive lead to the destruction of the Ring.

I don't recall Bill Ferny dying. And Frodo specifically forbid the killing of hobbits in the Scourging of the Shire, even if they had sided with Sharkey.



Thank you, my point exactly.




I think this has little to do with Celia, though. She isn't arguing for mercy in the latest comic.

-H

Middle-Earth and our world aren't ones that allow for resurrection, so their definition of mercy is limited to "not killing/inflicting grave bodily harm on someone." In a world like D&D where "un-killing" someone (i.e. bringing them back to life) is an option, I could see how resurrection falls under the definition of mercy. A real life equivalent would be, after severely wounding an attacker in self defense, calling the paramedics so he can be treated instead of letting him die. You are trying your best to undo the harm that you did, with resurrection simply being a magical and much more effective procedure. My point was that the events in Lord of the Rings make an argument, within the epic fantasy adventure genre, for giving evil people second chances.

Yeah, Gandalf didn't oppose Bilbo (or anyone else) fighting in self-defense, unlike Celia. I (personally) think also that once your friends are in mortal danger, pacifist or not, it's the right thing to fight to defend them, if not yourself. However, I still do think it's morally admirable once you have successfully "self-defensed" yourselves and are out of imminent danger, to come to the aid of your enemy.

Just out of curiosity... I know that combat medics IRL have a moral obligation to save the lives of wounded enemy soldiers. If resurrection were possible IRL, would medics use it to save the enemy? Would people even go to war at all? Just an odd thing I thought of just now.

[IdAnthony]

Celia's actions bothered me, until I sat and actually considered WHY they bothered me. I think the mistaken reasons so many people are annoyed with her are three-fold:

1) She's a NPC and she solved the problem, not Haley or Belkar.
Where exactly is it written that she is an NPC anyway?

2) After playing / running many adventures, we tend to be trained that killing the "bad-guys" is good, and letting them live is bad, even though killing is actually bad.

3) She essentially took half the money Haley stole from people. The argument is that "oh, it's okay she stole it, she needs it for her daddy!" Actually, I think that is an excuse of logic for a character that simply LOVES MONEY! There are numerous other ways to save Haley's father, and she has not tried any of them.

Celia has the same respect for Haley's principles of greed, that Haley had for Celia's distaste for killing people. None.

So I applaud Celia. Sure giving away stolen money is kind of a mean thing to do, but nobody's perfect. Especially not someone who is Lawful Good.

Yeesh, I'll try to keep these posts shorter from now on :smalltongue:

[maxon]

Oh dear, and I'd just started to like him. Ah well, he is chaotic evil, I guess that sort of thing is to be expected.

So, Haley's had an art upgrade. Like the hair.



What about Saruman? He didn't die.

He so did too. Ah - you mean the film? You need to read the book.

Edit - Ninja'd

[Mollusk]

Solo adventure! <snort> ha ha ha. Set the scene for that sultry, slippery night Belkar!

[Scarlet Knight]

Well, I'm finishing my shift, and plan to call the Mrs. and ask if she'll meet me in a sheet for a little roleplaying. :smallwink:

Part of me wants to thank the Giant for inspiring me, the other part is worried that I was inspired by a naked stick figure....:smalleek:

[SirEdward]

It's official; Belkar is actually a cat in halfing form. He's completely interested in his own interests and only marginally considers others before acting on them, and luxuriates in hedonism when he gets the chance.

Yep, sounds like a cat to me. No wonder he and Mr. Scruffy get along so well!
That reminds me...

Granny Weatherwax: "You haven't got the morals of a cat, Gytha Ogg."
Nanny Ogg: "Now, Esme, you know that's not true."
Granny Weatherwax: "All right. You have got the morals of a cat."
Nanny Ogg: "That's better."

[Mollusk]

Part of me wants to thank the Giant for inspiring me, the other part is worried that I was inspired by a naked stick figure....:smalleek:

That Mr. Burlew is one talented man, isn't he? <giggle>

[Kish]

I'll agree as far as I can understand that a truly commited pacifist would rather die than kill if it came down to it, but let me ask you this: Is it reasonable to impose one's belief's on others in such a case, to prevent them from defending themselves to prevent what violence can be prevented?
I'm not getting into that. I wouldn't hesitate to kill in self defense, personally. I'm just incredulous that there's actually someone on this forum who thinks there's no one in the world who would.

(I mean, really. That assertion's up there with if Celia had insisted, "Yes, humans CAN SO shoot lightning out of their fingers whenever they want!")

[SirEdward]

Just out of curiosity... I know that combat medics IRL have a moral obligation to save the lives of wounded enemy soldiers. If resurrection were possible IRL, would medics use it to save the enemy? Would people even go to war at all? Just an odd thing I thought of just now.
Well, considering the rarity of diamonds...no. I doubt most soldiers would get the benefit from their own side's medics once significant casualties mount. Further, there are so many spell slots used by only so many clerics per day. Since most wars are fought over money and resources, and it would be contra-intuitive to waste more than one intends to gain (or prevent from losing).

Also, please note that this moral obligation is, in the grand perspective, a rather new and inconsistently enforced concept, with entire continents totally disregarding it.

[jackal59]

Is it wrong that something about the appearance of the other character (no, not the cat) in the last two panels started me humming "The Crying Game" to myself?

[Raven Blackwell]

Yes. Absolutely yes. If a person is about to be MURDERED, they are of course going to defend themselves, with whatever amount of force is necessary. To just lie down and die because you aren't willing to harm the one trying to MURDER you, would be just flat-out insane. Survival-instinct is built into every creature on earth.

No, there are some human beings so brainwashed into thinking the 'passive=good' brainwashing of society that they would allow themselves to be murdered and think themselves a saint rather than a fool for the fact. Of course in doing so they prove Mr. Darwin right.....

[SirEdward]

:smallannoyed: Really, now. You're seriously under the impression that all real-world people are willing to kill in self-defense?

I, for a fact, know a few people that would rather allow dozens of innocents to suffer and die just so their pacifistic moral superiority remains untainted. Some people never consider mitigating circumstances or the double effect.


No, there are some human beings so brainwashed into thinking the 'passive=good' brainwashing of society that they would allow themselves to be murdered and think themselves a saint rather than a fool for the fact. Of course in doing so they prove Mr. Darwin right.....
Well, stupidity is essentially willful, intentional ignorance, often with a side of sloth. It is a shame that stupidity of that level is based upon the same cerebral architecture that allows humanity to thrive, that is, abstract thought. Since abstract thought is what keeps us weak, naked, hornless, clawless, fangless creatures from being gobbled up or starved, stupidity is usually a tolerated evil. Then we get Gilligans and Celias...

[Dacia Brabant]

Well, considering the rarity of diamonds...no. I doubt most soldiers would get the benefit from their own side's medics once significant casualties mount. Further, there are so many spell slots used by only so many clerics per day. Since most wars are fought over money and resources, and it would be contra-intuitive to waste more than one intends to gain (or prevent from losing).

Best point I've read yet. Not even getting into real-life comparisons, but in-game how often do people even get resurrected? Hardly ever, at least in any game I've played.

People keep pounding away at the "revolving door afterlife" joke but, how many characters in the comic have even been resurrected yet? Oh right, none, and the only one who even got the chance so far happened to be the ruler of a (formerly) wealthy and powerful nation. Yes I realize that Roy and the Teleport Wizard both would have been rezzed if circumstances had allowed for it, but that's the point exactly--it's really hard to have the right situation where a resurrection is possible in anything that's not a video game.

And once you start talking real-world applications, gosh do people even in the wealthiest countries have easy access to life-saving medicine?


Also, please note that this moral obligation is, in the grand perspective, a rather new and inconsistently enforced concept, with entire continents totally disregarding it.

Abso-freaking-lutely. I'm trying very hard not to launch into full-on rant mode right now because I don't want to get banned, but every time I hear people preaching uncritical pollyanna crap from a completely privileged perspective, it gets a little harder to hold my peace.

[Yougottawanna]

How is it that everyone else knows who "Jenny" is and I have no idea?

[Draz74]

How is it that everyone else knows who "Jenny" is and I have no idea?

You missed 611 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html)?


People keep pounding away at the "revolving door afterlife" joke but, how many characters in the comic have even been resurrected yet? Oh right, none,

Well, if you count prequel books, we learn that Eugene's died and come back like 6 times.

[EvilJames]

Why willful or naive?
So she does defer to Haley. Why should she? Haley has no authority over Celia, and Haley can not be trusted to do what is Right (i.e. Lawful Good). So Celia is not going to go to Haley for moral advice.
Celia found a peaceful, non-violent solution to the conflict that saved lives. She did Good in a Lawful fashion. She used money that did not rightfully belong to Haley to do so. She was aware that Haley would be unhappy about that, but believes that is due to Haley's greed. Since Haley had told Celia she expected to die Celia probably believed at the time of making the agreement that she was saving Haley's life.
What Celia did was right from a LG non-adventurer point of view.
Haley from her Chaotic Good adventurer viewpoint disagrees.
Neither is wrong, but nor do either of them have the wisdom to understand each other.



She was smart enough to see the opportunity for a peaceful solution to the conflict and smart enough to achieve it. She is neither stupid nor foolish.

She was nice enough to want to find a peaceful solution. I find that pretty sympathetic.
This is quite possibly the best explanation of Celia I've seen.

[EvilJames]

Yes. Absolutely yes. If a person is about to be MURDERED, they are of course going to defend themselves, with whatever amount of force is necessary. To just lie down and die because you aren't willing to harm the one trying to MURDER you, would be just flat-out insane. Survival-instinct is built into every creature on earth.

Please tell that to Ghandi. See where that gets you. Or any other who have advocated change through non-violence. It's the very core of the belief

Remember there is a difference between passive and pacifist.

Celia is a pacifist. She believes no good can really come from violence or at the very least greater good comes form non violent solutions. Was she in the right? Meh. It's tough to say. She has valid points and invalid ones (as do most people) but I would hardly call her stupid. She did after all come up with a solution that solves all of her and Haley's current problems after all. It's just not the cheapest solution.

[pearl jam]

What about Saruman? He didn't die.

Btw, awesome comic!

He absolutely died. And his spirit was not allowed to return to the West due to his fall. This was not covered in the movies which skipped over the Scouring of the Shire subplot.

[Tusalu]

Did anyone else notice something underneath the sheets on the floor? :smalleek:

[EvilJames]

Well, considering the rarity of diamonds...no. I doubt most soldiers would get the benefit from their own side's medics once significant casualties mount. Further, there are so many spell slots used by only so many clerics per day. Since most wars are fought over money and resources, and it would be contra-intuitive to waste more than one intends to gain (or prevent from losing).

Also, please note that this moral obligation is, in the grand perspective, a rather new and inconsistently enforced concept, with entire continents totally disregarding it.

well if we took into account the real rarity of diamonds and not just the artificial rarity enforced by De beers.... Well let's just say the value of life would take a dip.

[Azazel]

New hair on ms. Starshine. Will there be a new outfit?
Anyway... can't be bothered with the Lawful vs Chaotic war of opinion both in the comic and on the forum. Okay as a plot device but as a new fad topic it unimpresses. Yes, people don't like Celia... I think we've established that now. Belkar is still a delightful swine as can be expected...

[KIDS]

Well, Belkar should savor his next birthday cake. He's lovable now, but I don't think that's sustainable in the long term...

[Ganurath]

Did anyone else notice something underneath the sheets on the floor? :smalleek:Those things that were making the sheet rustle? Yeah, those are called feet.

[Tusalu]

Those things that were making the sheet rustle? Yeah, those are called feet.

In the first panel with Jenny, you can definatly see something underneath the sheet, by the door. Not her feet.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

It's been a little while since an OotS strip actually cracked me up this much. :smallbiggrin:

[Aviator]

It's going to cost a lot of money to resurrect those guild people
did a diamond for resurrection costed 5000gp? then the overall price comes for this...
PS: it goes by strip by strip in order from strip 603
603-4 4+3 killed by Haley
611 9+2 killed by belkar and the Cleric of Loki respectively
612 4 killed by belkar (count the dead guy at the stair,not counting Pete)
614 2 other kills of Belkar is seen here,)
615 3 killed by Haley
618 3 killed by Haley

That totals up for 30 kills
30*5000= 150000 gold(150K) which is pretty much, I doubt Haley has THAT much gold. He got 30000 gp from Grubwiggler(or what it was) and about 20K gp from the division of the booty, but the sum needed is veeery much. I hope that the guild has some 100K gp in their stocks.

[Smittaugh]

I hope that the guild has some 100K gp in their stocks.

They're basically the mob. They don't exactly have a powerful need for cashy money. Influence, calling in old debts, doing favors, applying some violent pressure...there are myriad ways for them to pay for the raising without actually paying for it. Considering the way they are spinning this whole affair, people might be lining up to offer some discounts. While I'm not counting on it, it's a possibility.

As far as something under the sheets, I see it too. Not where you do, though. On the last panel, there's something beige right under her. Could be a mis-colored section over what could be the back of Jenny's knee, but there it is.

[Nevrmore]

Celia's actions bothered me, until I sat and actually considered WHY they bothered me. I think the mistaken reasons so many people are annoyed with her are three-fold:

1) She's a NPC and she solved the problem, not Haley or Belkar.
Where exactly is it written that she is an NPC anyway?
No one has said that.


2) After playing / running many adventures, we tend to be trained that killing the "bad-guys" is good, and letting them live is bad, even though killing is actually bad.
No one has said that.


3) She essentially took half the money Haley stole from people. The argument is that "oh, it's okay she stole it, she needs it for her daddy!" Actually, I think that is an excuse of logic for a character that simply LOVES MONEY! There are numerous other ways to save Haley's father, and she has not tried any of them.
The fact still remains that it's a giant d-ck move for Celia to use Haley's money and not tell her about it, whether or not she thinks it's justified is moot.


Celia has the same respect for Haley's principles of greed, that Haley had for Celia's distaste for killing people. None.
The difference being that Haley didn't wrap Celia's arms around a sword and force her to stab someone to death.


So I applaud Celia. Sure giving away stolen money is kind of a mean thing to do, but nobody's perfect. Especially not someone who is Lawful Good.
D-ck move.

[factotum]

New hair on ms. Starshine. Will there be a new outfit?

Haley already HAD a new outfit for a while--she changed back into her original outfit when Belkar was sick all over them after killing the Oracle.

[Adeptus]

In her recent portrayals, she comes off as self-absorbed, self-righteous, pushy, and spiteful. I would not have have the slightest reaction if she started preaching about something stupid like Global Warming in the next strip, as I already expect that kind of thing from her vegan-friendly soapbox.

I hope this is intentional, as while I hated Miko, I enjoyed her as an antagonist.

{Scrubbed}

Maybe you'd like to explain to a poor Ecology Major / Environmental Science student like myself how I'm deluding myself with this global warming ripoff, or how vegans are a convenient hate group.

{Scrubbed}

[Shortgeek]

Rich has a great talent for surprising me (and I think most of his other readers). I just get the feeling the Roy's resurrection isn't perhaps as close to hand as we expect. There is SURE to be some kind of complication, probably with great humorous impact.

Perhaps a cutaway... team evil (and Maybe O'Chul (yay !)) or Maybe the Linear Guild.... or who knows what else. I just have the feeling that whatever I expect it won't be that simple and it will be a lot funnier than anything predicted so far.

I wonder about how the guild knows what they are entitled to 50% of..... for example all that dragon treasure that was destroyed in the INN explosion leading to all the cryptograms. First off, it's gone so there's a problem giving them 50%. More importantly who would tell them about it.

I can see Haley having a conversation with Hank like this:

Hank - so how much have you earned since you left the guild ?
Haley - errr, what's the lowest figure you would believe ?

Great series of recent strips recently in general.

If I steal twenty bags of money from a building, but have to drop ten of them in order to get back to HQ safely, then I only owe FIVE. I don't owe half as much as I've ever stolen, I owe half as much as I succeessfully stole and reported back with.

So Haley doesn't need to pay half the dragon hoard. All she needs to do is pay half her current possessions, which simplifies things enormously.

[raphfrk]

So Haley doesn't need to pay half the dragon hoard. All she needs to do is pay half her current possessions, which simplifies things enormously.

It also depends on what the guild will accept as 'expenses'. The formula might be

(Total stolen) - (Total lost/spoiled) - (expenses)

Something like arrows in Azure may fall under expenses. The guild could argue that helping the resistance was not a necessary expense as part of her stealing career. She could argue that they were necessary expenses to stay alive and thus necessary in order to get back to Greysky.

Btw, there was a suggestion that Haley say, that instead of giving them money, she tells them where gold representing more than her debt is stored.

Can gold actually be destroyed in a fire, would the metal still be in the ruins, or would the vault work like a bag of holding and be destroyed forever?

[SSGW Priest]

Well, considering the rarity of diamonds...no. I doubt most soldiers would get the benefit from their own side's medics once significant casualties mount. Further, there are so many spell slots used by only so many clerics per day. Since most wars are fought over money and resources, and it would be contra-intuitive to waste more than one intends to gain (or prevent from losing).

Also, please note that this moral obligation is, in the grand perspective, a rather new and inconsistently enforced concept, with entire continents totally disregarding it.

Sticking to the modern, failure to provide the enemy POWs with the same level of care as our own Soldiers = war crime. Yes, I know our Soldiers will not be treated as such, but this standard is what is in the treaties. This being said, I can't see the governments raising foot soldiers anyways so the issue of raising enemy Soldiers is moot.

It would be amusing to see what the Geneva Conventions would look like in a magic based world.

[hamishspence]

BoED is fairly close-

No poison or disease as weapons (though later books have ruled poison back in)
Must always accept offers of surrender (no slaughtering the soldiers with hands in the air)
No mistreatment of prisoners
No attacking non-combatants- even in a battle situation with non-combatants and soldiers in the same area

There are others but these of the most Geneva-ish things in BoED.

[Monan]

Looks like we are seeing what Belkar was doing during that time. More conflicts between Celia and Haley arise.

But it's more of his character development. I think this is the sincere kind too. :smallbiggrin:

[IdAnthony]

1)
No one has said that.
I was listing three things I thought, and am unaware of any rule that states all ideas have to be replies to what has previously been stated in the same thread. That said, here:


...So, I still don't see why Celia is in the wrong, besides being an NPC.

2)
No one has said that.

Wrong. I have said it. That is taken from playing and watching games with different groups over many years.

3)
The fact still remains that it's a giant d-ck move for Celia to use Haley's money and not tell her about it, whether or not she thinks it's justified is moot.

It's also a d-ck move to fool your fellow party members out of their share of the treasure after a battle, but I don't see any Haley hating going on.

4)
The difference being that Haley didn't wrap Celia's arms around a sword and force her to stab someone to death.

This is an excellent point. I believe it is only a matter of time, but I have no counterpoint to this as of yet. Well played.


D-ck move.
Duck move? Isn't that like, 20 feet a round on land? :smallconfused:

[Adeptus]

Please tell that to Ghandi. See where that gets you. Or any other who have advocated change through non-violence. It's the very core of the belief

Remember there is a difference between passive and pacifist.

Celia is a pacifist. She believes no good can really come from violence or at the very least greater good comes form non violent solutions.

Celia isn't above violence, just against killing.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html

[hamishspence]

the money isn't out of Haley's hands yet. By contrast Haley did take a potion out of Belkar's pocket. And lie to him about it. True, it was to save someone's life. But, in a sense, thats exactly the reason Celia's doing this, in Roy's case- bringing him back to life.

[Selene]

1.) Bilbo is never wrong. Disabuse yourselves of the notion that he can ever be wrong. Compassionate Bilbo, who allowed Gollum to live, was the only being to ever walk away from the Ring of his own free will. Bilbo = Mighty.

2.) If we're comparing Celia to Gilligan, the let me ask this. How many people other than the morons on the island with him would have put Gilligan in charge of all the things they did? I mean, seriously, whenever they had something important to do, they made Gilligan do it. And then they blamed the stupid guy for screwing it up. What were all of them doing while he was doing the actual work? Baking pies? Counting their money? Making batteries out of seawater? Shouting? :smallannoyed: Know your teammates' strengths and weaknesses, and anticipate their reactions. Especially if you are their leader.

Also...

Ok, who ordered a redneck troll, with a heaping side-order of ignorance?

Maybe you'd like to explain to a poor Ecology Major / Environmental Science student like myself how I'm deluding myself with this global warming ripoff, or how vegans are a convenient hate group.

What a throughly unpleasant person :smallyuk:

Win! LOL.

[hamishspence]

Not just that, but he walked away having used it a heaping big number of times, to make himself invisible.

Bilbo has done very Celia-ish things though.

His party & multiple other groups are opposed

He takes a big chunk of loot from his party, gives it to the other groups, and tells them they can use it to get what they want from the first group, and avoid conflict.

[amuletts]

Woo! You go Belkie!

[BillyJimBoBob]

What about Saruman? He didn't die.Read the books... The movies were great, simply stellar scenery and epic cinematography overall, but they don't follow the books in many cases. Saruman died a horrible death.


What are you talking about? The first thing Frodo does when he meets Gollum is to take pity on him and spare his life. Gandalf says explicitly that lack of pity does help the Ring to control you, and everything we see in the book validates that statement.Frodo was the one who mourned the fact that Bilbo didn't kill Gollum... That's not mercy, is it? Sparing someone's life is easy, all you have to do is not kill them. It's not a demonstration of mercy, necessarily. Mercy is in the heart as well as in your actions, and in his heart Frodo wished Gollum had been killed.
Gandalf speculates a lot about the corrupting powers of the ring, but it is not demonstrated anywhere that a person who doesn't extend mercy to his opponents will absolutely fall under the influence of the ring.


Besides, you're the one speculating. We saw that leaving Gollum alive lead to the destruction of the Ring.Sure. In the same way that anyone else alive could have destroyed the ring. What is fact is that Gollum caused the journey to Mount Doom to be much more difficult, and had Bilbo killed him the story would have been far shorter. No Nazgul on their trail, no encounter with Shelob, no capture of Merry and Pippin, no death of Boromir. So many of the troubles faced by the various members of the Fellowship were either caused directly or due to Gollum. Had Bilbo killed him in The Hobbit those events could not be laid on Gollum.


I don't recall Bill Ferny dying. And Frodo specifically forbid the killing of hobbits in the Scourging of the Shire, even if they had sided with Sharkey.Bill was not a nice person, but he was a minor character and not any kind of antagonist. Dealing with evil people doesn't make you evil. And the same applies to the hobbits. Many of them "sided" with Saruman out of fear and his incredible powers of persuasion, not because they were evil.

And by the way, Bill couldn't have "informed" on the Hobbits if Gollum hadn't been alive to have this information tortured out of him.


Yes. Absolutely yes [any person will kill rather than be killed]. If a person is about to be MURDERED, they are of course going to defend themselves, with whatever amount of force is necessary. To just lie down and die because you aren't willing to harm the one trying to MURDER you, would be just flat-out insane. Survival-instinct is built into every creature on earth.Tell that to the survivors, if there are any, of anyone who has dug their own grave and then had a bullet put into them. They knew that their bones were going to line that hole they just dug. Or people with no combat training who just stand in shock as people around them are killed, and them themselves. Many people don't "go down fighting" out of simple despair, shock, or lack of training. You don't have to be a true pacifist to be killed without putting up a struggle.

[DrivinAllNight]

snipped and hi-lited by me...
Or people with no combat training who just stand in shock as people around them are killed, and then themselves. Many people don't "go down fighting", out of simple despair, shock, or lack of training. You don't have to be a true pacifist to be killed without putting up a struggle.

your right, a true pacifist will do absolutely nothing by their own choice, not because they are scared or frightened or shocked into inaction. When bullets start flying most people will stand in shock or run away, a pacifist won't, they may go running, but that is just the coward in them.

If a pacifist were your father and someone broke into your house and did unspeakable things to you and let you live, and your pacifist father watched but did NOTHING to stop it because of his pacifism, you would not only hate the attacker, but you would also have a new found hatred for your own father who was supposed to be your protector and keep you safe from harm.

[BillyJimBoBob]

1.) Bilbo is never wrong. Disabuse yourselves of the notion that he can ever be wrong. Compassionate Bilbo, who allowed Gollum to live, was the only being to ever walk away from the Ring of his own free will. Bilbo = Mighty.
Sam was probably much better at this than Bilbo was. And he wanted to kill Gollum and actively argued for it several times. So I think we can settle the discussion of mercy being necessary to avoid the corruption of the ring as being incorrect by reason of demonstration within the books.



your right, a true pacifist will do absolutely nothing by their own choice, not because they are scared or frightened or shocked into inaction. When bullets start flying most people will stand in shock or run away, a pacifist won't, they may go running, but that is just the coward in them.

If a pacifist were your father and someone broke into your house and did unspeakable things to you and let you live, and your pacifist father watched but did NOTHING to stop it because of his pacifism, you would not only hate the attacker, but you would also have a new found hatred for your own father who was supposed to be your protector and keep you safe from harm.You are wrong in so many ways that I don't feel you can possibly understand. A true pacifist isn't necessarily a coward. It can take incredible courage to refrain from aggression. And no, I would not hate my father in the scenario you paint. For many reasons, none of which you could probably comprehend.

[DrivinAllNight]

snipped.....
Maybe you'd like to explain to a poor Ecology Major / Environmental Science student like myself how I'm deluding myself with this global warming ripoff, or how vegans are a convenient hate group.

I can help explain the GW part, since yeah, AG doesn't have it right, and a history search reveals we have been debating Global Warming and Global Freezing for about 100+ years, in fact it was mid 70's that i Believe Time magazine warned of the coming Global Freezing, and further back, it is about every 25-35 years that this notion (I say MYTH) of man made climate change rears its ugly head, so no the world isn't ending in a flaming ball of fire as AG put it, in fact we have cooled since he started talking about it, muting his whole premise. And for those who don't know, the underwater current around England that had stopped and its stoppage was being blamed on GW has actually restarted itself and SCIENTIST do not know how it did it all on its own!!!
As far as the Vegan being a convenient hate group, I can't defend that aspect, since they have every right to not eat meat and leave more for me :smallsmile:

Oh yeah, and since I forgot in my last post, I SO LOVE BELKAR'S NEW ATTITUDE, he so rocks, and the rustle is just the sheet, and the thing under or behind Jenny in the last panel looks like a drawing error to me, that's my 2GP.
Peace, out :)

[Dacia Brabant]

1.) Bilbo is never wrong. Disabuse yourselves of the notion that he can ever be wrong. Compassionate Bilbo, who allowed Gollum to live, was the only being to ever walk away from the Ring of his own free will. Bilbo = Mighty.

What about Sam?


Sure. In the same way that anyone else alive could have destroyed the ring.

Right, just like Isildur could have destroyed it...but didn't. Could doesn't equal will. Gandalf wouldn't take it, Elrond wouldn't take it, Galadriel wouldn't take it, Aragorn wouldn't take it, Faramir wouldn't take it, that's pretty much all your big heroes right there, because in their hearts they all knew that they'd claim the Ring for their own instead of destroying it. Even Frodo claims it for his own. That's the point. Nobody could destroy it willingly, the lure of power represented by the Ring is too strong. And while Bilbo and Sam gave it up they didn't destroy it and it's not clear they'd have been able to.

[Traker]

Good comic giant.:smallsmile:

[DrivinAllNight]

You are wrong in so many ways that I don't feel you can possibly understand. A true pacifist isn't necessarily a coward. It can take incredible courage to refrain from aggression. And no, I would not hate my father in the scenario you paint. For many reasons, none of which you could probably comprehend.

Most pacifist I knew were cowards to an extent, scared of their own lives and scared to do anything, so that being a pacifist meant escape to them, they may not have been the dictionary definition in all cases, but none really are, and do not assume that I am so stupid that I could not understand your logic or reasoning. If you feel you need to explain yourself please feel free to do so, or is that being confrontational instead of informative? Not sure how a pacifist thinks. And refraining from aggression is what man does every day, but to refrain from defending oneself and ones family is inconceivable if you have the means to do so. Should someone break into my house and try to hurt my daughter, I will use ANY means with which to stop them, even if it costs my life. A pacifist might even restrain from calling the police, knowing the police might hurt the person that is hurting their family, that isn't restraint, that is self destruction in the long run. And I'm off to work before I am late.
Peace, Out :)

[Scarlet Knight]

Wow. Sarcasm?

I am not a pacifist, nor am I a Quaker. But I was taught that God said in the 10 Commandments "Thou shalt not kill." It was not "Thou shalt not kill...except under these circumstances." I may not follow that to the letter, but I cannot say that someone who does is wrong.

Some pacifists may be cowards. But I don't claim to know the hearts of all of them. A pacifist may endure what I cannot, even though it is self destructive, because he is loyal to his God. If that is so, then that person is far braver than I.

[Kobold-Bard]

I feel bad for :vaarsuvius:. S/He is the only member of the OOTS that hasn't gotten any yet during the comic.

Maybe thats why s/he's so wound up at the moment.

Who knows.

Awesome comic as always.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Could doesn't equal will.And "didn't" doesn't equal "could not". So I'm afraid I don't see your point.

[Aevii]

Wow. Sarcasm?

I am not a pacifist, nor am I a Quaker. But I was taught that God said in the 10 Commandments "Thou shalt not kill." It was not "Thou shalt not kill...except under these circumstances." I may not follow that to the letter, but I cannot say that someone who does is wrong.

Some pacifists may be cowards. But I don't claim to know the hearts of all of them. A pacifist may endure what I cannot, even though it is self destructive, because he is loyal to his God. If that is so, then that person is far braver than I.
King James version, eh?

That's arguably a most vegan statement, incidently, because it doesn't go on to say what you may not kill-whether you are chopping down trees or eating fish.

Another commonly accepted version of that commandment is "Thou shalt not murder" which is a lot more concrete in what it means. After all, it was after Moses brought down the tablets that Joshua sieged and took Jericho. Are we presuming the people of old did all that with no intentional enemy casualties involved?

There is already enough confict between one sect or another on how to interpret a single translation of the Bible, even before we compare one translation to another. (Not to mention grammar differences will add up to varying translation issues on their own)

[enarch3t]

Most translations of the 6th commandment have it as thou shalt not murder, not thou shalt not kill.

For what that's worth.

[Dacia Brabant]

And "didn't" doesn't equal "could not". So I'm afraid I don't see your point.


"But do you remember Gandalf's words: Even Gollum may have something yet to do? But for him, Sam, I could not have destroyed the Ring. The Quest would have been in vain, even at the bitter end. So let us forgive him! For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over. (Bold added for emphasis)

There are similar comments made throughout the book by Gandalf, Galadriel and others that indicate they too could not have destroyed it, that they would certainly use it and thereby fall under its power and Middle-earth would get a new Dark Lord in Sauron's place. (That was Sauron's whole gambit by the way, once he discovered the Ring still existed if he couldn't have it brought to him that his enemies would use it to overthrow him and become just like him, in fact ruled by his spirit that's in the Ring.) The entire moral lesson of the book is a distillation of the axiom that absolute power corrupts absolutely.


King James version, eh?

Blame that on the Latin Vulgate, they mistranslated retzach first, but the NKJV (not to mention almost every single Jewish text) gets it right.

[McMurphy]

Belkar's got a genital?
I'm really surprised and... disturbed...

...somehow...:smallconfused:

Didn't ever think about that. Hooh. *shiver*

[hamsterhuey]

(Pardon if this has been asked.. I just browsed the 9 pages of debate...)

Does the contract actually apply to only Haley's actions as a thief? I.e., what gold she has stolen? Or does it really apply to ALL gold she has acquired. The dragon horde, for example, was 'Spoils of War', not 'Ill gotten gain, acquired through theft.' The statement Celia made was '50% of everything you've stolen since you left the guild'... I dunno that she's really considered to have STOLEN too much.. she's been adventuring.