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View Full Version : [3.5]Would this be too cruel/evil to run on a group of players?



newbDM
2009-01-13, 01:11 AM
So a little while back someone on this board posted a great joke to pull on your PCs. How he described it was as follows:

After PCs finish a dungeon at the very end they see their prize in the last room of the complex. Three treasure chests. One on the right, one on the left, and one in the middle.
In one of the chests a PCs finds a magical sword.
In another of the chests the PCs find a big rock.
In the third chest the PCs find some gold.
If one of the PCs pick up the rock, they discover that the hand (or hands) that grabbed the rock can not let go of it.
If another PC grabs it, then it is stuck as well.
The trick is that you need to use the sword to break the rock.



This has been on my mind on-and-off for at least a month (I am certain more). I had some free time today, so I finally decided to start writing up a dungeon for this.

I just spent the last hour and some trying to sketch the following image for my own take on this puzzle:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/Pictures%20I%20drew/7fed328e.jpg


Before I go on, please let me explain two important point about my homebrewed multiverse which I feel might be important to this. It is both low-magic, and low-wealth. Which means obtaining a magic item is a big deal (think the cliche finding a magic sword can make you a king), and wealth is not as easy to obtain. This also means finding someone/something to remove a curse is not as easy as simply entering any town and hiring a cleric.


So here is the difference I am thinking of making to the above plot:

There is a bit of writing engraved into the bottom of the rock, which seems to have been sanded a small bit (not noticeable at all when it's in the chest or lying on the ground). If you can not read my poor attempt of depicting it in the above image it says "Be Free, but lose thy priz".
In how I want to run it, the blade of the sword will shatter along with the rock.
However, if the PCs decide to keep the sword, they have at least a +4 sowrd in their possession. In my multiverse, they essentially have the equivalent of an artifact in a the average DM's campaign.
In addition, I plan to make this dungeon not very difficult, so this will be the equivalent of an artifact but at a fraction of the effort and work that one would expect.
The other chest will be filled with gold, along with a smattering of platinum and silver.



So, what do the experienced DMs here think about this?


p.s.
I also do not want to waste the image, but I guess that is not a big issue.

Alleine
2009-01-13, 01:22 AM
Personally? I would not be very happy with this, but maybe your players would be more open to it. Some people would feel very cheated to have to lose their totally awesome +4 sword that they just got in order to be free of some crappy trap rock.

It really depends on your players. Are they the kinds of people who covet all their treasure? Or would they be willing to give up the sword so that whoever gets stuck to the rock can be freed?

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-13, 01:37 AM
What word? :smalltongue:

But seriously, I can see a group of PCs actually attempting to abuse the cursed rock.

P1: "Devon the Bold starts learning to write with his off-hand... next level I'll take Improved Critical (rock)... not to mention the fact that I can't be disarmed!"

P2: "Dude, that is sweet."

Of course, it varies with players. Players who had done the Tomb of Horrors before would know better than to put their hands all over some rock they found in a dungeon...

EDIT: Or, y'know, the PC could simply have the hand amputated, and then use that as an excuse to get a hook-hand, which brings him one step closer to being a pirate. Arrgh! :smallbiggrin:

Bassetking
2009-01-13, 01:51 AM
It's a 1st ed. Gygaxian Jerk Move.

Dun' do it.

We had something like this happen in my group once.

The rock actually had a pictogram, showing the sword smashing the rock on its underside, once it had been picked up.


I had my friend take my arm off at the wrist, then bought a regeneration back in town.

Alleine
2009-01-13, 02:02 AM
Heck, amputating might not be a bad idea. They did just get that shiny new Sword of Amputation as it will soon be dubbed. :smalltongue:

sonofzeal
2009-01-13, 02:13 AM
I say, totally do it! I was recently in a similar situation, and it ended up working out really well. What makes it good is that you're choosing between an advantage PLUS a disadvantage, or coming up neutral. That sort of call is tough to make IC and OOC, but worst-case-scenario isn't all that bad either way.

Gygax would have had the rock eat your arm AND break the sword.

newbDM
2009-01-13, 02:26 AM
LoL.

I love how you not only found a loophole in my scheme in under an hour, but found a way for PCs to actually abuse this curse in about 25 (at around 2:00am level of members). :smalleek:

I knew there was a reason I loved these forums. :smallbiggrin:



What word? :smalltongue:

But seriously, I can see a group of PCs actually attempting to abuse the cursed rock.

P1: "Devon the Bold starts learning to write with his off-hand... next level I'll take Improved Critical (rock)... not to mention the fact that I can't be disarmed!"

P2: "Dude, that is sweet."

Of course, it varies with players. Players who had done the Tomb of Horrors before would know better than to put their hands all over some rock they found in a dungeon...

EDIT: Or, y'know, the PC could simply have the hand amputated, and then use that as an excuse to get a hook-hand, which brings him one step closer to being a pirate. Arrgh! :smallbiggrin:

LoL. I love this!

I like it when DM reword players for smart thinking, and I wish to do the same. I think I will make it so the first hand to touch the rock gets curse, so this will work instead of the PC getting stuck to a corpse's skull after he kills his first victim. And I would so let the Weapon Proficiency: (rock), and other feats like Improved Critical: (Rock) if a player was creative enough to come up with it.


Again, if players are imaginative enough to come up with something like amputation to keep their cake and eat it too, then I am all for rewarding them by letting them get away with it.




It's a 1st ed. Gygaxian Jerk Move.

Dun' do it.

We had something like this happen in my group once.

The rock actually had a pictogram, showing the sword smashing the rock on its underside, once it had been picked up.


I had my friend take my arm off at the wrist, then bought a regeneration back in town.

Really? Gygax himself came up with this?!

And I feel much less original now. I thought I had something with the engraving at the bottom.



Also, I do not have a group to DM at the moment. I just like making new material in my free time for fun, and in the hope of getting to use it some day.


And I corrected the spelling mistake. Yeah, sorry, I meant "sword".

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-13, 02:27 AM
Yeah be careful about handing players stuff like this. If they choose not to take the rock or do something else to it first and figure it out then you've just handed them a +4 sword. Then there is the whole idea of them finding alternate means of removing the rock.

I'm not of any opinion one way or another but I would suggest being cautious...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-13, 02:29 AM
First of all, even in a super-low-magic game, a +4 weapon isn't exactly going to allow just anyone to defeat everything they encounter. In a setting like that, convincing people you have such a weapon is probably more important than actually having it. A +1 Flaming weapon is far less powerful mechanically but far more impressive aesthetically and therefore could gain a character more influence among NPCs than a more powerful yet bland +4 weapon. Just having the weapon is no guarantee of becoming king by your own hand, yet convincing people you have a similarly powerful means, regardless of whether or not you actually do, will probably bring you more success.

Depending on the size of the rock, I'd use it to parry attacks and claim that as long as I hold it, I cannot be killed. Any foes who believed it would scour the setting for a way of removing the rock, thinking that it would mean the character's defeat, rather than just disregarding the claim and stabbing him. The rock is the true means of becoming king by one's own hand, not the +4 sword.

newbDM
2009-01-13, 02:33 AM
I say, totally do it! I was recently in a similar situation, and it ended up working out really well. What makes it good is that you're choosing between an advantage PLUS a disadvantage, or coming up neutral. That sort of call is tough to make IC and OOC, but worst-case-scenario isn't all that bad either way.

I see. Thanks for the honest opinion.

Also, I decided to fill the third chest with treasure so they would at least get something. Remember, low-wealth.



Gygax would have had the rock eat your arm AND break the sword.

Really?

Was he a vicious DM?

Well, we was THE FIRST DM, so I guess he was everything, like the Io of D&D.

Frosty
2009-01-13, 02:34 AM
The players can just cast Regenerate and then amputate an arm.

newbDM
2009-01-13, 02:37 AM
Yeah be careful about handing players stuff like this. If they choose not to take the rock or do something else to it first and figure it out then you've just handed them a +4 sword. Then there is the whole idea of them finding alternate means of removing the rock.

I'm not of any opinion one way or another but I would suggest being cautious...

Very good point. What if I make it so there is a magical barrier or something around the chest with the sword, and it can not be opened until a pressure sensor under the rock (or magical spell monitoring the rock) is let loose once the rock is picked up?

newbDM
2009-01-13, 02:48 AM
First of all, even in a super-low-magic game, a +4 weapon isn't exactly going to allow just anyone to defeat everything they encounter. In a setting like that, convincing people you have such a weapon is probably more important than actually having it. A +1 Flaming weapon is far less powerful mechanically but far more impressive aesthetically and therefore could gain a character more influence among NPCs than a more powerful yet bland +4 weapon. Just having the weapon is no guarantee of becoming king by your own hand, yet convincing people you have a similarly powerful means, regardless of whether or not you actually do, will probably bring you more success.

Depending on the size of the rock, I'd use it to parry attacks and claim that as long as I hold it, I cannot be killed. Any foes who believed it would scour the setting for a way of removing the rock, thinking that it would mean the character's defeat, rather than just disregarding the claim and stabbing him. The rock is the true means of becoming king by one's own hand, not the +4 sword.

Very interesting point.

I believe I did something similar, by having an item belonging to the "Big Boss" of an orc mega tribe (practically of every orc on the continent) be a flaming club (not truly stated yet, but I was thinking of just making it flaming). And that club is a very feared item. And now I guess I also made it a status symbol?

I guess I kinda of thought of this on some subconscious level, but now I realize it.

However, considering that only kings/rulers/paladin (big things in my multiverse)/and BBEG would have powerful items, does that at least make a +4 sword (with some of the +s in special abilities) somewhat powerful?




The players can just cast Regenerate and then amputate an arm.

Again, low-magic. I have it so only the biggest of monasteries, in Metropolis level settlements have a single cleric at their head. Adepts start at temples in Large Town sized settlements.

pingcode20
2009-01-13, 03:20 AM
Quick question: What happens if the PCs are wearing gloves? Wouldn't that defeat the entire curse?

---

On one hand, you're giving them a chance to get a cool sword.

On the other hand, you're putting in a cruel trap to try and force them to give up the sword again.

On the gripping hand, if it comes off poorly, it ends up looking like a gigantic jerk move. It's really something that only has the potential make your players angry at you, and less willing to tolerate any other perceived slights.

Keld Denar
2009-01-13, 03:24 AM
You know what would be even more funny? This came to me in a lightning bolt when I started reading your post, and I was almost disappointed when it came to it.

Swap out the gold with a scroll...any scroll, doesn't matter, just that its a scroll. Make it fireball, just for grins and giggles.

Now...you have a sword, scroll, and a rock.

First player picks up the sword and is stuck to it

2nd player picks up the scroll, and is likewise stuck to it.

3rd player picks up the rock, again with the stuck, but then something else happens.

Powerful enchantment magic overcomes all three, the holder of the sword feels compulsed (no save) to attack the wielder of the scroll, while the wielder of the scroll needs to attack the wielder of the rock, and the wielder of the rock tries to attack the wielder of the sword. Rest of party tries to keep them from killing each other. Play continues until one party member drops another, or someone at the table figures out what exactly is going on.

Rock beats sword (sisors)
Sword beats paper (scroll)
Paper beats rock.

lulz for all!

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-13, 03:27 AM
You know what would be even more funny? This came to me in a lightning bolt when I started reading your post, and I was almost disappointed when it came to it.

Swap out the gold with a scroll...any scroll, doesn't matter, just that its a scroll. Make it fireball, just for grins and giggles.

Now...you have a sword, scroll, and a rock.

First player picks up the sword and is stuck to it

2nd player picks up the scroll, and is likewise stuck to it.

3rd player picks up the rock, again with the stuck, but then something else happens.

Powerful enchantment magic overcomes all three, the holder of the sword feels compulsed (no save) to attack the wielder of the scroll, while the wielder of the scroll needs to attack the wielder of the rock, and the wielder of the rock tries to attack the wielder of the sword. Rest of party tries to keep them from killing each other. Play continues until one party member drops another, or someone at the table figures out what exactly is going on.

Rock beats sword (sisors)
Sword beats paper (scroll)
Paper beats rock.

lulz for all!

Nah because if the wrong person picks up the wrong item then this could be very nasty very fast. For maximum fun just have them chase each other around trying to deal non-lethal damage. (or make the sword blunt and deal non-lethal)

Though, as a cruel and shameless joke on the players I love it :smallbiggrin:

ondonaflash
2009-01-13, 03:35 AM
I actually really like this idea for a trap, and see, you are MUCH kinder than I am. I am going to place a sword in a magic circle (Greater Planar Binding, but unless the PCs have a high spellcraft check they won't know that, and since we are ATM traveling w/o mage... :smallwink:) anyways this sword is a TREASURE. It is hovering in the air in front of them, emitting a soft blue glow. Runes trace themselves along the blade and the guard is made of shining mithral. The guard is wrapped with soft ewe's leather and a diamond sets itself in the pommel.

But woe betide the foolish mortal who crosses the boundary of that circle, for it is actually a Pit Fiend, disguising itself as a sword to tempt the greedy and foolish into crossing the line and unleashing it.

Given that i have a level five party it should be pretty good. The difference being that I have a party of experienced D&D players who should no better than to grab an unguarded weapon. One of them is also a paladin and thus can detect evil.

Adventuring Rule #1!: There is no such thing as free treasure!

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-13, 03:42 AM
Adventuring rule #2: When presented with the opportunity for low cost treasure one should grab it and run like hell before the DM notices.

Or in the case of very large and expensive pieces of the flavor text one should at least have a damn good plan to deal with what happens when you tell the DM you are making off with 100,000 gp worth of stuff at level 5...

Ganurath
2009-01-13, 03:59 AM
If I were in their shoes, I'd give up the gauntlet/glove in favor of the sword any day.

Ninetail
2009-01-13, 04:30 AM
Again, low-magic. I have it so only the biggest of monasteries, in Metropolis level settlements have a single cleric at their head. Adepts start at temples in Large Town sized settlements.

And yet you have a magic sword and a magic cursed rock in the same place, and you're proposing to protect the magic sword with a magic barrier that only disappears if the magic rock's magic is activated.

That's a pretty good concentration of magic for a low-magic setting. Not saying it's impossible, mind you, but I'd look askance at it.

Who put all of this there, and why?

Altima
2009-01-13, 04:40 AM
Make the key to the chest with gold to be inside the rock.

And just for fun, you could have the rock have a 'core' of precious metal inside the rock. You could make it enough for say an adamantine dagger (which isn't too terribly powerful, but incredibly useful as a digging implement being able to ignore hardness and all).

You could also curse the sword, too. Such as if they keep it, it'll do something. Minor curses include the sword drooling blood. Or perhaps a major curse such as the sword makes its wielder more and more paranoid about her fellows taking her sword.

KKL
2009-01-13, 04:40 AM
Going to throw my personal opinion here. This "trap" is about on the same level of Pointless DM dickery (TM) as "Your Paladin falls for [insert contrived and ultimately stupid bs here]."

newbDM
2009-01-13, 05:34 AM
I just finished trying to stat the sword if anyone is interested:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5633996#post5633996


Please let me know what you think! I am still very new to making magic items/artifacts.

newbDM
2009-01-13, 09:02 AM
And yet you have a magic sword and a magic cursed rock in the same place, and you're proposing to protect the magic sword with a magic barrier that only disappears if the magic rock's magic is activated.

That's a pretty good concentration of magic for a low-magic setting. Not saying it's impossible, mind you, but I'd look askance at it.

Who put all of this there, and why?

Well, one of my first players/PCs became a noble and got five square miles of land. On it happened to be some human ruins.

Sadly, the game ended before they finished exploring the area, but if they had they would have discovered that some of those ruins were of a religious sect to one the first sets of human deities way back on that world (the Olympian Pantheon).

I am currently mapping out the entire area in Fractal Mapper for future campaigns and/or groups, fast forwarding 11 years in my cosmology. I am even taking sprites taken from video games and such to do a better job. This sword is in a hidden "secret" dungeon they can unlock. Read the link I posted to see who it belonged to to understand it's history.


Anyway, the reason the rock is there, and why magic tended to happen around said old PC (now an NPC in my homebrewed sandbox setting) is that he managed to annoy an overdeity. And not just any over deity, he managed to get the loving attention of Death. Yup, and that allowed me to have some fun during the adventure, since every once-in-a-way either undead, or something unexpected came at the party (or more specifically said PC), partly because of the PC insulting DEATH, and partly because the PC turned into a vampire by STD method so Death wanted to "reclaim" him (hey, he caused all this, not me!)......

So in truth only the sword and the ancient paladn's (the NPC who's sword it was) other treasure (the coinage) should have been there, but I am planning that along with the occasional corpse of a monster/big animal that dies near by his settlement (which is hamlet size due to good roe-playing by the PC) spontaneously raising and going towards his "manor", there will be freaky paranormal stuff going on, and things that just shouldn't make sense happening. Hence why I am mapping it in so much detail, and planting so many easter eggs in the map. Death in my cosmology enjoys his job, which means he gets as much of a kick making the PC/NPC paranoid batty as actually "reclaiming him" (plus the player decided during the game to use his right as a noble to bend/change the kingdom's rules somewhat in his territory to farm HEMP, so I am making it so over the 11 years he is getting ever more paranoid), so he usually makes things a somewhat fair fight. This means that it could be risky spending too much time in that hamlet for players, but the payoffs are potentially bigger.

valadil
2009-01-13, 10:04 AM
Seems reasonable to me. As long as the third chest has remaining loot the players aren't really getting cheated. That and the +4 sword is just going to appear as a magic sword. They won't have identified it yet at the point they'll be losing it.

Irreverent Fool
2009-01-13, 10:25 AM
I must disagree with out colleagues above who complain about such a trap being unfair, pointless, and a tool of a "****" DM.

Your trap does herald back to the old days of arbitrary punishment and perhaps needs some reasoning to be there. "A wizard did it" is always a fine answer in D&D however.

What do I like about your situation? It is INTERESTING and OBVIOUSLY A TRAP. If the PCs do not realize that 3 treasure chests at the bottom of a dungeon, untouched by the creatures inhabiting said dungeon, are a trap, well, they get what's coming to them.

1st edition D&D characters were either incredibly cautious/paranoid or dead. Dead dead dead. Adventurers are supposed to die. A lot. The difference with 3rd edition is that we are forced to put so much work into a character that we dread creating another one.

In 3rd edition, if the shocktrooper/leap-attack/power-attack/greatsword fighter dies, you usually don't create the same build, so you've got to spend hours putting another one together unless you happen to have one on hand.

In 1st ed, if Yorgath the Mighty, slayer of the Seven Fiends of Drae'Gannor and Subduer of the Red Wyrm of the Misty Coast who had his shield hand bitten off by a ravenous were-beast and his left eye gouged out by a swarm of harpies and who has recently managed to make it all the way to 7th level as a Fighting Man happens to fall in a Gygax pit and get his brain sucked out by betentacled wraithfish in 1d4-1 rounds and rolls a 1 on the d4, he can be replaced quickly by another treasure-seeker just by looking on the table for the stats of the appropriate level.

Shoot, I think the spectacular ways bad things happen to adventurers is part of the game. There's a reason people choose to remain commoners. Your trap doesn't even KILL anyone.

I do agree with some of the above posters that the sword needs to be obviously magical, though flaming may not make sense for the interaction you want with the rock. Glowing runes are always good.

obnoxious
sig

chiasaur11
2009-01-13, 01:06 PM
What word? :smalltongue:

But seriously, I can see a group of PCs actually attempting to abuse the cursed rock.

P1: "Devon the Bold starts learning to write with his off-hand... next level I'll take Improved Critical (rock)... not to mention the fact that I can't be disarmed!"

P2: "Dude, that is sweet."

Of course, it varies with players. Players who had done the Tomb of Horrors before would know better than to put their hands all over some rock they found in a dungeon...

EDIT: Or, y'know, the PC could simply have the hand amputated, and then use that as an excuse to get a hook-hand, which brings him one step closer to being a pirate. Arrgh! :smallbiggrin:

Or a chainsaw hand.

Or even a skull crushing mechanical hand.

All sorts of things better than a standard hand.

lilhowie624
2009-01-13, 01:30 PM
in a short few words i would say... no

only because as playing a pc back in the olde days 1ed and 2ed i remember traps such as

the gem of magic jar
the sphere of annilation in the statues mouth
ring of imprisonment
give the skull his limbs and its a demi lich
the 50ft spike pit with the ceiling that falls on you

as some one stated above if your and adventurer you need a degree of paranoia. if you dont expect to die at least everytime you head out than its just a cake walk to 20.

you really wanna be devious hit them where it hurts. and this is one that can hurt.

npc cursed bleeding -1hp per day cumulative(1 2 3 4 ect) until curse lifted
once lifted hp is restored regularly
the curse is spread on contact with any living thing. to include melee attacks and touch spells such as cure light wounds and shocking grasp
you cannot remove your own curse by conventional means
no save curse dc 20

this one plauged my party for about 3 weeks wed cure it and remove it but some one always caugt it again.

there is a way to stop it.

Kesnit
2009-01-13, 01:58 PM
And what happens when the Fighter picks up the rock, leaving someone who may not be proficient in swords to free them? Sure, there could be someone else with proficiency, but there may not be. I'm envisionining the low-STR Wizard either hacking the Fighter's arm off, or shattering the sword on the Fighter's armor and leaving the stone still attached.

Ironlich
2009-01-13, 02:17 PM
Idunno, just throwing the trap in their face like that feels cruel, but if you give them some fair chance to avoid it, go for it.

tyckspoon
2009-01-13, 02:23 PM
And what happens when the Fighter picks up the rock, leaving someone who may not be proficient in swords to free them? Sure, there could be someone else with proficiency, but there may not be. I'm envisionining the low-STR Wizard either hacking the Fighter's arm off, or shattering the sword on the Fighter's armor and leaving the stone still attached.

Now this would just be unfair. It's an object that, presumably, nobody is trying to defend; you can hit it automatically by taking a full-round action to set up the attack.

Kesnit
2009-01-13, 03:04 PM
Now this would just be unfair. It's an object that, presumably, nobody is trying to defend; you can hit it automatically by taking a full-round action to set up the attack.

Do you really think the Fighter isn't trying to defend his/her hand? Depending on the size of the rock, the Fighter's arm might be a larger target.

Are you considering the rock helpless? In that case, it takes a -4 to AC, but still requires an attack roll. If you were thinking of coup de grace, you can't coup de grace things immune to crits.

Now that I tnink about it, there's also hardness. Could the Wizard actually hit hard enough to shatter the stone?

Prometheus
2009-01-13, 03:24 PM
Before Reading OP: No, of course not
After Reading OP: Double No! Go for it!

It would be stupid not for a magic puzzle to work the way it was intended and have a Wizard miss a rock. But there is the questions about what to do with gauntlets (presumably, they also become stuck on?)

...Despicable..
2009-01-13, 03:50 PM
And what happens when the Fighter picks up the rock, leaving someone who may not be proficient in swords to free them?

What if the fighter decides to duel wield the sword in his off-hand, and the rock in his primary?

Keld Denar
2009-01-13, 04:16 PM
Man, I used to have the ol' net book of tricks and traps. There was some of the most brutal sadistic Gygaxian stuff in there.

Imagine a room, large room, and almost completely empty. Only thing of note other than the unopenable locked door going forward is a barrel hanging by a rope in the middle of the room. The rope goes over a pulley and then is tied to a hook on the floor pretty close to under the barrel. Rope is coated with Sovern Glue, or similar substance, just above the knot. If a PC tries to grab it to lower the barrel, his hand is stuck fast to the rope, and the knot slips. Barrel is filled with caltrops, and thus heavier than the PC. Barrel falls, PC flies up in the air, striking the barrel half way for damage. Barrel hits the round and shatters, throwing caltrops all over the room. Now empty barrel has almost no weight, so PC falls, striking empty barrel along the way for more damage. PC hits the ground for MORE DAMAGE, oh, and is encrusted in caltrops. Somewhere amids the caltrops is the key to the door. For extra insult to injury, rats got into the barrel at one point, and all the catrops are infested with fever filth.

Ah, good times...

Tacoma
2009-01-13, 04:21 PM
Man, I used to have the ol' net book of tricks and traps. There was some of the most brutal sadistic Gygaxian stuff in there.

Imagine a room, large room, and almost completely empty. Only thing of note other than the unopenable locked door going forward is a barrel hanging by a rope in the middle of the room. The rope goes over a pulley and then is tied to a hook on the floor pretty close to under the barrel. Rope is coated with Sovern Glue, or similar substance, just above the knot. If a PC tries to grab it to lower the barrel, his hand is stuck fast to the rope, and the knot slips. Barrel is filled with caltrops, and thus heavier than the PC. Barrel falls, PC flies up in the air, striking the barrel half way for damage. Barrel hits the round and shatters, throwing caltrops all over the room. Now empty barrel has almost no weight, so PC falls, striking empty barrel along the way for more damage. PC hits the ground for MORE DAMAGE, oh, and is encrusted in caltrops. Somewhere amids the caltrops is the key to the door. For extra insult to injury, rats got into the barrel at one point, and all the catrops are infested with fever filth.

Ah, good times...


If you see a room like that, the first reaction should be to check the outer hallway for traps very carefully, drill a peephole through the door, and fireball the room through the peephole. If fireballs are not available, at least leave the barrel alone and don't fool with it!

Of course, my fellow players are the type to pick up a single gold coin lying on the floor even though that's probably the scariest and most suspicious trap ever.

kopout
2009-01-13, 04:54 PM
What word? :smalltongue:

But seriously, I can see a group of PCs actually attempting to abuse the cursed rock.

P1: "Devon the Bold starts learning to write with his off-hand... next level I'll take Improved Critical (rock)... not to mention the fact that I can't be disarmed!"

P2: "Dude, that is sweet."


this is almost exactly what went through my mind

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-13, 05:04 PM
One of the more devious traps I enjoyed reading involved blocking a hallway with a bit of thread strung across it, with a note on it, challenging the party's barbarian to break it. After the rogue takes 20 to detect traps on it and finds none, the barbarian breaks through it with no trouble. Another twenty feet down the hall is similar obstruction, this one made of wood and about an inch thick braced between the walls, with a similar challenge. It is likewise tested for traps, and with none detected, the barbarian smashes through it as well. The process repeats, with bigger and harder material each time, the notes getting ruder as they progress, until...

"After all that, you must be tired. I bet ya can't break this one!"

...and it's a staff of power. :smallbiggrin:

MickJay
2009-01-13, 05:05 PM
What about detecting/removing curse? Paranoid players may try to check out and de-curse everything as precaution, would you let them work the trap out and disable it if they played smart?

Rei_Jin
2009-01-13, 06:02 PM
I see a few problems with this scenario...

1. What are you setting out to do? You know your players better than we do, is this something they will enjoy? I know that I would ignore the rock, take the sword, and the gold, and leave. Why would I pick up a rock? What reason is there for them to pick up the rock?

2. If one of them decides they want to do a Hellboy (ie. Indestructible Fist of Stone) then you've just given them the perfect way. Having only one hand that's functional has minimal drawback in D&D, and asides from RP problems, I see no issue with having a rock attached to my fist. And even RP can be resolved by Monty Python-esque jokes. (There was a witch, she turned me into a newt.... errr... stone! I got better... mostly)

3. What is this rock made of that the only thing that can break it is this +4 Sword? You may end up with players wanting to harness the power of this almighty material to make castles, doors, weapons, or anything else they like. Remember, reverse engineering is a viable thing.

4. And even if they have to cut off their hand to get rid of the rock, they can always use that as their shield arm and have their shield strapped on for them by their companions. He then takes the +4 Sword in the other hand, and people run screaming in fear from the almighty one handed warrior.

5. If it's just for lulz and your group enjoys this kind of scenario, then go for it. It wouldn't faze the guys I play with, but that's because we just look at things from a different angle to most.

newbDM
2009-01-13, 08:47 PM
I see a few problems with this scenario...

1. What are you setting out to do? You know your players better than we do, is this something they will enjoy? I know that I would ignore the rock, take the sword, and the gold, and leave. Why would I pick up a rock? What reason is there for them to pick up the rock?

Again, no players at the moment. Simply filling in my homeworld/sphere with things and options for the day I once again get the privilege to DM. I placed in a specific settlement players are likely to take their PCs often, in the kingdom (founded by my first group of players) that I plan to make the starting point for campaigns.


2. If one of them decides they want to do a Hellboy (ie. Indestructible Fist of Stone) then you've just given them the perfect way. Having only one hand that's functional has minimal drawback in D&D, and asides from RP problems, I see no issue with having a rock attached to my fist. And even RP can be resolved by Monty Python-esque jokes. (There was a witch, she turned me into a newt.... errr... stone! I got better... mostly)

Well, if the players think that creatively, they get lucky.


3. What is this rock made of that the only thing that can break it is this +4 Sword? You may end up with players wanting to harness the power of this almighty material to make castles, doors, weapons, or anything else they like. Remember, reverse engineering is a viable thing.

Well, that is kind of explained in the thread I made in homebrew board about this sword (which I linked to in the first page).

I am hoping to get some input to refine and improve it though.

Link again:
The Sword of Merciful Valor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102097)

I made it so the sword has the ability to once, and only once, remove a single curse as a "merciful act", but it required the wielder to sacrifice it's powerful magic sword. Again, magic and something like Remove Curse would be a significant thing to obtain in my multiverse.

Imagine in some other media where the heroes spend the whole movie/book/whatever trying to find an ancient item, just to remove a single disease/cure/etc.




4. And even if they have to cut off their hand to get rid of the rock, they can always use that as their shield arm and have their shield strapped on for them by their companions. He then takes the +4 Sword in the other hand, and people run screaming in fear from the almighty one handed warrior.

Again, I want to try rewarding creativity. :smallsmile:


5. If it's just for lulz and your group enjoys this kind of scenario, then go for it. It wouldn't faze the guys I play with, but that's because we just look at things from a different angle to most.

That will depend on which group I find, but you make a very good point.

newbDM
2009-01-13, 09:02 PM
Your trap does herald back to the old days of arbitrary punishment and perhaps needs some reasoning to be there. "A wizard did it" is always a fine answer in D&D however.

Will "Death did it" do? :smallsmile:



What do I like about your situation? It is INTERESTING and OBVIOUSLY A TRAP. If the PCs do not realize that 3 treasure chests at the bottom of a dungeon, untouched by the creatures inhabiting said dungeon, are a trap, well, they get what's coming to them.

1. Thank you.

2. Hmm, good point. Then again, I was thinking of making it more of a trap dungeon, but still.

I am thinking it would be the tomb of the ancient paladin from ancient human times. (Again, a paladin is a significant thing in how I like to run my world).




1st edition D&D characters were either incredibly cautious/paranoid or dead. Dead dead dead. Adventurers are supposed to die. A lot. The difference with 3rd edition is that we are forced to put so much work into a character that we dread creating another one.

In 3rd edition, if the shocktrooper/leap-attack/power-attack/greatsword fighter dies, you usually don't create the same build, so you've got to spend hours putting another one together unless you happen to have one on hand.

In 1st ed, if Yorgath the Mighty, slayer of the Seven Fiends of Drae'Gannor and Subduer of the Red Wyrm of the Misty Coast who had his shield hand bitten off by a ravenous were-beast and his left eye gouged out by a swarm of harpies and who has recently managed to make it all the way to 7th level as a Fighting Man happens to fall in a Gygax pit and get his brain sucked out by betentacled wraithfish in 1d4-1 rounds and rolls a 1 on the d4, he can be replaced quickly by another treasure-seeker just by looking on the table for the stats of the appropriate level.

Shoot, I think the spectacular ways bad things happen to adventurers is part of the game.

I was not aware of that.

This is why I love speaking with the older generation of gamers. You are always great to learn from, and I like hearing about what I consider the "golden age of gaming" which I feel I missed out on.



There's a reason people choose to remain commoners.

I HIGHLY agree with this one line.

This fits my thoughts on the place/role/whatever of adventurers very well, and how I like to view/run my multiverse. I do not want to run (or even play in) a "cake walk to level 20". If it was too easy, unintense, and I just do not like how so many games seem to be nerfed down to "everything is happy and rainbows land". And I am amazed in how often WotC said that should be the way in their books in rules (like "when a player enters a settlement, he should be allowed to point to an item and say 'I want that'", and "players should automatically find a buyer for their items within an hour of being in a settlement without question".).




I do agree with some of the above posters that the sword needs to be obviously magical, though flaming may not make sense for the interaction you want with the rock. Glowing runes are always good.

obnoxious
sig

Did that. And thanks to you both!

How I did it is in the sword's thread, if you can please give me your opinion in how I went about it.

newbDM
2009-01-13, 09:14 PM
Seems reasonable to me. As long as the third chest has remaining loot the players aren't really getting cheated. That and the +4 sword is just going to appear as a magic sword. They won't have identified it yet at the point they'll be losing it.

True. They might not even try to figure out the weapon's abilities before deciding to break the rock.

I guess I might have wasted my time stating out that sword. :smallfrown:


And yeah, I want to be a bit nice with the third chest. After going through my dungeons they will at least get something, and in a low-wealth game I am planning for it to mean more.



Or a chainsaw hand.

Or even a skull crushing mechanical hand.

All sorts of things better than a standard hand.

God I love your posts chiasaur. However, I would fear you as a DM...



...
.....as playing a pc back in the olde days 1ed and 2ed i remember traps such as

the gem of magic jar
the sphere of annilation in the statues mouth
ring of imprisonment
give the skull his limbs and its a demi lich
the 50ft spike pit with the ceiling that falls on you

All seem pretty neat. Where can I read up on them?


as some one stated above if your and adventurer you need a degree of paranoia. if you dont expect to die at least everytime you head out than its just a cake walk to 20.

Thank you as well. I feel this a very important lesson for me as a DM.



you really wanna be devious hit them where it hurts. and this is one that can hurt.

npc cursed bleeding -1hp per day cumulative(1 2 3 4 ect) until curse lifted
once lifted hp is restored regularly
the curse is spread on contact with any living thing. to include melee attacks and touch spells such as cure light wounds and shocking grasp
you cannot remove your own curse by conventional means
no save curse dc 20

this one plauged my party for about 3 weeks wed cure it and remove it but some one always caugt it again.

there is a way to stop it.

LoL.

Although I would no be able to use this one, due to no remove curse.

newbDM
2009-01-13, 09:29 PM
What about detecting/removing curse? Paranoid players may try to check out and de-curse everything as precaution, would you let them work the trap out and disable it if they played smart?

There will not usually be more than an adapt in a group, so I am not too worried.

But if they think up other ways of out-thinking me, such as actually using the rock to their benefit, or become a mechanical hand then I would be proud as a DM.



If you see a room like that, the first reaction should be to check the outer hallway for traps very carefully, drill a peephole through the door, and fireball the room through the peephole. If fireballs are not available, at least leave the barrel alone and don't fool with it!

So this is the healthy paranoia mentioned before?


Of course, my fellow players are the type to pick up a single gold coin lying on the floor even though that's probably the scariest and most suspicious trap ever.

Is it wrong of me as a DM to be banking on my players' greed? Anyway I can help encourage it? :smallbiggrin:




Man, I used to have the ol' net book of tricks and traps. There was some of the most brutal sadistic Gygaxian stuff in there.

Imagine a room, large room, and almost completely empty. Only thing of note other than the unopenable locked door going forward is a barrel hanging by a rope in the middle of the room. The rope goes over a pulley and then is tied to a hook on the floor pretty close to under the barrel. Rope is coated with Sovern Glue, or similar substance, just above the knot. If a PC tries to grab it to lower the barrel, his hand is stuck fast to the rope, and the knot slips. Barrel is filled with caltrops, and thus heavier than the PC. Barrel falls, PC flies up in the air, striking the barrel half way for damage. Barrel hits the round and shatters, throwing caltrops all over the room. Now empty barrel has almost no weight, so PC falls, striking empty barrel along the way for more damage. PC hits the ground for MORE DAMAGE, oh, and is encrusted in caltrops. Somewhere amids the caltrops is the key to the door. For extra insult to injury, rats got into the barrel at one point, and all the catrops are infested with fever filth.

Ah, good times...

Anyone know the name of this book!




Before Reading OP: No, of course not
After Reading OP: Double No! Go for it!

It would be stupid not for a magic puzzle to work the way it was intended and have a Wizard miss a rock. But there is the questions about what to do with gauntlets (presumably, they also become stuck on?)

I think any gloves or gauntlets will also get stuck.





Now that I tnink about it, there's also hardness. Could the Wizard actually hit hard enough to shatter the stone?

Nah, this should not be a problem. Anything else the swords hits will not shatter it. It would just function as a normal sword.

And I am not mean enough to say they did not hit it hard enough, causing them to both lose the sword and still be stuck to the rock. I am not that evil of a DM...yet.




Now this would just be unfair. It's an object that, presumably, nobody is trying to defend; you can hit it automatically by taking a full-round action to set up the attack.

Hmm, not so sure about this.

Perhaps a Con of Dex check to see how still the cursed PC manages to stay as the other PC swings at him with only a margin of error of a few inches?

I am basing this on my fear of needles, and how I need to concentrate to keep steady when getting a shot. :smalleek:

Randel
2009-01-13, 10:07 PM
I think it sounds like a perfectly good trap, nobody dies and at the worst they break even and get some gold. At best, they get to abuse the heck out of stuff.

A few random thoughts to add to the creative fire:

1. When I read the part about whoever touches the stone gets stuck to it and if another person touches it as well they get stuck too, I recalled an old fairytale or something with a magic duck of some kind. A boy had a duck (it was probably golden) and someone touched it out of greed and their hand was stuck to it so they had to follow him (he didn't seem to notice.) then someone saw the person following him and they touched the first person and got stuck to THEM. So the curse causes people to get stuck to anyone in the chain. End result was an ever-growing line of stuck people until something finally broke the curse.

Anyway, once I though of that then it was only a second or two before the Katamari Damacy theme tune started playing in my head... using a magical cursed sticky rock to create a giant ball of trapped adventurers and monsters rolling across the countryside.

2. As for having the stone have a precious material inside it... the Philosophers Stone artifact is supposed to be a stone with a powerful alchemic compound inside it that can turn lead to gold and iron to silver. Maybe this Philosophers Stone is kind of defective, the hardened surface that protects the inner core accidentaly transmutes human sweat into super-glue. They can break it open and have the reactive inner core come out.

Crazier idea, the ooze inside turns lead to gold, iron to silver, and various worthless rocks to gems, so even if theparty spills it on the ground then they get gems. The super-reactive nature of the stuff will disenchant the sword but turn it into silver (i.e. it stops being a +4 sword and then turns into some kind of super werewolf killing sword thats a steel alloy with the iron turned to super-strong silver). "As you strike the stone with the enchanted sword, the tough outer shell shatters into sand! However you smell an acrid smell of ozone as a glistening transparent compound splashes out of the stone. Where it touches the sword, the enchanted steel seems to hiss and glow before turning an untarnishable silver. Where it hits the stone tiles there is a sizzle and the sound of stones cracking... rocks on the floor turn to rubies, the tiles transform as well but shatter into dozens of small uncut gems! Bits of cloth and armor hit by the liquid are transmuted into silver metal and fine elven silk! The fighter gets a little splashed on his hands, after a moment of pain he notices the upper surface of the skin appears to be dragonhide! It should shed off in a day or so, but in the mean time he might be able to pick up hot objects without getting burned. All the gems, metal, silk, and hide amount to 20,000 gp... and the sword is now a +3 silvered sword."

Or something like that. Note that the transmuting compount is highly reactive and trying to put it into glass containers would make them shatter into diamond dust or something. Other containers meet the same fate and magic gets absorbed. That stuff it was kept in was the only stuff that could contain it (and it was shattered to dust by the sword) and its so tough that only the sword could break it. Whoever put them there did so because they didn't quite want to break the thing open just yet.

Though I suppose you could tweak the above description to say that upon hitting living flesh, the compound heals it up, maybe doing something extra like healing all scars or de-aging the person or whatever. And no mater the material transmuted it all adds up to a predetermined gp amount.

3. The stone has a slot in it which can hold the sword. In order to make the stone non-sticky they have to insert the sword into the stone. This doesn't destroy either of them... its just that now the sword is stuck in the stone! The party may either keep the combined sword and stone, using it like a hammer or something, or they may wait for a worthy person to try to remove the sword from the stone (and then be crowned king of England!).

4. The three chests are quantum-linked. No matter which chest the players open, the first they open holds the stone, thesecond holds the sword, and the third holds the coins.

5. Due to a bizarre quirk in construction, the sword only has its power when within 100 feet of the stone, and the stone is always sticky. They can destroy the stone with the sword but it depowers the sword. If they reassemble the stone then the sword powers up again.

6. The stone only sticks to living things, or alternatively only to conscious things.

Thane of Fife
2009-01-13, 10:38 PM
My general rule of thumb is that, if you have to ask whether something is too cruel, then you should definitely do it.

Erinyes who take men straight into the Nine Hells,
Wights that drain levels and Liches with Maze spells,
Xaren which eat all the magical rings,
these are a few of my favorite things.

A werefox's charms will not let PCs harm her,
Nothing is better than cursed magic armor,
Spears of Backbiting you don't want to fling,
and yet they are some of my favorite things.

Catoblepus gazes come with no-save death rays,
High level mages whom the party betrays,
Lamias who grab you and sirens who sing,
these are some more of my favorite things.

When the gold's won,
when the game's done,
when I'm feeling sad,
I simply remember these wonderful things,
And then I don't feel... so... bad!


But seriously, the best traps are those that keep on giving.... Or, rather, that prevent any giving for extended periods of time.

I have fond memories of giving a character a Trident -2 which identified as a Trident +5. Not only did I get to chuckle at his lugging it around all the time, I also got to be amused by his howls of anguish when it was eaten by a... gray ooze, maybe? Something like that. Good times, goooood times.


Anyone know the name of this book!

Probably not the one he's talking about, but there's a handful of old trap handbooks here:

Some AD&D Netbooks (http://www.acc.umu.se/~stradh/dnd/mirror/Ezra/books/olear/ADnD/NetBooks.html)

Llama231
2009-01-13, 10:39 PM
This sounds great, but with a sword that awsome, you should try to let them use the ideas here.
Give them a "choice", and then let them find a loophole, and get both!:smallbiggrin:
This could be potentially very satifying.

Vexxation
2009-01-13, 11:10 PM
If you see a room like that, the first reaction should be to check the outer hallway for traps very carefully, drill a peephole through the door, and fireball the room through the peephole. If fireballs are not available, at least leave the barrel alone and don't fool with it!

Of course, my fellow players are the type to pick up a single gold coin lying on the floor even though that's probably the scariest and most suspicious trap ever.

Well, as soon as the fireball hits the barrel, it's reveal that you see an explosion and succeed a spot check to watch the wooden key immolate...

Bassetking
2009-01-13, 11:32 PM
So this is the healthy paranoia mentioned before?

No. He touched the door. Which could be a Mimic. Which could trigger a pressure plate dropping a twenty ton plate onto the twenty spaces behind the door.

If he really wanted to be sure, he'd use Augury three times to determine a percentage range of possibilities for the results of interacting with the door. He would then use a thirteen foot pole (Not ten, not fifteen) to prod the door. Barring any issues, he would use universal solvent to dissolve the door from its frame, and test for pressure traps. At that point, he would use ladders, timber, and pitons to construct a free-standing structure that allows him to enter the room without touching any surfaces. Before entering the room, use a steel mirror to check floor, ceiling, and walls for cloakers, droppers, puddings, or fungi. The thirteen foot pole would be employed to test the rope. Upon discovering it contained the glue, the pole would be anchored to timbers, and rendered immobile, so it could not employ the trap. Ladders would be used to reach the barrel, maths would be used to mass out an exact exchange to remove the barrel so the pressure mechanism would not be triggered. The barrel would then be brought down, placed in the hallway three back from where the party most recently was. The 13' pole would then be used to pry free the lid of the barrel, and then a series of steel mirrors would be used to investigate the contents.

IF it's a sword, shield, spear, cash, gem, carpet, scroll, or anything worthwhile, chuck it in a bag and forget about using it any time soon. You won't be touching it until you can get it back to town and can pay for two seperate identify spells.

...Then the walls explode, and cover you in acid.

This is why 1st and 2nd ed. players run dungeons paranoid.

This is also why they are broken joyless husks.

newbDM
2009-01-14, 12:23 AM
My general rule of thumb is that, if you have to ask whether something is too cruel, then you should definitely do it.

Erinyes who take men straight into the Nine Hells,
Wights that drain levels and Liches with Maze spells,
Xaren which each all the magical rings,
these are a few of my favorite things.

A werefox's charms will not let PCs harm her,
Nothing is better than cursed magic armor,
Spears of Backbiting you don't want to fling,
and yet they are some of my favorite things.

Catoblepus gazes come with no-save death rays,
High level mages whom the party betrays,
Lamias who grab you and sirens who sing,
these are some more of my favorite things.

When the gold's won,
when the game's done,
when I'm feeling sad,
I simply remember these wonderful things,
And then I don't feel... so... bad!]

I love you dude...


And I can honestly say that I wish I could play under you. You seem like an awesome DM.




Probably not the one he's talking about, but there's a handful of old trap handbooks here:

Some AD&D Netbooks (http://www.acc.umu.se/~stradh/dnd/mirror/Ezra/books/olear/ADnD/NetBooks.html)

Thank you for the link!

Aether
2009-01-14, 12:33 AM
What is the stone made of? I ask because I want to know if it's possible to just destroy the stone without using the supersword.

Y'know, chip away at it with a hammer and/or chisel.

Or, if the stone is not indestructible... then the sword can simply mundanely break it. Why go to the extra effort of removing a curse when you can do the same by attacking it? Less effort, same result...


I have some questions, though.

Firstly, is it possible to just open the gold and sword chests and remove those and ignore the stone? Or is it necessary to pick up the stone? Secondly, can't the stone simply be moved by somebody picking it up with 2 sticks or a cup/bag and a stick? Or the chest be overturned so the stone falls out?

Next. Perhaps the wielder of the sword has to make a conscious effort to remove a curse. Otherwise, somebody could just touch the sword with something that is cursed, and the sword would break.


Also... it is ambigous as to whether or not you have to be good to use the sword to break a curse. In fact, your description omits any alignment requirements for the "cursebreaker" part of it... Which means the BBEG can take the sword and use it to free a curse, and both be un-cursed and rid the Good Guys of a powerful weapon.

What qualifies as "curse"? Any mind-compelling effect? Geasses? Lycanthropy?


What are the consequences of using it to break a curse? Maybe there should be some, depending on the circumstances in which the blade was broken... Maybe some kind of reward if it was used in a fitting way or something...

...Because I'm sure that, even if the players gain something by getting the gold, somebody will hold them responsible for breaking an artifact...


Hmm.. Maybe the sword can not only break a curse, but also grant that person immunity to getting that curse again... I dunno.

newbDM
2009-01-14, 12:34 AM
No. He touched the door. Which could be a Mimic. Which could trigger a pressure plate dropping a twenty ton plate onto the twenty spaces behind the door.

If he really wanted to be sure, he'd use Augury three times to determine a percentage range of possibilities for the results of interacting with the door. He would then use a thirteen foot pole (Not ten, not fifteen) to prod the door. Barring any issues, he would use universal solvent to dissolve the door from its frame, and test for pressure traps. At that point, he would use ladders, timber, and pitons to construct a free-standing structure that allows him to enter the room without touching any surfaces. Before entering the room, use a steel mirror to check floor, ceiling, and walls for cloakers, droppers, puddings, or fungi. The thirteen foot pole would be employed to test the rope. Upon discovering it contained the glue, the pole would be anchored to timbers, and rendered immobile, so it could not employ the trap. Ladders would be used to reach the barrel, maths would be used to mass out an exact exchange to remove the barrel so the pressure mechanism would not be triggered. The barrel would then be brought down, placed in the hallway three back from where the party most recently was. The 13' pole would then be used to pry free the lid of the barrel, and then a series of steel mirrors would be used to investigate the contents.

IF it's a sword, shield, spear, cash, gem, carpet, scroll, or anything worthwhile, chuck it in a bag and forget about using it any time soon. You won't be touching it until you can get it back to town and can pay for two seperate identify spells.

...Then the walls explode, and cover you in acid.

This is why 1st and 2nd ed. players run dungeons paranoid.

This is also why they are broken joyless husks.


http://forums.gleemax.com/images/smilies/dubious.gif

I honestly do not know what to say here.

You poor, poor thing. What have past DMs done to you?


And what is it about 0D&D-2ed and Gygax himself that made it like this? Based on what has been said in this thread, me debating this little non-lethal trick would have been laughed at back then.

tyckspoon
2009-01-14, 01:13 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/images/smilies/dubious.gif

I honestly do not know what to say here.

You poor, poor thing. What have past DMs done to you?


And what is it about 0D&D-2ed and Gygax himself that made it like this? Based on what has been said in this thread, me debating this little non-lethal trick would have been laughed at back then.

A little of it was the overall spirit of the game at the time, I think- Gygax was pretty authoritarian about it, and some of that carried through the official materials, so (as I understand it, anyway) it was more generally accepted for DMs to sometimes treat the players as their own toys or just run a more adversarial style game in general where the DM and the players were in direct competition. But most of it is just memetic mutation- the most excessively lethal stuff was usually part of a tournament adventure, where the whole point was to win by being the group that could make it furthest into the gauntlet. Those tournament adventures also happened to be among the most memorable pieces of early D&D, so they wound up being what everybody 'knows' 1/2nd edition was all about.

JonestheSpy
2009-01-14, 02:12 AM
Sounds like fun to me.

Agrippa
2009-01-14, 02:57 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/images/smilies/dubious.gif

I honestly do not know what to say here.

You poor, poor thing. What have past DMs done to you?


And what is it about 0D&D-2ed and Gygax himself that made it like this? Based on what has been said in this thread, me debating this little non-lethal trick would have been laughed at back then.

I don't think Gygax was all that bad from what I've heard. For example, if the PC's are in a dungeon and they've survived multiple death traps, curses and fights with placed monsters Gary Gygax would have never weakened any wondering monsters used or had them pull their punches against the PCs. That would be cheap. Instead he'd ignore the wondering monster tables entirely.

Also, The Tomb of Horrors was meant as more of a one shot adventure and not intended for use in any actual campaign. Anyway, it was a tournament module, it was supposed to be that unfair of a death trap.

woodenbandman
2009-01-14, 09:50 AM
Do you really think the Fighter isn't trying to defend his/her hand? Depending on the size of the rock, the Fighter's arm might be a larger target.

Are you considering the rock helpless? In that case, it takes a -4 to AC, but still requires an attack roll. If you were thinking of coup de grace, you can't coup de grace things immune to crits.


Can too, it just doesn't deal a critical hit.