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Alleine
2009-01-13, 03:42 AM
I've been thinking of new characters to create, since I absolutely love building them. However my thoughts were producing no new gems of strangeness as it is wont to do. Then I read a post someone had about doing a fair deal of damage while mounted and realized I had my newest inspiration! I want to make a mounted character, small-sized or less because we have a tendency to go into dungeons quite often, but I find myself at a lack of knowledge as to how mounted combat works, and whether it is effective or not.

Unfortunately I don't hear much of people using it unless it's in conjunction with ubercharging and ridiculous lance bonuses. So I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with the mounted combat rules and knows if it is a valid and useful tactic?

To be clear: I'm not looking for specific builds or horrid game breaking destruction or overpowerdness. I am quite capable of bringing that to the table myself, but I have no idea how mounted combat works, what you need, what does not work, etc. I would like some guidance since I am completely out of my league.

Heliomance
2009-01-13, 03:58 AM
Being a charger with a lance and Spirited Charge is pretty much the way to go with mounted combat. If you're doing anything else, I'm not really sure why you're bothering with a mount.

Keld Denar
2009-01-13, 04:33 AM
You might want to sit down with your DM and figure out how he/she wants to arbitrate Ride By Attack. As it stands, its actually broken. Since it requires a charge, you have to move to the closest square you can attack the target. Then you get to keep moving in a straight line past the target...except that the target is in the way. So you either ride through the target with a trample move, or stop moving, which defeats the purpose of the ride by.

My suggestion is that Ride By Attack relieve you of the requirement to charge to the nearest square as well. That means you can charge "past" someone, stabbing them as you go. This makes more sense in a joust kind of way, and isn't horribly game breaking. You still have to move in a straight line toward your opponent, so you couldn't take a round-a-bout path or anything.

Regardless, talk to your DM and figure out how he/she wants to arbitrate it. It will either make or break your desire to use RBA, which is one of the 2 main feats you use all the time as a mounted charger, the other being Spirited Charge.

Hawriel
2009-01-13, 08:04 AM
The PRC Outrider is a class for halfing mounted warriors. Using bows on horse back is rather effective.

Alleine
2009-01-13, 06:46 PM
@Heliomance: The other option is focusing less on charging and more on the fact that both the mount and myself can attack, and using the mount and its abilities to my advantage. I'm seeing more and more that no one else seems to do that though, so I'm assuming that it's less effective than charging.

@ Keld Denar: Thanks for telling me that, I'm sure my DM will listen to reason and help me work out a suitable fix for the feat that doesn't ruin my concept.

@ Hawriel: Thank you for bringing that PrC to my attention, I will most likely use it. Although I don't think my focus will be on bows.

Heliomance
2009-01-13, 06:50 PM
Hmm, didn't think of that option.

I forget, is it possible to use a Fleshraker as a mount? That could get rather nasty.

Eldariel
2009-01-13, 07:06 PM
The most interesting thing about mounted combat are builds that focus on creating an awesome mount. There's a feat called "Devoted Tracker" in Complete Adventurer that combines your Animal Companion and Mount into one creature. While it's designed for Paladin/Rangers, this effect is there for any character that has both, animal companion and mount. Since Druid's animal companion is so much better than Ranger's (twice, actually) and Beastmaster (prestige class in Complete Adventurer) gets an improved Druid Animal Companion, it's generally a good idea to pick a level of Beastmaster with the Track-feat (to qualify for Devoted Tracker), picking Devoted Tracker on 6 and then heading into Prestige Classes.

Since you want to be small, things work out great for you; there's a Halfling-specific prestige class called "Halfling Outrider" in Complete Warrior, which is just that; a mounted Halfling combatant. The added bonus is that it advances both, your mount and your animal companion are both advanced, so you'll get a real kickass mount/animal companion combination. This kind of build works best with the Prestigious versions of Paladin and Ranger in the Unearthed Arcana (as they get you Mount and Animal Companion with less levels), along with Fey Bard which also gets Animal Companion and other qualifications.


The build could be something like Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/Whatever 4 (Wild Plains Outrider, for example). Alternatively, you could use any of the Paladin-variants if you want different alignments (Paladin of Freedom/Paladin of Tyranny/Paladin of whatever). You may want small Fighter/Martial Rogue/whatever dips to get some bonus feats (as you want to be decent yourself too, and Mounted Combat requires a bunch of feats and you need some to make yourself more powerful too). Anyways, the point is to get a really strong mount. Then you could...take the "Dragon Mount" alternative class feature from Draconomicon and get a Dragon Mount eventually, with tons of Hit Dice to kick ass with (for the first 5 levels, you'd have to use purchased mounts, though). Since you're small, it works out.

Strongheart Halfling (Player's Guide to Faerun) would be a great race since it gets a bonus feat and this is horribly feat intensive (Strongheart Halfling is like normal Halfling, except it trades the Luck-bonus to saves for a feat). And it's a Halfling so it qualifies for Halfling Outrider and is small. You should definitely trade your Paladin casting (Holy Warrior in Complete Champion) for more feats, since as said, you really need feats. The character would do really well with focus on Str, Dex (or just Str if focusing on melee instead; Halfling Outrider is normally planned for Mounted Archery, but you could also pick up a Lance and do fine damage as long as you don't mind the -2 Str; Spirited Charge multipliers and your Mount's abilities should make up for that), Con and Cha.


As for the question whether Mounted Combat is worth it, the short answer is "Depends" and the long answer is "Can you Charge?" Mounted Charges with Lance and Spirited Charge deal triple damage compared to a normal attack, making for really potent hits, and your Mount gets you to safety, but unless you go that extra mile to get a flying Mount, this isn't going to be doable by midlevels when most opponents fly.

Also, there're many terrains where you can't Charge (intelligent mount helps a lot here as it can learn feats and skill tricks that help with charging in unusual directions) and then you're just a melee character whose legs can be killed. Another good reason to really focus on getting a good Mount is that a class feature Mount keeps on improving and thus is very durable (purchased Mounts become rather weak on higher levels; there're no rules for buying anything but basic version of a creature so getting "improved mounts" is unlike to happen).

With Mounted Combat, you generally have to invest lots of feats to make for a good mounted combatant, so you really need to ensure you can use a mount constantly, because else all those feats will be wasted. So this is something to keep in mind and another reason to get a tough mount; you don't want to lose it (although Mounted Combat-rules do give it some protection; Mounted Combat-feat itself allows you to roll Ride for its AC once per round and they get abilities to share your saving throws and all that).

Caeldrim
2009-01-13, 07:17 PM
I took a dire weasel mount for my wizard, just for flavour (at first) but have realised over and over again how incredibly useful it is to have a move action free, while getting your mount to do the actual moving for you. Draw a potion, draw a scroll, draw a sandwich, draw a picture of a pony biting off your enemy's weiner.

All things YOU can do while your mount takes care of actually getting you somewhere useful.

Also check out the silverwood outrider and silverwood arcanist PrCs from the WotC website, and the 'wild cohort' feat. All Doubleplus good.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118x

Alleine
2009-01-13, 07:36 PM
Hmm, didn't think of that option.

I forget, is it possible to use a Fleshraker as a mount? That could get rather nasty.

I was thinking pretty much along those lines, actually. The fleshraker is such an effective beast.


@ Eldariel: I've been looking at a few supermount threads on the wizard's forum. They are definitely along the lines of what I'm going for. Unfortunately I really want to avoid Paladin as much as I possibly can. The restrictions are more than I'm willing to bear, especially when the chances of falling and losing everything are very high. If I am forced to take paladin though, thank you for pointing out all of those options that are open to me.

@ Caeldrim: Unfortunately the wild cohort is quite a bit weaker than I'd like. I looked at it once for another build I was thinking of that never saw completion, but it doesn't get the same bonuses as animal companions and you are behind in terms of which animals you can select.

Keld Denar
2009-01-13, 07:54 PM
Another interesting "mount" character is the Arcane Heirophant. A blend of Wizard and Druid, its not very martially inclined on its own, but with the right pet, you can become a force to be reckoned with. AH combines your familiar and animal companion into one potent beatstick. Being small, you could ride on something like a Giant Ape, or Dire Ape, which, with its opposable thumbs could be trained to wield a Greatclub or such. Buff it up with a little wizard magic, and a little druid magic, and watch MONKEY SMASH, while you ride on its back in something that looks like a child shoulder chair. Cast and share spells like Produce Flame with your friend, and you can chuck fire at foes while your pet strikes with flaming blows. You won't be as strong as a straight class caster, but there are TONS of low level spells that are really good. Greater Mighty Wallop on your pets blunt strikes increases damage a ton. Spells like Wall of Thorns (druid) and Ray of Enfeeblement (wizard) combo to debuff a lot. A little creativity allows you to kick a ton of ass together.

Again, not terribly martially focused for the rider, but no less effective, IMO.

Lycanthromancer
2009-01-13, 07:55 PM
A psychic warrior with a psicrystal makes a great mounted combatant. Prior to level 10, buy a decent mount capable of general combat stuff (such as a riding dog or warbeast riding lizard (Forgotten Realms critter with the warbeast template).

Once you hit level 10, research metamorphosis and craft a skin of proteus. Give it to your psicrystal. Imagine what fun you can have when your mount can change form at will, and that you can buff whenever you buff yourself. Since you now have metamorphosis you can also turn yourself into some awesome stuff as well.

In addition, you'll have lots of feats to spend and plenty of psionic powers at your disposal, for when mounted charges just won't cut it. (This will be a lot less often than it is for a lot of other builds - you have access to a mount with climb speed, flight, and the hustle power, after all.)

Seriously. A small-sized psychic warrior would be an incredible mounted character. Just look at strength of my enemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm) and psionic lion's charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm). Learn to dual-wield lances and you're all set.

Just make sure you conserve your power points somewhat.

Heliomance
2009-01-13, 08:03 PM
The way I see it, if the Paladin's code is too restrictive for you, you have two options.
1) Drop a level into Greyguard as soon as possible, to get a slightly looser code of conduct. Basically, if your intentions were good, you're fine.

2) Take Paladin of Freedom instead. That way you only have to be Good, as no-one really knows what Chaotic actually means.

Eldariel
2009-01-13, 08:10 PM
Well, if you have access to Champions of Valor, you could take few substitution levels to flavour yourself less of a divine champion and more of a knight who's been bestown a companion...well, it could just be your animal companion, since they're going to be the same creature anyways.

"Noble Heart"-substitution gives up Divine Health for Track (and bonuses vs. followers of Loviatar, who cares - the Track is of course also awesome to get prerequisites). "Harmonious Knight" gets Inspire Courage over Detect Evil. "Wary Swordknight" (Halfling-only) replaces Aura of Courage with ability to be considered one size larger for combat maneuvers and Turn Undead with Uncanny Dodge, decent trade if there're no divine feats of interest anyways. Those would already reflavour you greatly away from the "Paladin"-direction, which should cut you some slack in the Code of Conduct. Paladin of Freedom and it's already much more lax (without all the convoluted Lawful nonsense).


But yea, if I were to make a mounted combatant, I'd go with a charging supermounter (with some archery skills, of course, but not enough to actually ever do anything). I wouldn't go all the way with übermount since those builds require all your feats and get into convoluted mess as you need a bunch of feats to stack the classes onto each other leading to you having three different spellcasting lists and an assortment of other random crap, and your mount. Of course, supermounted charge costs a lot of feats too, but it should be doable with enough ACFs to meet prerequisites. Without Paladin, it gets horribly difficult as you need to somehow acquire the Mount-progression to get anything decent out of it (or play a Druid, but that probably doesn't end with you mounted...); for some stupid reason, the class that most should have Mount, Knight, never got one (even though they even get Mounted Combat as a bonus).

I cannot seem to find the rules regarding what creatures can be used as mounts, but I recall anything goes as long as it's trained for mounted combat (those rules are under Handle Animal in PHB). However, since Fleshrakers are bipedal IIRC, which could generate a slew of problems. Also, Fleshrakers aren't available as special mounts, which costs you a bunch of opportunities; being able to pick Twisted Charge, Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws, Martial Study: Bounding Attack, Power Attack + Leap Attack, etc. for your mount is all kinds of awesome (and Devoted Tracker gets you lots of HD).

Alleine
2009-01-13, 08:11 PM
Yeesh, I didn't know there were so many options open for mounted combat. I think my focus will be on melee, I've had enough of casters for the time being.

The psionic path is sorely tempting. It certainly fits the absurdity of all my previous characters. I really must think on what it is exactly I'm going for.

Lycanthromancer
2009-01-13, 08:19 PM
Yeesh, I didn't know there were so many options open for mounted combat. I think my focus will be on melee, I've had enough of casters for the time being.

The psionic path is sorely tempting. It certainly fits the absurdity of all my previous characters. I really must think on what it is exactly I'm going for.

I can give advice on building and playing, if you decide to go psi.

Alleine
2009-01-13, 08:28 PM
I can give advice on building and playing, if you decide to go psi.

I am well aware of your expertise on all matters psionic. I look over the psionics board on the wizards forums often.
I'll definitely ask for your help if that is what I decide.

EDIT: @ Eldariel, the Fleshraker has rules for use as an animal companion in its entry.

Heliomance
2009-01-13, 08:55 PM
I cannot seem to find the rules regarding what creatures can be used as mounts, but I recall anything goes as long as it's trained for mounted combat (those rules are under Handle Animal in PHB). However, since Fleshrakers are bipedal IIRC, which could generate a slew of problems. Also, Fleshrakers aren't available as special mounts, which costs you a bunch of opportunities; being able to pick Twisted Charge, Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws, Martial Study: Bounding Attack, Power Attack + Leap Attack, etc. for your mount is all kinds of awesome (and Devoted Tracker gets you lots of HD).

I've looked over the fleshraker entry a couple of times looking for just that info - it doesn't say whether th thing's bipedal or quadrupedal, but the picture seems to show it on all fours. I guess it comes down to a DM decision.

The problem of it not being available as your special mount seems best solved by taking the classes that grant animal companion before the class that grants special mount. That way, you pick up a fleshraker animal companion, then devoted tracker lets you treat it as your special mount.

Draz74
2009-01-13, 08:59 PM
Melee is good (and pretty much requires Spirited Charge, though the lance part is just icing on the cake), but mounted archery is another good option. Very feat-intensive, but some combination of Ranger and a Fighter dip can handle it. Moving twice your mount's speed and still getting to make a full attack is a ridiculous amount of mobility.

Eldariel
2009-01-13, 09:01 PM
EDIT: @ Eldariel, the Fleshraker has rules for use as an animal companion in its entry.

Yes, but Devoted Tracker makes your Mount your Animal Companion; of course, if your DM is willing to turn that around, it's no problem. The letter is why I'm personally partial to Dragons (besides of course the simple fact that riding Dragons is awesome). They have a nice routine, BAB, skills, feat selection and the ever-sweet breath weapon (the smaller ones lack casting, of course).

Triaxx
2009-01-13, 10:18 PM
I'll point this out just because I can: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34357 (Cavalier Base Class)

Paladin flavor, without the pointless restrictions.

I've always arbitrated charge as being able to charge to any square where you can hit the targetted creature. So hitting as you ride one square to the side is more than fair.

Murphy80
2009-01-13, 10:22 PM
Then there is the elemental companion alternate class ability from the complete mage. Nothing says speed like an air elemental companion/mount. Works best with a small character.