Firefly

[kpenguin]

Hey, Playground. Yeah, you.

**** you.

You people and your constant Firefly references and your recommendations and so forth. I caved in to your nerd peer pressure and decided to watch it on Hulu.

Now I'm very sad because of a show that was cancelled over six years ago. I blame my anguish on you, Playgrounders.


...


In all seriousness, I really enjoyed watching the show. I didn't think I would, given all the hype and such, but it really is as good as people say. I hope to find a copy of Serenity somewhere, though the character deaths within have been spoiled to me by internet osmosis.

I thank you, Playground, for unknowingly convincing me to watch it. It was worth it.

[kamikasei]

Shiny.....

[toasty]

ahh... the same thing happened to me and my friend. I now have Firefly on DVD and am about 1/2 through the series. I need to get serenity.

Damn Fox for canceling the show!

[Tirian]

Welcome to the hive mind.

Yes, Serenity remains mandatory even if you know some of what will happen. I mean, hell, the Fruity Oaty Bar commercial alone is worth the price of the DVD.

[Mercenary Pen]

It's not so much a matter of what happens, but how it happens. Just re-watched Serenity last night, so it's fairly fresh in my mind.

Has anyone noticed that the really ground-breaking SF shows always seem to be plagued with threats of cancellation on the way through?

I mean, Firefly- cancelled halfway through the first season, (Massive Hit)
Babylon 5- had constant fears of cancellation through season 4-5 (and probably earlier as well), (again, massive hit, changed the shape of modern televisual SF)

And there's a good few other cases as well.

My opinion, TV network executives don't understand SF at all.

[Selrahc]

I mean, Firefly- cancelled halfway through the first season, (Massive Hit)

Well... it wasn't a massive hit.

To keep a show on the air you need to have good ratings, glowing reviews, incredibly cheap production or a potential to get these things. Firefly had nothing, it had a weird premise, mixed reviews and a lacklustre audience. It didn't look like it was cheap to make either.

Just because it was one of the best shows ever, doesn't mean it was a massive hit.

[Tirian]

Well... it wasn't a massive hit.

To keep a show on the air you need to have good ratings, glowing reviews, incredibly cheap production or a potential to get these things. Firefly had nothing, it had a weird premise, mixed reviews and a lacklustre audience. It didn't look like it was cheap to make either.

Just because it was one of the best shows ever, doesn't mean it was a massive hit.

The mixed reviews and lackluster audience are usually attributed to the fact that FOX couldn't be bothered to air the episodes in the correct order, to the point of airing the two-hour pilot as the final episode before cancellation. Plus regularly pre-empting the show for sporting events. It's anyone's guess whether the show would have caught fire if it had received even an ordinary level of respect from the network, but the love that the DVD set gets is an indication that it may well have.

[Sneak]

Well, it wasn't a massive hit when it was aired, no.

Now, it's definitely a cult hit.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand: one of us...one of us... :smalltongue:

IMHO, Serenity wasn't nearly as good as Firefly, but it was still a solid SF movie. I think some of the things that made the show so great just aren't possible in movie format. That said, it's still pretty good, and some of the deleted scenes are good. I also like the gag reel. :smallbiggrin:

I still refuse to recognize it as a sequel, however, due to the character deaths. Damn you, Joss Whedon! :smallfurious:

[DomaDoma]

Serenity was a bit rushed, definitely - can't wait 'till I read up to the movie as rendered by stillflying.net, because those 'ficcers are solid gold Original Flavor. What baffles me, though, is Mal's character arc for about the first twenty minutes. I mean, not even in Safe was he so cold, and there's no given reason why he should be - though at least they do call him out on it.

Awesome dang movie, though, and provides something resembling closure.

Nathan Fillion in general simply astounds me. He can play "jerkish mercenary type with a few principles", and then play "jerkish mercenary type with no principles", and you have to look him up on IMDB before you believe it's the same guy. He's like the anti-Miyano Mamoru. (Oh, that reminds me - has anyone seen the Ouran dub? How is it?)

On a related yet on-topic note, I really, really hate the red camera filter.

When I hear about Fox's early demands, I am astounded at the grace with which Joss and Tim pulled them off. We need a space hooker? Let's go more along the lines of "geisha" and give her actual character. They want a distinctive thug? Sure, give it to them for a spell, but his body would make some nice subversion fuel, don't you think? That, and the fact that The Train Job was written over the course of a weekend. Serious admiration right there.

Will totally be there for Dollhouse, believe you me.

[Talya]

Say, *hiccup* your coat is kindof a brownish color.

[Sneak]

Serenity was a bit rushed, definitely - can't wait 'till I read up to the movie as rendered by stillflying.net, because those 'ficcers are solid gold Original Flavor. What baffles me, though, is Mal's character arc for about the first twenty minutes. I mean, not even in Safe was he so cold, and there's no given reason why he should be - though at least they do call him out on it.

Yeah, I dunno. Bad day at the office? :smalltongue:

Also, THANK YOU for showing me that—I'm now reading through the rest of the first season. Surprisingly, it's wonderful!


Awesome dang movie, though, and provides something resembling closure.

Nathan Fillion in general simply astounds me. He can play "jerkish mercenary type with a few principles", and then play "jerkish mercenary type with no principles", and you have to look him up on IMDB before you believe it's the same guy. He's like the anti-Miyano Mamoru. (Oh, that reminds me - has anyone seen the Ouran dub? How is it?)

Yeah, Nathan Fillion is amazing. I keep wanting to watch some of his other stuff, but most of it doesn't really interest me that much. I should probably get around to watching it sometime.


On a related yet on-topic note, I really, really hate the red camera filter.

When I hear about Fox's early demands, I am astounded at the grace with which Joss and Tim pulled them off. We need a space hooker? Let's go more along the lines of "geisha" and give her actual character. They want a distinctive thug? Sure, give it to them for a spell, but his body would make some nice subversion fuel, don't you think? That, and the fact that The Train Job was written over the course of a weekend. Serious admiration right there.

I didn't know that they asked for a space hooker, but I had heard about The Train Job, Crow, etc. But yeah, Train Job was still a good episode. Not my favorite, certainly, but still quite decent.


Will totally be there for Dollhouse, believe you me.

So will I...although I'll admit, my expectations aren't too high. The concept of Dollhouse doesn't really appeal to me. Now, I'll still be watching it, because I have faith that Joss Whedon can take an unappealing concept and make it great. But I just hope it turns out more like Firefly and less like Buffy or Angel—while Buffy or Angel were still decent shows, I stopped watching them after a few seasons, and they were nowhere near as good as Firefly.

So, here's hoping.

[Joran]

When I hear about Fox's early demands, I am astounded at the grace with which Joss and Tim pulled them off. We need a space hooker? Let's go more along the lines of "geisha" and give her actual character.

I could have sworn that it was actually Joss' wife that came up with the concept of Inara. I'll have to check my copy of the Firefly Official Companion book.

Yes, welcome to our world. Next up, Dollhouse is toast (Friday death spot).

[SmartAlec]

What baffles me, though, is Mal's character arc for about the first twenty minutes. I mean, not even in Safe was he so cold, and there's no given reason why he should be - though at least they do call him out on it.

I think it can be deduced from comments in the movie that Inara's absence has something to do with it, and those of us familiar with the series can add in Book's absence too. Commentary on some episodes mentions that the crew Mal has assembled on Serenity are almost replacements for the parts of himself that he lost during the war; although the differences in his character between the pilot episode and The Train Job were due to executive meddling, it makes sense if you look at it from that context. Thus, the loss of Book (spirituality, moral compass) and Inara (romanticism, affection) might well send him to a darker place than we're used to, to the point where it's began to erode his protective feelings towards Simon and River.

[DomaDoma]

Yes, welcome to our world. Next up, Dollhouse is toast (Friday death spot).

Let's not just stand aside and let it happen, though, hmm?

I've read all of one short story about identity-replacement-services sci-fi (Somebody Else's House, I think it was called), but from that the concept is catching to me on its own merits.

[The Neoclassic]

I just rewatched five episodes of this with my friend yesterday. He'd never seen it before, and is neither a nerd nor into sci-fi, and he found the show absolutely fantastic. Which, of course, it is.

This is sort of off-topic (since we are discussing Firefly's general awesomeness)...

But is Jayne CN or CE?

[averagejoe]

I'm still pretty saddened by the loss of the show. I mean, I would have watched it even if it was somewhat bad, just because I love space cowboys. Serenity was among the only action movies I've seen where the actiony bits were exciting to me because I actually cared if the characters lived or died.

Edit:
Jayne is CN. He isn't actually sadistic or anything, he's just self interested and has few scruples. Plus no one who wears that hat could be evil. :smalltongue:

[Hzurr]

I actually disagree. I think Jayne is just barely on the CE side. More accurately, he's CE the way it should be played by PCs. He enjoys violence, has no real loyalties except for himself, and has no problem doing morally questionable things for money, or for fun. In the first episode, he was visibly disappointed that he didn't get to torture the guy, and makes it clear a number of times that he'll do anything (anything) for enough money. I mean, look at how Mal hired him originally.

Now, he does have a vague sense of loyalty, and generally wants to be liked, but he has no problem being cruel and crude to anyone, and only cares about himself. This is why the end of the Jaynestown episode affected him so much, because he couldn't understand that people would sacrifice themselves for him. Contrast this with when Simon & River were captured, or Wash and Mal were taken prisoner by Niska. He was either pleased, or didn't really care.

Again, he wasn't super CE, but I'd say he's past simply CN

[Tengu_temp]

Neither - he is NE. Self-interest above everything else, and who cares if people who aren't a part of your crew have to suffer (for most of the series, Simon and River aren't a part of the crew in Jayne's eyes). He mellows out and becomes more N later in the series/movie.



Has anyone noticed that the really ground-breaking SF shows always seem to be plagued with threats of cancellation on the way through?

I mean, Firefly- cancelled halfway through the first season, (Massive Hit)
Babylon 5- had constant fears of cancellation through season 4-5 (and probably earlier as well), (again, massive hit, changed the shape of modern televisual SF)


To continue the trend, Mobile Suit Gundam - the show that single-handedly invented the real robot genre wasn't popular when it first came out, and they produced less episodes than they planned because of that.

[RTGoodman]

Yeah, Nathan Fillion is amazing. I keep wanting to watch some of his other stuff, but most of it doesn't really interest me that much. I should probably get around to watching it sometime.

Dude, go watch "Slither." Nathan's basically Mal, but in sleepy-Southern-town-sheriff version, and he's fightin' alien brain-slug things. It's AWESOME.

I depends on what part of the series we're talkin' about. Early Jayne is somewhere around CE, but with Neutral tendencies. After the events of Jaynestown and (especially) Ariel, he's probably CN or Neutral.

So, now that we're onto it... favorite episodes? I love Jaynestown, The Message, and Out of Gas, but there are several I like just as well. The only one I don't care for is Heart of Gold.

Also, to make folk jealous...


http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v17/31/89/25012232/n25012232_30921692_9508.jpg

Yeah, that's me and Wash. (My coat's a little brown, you see...) I think I've got one with River (Summer) around here somewhere, but it could be on my old laptop and, therefore, inaccessible.

[DomaDoma]

The only one I don't care for is Heart of Gold.

Mm, same. Only seen it once, but it did come over a bit soap-opera and James T. Kirk there. I did like how they explained why they tend to stick with regular guns, though.

[UncleWolf]

Also, to make folk jealous...


http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v17/31/89/25012232/n25012232_30921692_9508.jpg

Yeah, that's me and Wash. (My coat's a little brown, you see...) I think I've got one with River (Summer) around here somewhere, but it could be on my old laptop and, therefore, inaccessible.

Curse you! Its working.

[Headless_Ninja]

Always glad to see a new Browncoat. Anyone read the Firefly graphic novels? I've been meaning too, and what with Amazon sales and all... Should I go for it?

[DomaDoma]

Always glad to see a new Browncoat. Anyone read the Firefly graphic novels? I've been meaning too, and what with Amazon sales and all... Should I go for it?

I've read Those Left Behind and Better Days, and yes, you should. (Why yes, that does mean I haven't got my paws on the one that explains the whole deal with Book. *grumble*)

[Rogue 7]

I've read...um...god, what was it? It's the one where Dobson shows up again. Pretty much the show in comic form, if admittedly a bit short.

Edit: Those Left Behind! That was it!

[Headless_Ninja]

Will have to pick those up then. Have also been trying to get hold of one of the Serenity ornaments, but they don't seem to be stocked in the UK and it seems a lot of effort (ie: cash) to get one shipped from the US. Oh deary. May have to settle for the one with Reaver markings .

[Helanna]

*Comforts OP* There, there, I'm going through the same thing. I was introduced both through this website and TV Tropes, and my favorite Christmas present this year was my Firefly boxed set. I watch it all the time now, and every time I suddenly realize that they canceled it . . . yeah, it's depressing. :smallfrown:


Nathan Fillion in general simply astounds me. He can play "jerkish mercenary type with a few principles", and then play "jerkish mercenary type with no principles", and you have to look him up on IMDB before you believe it's the same guy.

When I first watched Dr. Horrible's Sing-along Blog, I never even noticed that it was him. When I watch it now, I still can hardly connect them.



Yes, welcome to our world. Next up, Dollhouse is toast (Friday death spot).

So, if Fox screws over this show, does that justify setting their buildings on fire? Just asking.

[DomaDoma]

So, if Fox screws over this show, does that justify setting their buildings on fire? Just asking.

Oh, they're giving it a go, though at least it seems it'll be in order. I'd say all-out boycotts are, on the whole, more effective in the long term (starting with pirating Watchmen and sending the DVD price to Universal if I have the meat of that scandal understood, though I don't think anyone does) - but before we get ahead of ourselves, getting people to watch it seems a good preemptive countermeasure.

[RTGoodman]

I've read Those Left Behind and Better Days, and yes, you should. (Why yes, that does mean I haven't got my paws on the one that explains the whole deal with Book. *grumble*)

Gah! Is that one out already!? I guess I'm heading to the comic store tomorrow. :smalltongue: (Seriously, I always forget about the graphic novels when they come out, since I'm barely ever at the comic shop - I only read the Firefly/Serenity ones, and the Stephen King's Dark Tower series.) Either way, yes, you should get the Firefly/Serenity graphic novels. If you can find the original printings of the three issues of "Better Days," grab those - the three covers side-by-side make a pretty cool tritych thingy.

[snoopy13a]

Yes, welcome to our world. Next up, Dollhouse is toast (Friday death spot).

When does that start? I don't really think it'll be good but I'll watch it. I even watched that short-lived car race TV show with Nathan Fillion (Drive, I believe).

Friday night isn't exactly the best night for TV shows geared towards a younger audience. I didn't watch Firefly when it came out (despite being a Buffy fan) simply because that was drinking night. Friday and Saturday night shows should be marketed to little kids and their families (like ABC's old TGIF lineup) or adults in their 50-60s.

[Flame of Anor]

The reason why Mal was so mean in the first part of Serenity is so they could set him up for the movie watchers who hadn't seen the series. I agree that it's unfortunate, but it's a small price to pay for getting the end of the story.

And Jayne is definitely CN.

[Joran]

When does that start? I don't really think it'll be good but I'll watch it. I even watched that short-lived car race TV show with Nathan Fillion (Drive, I believe).


February 13th. Yes, Friday the 13th, I'm not kidding. /sigh.

[Talya]

The reason why Mal was so mean in the first part of Serenity is so they could set him up for the movie watchers who hadn't seen the series. I agree that it's unfortunate, but it's a small price to pay for getting the end of the story.

And Jayne is definitely CN.

Jayne's Much closer to E than N.

[Philistine]

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles is also being moved to Friday nights, and returns from Winter Break on Feb 13. It looks a lot like Fox has already given up on both of these shows. Freaking Fringe, meanwhile, keeps right on coasting in the Tuesday night AI-coattails slot... It's as if their schedule is set by the Imp of the Perverse.

On the other hand, I recall seeing a statement from Fox to the effect that they realize a lot of people are TiVoing and/or watching SCC online (either at Fox's site or at hulu), and they're taking that into account when they look at ratings numbers. So perhaps all is not yet lost.

[SilentNight]

Say, *hiccup* your coat is kindof a brownish color.

It was on sale.


So, now that we're onto it... favorite episodes? I love Jaynestown, The Message, and Out of Gas, but there are several I like just as well. The only one I don't care for is Heart of Gold.
Jaynestown is pretty awesome and damn you I'm jealous. The only episode I really disliked was Out of Gas, although the character backround was pretty nice. It just felt like filler for some reason. I actually really love War Stories as well.

[chiasaur11]

It was on sale.


Jaynestown is pretty awesome and damn you I'm jealous. The only episode I really disliked was Out of Gas, although the character backround was pretty nice. It just felt like filler for some reason. I actually really love War Stories as well.

Huh. I really like out of gas.

I mean, Jaynestown is pretty much tops for the song alone, but out of gas is fairly swell.

[Sneak]

Mmm. I think my favorite episodes would probably be Serenity (it's got everything, and it's twice the length of a normal episode!) and Shindig (just love it).

My least favorite might be Bushwhacked, actually. Not sure why. It's definitely got some great parts, and it did a great job of handling the reavers, but I just never really liked it as much as the others. Dunno. :smallconfused:

[Tengu_temp]

My favorites are probably Jaynestown, Our Mrs Reynolds and Ariel, in that order. Least favorite is Heart of Gold - apart from some amusing lines it didn't really have a Firefly feeling to it, and it overall was too... simple - no plot turns, just preparation for a big shootdown and the shootdown itself afterwards.

[SilentNight]

My favorites are probably Jaynestown, Our Mrs Reynolds and Ariel, in that order. Least favorite is Heart of Gold - apart from some amusing lines it didn't really have a Firefly feeling to it, and it overall was too... simple - no plot turns, just preparation for a big shootdown and the shootdown itself afterwards.

Oooooh, Ariel was awesome.

[TigerHunter]

I second the Heart of Gold dislike - it was trite and cliche. The Message also made me bang my head against the wall because they couldn't take five seconds to explain their plan after he spent several minutes flipping out. And then they shot him. Jerks.

Favorite? Ariel. Demonstrated Simon's capacity for badassery, and the scene at the end was fantastic.

[Kroy]

I love Firefly. Especially the "They say mercy is the sign of a great man." *Stab* "'I guess I'm just a good man." *Stab again* "I'm Okay" *Walks away* Part.

Edit: Jaynestown was pretty awesome too...

[Rogue 7]

I second the Heart of Gold dislike - it was trite and cliche. The Message also made me bang my head against the wall because they couldn't take five seconds to explain their plan after he spent several minutes flipping out. And then they shot him. Jerks.

Favorite? Ariel. Demonstrated Simon's capacity for badassery, and the scene at the end was fantastic.

Heart of Gold was worth it just for the great one-liners.

"They're whores."
"I'm in!"

"Would be you get most poetical about your pecker."

"Wash, tell me I'm pretty."
"Were I unwed, I would take you in a manly fashion."
"Because I'm pretty?"
"Because you're pretty."

"Say hello to your father, Jonas."
*Bang!*
"Say goodbye to your father, Jonas."

And I'm sure there are several others I can't remember. Saying that, my favorite episode is undoubtedly War Stories. It's just pure badassery from every single gorram member of the cast.

[UncleWolf]

Jaynestown is definitely up there.


Jayne, the man they call Jayne

He robbed from the rich
And he gave to the poor
Stood up to the man
And gave him what for
Our love for him now
Ain't hard to explain
The hero of Canton
The man they call Jayne

Our Jayne saw the mudders' backs breakin'
He saw the mudders' lament
And he saw the magistrate takin'
Every dollar and leavin' five cents
So he said "you can't do that to my people"
He said "you can't crush them under your heel"
So Jayne strapped on his hat
And in 5 seconds flat
Stole everythin' Boss Higgins had to steal

He robbed from the rich
And he gave to the poor
Stood up to the man
And gave him what for
Our love for him now
Ain't hard to explain
The hero of Canton
The man they call Jayne

Now here is what separates heroes
From common folk like you and I
The man they call Jayne
He turned 'round his plane
And let that money hit sky
He dropped it onto our houses
He dropped it into our yards
The man they called Jayne
He stole away our pain
And headed out for the stars

He robbed from the rich
And he gave to the poor
Stood up to the man
And gave him what for
Our love for him now
Ain't hard to explain
The hero of Canton
The man they call Jayne.
:smallbiggrin:

[Sholos]

Out of Gas is probably my favorite episode. I just loved seeing how all the crew got together. I liked Heart of Gold, too, because it forced Inara to confront her real feelings (I think that was what the episode was more about than anything else). Ariel is a close second/third.

[kpenguin]

Jaynestown is one of my favorites as well. The song alone makes it awesome. Jaynestown, Ariel, Objects in Space, War Stories, and the pilot are my favorites.

Like previous posters, my least favorite episode was Heart of Gold. It wasn't horrible, but compared to all the sheer awesome that the other episodes were...

[Elhann]

The song, the song... is anyone forgetting Sheperd Book's hair from that very episode? Making Jayne look like a not totally horrible guy is not that hard, but making Zoë fun (If I hadn't so much to do, I'd be in there with her)...

Yeah, Jaynestown was awesome, but I think my favourite is Ours Mrs. Reynolds. From the pretty floral bonnet to the end.
War stories is pure, unadultered badassery (kneecaps off!), and the only badnot totally shiny part of Objects in Space is Kaylee suffering. Yes, it made a lot of sense story-wise, but Kaylee's smile makes the world a shinier place.

I would agree on Hearts of gold being the less firefly-ish episode, but I still like it. Too many excelent lines.

About the well known deaths in the movie... well, it IS Whedon. He kills people for the fun of it (yeah, Amber Benson, you finally made it to the starting credits... to be killed by a lost bullet) Not even being his favourite character saves you Kitty being fused to the missile :smallfrown:

[Sneak]

Oh, man. I can't believe I forgot Objects in Space.

That was fantastic.

[Headless_Ninja]

Objects in Space - great, but still not as good as Out of Gas. It's just awesome moment after heartwarming moment after hilarious moment, over and over again. And the some parts a re a combination of all three!

[Keinnicht]

Cutting good shows is one of Fox's primary means of income, as far as I can tell.

[Helanna]

I'd say all-out boycotts are, on the whole, more effective in the long term (starting with pirating Watchmen and sending the DVD price to Universal if I have the meat of that scandal understood, though I don't think anyone does) - but before we get ahead of ourselves, getting people to watch it seems a good preemptive countermeasure.

FINE, be all logical about it . . . I just wanna set stuff on fire . . .:smallwink:


I think that Heart of Gold would've been a good set-up episode, had the show not been canceled. It did drastically change the relationships on-board, with Inara leaving, no doubt a lot would've come from that. It was one of my least-favorite episodes, but only because I didn't like it *as much* as the others.

My favorite episode? Um . . . let me get back to you after I've gone on an all-day-and-night Firefly marathon. Then maybe I'll choose.

"Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

[Samurai Jill]

I mean, hell, the Fruity Oaty Bar commercial alone is worth the price of the DVD.
The mini-documentary with Whedon is gold.

"Can we make it stranger? -stranger. Odder. Needs to be weirder. More ...bizarre. How about 'uncanny'?"

[Samurai Jill]

Jayne's Much closer to E than N.
Late-series/Serenity Jayne was Chaotic Neutral!
*breaks down sobbing and runs away*
Yes, I do this every time.

[Thufir]

Late-series/Serenity Jayne was Chaotic Neutral!
*breaks down sobbing and runs away*
Yes, I do this every time.

Er... no. No, he wasn't.


I'll kill a man in a fair fight. Or if it looks like he's gonna start a fair fight. Or if there's a woman. Or if I'm gettin' paid... mostly if I'm gettin' paid.

This is not the attitude of a CN, especially the cheerful way he says it. He's still evil. LESS evil, I'll grant you, evil with a few principles more than he had at the start of the series, not as evil as, say, Belkar, but he's still on the evil side.

[Tengu_temp]

Cutting good shows is one of Fox's primary means of income, as far as I can tell.

Just like Captain Planet villains make a living by polluting?

[Samurai Jill]

This is not the attitude of a CN, especially the cheerful way he says it.
Actually, that almost exactly describes Mal. Let me see, there was Dobson, then Crow, then Inara's client whatsisface (he was prepared to kill him,) and of course all those bandits at the opening of Our Mrs. Reynolds.

-Gods, I love proof-by-contradiction.

He also personally risks his life for the greater good at the end, so that has to count for something.

[Thufir]

Actually, that almost exactly describes Mal. Let me see, there was Dobson, then Crow, then Inara's client whatsisface (he was prepared to kill him,) and of course all those bandits at the opening of Our Mrs. Reynolds.

Actually, no it really doesn't. That does not describe Mal at all.
Dobson in the pilot was at least questionable, but he had orders from a legitimate authority and tried to avoid bloodshed. In Those Left Behind, he was evil.
Crow was evil.
Atherton Wing was going by customs of honour etc. Stupid customs, to my mind (And also to Mal's), but still accepted customs of honour. He showed no indication that he took particular pleasure in killing someone, nor that it was something he'd do often, certainly not just because he was getting paid.
We barely see the bandits, so I can't really make a judgement on them.

The significant point is not that they kill people. It's the reasons for it, and the attitude towards it.
To go through Jayne's:
Fair fight is reasonable enough, if there's a reason for it.
"Looks like he's going to start a fair fight." - Not really.
Woman - Maybe, in a case of honour, but killing is going a bit far.
Getting paid - Not really.

And his attitude: Casual, cheerful even. As I said.

[The Neoclassic]

I think Jayne is certainly CE. That doesn't mean I don't love him or don't find him hilarious; I just think that it is the most acccurate label. He betrayed Simon and River and he doesn't really give a damn about who he kills. Heck, he tried to BUY Mal's "wife" from him, demonstrating that he doesn't care about inherent human dignity or rights (an evil trait). Now, he still did feel bad about what he did afterwards (after enough being told off and threatened with death by Mal), and he has been known to do decent things from time to time. However, his good is not close to balancing out his evil, therefore he is not neutral. As far as chaotic, he is a free spirit, seems to have no code of duty, and certainly enjoys sticking it to the law. No lawful tendencies, really, to balanced out his chaotic ones. In conclusion, CE.

[Samurai Jill]

Actually, no it really doesn't. That does not describe Mal at all.
It describes Mal perfectly. Whether those killed were Evil is irrelevant to Mal- as his non-killing of Saffron, the reaver survivor and Rance Burges demonstrate, he doesn't kill people merely for doing bad things to others. He kills for the precise reasons that I mentioned- it's a fair fight, the guy is going to start a fair fight, there's a woman at stake, or he's getting paid for the purposes of personal protection on a job, or AS the job.


Atherton Wing was going by customs of honour etc. Stupid customs, to my mind (And also to Mal's), but still accepted customs of honour. He showed no indication that he took particular pleasure in killing someone...
Actually, Warwick mentioned that he killed a dozen men with a longblade, and Mal was the first to give him a reason. Which again, is irrelevant.

This is yet another case of people presuming to be able to judge a character on the basis, not of what they actually do, but on the basis of a supposed ability to read their mind and magically infer their underlying motives. Have you ever heard of the phrase 'benefit of the doubt' or 'innocent until proven guilty'?

Oh, but I forgot- Jayne has a low Cha score. That must mean he's Evil then.

We barely see the bandits, so I can't really make a judgement on them.
You don't NEED to make a judgement on them! All you need to do is judge Mal! Saying that it's permissible for Mal to kill these people- and indeed, remain good-aligned in the process- but that the same behaviour automatically makes Jayne evil is blatant double-standards. Heck, it's not like we ever actually see Jayne outright killing people outside of self-defence (though there were one or two close shaves.)




Now, he still did feel bad about what he did afterwards (after enough being told off and threatened with death by Mal), and he has been known to do decent things from time to time.
Yes, but the balance of Good acts becomes more pronounced over the course of the series. This is what you call alignment shift. Cripes- see, this what the alignment system has done to gamers- they have difficulty even conceiving the idea that a character could genuinely evolve and grow over time.

I don't deny that Jayne has done Evil things which do provide damning testimony on his character- but isolated, casual and mostly-humorous remarks do not remotely cut the mustard in that regard. If you want to argue that Jayne is Evil, argue from what he does, not what he says, not whether he shows feelings, and certainly not what you imagine he thinks.

Frankly, I don't consider selling out River and Simon to be Evil so much as Chaotic/disloyal- you may recall that he was attacked with a butcher's knife?!

Heck, he tried to BUY Mal's "wife" from him, demonstrating that he doesn't care about inherent human dignity or rights (an evil trait).
"Hell, Mal, I'd treat her alright!"

[The Neoclassic]

This is yet another case of people presuming to be able to judge a character on the basis, not of what they actually do, but on the basis of a supposed ability to read their mind and magically infer their underlying motives. Have you ever heard of the phrase 'benefit of the doubt' or 'innocent until proven guilty'?

Oh, but I forgot- Jayne has a low Cha score. That must mean he's Evil then.

You don't NEED to make a judgement on them! All you need to do is judge Mal! Saying that it's permissible for Mal to kill these people- and indeed, remain good-aligned in the process- but that the same behaviour automatically makes Jayne evil is blatant double-standards. Heck, it's not like we ever actually see Jayne outright killing people outside of self-defence (though there were one or two close shaves.)

Yes, but the balance of Good acts becomes more pronounced over the course of the series. This is what you call alignment shift. Cripes- see, this what the alignment system has done to gamers- they have difficulty even conceiving the idea that a character could genuinely evolve and grow over time.

I don't deny that Jayne has done Evil things which do provide damning testimony on his character- but isolated, casual and mostly-humorous remarks do not remotely cut the mustard in that regard. If you want to argue that Jayne is Evil, argue from what he does, not what he says, not whether he shows feelings, and certainly not what you imagine he thinks.

Frankly, I don't consider selling out River and Simon to be Evil so much as Chaotic/disloyal- you may recall that he was attacked with a butcher's knife?!

"Hell, Mal, I'd treat her alright!"

I'm not gonna argue Mal's alignment for a number of reasons, so this will stick to Jayne only.

No one is arguing that low Charisma (not being likeable) makes Jayne evil. Yeah, he says mean things, and he means them in an unkind way, but that is not a strong argument hence why I do not choose to pursue it, since I admit it is not a good indicator of overall character.

This is a TV show not a trial. First off, we always assume some motive when people do things. That's how life works. Making reasonable guesses as to a person's intent is not an unreasonable thing to do. If someone runs into you with a knife, are you going to wait until you get to prove their vicious intent to judge them? No, you'll probably assume they intended to hurt you. Just saying: You cannot fault others for trying to figure out the characters' motives. Also, you seem to be making a lot of assumptions as to Mal's intent when pointing out why he is terrible.

We look at intent because intent, action, and consequences are what form alignment. Otherwise, if someone was ignorant but good intentioned and took harmful actions, we'd have to judge them as evil. While some people are ignorant from excesssive pride or some other inexcusable factor, it remains that intent is a vital part of determining a person's alignment.

Betraying someone isn't evil, it's just chaotic? I hate to say it, but if that is the case, I see why in the Stupid Evil discussion thread I have people telling me that LG is the best sort of good and CE is the worst sort of evil.

Yes, she attacked him, but it is pretty clear that is NOT why he sold those two out. Additionally, River was not in her right mind. Jayne knows that, and also knows that Mal then confined her to her quarters to prevent anything like that from happening again. At best, you could argue he was angry that he hurt her (since clearly he is not in danger from her), but that does not excuse his actions at all.

You just said, judge Jayne on his actions. He gave them over to authorities despite them being crew members and important to Mal, and KNOWING that they were at serious risk of harm by being returned. I don't have to "imagine" anything to see the action in there. Betraying someone is an evil act.

Oh, so it is OK to have slaves if we treat them well? How would any of us feel if we were given to someone in exchange for a high-quality gun? Would being told "Hey, I'll treat you OK" make any of us feel much better or restore much of our dignity? I mean, come to find out she was a horridly evil woman anyway, but the characters had no inkling of that at the time.

Also, I will be the first to admit that Jayne is becoming LESS evil as the series progresses. If it had gone on longer, he may have hit CN. I think he was close. However, just because you like a character does not make them less evil. People have apparently commited that fallacy with Belkar, even after the Giant directly stated that Belkar was evil and the matter was closed, clearly canon, and not up for discussion.

[Samurai Jill]

If someone runs into you with a knife, are you going to wait until you get to prove their vicious intent to judge them? No, you'll probably assume they intended to hurt you...
Yes! Because they are DOING something! Not making a flippant remark or trying to thank the academy!

Also, you seem to be making a lot of assumptions as to Mal's intent when pointing out why he is terrible.
I DON'T think Mal is terrible! I am perfectly prepared to believe that he had entirely reasonable motives for each occasion when he took a life- I'm just willing to extend Jayne the same courtesy in absence of direct incriminating evidence!

We look at intent because intent, action, and consequences are what form alignment. Otherwise, if someone was ignorant but good intentioned and took harmful actions, we'd have to judge them as evil.
I would certainly say that such a character would actually be neutral. (This is one of my major difficulties with Elan, for instance.)

Yes, she attacked him, but it is pretty clear that is NOT why he sold those two out.
WHY is that pretty clear!? By what magical, mystical, clairvoyant insight do you presume to know Jayne's unspoken motives here? Where is the specific evidence to back up your claims! Because I'm seeing some fairly compelling rational reasons for ditching the Tams- River is personally dangerous, Simon is a liability, and both are fugitives with powerful Alliance interests on their tail. If you're getting rid of them, it's probably only a matter of time before they're hunted down anyway- and it's not like they couldn't use the money.

Like Mal said, "I look ater me and mine. That don't include you 'less I conjure it does." How come Mal reserves the right to arbitrarily determine who he does or doesn't owe loyalty to, but not Jayne?!

Additionally, River was not in her right mind.
"Later on you can explain to me how that's a comfort. Maybe use some of that math of yours."

Whether being dangerous is River's fault is irrelevant- she's still going to be dangerous, and Jayne didn't make her crazy.

"I think it's noble as a grape the way you look to River, but she ain't my sister- and she ain't your crew, so where's it writ that we've gotta lay down our lives for her- which is what you've steered us t'ward!"

Oh, so it is OK to have slaves if we treat them well?
If we're suddenly taking Jayne's offhand comments as binding evidence for his alignment- as certain posters have done- then it seems to me that this cuts both ways: "treat her alright" does not, to my mind, equate with rape, abuse, mistreatment or, for that matter, slavery.

[The Neoclassic]

I DON'T think Mal is terrible! I am perfectly prepared to believe that he had entirely reasonable motives for each occasion when he took a life- I'm just willing to extend Jayne the same courtesy in absence of direct incriminating evidence!

WHY is that pretty clear!? By what magical, mystical, clairvoyant insight do you presume to know Jayne's unspoken motives here? Where is the specific evidence to back up your claims! Because I'm seeing some fairly compelling rational reasons for ditching the Tams- River is personally dangerous, Simon is a liability, and both are fugitives with powerful Alliance interests on their tail. If you're getting rid of them, it's probably only a matter of time before they're hunted down anyway- and it's not like they couldn't use the money.

I'm sorry, but I think that you using so many fuzzy adjectives does not strengthen your point but rather borders on mocking. I do not claim any magical insight. I claim to be a PERSON. People analyze other people's motives. There is no way to PROVE anyone else's motives. The way it comes across is that you seem to think that your "innocent until guilty" assumption is acceptable but all other interpretations are immediately faulty. Please note, you just stayed that the crew could use the money, which suggests that you /assume/ Jayne will share the money with them. My point is that getting frumpled at people because they /assume/ or /infer/ things is not reasonable. You would be more convincing if you focused on evidence as to why your intepretation of a certain action is instead correct.

Additionally, if someone states why they do things, does that count as evidence? I'd have to go back and look up the script, but I think that Jayne's emphasis on getting the reward suggests that is his primary reason for selling them out. He was not in serious danger from the injury (especially thanks to River's brother) and the tone in which he mentions it again is an angry tone, not a fearful one. We've seen Jayne scared at several points in the series, and reading basic facial expressions is something people can do easily and accurately (plus, Jayne hasn't shown much attempt at hiding his emotions). He has shown fear even towards River at other points in the series, but not during this episode. I state somewhere else in this post (I've been skipping around to make sure I hit all the points), Jayne explicitly states in the first episode the only reason he did not sell the crew out was because the money was not good enough.


Like Mal said, "I look ater me and mine. That don't include you 'less I conjure it does." How come Mal reserves the right to arbitrarily determine who he does or doesn't owe loyalty to, but not Jayne?!

Mal watches after people in his crew who have shown loyalty to him. Jayne does the same... unless someone else will pay him more. He stated in the first episode that he would betray Mal if the money was good enough.


Whether being dangerous is River's fault is irrelevant- she's still going to be dangerous, and Jayne didn't make her crazy.

I never claimed Jayne did make her crazy. I don't think anyone did. I would like to again, however, point out that she was confined to her quarters. If she will not be around knives or around Jayne, I fail to see how she remains a threat to him.


If we're suddenly taking Jayne's offhand comments as binding evidence for his alignment- as certain posters have done- then it seems to me that this cuts both ways: "treat her alright" does not, to my mind, equate with rape, abuse, mistreatment or, for that matter, slavery.

I do not think he would have raped or abused her. However, exchanging a person for a good still says that person is NOT a person but a good to be bought or sold. Something less than a person. By proposing this deal, Jayne denies that the woman has the right to choose whom she is to be with. If he thought that who she was with should be entirely up to her, he would approach her? If you want your friend's boyfriend, what do you do? Do you offer your friend your season of "Firefly" in exchange for him, or do you approach him and talk to him about your feelings? The point here is that you cannot offer to purchase someone without inherently denying that they are a full, dignified, independent human being.

Also, I'd like to remind you that I have NOT been taking "offhand comments" as hard evidence here, as I explained in my last post. If you really have a problem with something someone says, you may say "So-and-so is using these comments as evidence. Likewise, I shall point out this comment as evidence." Sarcasm just leaves a nasty taste in people's mouths.

I LOVE JAYNE. He makes me laugh, sometimes he has hints of a warm heart, and he is certainly one of my favorite characters. It comes across as if you are taking this as an attack on Jayne, which I cannot make more clear: It is not. If you are taking it as such, please, please understand that is not the case. It is unpleasant when people get defensive because of misunderstandings of the other's intent.

[Thufir]

**** The forum ate my post, so I'll give you a briefer version of it:

It describes Mal perfectly. Whether those killed were Evil is irrelevant to Mal- as his non-killing of Saffron, the reaver survivor and Rance Burges demonstrate, he doesn't kill people merely for doing bad things to others. He kills for the precise reasons that I mentioned- it's a fair fight, the guy is going to start a fair fight, there's a woman at stake, or he's getting paid for the purposes of personal protection on a job, or AS the job.
Mal would kill someone in a fair fight, if he had to. That makes a big difference.

If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed.
I would say this discounts 'going to start a fair fight'
Woman - Mal wouldn't kill just over a woman. Wound, maybe. He'd fight someone over a woman, kill them if they were going to kill him over that woman, but not otherwise. Also it's a bit more noble in his case if you consider what we know of Jayne's views on women.
Getting paid - If a job entails killing someone, Mal wouldn't take it. I'm sure of that. If a job goes wrong, he'll shoot people in self-defence, and they may not survive, but he doesn't set out with the intention of killing people.


This is yet another case of people presuming to be able to judge a character on the basis, not of what they actually do, but on the basis of a supposed ability to read their mind and magically infer their underlying motives. Have you ever heard of the phrase 'benefit of the doubt' or 'innocent until proven guilty'?

Actions don't determine alignment. Motives do, and are therefore the relevant point here.


Oh, but I forgot- Jayne has a low Cha score. That must mean he's Evil then.

Please. Give me some respect. I'm judging this as impartially as I can. And since you mention it, I'd say Jayne has higher charisma than at least Simon.


You don't NEED to make a judgement on them! All you need to do is judge Mal! Saying that it's permissible for Mal to kill these people- and indeed, remain good-aligned in the process- but that the same behaviour automatically makes Jayne evil is blatant double-standards.

Sorry, I misinterpreted the point of that list of people, I think.
Of course, I never said Mal was good-aligned. He hovers around the line between good and neutral. But you'll note Mal didn't plan to kill the bandits. He was just ready to do so if necessary.


Heck, it's not like we ever actually see Jayne outright killing people outside of self-defence (though there were one or two close shaves.)

That's at least partly because he's following Mal's orders.


Yes, but the balance of Good acts becomes more pronounced over the course of the series. This is what you call alignment shift.

True, Jayne's alignment is shifting towards neutral. But I wouldn't say it's got there yet.


Cripes- see, this what the alignment system has done to gamers- they have difficulty even conceiving the idea that a character could genuinely evolve and grow over time.

Now you're being unfair to gamers. Sure, characters change and evolve over time, but an actual alignment change is a fairly significant thing. You mentioned earlier 'innocent until proven guilty', I would say in D&D we generally apply the rule of 'Alignment the same until proven otherwise'.


I don't deny that Jayne has done Evil things which do provide damning testimony on his character- but isolated, casual and mostly-humorous remarks do not remotely cut the mustard in that regard.

The fact he is casual and humorous about killing people is a bit of a telling point to me.


If you want to argue that Jayne is Evil, argue from what he does, not what he says, not whether he shows feelings, and certainly not what you imagine he thinks.

Again, motives, not actions, determine alignment. We have to try and gain as accurate an impression of a character as we can to judge their alignment, so disregarding what they say would be foolish in the extreme. And what we imagine he thinks is the impression we have of him. It's less a means of judging his alignment as it is the end result of doing so.

Final point: In common usage, 'evil' is a fairly damning term. In alignment terms, however, it refers to a vast range of moral outlooks.
Jayne has clearly been moving towards neutral as time goes by. But I would say that at most, he might be neutral after Miranda. But there's not enough after that to judge accurately. As I said above, 'Alignment the same until proven otherwise'. Also, the 'line between evil and neutral' is a misleading image. We have to consider it since you can only be one or the other, but really, there's just kind of a blurry area between the definitely evil and the definitely neutral which is open to some interpretation or arbitrary decision. Jayne's got into that area, but since he started out as evil, we are likely to consider him still evil.

[hamishspence]

while Complete Scoundrel lists Mal as CG, I'd say, if he is, its very close to the borderline, and a case could be made that by Serenity he's reached CN.

[Samurai Jill]

The way it comes across is that you seem to think that your "innocent until guilty" assumption is acceptable but all other interpretations are immediately faulty.
Yes, I DO happen to believe that! I think judging people without direct evidence is inherently wrong! It's not like there's a crippling shortage of direct Evil-Jayne evidence anyway!

Please note, you just stayed that the crew could use the money, which suggests that you /assume/ Jayne will share the money with them.
I'm not assuming that at all. I am pointing out that is a rational motive for ditching the Tams- if the rest of the crew pass it up, that's no fault of Jayne's, and it applies equally well to him personally.

You would be more convincing if you focused on evidence as to why your intepretation of a certain action is instead correct.
I'm not trying to foist my interpretation on others as the only correct one. I am pointing out that there is not sufficient evidence to jump to the more damning interpretation, and I will not judge Jayne on that basis.

Additionally, if someone states why they do things, does that count as evidence? I'd have to go back and look up the script, but I think that Jayne's emphasis on getting the reward suggests that is his primary reason for selling them out.
I'm not denying it's a possible factor in the decision- but again, this does not make him Evil. The Tams are a danger to him and the rest of the crew as long as they are aboard- Getting rid of them is not Evil. There is also nothing inherently Evil about making money. The fact of the matter is that Jayne is not responsible for the Tam's situation and is not obligated to keep rescuing them from it.

He was not in serious danger from the injury...
Oh, so it's okay to stab people, as long as you're inept about it and stitch up afterwards?- Hell, yes, he's angry! He is justifiably angry about being compelled to choose between his already-precarious livelihood and living alongside a violent schizophrenic! I have all the sympathy in the world for River, but she is simply Not Jayne's Problem.

Mal watches after people in his crew who have shown loyalty to him.
Unless, of course, it becomes expedient for him to use them on a job, as was the case with River in Serenity. Serenity basically proves that Jayne had a perfectly viable justification for his actions- the crew are simply out of their league here.

I never claimed Jayne did make her crazy. I don't think anyone did. I would like to again, however, point out that she was confined to her quarters.
Actually, I don't think Jayne was told that, and it still strikes me as a fairly flimsy precaution.

Jayne explicitly states in the first episode... that he would betray Mal if the money was good enough.
Yeah- and then he throws in most of his ill-gotten earnings from Ariel in order to RANSOM THE CAPTAIN! And when that doesn't work, he busts out Vera to go rescue him on a self-professed suicide mission! What, exactly, does that tell you about his late-series priorities?!

However, exchanging a person for a good still says that person is NOT a person but a good to be bought or sold. Something less than a person.
Well, I imagine that puts, for example, Nandi in a fairly compromising moral position, wouldn't you say? Again, there is no significant evidence for serious wrongdoing on Jayne's part here.

Sarcasm just leaves a nasty taste in people's mouths.

Oh, so it is OK to have slaves if we treat them well?

[Tirian]

Ah, the good old debates about which of nine poorly-understood boxes to put well-written complex characters into. How I miss them when they're not around. Anyway, demons are CE and men who are looking out for Number One are CN. Which of those is more like Jayne, hmmmm?

And it seems to me that Mal murdered Crow in cold blood pretty much because it was funny. Also, for people who haven't read the graphic novels, there is at least one where Mal does something pretty darned unconscionable to the crew. But it comes down to that dumb Robin Hood debate about whether a rebellion leader is Lawful because he is effective and principled or Chaotic because he fights The Man.

[The Neoclassic]

OK, so that was a little snippy of me with that comment. I apologize. I'd also like to point out that you have yet to explain how slavery is OK. I get upset when people indicate that offering to buy a woman is not wrong.

What River did was NOT OK. Two wrongs do NOT make a right. If you stabbed me, I would be angry. Would that make it any more right for me to give you over to people whom I know cut into your brain and destroyed your emotional balance?

I will respond more when I am a bit calmer. It does make me sad that while I am trying to be reasonable and make concessions (I admit that I have failed at some points), by pointing out when I agree with you, you have done nothing to the sort (if you have and I've missed it, please point it out). In arguments, it is rare that someone is 100% right, particularly on an issue such as this that is not concrete. Therefore, if you do not acknowledge any points that the other person makes, the argument goes nowhere. If that's your intent, because you are 100% right, and all of my love of Jayne and attempts to acknowledge when you were correct means nothing to you, please state so and I will cease arguing. If I know that nothing I say has any possibility of being "right," there is no point for me to continue "discussing." This is not me trying to be at all nasty, but rather not cause more unhappiness if my points will not ever be considered valid.

[Samurai Jill]

Alright, fine, my bad: I didn't mean to upset people here, and I'm sorry if I caused distress or offence during my posts. It just infuriates me to see people jumping to unfounded conclusions about other people.

I'd also like to point out that you have yet to explain how slavery is OK.
Of course it isn't. I just don't see concrete evidence that outright slavery was on the table here- it's not like Jayne was ready and waiting with the manacles and branding iron. Jayne 'buys' women from second parties all the time- it's called 'prostitution'.

What River did was NOT OK. Two wrongs do NOT make a right. If you stabbed me, I would be angry. Would that make it any more right for me to give you over to people whom I know cut into your brain and destroyed your emotional balance?
I don't think River's action was 'wrong' in the first place, because she had no control over her actions- but that's the point: the same factors that makes River innocent also make her dangerous. It's not a question of blame, it's just a question of cause and consequence.

No- of course it is not a Good thing to be handed back to people who cut up your brain and destroyed your emotional balance, but the only way for the crew to save River from this in the long term is by risking life and limb on the Tam's behalf. Now, if Mal wants to do that, then that's his business- but the problem is that he expects the same degree of sacrifice from Jayne as long as he's on the crew.

Now, you can argue that just dumping the Tams on the nearest border world would have been the Neutral option- but it's been made clear over the series that the Tams are probably doomed regardless if they jump ship- the likely scenario is that they either wind up dead or captured within a week. Mal, again, was willing to face that option in Serenity.

And okay, maybe Jayne didn't know all of this for sure, and/or didn't entirely care. It might not even be likely. But I think there are extenuating circumstances here that should be taken into account. That's all I'm saying.

[Samurai Jill]

Mal would kill someone in a fair fight, if he had to. That makes a big difference.
Yeah- such as when there's a significant chance that the other guy would pose a threat at some unspecified future point. I don't blame Mal for this attitude- I think it's the only sane one in his circumstances- but I'm not about to rose-tint Mal's record in order to make Jayne look bad by comparison.

Woman - Mal wouldn't kill just over a woman. Wound, maybe.
Mal was perfectly eager to duel Atherton with pistols, which is generally lethal, and said explicitly "well I plan on it being his death"- and that's even when he had a risk-free escape option.

Getting paid - If a job entails killing someone, Mal wouldn't take it. I'm sure of that.
Mal is in a line of work which entails shooting/killing people on a surprisingly regular basis. I'm confident he doesn't kid himself about that.

Actions don't determine alignment. Motives do, and are therefore the relevant point here.
I don't agree, for reasons I have already gotten into elsewhere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5654413&postcount=52).

Please. Give me some respect. I'm judging this as impartially as I can. And since you mention it, I'd say Jayne has higher charisma than at least Simon.
...Probably, now that you mention it. Hm.

Now you're being unfair to gamers. Sure, characters change and evolve over time, but an actual alignment change is a fairly significant thing. You mentioned earlier 'innocent until proven guilty', I would say in D&D we generally apply the rule of 'Alignment the same until proven otherwise'.
Yeah- except that Jayne didn't come with a bright neon Chaotic Evil Warranty slapped on his forehead in episode 1. There's no direct way to tell where, exactly, he lay on the alignment spectrum- and it IS a spectrum- initially, except through our own observations over the course of the series. Maybe he was only 35% Evil- whatever that means, exactly- and heading upwards.
Unfortunately, the alignment system is hopelessly underdefined when it comes to specifying exactly what magnitude of acts over what timescale allow for alignment shift, so on reflection I suspect it's impossible to settle the matter definitively...
*sighs*
I hate having to agree to disagree.

[Thufir]

I hate having to agree to disagree.

Well, we almost agree. Just you think Jayne has already definitely gone from evil to neutral while I say he's somewhere around the very blurry line between the two.

[Neek]

I'd always assumed, since episode one, that Jayne was at worst Neutral Evil, at best Chaotic Neutral. Why Neutral Evil? Because he'd do anything for money; he'd sell out the crew if the pay was right. But if a man only desires money, and you were going to pay him to obey the law, he more than likely would if it cost more than breaking it.

Though to really understand a character's alignment, especially in an established storyline that has no respect to alignment, one must assume one of four things (not just one): Motive, intent, action, and consequence. What are you wont to do, what do you intend to come of it, what was the action, and what came of the action.

Jayne was willing to sell out the Tams, who were members of the crew he was initially hired on to. Regardless of a thinly veiled intent to "protect the crew," I would daresay he was more interested in it for the money. Fact is, selling out your teammates is not a Good act, nor a Neutral act, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise: Removing yourself from the situation for your own protection would be a Neutral act. Risking your neck to protect people would be a Good act. Selling out crew members to people who will harm them--whether physically or mentally--under any motive is still an Evil act, especially if you have some idea of what they will do to these people once under their control.

It is apprehensible to us, as the audience, that Jayne would sell out his compatriots. That is the reaction that is intended, because that is the way the entire sequence was written and directed, and any argument would be an appeal to living in a grandiose fantasy land where the director's intent of making you say, "Damnit, Jayne, that's just wrong" would in any such sense imply otherwise. It is apprehensible to the remaining crew-members, and the Tams themselves that they would even be among someone who would do something like that.

One cannot argue against that, nor the motives of the character, especially when the archetype of the character is pre-defined at the pilot UNLESS there was considerable, insurmountable and unquestionable evidence to the contrary that states the character would do this with under any intent than already given. Jayne COULD have sold them out with the intent to protect the crew, but such an assumption was neither enforced nor confirmed in the episode as a whole by suddenly changing the archetype that made Jayne possible in each episode that would follow.

[hamishspence]

At worst, NE, at best CN, combine the two and you get CE, bordering on CN :smallbiggrin:

Jayne has both Chaotic tendencies and Evil tendencies, but the two combined don't make him Demonic, just not very nice.

He has good points, but they aren't quite strong enough to move him into Neutral territory, at least, not early in the series.