The other Order...

[Trixie]

...you know, the one drawn in crayons. Everyone an their mother keep shouting Soon and his company were epic level heroes - how do they know that?

For all we know, they could have been 6th level heroes from 2th edition of D&D; There were NO indications whatsoever regarding the class of most of them, much less their level, so where the 'epic' part comes from?

Did someone invented himself a fanon explanation or did I missed something?

[kpenguin]

I'm not sure about the other members of the Order of the Scribble, but Dorukan pulled off some very fancy work in Start of Darkness that indicates epic level. Specifically the amount of Astral Devas he summoned using Gate and the amount of Energy Drains that it took to kill him indicate a level above 20.

[Tempest Fennac]

Minor SoD spoiler.

Redcloak mentions that both him and Xykon would need to be epic to research how to build a gate while creating one after RC burns Lirian's gate down.

RC also assumes that Soon is epic level during that fight, but I think that may have just been an assumption.

[Jan Mattys]

And, Cloister is Epic Magic, and Dorukan did it.

[Trixie]

He might have bought that circlet from someone.

Gates - you're able to cast them at levels 17-20, non-Epic.

Okay, Dorukan (and possibly Lirian) might have been Epic, as they were the oldest members of the group, I'll grant that. Still, no evidence whatsoever for others.

[Optimystik]

They were up against a threat that the gods couldn't properly handle. Why wouldn't they be epic, at least by the end of it?


He might have bought that circlet from someone.

He could have gotten it in a cereal box for all we know. Where it came from is irrelevant - Xykon says it is a focus, meaning that it doesn't cast Cloister by itself. You need to be an epic arcanist to use it.

Besides which, Dorukan developed the Cloister spell from scratch. Sounds like epic magic to me.

[RMS Oceanic]

When a group of people adventure together, they're usually within a couple of levels of each other. Dorukan and Lirian are clearly epic, as they researched the gates in the first place, as well as Cloister. The others might not actually be epic, but they're in the high teens at the absolute minimum.

[Trixie]

RC also assumes that Soon is epic level during that fight, but I think that may have just been an assumption.

Nope, he didn't. He only guessed he, as a ghost, wasn't affected because he probably had too much Hit Dice (and the room was sanctified). Nothing about levels or being epic. For all we know he might have had only HD then, having lost all his levels.

[Trixie]

When a group of people adventure together, they're usually within a couple of levels of each other. Dorukan and Lirian are clearly epic, as they researched the gates in the first place, as well as Cloister. The others might not actually be epic, but they're in the high teens at the absolute minimum.

Okay, but there are two points I want to add:

First, you didn't have Epis levels in 2nd edition, which they probably were (do we know which edition they were, actually?);

Second, while I agree with your line of thinking (as the casters IMHO were of the highest level in the group) the gates were build AFTER they finished the quest. It is possible that Lirian and Dorukan barely gained enough XP to ascend to 21st level when they defeated the Snarl at the last gate, and I doubt others managed even that, especially not Kraagor. They never shown anything resembling epic-level skills.

If they were oh-so-epic as their fans present them, they would have wiped the floor with Team Evil without effort.

[hamishspence]

the "earlier edition" jokes in DCF "my daddy was a 1st edition thief" and Origin "this be a prequel. we're still under 3.0 rules" may be throwaway joke and might not dictate rules in SoD.

A clue would be if anything turns up in SOD that doesn't really work in earlier editions.

SOD Spoilers:

Given Dorukan's "only the most epic magic can defend the gates"in Paladin Blues, and Xykons "By all accounts, this Dorukan is an epic level wizard" in SOD (and given the time is only a year before- well within Roy and Durkon's being under 3.0 rules) the Dorukan of recent times has some evidence to suggest he is epic level.

the Order of the Scribble, at the time of events, might be rather lower. and, despite being a druid, Lirian is rather outclassed by Xykon 20+ years before (admittedly she was less prepared), whereas Dorukan is his equal 1 year before. Suggesting they may have levelled a little over the years.

[Mina Kobold]

the "earlier edition" jokes in DCF "my daddy was a 1st edition thief" and Origin "this be a prequel. we're still under 3.0 rules" may be throwaway joke and might not dictate rules in SoD.

A clue would be if anything turns up in SOD that doesn't really work in earlier editions.

SOD Spoilers:

Given Dorukan's "only the most epic magic can defend the gates"in Paladin Blues, and Xykons "By all accounts, this Dorukan is an epic level wizard" in SOD (and given the time is only a year before- well within Roy and Durkon's being under 3.0 rules) the Dorukan of recent times has some evidence to suggest he is epic level.

the Order of the Scribble, at the time of events, might be rather lower. and, despite being a druid, Lirian is rather outclassed by Xykon 20+ years before (admittedly she was less prepared), whereas Dorukan is his equal 1 year before. Suggesting they may have levelled a little over the years.

Xykon also used creae undea as his first spell and was turned into a lich (Bonus HD) immune to the best weapon they had and got DR (and other lich goodies).

[hamishspence]

Liches go back a long way, but Damage Reduction is indeed a 3.0-onward thing- before then, it was immunity to damage with weapons of less than X enhancement.

I'm inclined to think, given the timeline, that the 1st edition bit counts as a joke, not a serious statement about how the rules worked back then.

[Kish]

First, you didn't have Epis levels in 2nd edition, which they probably were (do we know which edition they were, actually?);
We saw the Order update to 3.5 edition in the first strip. Certainly the still-existing members of the Order of the Scribble are 3.5 edition now, whatever they were when they adventured together.

Also, Serini said in one of the crayon flashbacks that she was thinking of taking a level of paladin. In 2ed, "Thinking of taking a level of" would be largely incoherent and "I intend to be a paladin" spoken in any form by a halfling would suggest an impossibility. Beyond that, your starting post makes me blink. No--excuse me, NO indications whatsoever regarding the class of most of them? Dorukan was a wizard, Lirian was a druid, Serini was a rogue, Soon was a paladin, Kraagor was a barbarian. Shojo was perfectly explicit about all of those. One out of six constitutes most?

I'm also unclear about your use of "were" here. They were certainly not epic-level when they started adventuring; they were first level like all starting characters in the OotS universe (we know from Start of Darkness that there are no free rides in that area). At least two of them (Lirian and Dorukan) were epic-level when we last saw them in Start of Darkness; most likely the other four are/were pretty close in level.

I'm all for not claiming knowledge we don't have, but here you're denying knowledge we do have.

[Trixie]

Beyond that, your starting post makes me blink. No--excuse me, NO indications whatsoever regarding the class of most of them? Dorukan was a wizard, Lirian was a druid, Serini was a rogue, Soon was a paladin, Kraagor was a barbarian. Shojo was perfectly explicit about all of those. One out of six constitutes most?

Girard is a puzzle, IIAR Kraagor's and Serini's classes were never precisely established, and we don't know in Dorukan is a straight wizard, some kind of specialist or variant. The only sure members were Lirian and Soon, although given Miko's tirade about what exactly her 'samurai' title means... :P

[hamishspence]

"raging make kraagor a thirsty boy" SoD.

and the Crayons of Time bit calls him a "barbarian dwarf" and Sereni a "halfling rogue" While these terms can be used outside of class context, class is the simpler explanation.

Illusionist, in 3rd ed, generally means wizard specialist in illusion. Elan isn't called an illusionist despite using them.

So calling Dorukan a plain wizard might distinguish him from Girard- probably not a specialist unless evidence suggests otherwise.

[Kish]

Girard is a puzzle, IIAR Kraagor's and Serini's classes were never precisely established,
I don't know what IIAR (is it If I Accurately Recall, a variant of IIRC?) stands for, but asserting it doesn't make it true. "The dwarf barbarian...the halfling rogue..."

Yes. That is precisely established. And even if it wasn't, that would mean you claimed three out of six were "most," as well as going from "no indications whatsoever" to arguing that Shojo calling two of them a "dwarf barbarian" and a "halfling rogue" doesn't count as precisely establishing the classes of those two. What's your horse in this race? Why do you want their classes not to be known?

[The Minx]

Gates - you're able to cast them at levels 17-20, non-Epic.

I don't think that is the kind of "gate" being spoken about. :)

[hamishspence]

and Cloister, at least, is called out as an epic spell researched by Dorukan.

Suggesting that the Rift-reinforcing gates that hold the sealed rifts securely may have been created through the large amounts of research done by Dorukan and Lirien, and they may be epic magic too.

[David Argall]

The party ended up able to beat the [hampered] Snarl. They had fought at 5 gates against various forces. Before they had done that, they had been adventuring over a wide area of the world... This all reads like an entire campaign that could take you from 1st to 20th. Add in that these characters apparently start at substantial levels. [Soon is around age 50 at the time.]
It's hard to see how they can be much less than epic.

[Trixie]

And even if it wasn't, that would mean you claimed three out of six were "most," as well as going from "no indications whatsoever" to arguing that Shojo calling two of them a "dwarf barbarian" and a "halfling rogue" doesn't count as precisely establishing the classes of those two. What's your horse in this race? Why do you want their classes not to be known?

No. I simply do not have SoD - if it was established there, well, fine. I was simply trying avoiding jumping to conclusions, and trying to establish precisely what we know about them from Giant, not what someone invented for fanon (plus, with all the edition jokes I wasn't sure if they weren't from 2nd, where there were no barbarians).

Okay, Serini and Kraagor were established with more precision in bonus material. That still leaves the question of their level and of certain 'illusionist' who goes melee and dual-wields falchions. :smallsigh:

[Trixie]

The party ended up able to beat the [hampered] Snarl. They had fought at 5 gates against various forces. Before they had done that, they had been adventuring over a wide area of the world... This all reads like an entire campaign that could take you from 1st to 20th. Add in that these characters apparently start at substantial levels. [Soon is around age 50 at the time.]
It's hard to see how they can be much less than epic.

Um, should I point you to several characters in the strip that are older than that and are still 1st level? :smallamused:

While I agree with 1-20th level campaign patch, that was pretty much it - they sit around on their asses afterwards, with possible exception of Dorukan and Lirian, who went to earn enough XP to earn enough for their 21st level t make gates. Do we have any information to give anyone except those two anything more?

No offense, but I want to establish precisely what we know about them and 'it's hard to see' argument can be used to give them all 40th level with about dozer divine ranks on the side. :smallwink:

[Nerdanel]

I think Lirian... (SoD spoilers)

was roughly as powerful as Dorukan but simply had no idea how to fight a lich. She would have done a lot better if she had transformed to a more suitable creture for example. Claw/claw/bite doesn't bypass Xykon's damage resistance since it's not bludgeoning damage and he's also immune to lightning.

The Guardian Virus looks very much like an epic spell.


Incidentally, I've been thinking that Haley's father having been a First Edition rogue means that she isn't a full human, as was hinted in the cryptograms. Maybe she's a quarter elf or something with Celestial heritage.

[hamishspence]

"Not exactly what you would call _____" can be interpreted many ways. While I do not dismiss the "human" answer as "less sane" I do think it is "less probable"

[Kish]

No. I simply do not have SoD - if it was established there, well, fine. I was simply trying avoiding jumping to conclusions, and trying to establish precisely what we know about them from Giant, not what someone invented for fanon (plus, with all the edition jokes I wasn't sure if they weren't from 2nd, where there were no barbarians).

Okay, Serini and Kraagor were established with more precision in bonus material.

Serini and Kraagor were established with more precision in the crayon strip that introduced them. Shojo calls them a dwarf barbarian and a halfling rogue at the same time he calls Soon a paladin from Azure City, Dorukan a wizard, and Lirian a druid. The only ambiguous one, the only one ever to be ambiguous, is Girard. As for Girard...

Rich sometimes seems to use "tracker" interchangeably with "ranger." Considering the dual-wielding as well, I would guess Girard has ranger levels, though he's obviously not a single-classed ranger. But it's just speculation.

[Trixie]

Serini and Kraagor were established with more precision in the crayon strip that introduced them. Shojo calls them a dwarf barbarian and a halfling rogue at the same time he calls Soon a paladin from Azure City, Dorukan a wizard, and Lirian a druid. The only ambiguous one, the only one ever to be ambiguous, is Girard. As for Girard...

Rich sometimes seems to use "tracker" interchangeably with "ranger." Considering the dual-wielding as well, I would guess Girard has ranger levels, though he's obviously not a single-classed ranger. But it's just speculation.

Yeah, and Miko established herself as a Samurai. Hilarity ensued. Even you (above) are giving an example of title/description not matching with class. As I want to establish their classes/levels as precisely as possible I was looking for examples that specifically address their class - such as Serini commenting about Soon and his paladin levels. Rogue or wizard, while most probably being of these classes, are descriptions that actually fit about a dozen different possible classes or their combinations.

Now, as for Girard - he doesn't make sense. Rangers don't have any illusions worth mentioning, a multiclassed ranger would be far inferior to Dorukan in illusions (unless Dorukan was a specialist with barred illusion school, or some other variant or modification of wizard - so not "definite" pure wizard) - and besides, if he were, he would be useless, as with both hands occupied he wouldn't be able to cast spells, nor he would be able to efficiently fight with levels in class granting these spells (with d4 HP and very poor BAB of true 'illusionist' wizard). Besides, he seems to be wearing some sort or breast armor (breastplate?) so he can't be that either, unless he is some kind of Elan-like-dumb-wizard-without-spells type or is about 6-10 levels above the rest, simply to match them...

Frankly, the only thing that would make any sense would be multiclassed (Fighter or Ranger)/Mage, but it seems that was ruled out. Oh, wait, didn't humans dualclass? In that case, no 2nd edition either.

[BRC]

Considering the focus on illusions, I would go for a multiclassed Ranger/Beguiler. Yeah, it's unoptomized, but remember that the OoTs includes A Rogue without a melee weapon, a single-class fighter, a small-sized ranger/barbarian that duel-wields DAGGERS (1d3 damage at small size, and everbody considers twf to be pointless unless you have some sorce of extra damage like sneak attack, plus he could easily wield shortswords) and has a negative wisdom score, dosnt appear to wear armor, dosn't have an animal companion, ect.
Optomization takes a backseat to the Rule of Cool in Ootsverse.

[Kish]

Considering the focus on illusions, I would go for a multiclassed Ranger/Beguiler.
Noncore=unlikely, I'd say.

[BRC]

Noncore=unlikely, I'd say.
There has already been noncore stuff in Oots. But if you insist, he could be a battle sorceror.

[Kish]

If I truly felt compelled to guess, rather than wait and see what Rich meant for him to be, my guess would be "mostly sorcerer, with one or two levels of ranger."

[Occasional Sage]

*snip*
(plus, with all the edition jokes I wasn't sure if they weren't from 2nd, where there were no barbarians).
*snip*


Minor nitpick: they were around in 2e. In AD&D they were introduced in the UA; in 2, they were (IIRC) introduced in the Complete Fighter as a kit.

[Tyrmatt]

Assuming the universe did work on a level of "upgrading" the rules once in a while, everyone who was upgraded would have to have the equivalant skillset and power level.
So while epic levels may not have existed in the past, as "high level" adventurers, they would have been counterparted to the currently existing epic levels. So names change, abilities are swapped but by the assumption that overall power level of the characters does not increase with universal revisions, they must automatically reach an equivalent power level.
Hence previous editon characters being "epic" in the current edition.

[David Argall]

Incidentally, I've been thinking that Haley's father having been a First Edition rogue means that she isn't a full human, as was hinted in the cryptograms. Maybe she's a quarter elf or something with Celestial heritage.
Depending on the edition meant, this may mean Haley's was entirely human. Some early versions did not allow non-humans to have classes. And we have her dad pictured at least twice, appearing very non-elven in both cases. So not much chance she gets any non-human blood from him.