Keen + improved critical to stack?

[Pegasos989]

So... Any suggestions on how rules could be altered that it would actually benefit to have both keen and improved crit but not be broken?

[Yuki Akuma]

You could make them only partially stack. That is, having both first doubles your crit rate (say from 20 to 19-20), then adds a further one?

(This way you don't get stupid 11-20 critical rates, but you still get something from having both.)

[Captain van der Decken]

Doesn't seem that broken

[Latronis]

It ain't broke

[Pegasos989]

You could make them only partially stack. That is, having both first doubles your crit rate (say from 20 to 19-20), then adds a further one?

(This way you don't get stupid 11-20 critical rates, but you still get something from having both.)

Yeah, that is the best thing I have thought about so far but thought that it is a bit more beneficial to axe-users (Greataxe would beceome 18/x3 so tripled the range while a rapier/falchion would become 14/x2 so 2.3 times or tomething). Still, best idea so far.



Mike the mage & captain, you were referring to yuki's suggestion, right?

Cause if you werent, getting falchions with 12/x2 crit range for +1 enchantment and 1 feat would be broken.

[Yuki Akuma]

Especially if they had Burst powers...

[Pegasos989]

Especially if they had Burst powers...

The good ol' 3.0, eh?

[The Clown]

In all my campaigns, keen and improved crit stacks. But you but remember the golden rule for multiplication:

IF YOU YOU DOUBLE SOMETHING TWICE IT TRIPLED NOT QUADRUPLED.

So, a keen longsword would have a crit of 17-20. If the same longsword were used with this feat it would have a crit of 15-20.

The maximum crit is with an 18-20 weapon. with keen and imp. crit. it gets as low as 12-20.

[Pegasos989]

The maximum crit is with an 18-20 weapon. with keen and imp. crit. it gets as low as 12-20.

Which is, as said, far too strong that I would want to see it in my games.

+1 Keen flaming burst Falchion (+4 equivalent weapon) would - as it crits always, especially with power critical - deal

4d4 +1d6+1d10+1 +2*bonus damage from feats, str, power attack.

As the suggestion for melee'ers is to use nearly half their money on primary weapon (I don't personally use that much often but that is recommended in PHB2 so I use that as an example), that kind of weapon could be gotten at level 11.

So, let's take 11th level half-orc (I could get MUUUUCH worse for CL 11 if taking orc or ogre ((which isn't normally too great but awesome for this)) but I will stick to core races) barbarian with STR of 18+2(race)+2(levels)+4(item)+6(rage). So STR mod of +11 (and don't start on 18 base STR. If I were to optimize I would have ogre barbarian with reckless rage but I will use this to get something I might actually play).

On two-handed weapon it is +16 modifier. Then, we add +2 from greater magic weapon (yes, that is cast in any half-optimized party in which this kind of crit rules apply). Then we proceed to add power attack damage and I - experience from making similar build just 2 days ago for orc barbarian 11, 32 pb - think that power attacking for 3 is quite decent so +6 to damage. We double this (as we crit) so we get damage of
4d4+1d6+1d10+44 on the weapon's damage on crit (which it is on nearly every hit). ((For those too lazy to count, average 63 damage on level 11))



EDIT:

Just out of curiocity I actually wanted to try optimized with ogre ECL 11: Str 18+11(race+levels)+4(item)+6(reckless rage) for 39 so +14 str which is +21 when 2 handed. Then the said 6 for power attack and 2 for GMW equal to
6d6+1d6+1d10+42+4+12 (average 88 damage on a crit, ecl 11 and this is REALLY mean if you have a crit range of 12-20). Naturally this is something we propably wouldn't see in actual game...

[ishi]

Letting them stack is most definitely not broken. Let's say you have a Keen weapon, and are considering taking Improved Critical as your next feat.

The boost to expected damage output that you get from the Improved Critical is (under most circumstances) the same as the increase in expected damage you got from Keen. Why would the second one be broken if the first was not, if they do the exact same thing?

Pegaos989's Ogre only increases his expected damage by 13% over what he would've had at 15-20 crit range, even assuming he's hitting on all 12-14 attack rolls.

[Saithis Bladewing]

It ain't broke



*CoughSCYTHECough.*

[Fizban]

Hmm, let's see.... standard crit on 20, so 19-20 with keen, so 18-20 with improved crit as well. Okay, it might be pretty often, but you still have to confirm it, which many people don't seem to realize. Unless you use dolorous blow or bless weapon, but those are specific spells that should not matter to this argument.

[Catharsis]

The scythe should by all means be an improvised weapon, and suck in combat. Why it has such usable stats and is considered a martial weapon is far beyond me.

As for stacking keen effects: The potential for abuse appears to be huge, so I can see why 3.5 disallows stacking. I can't think of a simple compromise between full stacking and no stacking, so I guess you'd either have to go with 3.5 or make an anti-abuse agreement with your players...

My Paragon of Finesse prestige class even goes far beyond the effect of stacked keen and improved critical. However, there are several counterbalancing restrictions, such as the requirement for a less-than-twohanded weapon (no double Power Attacks and 1.5 * Str bonus) to be wielded with finesse (so Str maxing is not beneficial). The link is in my sig.

[Halcyon_Dax]

The rule for crit chance multiplying states that THE AMOUNT OF NUMBERS that will result in a crit is what is multiplied.

hence: 18-20 is 3 numbers 18, 19, and 20.

double it with keen and it is 6 numbers. 15,16,17,18,19,20

If improved critical caused a tripling it would be 9 numbers or 12-20. Not TOOO broken, but pretty damn close to 50% crit rate (its 45%).

In my opinion if you have both you should get the multiplyer from one and -1 from the other, for example, on an 18-20 weapon keen would take it to 15-20 and imp crit would take it to 14-20. (35% crit rate)

[Jack Mann]

The scythe should by all means be an improvised weapon, and suck in combat. Why it has such usable stats and is considered a martial weapon is far beyond me.

Scythes actually were used as weapons at one point. In Poland, in the 18th and 19th century, they were often used by by peasants. However, they weren't used as-is. The blade would be removed and then put back on straight with the blade, turning it into a makeshift halberd. They were reasonably effective in that manner, however.

More pertinent, scythes (in the traditional angled assembly) were often described as the weapons of mythological beings like Death and Father Time (as the sickle was the weapon of Cronus). From mythology, it passed into fantasy, and thence into fantasy-inspired games like Dungeons and Dragons.

[Pegasos989]

If improved critical caused a tripling it would be 9 numbers or 12-20. Not TOOO broken, but pretty damn close to 50% crit rate (its 45%).

But remember that 1s wouldn't ever hit so crittin on 12+ would actually be 50% rate for threats.

If we assume you hit with 10+, 81% of your hits are threats. Add power critical to confirm on 6+ and 57% of your hits (those for which the intial attack roll succeeds) deal double damage for the cost of +1 enchantment and 2 feats. that is 57% extra damage for the cost of +1 enchantment and 2 feats.

Naturally, that is assuming that it hits on 10+. Sure, if you hit on 2+, it is 50% threat range but 95% of those are confirmed, so not much better...

If you only hit on 12+, 100% but less of them are confirmed so it is not that dramatically diffrent.

If you only hit on 15+... why are you on melee again?

Anyways, as it was shown, allowing them to stack would give over 50% total increase in damage in nearly any conditions and I can't think of how that could not be broken for 2 feats and a +1 enchantment equivalent...


EDIT: All that math didn't include extra damage from crit only stuff, such as burst enchantments, some feats...

[Catharsis]

All that math didn't include extra damage from crit only stuff, such as burst enchantments, some feats...
Yeah, but also consider that much of an average character's damage comes from extra dice, e.g. from sneak attacks, "flaming" qualities etc, which don't get multiplied. The combo only really displays its brokenness when applied to two-handed barbarian cheese.

And without a really large crit range, flaming burst weapons are much less damaging than e.g. flaming frost weapons, unless I'm forgetting something.

[Pegasos989]

And without a really large crit range, flaming burst weapons are much less damaging than e.g. flaming frost weapons, unless I'm forgetting something.

You can say "without great crit range, flaming frost is better than flaming burst" but then again, you can say "for average wizard, power attack is a terrible feat" and it doesn't make PA a terrible feat as feats (and skills, and enchantments, and...) are taken by those who benefit the most from it.

But to tell the truth, for the said character (and any with x2 crit) the bursts aren't that awesome as they do average of 5.5 damage while flaming frost does 7 average damage on each hit.

[bosssmiley]

You could make them only partially stack. That is, having both first doubles your crit rate (say from 20 to 19-20), then adds a further one?

(This way you don't get stupid 11-20 critical rates, but you still get something from having both.)

I like this. My only meaningful contribution to this discussion is to note that Upper_Krust has some interesting thoughts on the matter (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon1.2.htm).

[Latronis]

Actually i believe it was falchion wielding weapon masters that was the biggest problem with them stacking.

I still maintain that its hardly broken esp. when anything that isnt an animal or humanoid is immune to them.

Besides that thematically the two work on different principles and should stack if you can find a more appropiate balance.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually i believe it was falchion wielding weapon masters that was the biggest problem with them stacking.
Nope, scythe Weaponmasters were Teh Brokenz. I had one that criticalled between 9 and 20 for a x6. When you can one-shot a Balor at sub-epic levels more than 50% of the time without a vorpal weapon, you've broken the game.

I still maintain that its hardly broken esp. when anything that isnt an animal or humanoid is immune to them.Um, it works on everything except undead and (most) constructs.


Besides that thematically the two work on different principles and should stack if you can find a more appropiate balance.
They used to stack, in 3.0. They changed it because there was just so much brokenness with it.

[ishi]

Um, it works on everything except undead and (most) constructs.


...and elementals and oozes and plants, but that still leaves a lot of creatures...

[Fax Celestis]

...and elementals and oozes and plants, but that still leaves a lot of creatures...


Right, right. Basically, if it doesn't have organs, you can't crit it. But still, that's a lot of stuff that's still there.

[The Clown]

They work two diffent ways. Its 8,000 gold, and one feat with aprerequiset of a +8 BAB. It isn't broken.



Nope, scythe Weaponmasters were Teh Brokenz. I had one that criticalled between 9 and 20 for a x6.


Where is that PrC?

[Captain van der Decken]

But, as far as I know, there is no 3.5 equivelant to WM, so you should be fine really.

[Fax Celestis]

Where is that PrC?
Sword and Fist, I believe. Could be wrong: it's been a while.

It's also in NWN: SoU/HotU.

[Fax Celestis]

But, as far as I know, there is no 3.5 equivelant to WM, so you should be fine really.
It technically became the Kensai, but I'm not buying it.

[Proven_Paradox]

I did both falchion and scythe weapon masters on NWN, and they were both pretty insane. Almost as powerful as that game's clerics. *rimshot*

Since Weapon Master has been (sort of) taken out, I don't think having the two feats stack would be THAT broken, though, as stated, Scythes would be pretty nasty with that, and falchions would have enough of a critical range to make some DMs question such a rule.

I dunno. For me, it would partially depend on the weapon that someone wants to do this with. I'd imagine that most of the time, if someone really wants this to happen, they'd be using weapons that would be pushing broken with that feat and enchantment stacking.

[Dicemaster]

As long as you don't allow vorpal weapons, I don't see a problem with keen/IC stacking. 18-20/x2 weapons actually need it to be on par with equivalent 19-20/x2 ones, and D&D is unbalanced already towards casters.

I never had issues with it in 3.0, though the DM needs (as always) to be careful. Scythe Masters are cheese, but then again, that's the WM's fault.

[Malek]

The maximum crit is with an 18-20 weapon. with keen and imp. crit. it gets as low as 12-20.
Actually with Weapon Master PrC you could go as low as 10-20...

[IonizedChicken]

OK, just to note something about probability -- adding anything to a critical threat range can have unbalancing results, as it's 3/2 as probable for a 18-20/x4 weapon to crit over a 19-20/x4 weapon, but only 7/6 as probable for a 14-20/x2 weapon to crit over a 15-20/x2 weapon.

That said, I think the most balanced way to combine both critical-altering abilities is multiplying the original threat range by 2.5 instead of 3, and then rounding down/up according to taste (it's only a 1/40 difference, nothing to get excited about).