Could Celia be disbarred?

[pendell]

A number of people have expressed the desire to kill Celia. I have an alternate solution:
Is it possible she's guilty of legal malpractice because of the way she misrepresented Haley in the negotiation with the Thieves' Guild, especially when Haley had not asked Celia to represent her? Could she be disbarred? I suspect that would bring home the 'bad girl' message home in a way that simply cutting off her head would not.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Firewind]

Nah most people can't stand Celia because she's this arc's Scrappy. Depending on who you ask there is a scrappy in each arc (depending on who you ask):

Haley/Belkar's group: Celia, Crystal
Roy/Afterlife: Eugene, I personally find Roy's achon annoying but I would call it a scrappy, Roy
Elan/Durkon/V: Kabuta, Therkla (though I know someone who will kill me for saying this, some people have expressed extreme dislike for her)

[EyethatBinds]

I prefer to see her die in a fire. I just can't stand uppity self righteous morons who not only impose their own morality on others but constantly attempt to prove their own intelligence the be vastly superior in every aspect.

Basically I would kill me if I ever met me.

[John Campbell]

I don't think it's logically possible for Celia to be disbarred, because I don't think she's ever been enbarred in the first place. She's still only a law student. And given that she's spending her time on the Prime Material forcing her dead boyfriend's friends to deal with idiot plots instead of going to class, I'm not sure she can even be considered that anymore.

[Zeful]

I prefer to see her die in a fire. I just can't stand uppity self righteous morons who not only impose their own morality on others but constantly attempt to prove their own intelligence the be vastly superior in every aspect.

Basically I would kill me if I ever met me.

Then you might want to keep yourself away from mirrors and any form of recording equipment.

[David Argall]

Assuming Celia could be disbarred, it's not clear there is a case against her.
The first problem is whether Haley is properly her client. A good case can be made that her client is Roy, and thus she owes no duty to Haley. And since stealing somebody else's money for the benefit of her client [and getting away with it] is to the benefit of her client, she gets an award from the bar, not rejection.
Even if we assume Haley is her client, we have to ask if her actions can reasonably be seen as hostile to Haley's interests. Mere stupidity does not qualify here. She needs to be shown to actively have worked against her client's interests. A bad deal with her client's best interests at heart is not grounds for disbarment.

[GSFB]

It depends entirely on the local bar association rules, court rules, and procedural statutes in her present jurisdiction - which, by the way, is not her native plane, so she may not even be able to practice law here at all.

Did she have pro hoc vice status in Azure City?

[Finwe]

Assuming Celia could be disbarred, it's not clear there is a case against her.
The first problem is whether Haley is properly her client. A good case can be made that her client is Roy, and thus she owes no duty to Haley. And since stealing somebody else's money for the benefit of her client [and getting away with it] is to the benefit of her client, she gets an award from the bar, not rejection.
Even if we assume Haley is her client, we have to ask if her actions can reasonably be seen as hostile to Haley's interests. Mere stupidity does not qualify here. She needs to be shown to actively have worked against her client's interests. A bad deal with her client's best interests at heart is not grounds for disbarment.

I am not familiar with what generally constitutes grounds for disbarment, but consider this:

1. Having negotiated Haley's employment contract, we can safely say that Celia was indeed representing Haley.

2. Celia negotiated the contract without Haley's consent or knowledge. (Not really THAT bad, actually)

3. Celia deliberately withheld information about the contract in order to get Haley to sign it.

4. Celia deliberately used the contract in order to extract money from Haley towards her own goals.


Consider this analogy: you are a landscaper. Your lawyer calls you up and tells you that she's found a great job for you, and that she's already gotten the contract ready! Eagerly, you meet with her. She tells you about your benefits, your salary, etc. Finding them acceptable, you sign the contract, excited to begin your new job. On your first day of work, your employer informs you that, as per the contract, you'll spend your first two months working on your lawyer's land, for no pay, and you'll have to pay for any supplies you use.

[GSFB]

That's not a good analogy. Celia did not negotiate for her own personal gain, but acted in the manner she genuinely thought would be best for all parties. If anything, she is a meddlesome interloper, but she is not a con artist out to take advantage of Haley.

[kusje]

That's not a good analogy. Celia did not negotiate for her own personal gain, but acted in the manner she genuinely thought would be best for all parties. If anything, she is a meddlesome interloper, but she is not a con artist out to take advantage of Haley.


Roy is her boyfriend. Raising Roy is for her own personal gain.

[Finwe]

That's not a good analogy. Celia did not negotiate for her own personal gain, but acted in the manner she genuinely thought would be best for all parties. If anything, she is a meddlesome interloper, but she is not a con artist out to take advantage of Haley.

The only difference between the two scenarios is that in my scenario, the lawyer has acted for personal gain, rather than to satisfy her morals. A lawyer's job is NOT to negotiate a contract that's best for all parties, or one that furthers her morals. It to get the best possible contract for their client.

In both cases:

1. The lawyer negotiates a contract that appears beneficial to her client.

2. The lawyer inserts a clause into the contract, which forces her client to provide something she wants.

3. The lawyer does not inform her client about it.


It doesn't really matter what purpose the lawyer is channeling your money into. She has still screwed you in order to further her own goals. Whether for charity or profit, it's still unethical.

[The Minx]

Just to point out, Celia clearly referred to Haley as her "client" when she said she wanted to negotiate her reinstatement in the Guild. It might be that Haley really is her client, or Celia just being used to speaking in legalese, of course. If it is the latter, there is no problem whatsoever (at least not something that could get her disbarred). If it is the former, then Finwe is correct (unless the regulations that pertain to lawyers in the Stickverse are really different from those in our own universe).

[MickJay]

For me the whole situation with the contract and the way the protagonists go about it is a rather poor plot device, it doesn't really make much sense.

Celia never before showed such jarring self-righteousness (but okay, this can be character development), Haley is more naive and far less assertive than usual (perhaps stress did that to her, fine), but I still don't know why Celia thought she could make a contract that would automatically bind Haley in the first place, why Hank accepted this assumption and even more so why Haley decided to accept Celia as her legal representative even after she learned just in how deep a bog that puts her. Heck, even if my own lawer prepared a document, it still wouldn't be binding me unless I signed it. I'd stop playing along the moment I realised that an agreement I haven't even read yet was putting me in trouble, and I'd at least demand renegotiation of terms.

[Texas Jedi]

Celia became Haley's lawyer at the trial when she defended the OotS. She represented all of them. Celia has since become Haley's lawyer even though the group split up. Celia still represented each individual person on the defense. Since we have not seen Haley dismiss Celia as her legal council Celia is still her lawyer.

In other words until Haley fires Celia from being her lawyer Celia will be her lawyer for as long as Celia still practices law. The precedent (Celia representing Haley) at the trial still carries over until such a time that either A) Celia is dismissed B) Celia is disbarred from ever practicing law.

[MickJay]

Assuming law works like this in OOTS world (lawyers become permanent after one use unless their lawyering is turned off manually), having someone who isn't even a real lawyer represent you once is still not the same as giving that person unlimited power to sign contracts on your behalf. I find it difficult to imagine that a sane person would accept such arrangement and just play along like Haley did.

[Optimystik]

What would she be disbarred from? She's not a lawyer yet, according to Hinjo.

[pendell]

She's successfully argued a case at trial and has just negotiated a contract. By US law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paralegal#United_States_4), these are things only attorneys can do, not paralegals.

She's practicing law. She's actually a paralegal rather than a full lawyer. I dunno how paralegals are licensed vis-a-vis real lawyers, but she's got to have some kind of license to stand in front of a court and act as defense counsel, and if she's got such a license it can be revoked for unethical behavior. I argue that negotiating a contract on behalf of a client that is in your own best interest rather than the client's -- e.g., using the client's money to pay off your debts (if you caused needless deaths, that is YOUR debt, not your clients) -- is reprehensible ethically and Celia should be liable to some kind of disciplinary action for what she did, ranging from a stern lecture up to suspension of whatever license paralegals hold.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Expulsion from the Plane of Air university might come under this.

[enarch3t]

First off, there is no contract. There cannot be a "meeting of the minds" if one party is not privy to all the facts and conditions of the contract. Therefore, the contract is not valid. No negotiation or contract can be valid if any information is concealed at the time of the signing from one of the parties involved.

[hamishspence]

If it was all down in the conract and Haley read it but missed it in all the legalese, still signed. As Asmodeus put it "Read the fine print" :smallamused:

If Celia read the contract to haley, missing out salient points, before she signed, then invalid.

remeber just because it wouldn't work in real world doesn't mean it wouldn't in D&D. Kolyaruts punish those who break agreements, even if just verbal. The Contract of Nephtas magic item which punishes those who break an agreement, wouldn't necessarily follow perfect Contract Law.

[pendell]

As far as I can tell from the strip, Haley hasn't signed anything; Celia signed on behalf of the party. This is something Celia had no business doing, nor could she , not being a lawyer.

What I don't understand is why Haley is acting as if the treaty is binding when it isn't. Celia deliberately misled Haley to the terms until such time as it was no longer possible to kill Bozzak in a round.

Be that as it may, there are some things to consider on the other side of the ledger:

1) Celia *did* save Haley's life from Bozzak and Crystal a few short panels ago. Let's not forget that.

2) Celia did get this entire ball of wax rolling out of Azure City. If not for her, Haley and Belkar might have stayed there forever.

So let's not be too hard on the person who just saved Haley's life, and may have made it possible to save Roy in a few dozen strips instead of a few hundred.

Nor do I have a problem with her using negotiation as an alternative to violence.

What I take exception to is the harsh terms. She could have gotten Haley a better deal. She also could have fully apprised Haley of the terms. Instead , she chose to screw her friend to uphold her own principles. And any principles that include 'is okay to betray those trusting in you' need revision, IMO.

Belkar the chaotic evil monster gets what Celia the lawful good paragon does not; team-mates look out for each other.

And until Celia learns that lesson I think she needs to return to university.

Which is what I suspect this arc has been written to allow. If Celia was still a sympathetic character, there's no reason she couldn't become a permanent party member. That is no longer the case.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

I seem to recall Roy pointing this out to Miko in Shojo's throne room. Which makes me wonder if this book is paralleling Paladin blues in some ways.

Maybe Celia will be on the cover?

[Berserk Monk]

Death or Roy breaking up with her so she has no reason to be in the comic. That's what I want.

[Optimystik]

If it was all down in the conract and Haley read it but missed it in all the legalese, still signed. As Asmodeus put it "Read the fine print" :smallamused:

Are you suggesting that Haley wouldn't read the fine print on something?


If Celia read the contract to haley, missing out salient points, before she signed, then invalid.

Tell that to Hank, he certainly seems to think it's valid.


remeber just because it wouldn't work in real world doesn't mean it wouldn't in D&D. Kolyaruts punish those who break agreements, even if just verbal. The Contract of Nephtas magic item which punishes those who break an agreement, wouldn't necessarily follow perfect Contract Law.

Remember also (before you get too technical) that OotS is based on D&D; it doesn't use D&D rules exclusively (e.g. Chlorine elementals.)

[GSFB]

I haven't read the Giant's bio or anything. Is he a lawyer? Should we expect him to know about things like this? It took me an entire semester in a legal profession and responsibility class to get a basic grip on what constitutes practicing law in just this one legal system.

So Celia is doing things that may or may not be kosher. So what?

Just about every tv show about lawyers or cops is full of crap. I can't stand to watch garbage like Law and Order or CSI any of that junk because I invariably end up yelling at the tv "oh my gawd, what the heck are those writers smoking?!?"

Now keep in mind, that is a tv show that revolves around the law every episode. It has a staff of writers and plenty of people to do research. It even has technical advisors who claim to have some understanding of the legal system. And it still screws up.

OotS, on the other hand, is not about the law. It is about a fantasy world where elves shoot fireballs at dragons and elemental beings from another plane of reality occasionally make a few jokes about lawyers in between lightning bolts. OotS I can forgive for not thoroughly answering questions about jurisdiction and professional ethics. Giant isn't trying to earn a living by foisting pseudo-legal idiocy on an unsuspecting public. He's trying to tell a fun story about stick figures who save the universe from destruction, and once in a while a lawyer joke creeps in. Meh.

So I'm not going to bother trying to analyze Celia's ability to practice law - or not. I'm just going to take it for what it is and focus on laughing at the whacky antics while hoping the good guys whoop the bad guys, get the girls, and ride off into the sunset.

You should, too.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Has anybody else brought up the fact that Celia apparently hasn't attended classes in several months? Even if that's not grounds for expulsion, she's probably missed enough exams to flunk out of Law School.



So Celia is doing things that may or may not be kosher.

Wait, when did she eat pork? Isn't she a vegetarian?

[Avilan the Grey]

As far as I can tell from the strip, Haley hasn't signed anything; Celia signed on behalf of the party. This is something Celia had no business doing, nor could she , not being a lawyer.

What I don't understand is why Haley is acting as if the treaty is binding when it isn't. Celia deliberately misled Haley to the terms until such time as it was no longer possible to kill Bozzak in a round.


This is what bugs me. But again, it feels likte Plot-induced Stupidity (not on Celias part, she's hopeless, but on Haleys).

As far as I see it, Haley and Belkar could slaughter the rest of the Guild without breaking any contract whatsoever.

[Senex]

While we're handing out punishments for plot-induced stupidity, let's revoke Roy's MBA certificate. His manner of demise certainly indicates that he doesn't deserve to own one.

[the_tick_rules]

She's a good girlfriend, but not so great an adventrer.

[derfenrirwolv]

I doubt it.

If ANY group has a "anything you do is legal if your life is on the line" clause, it would be lawyers.

[vegetalss4]

I doubt it.

If ANY group has a "anything you do is legal if your life is on the line" clause, it would be lawyers.

or adventures:smallwink:

[The Minx]

What I don't understand is why Haley is acting as if the treaty is binding when it isn't. Celia deliberately misled Haley to the terms until such time as it was no longer possible to kill Bozzak in a round.

Breaking the deal at this point would mean they don't get the Guild's help raising Roy. Also, though the deal is not binding, the Guild certainly would think of it as such.


What I take exception to is the harsh terms. She could have gotten Haley a better deal. She also could have fully apprised Haley of the terms. Instead , she chose to screw her friend to uphold her own principles. And any principles that include 'is okay to betray those trusting in you' need revision, IMO.

She was pretty desperate to get the deal through, both to avoid/reverse the killings and to get Roy back, and she probably thought it was not worth risking Haley saying "no way". I don't know whether she could have gotten a better deal, I guess I'll file that under "insufficient data".

[Fluff With Fork]

Just about every tv show about lawyers or cops is full of crap. I can't stand to watch garbage like Law and Order or CSI any of that junk because I invariably end up yelling at the tv "oh my gawd, what the heck are those writers smoking?!?"



You should watch The Wire, it is as accurate as you're going to get outside of a Crim Pro casebook.


Though I have to say, I'd much rather watch L&O with an angry law student stricken with a serious case of Baby Lawyer Syndrome than any show ever that mentions computers with a tech-savvy person. Those folks can nerdrage about implausible 'hackings' and 'downloadables' and 'core-memory-leak processor dumps' and whathaveyou like nobody's business.

In addition, the most egregious insult to real lawyers in a television show goes to Eli Stone. That show will make you appreciate the basic attempt at legal plausibility that L&O will throw your way.



As a bunch of people have said: No, she can't be disbarred, she's practicing law without a license and will likely never be sworn in to an association from which she could be disbarred.

[WJLIII3]

You know, as long as we're judging her actions from the legal standpoint of U.S. law, we should note Catastrophe law. That states, roughly, that if, at any time, the commander of an aerial vehicle finds their vessel in danger, they are subject to no law but their own judgment until such time as the vessel is repaired or crash-landed. That is, they can do whatever they want, however they want, and no law in any book applies to them in the least. Could not Celia, as a flying creature, be subject to this law at any time she, herself, as an aerial vehicle (so to speak) is in danger?

[Finwe]

any show ever that mentions computers with a tech-savvy person. Those folks can nerdrage about implausible 'hackings' and 'downloadables' and 'core-memory-leak processor dumps' and whathaveyou like nobody's business.



The problem is, sometimes they don't even try, and just spout random techno-jargon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni_rAamVP2s). One might surmise that if this woman needed to walk down the street to buy a jug of milk, she'd design, build and intricately decorate a triple-decker pogo-stick with storage space, which she would then use to travel a few blocks to the local 7-11.

[snoopy13a]

One has to be admitted to the bar before they can be disbarred. Celia is a law student, not an attorney.

[Optimystik]

Though I have to say, I'd much rather watch L&O with an angry law student stricken with a serious case of Baby Lawyer Syndrome than any show ever that mentions computers with a tech-savvy person. Those folks can nerdrage about implausible 'hackings' and 'downloadables' and 'core-memory-leak processor dumps' and whathaveyou like nobody's business.

Oh god, you just reminded me of this Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/07/16/) dealing with the recent horribad Die Hard movie.


As a bunch of people have said: No, she can't be disbarred, she's practicing law without a license and will likely never be sworn in to an association from which she could be disbarred.

The ending of Patch Adams, where the Board of Medicine decides whether he should graduate, comes to mind.

[Finwe]

The ending of Patch Adams, where the Board of Medicine decides whether he should graduate, comes to mind.

Yeah, this could potentially be bad for Celia's future in law if news of her actions becomes widespread. Not having passed the bar, she can't be disbarred for anything, but her school might not be too impressed by her actions, and she might loose future clients if they hear about this.

[Quorothorn]

Breaking the deal at this point would mean they don't get the Guild's help raising Roy. Also, though the deal is not binding, the Guild certainly would think of it as such.

...And we should respect their view for what reason, exactly? :smallwink:

[Underground]

Well, I think that it is Haley's fault, partially, because she accepted the whole thing without checking the details. Even if she knew Celia is incompetent (in respect to real life, not in respect to law).

OTOH Celia has also made an obvious error. You cannot force your own views upon the client. Just because she thinks its OK to spend the money of her client doesnt mean the client would agree. At very least she would have had to ask Haley about her opinion.


I don't think it's logically possible for Celia to be disbarred, because I don't think she's ever been enbarred in the first place. She's still only a law student. And given that she's spending her time on the Prime Material forcing her dead boyfriend's friends to deal with idiot plots instead of going to class, I'm not sure she can even be considered that anymore. She's no student anymore. She had already finished university when she met the OotS the first time.

[Kish]

She had already finished university when she met the OotS the first time.
And she went back to school to study law afterward.

[HandofShadows]

Yeah, this could potentially be bad for Celia's future in law if news of her actions becomes widespread. Not having passed the bar, she can't be disbarred for anything, but her school might not be too impressed by her actions, and she might loose future clients if they hear about this.

Or being such a Lawfull Good, it might make her MORE attractive to some clients.

[David Argall]

You know, as long as we're judging her actions from the legal standpoint of U.S. law, we should note Catastrophe law. That states, roughly, that if, at any time, the commander of an aerial vehicle finds their vessel in danger, they are subject to no law but their own judgment until such time as the vessel is repaired or crash-landed. That is, they can do whatever they want, however they want, and no law in any book applies to them in the least. Could not Celia, as a flying creature, be subject to this law at any time she, herself, as an aerial vehicle (so to speak) is in danger?
Catastrophe law refers to the operation of the vehicle, not to its interactions with others. As a vehicle in emergency, Celia would have authority to drop any passengers, or to crash land in what seems the most suitable way, but not to shoot lightning at people watching.
And the commander remains subject to the courts and other commanders. It's just that appeal to these superiors is routinely effectively impossible and undesirable, and the standard of proof is shifted way in favor of the commander. However, if Celia was forced to choose between dumping a passenger or 50 lb of gold, she could end up charged with murder for dumping the passenger.

[Optimystik]

She's no student anymore. She had already finished university when she met the OotS the first time.

The "university" referred to there was college-level, otherwise known as undergraduate. Law school is a graduate-level course and so always comes after college.


Or being such a Lawfull Good, it might make her MORE attractive to some clients.

Only if they like unethical lawyers. Yeah yeah, oxymoron, I know...

[Wanton Soup]

Roy is her boyfriend. Raising Roy is for her own personal gain.

Plus she avoided becoming Grubwigger's property (to pay for Roylem).

Remember, when it came to paying for Roylem Celia decided that the contract she signed herself was void because she thought it was bringing him back to life.

Yet when *Haley* finds out the unpalatable codas she's been signed up to, Celia (and her fans) all say "well, you should've read it, huh.".

Strange people.

[Kish]

Remember, when it came to paying for Roylem Celia decided that the contract she signed herself
She signed no contract. She was still looking it over when Grubwiggler animated Roy. A case could be made that she verbally committed herself to it before Grubwiggler ever showed it to her, and I wish Grubwiggler--or you, if you want to volunteer to be his legal representative--all the luck in the world arguing that case against Celia in court.

[Finwe]

Or being such a Lawfull Good, it might make her MORE attractive to some clients.

1. Celia's actions were more Chaotic than Lawful.

2. Not all Lawful Good people are pacifists. Most probably wouldn't agree with mass-resurrecting cutthroats and thieves, either.

2. Regardless of alignment, it would take someone who was either stupid or naive to desire a lawyer based on the fact that the lawyer was known to have deceived her clients to serve her own interests. Celia's morals aren't the issue here. The issue is that Celia should can no longer be trusted by her clients, because she has demonstrated a willingness to deceive her clients to further her own interests. Sure, you might agree with her on this one issue, but what happens when your morals differ on something? Would you still want her representing you then? Do you think she'd tell you about it, or just deceive you into a contract that screws you over?

[Optimystik]

She signed no contract. She was still looking it over when Grubwiggler animated Roy. A case could be made that she verbally committed herself to it before Grubwiggler ever showed it to her, and I wish Grubwiggler--or you, if you want to volunteer to be his legal representative--all the luck in the world arguing that case against Celia in court.

Unfortunately, she also handed him the corpse (it was not taken from her), which a savvy lawyer could interpret as implicit acceptance of Grubwiggler's terms. Especially since that was after he quoted her a price.

I'm not saying that she should be on the hook financially (her stupidity is a separate issue, after all,) just that the case isn't quite as open-and-shut as you claim.