You know on this Celia deal...

[Qubanz]

Celia may be insufferably stupid (and at this point a far cry from the original Sylph we first met who zapped Nale for annoying her, and Thog for good measure just because he happened to be tied to Nale.), but I think the one who's really the biggest fool in this newest debacle is HALEY.

Haley has been hanging out with Celia for quite a while now. She knows full well how naive Celia is. And how much of a liability she can be. And yet when Celia announces she has a 'deal' Haley still lowers her bow in the end.

Personally if I where hanging out with Celia, and she announced she'd have a deal I'd ignore her. I'd have shot Bozzok, then shot Hank, and if Celia had any complaints about that, I'd make it quite clear I would shoot her too. And then I'd go look for Crystal, and given she's been conveniently indisposed, get rid of her as well. Because its quite obvious that Celia has absolutely no clue what she's doing. That's how she lost Roy's body in the first place. And if I where Haley at this point I'd have figured that out by now, and not listen to a single thing the Sylph thinks up. (And if she decides to go back to the plane of air because of that, that'd be all the better.)

Haley is kind of like a person who knows the puppy isn't housebroken, yet doesn't put down newspapers, then blames the puppy.

Sorry Starshine, but you brought this one on your self. You should have known better and not listened to Celia.

[elonin]

Normally Haley does better with understanding people, but in that case she fumbled on her sense motive check. I was fully expecting that when Celia was telling her about the terms that she'd call that a canceled deal and start attacking. Most of the guild is/was dead.

[tcrudisi]

Celia may be insufferably stupid (and at this point a far cry from the original Sylph we first met who zapped Nale for annoying her, and Thog for good measure just because he happened to be tied to Nale.), but I think the one who's really the biggest fool in this newest debacle is HALEY.

Haley has been hanging out with Celia for quite a while now. She knows full well how naive Celia is. And how much of a liability she can be. And yet when Celia announces she has a 'deal' Haley still lowers her bow in the end.

Personally if I where hanging out with Celia, and she announced she'd have a deal I'd ignore her. I'd have shot Bozzok, then shot Hank, and if Celia had any complaints about that, I'd make it quite clear I would shoot her too. And then I'd go look for Crystal, and given she's been conveniently indisposed, get rid of her as well. Because its quite obvious that Celia has absolutely no clue what she's doing. That's how she lost Roy's body in the first place. And if I where Haley at this point I'd have figured that out by now, and not listen to a single thing the Sylph thinks up. (And if she decides to go back to the plane of air because of that, that'd be all the better.)

Haley is kind of like a person who knows the puppy isn't housebroken, yet doesn't put down newspapers, then blames the puppy.

Sorry Starshine, but you brought this one on your self. You should have known better and not listened to Celia.

Hindsight is 20/20. If you had made this post after 620 but prior to 621, I would be applauding you. But to make it after Celia once again screws up? That's just looking back and doing wishful thinking.

[The Tygre]

Bah, I wouldn't worry too much about Haley. I have high doubts that she'll be honest about how much she's stolen since she left the guild, or what she considers stealing. The dragon horde for instance: is it really stealing if it was just lying there in a cave? Plus most of it was destroyed, so can it really be counted as an asset anymore? Besides, Celia's a pain in the ass, nothing more. She's too important to be killed right now, too trivial to really slow Haley down. Although I find myself siding with a lot of readers, Celia fans and haters alike. Celia either needs to man up or get down. She can drop her idealistic little pacifist act, or she can head back home and wait out the storm that is getting Roy back. Either way, she's proving to be a really heavy liability and I can count the number of times she's been inutile during this fiasco on one hand. Personally, I'd head home. More screen-time for the real PCs...

[Qubanz]

Hindsight is 20/20. If you had made this post after 620 but prior to 621, I would be applauding you. But to make it after Celia once again screws up? That's just looking back and doing wishful thinking.

I just registered today actually. But was anyone honestly surprised Celia screwed up?

I would have stopped trusting the Sylph after she went to Greysky city, after being told not to. And losing Roy's body in the process.

I think my argument stands just fine. And had I registered earlier I would have made it about when Celia lost Roy's body. Which is well before 620. I know I wouldn't listen to anything Celia said after that. In fact on this particular issue I'd also remind her that *I* was the one actually willing to put in half an effort to safe her ass, and that the people she is ressurrecting where both trying to kill them and are ruthless criminals. Way to think of the doggies Celia, when they ressurrect the guy who runs the dogfighting ring.

Sure Haley might go back on her word about the money, but by the time she makes off with whatever loot she takes in compensation, and its time for a hasty retreat, the thieves guild will be ressurrected and Bozzok and co. will be trying to kill her again. All courtesy not just of Celia, but of her being naive enough to listening to Celia.

I mean, a stupid person is one thing, but marching behind someone who's known to be out of her depth is even more foolish.

[Qubanz]

In fact come to think of it, Haley shows poor judgement in another case too. Such as not wanting Belkar healed, in spite of the fact she's in very dangerous territory where she might have needed him. I mean, what is she? Lawful Good? Unless you're a paladin (In which case the thieves guild would probably count as a 'target rich environment' more then a threat anyway. Since paladins are considerably better at fighting.) need would trump ethics in that case.

Good thing for her that cleric decided he wasn't to keen on dying.

Celia may be out of her depth far as adventuring goes, but Haley is perhaps out of hers far as leadership goes.

[Finwe]

Celia may be insufferably stupid (and at this point a far cry from the original Sylph we first met who zapped Nale for annoying her, and Thog for good measure just because he happened to be tied to Nale.), but I think the one who's really the biggest fool in this newest debacle is HALEY.

Haley has been hanging out with Celia for quite a while now. She knows full well how naive Celia is. And how much of a liability she can be. And yet when Celia announces she has a 'deal' Haley still lowers her bow in the end.

Personally if I where hanging out with Celia, and she announced she'd have a deal I'd ignore her. I'd have shot Bozzok, then shot Hank, and if Celia had any complaints about that, I'd make it quite clear I would shoot her too. And then I'd go look for Crystal, and given she's been conveniently indisposed, get rid of her as well. Because its quite obvious that Celia has absolutely no clue what she's doing. That's how she lost Roy's body in the first place. And if I where Haley at this point I'd have figured that out by now, and not listen to a single thing the Sylph thinks up. (And if she decides to go back to the plane of air because of that, that'd be all the better.)

Haley is kind of like a person who knows the puppy isn't housebroken, yet doesn't put down newspapers, then blames the puppy.

Sorry Starshine, but you brought this one on your self. You should have known better and not listened to Celia.

Wiping out the thieves' guild was not a viable option: if they had, the city would have been taken over by an even more evil organization, something Haley's conscience would not let her do. But Haley was foolish for not reading the agreement first, knowing Celia's past record...

[Rakim Avishot]

...Personally, I'd head home. More screen-time for the real PCs...

I can't believe all the smack talk going o about Celia. Sure she's messed up multiple times, but so has practically everyone else, including Haley. Celia has definitely evolved into a PC, and should not "head home".:smallannoyed:
...Actually, I just like hearing myself talk.:smallamused: I actually hate Celia's guts. However, I hated her before anyone else, all the way back when she revealed that she didn't even know that humans couldn't shoot lightning from her fingertips, and still, as BRC put it, "smote evil" with Roy

[Larspcus2]

I mean, what is she[Haley]? Lawful Good?

Haley is chaotic good

[The Tygre]

...Actually, I just like hearing myself talk.:smallamused: I actually hate Celia's guts. However, I hated her before anyone else, all the way back when she revealed that she didn't even know that humans couldn't shoot lightning from her fingertips, and still, as BRC put it, "smote evil" with Roy

So you're just hating on us for choosing to hate Celia now, then? That seems understandable and fair, mostly because it means we don't really hate Celia and we're just venting our temporary outrage. Plus veteran haters do have more rights. I long to be part of the group that has always hated Twilight, instead of just hating it now...Still, whatever hatred, permanent or fresh, is good. The hatred will be there for you in the dark, cold night.

[good_lookin_gus]

Haley is chaotic good

Haley is chaotic good-ish. More importantly: what is this? The Gaming board?:smallwink:

[Qubanz]

Well... I guess what I honestly don't get is, if Bozzok is responsible for Celia's father's imprisonment. How can she let ANYTHING come between her and killing him when she has such a great opportunity?

Personally, I wouldn't have stood down at all. But even if I was going to do so I'd have still killed Bozzok, and then said the deal included his being dead. For that matter, the deal would have included Crystals demise too. Crystal may have all the intelligence of a stack of bricks, but she is fanatically determined to kill Haley too after all.

[Kurald Galain]

Normally Haley does better with understanding people, but in that case she fumbled on her sense motive check.
I think Haley was expecting Celia to be incompetent but honest. She was not. Leaving out the part where Haley suddenly owes the guild half a million gold pieces would have made a big difference towards Haley accepting the deal.

[MickJay]

Celia isn't stupid, she may be naive, but not stupid, and the one thing she knows something about is law and contracts. She agreed to terms that would drop Haley in deep trouble as a revenge for not trying to avoid violence. She didn't have problems with doing that, it's clear from her behaviour.

Haley, on the other hand, has been less than her usual clever self when initially accepting the deal, more so perhaps because she trusted Celia not to screw her over so royally. Perhaps she didn't appreciate Celia's self-righteousness enough.

[Trixie]

In fact come to think of it, Haley shows poor judgement in another case too. Such as not wanting Belkar healed, in spite of the fact she's in very dangerous territory where she might have needed him. I mean, what is she? Lawful Good? Unless you're a paladin (In which case the thieves guild would probably count as a 'target rich environment' more then a threat anyway. Since paladins are considerably better at fighting.) need would trump ethics in that case.

Good thing for her that cleric decided he wasn't to keen on dying.

Celia may be out of her depth far as adventuring goes, but Haley is perhaps out of hers far as leadership goes.

Yup, Haley screwed much worse than Celia, and I somehow don't see a storm about it. I wished Belkar conveniently waited one round before she was offed - maybe that would teach her priorities straight :smallannoyed:

[Kioran]

Haley is chaotic good

I'd much rather say she's CN. But that doesn't preclude her from having a conscience. In any case, I would say that, yes, while Celia screwed up, those saying Haley had it coming because she never properly led her band of misfits are probably right.

[Qubanz]

That's how I see it at least.

I think Celia is an utter and complete twit, but the damage she does is because Haley is incapable of keeping her in check, in spite of knowing full well what Celia is like.

I mean its war, the fate of the world is at stake even! If I were Haley would make this very clear to Celia myself. And not as in 'telling her this' but as in telling her that, and that if she wants to stay she needs to do exactly what I say. And that if she doesn't want to, she should leave. And in addition, that if she stays AND disobeys, then considering what is at stake, I'd consider and treat her like an enemy.

That way Celia has the choice. Follow her morals, but stay out of the way. (Going back to the plane of air. Because she actually has that luxury) Or staying, but playing along, which means she is to provide backup lightning when needed. And follow orders. (Also in her favour because they where out to ressurrect Roy.)

[Kurald Galain]

I think Celia is an utter and complete twit, but the damage she does is because Haley is incapable of keeping her in check, in spite of knowing full well what Celia is like.
Actually, it just struck me that when Celia entered the negotiations, she was under direct threat of being killed by Hank and Yor. That's a lot of duress; Celia had to succesfully make a deal or she would be dead now.

[BRC]

To quote another thread which had a great reasoning

It's not merely because she's a pacifist, but because she is deflating the cathartic moments in which our heroes get to shine, and I see that as generally indicative of the tonal dissonance of which I speak.
Celia is kind of Miko, only with a different set of principles and beliefs. While Miko clung to her beliefs despite overwhelming evidence that they were wrong, Celia clings to her principles despite overwhelming evidence that it isn't a good idea right now. But that's not why people hate her. Nobody really minded Celia when she ignored Haley's advice and took roy into the city, Nobody minded when she stuck to her pacifist principles during the fight at Pete's house, nobody minded when she negotiated with hank. Heck, I didn't even see many complaints when she convinced Haley to spare Bozz.

But, the moment you learn she bargained away a good deal of Haley's cash, she is suddenly an idiot, morally rehensable, and the worst thing to happen to the story.


Objectivly, Celia's perspective isn't actually all that bad, damage has been done, so she attempts to undo it. The way she see's it, Haley didn't deserve that money anyway, so it might as well go to a good cause. However, because we, as readers, know why Haley needs to money, and because we sympathize with Haley alot more than with Celia, we see her logic as bad and stupid.
Reading the comic, we see it as an adventuring fantasy setting, where killing things and taking their stuff is a common, reasonable occurence. So when somebody comes up and tries to undo some damage dealt, and implies that stolen money is not earned money in doing so, we feel outraged.

[Berserk Monk]

When Haley first heard about Celia's and Hank's deal, she did not know she would have to give the guild any gold. All she knew was we can get Roy's body back now with the aide of the guild and get a cleric of Loki to raise him. She'd had been stupid not to take the deal. Haley isn't the violent type. She doesn't kill people because it's the fun or easiest thing to do. Hell, Belkar might not even do that anymore. Further more, attacking the leader of your group's girlfriend=bad idea.

[Kroy]

Well... I guess what I honestly don't get is, if Bozzok is responsible for Celia's father's imprisonment. How can she let ANYTHING come between her and killing him when she has such a great opportunity?

Personally, I wouldn't have stood down at all. But even if I was going to do so I'd have still killed Bozzok, and then said the deal included his being dead. For that matter, the deal would have included Crystals demise too. Crystal may have all the intelligence of a stack of bricks, but she is fanatically determined to kill Haley too after all.

Don't you mean Haley?:smalltongue:

[Gilby]

Starting, yes I hate Celia too. Here nor there.
If you want to split hairs...Haley was supposed to per the agreement give up a part of treasure she STOLE. Now if Celia were a good lawyer(hahaha) she could argue that Haley found abandoned treasures. Now if it were abandoned at least real world law states it is fair game. Hence nothing Haley acquired was ever stolen, so she would owe the thieves guild nothing. I mean if you want to split hairs.

Also does power of attorney exists in OOTS? If so did Celia still have it on behalf of the Order? If not Haley is not bound the the treaty/contract.

[Ravenred]

Hmmm... on the deal... if the decision was between further mass-killing now (plus the large-scale carnage of a gang / MOB war to follow), versus a guarantee of security, gaining your immediate objectives (rezzing Roy and reuniting the order) at high financial cost...

... well I can see why Haley would consider the former as being preferable, but unlike Belkar for example, she's not enamoured of killing for its own sake.

Celia, of course, wouldn't consider the first option as being in any way necessary. Whether Haley would actually have knocked the deal back, knowing the long-term consequences, had she known of the GP cost is another matter. The raising of those she'd killed (at own expense) was probably not something Haley would have cared for, but negotation is a two-way street. ;)

[Nerdanel]

Haley knows full well how naive Celia has been, but she also knows that Celia has been out of her element (even if she has been unwilling to learn and ask questions). But now, finally, Celia has gotten to use her law skills, which is supposed to be her area of expertise. And she's Good, so she would do her best in negotiations against the predominantly Evil and fully criminal thieves and defend her Good friend with whom she was braiding each other's hair and talking girl-talk less than an hour ago?

Well no, but is it really such a stretch for Haley to have considered that position?