All the elves are androgynous?

[Hephaestus]

So, back in 611 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) when Belkar gets his mojo turned back on. In the first panel of the second comic, Belkar rips through three rogues in a row, the last of which looks to be an elf.

Now generally, in this comic, male characters have a square (rectangular) body, and females have a curvy bean shaped body. But that elf has a square body, but it's edges of the square are curved.

Based on this, do you think all the elves in OotS are androgynous? Are there any other points in OotS where an elf shows up to see if it's body shape supports this theory?

[Assassin89]

I do not think so because there are two elves with the female body shape.

One is near the tavern of infinite one night stands in #492 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html)

The other is Liran who is present in the flashbacks and #532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

[Lira]

We get to see a lot of elves in Start of Darkness and most of them look fairly androgynous.

[GSFB]

Are we sure the "curvy" elves we have seen were not half-elves?

If they are not, and are in fact clearly gender defined (to us) elves, are they considered weird looking by their own kind? Do other elves view them the way we might view the "gendererific" (PCish term I just made up to describe people who aren't typical "men" or "women") in real life human society?

I mean, say V is female. Then say that, among elves, V is considered an attractive female who is, to other elves, clearly feminine. Would elves view someone like Haley (pre hair cut!), a cute and feminine woman to humans, as some sort of odd Ru Paul type? Or do all humans just look like "Pat" to elves?

It really makes you stop and think!

[AgentPaper]

I do not think so because there are two elves with the female body shape.

One is near the tavern of infinite one night stands in #492 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html)

The other is Liran who is present in the flashbacks and #532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

I don't think it's for sure if those are even elves, actually. Neither of them are from the material plane, and just well might be of a race of all females designed for certain "purposes", which they serve in both scenarios.

[Hephaestus]

Are we sure the "curvy" elves we have seen were not half-elves?

If they are not, and are in fact clearly gender defined (to us) elves, are they considered weird looking by their own kind? Do other elves view them the way we might view the "gendererific" (PCish term I just made up to describe people who aren't typical "men" or "women") in real life human society?

I mean, say V is female. Then say that, among elves, V is considered an attractive female who is, to other elves, clearly feminine. Would elves view someone like Haley (pre hair cut!), a cute and feminine woman to humans, as some sort of odd Ru Paul type? Or do all humans just look like "Pat" to elves?

It really makes you stop and think!
Nope, Half-elves have one pointy ear. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html) The rest of it does make me think though...

[Optimystik]

If you're trying to use body shape to identify V's gender, it's been attempted. His robes defeat that purpose.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Actually, Liran is a female elf with a female body shape. Varsuuvius (or, as Roy refers to him in an early comic, "V-man") is a male elf with a male body shape.

The "robe conceals all" argument is a myth made up by the readership, and I say myth because robed females in the comic all have visible bosoms.

Isn't it possible that the elves have more defined gender roles than the humans do in this comic, and all those male-looking elves are, well, male? :smallannoyed:

[Optimystik]

Actually, Liran is a female elf with a female body shape. Varsuuvius (or, as Roy refers to him in an early comic, "V-man") is a male elf with a male body shape.

The "robe conceals all" argument is a myth made up by the readership, and I say myth because robed females in the comic all have visible bosoms.

Isn't it possible that the elves have more defined gender roles than the humans do in this comic, and all those male-looking elves are, well, male? :smallannoyed:

Uh, you haven't seen a robed female ELF in the comic yet. So V could still be one.

[TheSummoner]

I still think of V as male because even when naked after the dragon incident, what we could see of V's body was square. Unless word of god says otherwise, I'm sticking to it.

[grassy]

Maybe she's just like... I dunno... flat-chested or something...

[TheSummoner]

Still wouldn't explain the square body shape...

[good_lookin_gus]

It is most likely a low charisma score that makes V so androgynous.

[kpenguin]

I don't think it's for sure if those are even elves, actually. Neither of them are from the material plane, and just well might be of a race of all females designed for certain "purposes", which they serve in both scenarios.

Wait... Lirian is from a different plane? Whaaat?

[Kaytara]

Some other elves we've seen:

The blue-haired elf in 238. Partially covered by a cloak and completely unidentifiable.

The blue-haired elf wizard in 130. Short-haired and probably male, but it's robes, so you never know...

The green-haired elf in the bandit camp in 169. Clearly male body shape.

However, most of the elves we've seen are, as mentioned, in SoD and they all follow the 'not very curvy body, but with rounded edges' pattern of that recent one Belkar killed. Their body shapes look like something that can be easily very undefined when dressed in baggy loose robes. We also see a couple of elven robed spellcasters there and they are identical to V in bodyshape.

Also, keep in mind that elves are usually rather slender and waif-like. Many depictions of them go as far as showing them as borderline anorexic. In any case, if you haven't got a lot of body fat, then there just isn't much for those curves to be made of, you know?

But we also need to remember that Rich undoubtedly deliberately made those elves as androgynous as they are, to keep us guessing about V.

I agree with BSFB that the gender roles could easily be differently defined in elven society. V's insensitivity to Roy's change suggests that it might not play that much of a role at all.

Metalogic aside, though, it's most likely that elves are fairly androgynous but, as with humans, some might be a bit bustier than normal, some less so. Lirian would be an example from one end of that scale, Vaarsuvius possibly from the other.

[good_lookin_gus]

Wait... Lirian is from a different plane? Whaaat?

No, of course not. Were that her only appearance then the possibility would be open. But the flashbacks as well as SoD clearly present her as a terrestrial female elf.

[Optimystik]

No, of course not. Were that her only appearance then the possibility would be open. But the flashbacks as well as SoD clearly present her as a terrestrial female elf.

That question was actually sarcasm directed at AgentPaper, who said neither the tavern chick nor Lirian were from the material plane.

I know, sometimes I have trouble spotting it on the internet too :smallwink:

[Azazel]

...Based on this, do you think all the elves in OotS are androgynous? Are there any other points in OotS where an elf shows up to see if it's body shape supports this theory?

I rule that rogueish spandex makes anyone look like a bean.

[Rotipher]

Metalogic aside, though, it's most likely that elves are fairly androgynous but, as with humans, some might be a bit bustier than normal, some less so. Lirian would be an example from one end of that scale, Vaarsuvius possibly from the other.


Or maybe Lirian dressed to emphasize her curves because she's in love with a human, and wanted to appeal to human body-type preferences.

[factotum]

Or maybe Lirian dressed to emphasize her curves because she's in love with a human, and wanted to appeal to human body-type preferences.

Why would she dress like that when she isn't anywhere near said human, though? Also, if you look at her very first appearance in the online comic (strip #276) where she hasn't even met Dorukan she's dressed in the same outfit and has the same bustline (at least as far as can be told through the scribble).

[kpenguin]

That question was actually sarcasm directed at AgentPaper, who said neither the tavern chick nor Lirian were from the material plane.

I know, sometimes I have trouble spotting it on the internet too :smallwink:

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was questioning whether both elves were extraplanar. Thus the "whaaat?"

If I was being sarcastic, it wouldn't have been posed as a question.

[Roderick_BR]

A lot of elves look androgynous in a lot of places. My father at first thought that Legolas, in Lord of the Rings was a woman.... in the MOVIE!
Granted, he just took a quick glance at the time, and watched the whole thing later, but you get an idea.

But I think there had some female elves that looked females. Dunno, would have to check again.

[kpenguin]

Do drow count as elves? I recall that the only remotely androgynous drow, Zz'dtri, was male and all the others who have appeared have been unambiguously female.

Also, how do we count androgyny? Body shape? Eye level?

[Querzis]

Or maybe Lirian dressed to emphasize her curves because she's in love with a human, and wanted to appeal to human body-type preferences.

She didnt love her at first and she met Soon long before she met Durokan! Beside, I really dont get how anyone could buy that «V robe conceal his gender» argument. We saw lots of humans in robe until now and they are always clearly male or clearly female. The robes doesnt change anything.

Anyway, you gotta realize that Rich made up the «V is andorogynous» thing because of the forum. As its been pointed out, all elves in the early strips seemed to have pretty clearly defined gender, especially Lirian. But the Giant realized that then it would just make no sense for V to be andorogynous if no other elf is so most elves in SoD look andorogynous.

Well anyway, as far as I'm concerned, every freaking male elves in any freaking fiction always look andorogynous while female elves usually look like female so yeah.

[Kaytara]

Do drow count as elves? I recall that the only remotely androgynous drow, Zz'dtri, was male and all the others who have appeared have been unambiguously female.

Also, how do we count androgyny? Body shape? Eye level?

All others? I remember one drow, the one who was part of the evil adventuring party. There were others? :smallconfused:


We saw lots of humans in robe until now and they are always clearly male or clearly female. The robes doesnt change anything.


Says who? Robes in general are probably the most gender-concealing kind of clothing, depending how thick and baggy they are. It's very easy to imagine that elves don't have much showing while wearing robes.

You said yourself that we've seen plenty of humans. The thing about humans is that they usually aren't androgynous. Elves are, as the majority of their appearances indicate. (I'm including the ones in SoD as well, obviously.)

[Optimystik]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was questioning whether both elves were extraplanar. Thus the "whaaat?"

If I was being sarcastic, it wouldn't have been posed as a question.

If you were actually questioning that, that's pretty weird. Lirian is very clearly from the material plane.


Why would she dress like that when she isn't anywhere near said human, though? Also, if you look at her very first appearance in the online comic (strip #276) where she hasn't even met Dorukan she's dressed in the same outfit and has the same bustline (at least as far as can be told through the scribble).

Have we ever seen Lirian in robes? I haven't.


She didnt love her at first and she met Soon long before she met Durokan! Beside, I really dont get how anyone could buy that «V robe conceal his gender» argument. We saw lots of humans in robe until now and they are always clearly male or clearly female. The robes doesnt change anything.

Humans aren't elves.

[factotum]

Have we ever seen Lirian in robes? I haven't.


Relevance? I thought this thread was about discussing whether all elves are androgynous, and Lirian clearly isn't--I don't think how she's dressed changes that.

[Optimystik]

Relevance? I thought this thread was about discussing whether all elves are androgynous, and Lirian clearly isn't--I don't think how she's dressed changes that.

The fact that she is well-defined is irrelevant to an androgyny discussion because she doesn't wear clothes that can confuse her gender. That's the relevance.

[Assassin89]

All others? I remember one drow, the one who was part of the evil adventuring party. There were others? :smallconfused:


Another Drow was in the ladies' room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)

As for the other elves, some of the females could be Pettankos (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Pettanko) in appearance only. If the Giant makes fun of calling your attacks and other tropes, Pettanko should be fair game.

[MickJay]

Face it, living beings can be male, female or hermaphroditic, clearly V is the latter. Since he's got a partner, it can be safely assumed that said partner shares V's ambiguity (or universality, if you prefer). It remains to be seen if it is common for elves to reproduce by cross-fertilization, like snails, or not.

ed.: initially I wanted to write "all people", but then someone would nitpick that elves are not people. Plus, some people can be asexual as well. Writing "most of people, in number of which I include elves for the purpose of the argument, may be male, female, hermaphroditic or asexual" I considered unnecessarily wordy, though. ;p

[Optimystik]

Face it, living beings can be male, female or hermaphroditic, clearly V is the latter.

You forgot asexual, e.g. slimes and jellies. Hermaphrodites have sexual characteristics of both genders, asexuals have none.

[Ramidel]

So you're saying V is an ooze?

[Optimystik]

So you're saying V is an ooze?

I can't possibly imagine how you got that out of my post.

[Assassin89]

I can't possibly imagine how you got that out of my post.

slimes and jellies are a type of ooze. What Ramidel is inferring is that you claim that V is asexual. The quickest way to determine an elf's gender is to kick it in a certain area. That or polymorph it to a creature that is not androgynous.

[Lira]

The quickest way to determine an elf's gender is to kick it in a certain area. That or polymorph it to a creature that is not androgynous.Or, you know, you could just ask them. :smalltongue:

[Dagonet]

In strip 164, an elf bandit with green hair that is clearly male is facing to his left, exposing his right ear. Then, in strip 170, the same elf is holding the perimeter against the "vile invaders" and is facing to his right, exposing his left ear. This means that a, the elf is full elf and b, not all full elves do not have a clearly defined gender.

[Berserk Monk]

Okay, congrats. You discovered something lots of people already knew about. You're just like Columbus. You know, Lirian also has a clearly defined gender, and she is a minor character and not just a nameless NPC the giant threw in there.

[Optimystik]

What Ramidel is inferring is that you claim that V is asexual.

I know what he's inferring, I just don't see anywhere in my earlier post that mentioned Vaarsuvius. I can't be held responsible for others' lack of reading comprehension.

[Optimystik]

Is he wearing robes? No? So what's your point?

See, this is why I usually quote the person I'm replying to. You never know when an enterprising mod will merge threads and make you look like you're talking to yourself. :smallannoyed:

[Querzis]

slimes and jellies are a type of ooze. What Ramidel is inferring is that you claim that V is asexual. The quickest way to determine an elf's gender is to kick it in a certain area.

You do realize that, unlike what they seems to think in King of the Hill, kicking a woman between her legs will hurt her just as much as it would hurt a man right?

[Assassin89]

You do realize that, unlike what they seems to think in King of the Hill, kicking a woman between her legs will hurt her just as much as it would hurt a man right?

I understand that fact, but that is where humor of the groin attack (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GroinAttack) works.

[good_lookin_gus]

Or, you know, you could just ask them. :smalltongue:

He said quickest:smallwink:

[Lira]

He said quickest:smallwink:Asking is fairly quick.

Q: Are you male or female?
A: Male.

Done.

[Kaytara]

Asking is fairly quick.

Q: Are you male or female?
A: Male.

Done.

Or, better yet:

Q: Are you male or female?
A: Yes.

:smallbiggrin:

I wish I could take credit for that, but I saw that in someone's sig here on the forums...

[Lupy]

You do realize that, unlike what they seems to think in King of the Hill, kicking a woman between her legs will hurt her just as much as it would hurt a man right?

I don't know about that, but it would certainly hurt her.

---

I personally think that all elves look very androgynous; so I support the idea that some are just curvier than others.

[The Minx]

I personally think that all elves look very androgynous; so I support the idea that some are just curvier than others.

Lirian too? :smallconfused:


I heard that V was initially intended as a male, but people got confused, which amused the Giant, so he wrote the uncertainty into the comic.

Going by that, the default assumption, assuming you have to make one at all, and in the absence of further evidence, is that it's a male. Of course, that assumption could be proven wrong at some later time, but that's OK.

[awibs]

Are we sure the "curvy" elves we have seen were not half-elves?

If they are not, and are in fact clearly gender defined (to us) elves, are they considered weird looking by their own kind? Do other elves view them the way we might view the "gendererific" (PCish term I just made up to describe people who aren't typical "men" or "women") in real life human society?

I mean, say V is female. Then say that, among elves, V is considered an attractive female who is, to other elves, clearly feminine. Would elves view someone like Haley (pre hair cut!), a cute and feminine woman to humans, as some sort of odd Ru Paul type? Or do all humans just look like "Pat" to elves?

It really makes you stop and think!

In the novel Cloud of Sparrows, which takes place at the end of the feudal era in Japan, this cultural difference in what is considered attractive is discussed. It's not intentional "androgyny" that is valued in this case, however, ideal standards of beauty may seem unintentionally androgynous. As Japanese people physically tend to be of slighter, slimmer build than most Caucasians, slimmer forms are glorified. A tiny, slim, flat-chested woman is considered ideal and is effectively corseted as straight, flat, and narrow as possible (causing no unfortunate, disorderly bumps in the kimono.) This of course looks "childlike" and "undeveloped" to the Western eye. The men simply tend to be less bulky, do not grow much facial hair, and happened to wear their hair long in topknots - which looked quite "effeminate" to rugged, stubbly, broad-shouldered Americans. Of course, they considered the curvy, Victorian-corseted woman to be a "grotesque parody" of womanhood, beastly, and gigantic, and the stubble-faced, overly-thick men to be "rough," "peasant-like" and "crude" looking.

Lirian is the only clearly feminine by human standards elf in OOTS world I can think of. It is entirely possible, as you hypothesize, that she is overweight, and kind of dumpy with her excessively "humanish" curves by Elven beauty standards, but out of respect for her as a leader, they just don't mention it. You could very well fill in a whole "fat kid" outcast childhood backstory, wherin she focused upon her other merits (intellect is often something physically unattractive kids work hard at) and developed into a serious force, then was fortunate enough to find a human lover in the end, who appreciated her exactly how she was.

[Castaras]

To those who think Vaarsuvius is male: Why then, would he/she be sharing rooms with Haley?

I personally think the answer is that Vaarsuvius is a powergamer, and as such couldn't think of any reason why he/she/it should state whether they're male or female, as it wouldn't help with creating an uber character. Would explain the purple hair as well. :smalltongue:

So no, elves aren't androgynous. It's only Vaarsuvius, as we know, that is.

[Kaytara]

To those who think Vaarsuvius is male: Why then, would he/she be sharing rooms with Haley?

Any number of reasons, like Vaarsuvius not caring much about sex, already being a friend of Haley's and therefore an ideal roommate candidate if she doesn't want to room in complete solitude.



Lirian is the only clearly feminine by human standards elf in OOTS world I can think of. It is entirely possible, as you hypothesize, that she is overweight, and kind of dumpy with her excessively "humanish" curves by Elven beauty standards, but out of respect for her as a leader, they just don't mention it.

Is it even possible to be overweight when you tend to spend days upon days just walking in-between adventures? :smallconfused:

I'll stand by the idea that she's just a bit bustier than normal, like humans can be, which does not automatically require her to be overweight. It makes sense to me.

[The Minx]

To those who think Vaarsuvius is male: Why then, would he/she be sharing rooms with Haley?

In-universe. because there were no single rooms and they are old friends? Meaning that she is more comfortable with sharing a room with an old friend of the opposite gender, than other co-workers of the opposite gender.

Out-of-universe: because the Giant is teasing the audience. :smallwink:


Lirian is the only clearly feminine by human standards elf in OOTS world I can think of.

We really haven't seen that many elves, though.

[Assassin89]

We really haven't seen that many elves, though.

We have seen drow, but only two. One is part of that long line in that bathroom scene and the other was a member of the evil adventuring party.

[The Minx]

We have seen drow, but only two. One is part of that long line in that bathroom scene and the other was a member of the evil adventuring party.

The ones in episodes 87 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html) and 497 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). Both seemed pretty feminine.

[Epic_Wizard]

Without defining clothing most elves lean towards being androgynous and in a couple of things I've read it's sort of expected. Then again Rich never intended for V's gender to be a mystery but when the fan base made a big deal over it he ran with it.

The girl at the Tavern of Infinite One Night Stands is probably a Nymph actually (I mean really people, why would they put an elf there if they could pick anything from the MM? >.> )

The person in the basement of Pete's house could have been an elf but I'm pretty sure Rogues are an exception to almost every rule.

Liran is also not wearing non-androgynous clothing and is decidedly the "Hot Elf Chick" of the OotS world.

[Raenir Salazar]

Also the chances of V being male and gay from an Elven Community of Sun Elves while being married is to far fetched to be true. She sleeps in private rooms with Haley! Why would the others be so interested in listening in if she weren't female? I take at least 2 situations that are definitely female 1) Changing with the full upper and lower body being conveniently blocked by a corpse of a black dragon, 2) speech that implies great knowledge of the inner workings of relationships and of the inner thinking of females and 3) Sleeps in the same room with Haley but not with the others who with the exception of Belkar generally sleep in quarters separate from the females. 4) Thought this is a stretch she had this kinda wrathful indignation at times that I generally only see in females.

Aha! Another point in favour of being female Belkar at one point kissed her, she didn't seem to mind it in the way a male might mind being kissed by another male but minded it only because A) married and B) didn't want Belkar lusting after her as his mind only understood 2 modes, hate or lust.

Also people theres a very clear logical fallacy here of "Dialogue is everything" in Star Trek vs Star Wars discussions but doesnt quite apply here unless modified.

the fallacy is now "Artwork is everything" I trust Rich to be very good writer and as such we can trust him not to make the billion and a half continuality errors that mainstream shows make, however being a DnD world and Anachronistic dialogue notwithstanding the artwork as such isn't everything, just because there may or may not be a pattern in artwork doesn't clearly define gender, to me V is female and clearly so.

[TheSummoner]

You bring up the black dragon. How about the fact that the little we saw of V behind the dragon was squareish and followed the design Rich uses for male characters. Or how about how it was likely unintentional that V was behind the thing in the first place, and was simply used by Rich to obscure V's body so there would be no definate gender answer to either the reader or the order? As for why Haley and V shared a room, its obvious that Haley trusts V (they've been friends for a long time) and that V wouldn't try anything sexual (married) and anything implied in the strips where they shared a room was only for a joke.

Fact is, Rich has intentionally avoided giving evidence either way for V's gender. I doubt he ever will, and if he does decide to make V officially male or officially female, it likely won't happen until the very end of the story. I personally think of V as male, but since Rich is intentionally making V's gender undefined, its impossible to say if I'm right or wrong.

[Raenir Salazar]

yes but lets assume logically were using the comics to try to determine the most likely gender, we know, we ALL know that Rich is trying to be ambigious but that doesn't matter as we all have our own impressions of what sex V is.

However this doesn't stop us from debating it or discussing it from the points given by the stip, and no where in these points does it ever enter the equation what the art of the comic implies, you cannot take art work as 100%, he may have used it for male characters in theory but these are roughly stick figures so what? We assume that PC snark comments aside the characters probably look like real people to the characters and supposedly V looks indistignuishable enough from either male or female that the point is moot. What she looks like is irrelvent until Rich draws a rack on her. Robes are heavy and have layers, V could be relatively under endowed in the breast departments with heavy robes to boot.

Then theres Belkar, he can tell Nale and Elan apart by scent alone, certainly he can tell a girl from a man in common situations.

To reiterate, I do not believe that it is particularily productive to go msotly by artwork alone when we should be using logic and the dialogue to determine things.

[Optimystik]

Then theres Belkar, he can tell Nale and Elan apart by scent alone, certainly he can tell a girl from a man in common situations.

I wouldn't call being inebriated to a level most sailors would envy a "common situation." :smallwink:

Belkar himself doesn't even seem to remember kissing V (#323), so the fact that he wasn't freaked out doesn't really say anything about what he thinks V's gender might be. As for V's reaction, he claims that "A Belkar that lusts after me is too horrible to contemplate," (#335) which would be a reasonable statement from either gender of elf.

[TheSummoner]

he claims that "A Belkar that lusts after me is too horrible to contemplate," (#335) which would be a reasonable statement from either gender of elf.

Or any non chaotic evil character who knows even the slightest bit about Belkar... (I'm willing to bet Jenny is chaotic evil simply from the group she associates with and even if she isn't, she really doesn't know all too much about Death's lil Helper as it is...)

[The Minx]

Also the chances of V being male and gay from an Elven Community of Sun Elves while being married is to far fetched to be true. She sleeps in private rooms with Haley! Why would the others be so interested in listening in if she weren't female? I take at least 2 situations that are definitely female 1) Changing with the full upper and lower body being conveniently blocked by a corpse of a black dragon, 2) speech that implies great knowledge of the inner workings of relationships and of the inner thinking of females and 3) Sleeps in the same room with Haley but not with the others who with the exception of Belkar generally sleep in quarters separate from the females. 4) Thought this is a stretch she had this kinda wrathful indignation at times that I generally only see in females.

All of these points and more have been brought to bear before. :smallsmile: V sleeping in a twin room with Haley is meaningless, they are old acquaintances. She knows and trusts V more than the others. The Others are interested in listening in, because they are interested in Haley and DO NOT KNOW what V's gender is; they have referred to V as "him" on several occasions. The upper and lower body was covered by black dragon precisely because that would have been a giveaway if it were NOT. That it WAS covered means nothing one way or the other: can't males have their upper bodies covered by dragon corpses, especially if it serves to perpetuate the mystery? The speech did nothing to show knowledge of the inner thinking of females per se, but of relationships in general. You mentioned the sleeping arrangements twice, and yes, the wrathful indignation is indeed a stretch. :smallwink:


Aha! Another point in favour of being female Belkar at one point kissed her, she didn't seem to mind it in the way a male might mind being kissed by another male but minded it only because A) married and B) didn't want Belkar lusting after her as his mind only understood 2 modes, hate or lust.

Um, to me it seemed that V was shocked beyond words at what happened. :smallconfused:


Also people theres a very clear logical fallacy here of "Dialogue is everything" in Star Trek vs Star Wars discussions but doesnt quite apply here unless modified. the fallacy is now "Artwork is everything" I trust Rich to be very good writer and as such we can trust him not to make the billion and a half continuality errors that mainstream shows make, however being a DnD world and Anachronistic dialogue notwithstanding the artwork as such isn't everything, just because there may or may not be a pattern in artwork doesn't clearly define gender, to me V is female and clearly so.

But if you trust Rich to be a good writer, do you not trust him to be a good artist? :smallsmile: No one is claiming "artwork is everything". However, the Star Wars vs Star Trek debates you refer to tend to rely on visuals and "dialogue is everything" is considered a fallacy for a reason: the characters can simply be simply wrong if they say something, or they could be exaggerating or lying; but if you SEE something happening, you can rely on it. So, the paraphrasing doesn't work.

PS: why is it far-fetched that V is male, married and gay, anyway?

[TheSummoner]

Well, we know for a FACT that V is married, likely to an equally ambiguous mate if we ever get to see her. Theres a 50% chance hes male. As for gay, I guess its possible, but as for why its not likely, I'm going to go with the fact that there are no openly gay characters, this is an action/comedy comic and the tone doesn't fit with the kind that explores gay issues, and the Order has been shown to be less than mature about such things in the past (Roy has boobies!). But its possible I suppose.

As for the insight V gave Sabine about relationships... I would go with the fact that V is married and likely has been for atleast a few decades would qualify him to know enough about relationships to tell Sabine to fight for her love.

[Optimystik]

As for gay, I guess its possible, but as for why its not likely, I'm going to go with the fact that there are no openly gay characters, this is an action/comedy comic and the tone doesn't fit with the kind that explores gay issues, and the Order has been shown to be less than mature about such things in the past (Roy has boobies!). But its possible I suppose.

Sigh... Why would a gay character need a particular "tone" anyway? I'd personally love to see one in the strip, but having one wouldn't force the Order to deal with LGBT issues or anything like that. They can surely wisecrack about the rules and buckle their swash just as well as the straight ones.

[Hephaestus]

On the topic of gay characters, Right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)

[Carnivorous_Bea]

This conversation is ridiculously hilarious. :smallbiggrin: The Giant must be laughing fit to burst every time he sees one of these threads, where the readers ignore all the evidence in the comic, and just blaze ahead with their illogical, unsupported ideas that:

1. Elves are androgynous.

2. V's gender is ambiguous.

Honestly, it's a joke about how modern, short-haired people are unable to tell that a guy with long hair who wears a robe is male, and ignore all proof that he is. And the readership here contains a fair percentage of 'comic foils' for the joke. :smallbiggrin:

For the "elves are androgynous" thing, female elves are clearly female, as witness the female drow in 87 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)and Lirian in 276 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

As for V's gender, he acts like a male, talks like a male, has the reaction to the potential for Belkar lusting for him that a heterosexual male would have, is referred to as the "V-man," and etc.

There's always the argument that V's robes conceal his body, and it could really be female under it. However, in 186 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html), we can see enough of him so that his body is clearly pretty much the same shape as the robes.

Of course, the most bizarre suggestion is that V is in a homosexual marriage, which was apparently just made up, considering that there isn't even the 'evidence' for this that the other ideas have, however flawed that may be. Unless having hair longer than velcro is 100% proof of being homosexual, there's no indication that V is married to another male, other than the inexplicable thought process of certain readers. :smallwink:

Ah, yes, the matter of V and Haley in one room. Here, in 224 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0224.html), Haley expresses surprise that the others didn't know that V is married, in the very first frame. So, since Haley obviously knows more about V than the others do, is it surprising that she decides to share a room with a married male of a race which she knows has an extremely low sex drive (probably because of long lifespan), and who is basically totally 'safe' for her to be around because of this? She knows that a married male elf is going to have zero sexual interest in her. Although, of course, the arrangement also furthers the joke :smallsmile: ....

[Kaytara]

Thank you for this very enlightening post, Carnivorous_Bea. I have seen the error of my ways.