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Frosty
2009-01-13, 09:14 PM
So we've got a new game coming up and we need to figure out why these people might meet and work together in an adventuring party. I'd appreciate some insight on potential pitfalls and inter-party conflicts and how to get the players to work past them.

Possible party:
LG Gold Dwarf Paladin/Greyguard of St Cuthbert
TN Aasimar Cloistered Cleric/Malconvoker
LG Succubus (LA was reduced to +2) Paladin
CG Hellbred (Spirit Aspect) Beguiler

I'm sure there will be some great rp but we need a good IC reason for the Dwarf not to Detect Evil on the Succubus and then Smite away at first.

afroakuma
2009-01-13, 09:16 PM
Well, how is she a paladin?

Perhaps he was involved in her rise to grace?

Perhaps she's been assigned to him as a spiritual disciple, searching for redemption or the ability to make amends?

Assassin89
2009-01-13, 09:19 PM
One idea is to have the group forced to pay off a debt to a powerful wizard. The wizard will allow the party to leave his domain once each member pays 1 million gp. If one member dies, each member is required to pay off a fraction of the deceased member's debt as well.

KKL
2009-01-13, 09:20 PM
I'm sure there will be some great rp but we need a good IC reason for the Dwarf not to Detect Evil on the Succubus and then Smite away at first.

The Gold Dwarf is in fact partners with the Succubus Paladin (they fight crime). The two are working together on a church ordained mission. Secretly the Gold Dwarf is waiting until the Succubus shows signs that she in not in fact Paladin material, which would require heavenly smitings.

Xyk
2009-01-13, 09:22 PM
If she's lawful good, does detect evil even work?

Frosty
2009-01-13, 09:22 PM
One idea is to have the group forced to pay off a debt to a powerful wizard. The wizard will allow the party to leave his domain once each member pays 1 million gp. If one member dies, each member is required to pay off a fraction of the deceased member's debt as well.

That...is so cliched my players might throw d4s at me. That said, good initiative :smallbiggrin:

As for how she became a paladin, the Succubus's player hasn't decided yet. I know for a fact the Aasimar and the Gold Dwarf are friends though.

Frosty
2009-01-13, 09:26 PM
If she's lawful good, does detect evil even work?

A Succubus is an outsider with the [Evil] and [Chaotic] subtypes. Detect Evil's spell description would indicate that this Succubus, with its 12 HD, would register as Overwhelming evil.

Heliomance
2009-01-13, 09:28 PM
But Paladin also grants an Aura of Good. How do they interact?

KKL
2009-01-13, 09:28 PM
But Paladin also grants an Aura of Good. How do they interact?

Explosively.

Eldariel
2009-01-13, 09:29 PM
With the alignments matching, I don't really see a problem. Aasimar sticks around on heritage, Gold Dwarf and Succubus get along by alignment and the Beguiler...well, he's still good so they'd probably tolerate him. Really, church mission is an easy reason; The Paladins have been ordered to work together (Your Given God vouches on the Succubus), the Aasimar tags along with the Gold Dwarf because of their old friendship (and the Succubus interests him in regards of his fiend summoning studies) and the Beguiler is hired muscle to handle things the Paladins and Cleric aren't keen to handle.

Canadian
2009-01-13, 09:32 PM
They all meet at an A.A. meeting. The dwarf if the paladin's sponsor. They all have to adventure together and stay on the wagon at the same time.

They get a scroll with detect alcohol and aura of sobriety.

Heliomance
2009-01-13, 09:34 PM
I know Detect Evil can go off on subtype, but does Smite Evil? Would it not just fail due to her being LG? If Smite Evil doesn't work, it's often a clue you shouldn't be doing it.

Frosty
2009-01-13, 09:36 PM
But Paladin also grants an Aura of Good. How do they interact?

All this means is that a Blackguard can use Smite Good on her as easily as a Paladin can use Smite Evil on her.


With the alignments matching, I don't really see a problem. Aasimar sticks around on heritage, Gold Dwarf and Succubus get along by alignment and the Beguiler...well, he's still good so they'd probably tolerate him. Really, church mission is an easy reason; The Paladins have been ordered to work together (Your Given God vouches on the Succubus), the Aasimar tags along with the Gold Dwarf because of their old friendship (and the Succubus interests him in regards of his fiend summoning studies) and the Beguiler is hired muscle to handle things the Paladins and Cleric aren't keen to handle.
The whole "Deity vouches for a character" might not work because they've been rather distant lately, rarely interfering and speaking to mortals directly. Spells such as Divination and Contact Other Plane and even Zone of Truth have been failing, but that's a deeper part of the campaign story that we don't have to get into here.


I know Detect Evil can go off on subtype, but does Smite Evil? Would it not just fail due to her being LG? If Smite Evil doesn't work, it's often a clue you shouldn't be doing it.
Smite Evil doesn't check if you're Good or not. It just checks if you're Evil.

Jasdoif
2009-01-13, 10:03 PM
Unholy blight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unholyBlight.htm) will affect a Good Succubus, the same way it'll affect a Good creature without alignment subtypes. If the dwarf was aware of how demons always register via detect evil, and personally witnessed the Succubus becoming sickened from unholy blight, it should be believable that the Succubus is, in fact, Good.

woodenbandman
2009-01-13, 10:08 PM
Geas?

Or the beguiler could convince everyone that the succubus isn't evil at all, that it's really just a curse on her family's name.

Dacia Brabant
2009-01-13, 10:11 PM
A Succubus Paladin is certain to attract a lot of attention since it's so unheard of (outside of Planescape anyway), so it stands to reason that the Church of St. Cuthbert of all things would keep constant tabs on her to make sure she really is what she claims to be. That's where the dwarven paladin comes in--who better to investigate up close (and resist) a demon of lust than a staid old dwarf?

Jack_Simth
2009-01-13, 10:20 PM
But Paladin also grants an Aura of Good. How do they interact?

They don't. The two are completely independant of each other. See, all the Detect Alignment spells only test for the presence of the alignment they detect. The LG Paladin Succubus has the [Chaotic] and [Evil] Subtypes, so registers under Detect Chaos and Detect Evil. She also has the Auras from her Paladin levels, which means she shows under Detect Good and Detect Law as well. She's also got some usually-active Su abilities, so she shows under Detect Magic, too.

As far as most detect spells are concerned, she registers.

Likewise, she's very, very vulnerable to any of the alignment-based effects - see the Monster Manual subtype entry for Evil:

Evil Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

That's essentially duplicated under the Chaotic subtype, too. So as far as things like chaos hammer, holy smite, order’s wrath, or unholy blight are concerned, she's fully affected by all of them.

Grail
2009-01-13, 10:40 PM
It's quite easy. The Dwarf's master was responsible for turning her to the good side. She and the Dwarf have since become friends.

Innis Cabal
2009-01-13, 10:45 PM
If it has the evil subtype it can't even be a paladin. Regardless of its actual alignment, so there is your major problem right there.

Or if you rule otherwise, then it should lose its evil subtype because...well its not evil anymore, clearly.

Vexxation
2009-01-13, 10:46 PM
I'd like to point out that a Succubus Paladin is obviously shunned by her own people. Perhaps she likes the Malconvoker because he sends fiends to their death for a theoretically righteous cause.

Grail
2009-01-13, 10:49 PM
If it has the evil subtype it can't even be a paladin. Regardless of its actual alignment, so there is your major problem right there.

Or if you rule otherwise, then it should lose its evil subtype because...well its not evil anymore, clearly.

Incorrect. Wizards even published their own Succubus Paladin that rode on a Vrock Mount. I'm too lazy to find the link though.

KillianHawkeye
2009-01-13, 10:51 PM
You mentioned that the dwarf is a paladin of St. Cuthbert, but what about the cleric's religion? Does he follow a deity or just his own convictions? What level are they starting at?

I've assumed that, despite being LG and becoming a paladin, the succubus was unable to find a deity to sponser her. It still makes sense for a local church (especially one like St. Cuthbert's) to want to keep tabs on a creature with such a dark past, in case she falls back to her old ways. This would be easy to set up if the character had caused a bit of a ruckus when arriving in the area, but was eventually able to "prove" that she really was a paladin (backstory). Or else the dwarf or some other PC could have been a part of or witness to her initial redemption.

Either way, a succubus paladin operating in the area is going to get a rep. People (and darker things) are going to know about her, and form an opinion, even before they ever meet. Most people aren't going to like her very much, nor will they trust her at first, despite the fact she is a paladin. Beyond that, let the other players form their own opinions about her and from there you can all decide how you want to keep the group together.

Altima
2009-01-13, 10:54 PM
They three 'normal' folk are there to ride herd on the Succubus, who's the experiment of a Circlet of Inverse Alignment (circlets are prettier than helms). Since demons are innately evil (succubi are, has been, and always will be, demons, so suck it 4e), and chaotically so, they require evidence that the change is permanant, and that, perhaps, it can be expanded upon to include others.

This allows you to keep the succubi character from wearing helms (thus incorporating into her level adjustment reduction). It gives you a reason for them being together. I suggest making up a deity that the succubi follows--such as a deity of (poetic) justic, atonement, forgiveness or whatever--to explain her paladinship (if she requires further reduction of power, you could limit the amount of special powers she gets, like not being able to use lay on hands or smite evil or aura of good).

It also gives you a good hook for such an organization going 'too far' in their quest to redeem the 'bad guys' (see: mind control, enforcing their power on people who aren't really evil, etc).

Grail
2009-01-13, 10:55 PM
Actually, I remembered that I posted the link for Eludecia (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) here a while ago, so i didn't have to really do much to find it again.

Grail
2009-01-13, 11:00 PM
And as to everyone finding out about a Succubus paladin running around, she has polymorph with no duration, so it's not going to be that easy for it to happen. It'll just be a whacky chick paladin.

RTGoodman
2009-01-13, 11:00 PM
All four characters are sort of the type that any normal church wouldn't necessarily use in public ceremonies and all that - basically, you've got a Paladin that isn't quite a squeaky-clean as he should be (Greyguard), a demon-looking guy, a Cleric that literally summons demons, and an ACTUAL demon that CLAIMS to be a LG Paladin. I mean, it's pretty shocking.

That said, it's the kind of group the hierarchy of the Cuthbertite church might use for missions that need more... discretion. I mean, the group is less likely to be the stick-up-the-butt, Miko-style Paladins/Clerics than most Cuthbertite groups, and the church can definitely use that. They're sort of like Pelor and Heironeous's "Shadow Guard" or whatever it is they call those guys in Complete Champion.

Innis Cabal
2009-01-13, 11:04 PM
She also ends up losing all of her abilities from even being a succubus. As all of them are evil. So she gets double the screw for being a paladin. Not thats its not cool for RP...but really you should drop the subtype, there are even rules for it in BoED

KKL
2009-01-13, 11:07 PM
(succubi are, has been, and always will be, demons, so suck it 4e)

Wow, that line was totally needed and in no way a (blatant) jab at an edition in an attempt to validate your own burning hatred.

Hey, did you know that Succubi fit the Devil description MORE than they do Demons?

Limos
2009-01-13, 11:22 PM
The first three all sound like they are involved with a certain church. So they could reasonably know one another, or at least respect one another based on their religious affiliations. The beguiler could be friends with the succubus, or a mercenary.

Being a Mercenary is usually the easiest explanation for things.

"Why am I following you?"
"Because I pay you."
"Oh right. Carry on then."

Drider
2009-01-13, 11:25 PM
Maybe the succubus is that way from a curse, like a werewolf except as a demon...Or that she just looks like a succubus, but she is a complete vargoulle(however it's spelled, that head monster that kisses you, then your head grows bat wings and flys away).
If malconvoker is a demon-based class(I remember it that way, i may be wrong), maybe he summoned the succubus and/or the hellbred as a single summon that has free-will, and is hiding what they are from the paladin/paladinS. Maybe the gold dwarf is trying to redeem them and is acting as their jailor(ala' miko, except more sympathetic toward them) and is more of a moral guide.

RTGoodman
2009-01-13, 11:27 PM
The first three all sound like they are involved with a certain church. So they could reasonably know one another, or at least respect one another based on their religious affiliations. The beguiler could be friends with the succubus, or a mercenary.


Well, the Beguiler (the only one NOT connected to a church by class) also happens to be a Hellbred - a sinner that managed to escape Hell somehow and got one more chance on earth to make things better (though marked in body by his trial by hellfire). I'm sure a character like that would probably find something of himself in a Succubus Paladin, a Malconvoker, and a Grey Guard.

Jasdoif
2009-01-13, 11:28 PM
And as to everyone finding out about a Succubus paladin running around, she has polymorph with no duration, so it's not going to be that easy for it to happen. It'll just be a whacky chick paladin.The polymorph was errata'd to change shape. A creature using change shape retains its alignment subtypes, so she'd still show up on detect evil. And without indication that that's due to an alignment subtype, it's more likely that the dwarf paladin will opt for smiting. And even if the dwarf never uses detect evil with her in the area, if the changed shape is ever removed (antimagic field or something) the surprise could easily result in the dwarf thinking a succubus has removed his erstwhile companion and destroy it in holy vengence.

For those reasons, I would suggest that it's best if the dwarf is aware of the succubus' actual nature as...a succubus.


She also ends up losing all of her abilities from even being a succubus. As all of them are evil.Could you explain what you mean here? An LG creature with alignment subtypes is still an LG creature, after all; and none of the spell-like abilities, nor change shape, nor tongues, are evil abilities.

Grail
2009-01-13, 11:33 PM
The polymorph was errata'd to change shape. A creature using change shape retains its alignment subtypes, so she'd still show up on detect evil. And without indication that that's due to an alignment subtype, it's more likely that the dwarf paladin will opt for smiting. And even if the dwarf never uses detect evil with her in the area, if the changed shape is ever removed (antimagic field or something) the surprise could easily result in the dwarf thinking a succubus has removed his erstwhile companion and destroy it in holy vengence.


I'm talking about the other poons finding out and her getting a rep for being a Succubus Paladin.

Lord Mancow
2009-01-13, 11:41 PM
The whole "Deity vouches for a character" might not work because they've been rather distant lately, rarely interfering and speaking to mortals directly. Spells such as Divination and Contact Other Plane and even Zone of Truth have been failing, but that's a deeper part of the campaign story that we don't have to get into here.

I hope that your players are preparing anti-construct and devil spells because you may have been reading a certain VUAM thread.:smallwink:

Just for my own interests, what penalties are you applying to the succubus to decrease its LA to +2?

An idea.

The succubus was captured by a member of the church related to the Dwarf who swiftly defeated it and decided that he would attempt to turn it to his point of view using a combination of spells, kindness, punishment for evil deeds as well as circlet/ helm of opposite alignment.

Glyphic
2009-01-13, 11:47 PM
Lawfully, the Succubus and the Dwarf are married to each other. :smallbiggrin:

Altima
2009-01-13, 11:59 PM
Lawfully, the Succubus and the Dwarf are married to each other. :smallbiggrin:


My eyes...they burneth!

Lycanthromancer
2009-01-14, 12:02 AM
Lawfully, the Succubus and the Dwarf are married to each other. :smallbiggrin:

Succubus + dwarf = ...Carebear?

Frosty
2009-01-14, 01:28 AM
I hope that your players are preparing anti-construct and devil spells because you may have been reading a certain VUAM thread.:smallwink:

Just for my own interests, what penalties are you applying to the succubus to decrease its LA to +2?

Can't use the Energy Drain attack (because she considers it to be an evil attack). She lost Polymorph-at-will so she's actually stuck in succubus form. Also, the Paladin class sucks.

As for the Aasimar, is it a Cloistered cleric of Olidimarra, so she fits perfectly with the whole "tricking evil outsiders" thing. The player had considered going with a Kobold cleric at first, actually, but then a beguiler showed up so Trapfinding was taken care of.

JonestheSpy
2009-01-14, 01:58 AM
Well, personally, my opinion is that individual alignment trumps type when it comes to detects, smites, etc, but that's up to the DM.

As to why they'd work together, I always like the "Crisis brings available characters together" scenario. Big problem needs solving - goblin invasion, baby kidnapped by evil cultists, whatever, and the PC's are the only folks around who are in a position to address said crisis. Dealing with the crisis has to outweigh any issues individuals within the party may have with each other, and hopefully by the time they've succeeded in solving the crisis, they've bonded and come to trust each other.

Up to you to judge what type of crisis would be appropriate to kick start your campaign.

Oh, and BTW, I wouldn't say paladins suck, but I do think all their neat stuff is heavily weighted to the first few levels, then rapidly gets less worthwhile. I compensate by adding a couple of bonus feats at higher levels, either fighter feats or Turning feats, to keep them balanced with other classes.

Frosty
2009-01-14, 02:06 AM
Well, personally, my opinion is that individual alignment trumps type when it comes to detects, smites, etc, but that's up to the DM.

Ahh, but if she doesn't have the Chaos and Evil subtypes, then she's not really a demon anymore is she? :smallwink:

Heliomance
2009-01-14, 02:13 AM
If it has the evil subtype it can't even be a paladin. Regardless of its actual alignment, so there is your major problem right there.

Or if you rule otherwise, then it should lose its evil subtype because...well its not evil anymore, clearly.

Wizards of the Coast would like to respectfully disagree with you. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)

JonestheSpy
2009-01-14, 02:16 AM
Ahh, but if she doesn't have the Chaos and Evil subtypes, then she's not really a demon anymore is she? :smallwink:

Really, I'd say that just depends on the way you run the campaign. I don't see anything wrong with ruling that one can't be of the Evil subtype without actually being evil. Perhaps, she's not technically a 'demon' anymore, but is still a Tanar'ri?

Jasdoif
2009-01-14, 02:21 AM
Ahh, but if she doesn't have the Chaos and Evil subtypes, then she's not really a demon anymore is she? :smallwink:Of course she is, the succubus is still there in the section of the MM for demons! :smalltongue:

Altima
2009-01-14, 02:41 AM
Also, the Paladin class sucks.


I wouldn't say a paladin class sucks for a creature that can, apparently, get 30 charisma rather easily. +10 to saves is rather massive, as are the divine might/shield spells. Plus, that's a lot of smites a day.

On the other hand, the spells that affect outsiders should be hilarious. The first time she's about to be killed, you should totally yank her out of play by reason that she was hit with a Summon Planar Ally (or whatever) spell...and have the resulted good guy that summoned her be so shocked that he gets killed, instantly ending the spell.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-14, 02:52 AM
I'm sure there will be some great rp but we need a good IC reason for the Dwarf not to Detect Evil on the Succubus and then Smite away at first.
Using Detect Evil as an excuse for immediate attack is a path to ex-paladinhood, it can be misleading and unprovoked attacks on creatures regardless of alignment is not a good act.

The cleric can detect good and detect her good aura (from being a good creature) as well BTW.

Frosty
2009-01-14, 02:58 AM
I wouldn't say a paladin class sucks for a creature that can, apparently, get 30 charisma rather easily. +10 to saves is rather massive, as are the divine might/shield spells. Plus, that's a lot of smites a day.

On the other hand, the spells that affect outsiders should be hilarious. The first time she's about to be killed, you should totally yank her out of play by reason that she was hit with a Summon Planar Ally (or whatever) spell...and have the resulted good guy that summoned her be so shocked that he gets killed, instantly ending the spell.

I wasn't aware that paladin Smite uses per day is dependent on Charisma (although I could houserule that in)

And yeah Paladins can't smite on sight, but Grey Guards have more leeway to act if he believes he is doing something for the greater good.

The_Snark
2009-01-14, 03:15 AM
And yeah Paladins can't smite on sight, but Grey Guards have more leeway to act if he believes he is doing something for the greater good.

I guess that leads us to the question of whether he's the sort of character to smite first and ask questions later? For some reason, all the Grey Guards I've seen (a grand total of two or three) have been the sort who instantly attacks anything that detects as evil... which strikes me as weird, because the idea that comes to mind when I read the class is somebody who'd be willing to work with (and use, and maybe eventually betray) a lesser evil to destroy a greater. It's supposed to be morally ambiguous, but apparently some people see it as Lawful Stupid...

Anyway, that aside, it seems like it'd be easiest to have the dwarf know the succubus already, as some people have already suggested. Is there any reason (either your plot or the character backstories) why that can't be the case?

xanaphia
2009-01-14, 03:21 AM
Possible party:
LG Gold Dwarf Paladin/Greyguard of St Cuthbert
TN Aasimar Cloistered Cleric/Malconvoker
LG Succubus (LA was reduced to +2) Paladin
CG Hellbred (Spirit Aspect) Beguiler


The Succubus Paladin wants to work as a paladin, but the Dwarf has to go with her to keep an eye on her.

The Beguiler used to be a villain, but Atoned. The Dwarf was assigned to take care of him too.

The Aasimar cleric wants to do study on the succubus, because they're rare, so is following the party around.

Frosty
2009-01-14, 03:38 AM
[QUOTE=The_Snark;5638300]because the idea that comes to mind when I read the class is somebody who'd be willing to work with (and use, and maybe eventually betray) a lesser evil to destroy a greater.QUOTE]

That also describes Malconover well. I wonder if the Hellbredmight have a problem with the Grey guard instead, since Hellbreds are in many senses the epitome of doing good (they have to in order to have a chance at not burning in hell) so he might bristle at a Grey Guard's moral grey-ness.

Magnor Criol
2009-01-14, 03:49 AM
I'm sure there will be some great rp but we need a good IC reason for the Dwarf not to Detect Evil on the Succubus and then Smite away at first.

Why does the paladin have to be the sort of "If it's evil, kill it and ask questions later" pally?

It seems to me that as long as the player isn't set on playing the overdone singleminded zealot archetype, then it'd be entirely reasonable to assume that the succubus could have, say, explained herself to the paladin.

"I'm not evil anymore - at least, I'm trying not to be. I still have some evil inherent in me, but [patron diety] willing, I'll do what it takes to purge that from my soul."
"Very well. I detect both good and evil from you, and you have the trust of [person the pally knows or obeys], so I'll give you a chance to prove yourself. But know that I've got my eye on you."

Or some version thereof.

There doesn't even have to be the 'trust of someone he knows' bit going; depending on the character's character, he may simply be willign to grant a chance based on the fact that his Detect Evil picks up both, and she's not actively trying to kill (or seduce) him.

pingcode20
2009-01-14, 04:39 AM
I'm sure there will be some great rp but we need a good IC reason for the Dwarf not to Detect Evil on the Succubus and then Smite away at first.

You know, I think the best way to handle this is to actually allow the misunderstanding to potentially go down. Only, you know, plan out contingencies.

Paladin and Cleric enter the scene together, on the search for a force of 'incredible evil' in the area. This happens because of the overwhelming aura leaving a trail for 1d6 days everywhere the Succubus goes.

However, the Succubus has also been keeping watch (knowing how her nature will immediately ping every paladin who so much as bothers to enter the area) and has been preparing for this inevitability, and has prepared a 'haven'.

This would be the local temple, complete with cleric. Since clerics have to prepare their spells, it's more conceivable that she could go 'undetected' long enough to convince the cleric, by asking the cleric to prepare both Detect Good and Detect Evil spells (The detect evil is more showing she has nothing to hide), then revealing her nature to the cleric and proving that she is a paladin. Calling her celestial steed would also go a long way to helping prove this, though it wouldn't help with a paladin, who can't detect good.

So, the Paladin, following the trail of the 'unspeakable evil', bursts into the temple and discovers the succubus (obviously masking her true form, for the sake of reducing misunderstandings). Paladin charges in and a brief combat ensues until the priest, who was conveniently in at the time as well*, has his initiative come up, at which point he moves between the two shouting for the paladin to stop.

At 12 HD and indoors, it's practically impossible to actually outright kill the succubus in the partial round that takes place. With the Succubus' insane saves, it's even less likely.

So, what happens is that the priest takes everyone into his private chambers, where he smooths over the paladin and malconvoker's expectations before the succubus reveals that she is a succubus. The 'come clean without prompting' approach, followed by a 'test' that would reveal she has Overwhelming trails of Good, Evil, and Chaos, along with a Moderate trail of Law. A quick horse delivery from Celestia later, and her paladinhood is beyond question.

*All in the name of narrative, of course.

---

@Magnor: It's the overwhelming aura of evil that's the sticky bit. Overwhelming usually pings as 'Irredeemable Evil' with good cause. Of course, this makes it a problem when you're a paladin with the evil subtype.

Jasdoif
2009-01-14, 05:16 AM
The 'come clean without prompting' approach, followed by a 'test' that would reveal she has Overwhelming trails of Good, Evil, and Chaos, along with a Moderate trail of Law.Her trail of Law is actually Overwhelming as well, since she is a 12HD Lawful outsider. I do like your idea overall, though. And conveniently, the cloistered cleric in the party should have access to detect good and detect law as well, to verify that the priest's claim is accurate (and not the result of a charm monster SLA).

Roderick_BR
2009-01-14, 10:29 AM
Smite Evil doesn't check if you're Good or not. It just checks if you're Evil.
But it checks if you have an evil alignment, or subtype? I know that effects that avoid alignment detection usually doen't affect results like Smite Evil, as in, someone with a Undetectable Alignment spell would still be hurt by a smite evil or holy weapon. I think that a detect evil and detect good would both detect her as a positive result, but smite evil/holy spells, wouldn't harm her (more than a neutral character).

And I agree, if the dwarf knows she's a sucubus in some holy mission, he should tolerate her, even if he thinks it will not work.

Frosty
2009-01-14, 10:59 AM
You know, I think the best way to handle this is to actually allow the misunderstanding to potentially go down. Only, you know, plan out contingencies.
True, and it'd be a great entrance RPscene.


A quick horse delivery from Celestia later, and her paladinhood is beyond question.
Actually, she took Leadership to get a Nightmare mount. Story-wise, no celestial mount would answer her call for some reason. The players don't know why either.


@Magnor: It's the overwhelming aura of evil that's the sticky bit. Overwhelming usually pings as 'Irredeemable Evil' with good cause. Of course, this makes it a problem when you're a paladin with the evil subtype.

Well she was redeemed at 6HD. She gained 6 more HD through adventuring to earn Paladin levels. So yeah, she's a 12 HD evil outsider, and she may have been irredeemable if she waited until she advanced to 12 HD until the conversation attempt.

Jasdoif
2009-01-14, 11:02 AM
But it checks if you have an evil alignment, or subtype? I know that effects that avoid alignment detection usually doen't affect results like Smite Evil, as in, someone with a Undetectable Alignment spell would still be hurt by a smite evil or holy weapon. I think that a detect evil and detect good would both detect her as a positive result, but smite evil/holy spells, wouldn't harm her (more than a neutral character).

And I agree, if the dwarf knows she's a sucubus in some holy mission, he should tolerate her, even if he thinks it will not work.It checks for alignment. But since she has the Evil subtype, she's considered evil for the purposes of effects that affect evil creatures, even though her actual alignment is LG. So smite evil will provide its bonuses against her.

Undetectable alignment only blocks divination effects.

Tengu_temp
2009-01-14, 01:23 PM
Using Detec Evil on the succubus paladin should give an... unusual result. An aura that's evil because of the origin of the creature, but extremely dimmed by another source, that is much larger and not evil at all... make sure to state it clearly enough that the player understands the succubus paladin isn't evil.

Or just throw the rule that non-evil demons/devils detect as evil out of the window. It's retarded anyway.

Roderick_BR
2009-01-14, 02:59 PM
It checks for alignment. But since she has the Evil subtype, she's considered evil for the purposes of effects that affect evil creatures, even though her actual alignment is LG. So smite evil will provide its bonuses against her.

Undetectable alignment only blocks divination effects.
I know, that's my point. Does smite evil affect subtype, or only alignment? I know I did read something about Smite Evil affecting undead, regardless of alignment, but can't find where. Is there something about subtype? The paladin's entry about Smite Evil only say that you don't deal extra damage if you attack a non-evil creature. Doesn't especify what "evil" means.
Myself, I think that a paladin smiting a demon/ness and finding it doesn't work, would make an interesting RP scene.

hamishspence
2009-01-14, 03:16 PM
If the Energy Drain Spell doesn't have Evil type, why should the spell-like ability?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-01-14, 03:40 PM
Using Detec Evil on the succubus paladin should give an... unusual result. An aura that's evil because of the origin of the creature, but extremely dimmed by another source, that is much larger and not evil at all... make sure to state it clearly enough that the player understands the succubus paladin isn't evil.

Or just throw the rule that non-evil demons/devils detect as evil out of the window. It's retarded anyway.

i would agree with you tengu,

Though i think not only should you encourage the Succubi to detect evil at the same time as the dwarf which should in theory make the dwarf go... did she just detect evil on me? and or you should make the dwarfs reading come up as her body is evil but her aura is good.. as in because of her race(soem sort of Knowledge religon check) her body radiates evil btu becuase she is good she should have good aura.

Or RAW shouldn't it both show through??

Jasdoif
2009-01-14, 04:18 PM
I know, that's my point. Does smite evil affect subtype, or only alignment? I know I did read something about Smite Evil affecting undead, regardless of alignment, but can't find where. Is there something about subtype? The paladin's entry about Smite Evil only say that you don't deal extra damage if you attack a non-evil creature. Doesn't especify what "evil" means.Well, it says,
If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.I'm quite certain they'd have said "accidentally smites a creature without the Evil subtype" if they were intending to restrict it to the subtype.

And, it says it has no effect against a creature that is "not evil", and for the purpose of alignment-based effects like this she is evil. Just because she's also considered good doesn't negate that. (The alignment subtypes are a rather..."interesting" way of mechanically discouraging playing against the alignment of alignment-heavy creature types. Perhaps not the clearest in implementation, but it's at least a small step up from "No, you can't, ever.")



Myself, I think that a paladin smiting a demon/ness and finding it doesn't work, would make an interesting RP scene.No argument from me on this.

Signmaker
2009-01-14, 04:35 PM
That...is so cliched my players might throw d4s at me. That said, good initiative :smallbiggrin:

As for how she became a paladin, the Succubus's player hasn't decided yet. I know for a fact the Aasimar and the Gold Dwarf are friends though.

Oh god, not the d4s. d30s and d20s are fine but GAH!
..the memories, they scar.

pingcode20
2009-01-14, 05:41 PM
Well she was redeemed at 6HD. She gained 6 more HD through adventuring to earn Paladin levels. So yeah, she's a 12 HD evil outsider, and she may have been irredeemable if she waited until she advanced to 12 HD until the conversation attempt.

Which is the sticky situation the Succubus finds herself in - no paladin would ever be faulted for assuming that every 'Overwhelming Aura of Evil' represents irredeemable evil in some form. The Paladin hauling The Ultimate Evil in artifact from would suffer from the same problem, really - having to try and get other paladins ignorant of their task to stop fighting long enough to prove their own identities. (This is much easier for them because of the 'Roy Solution' of having themselves scanned without the artifact of doom. The Succubus can't exactly take off her Evil Subtype)

The Succubus can prove she's a paladin easily enough by getting the full battery of 'Detections', which would show she has a trail of all four alignments. The hard part is waiting in a place advantageous enough to get the Dwarf to stop long enough to go through the special detections to show she is redeemed.

---

I sort of figured that she wouldn't count as a 'Lawful Outsider' because of the lack of subtype, but that's more a DM call. Either way is still good, though.

---

Non-functional smiteage would be a bit of a houserule, but it's not like it'd change much. Similar thing would be permitting the Succubus to wield holy weapons without being hit by the negative levels - a houserule, but there's nothing really wrong with that.

It's just something you can call in either direction if you think it'll help the RP one way or another.

EDIT: @Ragnarok'sChosen: Actually, the Succubus could detect for any of the three 'Ethics' alignments, because as a Succubus she has the inherent at-will power for Detect Good.

It's also a good way of seeing 'Hey, is this guy worth giving the benefit of the doubt?'.

Tacoma
2009-01-14, 05:50 PM
I think where they were going with the alignment subtype was that some creatures are so irredeemably Evil (or Good) that nothing they can do in their lives will remove that aura. So it makes sense that this paladin cannot wield a holy weapon without taking the negative levels, and is vulnerable to Smite Evil and Detect Evil. Tough luck Sister Shortsword, but then again being a paladin in spite of the difficulties is more worthwhile than being a paladin when it's easy, according to some philosophers. Overcoming your hardships is how your mettle is tested, and all that.

This brings up a point, too. The players could have come up with the following party, which is obviously incompatible:

LG Aasimar Ranger (vegan)
LN Drow Elf Rogue (vampire template, slavery abolitionist)
NE High Elf Assassin / Blackguard (sunder specialist, slaver)
CE Halfling Barbarian / Frenzied Berzerker (barbecue chef)

There is no reason for the DM to try to reconcile this party. At some point the players need to do all the work of deciding how they could possibly work together. Otherwise there's about 15 minutes of roleplaying followed by the party splitting up or some being killed, and +1 Resentment.

Frosty
2009-01-14, 07:50 PM
Which is the sticky situation the Succubus finds herself in - no paladin would ever be faulted for assuming that every 'Overwhelming Aura of Evil' represents irredeemable evil in some form. The Paladin hauling The Ultimate Evil in artifact from would suffer from the same problem, really - having to try and get other paladins ignorant of their task to stop fighting long enough to prove their own identities. (This is much easier for them because of the 'Roy Solution' of having themselves scanned without the artifact of doom. The Succubus can't exactly take off her Evil Subtype)

The Succubus can prove she's a paladin easily enough by getting the full battery of 'Detections', which would show she has a trail of all four alignments. The hard part is waiting in a place advantageous enough to get the Dwarf to stop long enough to go through the special detections to show she is redeemed.

---

I sort of figured that she wouldn't count as a 'Lawful Outsider' because of the lack of subtype, but that's more a DM call. Either way is still good, though.

---

Non-functional smiteage would be a bit of a houserule, but it's not like it'd change much. Similar thing would be permitting the Succubus to wield holy weapons without being hit by the negative levels - a houserule, but there's nothing really wrong with that.

It's just something you can call in either direction if you think it'll help the RP one way or another.

EDIT: @Ragnarok'sChosen: Actually, the Succubus could detect for any of the three 'Ethics' alignments, because as a Succubus she has the inherent at-will power for Detect Good.

It's also a good way of seeing 'Hey, is this guy worth giving the benefit of the doubt?'.

She doesn't count as a [Lawful] Outsider no but her Lawful alignment means she'll have a Moderate aura of Law, and an Overwhelming aura of the other 3.

pingcode20: Would you say that the Gold Dwarf Paladin/Greyguard be required to Atone if he tries Smiting the Succubus?


If the Energy Drain Spell doesn't have Evil type, why should the spell-like ability?
Because she feels that sucking the life force out of men while screwing them is a Bad Thing(tm)

Agrippa
2009-01-14, 08:37 PM
Using Detec Evil on the succubus paladin should give an... unusual result. An aura that's evil because of the origin of the creature, but extremely dimmed by another source, that is much larger and not evil at all... make sure to state it clearly enough that the player understands the succubus paladin isn't evil.

Or just throw the rule that non-evil demons/devils detect as evil out of the window. It's retarded anyway.

I concor Tengu. Either detect evil reveals someone of Evil origins but with a non-Evil alignment, or they don't detect as evil at all. In my opinion paladins by vriture of their detect evil power should grasp the fact that Dark Is Not Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkIsNotEvil) and Light Is Not Good (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LightIsNotGood). Such bigotry and knee-jerk feer can be expected from lesser folk, but never a true paladin.

ericgrau
2009-01-14, 09:18 PM
As for the LG succubus paladin, the good/evil question is in the FAQ somewhere. She is both good and evil for the purpose of all spells, etc. Detect evil works on her, detect good works on her, smite evil works on her and smite good works on her. In fact, since succubi also have the chaotic subtype, she is affected by just about every alignment affecting spell in the game.

For the purpose of alignment requirements such as class & prestige class requirements she is LG, and she is not evil.

Frosty
2009-01-14, 10:15 PM
I concor Tengu. Either detect evil reveals someone of Evil origins but with a non-Evil alignment, or they don't detect as evil at all. In my opinion paladins by vriture of their detect evil power should grasp the fact that Dark Is Not Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkIsNotEvil) and Light Is Not Good (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LightIsNotGood). Such bigotry and knee-jerk feer can be expected from lesser folk, but never a true paladin.

Are you talking how it *should* be or how it *is* by RAW?

RebelRogue
2009-01-14, 10:29 PM
Or just throw the rule that non-evil demons/devils detect as evil out of the window. It's retarded anyway.
Really, I find it's the notion of a non-evil demon/devil that's... well, not retarded, but it just rubs me wrong somehow, even with the exception to the "always" in the alignment stat block.

But I agree, that if such a thing as a non-evil demon/devil exists, it shouldn't detect evil. I guess I'd let it lose its relevant subtypes, mechanically to reflect that. On a more philosophical level, I'm not sure I would truly consider it a demon/devil anymore... The question is what exactly it would be, then :smallconfused:

Frosty
2009-01-14, 10:36 PM
Demons are made from the very ESSENSE of the Abyss, the stuff of chaos and evil. If a succubus ceased having the Evil and Chaotic subtypes, then she'd literally cease to exist. The essense of evil and chaos is what composes her body/soul (one and the same for outsiders).

RebelRogue
2009-01-14, 10:46 PM
Demons are made from the very ESSENSE of the Abyss, the stuff of chaos and evil. If a succubus ceased having the Evil and Chaotic subtypes, then she'd literally cease to exist. The essense of evil and chaos is what composes her body/soul (one and the same for outsiders).
That's probably what my problem with such creatures are: it makes no sense that they could ever exist! Yes, I know WotC published one, and I'm certainly not going to suggest you're "doing D&D wrong" by allowing it, but it sure is a real headache!

Frosty
2009-01-14, 11:49 PM
That's probably what my problem with such creatures are: it makes no sense that they could ever exist! Yes, I know WotC published one, and I'm certainly not going to suggest you're "doing D&D wrong" by allowing it, but it sure is a real headache!

But that's the fun and beauty of it! What better story than the one of ultimate struggle and redemption in the face of unfounded (well, maybe somewhat founded) prejudices and new obstacles at every turn to test her resolve?

Agrippa
2009-01-15, 12:10 AM
Are you talking how it *should* be or how it *is* by RAW?

How it should be and how it would be in one of my campaigns. If a demon becomes Lawful Good they do not cease to exist! Instead that demon becomes an Archorn or angel with the physical appearance and non-Evil powers of a demon.

A redeemed succubus is basically a statuesque angel with shiny black leathery wings, small bright-red horns and a bifurcated tail with a fondness for consensual sex. Just replace all Evil traits and powers for Good ones give her restoration as an at will touch based power instead of energy drain. Talk about sexual healing. The party paladin wouldn't mind at all. I should shut up right now.

Asbestos
2009-01-15, 12:16 AM
That's probably what my problem with such creatures are: it makes no sense that they could ever exist! Yes, I know WotC published one, and I'm certainly not going to suggest you're "doing D&D wrong" by allowing it, but it sure is a real headache!

I always felt that they'd just turn into some other form of Outsider. Not necessarily one that we have stats for though... Like an angel that goes LE would turn into a "X Devil" (but not baatezu) and a demon that went LG would turn into a "Y Archon".

Edit: Ninja'd


But that's the fun and beauty of it! What better story than the one of ultimate struggle and redemption in the face of unfounded (well, maybe somewhat founded) prejudices and new obstacles at every turn to test her resolve?
So like... a certain Mr. Do'Urden?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-01-15, 12:46 AM
The Gold Dwarf is in fact partners with the Succubus Paladin (they fight crime). The two are working together on a church ordained mission. Secretly the Gold Dwarf is waiting until the Succubus shows signs that she in not in fact Paladin material, which would require heavenly smitings.

This is by far the best suggestion I've seen.

In the event the Succubus decides not to go Cuthbert, you can always go with a Mark of Justice.

Say the Succubus Paladin wants to atone for the Evil of her race, and she is guided (by hook or by crook) to a temple of St. Cuthbert. Well now, they were all set to smite her, but she came in defenseless and asked to prove her worth to Cuthbert. So the high priest laid a Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) upon her and gave her to the care of the Dwarf PC.

The conditions match those of the Paladin's Code and also require her to remain a certain distance of the Dwarf at all times. He is also told that, if she triggers the Mark for any reason, he is to smite her dead.

pingcode20
2009-01-15, 12:55 AM
Re: Smite-Atone

Atone? Nah, probably just a bit of guilt at the fact that were it not for him stopping to listen, he might have accidentally killed a shining example of the triumph of good over evil.

Besides, a chance to help a redeemed demon stay redeemed by making it easier to stay on the straight-and-narrow - and, if she does fall, the Dwarf can smite her to pieces before she can so much as make an alluring wave of the hand.

---
A Correction:

The aura of alignment doesn't actually linger unless death happens, I've just noticed. It's contained in its vessel until destroyed. Whoopsie.

Still, I can see Detect-Smite being a good way to have them meet.

---

Eh, I don't really like the idea of giving the Succubus a bunch of Archon Powers. Make it an ultimate goal to actually shuck off the Chaos and Evilness.

The fact that she's still got the Chaos and Evil subtypes means that she constantly teeters on the brink of falling right back in after clawing her way all the way up to becoming a paragon of good.

Moreover, the generalised forces of good would have a vested interest in keeping her on the right path - again, her paladinhood proves that all evil can be redeemed, and they have a vested interest in keeping it that way.

---

Mark of Justice? Eh, I don't like that one too much. It runs into the problem of having one player under the power of another, which tends to cause hard feelings.

Besides, no trust given, no trust returned.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-01-15, 12:59 AM
Mark of Justice? Eh, I don't like that one too much. It runs into the problem of having one player under the power of another, which tends to cause hard feelings.

Besides, no trust given, no trust returned.

The real problem isn't that the Dwarf is a Paladin, it's that he's a Paladin of St. Cuthbert. That dude smites first and asks questions never. As I see it you have three options:

(1) The Dwarf redeemed the Succubus. Excellent idea.
(2) The Dwarf has been ordered not to kill the Succubus.
(3) The Dwarf has very good evidence that the Succubus isn't actually Evil.

Anything less, and the Dwarf is just going to smite the Succubus on general principles. Honest.

pingcode20
2009-01-15, 01:14 AM
The real problem isn't that the Dwarf is a Paladin, it's that he's a Paladin of St. Cuthbert. That dude smites first and asks questions never. As I see it you have three options:

(1) The Dwarf redeemed the Succubus. Excellent idea.
(2) The Dwarf has been ordered not to kill the Succubus.
(3) The Dwarf has very good evidence that the Succubus isn't actually Evil.

Anything less, and the Dwarf is just going to smite the Succubus on general principles. Honest.

Yeah, that's pretty much the big problem there. Ol' Cuthie isn't one much for listening.

It takes a fair bit of wrangling of rules and circumstance to make it work, but that's why I've been suggesting actually rigging the circumstances to some extent.

Maybe hit the rules once or twice. Or twenty times.

Frosty
2009-01-15, 01:43 AM
How it should be and how it would be in one of my campaigns. If a demon becomes Lawful Good they do not cease to exist! Instead that demon becomes an Archorn or angel with the physical appearance and non-Evil powers of a demon.

A redeemed succubus is basically a statuesque angel with shiny black leathery wings, small bright-red horns and a bifurcated tail with a fondness for consensual sex. Just replace all Evil traits and powers for Good ones give her restoration as an at will touch based power instead of energy drain. Talk about sexual healing. The party paladin wouldn't mind at all. I should shut up right now.

She hasn't taken any levels in Sacred Prostitute...


Maybe hit the rules once or twice. Or twenty times.
Taking twenty I see :smallbiggrin:

trehek
2009-01-15, 01:48 AM
Isn't "The succubus charmed the pants off the dwarf ages ago" the obvious solution here? After the dwarf got charmed, the succubus encouraged him to cast detect good & law on her, giving him enough doubt not to smite her. Then she encouraged him to keep an eye on her to further confirm her good intentions. Maybe he's been at it for a while and he's finally convinced.

Talic
2009-01-15, 01:49 AM
The succubus could be Redeemed (per BoED).

The paladin could be put in a position where he has no reason to doubt her integrity. For example, if she is introduced by his church as a holy warrior of xxx.

Frosty
2009-01-15, 02:17 AM
Isn't "The succubus charmed the pants off the dwarf ages ago" the obvious solution here? After the dwarf got charmed, the succubus encouraged him to cast detect good & law on her, giving him enough doubt not to smite her. Then she encouraged him to keep an eye on her to further confirm her good intentions. Maybe he's been at it for a while and he's finally convinced.

I highly doubt a Charm Person could've worked. The DC isn't *that* high, and the Dward has +2 to saves vs Spells and SLAs, and also Divine Grace, and Force of Personality feat (CHA vs Mind-Affecting).


The paladin could be put in a position where he has no reason to doubt her integrity. For example, if she is introduced by his church as a holy warrior of xxx.
That'd defeat the whole point of the journey, if she were already at the end.

hamishspence
2009-01-15, 01:45 PM
Problem with BoED way is the Sanctify the Wicked spell doesn't work on Outsiders with the Evil subtype, and the Redeem use of diplomacy doesn't work either.

Basically, if she changes, it will be entirely at her own will.

Pre-WOTC redeemed succubus, the game Planescape Torment had Fall-From-Grace, a non-evil succubus.

Also, in Dragon mag Wee-Jas article, Wee-Jas is served by a Succubus with the Lawful type (bestowed by the deity after succubus agreed)

so a deity could take away the Alignment subtype without killing the entity.

There is a way of proving an outsider is good even if its subtype isn't and you don't have Detect Good. Fiercebane weapon (DMG2). Upgrade to Bane weapons- it glows in presence of the creature. Good-outsider bane for choice. Result- it glows. And because its "Good Outsider" not "Outsider with the Good type" it shows her actual alignment.

Doesn't work for Neutral outsiders though.

Basically, I take the view- Ignore BoVD's "allowing a fiend to exist, let alone working with one, is an evil act" Not least because it makes visiting cities like Sigil or Union where fiends can peacefully walk around and buy things, a pain if you actually have to attack it if its near.

Tacoma
2009-01-15, 01:56 PM
A deity could cast a hundred Call Lightning spells at once and decide after the fact whether he should have spent a Free Action or a Swift Action on it and what it should smell like. At that point you're pretty much beyond the rules and it becomes DM fiat. That's why it's particularly unsatisfying to have gods do stuff. At least if a Wizard did it, it's in the sphere of mortal affairs.

It really just comes down to inherent prejudice in D&D. All dwarves don't like all elves? All surface elves don't like all drow elves? Gnomes get bonuses to attack Goblins?! And all creatures from Location X (on another plane, but still just a place) are always evil and not only can be attacked without reprecussion but it's almost required to attack them!

It is kind of weird.

Prometheus
2009-01-15, 02:27 PM
Lawfully, the Succubus and the Dwarf are married to each other. :smallbiggrin:
Actually, the Catholic Church used to have a tradition of marrying off harlots so that they would prevent premarital sex from occurring. Of course, they didn't keep tabs on the people so the marriages were only really nominal. The Dwarf might take it seriously however, and if a the Church really reformed the succubus into a Paladin, than she might go with it as well. Read Erendira

I still like the Malconvoker being the reason the succubus is good however. He tricked her into using some sort of magic item (Helm of Opposite Alignment?) so that he could work with her without fighting against her will. Of course, what he didn't count on was for her to get kicked out and go to the Dwarf for help, whom she had heard was trying to help the Hellbred Beguiler and who is good friends with the aasimar malconvoker (as already mentioned).

hamishspence
2009-01-15, 02:30 PM
deities can be used as DM fiat, but if using Deities and Demigods sourcebook, they have limitations to follow and cannot do some things.

Not every creature from the Lower Planes is a fiend.

Ironically "fiendish creatures" are not fiends at all. They aren't Outsiders and don't have the Evil subtype.

So if you ran into a "fiendish human" from the Abyss, you wouldn't be looking at a true fiend, but if you ran into a vrock, you would.

Frosty
2009-01-15, 08:29 PM
Actually, the Catholic Church used to have a tradition of marrying off harlots so that they would prevent premarital sex from occurring. Of course, they didn't keep tabs on the people so the marriages were only really nominal. The Dwarf might take it seriously however, and if a the Church really reformed the succubus into a Paladin, than she might go with it as well. Read Erendira

I still like the Malconvoker being the reason the succubus is good however. He tricked her into using some sort of magic item (Helm of Opposite Alignment?) so that he could work with her without fighting against her will. Of course, what he didn't count on was for her to get kicked out and go to the Dwarf for help, whom she had heard was trying to help the Hellbred Beguiler and who is good friends with the aasimar malconvoker (as already mentioned).

Kicked out? From where

kamikasei
2009-01-16, 03:58 AM
Kicked out? From where

The Abyss? For being good?

Talic
2009-01-16, 04:23 AM
That'd defeat the whole point of the journey, if she were already at the end.

Doesn't mean it would need to be TRUE. Just that she were introduced as such. A decent charm/bluff could pull such a feat off.

That said, if you take that tack, option 2:

There is one exception to the paladin clause of being unable to associate with evil. For the express purpose of redemption.

Convince the succubus player to exhibit a shred of morality, something "un-evil", that would give a player cause to believe that redemption was possible. It may start as a transfer of her as a captive prisoner, and the paladin isn't associating directly with her, but rather transporting her to a member of the clergy who can better ascertain her purpose and motives on the prime material. During the time of the adventure, there is much opportunity to roleplay towards redemption (even a potential for "succubus has the opportunity to escape but doesn't" or "succubus assists in bailing out the party from imminent danger" schticks), and provides the paladin just reason to not immediately run or whack.

The opportunity for the paladin to associate with the succubus for purposes of redemption come after the succubus begins to question the evil she's followed. The questioning comes after the group shows the succubus the strengths that lie in mercy, companionship, and helping each other. The paladin may save a party member, adn accept the surrender and aid of an NPC they were fighting. When succubus derides that as weakness, it could simply be pointed out that they are 5 people. Without saving their companion, they would be 4, and without the mercy of surrender, they would not have found the faster route through the treacherous pass / etc. From the point of questioning the strength of evil, comes evaluating the merits of good... Which is the beginning of conversion. Understanding.

Murderous Hobo
2009-01-16, 05:06 AM
Demons are made from the very ESSENSE of the Abyss, the stuff of chaos and evil. If a succubus ceased having the Evil and Chaotic subtypes, then she'd literally cease to exist. The essense of evil and chaos is what composes her body/soul (one and the same for outsiders).

Hi! Me and my friends from the association of you-wouldn't-let-that-get-in-the-way-complex-characters would like to introduce you to Fall-from-Grace (http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/pc/planescape/characters.shtml#grace).

Frosty
2009-01-16, 10:56 AM
Doesn't mean it would need to be TRUE. Just that she were introduced as such. A decent charm/bluff could pull such a feat off.

That said, if you take that tack, option 2:

There is one exception to the paladin clause of being unable to associate with evil. For the express purpose of redemption.

Convince the succubus player to exhibit a shred of morality, something "un-evil", that would give a player cause to believe that redemption was possible. It may start as a transfer of her as a captive prisoner, and the paladin isn't associating directly with her, but rather transporting her to a member of the clergy who can better ascertain her purpose and motives on the prime material. During the time of the adventure, there is much opportunity to roleplay towards redemption (even a potential for "succubus has the opportunity to escape but doesn't" or "succubus assists in bailing out the party from imminent danger" schticks), and provides the paladin just reason to not immediately run or whack.

The opportunity for the paladin to associate with the succubus for purposes of redemption come after the succubus begins to question the evil she's followed. The questioning comes after the group shows the succubus the strengths that lie in mercy, companionship, and helping each other. The paladin may save a party member, adn accept the surrender and aid of an NPC they were fighting. When succubus derides that as weakness, it could simply be pointed out that they are 5 people. Without saving their companion, they would be 4, and without the mercy of surrender, they would not have found the faster route through the treacherous pass / etc. From the point of questioning the strength of evil, comes evaluating the merits of good... Which is the beginning of conversion. Understanding.

So there needs to be an entire adventure just to introduce the succubus you're saying?