SCIENCE! Medical Science, in fact!

[Eldritch_Ent]

Lately I've been pretty depressed, what with the mounting debt of our society, and the general unpleasentness of life.

However, one thing that does have me rather pleased is some of the rather drastic developments happening in the last few years in medical technology. I'm not talking quack cures like Colloidal Silver, or DMSO. I'm talking actual medical sciences, currently in development that have a real chance of drastically increasing our life spans.

Medicine to treat neurological diseases, like PBT2 to treat Alzheimers.

Medicines that clear out people's arteries, and tiny machines that run on biocurrents and can restart your heart.

Stem Cells to treat Blindness and Deafness and Tooth Loss.

Cloning Individual Organs, for an infinite supply of transplants that don't require lifetime Immunosuppression to work.

Injecting Antibody-covered Gold particles into someone, then shooting Radio Waves through them to cure cancer... (Invented by a guy without a medical degree, no less.)

I love the march of progress! Even if these are all pipe dreams, each failed project just tells us what we need to be able to do to actually fix it. Each step teaches us more.

Cunning new applications of old medicines and devices with new information and technology.

Does anyone else have any uplifting news items like these? Of promising research projects being done that look like they could, in fact, work?

[Rutskarn]

I recently followed, with interest, the advent of bionic limbs. There are now practical, if unaffordable, limbs that can be manipulated mentally.

Go team Science!

[afroakuma]

I was pleased to see some progress in the field of human assistive exoskeletons to restore a semblance of autonomy to those who can no longer walk. They look ridiculous, but they seem to be getting rave reviews.

[Rettu Skcollob]

Nevertheless, I wake up every morning with a: "Where's my goddamn flying car?"

[Canadian]

Thanks to universal healthcare I get my medical science for free.

[afroakuma]

There are at least four in development and relatively close to production.

Canadian: also Canadian, so ditto. :smallsmile:

[Rutskarn]

Except flying cars aren't really a good idea.

a.) If they break down, you're really screwed.

b.) People are terrible drivers in two dimensions.

c.) Those things can not be fuel efficient.

[Copacetic]

Except flying cars aren't really a good idea.

a.) If they break down, you're really screwed.

b.) People are terrible drivers in two dimensions.

c.) Those things can not be fuel efficient.

A) Ditto to planes, people use them all the time

B) Less things to crash into

C) Neither are monster trucks, yet people drive them anyway.

[Rutskarn]

A) Ditto to planes, people use them all the time

B) Less things to crash into

C) Neither are monster trucks, yet people drive them anyway.

A) And they have to be rigorously examined with frequency impractical for day-to-day personal use.

B) Not when the sky is full of cars, there won't be.

C) Not to work and the grocery store.

[Rettu Skcollob]

Except flying cars aren't really a good idea.

a.) If they break down, you're really screwed.

b.) People are terrible drivers in two dimensions.

c.) Those things can not be fuel efficient.

When has Humanity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards) ever striven for anything sensible?

[Rutskarn]

Never said they wouldn't be implemented. Just said they were riotously stupid.

That's almost a guarantee, really.

28th Amendment: The Right to Bear Flying Death Machines.

[Canadian]

I've heard you'd have to do some pretty terrible things to get a flying car.

Plus hitchhiking would be incredibly dangerous.

[SDF]

Injecting Antibody-covered Gold particles into someone, then shooting Radio Waves through them to cure cancer... (Invented by a guy without a medical degree, no less.)

Probably by a REAL doctor. Someone with a Ph.D, and not one of those hokey MDs you hear about.

I work in a biochemistry lab at my Uni, and have worked on antibiotics, gene markers, and our lab just got a big grant for a West Nile Virus vaccine, which we will be working on for the next year or so until done.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

There are at least four in development and relatively close to production.

Canadian: also Canadian, so ditto. :smallsmile:

also also Canadian, so ditto.

And, Canadian? I like your posts. Normally it takes newcomers a little while to the quality Playgrounders expect posts to be in, but you seem to have taken to the writing quickly, which makes me happy! Especially when I decide to go back to my earliest posts, and want to slap myself...

[afroakuma]

Cheers to the Canadians and Canadian! :smallamused:

I should totally start a Canadians in the Playground thread.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Probably by a REAL doctor. Someone with a Ph.D, and not one of those hokey MDs you hear about.

I work in a biochemistry lab at my Uni, and have worked on antibiotics, gene markers, and our lab just got a big grant for a West Nile Virus vaccine, which we will be working on for the next year or so until done.

Nope! By a guy whose only background was in broadcasting/communications and business. Here's his website! http://www.kanziuscancerresearch.com/

West Nile? Are you by any chance working in a Utah research college? Did they ever actually find out if that virus did anything? :smalltongue: I'm not talking down to you, I live in Utah and am actually curious.

[Serpentine]

We have a vaccine for cancer. A vaccine for freaking cancer. Okay, so technically it's a vaccine for a virus that causes a cancer (specifically, cervical cancer), but still! A vaccine for cancer!
Young women of the world: Hurry up and enjoy this medical miracle!

[Rutskarn]

also also
And, Canadian? I like your posts. Normally it takes newcomers a little while to the quality Playgrounders expect posts to be in, but you seem to have taken to the writing quickly, which makes me happy! Especially when I decide to go back to my earliest posts, and want to slap myself...

Oh, I'm the same way. I was such a young, blustering, long-winded fool, all those...less than a month ago.

Actually, I guess I kinda still am. Especially long-winded.

...

Moving on. I hadn't heard of that whole vaccine thing--that's pretty awesome. Actually, all the stuff in this thread is pretty awesome--kudos to the OP for making a thread that doesn't make me want to listen to slow, sad music in a dark room while slapping myself with a haddock.

[Extra_Crispy]

I love all these new advances, medical science is making leaps and bounds, but I would like to point out some of the very medical devices and medications that we take for granted.

Dialysis machines. We have a machine that using a bath of electrolytes "cleans" your blood, removes water, and allows someone to live without kidney function. Agreed it can be inproved with cloneing a kidney for the person but these machines have been around for a long time saving people.

The HUGE amount of medications used for specifically one purpose. Some have side effects (ok most) but a medication to raise someones BP when they are septic, thus keeping them allive untill the HUGE amount of antibiotics out there kills the bug. The amount of antibiotics that are for specific infections is staggering.

Other devices that I think are really nice but most people dont even think of. Stents. They go in and expand a vessel in a cardiac artery then put in a strainer (basically) that keeps the vessel open. All of this through an artery in your groin. Or how about a swan-gaz (sp?) cathater. This gem is a series of lines that goes through a vein (near your neck) and into the heart. Without explaining everything you are able to use this to determine the output of both halfs of the heart individually, where there is a fault, why things are backing up, and actually see throungh the lungs (not really see but get readings) to determine how the left half of the heart is working.

The medical advances (espically that RF cancer cure) are truely amasing but I still find the stuff we have now amasing also, and I work with it alot.

[Icewalker]

Yeah...good to see science move along. Certainly enough people making progress on cancer research. My dad recently was inducted into the National Academy of Sciences, as were numerous others for that year. At the ceremony, they gave a quick couple-sentence summary of the works that each person did. About half the people there had, in some way, shape, or form, done something that will help move towards curing cancer.

[Eldritch_Ent]

The medical advances (espically that RF cancer cure) are truely amasing but I still find the stuff we have now amasing also, and I work with it alot.

That one's my favorite too, but I agree with your entire post. What we have so far, compared to what we used to have, is drastically improved. I mean, Diabetes Patients used to have to boil their urine to find out what their blood sugar was the day before, then guess how much insulin they'd have to take that day in their hand-sharpened hollow glass syringes...

Nevermind Prosthetic Legs, Iron Lungs, Antibiotics, Pacemakers, Wheelchairs, Ambulances, Defibrillators, the Heimlech Maneuver, CPR...

We're able to make *Digital Eyes* for people. Essentially, tiny cameras mounted on glasses that are hooked to a microchip in the back of their brain, where their retinas would be. It lets them tell basic shapes, light, and color of things. No fine detail, but we're working on it.

I mean, just mind-machine interfaces like that alone, combined with the internet, would mean totally Paralyzed People- even if their uncurable through the recent wonders of stem cells- would at least be able to communicate with, and even entertain themselves at. a computer via signals sent directly from their brains.

Stem cells are also great. (Too bad there's apparently opposition to research with them. Come on, they're awesome!) - We can use them to treat Paralysis and all sorts of things.It means transplants of lots of trickier things may be possible in the future, since one of the main things science hasn't ever been able to do until recently is repair or help regrow damaged nerves. However, we've been able to do so to a degree with Stem Cells.I mean, theoretically if we could get blood-brain flow reestablished fast enough in someone whose head had been removed from their body, we could *cure Decapitation*! Of course that's highly dependent on response time, But still!

[Eldan]

My current favourite?

Artificial retinas. They made them for cats. However, I just can't find that article describign it. Basically they took blind cats and made them see again.

And people still don't believe me when I tell them we already have cyborgs. For decades, now.

[Zeful]

A) And they have to be rigorously examined with frequency impractical for day-to-day personal use.

B) Not when the sky is full of cars, there won't be.

C) Not to work and the grocery store.

A) Except the tests for both the Personal pilot's and the A class driver's license both require these examinations. Said examinations are a large majority of the tests (but then so is everything else).

B) The sky won't be full of cars. Most people won't qualify for the license to let them taxi it down a runway, let alone fly it.

C) Many cars are meant for 20+ mile trips. The only vehicles which is efficient on the above scale are bicycles and some electronic scooters.

[KnightDisciple]

.....
Stem cells are also great. (Too bad there's apparently opposition to research with them. Come on, they're awesome!) - We can use them to treat Paralysis and all sorts of things.It means transplants of lots of trickier things may be possible in the future, since one of the main things science hasn't ever been able to do until recently is repair or help regrow damaged nerves. However, we've been able to do so to a degree with Stem Cells.I mean, theoretically if we could get blood-brain flow reestablished fast enough in someone whose head had been removed from their body, we could *cure Decapitation*! Of course that's highly dependent on response time, But still!

Um, the opposition is with Embryonic Stem Cells. Stem cells from things like the intestines, mouth, etc., and from the placenta and umibilical cord have really no one opposing them. And they have just as much, if not more, potential. I won't go further due to board rules.

On the assistive exoskeleton: I actually saw that in...either my Pop Sci, or on CNN.com. Too lazy to check. But yeah, that was awesome. It looks a bit corny, but if I were paralyzed, I wouldn't give a rip about that. Right now they need crutches/canes/some sort of supportive assist. Right now. Give it a few years. A few more, and we may have full-body paralysis assist machines. Meanwhile, I'm sure other research will be working on things that'll either help the damage be cured, or maybe internally bypass it with some electronic gizmo.
I've also always found the "surgery on your heart through a leg vein" bit really nifty too.

[Thanatos 51-50]

My current favourite?

Artificial retinas. They made them for cats. However, I just can't find that article describign it. Basically they took blind cats and made them see again.

And people still don't believe me when I tell them we already have cyborgs. For decades, now.

Technically, anyone wearing glasses is a cyborg, as they have a mechanical enhancement to their natural human parameters. Ditto people with pacemakers, artifical heart, pegs legs, , et. cetera, but reading about these bionic limbs and digital eyes/artifical retinas makes my little cyberpunk fanboy heart weep tears of blood and joy.

Pure joy. Distilled with blood.
Casue, you know, the heart just pumps blood...

Yeah.........

[Serpentine]

I'm a cyborg, wooooo! :biggrin:

[Thanatos 51-50]

I'm a cyborg, wooooo! :biggrin:

There are two responses to this:

Response A:
Your level fo sexiness just jumped ten percent simply for being a cyborg

Response B:
So is the rest of my family. I'm the only non-cyborg in my family. Its rather sad, really.

I'm torn. You get both responses.

[Serpentine]

I feel your conflicted pain. I get that a lot.

[13_CBS]

I'm a cyborg, wooooo! :biggrin:

So, when the Machine Revolt finally happens, which side will you choose? Ours...or theirs? :smallamused:

DUN DUN dun

[hamishspence]

I think, but am not certain, that the preferred use of Cybernetics is for an artificial device that actually makes decisions, using its software, and acts on the body- a person with that kind of cybernetics might be a cyborg

A peg-leg doesn't do that.

A cochlear implant, and to a much lesser extent, a pacemaker, does.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Ehem, lets see if I remeber how to write a proof.

Part A)
Definition of Cyorg:
Any animal who has a mechanical addition to their body in at attempt to repair or oversome physical or mental constraints.:

Therefore:
Prosthetic limbs are considered a cybernetic enchanment, being a mechanical repair performed on the body to voercome their limitations.

PART B)
A peg leg is an extremly primitive form of a prosthetic limb.

Therefore
__________________ (Fill in the blank)

[Dallas-Dakota]

Lately I've been pretty depressed, what with the mounting debt of our society, and the general unpleasentness of life.
You do know that not everybody is American(I prefer the term USAlien:smalltongue:) on these boards, right?

We dutchies might look like we're also getting a part of the failing world economy. But the truth is, we're not, that extra part go's to our secret underwater society.....Drat, I shoulda nae have said that. *flees*

[hamishspence]

the Shorter Oxford Dictionery refers to cybernetics as the "science of control and communications in living beings and machines."

It also calls a cyborg "an integrated man-machine system"

A peg leg does not communicate with the body, sending messages and receiving them.

Nor does it really exert direct control over nerves, muscles, etc.

Yes, extra-wide definitions of cyborg cover glasses, peg-legs, hook-hands, technology dating back a thousand or more years.

But are they as helpful as the narrower definition?

(see wikipedia, which stresses that glasses, wooden legs, hearing aids, don't really count, whereas pacemakers, cochlear implants, and some other things do)

[Thanatos 51-50]

But the truth is, we're not, that extra part go's to our secret underwater society.....Drat, I shoulda nae have said that. *flees*

I see what you did there, not-citizen.
All you monies is belong to us.

/me steals the secret underwatersociety money FOR GREAT inJUSTICE!


the Shorter Oxford Dictionery refers to cybernetics as the "science of control and communications in living beings and machines."

It also calls a cyborg "an integrated man-machine system"

A peg leg does not communicate with the body, sending messages and receiving them.
Nor does it really exert direct control over nerves, muscles, etc.

Yes, extra-wide definitions of cyborg cover glasses, peg-legs, hook-hands, technology dating back a thousand or more years.

But are they as helpful as the narrower definition?

(see wikipedia, which stresses that glasses, wooden legs, hearing aids, don't really count, whereas pacemakers, cochlear implants, and some other things do)

No, they're not. I'm just being both pretentious and a jerk. When speaking about sybernetics, I usually list them off as "modern", Exrtemly primitive", or "Advanced", because I'm a jerk like that.

[UnChosenOne]

I'm a cyborg, wooooo! :biggrin:

Congratulations. You must be proud about that. Hopely you are also proud about fact that your kind will kill (by the holocaust) most of us real human's in course of next few centuries (how was it writen???).

And about cancer cure. So this will meen that we will have a virus that is immune to it.

[Canadian]

Some day we won't see legless homeless people dragging themselves around the subway on skateboards saying "I have no legs... I have no legs..."

That makes me kind of sad. I always thought the skateboard thing was kind of awesome. Even though it is cruel and awful for the legless homeless man.

I like the skateboard...

Although a skateboarding cyborg homeless person doing a 360 reverse dump truck off a rail would be even more awesome!

[Serpentine]

And about cancer cure. So this will meen that we will have a virus that is immune to it.Not necessarily. Depends how quickly it mutates. We need a new flu vaccine every winter because it tends to mutate in that time, but if the genital wart virus/es that cause/s cervical cancer is relatively stable, then the vaccine should work for a pretty long time. In any case, I'm pretty damn certain that it's a lot easier to alter a vaccine than it is to come up with it in the first place.
More importantly, this vaccine only deals with something like the 3 most common viruses, there's still a number of others that can cause cervical cancer, just less often.

[Telonius]

I love scientific advances! I'd be out of a job otherwise (I work at a science journal ...)

[Thanatos 51-50]

And about cancer cure. So this will meen that we will have a virus that is immune to it.

Depends on the virus in question.
Understand here that I'm using a gross oversmplification, here.

DNA viruses - that is, viruses with a DNA core - are stable and relativly unchanging, whereas RNA viruses - one wth an RNA core - rapidly mutate.

Vaccines work b giving the body what basically amounts to target pratcie, introducing a "dead" virus into the system so that the bod's cells can attack it and produce the proper anitibodies.

DNA viruses are susceptable, as the antibody doesn't really change, as the virus, itself doesn't change. Rapidly-changing RNA viruses, however prove to be somewhat immune due to their rapid mutations countering the body's ability to dredge up the proper antibodies beforehand.

[Eldritch_Ent]

And about cancer cure. So this will meen that we will have a virus that is immune to it.

Not really. So long as something has antibody receptors of any sort, (Or some targetable feature), this technique could possibly work on it. Even HIV has Antigens, (Problem being it feeds off people's white blood cells, so really it just helps progress the disease faster.), so Theoretically we could mark these gold particles with HIV antibodies and use it to fight that disease as well.

Of course, keep in mind that if this actually DOES cure cancer and/or HIV, suddenly there will be a lot more research going into other things like Lou Gherig's Disease, or curing Heart Disease.

A person doesn't die of old age- old age just makes them more susceptible to cancer or heart disease and things. If we know hot to fix (or at least reliably treat) all these less likely options, theoretically we could keep someone alive forever. (And if we just cure Heart Disease and Cancer, that'll drastically increase people's living ages, working ages, and general quality of life.)

[Dallas-Dakota]

Medicine fastens up virus evolution and slows ours.

[Zeful]

Medicine fastens up virus evolution and slows ours.

Medicine only serves to weaken your immune system. When there was a flu vaccine shortage a couple of years ago, fewer people complained of flulike symptoms than in years where the vaccine was available to the entire public. It's just not worth it.

[SDF]

West Nile? Are you by any chance working in a Utah research college? Did they ever actually find out if that virus did anything? :smalltongue: I'm not talking down to you, I live in Utah and am actually curious.

Idaho. The virus has a 15% mortality rate due to encephalitis, but most people get it and don't know it. Actually we are developing it more for animals than people, as animals like birds and horses are suffering a lot more from it than people are. There is still a good chance it will be recommended for certain, "at risk" groups like the elderly.


Um, the opposition is with Embryonic Stem Cells. Stem cells from things like the intestines, mouth, etc., and from the placenta and umibilical cord have really no one opposing them. And they have just as much, if not more, potential.

It isn't that they have more potential, but they have more immediate use because with their level of differentiation we can utilize them better now. With embryonic stem cells there is almost no differentiation, so they have an almost unlimited potential. The largest obstacle right now is, that without specific stimuli that causes them to naturally differentiate, getting them to do what you want without them mutating and becoming cancerous is difficult.


A person doesn't die of old age- old age just makes them more susceptible to cancer or heart disease and things. If we know hot to fix (or at least reliably treat) all these less likely options, theoretically we could keep someone alive forever. (And if we just cure Heart Disease and Cancer, that'll drastically increase people's living ages, working ages, and general quality of life.)

It is more complicated than that though. Each time a cell replicates it cuts off peptides of the telomere sequence until it doesn't have enough peptides at the end and the cell dies, causing [the disease of] aging. Cancer requires about seven mutations on a specific system to begin forming a tumor and replicating. Some of these mutations accumulate over the course of a lifetime, while others can be a result of replication mutation as a result of aging. So one doesn't die from aging any more than they die from diabetes, they just die from complications of the, "disease."


Not necessarily. Depends how quickly it mutates. We need a new flu vaccine every winter because it tends to mutate in that time, but if the genital wart virus/es that cause/s cervical cancer is relatively stable, then the vaccine should work for a pretty long time. In any case, I'm pretty damn certain that it's a lot easier to alter a vaccine than it is to come up with it in the first place.
More importantly, this vaccine only deals with something like the 3 most common viruses, there's still a number of others that can cause cervical cancer, just less often.

I remember when the HPV vaccine first came out and mothers didn't want to vaccinate their children because of reason (blank). I wanted to punch them... same with the ones that refuse to get their children vaccinated in general.

With the flu there are two major strains that come about each year. (influenza a and influenza b, others do exist) The CDC and other health organizations make their best scientific guess as to which strain will be prevalent. Sometimes BOTH occur but one is usually endemic to local areas in that instance. I'm sure at least a few of you remember the flu vaccine shortage a few years ago. That was because they chose the wrong strain to make a vaccine for, in addition to a few other SNAFUs that occurred that year.

[Innis Cabal]

I've heard a lower rate of death for West Nile, and only 1% of mosquites carry it, at least here in the Mid West, it might be different further out.

As for vaccines and medicine, stop supplying them to children and see how fast your infant mortality rate goes up. And for other proof, look at under developed countries, diseases that are uncommon or not that bad in developed countries are far higher in their mortality rates.

Medicine is good, needless vaccines are bad. There is a major difference.

[Arioch]

On-topic: Yeah, medical science is awesome, and is one of the reasons I get to angry when people start insisting the old days were better. No they weren't, because you were almost guarenteed to die of something awful, with no competent medical treatment available.

I'm a full organ donor, so if I die my body can be neatly parcelled out to others who need it. I think everyone should donate if they can.

I'm particularly excited about all the new things that might be done with stem cells.

Re viruses and vaccines: I think vaccines are incredibly important, but should not be overused. This applies tenfold to antibiotics, which were so overused in the years after their invention (in Britain, at least) that resistance to them rocketed.

Off-topic:

A) Except the tests for both the Personal pilot's and the A class driver's license both require these examinations. Said examinations are a large majority of the tests (but then so is everything else).

B) The sky won't be full of cars. Most people won't qualify for the license to let them taxi it down a runway, let alone fly it.

C) Many cars are meant for 20+ mile trips. The only vehicles which is efficient on the above scale are bicycles and some electronic scooters.

A) Difficult though the driving test is held to be, I suspect qualifying to be a pilot is harder. When people talk about flying cars, they usually mean commercially-available ones, which means the test would have to be sat by a lot of people.
B) See above regarding commercial availability.
C) Fair enough.

What I see as the killing blow to the idea of a commercial flying car is: Who would insure it? And how much would it cost? I mean, if the thing stalls, it falls: quite high-risk, especially for newer drivers. It's simply not commercially viable.

[Dallas-Dakota]

I'm a full organ donor, so if I die my body can be neatly parcelled out to others who need it. I think everyone should donate if they can.

Except people like me who have been taking medicines since they were young and don't have great and healthy bodies.

[Canadian]

In olden times people didn't go to the doctor. They went to the barber. The same guy who gives haircuts. He'd give a diagnosis based upon superstition. Then he'd put the leaches on you. A lot of people died during this time. After a while dentists were the doctors. I like the current modern setup. I'm perfectly fine with modern medicine. Modern technology is great. You know it wasn't that long ago that dentists used a foot powered drill and no anesthetic.

[Zeful]

I'm particularly excited about all the new things that might be done with stem cells. There was a thing about taking donor hearts and removing the tissue (leaving the scaffolding) and using undamaged heart tissue from the donor to create a new heart without the need for immune suppression.


Re viruses and vaccines: I think vaccines are incredibly important, but should not be overused. This applies tenfold to antibiotics, which were so overused in the years after their invention (in Britain, at least) that resistance to them rocketed.You should only need a vaccine once so your body knows what the hell it's supposed to fight, after that it only seems to make stuff worse. I'd rather not coddle my immune system.

[SDF]

I've heard a lower rate of death for West Nile, and only 1% of mosquites carry it, at least here in the Mid West, it might be different further out.

The initial middle east outbreak had a 15% mortality rate. The numbers can vary greatly depending on age, (elderly have a MUCH higher chance of getting bad symptoms, encephalitis, and dying -same with young children, but not as bad as the elderly) overall health, (Americans tend to be healthier and have access to better care than the initial outbreak areas... aside from the part where almost 3/4 of us are overweight or worse :smallsigh:) and the strain. Most of my papers on it concern use of working with and modifying existing vaccines and developing different kinds of vaccines for it, I couldn't really address the actual number of mosquitoes that have it. I know it isn't all that many as over the last 5 years we've only had about 10 deaths a year attributed to it. Again, it is more of a target for animals, and a preventative measure in case of outbreak.


Medicine only serves to weaken your immune system. When there was a flu vaccine shortage a couple of years ago, fewer people complained of flulike symptoms than in years where the vaccine was available to the entire public. It's just not worth it.

Well there are medicines that weaken your immune system as a side effect such as chemotherapy, the alternative generally sucks. There are also medicines that bolster your immune system such as antibiotics and vaccines. But as a general statement it is kind of ridiculous with no substantive backing by the CDC, WHO, or any major health organization. While I've never heard or seen any reports that there were less complaints during the flu shortage I wont dismiss it outright, but would question the methodology of how that conclusion was reached. Were there less complaints because when given the flu vaccine many people exhibit flu like symptoms? Many do, but they are a result of the body fighting off the injected virus, which is where you get the immunity. These symptoms are mild and much shorter lived than if the flu virus itself was contracted. And, unlike the flu, the vaccine will not kill you. It is absolutely worth it to develop these vaccines and other biomedical treatments. Which is why it is important to develop a vaccine for avian flu, a strain of Influenza A. If we don't it could kill millions. Remember World War I, the war to end all wars that killed an entire generation? At the same time the Spanish Flu, another strain of Influenza A, went pandemic killing upwards of a hundred million people. More than twice as many people that died in the war. Imagine how many people could have been saved with the right vaccine, or how many could be saved during the next pandemic?

[Serpentine]

Medicine only serves to weaken your immune system. When there was a flu vaccine shortage a couple of years ago, fewer people complained of flulike symptoms than in years where the vaccine was available to the entire public. It's just not worth it.For the first bit, bulldung. See below. For the latter, what SDF said, but also the flu vaccines are meant to prevent the really really bad, life-threatening bouts. That's why old people are always urged to get it. I'd like to compare the number of really bad bouts of flu in those years, not just the "flulike symptoms" which are an acknowledged side-effect of the vaccine.


You should only need a vaccine once so your body knows what the hell it's supposed to fight, after that it only seems to make stuff worse. I'd rather not coddle my immune system.Most vaccines are only taken once. Others require booster shots, or wear off after a while. That's just the way it is, regardless of "coddling". Believe me, I am very much against "coddling" the human body. Germs are good for the immune system! Kids should eat dirt! Antibiotics should absolutely be used sparingly! I'm absolutely disgusted at all the antiseptic household products available. "Hospital-grade antiseptic toilet cleaner!" Hospitals have to be sterile. You know what sterile hospitals have? Golden Staph. You really don't want that in your house.
That said, vaccines have pretty much totally eliminated polio and smallpox from anywhere they've been used. At least in the case of polio, this isn't like something you get a bit sick from then get over. This is a permanently debilitating disease.

As for vaccines and medicine, stop supplying them to children and see how fast your infant mortality rate goes up. And for other proof, look at under developed countries, diseases that are uncommon or not that bad in developed countries are far higher in their mortality rates.I'm with my mother on the distribution of money to charities: It's better to concentrate your money on curing curable diseases that are simply going uncured because of economics (e.g. malaria and smallpox in majority world countries) than diseases that have no cure (e.g. cancer) and/or are largely brought on/treatable through human activities (e.g. lung cancer, heart disease), especially when the latter two have money thrown at them all over the place.
I think it's pretty disgusting that polio, smallpox and malaria are running rampant in poor places when there are easily-available cures.
On-topic: Yeah, medical science is awesome, and is one of the reasons I get to angry when people start insisting the old days were better. No they weren't, because you were almost guarenteed to die of something awful, with no competent medical treatment available.My medieval European history lecturer gets calls from religious groups and the like. Sometimes, after a bit of chit-chat, they lead into "isn't the world terrible today? All this war and famine and nuclear weapons and social isolations and blah blah blah...". He always replies with "nooooo... actually, we've got it pretty good. We have great medical advancements, penicilin, lowest infant mortality ever, near-universal education, no crusades to worry about, no plague, we're not all serfs..."
I like that lecturer :smallbiggrin:

Which is why it is important to develop a vaccine for avian flu, a strain of Influenza A. If we don't it could kill millions. Remember World War I, the war to end all wars that killed an entire generation? At the same time the Spanish Flu, another strain of Influenza A, went pandemic killing upwards of a hundred million people. More than twice as many people that died in the war. Imagine how many people could have been saved with the right vaccine, or how many could be saved during the next pandemic?While it's always a good idea to be vigilant about all threats, don't you think it's a bit silly to get so worked up about a disease that can't even be transmitted between humans yet, and that won't necessarily ever be able to? I'm not quite that cynical, but Dr Mum reckons it's all a con by the drug companies: Anyone ever heard of those drugs before that big scare? The Spanish Flu's pretty damn scary, though

Ooooh, yes, the greatest medical development in all of history: HYGIENE! Nothing else has lowered disease and mortality levels so much as simply washing one's hands.

[hobbes543]

On the assistive exoskeleton: I actually saw that in...either my Pop Sci, or on CNN.com. Too lazy to check. But yeah, that was awesome. It looks a bit corny, but if I were paralyzed, I wouldn't give a rip about that. Right now they need crutches/canes/some sort of supportive assist. Right now. Give it a few years. A few more, and we may have full-body paralysis assist machines. Meanwhile, I'm sure other research will be working on things that'll either help the damage be cured, or maybe internally bypass it with some electronic gizmo.

My professor who advised me on my senior project developed a knee brace that uses a MRF (Magneto-Rheological Fluid) damper to control the movement allowed by the brace. MRF is a smart fluid that rapidly changes viscosity based on the presence of of a magnetic field. Another smart fluid that may be applied to this application is ERF (Electro-Rheological Fluid) which uses electric current to control the viscosity. ERF is better in that it is much easier to control an electric current than a magnetic field. Other work that is being done by his students is an active knee brace to be used as a gait trainer.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Admittedly, a kneebrace that used Magnetic Fields would also suck if you wandered too close to something with a Magnetic field of it's own. Wether this would cause your knee to completely lock up or go useless, I don't know, but either way it seems it would be really bad.

[UnChosenOne]

"isn't the world terrible today? All this war and famine and nuclear weapons and social isolations and blah blah blah...". He always replies with "nooooo... actually, we've got it pretty good. We have great medical advancements, penicilin, lowest infant mortality ever, near-universal education, no crusades to worry about, no plague, we're not all serfs..."


So again someone who don't see what we have lost by our good medical care.

Shall I tell what we have lost? We have lost our skill to die and accept it. And by lossing that we have lose lot of our humanity. People's should die in their home's not in hospitals. People's shouldn't be keep alive by necromancy after their brain's have stoped working. Euthanasia should be allowed for those who want it.

And about low infant mortality. Haven't you people's heard about overpopulation?

[thubby]

i saw an interesting article about using HIV's mutating properties to kill it.
and one on how hiv could be used to cure caner

hmmm...


So again someone who don't see what we have lost by our good medical care.

Shall I tell what we have lost? We have lost our skill to die and accept it. And by lossing that we have lose lot of our humanity. People's should die in their home's not in hospitals. People's shouldn't be keep alive by necromancy after their brain's have stoped working. Euthanasia should be allowed for those who want it.

humanity has never accepted death. men have chased immortality since before recorded history.
people can, and do, die in their own homes. living wills, DNRs, in home care, these things exist and are used. the problems i imagine you are thinking of stem from when someone doesn't have one, when medical science really isn't sure, or legal mumbo* jumbo needs to be untangled.


And about low infant mortality. Haven't you people's heard about overpopulation?
so people should just suffer and die then...

*apparently firefox** has a proper spelling for mumbo
**firefox doesn't know its own spelling

[hobbes543]

Admittedly, a kneebrace that used Magnetic Fields would also suck if you wandered too close to something with a Magnetic field of it's own. Wether this would cause your knee to completely lock up or go useless, I don't know, but either way it seems it would be really bad.

It would have to be a very strong magnetic field to actually interfere with the device. The physics governing magnetism show that the strength of the filed decreases with the square of the distance from the source of the field. So in everyday situations, there would be virtually no issues with that. An MRI machine would cause interference, but even the strongest magnets you would find on a regular basis, such as the magnets in hard drives would have their magnetic field drop off far too rapidly for them to cause issues unless they were placed directly on the device.

As further evidence of this, for the device my group created, we used an MRF damper as well as a polhemus sensor. A polhemus sensor uses magnetic fields to detect position and orientation with respect to a known source of a magnetic field. In our tests of the device, the magnetic field created by the MRF was not strong enough to interfere with the sensor system and the sensor system did not interfere with the MRF. They were about a foot apart. For comparison, a sizable piece of steel a few inches from the sensor creates a strong enough field to cause distortion in the sensors measurements.

Edit: Another note. We are surrounded by magnetic fields all the time. Any ferrous metals (Iron, most steels) will created their own magnetic field. Anything with an electrical current running through it, creates a magnetic field. The earth itself has its own magnetic field.

[Innis Cabal]

So again someone who don't see what we have lost by our good medical care.

Shall I tell what we have lost? We have lost our skill to die and accept it. And by lossing that we have lose lot of our humanity. People's should die in their home's not in hospitals. People's shouldn't be keep alive by necromancy after their brain's have stoped working. Euthanasia should be allowed for those who want it.

And about low infant mortality. Haven't you people's heard about overpopulation?

:smallconfused:

1. Necromancy isn't what you think it is outside of a fantasy perspective.
2. So you support the idea that we should stop using medicine and hospitals because it somehow breaks us away with our humanity? How does it do that? You get to live longer, thus you know....keep humanity going.
3. Yes i've heard of overpopulation, its a real big deal, but famine seems to do a great job with that, so does old age. So i'm not ultimatly worried, the best thing that comes out of it is we get to space faster in a search for more room. Everyone ones. :smallwink:


But in the end. Here's what it really comes down to. If you don't support it, then don't go running to it when your time's up, regardless of what is the cause. If you get a bad case of the flu and your dying? Don't go to the hospital. Those resources can go to someone that accepts them and appreciates them, and dosn't care about some evident lose of their humanity.

If you get uncurable cancer, don't you dare get medical treatment, thats some strange occult power thats keeping you alive longer then your time.

I for one will take the medical options open to me. More for me if you won't use em though :smallbiggrin:

[Raistlin1040]

Ehem, lets see if I remeber how to write a proof.

Part A)
Definition of Cyorg:
Any animal who has a mechanical addition to their body in at attempt to repair or oversome physical or mental constraints.:

Therefore:
Prosthetic limbs are considered a cybernetic enchanment, being a mechanical repair performed on the body to voercome their limitations.

PART B)
A peg leg is an extremly primitive form of a prosthetic limb.

Therefore
__________________ (Fill in the blank)

Cyborg Pirates!

[UnChosenOne]

:smallconfused:

1. Necromancy isn't what you think it is outside of a fantasy perspective.
2. So you support the idea that we should stop using medicine and hospitals because it somehow breaks us away with our humanity? How does it do that? You get to live longer, thus you know....keep humanity going.
3. Yes i've heard of overpopulation, its a real big deal, but famine seems to do a great job with that, so does old age. So i'm not ultimatly worried, the best thing that comes out of it is we get to space faster in a search for more room. Everyone ones. :smallwink:

1. Do we have proper term to this techonecromancy?
2. Is the human who live's longer than a posible by normal way's still a human or is (s)he something else? Is genetic engineered human still human? Is a cyborg still a human.
3. Overpopulation is already here and because mankind mostlikely won't colonize space we should do something about it (overpopulation).


But in the end. Here's what it really comes down to. If you don't support it, then don't go running to it when your time's up, regardless of what is the cause. If you get a bad case of the flu and your dying? Don't go to the hospital. Those resources can go to someone that accepts them and appreciates them, and dosn't care about some evident lose of their humanity.

So you seem's to think that the we should give longer life to 1st world's citizen's and forgot those who would actualy need medical treatment in 3rd world contries. Actualy all those money's that are spend to keep those who live in a 1st world healthy would be better used to get 3rd world to some shape not for longering our live's.



I for one will take the medical options open to me. More for me if you won't use em though :smallbiggrin:

Hopefully you will also be smiling when a humans that have live in sterile world die to some diase that our "heroes" can't heal.

And Innis Cabal could you tell how you see the future. Because by your post you seem's to belive to from a future where "we" all are healthy, rich and stuff.

And this H5N1 pandemic that peope's seem's to fear. Could somebody even rememder when somebody get it on 1st world.

[Serpentine]

So again someone who don't see what we have lost by our good medical care.

Shall I tell what we have lost? We have lost our skill to die and accept it. And by lossing that we have lose lot of our humanity. People's should die in their home's not in hospitals. People's shouldn't be keep alive by necromancy after their brain's have stoped working. Euthanasia should be allowed for those who want it.

And about low infant mortality. Haven't you people's heard about overpopulation?Please don't try to cast aspertions over what I do and do not see.
Personally, I think medicine should focus on improving quality of life, not its length. I also like the idea of voluntary human extinction, whereby people limit the number of children they have to two (one to replace each parent) or less. This wouldn't be possible without modern medical breakthroughs, unless you like the idea of exposure and coathangers. In fact, overpopulation is more of a problem in areas where modern medicine are less available.
As for our distance from death, I am quite aware of this. It was a common theme in a few of my classes. As for euthanasia, this is really not the right place for that discussion.

[Jimorian]

And about low infant mortality. Haven't you people's heard about overpopulation?

Counterintuitively, death has never been an effective method of population control for humans.

[UnChosenOne]

Personally, I think medicine should focus on improving quality of life, not its length. I also like the idea of voluntary human extinction, whereby people limit the number of children they have to two (one to replace each parent) or less. This wouldn't be possible without modern medical breakthroughs, unless you like the idea of exposure and coathangers....
As for our distance from death, I am quite aware of this. It was a common theme in a few of my classes. As for euthanasia, this is really not the right place for that discussion.

Ah. You seem's to actualy even try to understand. From me a best way to get overpopulation down is: A) Improve life quality (you don't need to make so many kid's to make sure that you have somebody to take care aboutyou when you are old). B) Lower the infant mortality (You see you can make smaller amout of kid's because you don't need to worry about to they survive). C) You can make one kid without permission if you want make more you must have it. D) Not try to longer our lifespan. Just continue by this way and we don't have overpopulation problem. And you see the lifequality start's to rise when there less people.

And about "saving" the people's life's by medication. We should use medication just to those who do have change to survive not to keep some +80 year old alive just for few year's.

[KnightDisciple]

I'd rather not live in a society that made that kind of thing mandatory. Especially the "ask for permission to have a kid" thing.
As for not putting effort into older people care...I'll hold my tongue here, buddy. But I've got older grandparents, and I'd like them to get good medical care if something happens.

[Zeful]

1. Do we have proper term to this techonecromancy?Life support.

2. Is the human who live's longer than a posible by normal way's still a human or is (s)he something else? Is genetic engineered human still human? Is a cyborg still a human.Human: Homo Sapien Sapien, origniated from Homo Sapien by the ability to create art 25,000+ years ago. So if a cybernetic homo sapien or genetically engineered homo sapien can create art, then it is human.

3. Overpopulation is already here and because mankind mostlikely won't colonize space we should do something about it (overpopulation).You would condem 3 billion people to death (the only viable solution to overpopulation as we are currently unable to live on any nearby planets/moons)? Write up a list.


So you seem's to think that the we should give longer life to 1st world's citizen's and forgot those who would actualy need medical treatment in 3rd world contries.This is a failure across humanity. The ancient instinct that allowed us to survive and make this society has damned those who are not part of the "pack", but there are only "packs" of one now a day.
Actualy all those money's that are spend to keep those who live in a 1st world healthy would be better used to get 3rd world to some shape not for longering our live's.True we could just execute the sick and elderly at home for the benefit of the sick and elderly in other countries, but that would be exchanging one set of sick for another.

[SDF]

Overpopulation is NOT a problem in first world countries. I would think that is pretty common knowledge by now, but I guess not. The US is keeping a healthy growth rate right now, true. Many parts of Europe are looking at shrinking populations in the future. Japan is currently in an enormous growth decline that will dramatically effect them in the next couple of decades. China, do to their birth laws, is SCREWED in a generation - they will not be able to maintain their current infrastructure. Developing countries always face population explosions, but that levels off. Earth is in no way close to facing K with current trends.


While it's always a good idea to be vigilant about all threats, don't you think it's a bit silly to get so worked up about a disease that can't even be transmitted between humans yet, and that won't necessarily ever be able to? I'm not quite that cynical, but Dr Mum reckons it's all a con by the drug companies: Anyone ever heard of those drugs before that big scare? The Spanish Flu's pretty damn scary, though

Naw, I don't think it's silly. It wouldn't be the first virus to jump species and it is incredibly aggressive. Even if we make a vaccine for it the drug companies can't profit on it unless it actually jumps species, or is government subsidized. The second being plausible, but most of the work being done on it is at government funded institutions. I mean drug companies are money grubbing and use copyright laws to discriminate against the poor, but they don't need conspiracies or cons to get rich. :P

[Eldritch_Ent]

Overpopulation is a myth. As education increases, birth rates decline. (And spelling/grammar improves.)

Furthermore, as a population increases, people can afford to be more specialized. And because they can, they do. People will improve things as needed. Bio engineered crops. Meat grown in vats. ( Tastes the same as regular meat, just without the pesky animal middleman. It's a *lot* cheaper and more sanitary, too!) Hydroponics.

Booms in population cause 3rd world countries to develop the raw manpower they need to turn into 2nd or 1st world countries. The Rennaisance. The Industrial Revolution. The Information Age. The march of progress has always been defined by one thing.

An increase in population, combined with increases in efficiency, means people have more spare time to work on things directly unrelated to survival. Which means art, music, literature, science, computers, medicine. I look forward to, nay, encourage our next boom in population!

[thubby]

And about "saving" the people's life's by medication. We should use medication just to those who do have change to survive not to keep some +80 year old alive just for few year's.

that +80 year old has as much value as the 25 year old, for whom we do everything medically possible. doing any less for the elderly is a violation of human rights.
in reality no one has any "chance to survive", we all die.

[Serpentine]

Naw, I don't think it's silly. It wouldn't be the first virus to jump species and it is incredibly aggressive. Even if we make a vaccine for it the drug companies can't profit on it unless it actually jumps species, or is government subsidized. The second being plausible, but most of the work being done on it is at government funded institutions. I mean drug companies are money grubbing and use copyright laws to discriminate against the poor, but they don't need conspiracies or cons to get rich. :PThe reaction was still pretty ridiculous, though, especially as I have no doubt that there's dozens, maybe hundreds, of other diseases with exactly the same potential to jump hosts. HIV didn't manage it until... well, there's one reasonably viable theory that it was a man doing something naughty with a chimpanzee. Thus, no matter the risk, while it's always good to be prepared the reaction to avian flu was ridiculous. Exhibit A: One of my mother's patients (admittedly, a known hypochondriac) came in absolutely positive that she had it. My mother's response: "Have you been making out with any chickens lately? No? Then you Don't Have It."

[Innis Cabal]

Ah. You seem's to actualy even try to understand. From me a best way to get overpopulation down is: A) Improve life quality (you don't need to make so many kid's to make sure that you have somebody to take care aboutyou when you are old). B) Lower the infant mortality (You see you can make smaller amout of kid's because you don't need to worry about to they survive). C) You can make one kid without permission if you want make more you must have it. D) Not try to longer our lifespan. Just continue by this way and we don't have overpopulation problem. And you see the lifequality start's to rise when there less people.

And about "saving" the people's life's by medication. We should use medication just to those who do have change to survive not to keep some +80 year old alive just for few year's.


:smallconfused:

I'm going to try to puzzle through this.

You want to make sure everyone only has one child unless they have some premission (I am going to assume that it would come from the government) otherwise. So that would mean that they would have to buy a license which would cost money. So what your really saying is to avoid over population instead of using medicine and other methods, you want only the rich to breed more then one child. Thats how its comming across.

You then say you want to increase the quality of life. How? Without science, medical and other wise, its not going to happen. Your quality of life is only as good as how healthy you are, you can own the greatest palace ever and have all the money in the world, but if you have 10 days to use it...well you see where thats going.

So your argument....is well....your arguing against yourself here bud.

As to "Saving the developed world first" sorry....but we have to save our own before we go saving the world. Its not nice but if we arn't able to help ourselves then how are we going to save people worse off then we are?

Also, just a suggestion, spell check and grammer check, there is a feature on these very boards to do it in the upper right corner of the box. It will make your points easier to understand.

[Eldritch_Ent]

In today's uplifting news, Te-Cel-Di-Ar (Terapia Cellular Diabetes Argentina), in a study involving 16 type 2 diabetics, has apparently cures 80% of them using autologous bone marrow cells. Further studies are currently being arranged. Hooray science!

[Innis Cabal]

Thats awsome to here honestly.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Today's uplifting science news, Scientists have succesfully performed an organ transplant using an organ made from stem cells. In a 30 year old woman, they made and gave her an entirely new Verterbrate Trachea.

[Eldan]

Woah. Got any links to articles on that?

[Eldritch_Ent]

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Stem-Cells-Used-To-Create-a-Functional-Windpipe-98163.shtml

[Eldan]

Really interesting technique there. I can't decide if that's more or less awesome than the usually assumed "We grow it in a tank from scratch!"

[paddyfool]

Some more exciting recent or upcoming medical advances:

Malaria vaccine. We've already got one that's about 50% effective; a little more and we're laughing.

Better diagnostics for TB. For a long time, the only decent way to test for TB was a culture that took a month to return results. Now it's down to a week or so.

Antiretroviral therapy for HIV. Not that new - we've had at least half-decent ART since 1996. But these days we have about 25 different drugs to mix-and-match between to get around patients' individual drug reactions or viral drug resistance, we've worked out some good protocols for post exposure prophylaxis and for prevention of mother to child transmission that can pretty much cut-out infections through needle-stick injuries and from mother to child, and we've got plenty of peope rescued from the brink of death.

And finally - Statins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statins). These things have seriously changed the face of heart disease in the past 20 years or so.

Also, on the disease eradication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_disease_eradication) front:

We've eradicated smallpox, way back in the 70s, requiring just one tool to do so (a vaccine). We've eliminated polio transmission in much of the world, but have hit a few stumbling blocks in the final stages of the global eradication program, particularly in India and Nigeria, and it may be quite some time before we achieve eradication. We've also almost eradicated guinea worm globally - this one may only take a couple more years, if Sudan and Mali stay peaceful - and there are people looking quite seriously at lymphatic filariasis, measles, rubella and even malaria for future targetting. Exciting, no?

[Eldan]

The problem with Malaria is not the vaccine itself:
Even with one that is 100% effective, in order to even slow down the growth of Malaria, 99.9% of the population of the tropics would have to be vaccinated. We calculated that one as an example in population biology. Sad but true: the growth rates and everything of Malaria are just too high. THe only thing that ever was effective was soaking half of Africa in DDT to kill all the mosquitos.

[Serpentine]

Sickle cell anaemia helps, too.

[SDF]

Sicle (sp?) cell anaemia helps, too.

Well it's nice if you are heterozygous for the trait. I've written a few epidemiology reports on Sierra Leone, and unfortunately mosquito nets are still the best defense available defense against malaria in most third world areas right now. I will say that the material they use for it is a great scientific invention though.