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View Full Version : [4e] Houserule about pushing monsters into pits: checking for balance



Izmir Stinger
2009-01-13, 10:44 PM
My roommate is starting up a 4E campaign and we played through a couple of encounters to get a feel for the rules. The inspiration for this houserule comes from this encounter, in the hide tags:

The party I was solo playing (which is harder than I thought it would be) had to jump across a chasm to get to some artillery and a leader on the other side. I decided this was a good time to use my fighter's "Tide of Iron" at will to knock these bastards into the chasm. I maneuver around to get one between me and the pit and whack him good with my shield. He makes his saving throw and is prone. He gets up and I miss with the AoO. Next turn, I whack him again and he makes his saving throw. I get him with the AoO for standing up this time and he is bloodied. Then I whack him with the shield again, and the little $#@% makes his $%^& saving throw again! He gets up again, probably looking a bit woozy, and my AoO cracks his skull. So there he is, laying on the ground dead, next to the pit that he very successful avoided falling in. I asked if I could nudge his corpse over the edge as a minor action.

Now, I know that guy beat the odds on his saving throws to avoid going in the pit, but that's gonna happen sometimes, and we agreed that this was pretty lame...

... so we housruled it. This is what we came up with:

If forced movement would cause a creature to wind up falling over a precipice, they may make a saving throw to avoid going over the edge as normal, unless the forced movement could carry them further than the edge of the precipice (i.e. the monster is standing next the the edge, and he is forced to move two squares). Also, creatures who are Dazed, Immobilized, or Stunned when they are forced over the edge cannot make such a saving throw.

A creature that makes the saving throw falls prone at the edge of the precipice. This creature is under an effect called "dangling." A dangling creature is prone and cannot shift. If a dangling creature is hit by an attack that requires an attack roll, he is knocked over the precipice. The dangling effect can be removed by spending a move action to stand up or crawl out of the square (Note: the dangling effect is not removed until the movement action is resolved, so if it triggers an AoO, the creature can be sent into the pit).

Is this appropriate? Would it make encounters with pits in them too dangerous for the players, or too easy? Is there any possible exploit I am overlooking?

Burley
2009-01-14, 10:51 AM
Okay, two comments, and they are opinions only. Nothing in your post will break the game, so, it's all about your table and the rules that apply to it.

First: I wish the rules did state that you could push over a gap. This'd make a wizard's Thunderwave even more awesome. Same applies for Swordmage's Lightning Lure. I'd trade a d6 damage to not have to fumble an Athletics check ANYDAY!

Second: I think that the "Dangling" concept just muddies the water. The rules for falling prone at cliff edges are already basically accounted for. The fact that the opponent is now prone makes it easy enough to kill. Knocking them off is nice, but the ability to knock them prone at (potentially) low levels would add a level of strategy that the PCs may abuse or not even realize. Dangling could cause instant death to PCs. 4e hates that, as shown in Second Winds and Healing Surges.

Yakk
2009-01-14, 11:03 AM
He gets up and I miss with the AoO.
Standing up doesn't provoke OAs in 4e. By knocking someone prone, you get CA until they get up, and you eat their move action.

Second, "easy knocking off cliffs" isn't a good thing, as it shortens combat more than a bit -- and works on players(!)

Cliffs of Certain Doom: if you are pushed, pulled or slid off a cliff, make an immediate saving throw. On success, you are prone adjacent to the cliff. On failure, lose a healing surge or an action point, and make another saving throw. If you run out of healing surges and action points, you fall to your doom.

Alternative Rule: Lose 1/4 of your max HP (rounded up!), and make another saving throw.

The idea is that pushing someone over a cliff is a good idea -- but it isn't an instant-kill move on either players or bad guys.

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-14, 01:21 PM
Standing up doesn't provoke OAs in 4e. By knocking someone prone, you get CA until they get up, and you eat their move action.

Hmmm. Your right, but during that walkthrough encounter we were both under the impression that it did. We must have been remembering 3rd edition rules. I had to remind him twice that you no longer roll to confirm criticals.


Second, "easy knocking off cliffs" isn't a good thing, as it shortens combat more than a bit -- and works on players(!)

Well the fact that standing up doesn't provoke AoO makes it a bit harder. Now you have to either spend an action point or have an ally nearby that is higher than the monster in the initiative order to knock a guy who made his saving throw off a cliff.


The idea is that pushing someone over a cliff is a good idea -- but it isn't an instant-kill move on either players or bad guys.

Well an easy fix for that is making actual cliffs of certain doom rare. Most precipices would just be pits, maybe with spikes at the bottom, taken from the obstacles section. Monsters with no athletics ability are going to stuck at the bottom, but PC's can get out, even if they have to wait for the encounter to be over and have someone throw a rope. It'd just be better to not fall in the first place.

Ninetail
2009-01-14, 06:29 PM
If forced movement would cause a creature to wind up falling over a precipice, they may make a saving throw to avoid going over the edge as normal, unless the forced movement could carry them further than the edge of the precipice (i.e. the monster is standing next the the edge, and he is forced to move two squares). Also, creatures who are Dazed, Immobilized, or Stunned when they are forced over the edge cannot make such a saving throw.


This change makes pits, cliffs, and the like FAR more dangerous. It's not hard to be pushed or slid further than one square past the edge, and it's not hard for a character to be dazed, immobilized, or stunned. In fact, there are abilities which will both daze and push, or immobilize and push, which becomes a far more potent combination with this rule in place.

This might seem like a good thing when you're the one doing the pushing, but you're not likely to feel the same when a monster shoves you off a thousand-foot cliff and you don't get a saving throw. And it will happen eventually. There are always more monsters, but there's only one of your character.

(Even with the saving throw, there's still a 45% chance (barring bonuses or penalties) that the target gets thrown over. That's not at all insignificant. Improving that makes this even more the tactic of choice when it's available.)

Incidentally, though, standing up doesn't provoke an OA in 4e, so your combat shouldn't have played out that way to begin with.



A creature that makes the saving throw falls prone at the edge of the precipice. This creature is under an effect called "dangling." A dangling creature is prone and cannot shift.


Hm... I would probably rule that a prone creature already can't shift as a move action without a power or ability that allows it to do so. It can only crawl or stand up. (Standing up does allow a 1-square shift if the square is occupied, which is fine.) That's a simpler house rule than the one you're proposing, and applicable to more situations.



If a dangling creature is hit by an attack that requires an attack roll, he is knocked over the precipice. The dangling effect can be removed by spending a move action to stand up or crawl out of the square (Note: the dangling effect is not removed until the movement action is resolved, so if it triggers an AoO, the creature can be sent into the pit).


This again makes pits and ledges more dangerous. And they're already pretty dangerous to begin with. A prone creature is pretty easy to hit; this all but guarantees a drop, if there are a couple attacks against it before it acts again.

Which, again, is fun for your party, but not so much fun when the horde of kobold minions is plinking away at your dangling cleric.



Is this appropriate? Would it make encounters with pits in them too dangerous for the players, or too easy? Is there any possible exploit I am overlooking?

If you implement this, be ready for your party to ready attack actions to execute when a creature is dangling. That way, they can more or less ensure that a successful save will be irrelevant. Also be ready for the GM's creatures to do the same to you.

Death by falling will become much more common in the campaign, or else battles near cliffs, pits, etc. will be avoided wherever possible.

In short, no, I don't think it's a good idea.