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View Full Version : Belkar's Prophecy Theory (spoilers?)



Magothys
2009-01-13, 11:07 PM
I see a lot of people discussing Belkar's prophecy with "He'll be undead." or "He'll become a sexy shoeless god of war!". While I can't say either of these will or won't happen, here's a different debate: what if the prophecy itself has been foiled?

My reasoning: The Oracle has seen his own future deaths and has taken measures to render them harmless. If fate was unchangable, he would have probably remained dead the first time, as there was nothing he could do to arrange a resurrection. This means that his predictions of the future can be countered. Now, since Shojo has died, it's possible that he's been scrying on the OotS like Roy and Eugene (the gates are an issue whether he's dead or not, and he'd probably want to check on Mr. Scruffy or his owner Belkar). So he might have seen the Oracle's prediction regarding Belkar's death. The Thieve's Guild breaking into Pete's basement could have easily been Belkar's final death, as no one would know where the body was that would care about raising him. So it's possible that Shojo, through Mr. Scruffy's licking Belkar, had a medium (like Roy's sword) to contact him at the last minute, to try to change his fate for the overall good of the OotS. We just wouldn't know it from the reader's perspective (yet).

Therefore, it's "possible" that Belkar won't die at all (at least within the end of the OotS year). I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I thought I'd throw it out for discussion. After a whole dream sequence about changing his life to avoid getting killed, Belkar dying seems anticlimatic.

Trazoi
2009-01-13, 11:23 PM
The flaw in your reasoning is that the Oracle just foresaw that Belkar would kill him. Which he did. However in the OotS world, death is a curable ailment. Belkar didn't ask the Oracle whether he would permanently dispatch his laundry list of people he had a grudges against, never to take a breath again.

Unless there's evidence that the Oracle is fallible - say if Xykon turns up to Kraagor's Gate before Girard's - then I take the Belkar prophecy to be still in effect. Like it or not, Belkar's going to be taking his last breath ever sometime before the end of the in comic year.

Can't dodge fate. :smallwink:

Rutskarn
2009-01-14, 12:02 AM
My personal take is that Belkar is going to die. Die forever. His corpse will rot, be digested, burn, be cast into some strange timeless plane or just plain disintegrated.

And that will be the end of him.

Forever.

In fact, Rich will go back and erase Belkar from the archives. He'll go door-to-door to all his customer's houses with a virus chip for digital archives and a wite-out pen for the trade paperbacks.

Then he'll beat you upside the head until you forget Belkar ever existed.

Because he's Richard Burlew. And that is how he rolls.

whitelaughter
2009-01-14, 01:01 AM
This morning, I was a stiff breeze away from the end of the line, and now, we're living high

Okay, it's not "what could possibly go wrong" or "would you like to see pictures of my family" but Belkar's just asking to be pushing up brambles next comic.

He should have got Elan to teach him about genre rules.


Although it'd be funny if Jenny kills him....

Mariel Dragon
2009-01-14, 01:04 AM
My personal take is that Belkar is going to die. Die forever. His corpse will rot, be digested, burn, be cast into some strange timeless plane or just plain disintegrated.

And that will be the end of him.

Forever.

In fact, Rich will go back and erase Belkar from the archives. He'll go door-to-door to all his customer's houses with a virus chip for digital archives and a wite-out pen for the trade paperbacks.

Then he'll beat you upside the head until you forget Belkar ever existed.

Because he's Richard Burlew. And that is how he rolls.

Best. Theory. Ever.

Zevox
2009-01-14, 01:08 AM
The flaw in your reasoning is that the Oracle just foresaw that Belkar would kill him. Which he did. However in the OotS world, death is a curable ailment. Belkar didn't ask the Oracle whether he would permanently dispatch his laundry list of people he had a grudges against, never to take a breath again.

Unless there's evidence that the Oracle is fallible - say if Xykon turns up to Kraagor's Gate before Girard's - then I take the Belkar prophecy to be still in effect. Like it or not, Belkar's going to be taking his last breath ever sometime before the end of the in comic year.
I agree with Trazoi. The whole argument about the Oracle forseeing his own deaths is also flawed in that it doesn't take into account the possibility that his resurrections were also forseen and fated, not an alteration of the future.

Zevox

factotum
2009-01-14, 03:04 AM
I agree with Trazoi. The whole argument about the Oracle forseeing his own deaths is also flawed in that it doesn't take into account the possibility that his resurrections were also forseen and fated, not an alteration of the future.


Possibility? It's a racing certainty! After he gets resurrected this time, note that he tells the Lizard Twins the exact time and method of his next death (torn to pieces by an enraged Druid who didn't like the prophecy he'd been given)...

David Argall
2009-01-14, 03:22 AM
A chief purpose of the Oracle is to foreshadow things for us, which means the Oracle is always right, or the foreshadowing is undermined. For the same reason, the predictions are direct, not tricky or devious. They are often worthless, but they are direct and right.

Zeful
2009-01-14, 03:48 AM
My reasoning: The Oracle has seen his own future deaths and has taken measures to render them harmless. If fate was unchangable, he would have probably remained dead the first time,False assumption, if fate were unchangeable then it's easier to assume that the Oracle (as previously stated) saw his own resurrection.
This means that his predictions of the future can be countered.All predictions fulfilled thus far have been 100% accurate, as have some of his side comments "You two [Elan and Roy] will be late for a pair of family reunions" immediately precedes the cliffport tangent, for example. No evidence in the comic even hints at the possibility of being wrong.
Now, since Shojo has died, it's possible that he's been scrying on the OotS like Roy and Eugene (the gates are an issue whether he's dead or not, and he'd probably want to check on Mr. Scruffy or his owner Belkar). So he might have seen the Oracle's prediction regarding Belkar's death. The Thieve's Guild breaking into Pete's basement could have easily been Belkar's final death, as no one would know where the body was that would care about raising him. So it's possible that Shojo, through Mr. Scruffy's licking Belkar, had a medium (like Roy's sword) to contact him at the last minute, to try to change his fate for the overall good of the OotS. We just wouldn't know it from the reader's perspective (yet).By far the best argument for Shojo's spiritual journey actually including Shojo.
Except for the existance of both Resurrection and True Resurrection being possible to cast. This would unlikely have be Belkar's "final death".


Therefore, it's "possible" that Belkar won't die at all (at least within the end of the OotS year). I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I thought I'd throw it out for discussion. After a whole dream sequence about changing his life to avoid getting killed, Belkar dying seems anticlimatic.Of course we don't know when the end of the year is. Time has passed between the prophecy and Now, but without any real dates we can do nothing but speculate at when this will occur. It could be the next morning after Belkar's latest... quest, that rings in the new year. Or it could be the sun rising after an Epic All-night battle with Team Evil at Kragoor's Gate that has Belkar breathing his last breath, sucuuming to his wounds after falling out of his last Rage.

I certainly know which ending I'm rooting for.

Magothys
2009-01-14, 09:58 AM
"Can't dodge fate."

If the Oracle said I was going to put on a blue shirt tomorrow morning, and I put on a red shirt just to spite him, then I've changed the normal course of events. I can choose to do something different (kind of like the movie Minority Report). I'm not saying the Oracle is fallible at all, just that the future could change because of the prediction, from what we know.

"All predictions thus far have been 100% accurate..."

True. But we haven't seen too many predictions, and no one was trying to do anything about it (Belkar was even looking forward to one of them).

Except for the existance of both Resurrection and True Resurrection being possible to cast. This would unlikely have be Belkar's "final death".

I recall the OotS pondering at some point whether there was anyone even alive in the world that was able to cast the spell. I'm assuming it isn't available. Also, you'd wonder whether the OotS wants to pay to have him back.

"The whole argument about the Oracle forseeing his own deaths is also flawed in that it doesn't take into account the possibility that his resurrections were also forseen and fated, not an alteration of the future."

It's plausible, although it might raise circular logic issues (i.e. Is the Oracle that good when he looks into the future that he sees every event that stems from predictions he hasn't made yet?). I do think Belkar is a goner, sooner or later. But it's also plausible that Shojo is trying to spite the Oracle.

Avilan the Grey
2009-01-14, 11:01 AM
The problem for me, of course is that to me Belkar is one of two or maybe three characters that makes reading the comic worthwhile.

The other is Vaarsuvius, and maybe Elan.

In short, a OOTs comic with a truly dead Belkar is a no-read comic for me.
(Besides, speaking of the dead, Rich is great, but the Roy subplot is so much overdue to end that I no longer pay attention to it; I just skim past any panel where they talk about Roy or his "predicament").

I truly hope someone of the many who tries to solve how Belkar would survive the adventure to the end is right.

Zeful
2009-01-14, 01:35 PM
If the Oracle said I was going to put on a blue shirt tomorrow morning, and I put on a red shirt just to spite him, then I've changed the normal course of events. I can choose to do something different (kind of like the movie Minority Report). I'm not saying the Oracle is fallible at all, just that the future could change because of the prediction, from what we know.For all we know the Oracle could be choosing the future he wants and uses his foresight to choose his words carefully to ensure that future. A fluid timeline is more dangerous in the hands of a seer than an immutable timeline.


True. But we haven't seen too many predictions, and no one was trying to do anything about it (Belkar was even looking forward to one of them).Point. But the only one who knows about Belkar's prophesied death can't do anything about it. And later may not want to.


I recall the OotS pondering at some point whether there was anyone even alive in the world that was able to cast the spell. I'm assuming it isn't available. Also, you'd wonder whether the OotS wants to pay to have him back.An effective mid level evil killer? I could see a future Evil wanting some kind of fall guy/evil general/distraction. Belkar could be ressed for that purpose.


It's plausible, although it might raise circular logic issues (i.e. Is the Oracle that good when he looks into the future that he sees every event that stems from predictions he hasn't made yet?). I do think Belkar is a goner, sooner or later. But it's also plausible that Shojo is trying to spite the Oracle.It's implied that the Oracle is constantly, or semi-constantly looking into the future due to the placement of some of his remarks. His future sight in no way seems to impair his ability to interact with the present as this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) suggests, so it's possible that yes the Oracle sees every possible event that can occur from his predictions (or anything) and chooses the future that best suits him/his well paying clientele. Since Roy didn't pay the Oracle to tell him when Belkar dies, the Oracle chose the future (and relevant phrase to ensure it) to amuse him the most. This would include Ghost-Shojo's actions. So Shojo trying to spite the Oracle is actually playing into his hands.

factotum
2009-01-14, 04:32 PM
If the Oracle said I was going to put on a blue shirt tomorrow morning, and I put on a red shirt just to spite him, then I've changed the normal course of events. I can choose to do something different (kind of like the movie Minority Report). I'm not saying the Oracle is fallible at all, just that the future could change because of the prediction, from what we know.


Which is exactly why the Oracle would never give such a precise prediction--too easily circumvented. However, the Oracle has so far proven to be extremely reliable; the problem, as with all predictions, is that it's almost impossible to figure out what the prediction MEANS until after the event it's predicting, which makes the prediction itself pretty useless on the whole.

hamishspence
2009-01-14, 04:36 PM
The Oracle has done Statements as well as predictions. SOD: Who is the Sorcerer that killed my master? He is Called Xykon.
War and XPs flashback: Where is Xykon? In His Throne Room- true, if obvious. And if Xykon hadn't had a throne room, it would have been wrong.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-14, 05:01 PM
Actually it just occurred to me that the theory that Belkar will be made incapable of eating or breathing holds more merit when you think about what he said regarding Belkar's birthday cake. Mainly that he should savor it.

Besides since we haven't seen said cake yet Belkar can't be about to die.

Carnivorous_Bea
2009-01-14, 05:09 PM
I agree with the poster above that Elan, V, and Belkar are pretty much the three characters who give the comic its zest. Nevertheless, if the murder-midget's going to pitch over, I hope he does it soon, so that we can stop speculating about it. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe that sandwich is poisoned ....

High King Iggy
2009-01-14, 05:22 PM
You can't change fate. Actually that's the definition of the word ....

If fate could be changed, the oracle would have; because after all, death hurts. Belkar isn't going to be able to dodge this anymore than the oracle could ...

Our SSGoW is: "not long for this world", "about to draw his last breath ever", and hopefully, enjoyed "his last birthday cake". Not to mention the foreshadowing...


"We're in this together, to the top of the heap or bust, until the very very end."

If that's not wet mackeral smack to the face foreshadowing I don't know what is... Buy your black armband Belkar fans - here it comes. I've got mine already. (Belkar haterz, get a party favor and champagne :smalleek: )

High King Iggy
2009-01-14, 05:24 PM
poisoned sandwich .. ha ha!

.. just make sure Belkie, not to eat any birthday cake Crystal makes for you, y'know, to smooth things over ...!

Magothys
2009-01-14, 07:19 PM
Besides since we haven't seen said cake yet Belkar can't be about to die.

Good point, I missed that. Must not be anytime soon then.

Lowkey Lyesmith
2009-01-14, 07:36 PM
Has anyone ever wondered if this world might just not be fatalistic and that since Roy now knows that Belkar will die he can stop it?

If there exist free will and we are able to make our own choices then all predictions of the future are based upon plausibility not facts.

So Belkar might die, but remember. Predictions are like weather reports, often wrong :smallwink:

Edit: Even if The Oracle has never been wrong before. The argument still holds.

I posted this on another thread. But it seems to fit. I don't like fatalism since it's rather boring in storys.

JonahFalcon
2009-01-14, 09:56 PM
You don't breathe when you're undead.

Grail
2009-01-14, 10:00 PM
Belkar will not become an undead.
I posted this in another thread, it is so obvious.

Belkar will ascend to the realm of Godhood. As a deity, he then meets all requisites of the prophecy.

The end.
:smallcool:

David Argall
2009-01-14, 11:24 PM
since we haven't seen said cake yet Belkar can't be about to die.

We haven't see anybody's birthday cake and the strip has been going for about two years, comic time. Quite simply there has been a lot of birthday cake off camera.

derfenrirwolv
2009-01-14, 11:48 PM
If the Oracle said I was going to put on a blue shirt tomorrow morning, and I put on a red shirt just to spite him, then I've changed the normal course of events. I can choose to do something different (kind of like the movie Minority Report). I'm not saying the Oracle is fallible at all, just that the future could change because of the prediction, from what we know.

Which is one of the reasons that the prophesies are vauge, so you CAN"T be forewarned to something that specific. Also, in this case, on your way to school a bucket of blue paint would fall on you.

Zeful
2009-01-14, 11:57 PM
You don't breathe when you're undead.

You don't breathe after being unmade by the Snarl either.

docstrange
2009-01-15, 08:14 AM
I'd like to see him die by heroic accident: that is, he saves everyone (but doesn't mean to) and dies (but doesn't mean to) and all the other PCs are left standing around talking about how he redeemed himself with his final act.

SSGW Priest
2009-01-15, 08:28 AM
My personal take is that Belkar is going to die. Die forever. His corpse will rot, be digested, burn, be cast into some strange timeless plane or just plain disintegrated.

And that will be the end of him.

Forever.

In fact, Rich will go back and erase Belkar from the archives. He'll go door-to-door to all his customer's houses with a virus chip for digital archives and a wite-out pen for the trade paperbacks.

Then he'll beat you upside the head until you forget Belkar ever existed.

Because he's Richard Burlew. And that is how he rolls.

Very 1984/Stalin. I think it is time to research a new spell, Retcon.

bluedolphin359
2009-01-15, 09:44 PM
I hate to think about this. I have tried to think around the problem, and there's not many probable ways. Of course, OOTS is anything but probable…

Personally, I hope Belkar dies (if he does) at the same time Roy destroys Xykon. I think that he will be killed by Xykon, and that this will provide the distraction Roy needs to destroy Xykon. He won't be unmade by the Snarl, because in the comic after this, the rest of the Order will be thinking about Belkar, and then it will cut to a scene in the Chaotic Evil afterlife where Belkar is enjoying some of the attractions. (The Dungeon of Monsters That Are Just Strong Enough to Really Challenge You comes to mind).

As for the arguments that he could be resurrected, maybe Xykon or Redcloak does something to make it impossible to bring him back. I think something like this was discussed during the Cliffport sub-plot.

Basically, I hope he lives for a while. OOTS without Belkar is not something I want to see.