Haley should simply TELL Celia...

[Ancalagon]

... why she needs the money. I guess that would give Celias annoying selfrighteousness a severe (and nice-to-see) blow. She should also add she left the guild in the first place because she saw no way to make the money needed when she had to give a large part of her earnings to the guild...

"Oh my good, Haley is NOT that self-centered and greedy!"

Instead she's having the same argument for the... fifth or so time...

[Tempest Fennac]

Haley is like me in the sense that I'd sooner keep this sort of thing to myself due to not trusting other people that much. In this case, just telling Celia would probably be the best option, though.

[Kish]

... why she needs the money.
[...]
Instead she's having the same argument for the... fifth or so time...
Yes.

She also should have told Roy and the rest of the Order that a long time ago. But she won't, because she's pathologically secretive (it cost her her ability to speak right). When Durkon thought she just wanted to count her money (in the strip where we discovered Lord Tyrinar's letter), she evidently felt bad that one of her companions thought she was so greedy, but she still didn't tell Durkon why she needed the money. And this is compounded, in my eyes, by the fact that thinking Lord Tyrinar would actually release her father if she did come up with the money is weirdly foolish in a way Haley...usually seems to be about money, actually, considering how long she worked for the Guild and gave them nearly all her take.

This is why I don't identify with Haley the way the people who are getting so upset with Celia apparently do.

[Optimystik]

Haley doesn't owe Celia an explanation. Celia's the outsider here, both literally and figuratively; she shouldn't be the one assuming that she understands the nuances of what's going on, especially since she's always complaining that she doesn't.

I agree with the OP, a great deal of grief could have been avoided if Haley had come clean with her party members, but why should she be required to pour her heart out to acquaintances to protect her belongings? Even if Celia has an issue with how she acquired them (i.e. theft) she should at least have kept in mind the source of Haley's income (i.e. Grubwiggler). It's not as though Haley was stealing from orphans and little old ladies in the time they were traveling together - every theft Celia has witnessed has been from a deserving target.

[Kaytara]

Haley doesn't owe Celia an explanation. Celia's the outsider here, both literally and figuratively; she shouldn't be the one assuming that she understands the nuances of what's going on, especially since she's always complaining that she doesn't.


Quoted for truth. In fact, since Celia hasn't actually seen Haley act in a greedy, treasure-hoarding way. The only time Celia saw Haley really steal anything was from Grubwiggler and they needed that money badly for Roy's resurrection.

As for Haley's pathological secretiveness, am I the only one who thinks there's a really good chance Haley has told Vaarsuvius? During her dinner with Elan, she tries to spill the beans to him about every secret she has, including her father. Then, she tries telling him her BIG secret and says to herself "Even V doesn't know that one." This strongly implies that V knows everything else, or close to it.

[hamishspence]

when it comes to thefts from deserving targets- how deserving does a target have to be to justify theft? Remember Haley was stealing from Grubwiggler before she knew he had Celia prisoner- she comes in with a sack of his money on her back.

[Kish]

when it comes to thefts from deserving targets- how deserving does a target have to be to justify theft?
To Haley, the other members of the Order are sufficiently deserving, as she's demonstrated time and again.

[Berserk Monk]

Haley doesn't owe Celia an explanation. Celia's the outsider here, both literally and figuratively; she shouldn't be the one assuming that she understands the nuances of what's going on, especially since she's always complaining that she doesn't.

Agreed for several reasons:

-This is Haley's family, a private matter she may not feel comfortable talking about. She hasn't told anyone else, and she only tried to tell Elan because she thought she would get her voice back.
-I doubt this would change Celia's mind. The lifes of dozens probably mean more to her than the freedom of one.
-I doubt Celia would think Lord Tyrinar is evil considering she doesn't think anyone is evil and that everyone can be reasoned with. She'd probably suggest negotiating her father's freedom.
-Also, Celia may even think Haley's father deserves to be punished. Being a lawyer, she may think, "Your father should be imprisoned: taking things other people earned honestly."

[The Tygre]

Haley doesn't owe Celia an explanation. Celia's the outsider here, both literally and figuratively; she shouldn't be the one assuming that she understands the nuances of what's going on, especially since she's always complaining that she doesn't.

I agree with the OP, a great deal of grief could have been avoided if Haley had come clean with her party members, but why should she be required to pour her heart out to acquaintances to protect her belongings? Even if Celia has an issue with how she acquired them (i.e. theft) she should at least have kept in mind the source of Haley's income (i.e. Grubwiggler). It's not as though Haley was stealing from orphans and little old ladies in the time they were traveling together - every theft Celia has witnessed has been from a deserving target.

Here here!

[Optimystik]

when it comes to thefts from deserving targets- how deserving does a target have to be to justify theft? Remember Haley was stealing from Grubwiggler before she knew he had Celia prisoner- she comes in with a sack of his money on her back.

She's been stealing from him since before she joined the Order. She knows full well what sick experiments he's up to in that lab of his.


To Haley, the other members of the Order are sufficiently deserving, as she's demonstrated time and again.

Aren't they? They're hardly innocents, and every item she takes from them is still benefiting the group (e.g. stealing Belkar's healing potion and giving it to Elan).

[hamishspence]

there is a difference between "can be reasoned with" and "is not evil"

Celia's not completely blind- her views on Nale and Thog as jerks to bring before justice (admittedly after being petrified on their orders) and Belkar (has no intention of defending him in court) suggest she knows evil when she sees it. She just isn't one for killing it on sight.

as for imprisonment- when cops and thieves are forced to work together in a buddy-buddy movie, the outcome is often the cop persuading the thief to Turn Himself In and serve his time.

So far Celia hasn't suggested that (but then, she's a lawyer, not a cop-equivalent)

[David Argall]

... why she needs the money. I guess that would give Celias annoying selfrighteousness a severe (and nice-to-see) blow. She should also add she left the guild in the first place because she saw no way to make the money needed when she had to give a large part of her earnings to the guild...

Haley's motive for wanting the money is largely irrelevant. And if we assume it was rescuing her dad, saving 30 lives would seem to rank morally higher in most eyes.
And Haley is genuinely greedy. It's not a trait adopted because of outside needs. So her ultimate motive won't past muster at all.

[Optimystik]

Haley's motive for wanting the money is largely irrelevant. And if we assume it was rescuing her dad, saving 30 lives would seem to rank morally higher in most eyes.

No, but who she took it from is. And loosing 30 murderers back on the city isn't the most moral act I've ever heard of.

[Brauley]

I don't get why people hate Celia so much. Sure she lost some epicness when she stopped being a lawyer, but she isn't that bad

[Kaytara]

I don't get why people hate Celia so much. Sure she lost some epicness when she stopped being a lawyer, but she isn't that bad

I think it's due to her unwillingness to listen. Mistakes, people can forgive. Unsympathetic but understandable (and, from her point of view, somewhat justified?) decisions as well. But she keeps considering her own judgement to be superior to Haley's in things she has admitted she's out of her depth in.

[Brauley]

I guess. But she's lawful good and it's her job to be like that. Lawful good (From what I know of it) always think their word to be superior even if both plans(or whatever) will come to the same conclusions. People think she does it because she's a ***** but it's not.

Sure she was that little bit more epic as a lawyer, but she's still pretty cool now.

[Raging Gene Ray]

-Also, Celia may even think Haley's father deserves to be punished. Being a lawyer, she may think, "Your father should be imprisoned: taking things other people earned honestly."

Well, being a lawyer, she probably believed that even though the thieves were guilty of attempted murder, they didn't deserve the death penalty.

Likewise, if she finds out about Haley's father, she might try to negotiate a reduced sentence for him or secure his release by legal means. she might even use Tyrinar's own letter as evidence against him, since it seems to be soliciting a bribe instead of listing the amount of money required by law to bail Ian out.

[Underground]

This is a general problem of people in reality and stories: failing to tell the other some crucial stuff.

In this special case, though, I doubt it would do much good. Celia is just a hopeless case outside the courtroom.

[Avilan the Grey]

Yes.

She also should have told Roy and the rest of the Order that a long time ago. But she won't, because she's pathologically secretive (it cost her her ability to speak right).

Of course one could also suspect it is a matter of Plot-induced Stupidity, although it seems a little too repeated for that. She seems to be utterly unable to share personal stuff.

(I am jaded enough to always suspect it (Plot-induced Stupidity, or even -Idiocracy) since most media have them. Most common in TV soaps, obviously, but all too common in both books, dramas and comics with characters that should have Common Sense (tm)).

[Lissibith]

I think it's due to her unwillingness to listen. Mistakes, people can forgive. Unsympathetic but understandable (and, from her point of view, somewhat justified?) decisions as well. But she keeps considering her own judgement to be superior to Haley's in things she has admitted she's out of her depth in.

Listen to WHAT? Haley's treating her like a child or a lesser being instead of anything approaching an equal. There's not sharing your life story and then there's not even telling the basic facts to give your companions a faint grasp of the situation.

And especially considering she's far closer to resurrecting Roy than she was before Celia came along... I personally think she's acting selfish and ungrateful. Which is a perfectly reasonable way to act considering her personality and the circumstances. But it doesn't make Haley right in my eyes, however overbearing Celia's being.

[Kaytara]

Listen to WHAT? Haley's treating her like a child or a lesser being instead of anything approaching an equal. There's not sharing your life story and then there's not even telling the basic facts to give your companions a faint grasp of the situation.

And especially considering she's far closer to resurrecting Roy than she was before Celia came along... ...

Why should Haley treat Celia as an equal?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that outsiders are lesser beings than humans or anything. But in adventuring, Celia simply isn't Haley's equal. So why should Haley consider her judgement to be equal to hers, especially when Celia has confessed that she has no idea what's going on?
Also, Celia has made some very poor decisions.
She decided to go into Greysky City alone to try and get Roy raised. Despite Haley cautioning her a dozen times. Now one might argue that Haley should've just told her about the situation with the Thieves Guild, but the arguments she DID bring up, that it's a bad place where they likely won't find any clerics and probably just get killed for the gold in their pockets, should be convincing enough for someone with zero experience in that kind of thing. Besides, the reason Celia mentioned for doing this was "He's my boyfriend, not yours." It's completely moronic, as it implies that having dated Roy for a day and slept with him for a night makes Celia closer to him and more eager to get him resurrected than Haley, who's his close personal friend and has adventured with him for months.

Of course, now it does seem like Celia had made the right decision, because Roy is closer to being rezzed than he's been in months. That still doesn't make it right. Celia's initial decision was to sneak off with Roy's body alone, get Roy rezzed and then get back to Haley. But if she'd been alone, she wouldn't have left Grubwiggler's lair alive. So her initial plan not only failed catastrophically, but planted them in a further difficulties.

[Dacia Brabant]

I guess. But she's lawful good and it's her job to be like that. Lawful good (From what I know of it) always think their word to be superior even if both plans(or whatever) will come to the same conclusions.

People may play it as Lawful Stupid a lot, but that doesn't mean that's how it's supposed to be. I'm going to quote what I just wrote in another threat because it's apt:


You realize that this is the exact same line of thinking that led Miko to kill Shojo and fall, right? If she'd learned her lesson way back then, "that [she] even acknowledge that [she] could, in fact, be wrong" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), maybe she wouldn't have turned that shade of beige and then bisected by the gate shrapnel.

Lawful Good doesn't mean your judgment is always right, it doesn't mean you should think you're always right, it just means that you try to do what's right within an ethical and moral framework of orderliness and altruism.

[Wanton Soup]

Lawful Good doesn't mean your judgment is always right, it doesn't mean you should think you're always right, it just means that you try to do what's right within an ethical and moral framework of orderliness and altruism.

And it DOESN'T mean that you risk other people's lives or spend other people's money for what you THINK they should have.

All you risk is what YOU have. To risk the value of others is Evil.

[Linkavitch]

Nah, Haley's too nice to give Celia such a blow unless she was really, reall mad.

[hamishspence]

if so, any form of investment banking would be evil- banker is playing gambling game with other people's money.

Except, its with their permission.

Celia's justification (in her mind) would be: Since Haley snatched all the money she has on her at the moment from Grubwiggler, its not morally hers.

Since we can't give it back because ithe theft has been made retroactively Guild-authorized, its not a problem to encourage the Guild to put it to the least evil use possible.

[Wanton Soup]

Listen to WHAT? Haley's treating her like a child or a lesser being instead of anything approaching an equal. There's not sharing your life story and then there's not even telling the basic facts to give your companions a faint grasp of the situation.

Which is EXACTLY how Celia is treating everyone else.

Celia spent Haley's money. Celia hates violence even when it's the only avenue left. Celia feels bad about the deaths of people trying to enslave her, but doesn't offer to pay up. Celia makes decisions that Haley has decided to trust only to find out that Celia didn't think of anyone but herself.

NOTE: You complain Haley doesn't listen to Celia but her deciding to accept the agreement merely because Celia SAID it was good shows Haley is most DEFINITELY listening and thinking that Celia is effective. I don't see the reverse happening AT ALL.

Celia HAS been a good influence on this section of the Order and she has had made mistakes in the past no worse than the other two have managed.

However, this particular one is bigger than even Belkar's worst.

[hamishspence]

It could be that Celia is developing Moral Myopia.

Many justifications are given for the taking of someones property, and why its more moral for some targets.

"Its OK to steal to help other people who are needy"
"Its OK to steal to save the world"
"Its OK to steal to teach a person a lesson"
"Its OK to steal to survive"
"Its OK to steal to return someone something, when it was taken unfairly"

"Its OK to steal from the rich, they can afford it"
"Its OK to steal from the evil, whether they are law abiding or not"
"Its OK to steal from thieves/criminals- its not morally their money anyway"

Celia seems to have fallen into "its ok to steal from thieves" + "its ok to steal to save the world" + "its ok to steal to help the needy but evil"

[Optimystik]

hamish, I understand your need to play devil's advocate in most every discussion, but you have yet to answer this question.

If stealing from thieves is morally acceptable, why then is it acceptable to give the proceeds to other thieves?

[Grail]

If this were a real game, with real players and this situation arose.... I can tell you what Haley would tell Celia.


Sneak Attack!

[Ramidel]

Well, that's why Belkar agreed with Celia. I mean, if Haley shot Celia, Belkar would have an excuse to engage in PvP.

[Kish]

If this were a real game, with real players and this situation arose.... I can tell you what Haley would tell Celia.


Sneak Attack!
That depends on the group, but I think Haley's habitually stealing from the rest of the group would have made many groups fall apart back in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[Optimystik]

That depends on the group, but I think Haley's habitually stealing from the rest of the group would have made many groups fall apart back in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

Many perhaps, but not hers. Roy knew even then (#14, #29), and it clearly wasn't a big deal. I don't see any of the others getting worked up either, they simply aren't there for the money.

For the treasure dividing incident, every word she said was 100% true. It was a classic case of Roy outsmarting himself, much as he did later with the Oracle.

[hamishspence]

Not every situation. I think you might be thinking of somebody else.

As for "give the proceeds to other thieves" by the time everyone's been raised the guild as a whole will be much poorer. Unless Haley has a lot of her money in a bank account and is being expected to draw on that.

on "killing in self defence"- pretty much never evil in D&D, yet still there are occasions when net result is not so good.

Had the Order killed Miko just before Durkon managed to tell them she was a paladin- they wouldn't have committed an evil act, but it would still have been a death, and a case of misunderstanding, and Durkon at least might have felt obliged to raise her.

the Thieves Guild situation isn't quite them same, but Celia still feels that had there been negotiations from the start, all this death wouldn't have happened. So she feels obliged to suggest to Hank that he gets them raised.

[Optimystik]

Not every situation. I think you might be thinking of somebody else.

As for "give the proceeds to other thieves" by the time everyone's been raised the guild as a whole will be much poorer. Unless Haley has a lot of her money in a bank account and is being expected to draw on that.

It doesn't matter how much money they'll have after the resurrections, they're still planning to use Haley's money to pay for them. And even if Pete's stash will be enough to cover them all, they still want Haley's money. If thieves profiting from theft is as immoral as you claim, they should be raising the money some other way, like a bake sale for instance. :smallsigh:

Face it, by your logic they have no more right to Haley's ill-gotten gains than she does. Certainly Celia has no right to dispose of it.


the Thieves Guild situation isn't quite them same, but Celia still feels that had there been negotiations from the start, all this death wouldn't have happened. So she feels obliged to suggest to Hank that he gets them raised.

She can feel obliged all she wants to with her money.

[hamishspence]

Again- the "retroactive 50%" might have been non-negotiable.

If that was the first thing Hank laid down, Celia might have had to aim for just having them retrieve and rez roy.

Raising their fallen members benefits them anyway, so that would have been, for them, a minor concession.

Giving haley back her stolen money, would not have been minor.

the question is just how likely is it that they would have gotten out of Greysky alive if they hadn't come to some sort of deal.

[The Linker]

Celia's not really focusing on the aspect of "I'm taking a thief's money and giving it to other thieves." She just wants to get all the thieves who died resurrected. The fact that the money was ill-gotten is just a bonus -- she gets to use it for something noble.

She's not thinking "Take stolen money ---> Give to other thieves." She's thinking "Take stolen money ---> Save people's lives!"

(Of course, in this case it's not so much saving them as digging through the net taking all the soccer balls out while the referee's not looking, but hey!)


To the ACTUAL topic, I really think Haley should tell at LEAST Celia about why she wants the money. At the very least, once she does tell someone, she had beter give a dang good motivation for being so secretive about it. :smalltongue:

[Puppeteer]

Even if that money hadn't to be used for a just cause like rescuing a kidnapped father, if anybody DARED to use my money for whatever without my prior consent, I think I'd metaphorically eat his or her heart out with a tea spoon.

[hamishspence]

If a burglar gets burgled and his goods nicked, he's not going to be able to complain, even if he feels aggrieved.

And Ian Starshine wsn't kidnapped as far as we know, just given a message that made him rush off to western continent. the letter implies Lord Tyrinar locked him up for committing a crime.

Its like the Sandman in Spiderman 3, or Victor Fries in Batman and robin. Very just cause, theft is still theft.

[Avilan the Grey]

If a burglar gets burgled and his goods nicked, he's not going to be able to complain, even if he feels aggrieved.

What you mean, I think, is "he won't have the moral right to complain". Unless the guy that stole the money also cut his tounge out :smalltongue:

Besides, most Rogues would steal the money backe a second time, and punish the burglar.

[hamishspence]

in this case, however, Haley has choices, albeit painful ones- pay up, renegotiate for herself, or go on the run again. When a very small group is at war with a very big one, and the small group sues for terms, they can't be expected to be completely favourable.

[Optimystik]

Again- the "retroactive 50%" might have been non-negotiable.

If that was the first thing Hank laid down, Celia might have had to aim for just having them retrieve and rez roy.

Hank's back was against the wall. NOTHING should have been "non-negotiable." If Celia had any sense at all she would have seen that.


the question is just how likely is it that they would have gotten out of Greysky alive if they hadn't come to some sort of deal.

I'm going to go with "very."


If a burglar gets burgled and his goods nicked, he's not going to be able to complain, even if he feels aggrieved.

He's not able to complain to the authorities, you mean. There are other, less lawful recourses available to that burglar, and Haley as well.

Her "goods" also haven't been nicked, not yet anyway.


Its like the Sandman in Spiderman 3, or Victor Fries in Batman and robin. Very just cause, theft is still theft.

Which makes it unlawful, not evil. Celia needs to decide which is more important to her: Law, or Good.


in this case, however, Haley has choices, albeit painful ones- pay up, renegotiate for herself, or go on the run again. When a very small group is at war with a very big one, and the small group sues for terms, they can't be expected to be completely favourable.

Even when the small group all but annihilates the big one?

[hamishspence]

I thought that was what Celia was doing- choosing Good option (use the money to buy peace with the Guild and get Roy and others ressurrected) over the Lawful option (return it to Grubwiggler)

"all but annihilates"? They lost the force that stormed Pete's house- that is highly unlikely to be all of them.

classic example of "once its already been stolen we don't have to return it to its original owners as long as we get it away from the thief" Adventuring- keeping the stolen loot of a dragon for yourself after you have killed said thieving dragon.

[The Linker]

Quite honestly, once Belkar had woken up -- if they could just free Celia to deny the thieves any hostage-type situations -- I don't think the Thieves' guild could have done ANYTHING to stop them. If Bozzok was the toughest of the lot, and they owned the crap out him without breaking a sweat (once they were together), then...

Yeah. I think Hank's back was up against the wall. If they haven't annihilated the whole Thieves' guild yet, they would have if Hank kept 'em coming.

[Wanton Soup]

Celia's not really focusing on the aspect of "I'm taking a thief's money and giving it to other thieves." She just wants to get all the thieves who died resurrected. The fact that the money was ill-gotten is just a bonus -- she gets to use it for something noble.


Who

a) died trying to kill Haley
b) With Haley's money, not hers

Has Celia not now stolen the money from Haley? Yes. If she isn't giving it back to the people who lost it (and note: these ressurected thieves will go on and rob MORE PEOPLE, purely because Celia had them rezzed).

It doesn't add up as anything other than Celia wanting HER needs seen to and hang the rest.

[hamishspence]

seems reasonable. Celia and Haley have different views on acceptable thievery- Celia: "rob a thief" is more acceptable than "rob the law abiding"

Haley- "rob the rich/evil" is more acceptable than "rob the needy"
in Origin, she extorts "deputy leadership" out of the rest of the party in return for "a very generous promise not to loot their possessions in the middle of the night" And, a couple of panels later, she is seen trying to pick Belkar's pocket.

[Wanton Soup]

I thought that was what Celia was doing- choosing Good option (use the money to buy peace with the Guild and get Roy and others ressurrected) over the Lawful option (return it to Grubwiggler)

Well, why doesn't SHE use her money to do that? If taking away someone else's money to do good with it is A-OK, then what about Haley getting her dad (who was, from this current arc, a really decent bloke, albeit in a Thief class) free?

That's good.

And so Haley can legitimately take someone else's money (like all the people she's robbed) and Celia should be happy.

Yes?

No, because Celia wants them alive but doesn't want to face the consequences of it (poverty, increased thefts in the city, etc). So she makes Haley face them.

How nice of her.

[hamishspence]

different people, different conceptions of what constitutes a legitimate target. And as far as we know, Celia doesn't know about Haley's dad.

Nor is there any evidence that Haley confined her attentions to stealing from evil people.

the "heroes keeping the gold of thieves for themselves" thing- Treasure Island is a good example. The pirate gold wasn't theirs, but the merchants are happy to keep it.

[The Linker]

Who

a) died trying to kill Haley
b) With Haley's money, not hers

Has Celia not now stolen the money from Haley? Yes. If she isn't giving it back to the people who lost it (and note: these ressurected thieves will go on and rob MORE PEOPLE, purely because Celia had them rezzed).

It doesn't add up as anything other than Celia wanting HER needs seen to and hang the rest.

I'm only arguing her motivation. People earlier in the thread were wondering why she thought it was a good idea to take Haley's money and give it to other thieves, and I pointed out that she's just trying to resurrect people. Even if the resurrected people do go on to keep on robbing people, Celia would still think it was a good idea -- to her, no one deserves to die.

I'm not trying to defend her here! I'm just trying to explain and piece together her motivation.


Well, why doesn't SHE use her money to do that? If taking away someone else's money to do good with it is A-OK, then what about Haley getting her dad (who was, from this current arc, a really decent bloke, albeit in a Thief class) free?

Um, did you forget Celia has no idea about Haley's Dad? I really think Celia wouldn't have taken all her bail money if she had known.

[hamishspence]

question is, will this be a What the Hell Hero moment for Celia, or will the ressurrected thieves turn out to be extremely appreciative?

[Optimystik]

I thought that was what Celia was doing- choosing Good option (use the money to buy peace with the Guild and get Roy and others ressurrected) over the Lawful option (return it to Grubwiggler)

I see it the opposite way. Taking money from the thief because she doesn't deserve it while not caring about her reasons, or indeed without factoring in any action she's taken with her stolen belongings since acquiring them, is choosing Law over Good.


"all but annihilates"? They lost the force that stormed Pete's house- that is highly unlikely to be all of them.

It's the majority, certainly. Once Bozzok found her he'd only want enough thieves elsewhere to make sure Haley wasn't getting around him somehow.

And even if there are other thieves elsewhere, guess what? They wouldn't have had any idea Bozzok had been removed from the picture until the rest of the city did.


classic example of "once its already been stolen we don't have to return it to its original owners as long as we get it away from the thief" Adventuring- keeping the stolen loot of a dragon for yourself after you have killed said thieving dragon.

Yes, but those people usually keep the loot, not give it away to their attempted murderers.


different people, different conceptions of what constitutes a legitimate target. And as far as we know, Celia doesn't know about Haley's dad.

Nor is there any evidence that Haley confined her attentions to stealing from evil people.

There is no evidence that she hasn't either. I asked you to find me just one non-evil NPC she'd stolen or otherwise acquired loot from several posts back. The fact that she swindles the Order constantly is comedic, not malicious.

Given her alignment, she deserves the benefit of the doubt that she isn't robbing kindly priests and little old ladies.


the "heroes keeping the gold of thieves for themselves" thing- Treasure Island is a good example. The pirate gold wasn't theirs, but the merchants are happy to keep it.

"Keeping for themselves" is very, very different from "use to resurrect an evil organization and keep its doubly-evil leader in charge."

[hamishspence]

Aforementioned bank robbery she's Wanted for in Origin. (using it as a resume, and Roy saying "yes, but I'm not hiring for a bank robbery", suggests she's guilty)

when you rob a bank, you rob everyone who's got money in that bank.

again, the suggestion we get is that they are The Best of a Bad Lot.

Compassion for the Good or Neutral is par for the course in heroism.
Compassion for Evil seems fairly rare.

Celia has a heaping dose of Compassion for the Evil (minions of evil, in this case)
Unfortunately it appears this comes with a certain lack of compassion for Haley's thieving.

was Haley Evil until she left the Guild? Thieves Guilds tend to be potential allies of the more pragmatic fantasy heroes- even when the heroes are supposed to be law enforcement.

[Renegade Paladin]

I guess. But she's lawful good and it's her job to be like that. Lawful good (From what I know of it) always think their word to be superior even if both plans(or whatever) will come to the same conclusions. People think she does it because she's a ***** but it's not.
Ummm... Lawful good /= thinking you know everything. How on Earth did you come to that conclusion? :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

Aside from Miko and Eugene (neither of which are very exemplary) I'm not sure if there is a trend in that direction.

Lien- Staying Behind and refusing to run away (could have been to increase chances of the others getting away and coming back with reinforcements)

Roy- Does listen to others. Sometimes.

Hinjo- Listens to Haley quite well.

[Optimystik]

Aforementioned bank robbery she's Wanted for in Origin. (using it as a resume, and Roy saying "yes, but I'm not hiring for a bank robbery", suggests she's guilty)

when you rob a bank, you rob everyone who's got money in that bank.

again, the suggestion we get is that they are The Best of a Bad Lot.

By that logic Robin Hood was also evil, because robbing from rich barons means he's taking money from everyone that they levied taxes on. Again, what makes it a good act is what the money was later used for.

Not to mention, if that bank was in Greysky I doubt it had a single good-aligned customer.


Compassion for the Good or Neutral is par for the course in heroism.
Compassion for Evil seems fairly rare.

Celia has a heaping dose of Compassion for the Evil (minions of evil, in this case)
Unfortunately it appears this comes with a certain lack of compassion for Haley's thieving.

Compassion for your own assailants is rarer still, and nobody can be faulted for lacking it, under any system. Besides, it's not like she continued retaliating once she had the upper hand.


was Haley Evil until she left the Guild? Thieves Guilds tend to be potential allies of the more pragmatic fantasy heroes- even when the heroes are supposed to be law enforcement.

Was she sent to murder someone for leaving? Did she go? Following evil instructions is an evil act.

[[TS] Shadow]

I think the question here is "Even if Haley told Celia about her Dad, would she care?" I don't think so. Celia has a stick up her butt almost as much as Miko does, and I doubt she'd be willing to accept Haley's reasoning. Lawyers are meant to be impartial, so even if he is Haley's dad, Ian to Celia is a theif who got arrested, and Haley is a theif who stealing money from people to make his bail. To Celia, Ian deserves his punishment and the money that Haley stole could go to something more important: saving lives.

That's how Celia would most likely see the situation, if she knew about it. But for all we know, Ian might not have commited any crimes. Bozzok could have just wrote to the western continent and had Ian arrested, as it was implied. Celia still wouldn't care however, and that's why she ticks me off.

[gameinstructor]

I'm sorry to hit low hanging fruit that a whole page of posters deftly avoided.


Being a lawyer, she may think, "Your father should be imprisoned: taking things other people earned honestly."

Are you fully aware of what a lawyer does?

Give Rich some credit for actually pulling off a Lawful Good Lawyer. Just saying those words makes me laugh so hard my spleen bleeds.:smallamused:

[ericgrau]

Celia's already seen reasons why Haley's actions might be right in spite of the means that have been involved. She's clearly shown that she wishes to stick to her principles regardless of everything else. If Haley reveals personal details she'll only open herself up to more abuse, except it'll hit deeper this time. The topic would slide from major annoyance to major personal insult when Celia continues to stand her ground. Besides the damage done by that alone, much angrier words will fly from the mouths of both girls soon after. No thanks.

When I read the title I thought this was about how Haley should have a talk with Celia about what she's done, then follow through with more careful action around Celia in the future in the likely event that Celia doesn't listen (which she also notifies Celia of in advance). i.e., suspecting, investigating and responding to problems, perhaps even restraining Celia if/when necessary. But only after words are exhausted. That would have been better.

[Circe]

The biggest problem with the situation Hayley now finds herself in isn't that half of her money now goes to the Guild. It's that "You now retroactively owe the, 50% of everything you've ever stolen since you first left the Thieves' Guild."

Half of everything she ever stole.

This includes things that she stole and spent, or things that she doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0243.html) have with her now (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html). How would she be able to pay them half of what she stole if she doesn't still have access to everything she's stolen? And yes, perhaps they aren't aware of these instances now, but they have the entire town under their control. I'm sure they can find someone who can magick them up some information so that they know Hayley isn't lying to them about how much she has. I'm certain it's not the first time they would have to do that, if that's the case.

Hayley, in my opinion, should tell Celia this instead of having to reveal her father's situation, which Celia may or may not be able to sympathize with. If Hayley were to inform Celia of how much more they would have to steal in order to make up for everything that Hayley does not have, perhaps Celia would listen. If Celia acts as her Lawful Good nature dictates, she would feel that bettering their situation at the expense of what could be thousands of others' livelihoods is wrong and then try to solve things differently. This would keep Hayley's secret a secret, keep Hayley's money hers, and satisfy Celia's sense of do-goodery.

[EndlessWrath]

I think it really comes down to the idea that Haley is Chaotic good/neutral... and therefore doesn't have to abide by the contract that celia created. Haley never signed it in the first place anyways.

[The Linker]

The biggest problem with the situation Hayley now finds herself in isn't that half of her money now goes to the Guild. It's that "You now retroactively owe the, 50% of everything you've ever stolen since you first left the Thieves' Guild."

Half of everything she ever stole.

This includes things that she stole and spent, or things that she doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0243.html) have with her now (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html). How would she be able to pay them half of what she stole if she doesn't still have access to everything she's stolen? And yes, perhaps they aren't aware of these instances now, but they have the entire town under their control. I'm sure they can find someone who can magick them up some information so that they know Hayley isn't lying to them about how much she has. I'm certain it's not the first time they would have to do that, if that's the case.

Hayley, in my opinion, should tell Celia this instead of having to reveal her father's situation, which Celia may or may not be able to sympathize with. If Hayley were to inform Celia of how much more they would have to steal in order to make up for everything that Hayley does not have, perhaps Celia would listen. If Celia acts as her Lawful Good nature dictates, she would feel that bettering their situation at the expense of what could be thousands of others' livelihoods is wrong and then try to solve things differently. This would keep Hayley's secret a secret, keep Hayley's money hers, and satisfy Celia's sense of do-goodery.

These are good points. I had thought about how she doesn't have NEARLY half of everything she ever stole at this point, but I didn't make all those connections. :smallbiggrin:

[The Minx]

All you risk is what YOU have. To risk the value of others is Evil.

That is a pretty broad definition of evil. :smallsmile:

I agree that it is wrong, though.

[hamishspence]

What about investment banking? Admittedly, thats with consent.

[Wardog]

hamish, I understand your need to play devil's advocate in most every discussion, but you have yet to answer this question.

If stealing from thieves is morally acceptable, why then is it acceptable to give the proceeds to other thieves?



One argument (utilitarian?) might be that none of them have a right to the money, therefore it is moraly acceptible/appropriate to redistribute the money to achieve the best outcome.

(And to Celia, "best" would presumably be "saves lives and ensures a peaceful resolution to the conflict").

[Dalenthas]

Investment bankers don't risk other people's money, the people who hire them risk their own money by betting the investment banker is good at his job. So, no, nothing inherantly evil about that. Now if said investment banker embezzeled or otherwise cheated his clients out of money, then yeah, that'd be evil.

[Ehra]

Aren't they? They're hardly innocents, and every item she takes from them is still benefiting the group (e.g. stealing Belkar's healing potion and giving it to Elan).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html

So how did that benefit the group?


For the treasure dividing incident, every word she said was 100% true. It was a classic case of Roy outsmarting himself, much as he did later with the Oracle

It's also a classic case of Haley knowing all about her team mates' personality traits and taking full advantage of them to increase her own gains. Trying to act like she did nothing wrong here just shows how ridiculously biased you are towards the character and that you don't really care about who's actually in the right or wrong.

[Warren Dew]

That depends on the group, but I think Haley's habitually stealing from the rest of the group would have made many groups fall apart back in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

The reason this case is an exception is obvious:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html