[PrC] Paragon of Finesse

[Catharsis]

I'm somewhat underimpressed with the Duelist PrC, especially since the Swashbuckler base class appears to have more or less replaced it, and doesn't mesh well with it. Since I like the noble-rapier-fencer style, I decided to make a PrC for the specific purpose of giving a Swashbuckler a rewarding career option. Here it is:

Paragon of Finesse (http://www.cinga.ch/DnD/Paragon_of_Finesse.html)

Opinions? Over- or underpowered? Would you allow it in your campaign? Would you be tempted to play it? Any abilities that are missing or nonsensical?

-- Catharsis

[Halcyon_Dax]

Stamp of Approval!

Ive always liked this sort of character, but I agree that swashbuckler overshadows the duelist a bit.

Perhaps you could include a precice strike as one of the special abilities?

[Latronis]

Riposte:

I'd say you need to add something to this, either that it uses up an attack of oppurtunity for that round, or possibly that you can't make more attacks in the round then your normal number of attacks (including attacks for a High BAB if applicable with the signature weapon)

Also is the signature weapon a weapon type (such as a rapier) or a specific weapon?

[Fizban]

While I like it, I think lunge should be a bit delayed, otherwise I see similar builds dipping it, as dip unfriendly as it is. At level 2 I say, just to be contrary.

[ExHunterEmerald]

I'd recommend an ability to add dexterity to the signature weapon's damage.
Nice, but I'd think Dexterity would also make a better prereq stat than intelligence. Just me, though.

[Catharsis]

Thanks for the feedback!

Re damage: I wasn't too concerned about the Paragon's damage output... If you start with a Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4 build, you can have Insightful Strike and Weapon Specialization on each attack, and since those are hard numbers rather than dice, they do double in critical hits... which grow more and more common with the progression. Of course, it's not barbarian-style damage... I've never played beyond level 8, so I can't really gauge the damage output needed to be useful at high levels.

If you all agree that the build is underpowered, I can add a fourth level to the Surgical Strike progression that either adds one to the critical multiplier, or expands the crit range to four times its natural size. Or I could allow Weapon Specialization / Greater Weapon Specialization as bonus feats.

BTW, is the PrC underpowered just in comparison with other homebrew PrCs, or even with the core ones?


Re lunge on 2nd level: Yeah, why not, I can see the danger.


Re riposte: Well, I do declare the attacks you make as attacks of opportunity, so they count against your daily limit. With Combat Reflexes and a high Dex, that shouldn't be a problem. After all, your foe has to miss you first! Maybe this should work against all melee opponents rather than just one, otherwise you hardly ever get more than one counterattack per round, unless you fight kobolds.


Re weapon: It's a weapon type rather than an individual weapon. Maybe I should make that clearer.


Re abilities: I put the Int requirement there both for in-game reasons (it's a clever and tactical combat style, similar to Combat Expertise) and for balance (keeps away the Str/Dex maxed fighter builds). Since the PrC doesn't seem to be overpowered at all, I guess I can drop that prerequisite. For a Swashbuckler, the requirement is a non-issue, since he will want a high Int anyway to reap Insightful Strike damage.

Adding the Dex bonus to damage is probably overkill, since a Paragon of Finesse is going to max Dex shamelessly anyway.

[Latronis]

abilities based on AoO usually state that though.

I did velieve it was a weapon type, but they way you called it signature weapon would lead to confusion i believe, best to clear that up :P

Also i don't think giving weap spec to the signature weapon as a free feat is overkill

[Catharsis]

OK, I made some more changes, same URL (http://www.cinga.ch/DnD/Paragon_of_Finesse.html). The Surgical Strike now progresses in four rather than three steps, the Weapon Specialization feats are available through the special ability slots, and Lunge has been moved up to 2nd level to deter dippers. Also, I lowered the skill requirements, but added another required feat. It's now possible to branch into Paragon of Finesse after Swashbuckler lvl 6 (is that too early?).

I hope I haven't overcompensated and actually made the class too strong! I usually pride myself on staying on the conservative side of game balance with my homebrews.

[HellFencer]

Wow, this is a great class. My only concern, is that when you pick up the first level of surgical strike, your free Improved Critical feat could be wasted, if the character already picked it up. I'd suggest if they already have Imp. Crit., to simply add 1 to the crit range (after they've been doubled and tripled), that way it doesn't feel wasted.

[Latronis]

or some PrC's that offer free feats state that the characetr may select a new feat they meet the prereqs for if they already have the offered feat.

[Catharsis]

You can't buy Improved Critical until you have a BAB of +8. However, you can branch into Paragon of Finesse after lvl 6 and get Surgical Strike at lvl 7, one level early! Even if you go full rogue before joining the prestige class, you'll be lvl 9 when you get Surgical Strike. You don't have the opportunity to take Improved Critical unless you procrastinate joining the prestige class for a few more levels!

I have no concerns about giving out Surgical Strike before level 8, since it's restricted to a one-handed finesse weapon. No opportunity for powergaming there.

[Were-Sandwich]

Just a slight nipick, but PrCs generally dont have ability score requirement, just like they dont have class level requirements, directly at least. For instance, if you wanted to restrict a PrC to just fighters, you could make Weapon Spec a prerequisite, or for monks Flurry of Blows. Its in the 3.5 DMg somewhere in chapter 6.

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Just a slight nipick, but PrCs generally dont have ability score requirement, just like they dont have class level requirements, directly at least. For instance, if you wanted to restrict a PrC to just fighters, you could make Weapon Spec a prerequisite, or for monks Flurry of Blows. Its in the 3.5 DMg somewhere in chapter 6.

yeah, the requirements like that are generally done by feats that require said ability score to be of the appropriate level. I think it tis a kind of odd "rule", but if i ever feel the need to require an ability score for a PrC i make a feat, usually one that gives a slight bonus i was planning on the class giving, which the class then builds upon.

for example a class that requires dodge, requires a 13 DEX by default, (unless you get it as a bonus feat somehow i suppose) and the PrC might increase the dodge bonus or make it better or something.





I like the PrC though, nice work

[Catharsis]

Thanks for the pointer. I've dropped the Int requirement, especially since the Combat Expertise prerequisite already insists on Int 13. ;)

Also, I've filled a loophole that could have led some people to believe one could both lunge and take a 5-foot step in the same round... ::)