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Brigham
2009-01-14, 01:53 PM
Let me first say that I do not take my D&D very seriously. I really enjoy character development, both mechanical and narrative. I just don't read the books enough to port narrative ideas into the mechanic. That said, I was making a Swordmage the other night and was kind of disturbed at the numbers I was producing; AC 31; attack+17. Are there better mechanical advantages to which I am ignorant or is this as good as it gets?


22 point buy; level bonuses to Con and Int. Cha and Wis are interchangeable, and the lowest of the two with Dex (switching the 10 and the 9).

Githyanki Swordmage 11
STR 13, CON 20 , DEX 9, INT 22, WIS 14, CHA 10

HP 92
------------------------
Defenses
Init +6
AC 31
FORT 23
REF 24
WILL 22

+++Fort/Ref/Will benefit from +2 Amulet bonus+++

Attacks (+3 Longsword as implement)
Weapon: +17 (level+proficiency+INT+magic)
Implement: +14
Base Damage
1d8+9
------------------------

The 31 AC is achieved thus:
Level bonus: +5
Earthhide armor: +3 base (+1 FORT bonus also)
Magic: +3
Armor Specialize: +1 AC (and reflex); paragon feat
+++Armor Prof. (hide)
INT modifier +6
Swordmage Ward +3 (contingent bonus)
------------------------


I ask this because I just entered into an 11th level campaign (using a different character) and the highest AC was 26 or 27. The highest attack bonus was 14. This swordmage, also at level 11, spanks both of these stats mercilessly. Did my gaming group make poor characters or is the swordmage just that full of awesome-sauce?

Aoric
2009-01-14, 02:10 PM
That looks all kosher to me. I've recently been fiddling with swordmages as well - they benefit greatly from their reliance on INT, as the constant boosting of that stat brings up REF, AC, and their attack (especially with the intelligent blademaster feat)

However, what they have in AC is counteracted by what they lack in the damage department. They simply do not do that much damage when compared to the other defenders (or, at least, that much to a single enemy - they have decent multi-target attacks).

Artanis
2009-01-14, 02:10 PM
For the AC, the Swordmage is a Defender. It's supposed to have really high AC. How it stacks up to the rest of the party depends on what they're wearing, but 4 or 5 points isn't necessarily that bad.

For the weapon, level and proficiency alone are +8, with stats presumably bringing it up to at least +12 or +13. That means any weapon-users with a total +14 to-hit either have crappy stats, crappy level weapons, or both. Additionally, you shouldn't have a weapon with +4 on it: you're supposed to start with one item each of your level, your level +1, and your level -1, meaning your weapon should top out at a level 12 weapon, which would be +3, not +4. That brings you up to +16 (assuming you're up to 20 in your primary stat.

So basically, your AC is where it should be, your to-hit is 1 point higher than it should be, and your partymates have crappy to-hit.

Diarmuid
2009-01-14, 02:11 PM
Edit: NM - thought that said swordsage...

Yakk
2009-01-14, 02:46 PM
"+++Fort/Ref/Will benefit from +1 Amulet bonus+++"
You should have a +2 amulet by level 11.

You should have a level 12, 11, and 10 item, and gold equal to another level 10 item. Your weapon/armor should be the level 12 and 11 item, typically.

Either the level 10, or the gold, should be used for a +2 amulet of some kind.

---

A level 11 opponent attacking AC gets about a +15 to hit. This means they hit on a 16+ -- your character is very hard to hit when they target AC.

The downside is that once the attacker knows this, they can be tempted to ignore your mark. You are definitely a shielding swordmage -- so you soak the first 15 damage that the bad guy does.

Suppose the bad guy can either attack you, or an AC 23 robe wearer. 25% chance of hitting you, or 65% chance of hitting the cloth wearer for 15 less damage than average.

(D-15)*.65 = D*.25
.4 D = 9.75
D = 24.375
At 25 average damage per hit, the bad guy does more damage by ignoring your mark than by attacking you. This isn't that horrid a thing -- you did just reduce the damage the bad guy did by a bunch. :-)

...

In order to get a +14 attack bonus (with a weapon power), we have:
+5 level
+4 stat
+3 enchantment
+2 proficiency
= +14

+4 to a stat means at most a 19 in the stat -- which means you started off at level 1 with a 16 in that stat. And, on top of that, you are using an inaccurate weapon. This is possible, but that character wasn't optimized at all to hit things...

Aron Times
2009-01-14, 04:08 PM
Defenders protect other party members by keeping the enemy from attacking them, not by taking all the damage.

There are two parts to this role. First, the defender becomes a threat when his mark is ignored. Second, the defender should have high enough defenses to mitigate the damage caused by enemy aggro.

One of the biggest problems with the swordmage is that he doesn't deal a lot of damage. He gets lots of cool mobility and defensive powers, but overall, he's poor at dealing damage.

If you aren't enough of a threat to your enemy if ignored, and the enemy can't hit you anyway, the enemy will simply turn their attention to your allies. Thus, you fail at being a defender.

Artanis
2009-01-14, 04:15 PM
The thing about the Swordmage is that, in theory, it doesn't have to do a whole lot of damage if it makes attacking the other guys suck enough anyways. For instance, the Aegis of Shielding lets the Swordmage reduce (or potentially even nullify) the damage that a buddy takes, so an enemy may figure that it's better to wail on the Swordmage's armor than it is to smack the Wizard around for 1hp of damage.

In theory.

Brigham
2009-01-14, 04:37 PM
Thanks to each person replying. Apologies for the disorganization and any confusion.

Joseph_Silver:
That is very helpful to consider. Thanks.

Yak:
Fair play with the +2 amulet; I'll correct that in the OP. I hadn't purchased all items yet (I might not play this character anytime soon), but knew that the Armor and Weapon would both be +3 items.



Yak said:
And, on top of that, you are using an inaccurate weapon. This is possible, but that character wasn't optimized at all to hit things...


Fair enough also as to weapon selection. I had initially selected a Khopesh, but switched to Longsword at the suggestion of a friend. Do you have a more appropriate weapon in mind? Also, why is it bad for me to hit things? Thanks again for the critique.

Artanis:
Apologies for the confusion; I should have stated the bonuses for the weapon.

Weapon bonus as follows:
Proficiency +3
Magic +3
INT bonus +6
Level +5
Total +17

Aoric:
True to the damage component. 1d8+9 base damage is not at all impressive. Any ideas on feats/items to bring that damage up a little?

Artanis
2009-01-14, 05:01 PM
Yak:
Fair enough also as to weapon selection. I had initially selected a Khopesh, but switched to Longsword at the suggestion of a friend. Do you have a more appropriate weapon in mind? Also, why is it bad for me to hit things? Thanks again for the critique.

I believe he meant "you" as in "whoever has that +14 bonus", not you in particular. He was saying that whoever had that +14 had a ****ty to-hit.

Which reminds me, is that +14 guy (and the rest, for that matter), an actual weapon-user, or is he somebody like a Wizard who wouldn't use something with a proficiency bonus?




Artanis:
Apologies for the confusion; I should have stated the bonuses for the weapon.

Weapon bonus as follows:
Proficiency +3
Magic +3
INT bonus +6
Level +5
Total +17

Ah, in that case, it's right on. Even still, the bigger problem was the difference in your to-hit compared to the party's, rather than yours (supposedly) being a point off.




Aoric:
True to the damage component. 1d8+9 base damage is not at all impressive. Any ideas on feats/items to bring that damage up a little?
Basic attacks kinda suck no matter who you are. 1d8+stat is pretty much average.

Tehnar
2009-01-14, 06:50 PM
My fighter (PHB only) is level 4 currently, but lets see what he would look like at lvl 11:

STR 20+2+1=23
DEX 12+2+1=15
CON 13
INT 9
WIS 13
CHA 11

At lvl 11
For my 3 items, i would probably take +3 scale, +3 bastard sword and +2 amulet.


To hit:
+1 fighter weapon talent
+3 proficiency
+5 level
+6 STR
+3 magic
=
+18

AC:
+5 level
+13 (+3 wyrmscale )
+2 heavy shield
+1 scale specialization
=
31 AC

Fort
+5 level
+2 fighter
+6 STR
+2 amulet
+1 human
=
26


Refl
+5 level
+2 shield
+2 DEX
+2 amulet
+1 human
=
22

Will (ouch )
+5 level
+1 WIS
+2 amulet
+1 human
=
19

As to OPs original build, I think there is a slight discrepancy in the numbers.s

- I dont think hide specialization gives +1 to reflex
- assuming githynki give +2 con +2 int, you still need to have a CHA of 11, since you can start with one score set to 8. Which means that the stat array you posted is 23 point buy
- the swordmage from what I can tell looks pretty solidly built otherwise

Tengu_temp
2009-01-14, 06:59 PM
Let's compare a level 11 fighter, with the pit fighter paragon path - assuming 22 strength, at least 15 con and 15 dex, we have:

Attack bonus:
+5 levels
+3 longsword
+3 enchantment
+6 strength
+1 fighter
For a total of +18.

AC:
10 base
+5 levels
+10 Gith plate armor
+3 enchantment
+2 heavy shield
+1 armor specialization
+1 pit fighter
For a total of 32. If he gets lucky and finds an Agile Gith Plate Armor +3, his AC is 34 as long as he's not bloodied.

I'd say that your group is less optimized than you.

Brigham
2009-01-14, 07:31 PM
Well played with the Fighters. That's the comparison I was looking for.

As to the point buy, we're using an alternate rule whereby you can nick points by decreasing one of your set 10's. Good catch, Tehnar.

Mando Knight
2009-01-14, 09:16 PM
Armor Specialize: +1 AC (and reflex); paragon feat

Armor Specialization doesn't give you +1 Reflex. Only Shield Specialization does... which makes Shield Specialization better than Plate Specialization for Paladins using a shield and heavy blade or spear.

Brigham
2009-01-14, 10:24 PM
True it is, Mando. For some reason I was channeling Two-Weapon Defense when thinking of Armor Specialization.

Aoric
2009-01-15, 09:51 AM
Aoric:
True to the damage component. 1d8+9 base damage is not at all impressive. Any ideas on feats/items to bring that damage up a little?

There was a good thread on the SM over on the wotc boards - don't have a link for it now (at work). I'm still wrapping my head around many of the intricacies of 4e, and haven't made a character past level 8 yet. So, I'm not too steady with the character optimization thing yet.

In my builds, at least, I was focusing more on the assaulting swordmage (yeah, i know he/she is inherently worse then the shielding kind, at least according to some, but it seemed like fun to play). Anyway, I took proficiency: bastard sword and intelligent blademaster. Plus, i like that one can use a variety of encounter powers in place of the basic attack when you do that assault.

anyway, if i come up with any ideas, i'll let ya know.

Mando Knight
2009-01-15, 10:08 AM
In my builds, at least, I was focusing more on the assaulting swordmage (yeah, i know he/she is inherently worse then the shielding kind, at least according to some, but it seemed like fun to play). Anyway, I took proficiency: bastard sword and intelligent blademaster. Plus, i like that one can use a variety of encounter powers in place of the basic attack when you do that assault.

It's not really all that bad, IIRC. The Assault Swordmage can, when used properly, teleport into a flanking position for the basic attack, and Intelligent Blademaster means that he'll have a pretty decent basic attack. Some of the powers aren't all that optimized (mostly elements, really... but that can be fixed with a Frost Weapon or Sunblade...), but the Genasi Assault Swordmage isn't something to sneeze at... especially since they qualify for Warlord Multiclassing.

Tengu_temp
2009-01-15, 10:32 AM
What I heard is the opposite - that Assault swordmages are actually better than Shielding ones, because they threaten opponents in more direct way, thus resulting in a better defender.

Artanis
2009-01-15, 12:09 PM
I've heard it both ways, but then, I'm no optimizer, so I suck at figuring it out for myself :smallredface:.

In favor of the Assault Swordmage, I've heard that basically, it works on pretty much the same principle as the other Defenders: attack my buddy, get whacked for X damage, where X is pretty much the same between the three. Also, the Shielding Swordmage tends to get outscaled by enemy damage in later levels. In favor of the Shielding Swordmage, it can utterly cripple the enemy's ability to do damage at lower levels ("by '8 damage' you mean 'nada', right?"), has slightly less MAD, and doesn't try to do what the Swordmage is terrible at, namely hurting things.

But then, like I said, that's just what I've heard.

Aoric
2009-01-15, 02:53 PM
Excellent! - you guys are making me feel better about really really wanting to make up a assault swordmage. The AS can be a bit MAD, especially if one wants to meet the prereqs for the heavy blade feats, which subsequently leads to a lower then desired Con.. which will hopefully be counteracted by (bringing it back to the OP) his/her excellent AC.

Tengu_temp
2009-01-15, 03:03 PM
I'd say that Shielding swordmages are more MAD than Assault ones - an ideal swordmage needs enough strength and dexterity to qualify for heavy blade feats, enough constitution for armor specialization, and as much int as he can get (in general, starting with less than 16 of the stat that lets you hit stuff and not upgrading it whenever you can is a huge mistake). Assault swordmages meet those prerequesites easier.

On a slightly unrelated note, I feel that no matter what kind of swordmage you are, the best weapon for you is the bastard sword - the 1 damage per [w] on average that fullblade grants is not worth losing 2 AC.